Stephen Shoemaker: Issues with Carbon Dating, the Science of Memorization, and Creating the Qur'an
In this video I have a discussion with Professor Stephen J. Shoemaker about the reliability of carbon dating for dating Qur’an manuscripts, the critical approach to how texts get “standardized”, and the question of how scholars should understand the traditions that the Qur’an was memorized orally prior to its textual standardization.
Professor Shoemaker is Professor of History of Christianity in the University of Oregon’s Department of Religious Studies. He obtained his Ph.D. from Duke University in 1997 and teaches courses on the Christian traditions. His primary interests lie in the ancient and early medieval Christian traditions, and more specifically in early Byzantine and Near Eastern Christianity. His research focuses on early devotion to the Virgin Mary, Christian apocryphal literature, and the relations between Near Eastern Christianity and formative Islam.
I hope that you enjoy this discussion! Please remember to like the video and subscribe to the channel to see more content like this!
Dr. Reynolds, I have been watching most every video on this channel lately and wanted to thank you for making this content free to the public. Quranic and biblical scholarship is beyond fascinating and learning about this has been a wonderful outlet that has even helped me with my depression. I hope you have a great day and can't wait to watch this and more videos. Thank you.
Excuse me, Professor Stephen Shoemaker, is he a Roman Catholic or an Evangelical? thanks for your reply 
@@cruzadodorado4440ey, I've only read one of his books but it's pretty much blasphemous again the Bible saying how distorted the teachers of Jesus and followers became in a short period of time (as well of traditional Islam of course as mentioned here). So I would assume he's an atheist.
@@cdo...49283 Thank you very much bro, for your contribution.
@@cruzadodorado4440 No problem, wishing you well bro :)
00:00 Introduction 02:46 Uniqueness about early Islamic studies, protectionist?? 07:31 Why the critical study on Quran history? 11:56 Carbon dating of Quran manuscripts 19:56 Birmingham folio dating 21:24 Tuebingen manuscript dating 25:16 What about the Uthmanic standardization of the Quran? Did Abd al Malik do this?? 29:44 Editing of the Quran by Abd al Malik 32:49 Was pre-Islamic culture literate to produce written accounts in Muhammad’s Arabia? 43:10 What is the connection of Quran to the story of Mary under the palm tree with Jesus?? 54:28 Did Arabs have a greater ability of memorization?? Science of memorization?? Thank you for this discussion! Please let me know if I have made any mistake in the timeline.
you're a hero
An honest and informative interview. Thank you very much Dr Reynolds. I downloaded the free Kindle version of “Creating the Qur’an”. Thank you Dr Shoemaker for making the book free to the public. Looking forward to more interviews with Dr Shoemaker and hopefully Dr Guillaume Dye.
This interview was amazing but also tantalizingly short. Please have him on again if at all possible
The thesis mentioned is Fedeli, Alba (2015). Early Qur'ānic manuscripts, their text, and the Alphonse Mingana papers held in the Department of Special Collections of the University of Birmingham
@@notanemoprog And the dating is as good as can be expected. 😁
i agree
Thank God I found this KZhead channel.🙏🏼
Thank you to pointing out importance of evaluating early Shia tradition.
Yes but Shia tradition doesn’t support his view. The shia claim the Quran was collected before Uthman, so even earlier than what claims. He is just throwing anything out there to see if it will stick, because he can’t defend his hypothesis
Dr Reynolds, please consider having longer videos. I think you are afraid that longform interviews (2-3 hours) would bore the audience, but I can assure you it won't. Frankly one hour is far too short for stuff like this!
Great interview. Stephen is a great scholar with no BS.
Yep. Just a straight shooter, with no Muslim apologetic nonsense masquerading as "objectivity" that we get from some cowards in the field
@@notanemoprog Bullshit. Be consistent and deny Christian apologetics as well
@@notanemoprog Hah! And here are examples of no Christian apologetics: Creating Jesus: Why Mark's Gospel Was Forgotten - Dr. James D. Tabor kzhead.info/sun/na6hcrCrsIOHZoU/bejne.html Lies in the Name of God: Biblical Forgeries kzhead.info/sun/nsl-eMyRa3yMi3A/bejne.html
@notanemoprog OK ignorant Christian extremist and apologist.
Kalau mau ikut pool😊iijujn😊 i
hi Gabriel thank you for another great guest- he said his book was free - can we have a link
Just search for the title "Creating the Qur’an A Historical-Critical Study"
This was a great interview.
Amazing discussion ... and yes, love the content on the channel 👍
great conversation do not agree with many but great thanks
Is there any written review for shoemaker's latest book?
While I have yet to read Dr. Shoemaker’s book, I find it very difficult to accept his argument from the Science of Memory, just on the basis of rudimentary facts and experience alone. I have personally memorized dozens of chapters from the Qur’an which total to numerous HUNDREDS of verses in length (to letter & vowel precision) just by listening alone; no reading whatsoever. And I have an entirely mediocre memory. My understanding has been the case throughout all of history with the Qur’an, especially as 90% or more of the general population in most historical civilizations are typically illiterate. Think about it: are we really to believe that only 5-10% of the ultra-educated elite were the ONLY ones leading Islamic prayer and reciting the Qur’an from heart for the past 1,500 years of Islamic history? That simply doesn’t make sense. We know that even the poor were leading the prayers & worship services while chanting/teaching Qur’an throughout the centuries, despite dying illiterate. Moreover, to this day THOUSANDS of children as young as 5 and 6 (I also a 3-year old) who have memorized the entirety of the Qur’an by heart, with vowel precision. And they certainly cannot read Classical Arabic. The truth is, I don’t believe we can compare the Qur’an to any random piece of literature. Because it’s inherent style & mode of recitation boosts its ease of memorization multifold by many magnitudes in degree. And is in thanks to its unique features such as the following: • Constantly repeated words & phrases: The Quran’s pool of vocabulary is remarkably narrow, and therefore extremely manageable in terms of learning & memorization. This includes not only repeated words, but repeated phrases, sentences, and so on. In fact, it has been calculated that knowing just a couple hundred or so words gives you access to 50-60% of the Qur’an (form & conjugation aside). • Repeated memorization: People have been reading the Qur’an on a daily, weekly, and monthly basis for centuries, and this repeatability (such as during the 5 daily prayers) gives the Quran an inherent advantage of being constantly “practiced” or “rehearsed” by countless individuals on a daily basis, which greatly assists in overall memory and preservation. • Rhyming & Cadence: The Qur’an is an inherently rhymed and poetic book, and its rhyming schemes are extremely sophisticated yet easy on the tongue. This can only be accessed in the original Arabic. And by rhyming phrases and sentences, the ease of memorization becomes far easier. This also goes true for cadence, which makes the “beat” or harmony of the Qur’an extremely facilitated for memory recall, which is why even non-Arabic speakers have memorized the entirety of the Qur’an by heart. • Melody: This is a crucial consideration, because the Qur’an is almost like a “sung” Scripture which is melodically chanted in a highly free-flowing & beautiful manner; and when mixed with the rhyming, this allows the verses to seamlessly stick to the mind, and eases recitation and memory by many times over. Just like it is much easier to remember a song than a political speech, the Qur’an is the same way. And we have surely all memorized the words of a song exceeding 50 words, without needing to print out a transcript of the lyrics. So while each of these features alone (and there are more) may be only slightly impressive, the magic is when you COMBINE them together-which is exactly what the Qur’an does. And the effect is NOT merely additive, but becomes EXPONENTIAL, and allows memorization to be remarkably easier than any other unrelated text. And this can once again simply be seen by the empirical reality on the ground, where countless young children, non-Arab reciters, and other Arabic-illiterate individuals are memorizing huge chunks of the Qur’an (if not the entire corpus) with ease. Finally, I struggle to believe that only a maximum of 50 words is the upper limit of memorization in the absence of a written text. Just recently I myself decided to start memorizing some of the Bible. I have never done it before, but I started with the Book of Jonah, listening to it while driving to work in my car. Using an audio of the New International Version audio (NIV), I have already memorized the first chapter of the Book (word-for-word VERBATIM) in the span of just 4-5 days. The opening chapter of Jonah is about 450 words. And my memory is by no means anything but average. When I get around to reading Dr. Shoemaker’s book, I genuinely look forward to seeing if (and how) he has addressed these critical distinguishing factors.
Well said brother
@celestialknight - Excellent exposition. Thank you.
Regarding the concluding remarks about you can’t have memorization without reading. How can you convince me of this, when I myself have large portions of chapter 30 memorized not by reading, but merely listening to recitation repeatedly in my commutes? And, I’m not even an Arabic speaker, so I don’t even understand what memorize. The principle is similar to how people can memorize song lyrics for entire songs and not once have to lookup lyrics. It’s called vibing. People vibe with the Quran at a much greater scale than most people would vibe with Billie Jean from MJ, and how many of you can belt that and not ever have to read the lyrics?
Shoemaker made a weird argument. You are right. He doesn’t even realise that knowledge is written down from memory. You can’t write anything down without memory.
If you read about memorie studies, purely orally transmitted is very very different from listening to a recording. Listening to a recording which is repeating 100% the same text is very different from listening to an orally transmitted and variable text without the assurance, that it is always 100% the same. I think this could be an explanation, but I am not an expert.
@@mfb311 I argue it depends on what you are memorizing. I never read marry had a little lamb, but we sang it in school so I recall it. Also, Muhammad ﷺ had a personal scribe
The person your heard it from may have had a written copy
@@dennylib1 Zaid ibn Thabit (RA) was a personal scribe of Muhammad ﷺ who wrote down revelation as it was revealed. He was also the one tasked with collecting everyone’s notes and finalizing it. So writing did exist all throughout the period of revelation, and it was used to solidify and supplement the oral memorization. His point is moot.
👏🙂 Very interesting interview. I didn't know how much we still don't know about the creation of the Quran. It is really generous of Professor Shoemaker to make his book "Creating the Quran" free to the general public. Best wishes to you both and keep up the amazing work
Excuse me, Professor Stephen Shoemaker, is he a Roman Catholic or an Evangelical? thanks for your reply 
Both of these are lunatic orientalist!
I’m pretty sure he’s agnostic
Wow, what a blessing bravery from Professor. Shoemaker with clear cut answer to the question, because this protected religion always terrifies many scholars, fortunately not Professor Stephen Shoemaker. We really need more of brave and trustworthy people like you who are not afraid of being canceled by those who are afraid to speak the truth.
Can anyone please give me the name Mr Shoemaker mentions between 20:00 to 20:10?
Alba Fedeli and the thesis is Fedeli, Alba (2015). Early Qur'ānic manuscripts, their text, and the Alphonse Mingana papers held in the Department of Special Collections of the University of Birmingham which can be downloaded for free just search for the title
@@notanemoprog thanks a lot
Regarding the memory science, I was first introduced to the issue of memory with the work of Bart ehrman, and the problem of oral tradition. How the story can adapt to suit the place and time. Possibly a hallmark of a good storyteller. The 50 words recall in non literate societies I'm very skeptical of, if the driver of this deficiency is not been able to see the words and therefore correct yourself, how is it I could recall every word of behimem rhapsody, verbatim, might I add, yes I've checked. The first verse alone is over 50 words yet I've never seen the lyrics written until I checked. I would really appreciate a deep dive on this Gabriel as I'm deeply skeptical the data is been accurately represented.
@Dr Shoemaker and Dr. Reynolds, I am also sceptical about memorizing not more than 50 words because the Iban bards can recall, recite and compose parts as necessary for 7 nights of incantation for the Warrior Ritual Festival (Gawai Amat) as translated into English by Dr. James Masing in his PhD thesis entitled The Coming of Gods at ANU. The bards memorize their chants by rote learning and repeated incantations as they are invited to do so. The Iban manang (doctor) for healing sickness also recite a sung chant with the longest one in the Seeds of Play, Power of Words (Gawai Sakit) by Prof Clifford. In addition, Iban lamenter (tukang sabak) for virgils recite a sung narrative over one night, one version of which is written in a book entitled Sabak is written by Benedict Sandin. Besides, there are oral prayers and blessings repeatedly recited by tulang sampi (prayer man) and tukang biau (blessing man)..The prayer and blessing can vary from 5 to 10 minutes and can be seen in internet.
Excellent conversation and super educational! It would be fascinating if you could invite both dr Shoemaker and dr Luxemburg at the same time because I think that would be a fascinating panel to watch.
How does the Kathisma Shrine explain that the quran calls Mary the sister of Aaron? Shoemaker made some interesting claims. However, I was missing some follow-up back on forth about such details... Also the connection to the palm tree story in the quran and the Kathisma shrine wasn't so clear to me
Download his book, it's free. This is on p.255: "In these seven verses, the Qur’an gives a highly compressed account of the birth of Jesus that depends on a distinctive combination of Christian Nativity traditions that is uniquely found-outside the Qur’an-only in the liturgical practices of a particular Marian shrine just outside Jerusalem, the Kathisma church. In the vast world of late ancient Christianity, it is only at this church that we find combined the two early Christian traditions that appear in the Qur’an’s account of the Nativity: Christ’s birth in a remote location (rather than in Bethlehem) and Mary’s refreshment by a miraculous palm tree and spring. For good measure, one must add, the liturgical traditions of this same shrine also explicitly name Mary as the sister of Aaron, just as in the Qur’an’s Nativity account, at last providing a clear solution to this “well-known puzzle” of the Qur’an."
*Not meant to be literal understanding. Both, the Quran and classical Arabic literature are full of this way of expressing* . As to the verse: يَا أُخْتَ هَارُونَ مَا كَانَ أَبُوكِ امْرَأَ سَوْءٍ وَمَا كَانَتْ أُمُّكِ بَغِيًّا O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste. Surah Maryam 19:28 All the Christians at the time objected to this verse. You can if take it literally, but it was answered thus: Mughira said: When I came to Najran, the Christian monks asked me, “You recite the verse: O sister of Aaron (19:28), whereas Moses was born long before Jesus by so many years.” When I came back to the Messenger of God (S), I asked him about it and he said: إِنَّهُمْ كَانُوا يُسَمُّونَ بِأَنْبِيَائِهِمْ وَالصَّالِحِينَ قَبْلَهُمْ Verily, they would name people with the names of prophets and righteous people who had gone before them. *I think it would be worth mentioning that many of direct descendents of the Prophet are mentioned and addressed as: "Ibn Rasuuallah (
@@Zarghaam12 "Not meant to be literal understanding" LMAO typical move by apologists, when you demonstrate that the so-called "prophet" copy/pasted stuff he heard and badly misunderstood they always cry "Not meant to be literal understanding!" The point here, of course, is NOT that Koran calls Mary this or that in a literal or non-literal sense, but that the only place that Koran's creator could have copied this "sister of Aron" bit from was this place, which proves beyond a shadow of the doubt that Koran is a literary human creation, a poem cobbled together from various older tidbits coming from Jews and Christians "prophet" met or heard about, just like his laughable misunderstanding of Trinity also shows.
@@notanemoprog There is no trinity in the Quran. The Quran deals with history. Off course the Quran narrates history. Off course you will find stories found in the Quran in earlier sources. They happened earlier genius.🥴
@@alonzoharris9049 You need to ask for your money back from that Muslim Apologetics 101 online course - they clearly failed.
The book of Isabel Toral-Niehoff about Al Hira (in German, not translated) is *very* important as well. One can get it and translate it easily with AI now.
Wie heisst es?
@@cjcanton9121 Al-Ḥīra Eine arabische Kulturmetropole im spätantiken Kontext
Oh yes! Al-Hira the famous red herring! 😅
@@user-yz1dl3eu8l Danke sehr
Da bin ich aber mal gespannt.
Great interview. It seems that, apart from Arabic, i should learn Syriac asap. Can we make any assumptions regarding the number of syriac untranslated manuscripts many of which may somehow be related to the history of early islam? There is one issue i would like to comment on: it is in general true that verbatim memorization is possible among literary oriented peoples but it doesn't mean there has to be a particular text written down for me to be able to memorize it in full form. Sanskrit Rigveda written accounts haven't existed until recently, yet its content has circulated among hindu followers for centuries. I haven't read dr. Shoemaker's books yet, but i certainly will. Thanks so much prof Reynolds for all of your efforts to teach us about the sources of Islam.
Interesting discussion. Dunno why so few people take note of Quran verses like Q. 2:282 that say you must write a contract down, thereby affirming that the best way to preserve a text for reference is via a written medium, not memorization.
A contract is between two parties. One of the two might later brake parts or part of the contract. Then you have a he said she said problem. Whom do you believe. A written document preserves the interests of everyone. The Quran on the other hand was recited in prayers and therefore had to be memorized similar to what we Muslims do today. We have thousands of people who memorize the whole Quran today even though we have written Quran. The Quran was also written down as it was revealed to the prophet Muhammad over a period of twenty three years. Zaid ibn Thabit was the main scribe of the prophet Muhammad. After the death of the prophet Muhammad and the door of the heavens was closed, Abu Bakr had a group of people collect all the writings of the Quran and had a codex made. Later on Uthman made copies from that document and distributed to major cities.
@@BenM61 I know, but Muslim apologists claim that memorization was the primary method of preserving and transmitting the text, when the Quran itself testifies that committing a text to writing is a superior method of preservation and transmission. If it applies to a mere contract, it ought all the more to apply to the word of God.
@@ConsideringPhlebas Memorization was the primary method of preserving the Quran for two simple reasons: first, Muslims had to commit the Quran or parts of it to memory in order to perform their daily prayers. You can’t stand in prayer with a book in hand. That would be weird. Second, writing implements were scarce and expensive. They didn’t have paper and pencils to use. That came later. Papyri took too long to make and was expensive. The early Muslims resorted even to using animal skins, rocks, palm trees as writing aides. If one does not have access to writing implements one has to memorize the text. It may seem strange to us now but that was a great way to preserve the Quran and that’s committing it to memory by necessity. Don’t forget also not everyone was literate. A common person does not have to be literate to remember verses from the Quran. In fact today we have people who are not fluent in Arabic but memorize the whole Quran. Young people commit the whole Quran to memory without really understanding what they are reciting. The reason is the Quran is composed specifically to be easy to memorize. One of the beautiful aspects of the Quran.
Don't forget the language aspect. Quran was in Arabic and given to the Arabian not Aramaic given to the Roman like bible. For non native speaker it is difficult for sure but for an Arab this is quite easy to memorize as the person spoke the same languange everyday. Moreover Quranic unique linguistic play major role here. It was a unique recitation that can not be easily mixed up with the audience daily conversation
@@andanandan6061 " Aramaic given to the Roman like bible" Since you mention Romans, I presume you're talking about New Testament here: Gospels and other parts of NT were all written in Greek, not Aramaic. Their target audience was therefore Greek-speaking people.
23:15 Ok. I saw the averaging of carbon dating result in corpuscoranicum and thought that was a little too 'interesting' too... so I'm not the only one... but then I thought, perhaps the project team did that with full knowledge that academics know enough to take it with a course grain of salt
While I understand the Professors point the Birmingham manuscript was given quite a wide scope for its dating. What is known for sure is that manuscripts existed within 1 generation from the death of the Prophet. How many manuscripts exist from antiquity that can be dated similarly? Significant New Testament script’s didn’t come about till hundreds of years later.
Great conversation. Intensely interesting and commonsense take on the origin of the qur'an. When science and commonsense walk hand in hand it is a joy to behold.
Would it have been possible for the early Umayyads to establish a canonical text and sprrad it? Didn't they have less control and influence in Iraq and North Africa? Also I wonder if Shoemaker makes any connection with the tradition about the Umayyads destroying the mushaf of Hafsa bint Umar (the wife of the prophet saw) and the idea that the Umayyads produced the Quran in some way. I also found it interesting that the Dhul Qarnayn material is related to a Syriac work since the translation movement didn't take directly from Greek but always translated into Arabic from Syriac intermediaries. The kathisma shrine is related to marian worship. Could this be connected to the Quran talking about the Christians taking Mary as a god?
the memorization of Quran an exception, I witness my own son memorized 3 JUZZ (10% of the whole book) without entering Tahfiz program,, and I myself built a boarding school specialized in memorization which has trained and tested hundreds of students so far, it is beyond our logical understanding
source: trust me bro
Brilliant scholarship and a decent interview.
excellent
Do you plan to go back on MythVision again?
31:33 I wonder whether Prof. Shoemaker is really reporting Michael Macdonald carefully enough here. True, Macdonald does talk about non-literate Old North Arabian inscriptions, but where the Arabic script is concerned, we are looking at a cursive written, not an inscriptional, script, unlike the Musnaf-derived ONA inscriptional script. And Ahmad al-Jallad, I thought, supported this position.
This was awesome. I could listen to the interview if it were 10 hours long. Looking toward more of professor Shoemaker
Without lies Islam does Thank you so much for your work! God Bless YESHUA AKBAR!!!
That's exactly what an impressionable YT user is expected to say. if you knew any better on the subject, you would most probably came to the conclusion that your professor is better making shoes than doing this, whatever this is (because this isn't academic research)
@@abumotorola9614 if you argue against him - provide your counter-argument. Be specific! …. I specifically liked the fact that today’s ability to recite the Quran verbatim relies on the written text. Without the written text - Quran memorizers would very quickly forget it. Such a simple yet undeniable point. That is exactly how it is for all today’s hafiddin Kitab Allah 😄 …. They constantly go back to the text and make sure they still remember it right. The whole argument of “exact oral transmission” is kaput. Done. No more.
@@MBiernat0711 The issue I have with his whole schtick is that his 'findings' are exact match to his wishful thinking. He lapsed many times in this very interview trying to remember some french and German guys from the last century, no wonder he wishes Muslims *throughout history* are unable to memorize and reliably transmit the word of Allah, through unbroken chains of narration, to this day without nibbling through scribes. أناجيلهم في صدورهم
@@abumotorola9614 well his own memory issues or lack of concentration and the question of the Quran memorization are two completely separate issues. Humans of the past never memorized their work verbatim, but used certain techniques like rhythm, rhyme and the use of synonyms. So from teller to teller - each time the tale is told - it could be a bit different and no one would expect them to be identical. What counted were the main Events, persons and their characters to be repeated. That is how today’s scholars of the Quran can find interpolations or edits - where the text breaks in rhythm or rhyme. As far as I can recognize- the Quran has three main layers that were “on the ground” in the 7th century Hijaz/ Levant: the ancient poetry (like the suras that start “i swear by the sun, moon, etc), the street performances / religious plays (all the surah written as straight up dialogue), and the “Islamic manifestos” like Sura Baqara - that tell us what the deen of the “submiters” is. Oh, and, of course Fatiha which is a prayer. Before the Quran was “collected” as one mushaf, those various parts of it “floated” in a society as recitations. They did not have completely solid form, but as an oral product- they reflected same ideas but in different ways (a story has one plot and same characters but described in many ways). Before the Quran was collected - they all changed forms (although content stayed the same). After the Quran was put together and canonized- people got it in their heads that they have to memorize it word by word - and even today, the memorizers are going coo coo crazy to pronounce it in some perfect way … with the perfect elongations of vowels …. With perfect connections between words …. But several ways are still canonized ……. And it is a great pride for the hafiz to know all recitations and all the pronouncements….. this of course would be very silly to the people who put the Quran together- because they didn’t care a damn about pronouncements- but when the Quran was finally put together - the supervising editor (probably the caliph) was careful to take away some things and include others. For example, they took care to make sure that Allah is not a “father figure” or that Jesus is “just a messenger”, or how they use the name “Muhammad” . This is all carefully edited in. So the Quran went through stages - first it was the collection of various “literatures” - play, prayer, poetry, narration - then it was put together- edited - and THEN it was being memorized as an original, “unchanged” “eternal word of Allah”. Shoemaker simply states - that, according to scientific research- we can observe that the human mind does not naturally memorize verbatim - and such memorization is not possible without the written text that the reciters must constantly confirm to. It is a very reasonable statement to make.
What is the etmology of name 'Isa/Iesa' the quranic name for Yeshua aka Jesus?
Did Birmingham - or any other location - know what they were testing? I suspect in an effort to advocate religious pluralism a more closer "Uthmanic" date range was presented by Birmingham. Also, it would be value added to know the dates of the testing. Is there a trend? Is the same sample getting older of younger? If neither, than drop the mic - Shoemaker had made the case that the "evidence" of RC dating isn't reliable. Thank you, gentlemen, for such an outstanding contribution to the Qur'anic Studies field. Adieu.
Absolutely brilliant interview
Memory preservation by human is proven valid til today, not only in quran memorization, but also on singers singing thousand lines of songs. A singer can easily sing tens of songs without any rehearsal from top of their head, right at the moment. Quran is not just a literary masterpiece but also can be considered music masterpiece. Prof Gabriel can easily recite many verses of the quran flawlessly, and he is not even trained to memorize the quran
Right, the lord's prayer which every Catholic learns before they can read is 66 words. That's 32% more than what is proven possible. They is clearly some fancy footwork with data happening there.
@@thepennydreadful95 Rightfully so! I think the memory scientist can only observe within their limitation circle. As in any other science, it is based on induction and generalization. They're doing the observation & test on memory preservation on their objects & concluded that it'll work everytime without exception. This is not to say that their result is a lie, but rather they pick the wrong sample of subjects, they pick the wrong sample of memorization objects & applied wrong methodology altogether
@@teguhwidodo8903 my initial impression was how do we know what an illiterate culture looks like? Maybe they are a few examples, like some Amazon tribes maybe. But that brings us to two obvious problems. the pool size of examples is limited, and the priority any culture places on memorization/accuracy. It's reasonable to suspect all cultures might have different priorities. An example that comes to mind is pagan Rome. they had an insistence of performing ritualistic prayer and movements that must be carefully choreographed. Not doing so upset the gods, at minimum this means the practicioner must restart the process. While I can certainly see how literates societies utilities the increased capacity for memory that accompanies the written word. but how much of this capacity is due to been saturated in a literate culture? A culture that already heavily depends on writing as a primary means of learning.
@@thepennydreadful95Our father who art in heaven Hallowed be thy name Thy kingdom come Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven Give us this day our daily bread And forgive us our trespasses As we forgive those who trespass against us And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil Amen Hail Mary full of grace The lord is with thee Blessed art thou amongst women And blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus Holy Mary mother of god pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death Amen Yeah its pretty easily memorised, lol
Yea to iterate what everyone is saying, this is a great channel especially to people who are ignorant about the Quran and early Islamic history but want to avoid propaganda or something “basic” and overly packaged.
Great Interview but it definitely adds to the confusion. Scholars are throwing us back and forth between the islamic narrative and the revisions.
Hi I am not an academic just an ordinary person. I found this discussion interesting and find how many researchers say that their studies are scientific, many of the times i think it ends up being subjective. And so too i believe that is the nature of humans. And about memory... i am a very forgetful and so always have to write things down to remember it. Or maybe, rather, i don't consciously try to remember it. However i have been in the company of many old people... late 80 and 90s and are amazed at the stories they tell from their youth remembering minute details of events even what they wore, places or even gestures.... and find the very same story or event very much the same told about it of a friend or a sibling.... yes we can argue that they must have told the story over and over to each other..... and most of these old people don't read or write. They just live by memory. I'm just talking of my own experience and grassroots community experience.... by no means from any scholarly or research perspective. I think often we get so self righteous in what we are capable as a modern society in the 20th and 21st or even 19th century that we cannot fathom orrecognise the abilities and possibilities of ancient generations.
Dr Reynolds you shd sit more to the side when doing interviews... that bookshelf is just too impressive not to show
Around the 40:00 minute mark, I’m a little confused about the dilemma proposed, please correct my understanding. Is the underlying issue here that in a illiterate society (society where literacy and writing exist but are not heavily employed to drive socioeconomic activities), the Quran’s addressing of high literal material and traditions makes it anatopistic/anachronistic?
*The same society was subject to and producer of that Pre-Islamic poetry which we all consider of a very high standard. I think there is indeed a problem here in the way that society is being judged 1,400 later by some / many academics* .
Memorization is term fit for people who just memorize it without knowing what they are memorizing whereas Quran was in Arabic given to the Arab. For them It was like piece of cake. They spoke the languange everyday and recite Quran 5 Times a day in obligatory prayer and even more in nonobligatory prayer. It is easy to memorize recitation in a language you use on daily basis and you understand the meaning compared to memorize it in languange you don't understand or you don't use on daily basis. Didnt the guess take this in to account ?
@@andanandan6061 not to mention it has strong literary devices making it so easy to memorize, even non speakers can.
In many other cultures there does exist a first book for the writing of which skeletal workings of literary language are minted ad hoc; nb the Christian bible going eastward into not quite written languages. There is explicit authorship, even documented by the same hands. If that first book is liturgical material, the story gets eerily close to the tradition you are interested in; lest fiction
Thomas alexander?
Quran chapter 18 : is the most fascinating chapter of Quran
I would push back on Shoemaker’s conclusions regarding impossibility of oral memorization in an illiterate society. I know blind Quran memorizers with no knowledge of braille language. They memorized the Quran entirely by sound through a Quran instructor. Shoemaker seems to be unaware of modern Quran culture practices not to mention old ones. Nonetheless I love how assertive he is about Abdul Malik being the one canonizing the Quran. He seems to suggest that Quran being early in an illiterate society with no christian or jewish communities is unexplainable and miraculous.He believes that the sophistication of the Quran and it’s deep engagement with previous biblical knowledge can not be explained by simply saying Quran heard those stories. In other words any evidence of the Quran being an early document produced from within an illiterate Arabic community increases it probability of it being a miraculous revelation in the light of the historical background of mecca which reflects absence of Biblical communities .
Read Shoemaker's book: freely available on the web
“Miraculous revelation” is not a thing in academia. Every scholar that I know of today believes that muhammed was in fact literate and was a merchant where he traveled to many places such as Syria, Jerusalem before his prophethood where he heard these stories. There are also scholars such as Sinai, shoemaker, tesei & even Reynolds himself who believe that the early Muslims who made their way into the Levant shaped and added their own biblical perspectives into the Quran. For example Dhul Qarnayn, was an oral myth that was recycled throughout the Levant in many forms before making its way into the quran.
@@Unknownmale23 Your point about Dhul Qarnayn is not a valid point. You are correct in saying that the story was circulating prior to islam orally at the time. However, your characterization of the story doesn't reflect the way it was represented in the Quran. The Quran presents the story as a response to a challenge given to the prophet. others who were familiar with the story challenged the prophet to show knowledge of this story and the prophet simply responded and narrated the story. In other words, narrating that story doesn't mean the quran author unknowingly narrating an oral myth. As for Sinai and Shomaker's claims about later Quran compilation then I beg to differ. I take the opinions of other scholars like Angelika Neuwirth, Marijn Van Putten, Hythem Sidky, Fred Donner and others.They claim that the Quran is historical to the time of Muhammad. Their arguments are stronger. Marijn criticized Shoemaker on radio carbon dating and said that Shoemaker has no idea what he is talking about regarding radio carbon dating. The radio carbon dating completely goes against Shoemaker's thesis of a later Quran. Also Christian historical information doesn't back up Shoemaker's claims. For example Sophronius's letter to Pope John IV show an already familiarity with a scripture for muslims. Sophronius the Patriarch of Jerusalem was contemprary to the Islamic conquest of Jerusalem in 637 AD. In his letter he referred to the scripture of the Saracens (i.e. the Muslims) as a "fabrication" (Greek: πλάσματα, plasmata), a "vain and impious book," and a "foul heresy" (Greek: αἱρέσεως βδελυρᾶς, haireseos bdeluras). This quote shows an early deep religiosity of Muslims prior to conquering Jerusalem. There's also his letter to John, Bishop of Philadelphia: "Be assured, most holy one, that the Christian community is in danger and that we are surrounded by trials; every day, many of our brethren, entrapped by the blasphemy of the Saracens, are in danger of falling away from the true faith." and his letter to John, Bishop of Scythopolis: "They [the Saracens] are seeking to convert the people to their religion and to tear them away from the true faith, so that they may destroy the worship of the holy Trinity and establish in its place their own impious doctrine of the unity of God." These letters show an early on developed religiosity among muslims where already Christians "falling away from true faith" and show an early engagement from Christians with the scripture of ISHMAELITES and their new religion they brought to the new conquered lands. Another early on engagement happened between Muawiyah I the Umayyad caliph of Syria in the early Islamic period, and a christian named John who challenged him to prove the truth of the Quran by performing a miracle. All these events are recorded in Christian sources and happened 3-4 decades prior to Abdul Malik becoming a caliph. In short you have Islamic and Christian historical sources which goes against Shoemaker and not mention the radio carbon dating on Quranic manuscripts
@@hmansour89 I have misread your initial comment. I thought you were making the argument that the quran containing biblical stories shows its divine revelation, but you were presenting shoemakers case. My aplogies on that. I never doubted if the quran goes back to muhammed Unless I missed something in the video. If you read his book he talks about how he believes it is more likely how the insertion of biblical stories or surah's in the quran is actually from other authors from the early muslims coming in contact with communities in palestine, syria and throughout the levant. He isn't doubting that the quran goes back to muhammed, he is doubting if all of it goes back. This is something that many scholars agree on is that we should be open to the idea of multiple authors which is a reason he said what he said. Cheers
Best interview yet! Very candid and no pussy-footing around 'controvercial' topics. What a refreshing change!
When I consider religious sensitivities, I am reminded of the insulting suggestion we would all travel best with one foot in another's fantasyland & made to use their fantasyland vocabulary. Men have always known the obvious: If God existed, She would make awareness such that the Priest, Rabbi, & Pastors would find no demand for their work in theology.
His point on memory shows the massive gap between academia and the real world. All of his "studies" and "data" and "science" are completely irrelevant when it comes to memorizing the Quran because you can go to most mosques in most areas of the world during the month of Ramadhan and see the Imam leading people in Taraweeh prayers reading the entire Quran throughout the month from memory with very little errors (and the very good ones with no errors). Academics need to get out into the real world more. Books and studies aren't sufficient for knowledge and academia in particular is a very narrow echo chamber, which is why they keep coming up with utter nonsense like 20,000 million genders which just does not exist in the real world.
How did the « Hebrew Testament » (and others) about « Memory » 😱 (😆) 😵💫
*Mr.Shoemker, it does not matter what you think.* It pains for you to admit Quran having an earlier history. Quran with or without 1st century manuscript is a marvelous and miracle on its own. So much so, no one can after 1400 years, even with AI.
True Quran is a miracle It's the only religious text which tells beat a women Her witness is half No equal right to property Enter inside her the way you want as she is your field She has to go through iddat khula Halala Permits child marriage It's has no clue of earth shape No clue of science Half the Quran can't be understood without hadiths Eye for eye Have you ever seen or read a religious book which is so degrading and barbaric So Quran takes the cake and cream both
AI is not trained on Arabic language, wait few years 🙂
@tymon1928 Even with 100 years of training, it will not be able to. Challenge of bring a book like Quran is to bring like Quran a book that create something that create its own laws in language, construction, etc.
@@HajjiJesus this can pretty much apply to any best selling book such as Narnia, Lord of the Rings etc. That doesn't mean these books are from God
This is not about writing dwarves, aliens, etc. This is about creating a new book that matches or goes better than Quran and rewrites/enriches the Arabic language as Quran did. There is used to be regular speech and around 17 poem styles. Quran came and brought a style nobody knew, and nobody ever been able to bring after. *I know reading in English, you don't see this.* Even then, you can see Quran's rhetoric logic when reading translation.
Wonderful critic. I have used some of his books as a reference in my new research on the Qur'an's use of the "apocalyptic literature" to intimidate Quraysh when Muhammad was weak in Mecca. Applying the same critical methods that were used on the Bible is the only way to humanize the Qur'an.
The best way is to get rid of the Umayyad claptrap which even western academics fall for!
It is strange to get confirmed the silos, or better, cylinders of excellence, researchers are living within. Neuroscienctists have known for years the limitations in the human brain.
Well this is bound to blow up! His book "Creating the Qur'an: A Historical-Critical Study" will surely be debated for years to come, I would also be very interested in hearing his response to Nicolai Sinai's objections as seen in his Paderborn presentation available on YT " The Christian Elephant in the Meccan Room and the Hidden Cost of Taming it "
Torah and Gospel and Quran are all from the Creator the One God of all the. It is a guide to good living . When the source of the book is the same the message in it is same too .
« Koran » is not « divin » it’s obvious.. and that’s already a Lot !
you mean it's a lie
« Syriac » - Aramaic - Hebraic , For Truth
Professor shoemaker discusses many potential dates for the earliest qurans- the variance in the data is said to be in the centuries. The professor then picks a date that he says agrees with Abdel Malik collecting or writing of the ' Quran'. Why is it that the Islamic tradition never records such an epic story, and why is no objections to this recorded in the Islamic narrative in an empire that now stretches the known world. Applying Occam's razer, is it not better to pick the date of caliph Usman, which is well attested to as the date for the collection of the Quran. The professor views appear to be an outlier view.. Haytem Sidky also looking at the data comes to the opposite conclusion to the professor.
The date of uthman doesn’t suit his agenda. That’s the answer.
Starting at 12:23, (then 25:55) Shoemaker explains that the tradition varies and not all assign the Quran codification to Uthman. He says that the explanation for this is in his book - so …. Read the book !
@@MBiernat0711 He is wrong about that. He makes false claims in his book about this. You want me to show you?
@@alonzoharris9049 yes but can you be specific- plz provide a quote from his book and provide evidence that clearly contradicts his claims? Could you give me 2-3 examples?
Muslim have been memorizing Qur'an prior to writing in Arabic society. Maybe the prosessor need to learn the Islamic history. The arab writing was still develop by the time Qur'an revealed. Even a blind person can memorized Qur'an. How do you explain that???
🙌🙏🙌
Please read the Noble Quran and learn a lot more, Medina University translation
Do you consider wife beating verses as holy Women's witness as half Enter inside her the way you want Unequal rights to property She has to go through khula Halala iddat Promoting child marriage No clue of science Eye for eye barbaric practices The list is huge Such barbarism can't be practice today
I agree with Dr. Shoemaker, he brings up valid and skeptical arguments pertaining to calibration of dates and baselines.
Gunter Luling theory perfecly match to your approach. Yes islam is a kind of copy of the judaism and Cristian Arameic Hymne.
Carbon Dating is (so) « old », Now … 😳
I like Shoemaker's snarky responses.
Truth is bitter
After looking at the comments, I have to agree.
33:03 -- I can name at least 2 Christians: Waraqah bin Naufal in Mecca and Salmān al-Fārsī in Yathrib. But, OK, what evidence do you need? My apology; I could not find their birth certificates and camel driver's licenses.
The Kathisma part of the interview was the only interesting thing in this episode. The rest was just argument by assertion and arbitrary dismissal. I did not find this surprising from the author of “The Death of a Prophet”, which is the single worst book I have ever read in the field of Islamic history (and I have read quite a few). The entire book consisted of repeating a single, highly-motivated and speculative argument in different words to make a book. The final part of the interview and the argument based on memory science is pure garbage. Narrow studies of specific situations cannot be applied willy-nilly in different real-world contexts across diverse cultures. And surely, even Prof. Shoemaker is aware that memorizing coherent, poetic, metrical or pseudometrical text is far, far easier and natural than memorizing random strings of words - especially made up words. Also, exact memorization gets better with repeated listening, which is seldom studied in the lab. And testing subjects in cultures that place little emphasis on memorization (especially today with access to the Internet) tells us very little about the real limits of human memory, which, like any other skill, can vary by orders of magnitude based on salience and practice. Neither you nor Dr. Shoemaker mentioned that there are traditionally accepted reports of Qur’anic scribes among the Prophet’s own companions. Given that the writing of poetry is well-attested at the time through the mu’allaqāt tradition, there is no reason to doubt the reports on scribes. And in any case, the entire impetus for the traditionally accepted ‘Uthmānic project was that variant readings of the Qur’ān existed and standardization was needed. Examples of Muslims learning the Qur’an based on listening alone are widespread as others have commented, and there are similar instances in other cultures. Within the context of Arabia, I believe there was a tradition of memorizing long pieces of poetry very accurately. But I can say from personal experience that I have memorized thousands of verses of poetry in Urdu only by listening to occasional recordings and without even intending to memorize. Having a written text can greatly facilitate memorization but is certainly not necessary. None of this should be read as arguing for the veracity of the traditional view of the Qur’ān’s history. We already have independent evidence - for example, numismatic - that ‘Abdul Malik played a central role in shaping the Islamic creed (at least for Sunnis), and it is quite possible that the early Abbasid caliphs - during whose time all the major hadīth collections were compiled and the histories of Al-Tabari, Ibn Sa’d and Ibn Hisham were written down - may also have exerted political influence. But weak arguments make a case weaker. I admire your forum and have enjoyed many of your interviews. You ask fair and informed questions, and get good responses from your guests.
The revelation and memorisation of the Quran is a miracle from God so science will be very capable of disproving it. It is the Word of God Himself. The book that came for all forms of religion for all times. Read it and apply it to your form of religion. It is from the very same God that inspired the previous scripture. Believe and read it with the intention of finding guidance, for if your intention is what you shall find in it. We all worshipping the same God. We follow different forms of religion, as a test, as He says in the book. We all from Adam (May the Peace and Blessings of God be upon him) find the similarities and not the differences.
The stories in the Koran are ripped off Syriac Christians
Any point of view or analysis that doesn't agree with Shoe, he calls protectionist and therefore wrong. Wow, great integrity shown in scientific search for the truth. Like ... let me give my final word on the matter, and then I will beef it up with what I believe are facts. What doesn't fit my scheme is not a fact. True scientific method. 🥶
From Marijn Van Putten and Ahmad Jallad whom you have interviewed in the past, I learned a lot of history of Arabiya letter evolved in Quran and also the origins of Quranic words. From this guy, this is the worst interviews you ever had in your channel. His rumblings about carbon dating etc which was already been discussed by someone( forget his name) on your previous video.
Excellent interview! Thank you so much for these videos. Regarding the carbon dating of the Birmingham's Qur'an manuscript, the Saudi prince Mohamed Ben Salman was visiting the University of Birmingham and the carbon dating of the Quran was a gift for him and of course he donated a lot of money to the University. Shame on Birmingham University.
Waffle! Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. You ought to get your facts right, MBS had nothing to do with this dating. There are plenty of other dated Quran manuscripts of similar dating. You are scrapping the barrel!
@@Zarghaam12 "There are plenty of other dated Quran manuscripts of similar dating." False.
@@notanemoprog He is right. Even Shoemaker writes that the codex parisino petropolitanus could have been pre Abdel Malik. This disproves his whole argument for a canonisation by Abdel Malik.🥴
@@alonzoharris9049 , Abdool Arab wannabe, What's up 😀🙂❓
@@rawdog8141 Don’t waste our time. If you want to troll. Go to the channel of Christian Princess channel. That’s your level.
I very much like and respect Stephen Shoemaker's work. And certainly think his findings and arguments are of substance and was I eagerly awaiting this interview. But now I am a little bit disappointed b/c most of the interview was spent on non-technical issues and honestly rather polemical topics. I am not sure why he is getting down this path, even in "Creating the Quran" at some instances one could see traces of polemics, which is unnecessary and harmful to such a great scholarly work.
One thing that I do appreciate about Dr. Shoemaker is his work on Kathisma Church. It is entirely possible that Muhammed his followers were in Jerusalem and even at the Kathisma shrine, and hence there it is in Quran. (and Shoemaker acknowledges that Muhammed existed and that he was in Jerusalem and that he even lived longer than claimed by Muslims in his other bestsellers). However, then he claims, Kathisma story in Quran must be an addition after Mohammed because in Mecca or Medina they could not have known about Kathisma. This is the inconsistency in his argument. He made his entire career on the claim that Muhammed and his followers were in Palestine, then here he claims a Palestinian Kathisma tradition must be after Muhammed becuse there were no Christians in Meka or Medina. You don’t need Christians in Mekka/Medina if Muhammed was in Palestine like you claim. Are people that dumb that they don’t see the inconsistency in his argument. I mean there is no logic whatsoever here. Or is everyone just being nice to him… In all his interviews He answers questions by asking asking the audience to refer to his book. No one else does that. Then he can’t remember is it “ the sister of Abraham or Aaron”. (I mean that is pretty basic if you are trained in Quranic studies- which he is not). Another thing which I did not appreciate is his claim that Kathisma shrine was the early nativity place, before Bethlehem. Is He serious?! Is he trying to undermine Christianity?!!! Is he trying to undermine the Catholic Church?!!! Can he be excommunicated for that?!!! In some Orthodox Churches he probably would. And Dr. Raynolds he even took a stab at challenging you…kind of seemed to want to undermine your scholarship and explanation of “the sister of Aaron” verse…But you took that one like a true professional- I mean you even corrected him, “Aaron not Abraham” even though he was “challenging”your scholarship. That just shows you that the formal training really matters, and that’s what makes you Dr. Raylnolds a Quran scholar which dr. Shoemaker is not. “sister of Aaron, not Abraham” He got the Kathisma shrine right, because that is his area of training, not the Quran. Kids - This just shows you by analogy it is dangerous to practice law or medicine without a license. Got to pass that bar exam before you start practicing!
Finally
No, Alexander is not Zulkarnain of the Quran!. O , Sorry so much so, throwing confusion of your own words and trying to draw the holy Quran in your confusing mind, So sad; Allah protects.
Memorization is term fit for people who just memorize it without knowing what they are memorizing whereas Quran was in Arabic given to the Arab. For them It was like piece of cake. They spoke the languange everyday and recite Quran 5 Times a day in obligatory prayer and even more in nonobligatory prayer. It is easy to memorize recitation in a language you use on daily basis and you understand the meaning compared to memorize it in languange you don't understand or you don't use on daily basis. Didnt the guess take this in to account ?
it is because they have no written manuscript at first...
Only For Truth … 🥂
The Channel is called ''Exploring the Quran and the Bible'' perhaps you could also have Bart Ehrman on for the critical scholarship regarding the Bible otherwise i would recommend that you change the name of the channel to ''Exploring the Quran through a Christian Lens''
Prof Reynolds already has a biblical scholar interviewed. Why does it has to be Bart?
Actually, it is about exploring Koran through a _scholarly_ lens, which I suppose is pretty triggering to Islamic apologists
@@GaaraNous Bart Ehrman is excellent. Islamic apologists can count themselves lucky that he is not that bothered about dismantling Islamic fairy-tales as he is about dismantling Christian ones
@@notanemoprog I don’t think it’s a scholar’s/academic’s job to dismantle anything? They just shed light to historical facts or give their critical/academic interpretations of the past. So why there is a need to use that kind of polemical rhetoric/tone?
@@everyisnaadisfabricated3784 Koran itself is a fabrication. 1) Muslims claim that Koran is of divine origin. That means that there can be no wrong claim inside it. Specifically, there can be no FACTUALLY WRONG claim in it. 2) Koran claims that Christians as such - not any sect or whatever - are a) worshiping three gods, and b) believe in a Trinity made up of the Father, Jesus, and Mary Both of these claims are FACTUALLY WRONG, the second one laughably so. 3) Therefore, Koran is not of divine origin. QED.
« Mekka » is a late « construction » nothing to see there. Is the « hajj » finaly the « Hagg » and « Marwa » is « Moryah » and All came From Jerusalem …
The Pilgrimage
you mean a copy cat
Shoemaker is INSANE LOL
"It might be contamination." "Well, i trust the French for dating islamic manuscript" bra! 😂. I see dating as one point of proof. The Quran is preserved orally, and that's the biggest proof. He needs to his work and study the subject better. Bc you only take your studies from the French and Shia'a 😂. Please bra! Some many of your answers are weak.
How is the reign of uthman not a suitable milieu for standerdization? His rulership spanned 12 years with his most trusted companions and family members ruling different parts of the caliphate, enough to pull the muslims together around a standerdized text, saying it's abdulmalik is a far reach especially when the carbon dating supports the traditional narrative, not to tell you your job but the body of scholarship around this aren't idiots to not consider paleography when choosing the most accurate date.
Read Shoemaker's book. It's freely available on the web
@@notanemoprog lol you really sound like Shoemaker.. is it you or just a fanboy??
Illiterate can not memorize. This is ridiculous claim. Memorization is term fit for people who just memorize it without knowing what they are memorizing whereas Quran was in Arabic given to the Arab. For them It was like piece of cake. They spoke the languange everyday and recite Quran 5 Times a day in obligatory prayer and even more in nonobligatory prayer. It is easy to memorize recitation in a language you use on daily basis and you understand the meaning compared to memorize it in languange you don't understand or you don't use on daily basis. Didnt the guess take this in to account ?
@@andanandan6061 literally most people who memorize the qur'an today are non arab people who don't even understand the arabic of the qur'an lol🤣🤣
@@andanandan6061 i can't believe you didn't know that, now you just made yourself look ignorant.
I have come back here after reading his book. Amazing scholarship. I highly recommend everyone to read ‘creating the Quran’ by Stephen shoemaker
OTOH, in pre-Islamic Arabian society there may have been very strong evolutionary selection pressures that favored those with exceptional memorization and recitation ability. Once literacy and the Koran became more widespread those selection pressures may have evaporated and those abilities might no longer be extant to the same degree in the current population. Or like the Druids that special population was wiped out by attrition or deliberate pogroms.
Memorization is term fit for people who just memorize it without knowing what they are memorizing whereas Quran was in Arabic given to the Arab. For them It was like piece of cake. They spoke the languange everyday and recite Quran 5 Times a day in obligatory prayer and even more in nonobligatory prayer. It is easy to memorize recitation in a language you use on daily basis and you understand the meaning compared to memorize it in languange you don't understand or you don't use on daily basis. Didnt the guess take this in to account ?
You don't know ALLAH......I knew and I know Muslims if you recite any line in the coraan they will give you the line vers no. page and chapter no. how is that for a memory test that is but one of the millions of miracles of ALLAH but some peoples is so advance that start think like kindergarten...
The first step to removing Islamic religious stranglehold on scholarship is not using the capital P when mentioning "prophet" Muhammed
Why haven't you interviewed Dan Gibson? Nobody's work on early Islam is more important than what his research has revealed about Petra.
Why a faith argument can’t be ignored - the simple answer to how these stories made their way to Muhammmad (and doesn’t require an Umayyad empire mining Christian sources , as proposed here), is that it was revealed to him! How did he know the palm trunk Jesus story? Well, consider the Quran itself saying to Muhammad we are telling and confirming the stories of previous prophets . Tada, yes it does all just come down to belief. If it’s impossible to accept the conclusion that Muhammad was a Prophet , then you will never stop trying to find ways to “revise” history .
And, on the other hand, if it’s impossible to a Muslim to accept the conclusion that Muhammad was NOT a prophet , then they will never stop trying to find ways to use all sorts of increasingly implausible "explanations" for all the numerous clear errors of fact that exist in Koran @celestialknight2339 Entire Koran is filled with errors. But even one error is enough to PROVE it is not of divine origin. The fact that Koran itself is a human fabrication can be shown extremely easily. 1) Muslims claim that Koran is of divine origin. That means that there can be no wrong claim inside it. Specifically, there can be no FACTUALLY WRONG claim in it. 2) Koran claims that Christians as such - not any sect or whatever but Christians as a religion - are a) worshiping three gods, and b) believe in a Trinity made up of the Father, Jesus, and Mary Both of these claims are FACTUALLY WRONG, the second one laughably so. 3) Therefore, Koran is not of divine origin. Searching for "Scientific Errors in the Quran" and "Historical errors in Quran" shows many more cases. Here's just a few more. Koran says Samaritans lived during Moses' time, which is PROVABLY FALSE. They did not exist at that time. And Koran says that the Earth is flat. And Koran says that the Earth does not Rotate. Nothing more is needed. Koran is a HUMAN PRODUCT reflecting the limited and erroneous knowledge of its author/authors. And when it comes to history of the Koran itself as a text, the very idea that a supposedly divinely-created word of god like Koran would need to be "compiled" at the command of Uthman because there were already withing two decades multiple different versions in circulation and seemingly every single companion of the "prophet" had his own version is so laughable and so preposterous and so ludicrous that it's incredible that in 21st century there are still people who actually believe such childish nonsense.
@@notanemoprog Do you believe prophets existed?
@@notanemoprogCan you provide an example of a supposed “error” that exists in the Qur’an?
@@alonzoharris9049 is allah spirit?
C14 dating is well-known together with how to interpret it - at least for those who know how to do it right! Dating old manuscripts are always / and will always be problematic. So nothing new there. *Early Muslim accounts do mention the earliest codices as those of Ali ibn Abi Talib, Abdullah ibn Mas'uud and Ubayy ibn Ka'b. The Uthmanic rendition was not the earliest* . We even know what was in the earliest Quran codices, in terms of order of Surahs etc. The problem with western studies can be though not always so, a refusal to accept even those versions that stand at odds with the accepted narrative. These 'at odds narratives' are also problematic for many Muslims as they say things that can sit at odds with the standard narrative, like the often repeated 'mantra' that Prophet Mohammad never named a successor. This is nonsense! Someone who spends 23 uneasy years knowing that you need more than a generation to change society doesn't name a successor! The codex of Abdullah ibn Mas'uud even makes it apparent in the original verse 67, Surah al-Ma'idah, who that successor he named is, viz Ali, his cousin - further elaborated in the event of Ghadir, which has the highest number of isnad (narrations), and almost all Sunni. And the suggestions that Muhammad was alive at the time of the conquest of Jerusalem is from a questionable, dubious source. *As Behnam Sadiqi explained the San'a manuscript represents that of a close , but unknown companion. It fell by the way side when the Umayyags took control and chose the Uthmanic version, edited to make sure that his own caliphate and that of his two predecessors is not negated by what was in the early manuscripts. Uthman was an Umayyad, so it stands to reason that when the Umayyds assumed power they'd go for that one! That version seems to have been forced on the public* ! BTW, the problems with Quran manuscripts pale into insignificance compared the problems with all the Gospels. Biblical scholars tells us that none of them are from the time of Jesus. Mark's Gospel is the oldest of the synoptic gospels and is disliked for obvious reasons: *Creating Jesus: Why Mark's Gospel Was Forgotten - Dr. James D. Tabor* kzhead.info/sun/na6hcrCrsIOHZoU/bejne.html My Gospel of Mark Course-Available at Last! Christian Origins January 12, 2023 jamestabor.com/my-gospel-of-mark-course-available-at-last/ How and Why Matthew and Luke Destroy Mark! Christian Origins January 26, 2023 jamestabor.com/how-and-why-matthew-and-luke-destroy-mark/ *Religious manuscripts do give problems. This is even true of the Old Testament, as it is of scriptures of other (non-Abrahamic) religions* .
He is ready to discredit everything which don’t match with his biased perception.
Are you talking about the Islamic world?
Memorization is term fit for people who just memorize it without knowing what they are memorizing whereas Quran was in Arabic given to the Arab. For them It was like piece of cake. They spoke the languange everyday and recite Quran 5 Times a day in obligatory prayer and even more in nonobligatory prayer. It is easy to memorize recitation in a language you use on daily basis and you understand the meaning compared to memorize it in languange you don't understand or you don't use on daily basis. Didnt the guess take this in to account ?
Muslims are incredibly triggered by this interview it's glorious lmao
Who cares? There's tons of historical criticism on Christianity and the gospels that target/refute your faith. You should really be equal is engaging with historical criticism on your own :)
@@rigby3620 I'm an atheist bro, I agree tons of stuff refutes Christianity, that's not "my faith."
@@cjcanton9121 These Muslim apologists are so funny, they literally think that only Christians or Jews could care about their fables.
Hah! Your imagination needs curbing. As some one who reads around a lot on various scriptures nothing shocks me. For example: *Lies in the Name of God: Biblical Forgeries* kzhead.info/sun/nsl-eMyRa3yMi3A/bejne.html *The day Jesus denied he was God - and the later cover-up* ! kzhead.info/sun/dtyrldaimol-mmw/bejne.html ...and this is interesting too: AMAZING! *Revd Professor Keith Ward on Muhammad as a Prophet of God* kzhead.info/sun/ec-en6uKi5F3h30/bejne.html
@@Zarghaam12 Allah actually does not exist, Koran is a literary product of human origin, and Muhammad was not a prophet. Sorry to have to disappoint you sweetie!
I can't take this guy seriously, anyone can create crazy theories and build a story with cherry-picked pieces of evidence.
Yep - for example, Muhammad did that and created Koran. Shoemaker, on the other hand, is a scholar who uses historical data and logical arguments
@@notanemoprog irrelevant
@@notanemoprog He is not a scholar. Why is he part of the political group inarah?
Like the quran😂
@@notanemoprogBOOM!
Maybe you bring this up later, but let's not ignore the very real and constant threats of torture and death that come with any criticism of the standard Islamic narrative. If it weren't for this (and the forced conversions of the conquest), I believe Islam would have fallen into the dustbin of history long ago.
Let all the honest researchers dig the real truth. The real truth is never ever aftaid. Read Al-Qur'an: 2:2 17:81
Dr. Raynolds - Please this guy is a joke… I almost feel sorry for him and the people commenting how wonderfully smart this guy is. I mean it is alarming to realize how uneducated people are in the basics of statistics and probability even though one can’t graduate from a college these days without taking a statistics course (He does not understand basic concepts like range, outlier,…). He might be an expert on Christianity because that is what he obviously went to school for, but he is ignorant completely in the statistics and probability, yet he is impersonating a scientist and mathematicians and dares pick on other experts who are true scientists and mathematicians. He is not a scientist, he is a scholar of Christianity. Please, how is he qualified to write books on Quran and Islamic history. Where and when did he learn his Arabic which is difficult language to master. I get it he is one of those scholars whose work is derivative not first hand research. Whenever he gets tired from impersonating a scientist, he starts insinuating some vague conspiracy theories. I know it must be excruciating. The fact that he is offering his book for free is a big indicator of what’s going on. You get what you pay for. I mean it’s a big red flag - just that! Dr. Raynolds plesase- I felt sorry 😢 😢 😢 for the guy. And I think you did too because you obviously cut out a big chunk out of this video when he was impersonating a scientist. Children if you are watching this - this interview is the best example why one is not allowed to practice medicine without a license. And why you should not be getting an advice on carpentry from, let’s say, a brick layer. You get my point…that is as far as this interview was educational!
^^^ Now imagine this sort of fact-free easily triggered Muslim fundamentalism in charge of our societies, and make sure you do all you can to prevent it from happening
@@notanemoprog If your gripe is with the encroachment of the most dominant manifestation of Islam and its number of baseless traditions and ill-fit priesthood and leaders then I can understand that much. The Qur'an though... I pray that there'll be a time and place for reconsideration.
You should read 'death of a prophet' and comment on this again.
I think you should go back and reread his books and then listen to him what he is claiming here. You will see that he is self conflicting. He made a career claiming Muhammad was alive during the islamic conquest of Palestine and then here he claims all the Christian influence must be later additions after Muhammad because there were no Christians in Mecca. You don’ need Christians in Medina if Muhammed or his army was in Palestine. Do you realize these are conflicting claims. I mean it is fine to change your mind, but then say I was wrong in my earlier books. He is like amateur scholar Robert Spencer throwing anything out there as long as it is different from the traditional account without any proof; relaying solely on the derivative research (not first hand research) from the fields he is not an expert in.
S.J. Shoemaker (and Guillaume Dye) still stands to the traditional master narrative: Mecca/Medina: therefore, the basis of it which is the most important. To understand the public emergence of the Quran, i.e., why those texts emerged, in Arabic (not Coptic, Armenian, Syriac, etc), one needs to set aside this 'Salvation History'. There is no 'Mecca' before Islam, there is only basalt . Therefore no 'Muhammad'. There are reasons to that emergence. Historical ones. Documented. S.J. Shoemaker is right about Radiocarbon. It is not reliable. One same piece get different results in different labs. This is not science: 1+1 is the same everywhere on Earth. It is.
True. But they're leaps and bounds better than most of the field
Are you well? Just little concerned…I mean you don’t sound very coherent. Don’t hesitate to seek help.
@@fadiljelin7297 Hahaha!
"There is no 'Mecca' before Islam, there is only basalt . Therefore no 'Muhammad'." Hah! How little you know!
@@user-yz1dl3eu8l Why don’t you show and demonstrate a methodology for history. Do that first before you make claims. Then we can judge your own conclusions based on your own methodology. Mel and Robert Spencer are your scholars?🥴
I am sorry but he isn't really qualified to do Islamic studies, he refuses to change his theories even when presented with new proof, same for his friends Dye, Segovia, Tesei and co, they all have this victim mindset and keep accusing scholars who endorse parts of the Islamic tradition even when based on good scholarship that they or their peers did of protectionism and bias but even if that was the case does that mean he and Dye aren't biased ? Hello no, he can't fool me that into thinking that i can't see his and Dye's aim of subverting the Islamic tradition and showing how all of us Muslims have been fools, same for his friends i mentioned above, he should just cut through the nonsense and be honest and i can tell you that his christian bias is apparent to anyone he keeps talking in his work about how we should use methods of biblical studies in Islamic studies when Islam and Christianity emerged in two very different contexts plus he and Dye and friends are associated with the idiotic Islamophobic group of Inarah whose main members don't even accept the existence of Muhammad and his companions which to be fair isn't his position but him being associated with those idiots is enough for me to have a bad look in my eyes, basically all in all sShoemaker is an unprofessional fool. Professor Gabriel I hold you in high regard even if I don't agree with most of your scholarship like that of the Quranic doublets since you are an amazing person in general but please be (you and your colleagues) more critical of the revisionists like Shoemaker and Dye and Segovia , don't give them the green card to say whatever nonsense comes to mind Segovia even implied in one of his books that Muslims messed with the Quran and fabricated the prophet's persona and that he stated that they possibly started as a heretical Christian group. Tesei said once on Twitter that he doesn't care how his scholarship affects the Muslim world, that is really irresponsible thinking isn't it ? I know a lot of what they are saying and I am compiling it so I could send it someday to the news networks now that would be really interesting to see. What Shoemaker and Dye are doing is the same. Nothing can change that. For me as a non academic it is sad to watch such dishonest work being published and praised. It is only giving the Islamophobes more ammo as you can see in this very comment section of yours professor Reynolds.
"that is really irresponsible thinking isn't it ? " Only if you are a fundamentalist. If you really trusted your supposed "prophet" and your supposed "word of god" you would not care what Western infidels think about it Also, calm down. You sound like you're going to explode any moment
He is part of the inarah group. Inarah means enlightenment. They have political agendas. Shoemaker is a dishonest person. He also contradicts himself.