Fred Donner: Faith and Confession in the Early Islamic Community

2022 ж. 18 Қыр.
18 846 Рет қаралды

In this video I interview esteemed University of Chicago Professor, Dr. Fred M. Donner. Dr. Donner is the Peter B. Ritzma Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern History at the University of Chicago, where he has taught since 1982. He obtained a Ph.D. from Princeton University in 1975.
Donner’s early research focused on relations between pastoral nomads and settled society in the Near East, and over the years has shifted to Islamic historiography, Qur’anic studies, Arabic papyrology, and the origins of Islam. His major publications include The Early Islamic Conquests (Princeton University Press, 1981); Narratives of Islamic Origins: the beginnings of Islamic historical writing (Darwin Press, 1997); and Muhammad and the Believers: at the origins of Islam (Harvard University Press, 2010).
Donner has held fellowships from the National Endowment for the Humanities (1978-1988), the American Center for Oriental Research in Amman, Jordan (Spring, 2001), the John Simon Guggenheim Memorial Foundation (2007-2008), the Stanford Humanities Center (Marta Sutton Weeks Fellow, 2014-2015), the American Council of Learned Societies (2018-2019) and the American Academy in Berlin (Spring 2019). He was President of Middle East Medievalists (1990-1992) and President of the Middle East Studies Association of North America (2012). He currently serves on the Board of the International Qur'anic Studies Association (IQSA). In 2012, he was inducted as a life member of the Scientific Committee of the Tunisian Academy of Sciences, Arts, and Letters "Beit el-Hikma."
In this interview we discuss his entry into the field and his work on the early Islamic community.
Thank you and please remember to subscribe to the channel and like the video!

Пікірлер
  • This episode is my dream come true. Fred Donner is the first inspiration for me to stepping into historical-critical studies of early Islam. I'm glad you finally featured him in the channel.

    @GaaraNous@GaaraNous Жыл бұрын
    • kzhead.info/sun/dcOlZLR6ammLhac/bejne.html

      @obaidulhaque7687@obaidulhaque7687 Жыл бұрын
    • U can watch this as quran is evolving

      @obaidulhaque7687@obaidulhaque7687 Жыл бұрын
    • ​@@obaidulhaque7687 what does that even mean "Quran is evolving"?

      @MohamedShou@MohamedShou4 ай бұрын
  • Fantastic as always. What a treat to have Professor Donner!

    @DrJavadTHashmi@DrJavadTHashmi Жыл бұрын
    • hello professor Javad

      @zakymalik6920@zakymalik6920 Жыл бұрын
  • I did my own historical research before I saw This video...and I also came to the conclusion that we were called the believers and not Muslims.. I felt blessed after getting my own research confirmed with this video ❤️

    @OmarOharris@OmarOharris Жыл бұрын
    • هو سماكم مسلمين

      @zaydkarlal5723@zaydkarlal5723 Жыл бұрын
  • Thank you. A wonderful chance discovery of intelligent, intellectually rigorous and honest information and discussion!! Happy to like and subscribe!!

    @durhamgrigg3125@durhamgrigg3125 Жыл бұрын
  • Thank you so much. That was a fantastic interview with Prof Donner.

    @fay1298@fay1298 Жыл бұрын
  • Thankyou. Lots of research and wisdom being shared.

    @petergrimshaw492@petergrimshaw492 Жыл бұрын
  • No blue hair today LOL ... I'm quite enthused by his work approaching from the papyri direction

    @mrtransmogrify@mrtransmogrify Жыл бұрын
  • 👏🙂 Very interesting.

    @AbdulHannanAbdulMatheen@AbdulHannanAbdulMatheen Жыл бұрын
  • Thank you Gabriel. I made a record for the fasted like of my life 😂

    @TheUnique69able@TheUnique69able Жыл бұрын
  • Wonderful discussion here.

    @MrSufiSeeker@MrSufiSeekerАй бұрын
  • Quite interesting.

    @DC-wp6oj@DC-wp6oj10 ай бұрын
  • Wow

    @maur_sault750@maur_sault750 Жыл бұрын
  • The GOAT himself

    @BasedYeeter42@BasedYeeter42 Жыл бұрын
  • I truly admire Dr. Raynolds for his willingness to hear all sides. I do not believe he is a type of academic who boycotts or blacklists his peers. If we can hear one extreme of revisionist argument, then the other opposing extreme of the revisionist argument deserves a chance to be heard as well. I hope that Dr. Raynolds will interview Dr. Juan Cole soon. It would be great if Dr. Raynolds were the first KZhead/academic to break this odd boycott of Juan Cole by non-Muslim background academics. Dr. Juan Cole seems to be blacklisted by his blogger/KZhead academic peers. Dr. Juan Cole’s work just proves that once you start hypothesizing about a period, about which you lack data, you can just as well or even more successfully go into 180 degreed different direction from all other revisionists. One may consider Dr. Cole’s hypothesis wishful thinking but Dr. Cole’s methodology is thorough and consistent, backed up with strong evidence from sound sources, and he is consistent with his sources, premises and assumptions (which cannot be said for some of his more famous revisionist peers in academia). And I am not just talking about his book about Muhammed (which is really about Quran) but also for example his articles on comparing hudud verses from the Quran to the Justinian’s Novels. It so obvious that Dr. Cole is boycotted by his academic peers almost all except the ones with Muslim cultural background. At least Dr. Cole’s revisionism deserves to be challenged and not ignored. Let’s all be adults in islamic studies once again!

    @fadiljelin7297@fadiljelin7297 Жыл бұрын
    • Yes totally agree with you regarding boycot syndrome of revisionist school of thought. In my PhD thesis, I would discuss this issue as a case study while deliberating upon "open door approach" and "Close door approach" policies of revisionist where alike ideas are given forums and podiums and disliked ideas are boycotted. This is academic extremism, which is becoming hallmark of revisionists

      @rashid37009@rashid37009 Жыл бұрын
    • I'd love to hear Dr Cole on international affairs and Iran; the world would be a whole lot better if we didn't look on the most educated and "Western" Middle Eastern nation as being so Un-Western! That said, I'm not sure how much he has to contribute to a historical critical debate about the origins of Islam. Additionally, as a paid employee of Cairo University, i'm not sure how free he is from censure. Now you may say to me the views of Crone et al were wild, but they pushed the overton window for debate in this area. This was crucial for smashing the standard Islamic narrative, which keeps Muslims in ignorance; far better for people to think for themselves and reform voluntarily than to give up and apostatsise.

      @dodgysmum8340@dodgysmum834010 күн бұрын
  • As expected, a fantastic discussion. I do have one minor quibble with the idea that the Umayyads saw Christians as kindred believers. When Umayyad coinage was reformed by ‘Abd al-Malik around 696 AH, the Qur’anic verse chosen for inclusion was 9:33 which says “It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to glorify it over all other religions, though those who associate others with Allah may dislike it.” It’s hard to think that this was directed at anyone other than the Christians who ruled the Byzantine Empire. By then, other “mushrikūn” were largely irrelevant and the Zoroastrians were not a political force. It seems that by that point at least, Christians had been thoroughly otherized in official Islam.

    @AliMinai@AliMinai Жыл бұрын
    • I think the general argument is that it was Abd al-Malik himself that created (very purposefully) the framework for Islam as we know it today. The Qu-ran is solidified, mosques are built, doctrine is established etc. such that Islam becomes a very distinct religion, and there is now a line between being a Muslim or being a Christian/Jew. And Al-Malik does so in an environment where the Caliphate is now firmly established as the greatest power in the region. This is in contrast to the previous decades during the rapid expansions into Byzantine and Sassanids lands where the power of the Caliphate is more precarious. The Byzantines in particular are counter attacking in places like Alexandria, and there would be a major problem if the huge Christian populations in the Caliphate rose up in revolt over religion. The thesis is that during this pre-Umayyad period, Islam was more of a religious revival movement which Jews and Christians were open to participate in.

      @Sphere723@Sphere723 Жыл бұрын
  • Thanks for this…many non academics falsely use these historical theories in polemics and apologetics it is imperative for you to explain why that’s not an appropriate use! And where and why these theories and thought experiments(as Rob Hoyland said about Chrones theorie)… are not absolute facts.

    @truesay786@truesay786 Жыл бұрын
  • @iyadturkay3180@iyadturkay3180 Жыл бұрын
  • The idea presented here of early Islam as a kind of monotheistic revival movement rather than a distinct religion, more or less aligns with Oswald Spengler's take on Islam in his work The Decline of The West, where he sees the emergence of Islam as a kind of zealous reformation movement within what he calls the "Magian civilization", in which Muhammed represents the same kind of character as a Martin Luther or an Oliver Cromwell. On a completely different note, Jason Reza Jorjani has a fascinating, albeit highly speculative take on the origin story of Islam, in which Salman the Persian plays an instrumental role. In short, Jorjani views the creation of Islam as an intelligence operation in order to create a mercenary army with which to overthrow the Sassanid Empire on behalf of the old Parthian royal houses. The army of angels that allegedly helped the muslims defeat the Persians according to Islamic mythology, was really an army of Parthian green clad knights, according to Jorjani.

    @mebtor@mebtor8 ай бұрын
  • Hi David, I’m hoping you can make a video addressing some of the work of Dan Gibson. I have been fascinated by his theories regarding early Islam but it is hard to find any direct critic of his work by academics. Thanks!

    @jackaroo1231@jackaroo1231 Жыл бұрын
  • what did you say during inneddinel indallahel hanafiyye? what is it? can you explain below a bit please?

    @mehmetkoyuncuoglu4913@mehmetkoyuncuoglu4913 Жыл бұрын
    • Salam bro, thid you find it because i also can't unterstand hem wich mushaf he said

      @jusefbelgium3165@jusefbelgium31655 ай бұрын
    • Salam brothers they said in another narration word hanafyyah is instead word islam in ayyah: ان الدین عندالله الاسلام ان الدین عندالله الحنفیه

      @jahangari@jahangari10 күн бұрын
  • Also "DIn" does not mean religion in the Qoran. Din has the meaning "rights, law, judgement, values". The word religion in the qoran is word millet ... so the jews and christians are different milets from Ibrahims millet, decause they didnt foundet their "din" - Laws (hukum) on what was the revalation.

    @drbbyb@drbbyb5 ай бұрын
  • According to Donner both Christians and Jews could be part this new religious movement that arose on the Arabic peninsula or Palestine some time in the 7th century, and developed into a separate religion about 70- 100 years after Muhammed supposedly died. But how do these thoughts fit with how the Muslim traditions 2-300 years later described what happened?? Or were the traditions created afterwards, to fit an Islamic setting?

    @asbjrnbergh7172@asbjrnbergh7172 Жыл бұрын
    • His entire hypothesis lacks coherence and is confusing. It is also very arrogant. It suggest muslims had no collective memory. Also his student points Sean Anthony points out that it is not true what Crone and Donner suggest that there is no history of Muhammed before Ibn Ishak 150 years later. There are broad outlines ( Mekka, Medina, Hijra, conflict with mushrikun) of the traditional account from multiple independent source such as umayad correspondences, papyri receipts with hijra dates, monks describing muslim believes…yes 150-300 years later details are added for the purposes of creating laws and political legitimacy but the main outline of the traditional account is attested much later. Many things Donner says suggest to me he is clueless. I had two christian aunts(they recently passed away) married to my two muslim uncles who take communion. You bet my uncles would support their wives if their priests denied them communion. They would not threaten the priest because that could get them arrested today. That is the case with Islam in the majority of the muslim throughout the history to this day not just early islam.

      @fadiljelin7297@fadiljelin7297 Жыл бұрын
    • @@fadiljelin7297, Muhammad is mentioned in many contemporary non- Muslim sources, so most scientists agree that he existed. But sadly, the Muslim sources describing him are so late, 2-300 years afterwards, that it's hard to know what is true or not. There is hardly any archeological evidence from the time of Muhammad, that can back up the Muslim traditions. The first time his name is on public display, and also the first time his name is mentioned in a Muslim setting (except for 4 times in the Quran), is on a coin from Iran from 686 AD. Why isn't he mentioned more in early Muslim sources? Is he mostly a mythological figure, that later became an important person in a new religion??

      @asbjrnbergh7172@asbjrnbergh7172 Жыл бұрын
    • You are not correct in your claim that we only have Muslim sources 200-300 yrs later. Not true. Listen to Dr. Anthony m.kzhead.info/sun/rNOGqcqgaaicrKM/bejne.html Also- the fact that he is mentioned by contemporary Christian sources tells you he is not a figure of mythology. I know everyone repeats all accounts are 200-300 yrs later- simply not true. Yes the legsl tradition develops as all this details about Muhammed are added. However. Even first sira was written 120 yrs after Muhammed’s death by ibn ishaq. But the basic outline of his life is from 1 st century Hijra according to Sean Anthony (umayad correspondence). Yes Muhammed is not central to Islam like Jesus to Christianity. In islam there is no savior or mesiah or comming of the Kingdom of Heaven. The world ends and it’s every man or woman for himself. We often project our own cultural bias onto antiquity. Also maybe arabs after Muhammed like other nomads just wanted to collect tribute and not build an empire. Think of the early Viking raids and conquests.

      @fadiljelin7297@fadiljelin7297 Жыл бұрын
    • @@asbjrnbergh7172 Muslims sources mention him with in 120 years after his death and those sources go back to companions by chain of narration

      @hashamkhan9517@hashamkhan9517 Жыл бұрын
    • @@hashamkhan9517Chains of narration prove nothing if the content is incorrect, or fictional. Honest people can support wrong ideas and beliefs, and be mistaken or, in some cases, exaggerate. That’s why the Science of Hadith is a spurious label which does not comport to the ways humans behave and communicate, or in some cases, to reality given the acceptance of supernatural tales and entities.

      @dorarie3167@dorarie31673 ай бұрын
  • What is the definition of believers that Fred Donner uses. are Polytheists also believers ?

    @ultrasignificantfootnote3378@ultrasignificantfootnote3378 Жыл бұрын
    • no, he refers to 5:69

      @aksarayi9211@aksarayi9211 Жыл бұрын
    • @@aksarayi9211 Then are Jews,Sabians and Christians, as long as they believe in Allah and the last day also believers ?

      @ultrasignificantfootnote3378@ultrasignificantfootnote3378 Жыл бұрын
    • @@ultrasignificantfootnote3378 Acc Donner yes. But a holistic reading of the Koran shows that believing in Muhammads prophecy and Koran being God's words is mandatory. Belief in God and the hereafter is just a summary of that. And those who disbelieve in Muhammad are not believers in God.

      @aksarayi9211@aksarayi9211 Жыл бұрын
    • @@aksarayi9211 Then basicly ,when a Muslim says believer, he means Muslim.( Believer = Muslim ). Why make it more complicated than that.

      @ultrasignificantfootnote3378@ultrasignificantfootnote3378 Жыл бұрын
    • @@ultrasignificantfootnote3378 True. But there is the interesting case of those believe in Muhammad and the Quran but don't call themselves Muslims, e.g. Karaite Jews.

      @aksarayi9211@aksarayi9211 Жыл бұрын
  • SALAAM GABRIEL

    @mikaal-mohammed1@mikaal-mohammed14 ай бұрын
  • I started believing that Muhammad was a title given to many people who were allowed to author Quran

    @jebuskmiest@jebuskmiest Жыл бұрын
    • Hahaha! That's a new one.

      @paghal11@paghal1110 ай бұрын
  • The difference betwee Muslim and believer( اسلام and Iman ) is will reexplained using the Quran as the the only reference in a book written by Dr Mohammed shahrour “ الاسلام والايمان' Islam and faith, it is fasnating and convincing..it is the opposite detention of Muslims today…

    @walidalsheikh4874@walidalsheikh48748 ай бұрын
  • On examining worship in Islam, it isn’t accurate to say that in Islam there is no liturgy as assessed by professor Donner. The difference is that there is partial liturgy in mandatory prayers where a prescribed set of worship units are performed with insertion of a choice reading of parts of the Quran, and full sectarian liturgy per Christian sect. Sunni sects do have the a further highly encouraged prescribed liturgy of the Taraweeh prayer after dusk, with structural variations in the different Sunni sects. Mainly it is a difference of full liturgies and and variant partial liturgies.

    @maenalmilli3396@maenalmilli339610 ай бұрын
  • How can there be a prophet from a city with zero archaeological evidence for it?

    @dqschannel@dqschannelАй бұрын
    • Archaeological evidence of what

      @Iamfsaly@Iamfsaly25 күн бұрын
    • @@Iamfsaly what do you think?

      @dqschannel@dqschannel25 күн бұрын
  • Let’s see what sura 49 says about Islam and faith. 49:14 The desert Arabs say, "We believe." Say, "Ye have no faith; but ye (only)say, 'We have submitted our wills to Allah,' For not yet has Faith entered your hearts. But if ye obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not belittle aught of your deeds: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." Aslama or submitted is a onetime deal similar to taking the Shahada. Iman or faith is a journey one takes during his or her lifetime. Faith or Iman grows and falters. So faith is an ongoing process unlike taking the shahada for instance. Here is the kicker when we look at verse 15. God defines who the believers are. 49:15 Only those are *Believers who have believed in Allah and His Messenger* and have never since doubted, but have striven with their belongings and their persons in the Cause of Allah: Such are the sincere ones. The believers are those “who have believed in Allah and His Messenger.” That is a direct quote. That excludes the Jews the Christians and anyone who doesn’t believe in God and his messenger prophet Muhammad. Case closed.

    @BenM61@BenM61 Жыл бұрын
  • verse 9:29 “and those who believe not according to the true religion among those to whom the Book was given” this verse is not about all Christians and Jews but about the Christians and Jews who were not on the true path of the true religion (Islam). These are those of them who believed in the trinity who did not surrender to the monotheistic movement under the authority of prophet muhammad pboh and who did not obey the laws of the torah and gospel. If they did not submit then they had to pay the al-dijzyah (extra tax) and if they dont submit or pay the extra tax then fight them. It Has absolutely nothing to do with whether they knew the Qur'an, as the commander was the prophet himself who also explained the Qur'an to his movement.

    @Han16788@Han16788 Жыл бұрын
  • People who claim that Fred Donner is a left-wing liberal have not read his book Muhammed and the Believers in it’s entirety. In some ways he is even more problematic and more orientalist (to say the least) than late Patricia Crone because he is trying to argue that Quran calls for forced conversion through military agression, basing that on a single passage in isolation (poorly translated out of context). Like most Western scholars he just can’t overcome his bias. When Gospels say, “…you must hate your fater and mother…” then that is just rhetorical device but in Quran everything is literal for them. He completely ignores other verses from the Quran which don’t support his argument. If he mentions some of them, then just like that, he brushes them aside with no convincing arguments. He is very selective with his evidence from the Quran. His central hypothesis is poorly articulated and contradictory to say the least. If you carefully read his book he is basically trying to argue that Muhammed’s movement was just like the Taliban and the ISIL, but when faced with the archeological evidence and Quranic verses that that don’t support his argument he reformulates his argument to state, “They were just like the Taliban and the ISIL, except one could join them and still be a practicing Jew or Christian. He states his premise that islamic traditional historical accounts are late and unreliable but then he proceeds to reconstruct a very detailed account of the conquest for the most part based on the same sources he spent so much time dissing. He mentions Roman-Persian war which is something Quran actually refers to and Donner then ignores how it seems to shape Quran’s view of Christians and Jews. He doesn’t do anything with it! OK, I will give him this. At least he is trying to defend his thesis with the actual evidence as opposed to basing it solely on the lack of evidence or solely on Christian sources (which would be something like trying to learn about Russian agression on Ukraine solely through Putin’s media) like late Patricia Croner. He is tying him self into knots with his arguments in Muhammed and the Believers. He just can’t get past the contemporary headlines about Islam and his biases as a Westerner and feels he has to reconcile everything. He manages to confuse even himself. His student Sean Anthony is much better scholar and author than him already.

    @fadiljelin7297@fadiljelin7297 Жыл бұрын
    • Forced conversion to Islam or forced cooperation to the believers movement that encompasses those who believe and don't believe? I think you have misrepresented Dr donner's work.

      @thepennydreadful95@thepennydreadful95 Жыл бұрын
    • Listen to him @ 53:30 min Also read p.85 of his book. His explanation of Quran 9:1-6

      @fadiljelin7297@fadiljelin7297 Жыл бұрын
    • @@fadiljelin7297 I read the book about, must be 3 years ago now. I didn't get the impression the early followers of the prophet were as bad as the modern day Taliban or Islamic state. He states the requirements to be in the believers movement are believe in the one God, living righteously and believe in a final judgement. In the 7th century this is almost everybody. So polytheists who wouldn't convert can expect harsh treatment. The same is true in the Roman empire at the time, arguably worst. At least q 9.5 gives a set amount of time in a treaty for them to establish prayer and almsgiving.

      @thepennydreadful95@thepennydreadful95 Жыл бұрын
    • What can I say… Maybe you should reread his book. Well you seem to agree with him about the meaning of 96:1-6. You also seem to think that 96:5 is actually saying (everywhere, all the Kafirun, from now on…). Really??? Do you also then believe when Jesus said, “You must hate your mother and father, you must hate your wife and children.” - that literally means “hate”, evryone, everywhere, from now on! Of course no one thinks that neither did 1st century Christians. Do you see my point about the bias. In surah 9 ayah 3 actually tells you that 4-6 does not apply to all the Kafirun, and Donner actualy cuts that ayah in half and puts 3 dots. Even salafists today read it as applying only to a specific group of Kafirun with blood at their hands. I think he is trying to make his data fit his argument. After p. 84 Donner is trying to please every potential critic and his arguments just gets confusing. He wants to imply that there was “confusion” among early believers about their identity. I think the only one confused is Donner. I am sorry to say. He really was onto something. But his bias was in the way. And he felt that he had to maintain this stereotype of middle eastern fanatics from the news headlines.

      @fadiljelin7297@fadiljelin7297 Жыл бұрын
    • @@fadiljelin7297 can you show me in 9.3 where it does not apply to all kafirun? Ayah 4 is disbelievers but in ayah 6 it's polytheist. There is a distinction and fred clearly says they is. The almushrinkin are to those who meet the minimum criteria. Im just not seeing it. Regarding Jesus saying hating mother, sister, brothers etc yes I do think he may of said that. Now some translations use "by comparison" Jesus is talking about been his disciple, he was in my opinion an apocalyptic prophet who thought the world was about to end and this is more important. Early Christians were encouraged not to marry, to give away there wealth etc due to this very early apocalyptic thought.

      @thepennydreadful95@thepennydreadful95 Жыл бұрын
  • If they believe in “One God, the Last Judgment and they live righteously” AND if they accept Jesus as the Messiah AND reject Jesus as God. That is what makes the believers the “in between” nation -between the Jews and Christians The early Islam is not just an apocalyptic movement- it is the Messianic movement as well. Can an apocalyptic movement NOT be a messianic movement by default ?

    @MBiernat0711@MBiernat0711 Жыл бұрын
    • @memories2019ss no, ha-garean. That means Jewish sympathizers who were allowed to sacrifice and to hagg/ hajj alongside the Jews. The mythical story of the “polytheists not allowing the believers to perform hajj to Mecca” is an echo of the Christians not allowing the Jews or the Jew sympathizers to perform pilgrimage to Jerusalem. After the “Mecca” was “retaken” - the “deen” was complete. Also, I don’t necessarily think the original believers come from around Jerusalem. Their “Mecca” of destination was Jerusalem, but they could have came from several origins . But - of course - the believer movement COULD include the Jews and the Christians - as long as the Jews accepted Jesus as the Messiah, and the Christians gave up the idea that Jesus is equal to God. Jesus is still perceived by the early believers as a divine person, but NOT God himself.

      @MBiernat0711@MBiernat0711 Жыл бұрын
    • It is still apocalyptic and messaniac, and always will be until the final hour.

      @ibnsoolas-somalee3498@ibnsoolas-somalee3498 Жыл бұрын
    • @@ibnsoolas-somalee3498 yes. And when something is “messianic” means focusing around the Messiah. Jesus. That needs to be looked into with sharper focus.

      @MBiernat0711@MBiernat0711 Жыл бұрын
    • @@MBiernat0711 Go right ahead and knock yourself out, you won't find much difference from the traditional account though. That the Jews attempted to kill the very Messiah that was prophescized to them by all their prophets since the Torah. However God saved him, and will preserve him to return and fulfill those same messianic prophecies, but under a different people. This is because God cursed the Jews after this and replaced them with the other children of Abraham, the ishamelites, to now spread his message to the rest of humanity.

      @ibnsoolas-somalee3498@ibnsoolas-somalee3498 Жыл бұрын
    • @@ibnsoolas-somalee3498 yes, I agree with you. The Quran is very antagonistic toward the Jews who rejected Jesus as the Messiah. Quran describes those people as those who “accepted first” (the message of Moses) and then rejected after believing (the Messiahship of Jesus). Also, the Quran does not really deny that Jesus’ body was crucified and died (and Jesus as the Spirit was taken to God) - but, rather - says that “it seemed to them that he was crucified.” This resembles docetic belief that Jesus’s body was a phantom. That is because in truth - Jesus was the Word and Spirit from God. And that can not die

      @MBiernat0711@MBiernat0711 Жыл бұрын
  • 1) Mu'min 'believers' refers to many things. Such as ebing one of the names of Allah and can be applied to Muslims. 2) Jews and Christains are not considered nor refered to as Mu'min beilvers. As adedemics you should know better, what makes someone a beilver? Not only is it indeed the first half of the shahada "I bear witness that there is no God but God" but also the second half 'and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.” 3) Jews and Christians dont regrad Muhammad as a messanger of Allah nor beilve him to be the last messanger of Allah, let alone follow the Sunnah. 4) Aside from the Shahada, in order to be a believer (muslim) one must have beilf in the 6 pillars of Faith, which jews and Christans also do not fully accept/believe in.

    @z.3hra908@z.3hra908 Жыл бұрын
  • I swear this is my last post on Donner. Let me just address a few claims he makes in the interview. Dr. Raynolds challenged him on many points but I wish to add something many might find as if stating the obvious (but not obvious to Donner…). This interview in many ways suggests to me he is out of touch if not clueless. I know he specializes in early islam, and it is OK to maintain scholarly outsider perspective, but 2 instances of blurry lines he brings up... Is he for real? I grew up with 2 Christian aunts who used to take communion, while married to my Muslim uncles. Had their priests denied them communion, you bet my Muslim uncles would have supported their wives and probably would have taken it personally. They might have not directly threatened the priest because in their time this could get them arrested. What he is describing as blurry boundaries in early Islam, you can find instances of that, anywhere in Islamic world throughout history to this day. I mean you have even the famous case of Mara Brankovic married to sultan Murad II and mother figure to Mehmed the Conqueror who was a patroness of countless Christian monasteries and churches. Christians painted frescoes of her like of a saint in their churches and nuns lovingly call her to this day Sultania Maria. Also of course we know which parts of Quran were more widely disseminated. And yes if you want to call them liturgical you can. It is the surah 1 plus the last 10 surah. More often it is just Fatiha plus the 4 quls. How we know they are liturgical, we know they are short (easy to memorize), they are early (so community knew them from the start), unlike other verses/surahs they are in form of supplication or statements of the community’s creed. To this day from as far back as we know every Muslim child in the world first memorizes sura 1 + last 10. Especially the 4 Quls. The vast majority of muslims only ever memorizes just sura 1 + last 10 suras to this day and only use those in daily prayers. Even imams in mosque mostly recite those to this day to keep the prayers short. Every muslim child or convert to this day as far as back as we know after Fatiha first memorizes 4 Quls. Quran surah 109-6, “To you your din/religion and to me my religion. “

    @fadiljelin7297@fadiljelin7297 Жыл бұрын
    • So apt and to the point. I recommend don't stop chasing false history. Keep working on it as long as they keep working on it

      @rashid37009@rashid37009 Жыл бұрын
  • 34:59. Tri-consonantal Semitic roots of Muslim is Shin Lamed Meem (Heb) - Sin Lam Meem (Arabic) - S-L-M, shared set of meanings in both languages - Shalam - Shalom - Islam - Salam - Salaman -Solomon- peace - submit for your debts to be forgiven. Mushlam in Hebrew. Muslim/Mushlam/Meshulam also means being whole/perfect. Jesus said to his disciples to be Mushlam(perfect). To be true to your nature, to your self and function accordingly. Muslim is anything that that has been created according to its nature and function. That was Moses' reply to the Pharoah in the Quran; God is he who created everything according to its nature and appropriate function. That is the meaning of Muslim. By the way, according to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Arabia is the home of the Semites, Semitic Languages and culture and the starting point of migration.

    @sirfrozsomji3984@sirfrozsomji39846 ай бұрын
  • That's what they call "مستشرق" 😀

    @Dkarim87@Dkarim8711 ай бұрын
  • هو سماكم المسلمين Translate this

    @ahmadradwan5914@ahmadradwan591417 күн бұрын
    • He called you Muslims

      @abdullahtahir9622@abdullahtahir962211 күн бұрын
  • He is totally wrong in his views about who the ‘believers’ are. Almu’minun or believers is a noun and it refers to the believers in the prophet Muhammad and his message the Quran. The Jews and the Christians are not Mu’minum or believers’ in that sense if they don’t believe in the prophethood of Muhammad and the Quran. It is that simple. There is not one verse from the Quran where God adresses ya ayuha almu’minun or o you believers and he means by that people other than the followers of the prophet Muhammad. I dare the professor to produce just one verse. It is never about the Jews or Christians. Never. Verses 22:17 shows the difference: 22:15 Whoever thinks that Allah will not help His Prophet in this world and the Hereafter, let them stretch out a rope to the ceiling and strangle themselves, then let them see if this plan will do away with ˹the cause of˺ their rage. 22:16 And so We revealed this ˹Quran˺ as clear verses. And Allah certainly guides whoever He wills. 22:17 Indeed, the believers, Jews, Sabians, Christians, Magi, and the polytheists-Allah will judge between them ˹all˺ on Judgment Day. Surely Allah is a Witness over all things. We have six groups in verse 22:17: - The believers, those who believe in the prophethood of Muhammad. - The Jews. - The Sabians - The Christians - The Magi - The polytheists or the Mushrikun Those six groups of people are distinct and different. It is clear as day.

    @BenM61@BenM61 Жыл бұрын
  • Hidden Origins if Islam, Early Islam and Creating Quran show the Standard Islamic Narrative is false.

    @dqschannel@dqschannelАй бұрын
  • Akhira or the hereafter is fundamental to the believers or follower of Muhammad and it did not exist for non believers, it is a novel and revolutionary concept in their time and in all times!

    @radwanabu-issa4350@radwanabu-issa43509 ай бұрын
  • Dr Gabriel although I know that you won't answer this question. Bit plz be so kind as to tell us about the pagan egyptian roots of circumcision.

    @user-xl2bo2om1q@user-xl2bo2om1q4 ай бұрын
  • WE SHOULD SAY MUSLIM OR BELIEVER, NOT MUSLIM! Allah has named believers as "Muslim". However, approximately 250-300 years after the Prophet Muhammad, the word "Muslim" was produced from the Persian word "MUSELMAN" with the introduction of Sufism to Islam and the influence of Iranian culture. But the Qur'an does not have the word "Muslim", it has the word "Muslim". According to the grammatical rules of the Qur'an, the word Muslim cannot be produced from the word Muslim.

    @erkanozsaatcilar@erkanozsaatcilar Жыл бұрын
  • I dont understand why a clear statement must be reinterpreted in this way !! 1. The term din, as many others are defined by the context "Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day, nor comply with what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor embrace the religion of truth from among those who were given the Scripture, until they pay the tax, willingly submitting, fully humbled" The religion of truth (it cant be judgement or law here), is used in context of people of the book 2. Majority of christians today dont even prostrate in prayers and pray to jesus which is condemned, the verse of salvation of some of people of the book, doesnt apply to all christians and jews This is derived just by reading the text as it is I have no idea why these scholars want to twist what is very clear, maybe its just to say something new what nobody has said .... The fact that he had bad blood with Crone over an introduction is problematic, and shows not to just accept a new theory just because...

    @artf2651@artf2651 Жыл бұрын
    • Whats your point? Muslims eat camel meat even when it is forbidden in the old testament and still they claim to be of the same tradition. Newer religion always makes claim of continuation o f an older one and uses older termonologies and narratives to justify and propagate their new doctrines.

      @misterprogressive8730@misterprogressive8730 Жыл бұрын
    • @@misterprogressive8730 Did u hear what i just heard ?! 1. He is in agreement with Crone that if muslims say x we should say y, without good evidence or try finding evidence for it , and we know what Crone produced with that thinking - as if Quran was written centuries later then proved bull 2. He argues as if the word muslim and islam didnt mean what meant by the time of ...lets say Malik ibn Anas, 2 century Whos word should I take....Malik, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Abu Hanifa ..... or a 20th century proffesor from USA that will argue against a muslim belief just because muslims argue for it ?!?!?! 3. False analogy with the camel meat, What he says would be analogous to: the camel meat is not a camel meat but has many interpretations, and that jews werent aware of this interpretation but came to it later Hes disagreeing with a) clear text and its context b) unanimity of all muslim scholars from the begining as if he knows arabic, jursiprudence, aqida more than a Malik ibn Anas the guy who studied under students of companions of the prophet Even historically, whats the most probable Malik not hearing of this theory or a 20th century American Prof that goes againt even clear text of the quran ?! hehehe amazing the arrogance of these profs

      @artf2651@artf2651 Жыл бұрын
  • The origin of islam : هو ابوكم سماكم المسلمين من قبل وفي هذا ليكون الرسول شهيدا عليكم وتكونوا شهاء على الناس المؤمنون ليست ترجمته believers but rather those who are in a state of security,

    @user-of1xy6tj5f@user-of1xy6tj5f9 ай бұрын
  • It reminds me of christians trying to fit Jesus as god and messia in both testaments, or shia trying to explain the clear reality by conspiracy theories (ali hated abu bakr and omar but named his sons abu bakr and omar because its common with arabs hehe)

    @artf2651@artf2651 Жыл бұрын
    • well, surely Mohmed is not prophesied in the bible, neither old nor new testament 🙄

      @hans471@hans471 Жыл бұрын
    • @@hans471 Heh Considering what ur scholars logic is .. Even with clear text in the quran where god calls these believers muslims etc. saying it doesn mean that but a conspiracy theory no one heard up until 20 th century yeah I would be startled if u even consider something as a prophecy

      @artf2651@artf2651 Жыл бұрын
    • @@mmss3199 according to Bart ehrman the new testament is more reliable than the Quran. In fact, he wouldn't consider the Quran to be a reliable source at all 😄

      @hans471@hans471 Жыл бұрын
    • @@mmss3199 the Quran claims that Mohamed is proph side in the bible but he is not. Not so difficult 🙄

      @hans471@hans471 Жыл бұрын
    • ​@@hans471 according to Barat but not Islamic schoolar. One fake Hadith much more credible than entire biblos written by unknown dudes.

      @andanandan6061@andanandan606111 ай бұрын
  • Mind you.. Bible should also be EQUALLY explored .. as well early christianity; how it diverted from the original

    @kamarudinhj.dolmoin8578@kamarudinhj.dolmoin8578 Жыл бұрын
  • “Today I have completed your Deen for you”, in the context of the military victory of the surah - can be understood as the completing the accomplishment of reclaiming Mecca by Muhammad OR taking Jerusalem by Omar, if one presumes “Mecca” signify Jerusalem and “Muhammad” being largely based on Omar (and/or some other leaders and teachers of early Islam). Thus - Jerusalem is taken back to the believers from the Christians, the hajj can start again, the sacrifice can be made --and now - the Messiah can come and the Last Judgment will follow. THAT is what “today I completed your deen” means. Of course the Messiah did not come and the Last Judgment never happened so after a couple of generations the ideology was re-thought and significantly modified into what we know, eventually - as the “religion of Islam”.

    @MBiernat0711@MBiernat0711 Жыл бұрын
    • Your view/outcome on Islam is simply full of error ( a.k.a garbage)

      @akabaka1993@akabaka1993 Жыл бұрын
    • That must be one of the worst line of arguments I've ever heard online and God knows I heard many! If my grandmother was born in England in the Royal Family and her father was king then today I would have been the heir to the British Crown!

      @zeustn9525@zeustn9525 Жыл бұрын
    • @@zeustn9525 it is just we don’t have the habit to read the Quran in the context of messianism. If you notice - in the Quran there are as two main prophetic characters. The first is a spiritual “Muhammad” who is the Light of God. This idea of a Jesus - like spiritual messiah (named Muhammad) is pre Islamic and comes from the South Arabian peninsula (together with the cult of Al Rahman). The second is the earthly Rasul - who is not named in the Quran, but is sent ON BEHALF of the heavenly Rasul - in order to support and, even, glorify the heavenly Rasul. This all sounds very strange to people who never took on this idea of “two rasuls of the Quran”.- I think I am the first one but there may be some others I’m not assure of. When you start reading the Quran in this context - it will make LOT more sense. It won’t appear as jumpy and disjointed anymore because you will know who speaks to whom.

      @MBiernat0711@MBiernat0711 Жыл бұрын
    • Thanks for the laugh 😂😂😂

      @ibnsoolas-somalee3498@ibnsoolas-somalee3498 Жыл бұрын
    • @@ibnsoolas-somalee3498 you’re welcome :)

      @MBiernat0711@MBiernat0711 Жыл бұрын
  • Islam means the religion that came with all profhets all with same message namely “monotheism, believe in one god” the people who submits on this message are “muslims” (followers of mohammed pbon, jews and unitarisme christians.

    @Han16788@Han16788 Жыл бұрын
  • The Qur'an does not deny the divinity of Jesus if you read it carefully. The error people are making is not understanding the argument which goes back to the 3rd and 4th ecumenical councils. The 3rd Council specifically dealt with the Christology of Jesus which lead to a greater debate on the nature of Christ. The Assyrian Church of the East emphasised the Humanity of Christ whilst the Oriental Orthodox Church emphasised the Divinity of Christ. Both did not disagree with each other on principle but because of their egos they continued to keep on emphasising their points even after the 3rd council. So when you take that into the consideration the Tayye who was associated with the Assyrian Church of the East or whoever the Arabs who originally had this Qur'an where just emphasising the Humanity of Christ to the point that when people to day read it that they think its denying Christ divinity but it does not at all. Examples of Christ divinity is shown throughout the quran if read carefully and even the trinity is affirmed by the Qur'an. I just hope people will stop saying that the Qur'an is a different book and how it Denys the trinity, the death of Jesus, and the divinity of Jesus when it does not at all and affirms or confirms them😫

    @eromonsele1521@eromonsele1521 Жыл бұрын
    • Nah it pretty clearly does, also clearly states anyhone who takes anything as a deity besides Allah is a mushrik.

      @AbuRashidIbrahim@AbuRashidIbrahim Жыл бұрын
    • "Throughout the Qur'an"? Jesus is mentioned by name in 15 of the Qur'ans 114 surahs (admittedly, including some of the later/longer ones). Do you see any references to the divinity of Jesus in the surahs that don't mention him by name? It seems to me unlikely that the Qur'an author(s) would have omitted any reference to Jesus, or any NT figure, for what was likely the Qur'ans first 2/3 or 3/4 of its announcements, if JC was at that time seen as important.

      @paulellis5101@paulellis5101 Жыл бұрын
    • @@paulellis5101 Are you replying to me or someone else because I can see two comments have been made under my post but only one I can see. And if you are talking to me I don't understand what you are trying to say because I didn't say Jesus wasn't mentioned through the Quran. My point was not only was his divinity never denied but also affirmed by the Quran

      @eromonsele1521@eromonsele1521 Жыл бұрын
    • Quran clearly rejects worshipping Jesus and deifying him.

      @aksarayi9211@aksarayi9211 Жыл бұрын
    • Interesting, where is the trinity affirmed?

      @dabdab8585@dabdab8585 Жыл бұрын
  • All prophets were muslims.

    @strongwater7814@strongwater7814 Жыл бұрын
    • muslims became a word invented in 7th century AD

      @robmckay5421@robmckay54214 ай бұрын
KZhead