The Legacy of Relational Trauma in NPD
Narcissistic individuals are often hypersensitive to feeling criticized, rejected, or humiliated. In this episode, Dr. Ettensohn traces the roots of interpersonal hypersensitivity in narcissism, giving special focus to a particular constellation of relational trauma thought to contribute to NPD. In addressing these issues, he discusses the here-and-now strategy of pairing self-compassion with personal responsibility.
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References:
Ettensohn, M. D. (2013). The relational roots of narcissism: Exploring relationships between attachment style, acceptance by parents and peers, and measures of grandiose and vulnerable narcissism. Dissertation Abstracts International: Section B: The Sciences and Engineering, 73(10-B(E)).
Music: www.bensound.com
#npd #narcissism #mentalhealth #mentalhealthawareness #psychology #healing #relationaltrauma #trauma #traumahealing #psychologist
I will remove comments that are abusive to any individual (including myself) or population. This includes comments that are abusive toward pwNPD.
Any rejection, real or imagined, is physically painful, induces G.I. disturbances, makes my heart race, and clouds all ability to think. I acutely remember every negative interaction I've ever had and sometimes they pop into my head with the most inexplicable triggers - I can be pacing around the house for over an hour audibly cursing to myself, trying to get these forced introjects to piss off. Whole weeks can be ruined by one unfavorable comment. My greatest dilemma is my innocence; declaring it, denying it, defending it, satiring it, etc. I've become lawyerly and precise in my language through the years. I firmly believe that consensus on the truth is decided by allegiance, charisma, and reputation - evidence be damned, because it doesn't always entertain the public's craving for "blood-sport". World history, the news, social media, what have you... it all supports this view! Also, my interests were treated with annoyance ("this crap again?") and likewise myself. Yes, being rejected feels like a big scary adult intimidating little ol' 6-year-old me. I have Third Reich opinions of school bullies and internet trolls. Physical pain is also a narcissistic injury to me, because expression of pain was punished severely - I get paranoid and irritable for several hours afterward. The issue with giving others an explanation of trauma is, everyone is assumed to be sadistic or aggressively dismissive - could be a projection on my part - and I can't make myself a target to a species of rough-n-tumble predators by exposing a raw nerve like that. I just hate people, right down to the core. Mercifully, we can all cordially interact with each other on a basis of persona.
I feel so sorry for you and your feelings, sincerely (in a good way)
So hard to feel compassion when they trample all over your life without impunity. I wish I would’ve had this information at the beginning, it would’ve made a world of difference. I cannot survive any more of this.
Did you get out? If so, do you think he may come after you? Change your devices/factory reset them, change your routine. I may never fully recover from my current injuries, and he's come millimeters from paralysing or killing me in his rage. If you aren't out GET OUT. HE WILL NOT CHANGE. He may feel genuine remorse, turn on his cognitive empathy & seem like the sweet person you fell in love with-but that WILL NOT LAST. If he isn't destroying you physically he will destroy you mentally. If you have no kids, what material crap are you attached to? Stage important stuff different places so you can grab it & GO. If you do have kids, even if they aren't being physically hurt their psyche is being destroyed and they could end up with this disorder too. LEAVE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. GRAB YOUR STUFF & RING A TAXI, WALK TO A NEIGHBORS, RING THE POLICE IF YOU HAVE TO-JUST GET OUT!
This is so sad and unfair. I don’t know if I have NPD but I relate to this on every level and wonder what the answers should be. Nobody knows how to help and I don’t know how to help myself. It’s hell.
Your investment in looking for information about how to better understand and help yourself is admirable; and so is your voicing your compassion for the condition more broadly. I am in a similar spot, don’t give up, and have compassion for yourself. Good luck brother.
I understand you completely, i hope you’re better now! :)
The very facf that you ask seems to answer your question .you are NOT a narc! In my humble and learned opinion..love and take a deep dive but believe in yourself
🙏🏻
😢🙏🏼
This makes so much sense. This is the very scenario that happened to my ex husband. He told me he won an art award and his mother instead of giving him praise she set a brownie or cookie pan on top of it. He told me that my tears made him angry. It made him feel like a monster and that he fell in love with a girl at work because she smiled at him. He lacked empathy, and he was only concerned with feeling like a winner.
Mine also got angry by my tears. He lacked empathy and also stated he was concerned with winning.
Your podcasts are the best thing I have listened to on this subject. I connect with it deeply, which is both threatening to me and soothing at the same time.
Human psychology is often a collection of paradoxes, conflicts, and contradictions. I once had a professor who would say “the wish is the fear.” I’ve always found that saying helpful when thinking about internal experience. Thanks for watching. :)
Welcome back! Glad you posted this. I'm kinda taken back, I didn't realize that other people stopped being as sensitive to criticism as they grew older. I just thought that they got better at hiding/handling it than me. I remember once in elementary school I was accused of calling a girl fat. I didn't, but that didn't matter. One of my teachers said she was disgusted and couldn't even look at me. To this day I still catch myself fantasizing about revenge or saying insulting and cruel things to her. I guess that assumption is why my first response when I feel hurt is to want to attack their insecurities. I guess I want them to feel like I did. Hm, something to think about. Keep up the good work!
Thanks! Those early memories of social rejection never seem to lose their punch.
Perhaps you two could do a collab sometime? I think it would make for a very interesting and educational episode (and promote both of your extraordinary channels, as an aside 😁). Y'all keep up your good work!
Just come across your channel, and ordered your book yesterday. I've been learning about NPD the last couple of years and so much on the subject seems out of balance, very black and white. Your different fairer way of thinking about the subject is very refreshing and so much more positive overall. Thank you! ❤❤🇬🇧🇬🇧😊😊
What's the name of his bed?
@amandajohnson-williams I totally agree with you and hope Dr Ettensohn will have time to do more videos in the future! It's extremely sad that he receives abuse for what supposedly empathetic people perceive as "siding with" highly narcissistic ones, whereas I view it as an explanation for their behaviour. Mind you, I can understand the anger due to the immense harm that is often caused by them, or those in the sociopathic and psychopathic realm, which happened to me throughout my childhood, then beyond. I've even lost a lot of my compassion for exes and others, yet still understand that they didn't purposefully take this on as children in order to create havoc for everyone as adults. ❤
@@brandyhuffman8672Did you mean the name of his book? I'm thinking that you might've found out by now by googling it, if that's the case, or another way. 😊
Flip side of my previous post: I will stand up for some of the other KZhead creators (not all… some are hacks) who focus on those receiving abuse from narcissists. It’s an incredibly isolating experience and hearing someone else articulate your experience is so so so validating and necessary. It does go to the point of demonizing (almost literally) but understand that it’s coming from a place of self love not other hate.
This content is so, so, so well expressed and thought provoking. I have listened to a tremendous amount of KZhead NPD content (I’ve got a PhD from KZhead U now) and this is distinctive. I’m in the middle of a divorce from my partner of 17 years who I strongly believe has NPD or is at least well down the spectrum. I was disoriented for the first 14 years and depressed for the past three at the realization that the behavior was not likely to change. I take your point that it’s not true to say it CANT change but it is true to say that I’m not in a position to change it. I truly hope my soon to be ex is one of the lucky few who decide to do the work. I have quite honestly lost any love for her as a person but she’s the mother of my two wonderful innocent children who don’t never chose any of this when they were born. The damage an unaware narcissist can do is staggering. I commend all who are following this channel as part of a journey to right themselves. I can only imagine how difficult that work is but I can assure you it’s worth it
I love your videos, they bring me peace wss married to a narcissist for 28yrs, the hurt and pain i try to understand on daily basis, it's such a SAD DISORDER and affects soooo many people and families. Thank you so much for showing me what this condition really is like.
I'm surprised you're not bitter like so many in these long term relationships. I don't run into too many that find that place of peace and being able to have compassion for the person again. We really have to distance from this compassion, because they can hurt us badly w/ it. doesn't matter if they don't mean to, it's still often essential to get way.
I have moderate intellectual disability so being hated on is very real. I want to be a good person which is denied. Thank you for the nice video. Hungry so I will see the rest later but will probably forget as usual.
This is the greatest discovery on KZhead for a long time!! Thank you for your professional, humanistic, down to earth exposure!!
❤️
Truly!
Thank you so much for this helpful, compassionate and empowering information. Getting ourselves out of a victim mindset, whether a narcissist or partner of one is the most empowering first step.
Thank you once again 😍 Wow there's just so many emotional traumas in my childhood I struggle to finding the root in these, 'cause I felt misunderstood almost EVERYWHERE (I've got ADHD hyperactive type, and I was a noisy invasive girl) at home, most of my family, in school.. so where to begin.. I've been praticing yoga and mindfullness for almost three years now so I don't have the need for revenge any more.. and taking more responsibility for my own actions... however I can't control the need for adjusting myself to others needs not showing others who I am - the cause: a combination of fear of rejection, but also to let people inside wondering when they are going to leave but I've been doing this so much to a point when I forgot who I was..
Could you please make advice on what to do if a narcissistic parent explicitly asked if he's doing something better? Like, "I'm making better cake than in a shop, ain't I?" How should I respond? I'm feeling like he's making me his supply and if I don't give him admiration and adulation, he devalues me and belittles me
THANK YOU, LORD, FOR CONFIRMATION ... thank you, sir, for this encouragement that i'm NOT supposed to run in the other direction!
Thank you for this help for those who suffer. This is deeper than most want to delve, but it’s so true..
Thanks
So well explained!!!
You explain it really well. Thank you so much for all the work that you do. I was definitely raised by a covert narcissistic mother (from my own research) and I have always had a deep fear that I shared her similarities as I often mirrored her to cope with her. I started doing incessant inner work in 2020 and thought I was doing a good job since I had the willingness and let myself be accountable to the role I played in my own and other peoples suffering, then I got into a relationship. Long story short this relationship was fast paced and triggered me and made me competent disregulated and I was codependent and paranoid and controlling and had bouts of rage etc. I hurt this person and I feel terrible and i definitely acted like a narc. The tables turned on me and I am completely lost bec I thought this was empathetic but I guess I just never had the opportunities to show my narcissistic side
This is the most insightful video I've seen about this aspect of Narcissism...so penetrating ..Thank You..!
You are so welcome
You have helped me so much
Thank you for letting me know. It means a lot to me to know that people feel helped by my videos.
Thank you xx
Thank you for this, Heal. It is so validating and helpful. However, blaming and grieving - 7 bullet journals worth, were the start of my healing. These expelled a lot of my rage and pain.
Why does my ex narc look happeir and exibit this boss like alltitude whenever she hurt's me emotionally and i dont retailate ?
That’s very intense. You survived.
Thank you for posting this
Thanks for listening.
would you say the difference between AvPD and NPD is just the coping mechanism? Avoidance vs. Aggression? Because that's what It sounds like
@Mr Cheez it ミスター・チーズ・イット What is the criteria for Avoidant Personality disorder, like the cheatsheet version? I have a friend I suspect of it. She has schizo affective disorder too. We're not talking at this time, because she won't talk when an issue arises. She'd rather do a 10 year fade and blame anyone else. Known her since I was 18, but I'm about done because I don't trust her as anything more than a surface acquaintance. We can be close, then, fade.
That you !!!
If a person is actually reexperiencing trauma, then in what sense is there ”wide grey area between slight oversensitivity and full-on reexperiencing social trauma?” Are they reexperiencing trauma, or are they just impacted by the past, just like all of us in all areas? What you describe is my brother in a nutshell. I ended up empathetic, whole. He is divided, 14:02, angry. All efforts to help him though kindness evoke anger. He is not a bad person. But my efforts to help him through showing that he can chose don’t do anything. What is one to do?
Thank you!!! Excelent.
Glad it was helpful!
"Nobody is responsible for making you feel a certain way" - this and many other things can be easily spoken by the narcissist in defense of his actions hurting another person. My narc often logically stumps me in this manner. Narcissists also don't "intend to hurt", but people around them are routinely and often badly hurt by them. How do you get around this paradox?
While it’s true that no one is responsible for your feelings, we are each responsible for our actions and their consequences. It is easy to use “nobody is responsible for your feelings” as a dismissive dodge to avoid accountability for harming someone emotionally. The fact is that if we want to have mutually satisfying relationships, we need to be concerned about the impact of our actions on other people. Each of us can choose whether or not to heed that mandate, and we reap the consequences of those choices eventually. Being dismissive of someone’s feelings eventually earns that person’s hatred and resentment. It’s not a “get out of jail free” card…it’s a “this person will eventually despise you” card. You, also, have a choice. You can choose whether to continue in a relationship with someone whose behavior is hurtful and who doesn’t communicate care or concern about your feelings. If it is a relationship you can’t leave or don’t want to leave, then you can choose how much you share, how close you allow yourself to be, etc. We always have choices, and those choices always have consequences. Thanks for watching.
👏 brilliant thank you for making these videos please continue
Thank you, I will
My ex needs to hear this but I had to leave for my safety and my mental well-being.
I'm sorry that happened to you.
I had to leave too. For my safety & sanity. The behaviour was intolerable. No help was accepted or wanted. So sad. Im well now.
Thank you! This answers some questions I had, and confirms some conclusions I've come to. I don't understand though why pwCluster Bs who experienced (relational) trauma don't automatically fall under C/ PTSD, especially since the trauma is being re-lived over and over again in adulthood as well.
@@anonimous7099 Yeah, there was talk (in 2011, I think?) about the exclusion of NPD from the DSM-5, but it was retained. And the DSM-5-TR (March 2022) hasn't brought any changes in that respect either. I'm guessing it'll be a long time before we'll see any modifications in the US in regard to Cluster Bs...
@@anonimous7099I'm feeling extremely relieved about knowing this is happening in a few countries, which is a start towards all of them, including New Zealand and Australia! I keep saying that it's usually the case with highly narcissistic individuals as well when people state that the ones at the other end of the spectrum often have complex trauma issues (I don't use the disorder word) and the other extreme, including not having boundaries etc, isn't healthy either. 😊
Thank you doctor For creating space for us
Much of this stems from this idea that we are done parenting at age 18 as if our children are now automatically prepared for the real world when they are not. There is an unhealthy and unrealistic expectation that once our children are done highschool, normally age 18, that they are adults & our jobs as parents is done. This couldn't be further from the truth. It's my understanding that the human brain isn't even fully developed until about age 25 so that would seem to be a more reasonable time to shoot for with regards to preparing them for the real world. It happened to our parents and it happened to us & is now happening to our own children as we mistakenly think they should some how be able to fend for themselves when in reality they are not properly prepared for it all. Therein lays all the resentment that builds over the years. Expectations not being met on both fronts. The pre-mature transition into adulthood is traumatic in itself. IMHO My own Mother landed on her parents doorstep at age 26 with 4 children in hand and unprepared for the World and had to go back to school for another 2 years in order to do so. She was one of the lucky ones that had loving parents who supported her doing so but failed to do the very same thing for me when it came time to step up and help one of her own children to do the same thing and that was without my having children at the time. Quite the example of a double standard in my case and of course it instilled resentment into me, and threw me to the wolves. Pointing this out only led to me being called abusive which is just pure nonsense.
Good podcasts.
Thanks!
Amazingly good information.
Glad it was helpful!
Hi Mark. I love what you are doing . One thing I am curious about is you mention blaming is not good. In my opinion blaming the people who hurt us can help us re own our anger. Was wondering if you could comment on this? Thank you for making these videos as I am sure they are helping many
Thanks for watching. I think blame and anger are points along the path to healing, but they aren’t destinations.
@@healnpd agree. Thank you
Beautiful.
It feels unfair that we can’t have loved ones try to adjust what they say to us if they really care about us, wouldn’t it be fair for someone with such deep and complex relational wounds to get a break? They didn’t ask for their sensitivity, and it feels unfair that people with it have to make adjustments to fit into a society that has more privilege or at least has it easier in the sense that they may be less sensitive and not be affected as much by relational issues. Shouldn’t there be more support and acknowledgment of someone’s sensitivity for those hurting in order for that to create a mutual compassionate relationship? And if someone can’t do that, isn’t it better for this person to choose friends or supportive people on their lives who can honor that sensitivity?
"Others are not responsible for your sensitivity, you are. If you try to hold your loved ones accountable for tiptoeing around you, all you'll succeed in doing is driving them away". Yikes, yeah, hard to hear. Needed though. I'm pretty sure I don't have NPD. Was at the receiving end of it from my ex of 10 years though. Stilling having a tough time, but getting quite a bit better.
Why emote, when there is reserved punishment for being emotional ?
I'm pretty sure my ex has NPD and he did not at all have a traumatic childhood. It was on the storybook side w/ really decent Christian parents that had strong but not implacable or unreasonable boundaries. They weren't abusive. His mother wasn't even overly permissive, but she did favour him, still calling him her favourite into middle age, when were were together 10 years. She called him her miracle baby, because he was born over 10 years apart from all his other 4 siblings, when she thought she wouldn't have more kids. i suspect this is where it arose from. He had no sexual abuse outside the family either and nothing traumatic he ever talked about. He did have and admit marked lack of empathy later in our relationship. Given to cheating and in a very cold and calculating manner. Lies were chronic at the end and gaslighting. He blamed all his exes and remained bitter. He admits now he thinks he can't maintain a longterm relationship and his impulse control is very poor.
Relational trauma is different than the sort of trauma with which most people are familiar. It is often subtle, chronic, and the worst damage can be done during the first few years of life. It doesn’t have to ‘look like’ trauma.
@@healnpd It seems like in more sensitive people trauma is subjective. Maybe not knowing how to set boundaries w/ her favourite and having so much more time to dote on him. Coupled w/ feeling alienated from being raised more like a single child, w/ his siblings have more together and bonded memories of being raised together. These are just my guesses. If he has NPD, he'd be lower on the spectrum to what you sometimes describe. We're split 6 mths and I'm not looking for false hope for us, but is there a sensitive way to bring up that I think this could be his issue?
I think the best approach is to get buy-in from the person about the problems they experience. Talk about self-esteem issues, difficulty trusting, stuff like that. If you can get buy-in around that stuff, then it lays the foundation to ease into giving those issues a proper name.
@@healnpd If he has difficulty trusting, he's never shown it, but self esteem and need for validation, yes. What has led me to believe degrees of NPD are things he admitted when the cheating started the last 2 yrs. He admitted to feeling entitled because he wasn't getting the attention he wanted. He knew it was selfish, but did it anyway. Lying is against his Christian values, but he did lots of that. He didn't admit to gaslighting, but did it. Because I knew him, I could see he was compulsive and went against his word when he would feel shame that he did. He admitted to deep shame, but that he couldn't show most of the time. He seemed a monster to me for awhile when I had no label. It wasn't until months after I got out that I stumbled on some self aware narcissist channels, that didn't demonize like most do, that things fell into place, because there were so many echoes to what he had admitted. I have an instinct that he wants answers and struggles w/ why he goes so against his values and it kills him he has let down his parent's values esp. I know he'll be pretty resistant to a narcissist label and all I could do is explain a bit it's not like the movie version.
@@dinahn6955 It's very hard to know what caused it. I'm also not qualified to know if he has actual NPD. I can only suspect there's some higher than normal level of narcissism from what I've seen, that wasn't there in past relationships. It's done for over a year, and I'm trying to heal from the cheating and lying damage that was done. That's all I know for sure.
Very interesting channel. Listening & learning. Thank you.
Amazing thank you very dialectic
At last! A truly healing voice..!! Thank you
Can parentification/emotional incest cause npd?
Absolutely. He discussed that kind of thing in Another of his videos / podcasts. It's essentially a variation of the same old problem - a caregiver putting a child in a role or position for the benefit of the parent. The child gets his / her only source of validation and love if they play out that role.
@MsMirror I want to validate the above person's reply by letting you know that it certainly does have that effect and most people I've known over the years, or still know, who are highly narcissistic, or worse, were sexually abused as children, hence why it's difficult not to conclude that it's related! It happened to me while growing up in New Zealand and I'll leave out the graphic details, but will mention that I've ended up too far along the other end of the spectrum since other factors are usually involved. I did drink a lot and smoked cigarettes from a young age for many years, then got into other drugs as a way of coping with the pain though, which is extremely common for survivors. ❤
Great insight.
You're like the bar advocate lawyer who defends the people no one else will defend. I admire that. But at the end of the day, you're advocating for people who gleefully ruin lives and derive supply and satisfaction from it. I still admire that. I couldn't do it.
@mrsherwood2599 - There is a lot of confusion regarding this disorder. From the way it is commonly portrayed on KZhead and elsewhere, it might very well seem that I am speaking compassionately about the very *worst* people imaginable. The disorder varies tremendously in its presentations. A very small minority fit the popular image of someone “gleefully ruining lives.” The narcissism boogeyman looms large over the popular psyche, but that is not the way this disorder commonly presents. In my experience, it is more common to encounter pathological narcissism in the form of empty depression, unstable self-esteem, fragile self-image, and even suicidality. I’ve worked with too many people with this disorder who are chronically on the brink of ending their own lives, who feel absolutely hated by everyone around them, and who can’t find a shred of sustainable, realistic, positive self-regard. It really is a form of misery. And no, these aren’t people who are gleefully ruining lives. Most people are unaware of the significant diagnostic controversies surrounding this disorder, the widespread confusion about pathological narcissism even among licensed clinicians, the competing theoretical models, or the revolution in narcissism research over the last 15-20 years that has absolutely upended common ideas about the disorder. Look at my two-part series “What is Narcissism?” for an overview. Perhaps most importantly, most people have no idea just how *confused* and confusing the terminology can be. Two trained professionals can use the word ‘narcissist’ and mean very different things. The cultural, scientific, and clinical discourse around this disorder is a modern Tower of Babel.
In life, I just thought people were in a variety of personalities. Like radio stations. So when my folks said we were bad kids. That meant forever. Those words are implicit i can’t explain it. I hate life. I hate life a lot. I hate what my folks did to us kids. Every one is dead but me. And my mother. She won.
I don't have NPD, but that was very helpful for me too ❤
The mother of my partner was exactly like that: nothing was ever good enough, effort alone didn't count. He is so hard and brutal towards himself, when he hasn't reached his goals, it's heartbreaking, he is like: 'I'm fat', I'm a loser', without flinching. No empathy or compassion or understanding for himself and often for others 😢.
Im an empath, like a strong one, i try not to step on Ants if i can avoid it 😂. I have always thought that the brains plasticity can solve all self issues and i can understand the childhood traumas that follow us the whole life... I come from a very difficult family, where crimes against humanity were and are still very comun... but because i know the history of the intervinients, i can understand why they are what they are... After watching many videos about mental health issues and gone through hate till understanding, i have now reached a point, where i am looking for the treatment... You channel is the best up to this point, thank you ❤. For me NPDs are perverted children, where love means Pain and Pain means Love, if that makes sense??? Also they are children, that never learned how to play for the sake of it, entertainment. ❤ I find monopoly the worst game in the word, should be banned 😂🎉
After listening with great interest to several of your excellent videos discussions on this subject, I want to tell you that as a survivor of narcissistic abuse, my father was a psychiatrist who was a diagnosed narcissist. Yes, they gave him a degree in psychiatry even as a narcissist. His intention was to become a psychoanalyst but bowed out due to his narcissism. (Hmm, does that make you shake your head? What is wrong with this picture?) Anyway, listening to your sympathy for the devil is very frustrating. Yes, narcissists are pitiful but evil exists, and spiritual evil is discerned spiritually. I think you are foolish and naive to ignore the preternatural reality of life, the reality of sin and the supernatural reality of life. But that’s your choice. I’m 76 yo now and the Word of God, the Bible and the person of the Holy Spirit healed me. My father established a narcissistic family cult. I’m the oldest of 9 children. The others are his flying monkeys who I have no contact with. I’m free and they are forgiven. Thank God, not psychiatry.
Can you add a transcription of this? I can’t get into it because of your voice sorry
You can switch captions on and switch the sound off. Or buy his book.
I find his voice super soothing. We are all so different!
@@alyonavam9040 Me too. Great voice.
No please, no thank, just demanding... you might not like the Font, any preference? 😂