What A Feminist Has To Say About Masculinity - Christine Emba
Christine Emba is an opinion columnist at The Washington Post, journalist, social commentator, and an author.
Christine wrote one of the best articles on modern masculinity that I've ever read and it absolutely broke the internet. But it begs the question of why it's come down to a woman to raise the topic of men's issues.
Expect to learn why making men and women equal is good but overreaching into making men and women the same is terrible, whether Christine thinks it is harder to be a man in 2023, the biggest issues that boys & men are facing, why it is women who are dominating the narrative on what it means to be masculine, why the only "non-toxic" suggestions for masculinity just look a lot like traditional femininity and much more...
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#masculinity #feminism #men
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00:00 Christine’s Controversial Article
02:31 What is Happening to Men Today?
09:54 The Term ‘Toxic Masculinity’
16:39 The Failings of Modern Feminism
22:20 Why the Right Adopted Men’s Issues
25:20 Why Male Issues are Represented by Women in Mainstream Media
30:54 Are Conservative Men Are More Attractive?
37:16 Why the Left Are Ignoring Men
46:17 Recognising Female Success & De-gendering Male Success
52:32 Is the Masculinity Crisis Impacted by Absent Fathers?
1:00:43 The Need for Single-Sex Spaces for Male Bonding
1:09:05 Who is Trying to Provide a Solution for Men?
1:20:56 Has the Left Criticised Christine?
1:26:03 Where to Find Christine
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Hello you beauties. Access all episodes 10 hours earlier than KZhead by Subscribing on Spotify - spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - apple.co/2MNqIgw. Here’s the timestamps: 00:00 Christine’s Controversial Article 02:31 What is Happening to Men Today? 09:54 The Term ‘Toxic Masculinity’ 16:39 The Failings of Modern Feminism 22:20 Why the Right Adopted Men’s Issues 25:20 Why Male Issues are Represented by Women in Mainstream Media 30:54 Are Conservative Men Are More Attractive? 37:16 Why the Left Are Ignoring Men 46:17 Recognising Female Success & De-gendering Male Success 52:32 Is the Masculinity Crisis Impacted by Absent Fathers? 1:00:43 The Need for Single-Sex Spaces for Male Bonding 1:09:05 Who is Trying to Provide a Solution for Men? 1:20:56 Has the Left Criticised Christine? 1:26:03 Where to Find Christine
It would be great to have the lead attorney on but love the podcast. Keep up the great work
"The left is not offering a role model for men" No, they've actively demonised masculinity. You can't simultaneously talk about masculinity in similar terms to 'original sin' while creating your own masculine role model. You just look like a fool. Also, 'girls bounce back better than boys' - but are girls short of female role models? Yes, the men's sheds movement is an Australian invention, I think there's been a bit of pushback from feminists and there's some variation in acceptance of some women in them, some sheds yes, some sheds no. But I don't know what's been happening recently.
Do a podcast about male vs female crime, domestic violence, and homicide.
Incredible work and depth and maturity from both of you. I think you both need to build your pill together ❤️
33:30 Chad Williamson
The one thing that has always made no sense to me is this idea of encouraging women to be boss bitchs, yet the equal version of boss bitch to men is toxic and misogynistic. How can people not see how immature and hypocritical this is?
Because the socialists want everyone to be depressed
It's almost like they're okay with oppression as long as it's coming at the hands of a female 🤔
It's not an accident.
Way back in late 90's I noted that feminists encourage traditionally masculine traits in women, and feminine ones in men. I thought it was primarily a power move, as feminists on some level associated traditionally masculine traits with dominance. I got called every variant of ignorant misogynist, but don't remember getting any counterarguments. Oh well. Personal attacks didn't change my mind and nothing I've seen since has done it either.
There's lots of emotionally immature women, and they tend to be attracted to "toxically masculine" men, while not liking that they're attracted to those men. Because she's supposed to be a good woman who is attracted to emotionally sensitive, polite men. Right? Hence those emotionally immature women try to get men to stop being "toxically masculine" and also try to get women to be "toxically masculine."
I'm done listening to how men can be better until 50% of the conversation is how women need to be better too.
Spot on
They’re women they don’t need to change they’re perfect 👍
Nailed it
In the past, good women used to be our muse and inspiration. The reason why we want to conquer the world. Nowadays, I put in the bare minimum to get what I want. It works fine and I don't suffer delusions.
@@bazmilo-furball1they are the worst individuals in human history. Your most hardcore Nazi or Taliban is a much higher quality individual than your average feminist today. Over 4 billion babies dismembered, murdered in their own mothers wombs in the last 47 years alone. What type of individual does this. And what type of individuals call this evil a good thing? Chew on that for a while,and that's women today. Sadly this is democrat country, Obama's America,the Clintons America,the Biden crime families America, AOCs America, atheist Marxist democratic socialist America. The democrat party did this to what used to be christian America in the 1960's. In the 1960's the democrat party took GOD, prayer, the Ten Commandments and Bible study out of the American schools and the public square and replaced them with atheism as the official religion of the American schools and the public square. This is the outcome. Add on the marriage made in hell by women and the baby killing KKK slave democratic party in the 1970's when the democrat party gave America the genocide of babies in their own mothers wombs. Roe vs Wade would not have been possible if the American schools still had GOD,prayer , the Ten Commandments and Bible study. The democrat party took a page out of Nazi Germany on this one,took control of the education systems and brainwashed the next generations to be useful idiots.
When Christine says, 'Great (you older guys), now go and teach younger men how to be good men', I'm thinking, 'I did that by bringing up my sons to be good men and also showing my daughter what good men looked like. This is one reason why two parent families have value IMO.
I'm sixty- three, ex cop, current ju jitsu instructor, hill walker, cyclist, ex boxing coach, ex mountain bike guide. Currently working as a lifeguard and swimming teacher. A friend did the lifeguard course with me and would be an equally great role model for kids. But in 1998 when he was in Spain, a woman in the UK accused him of rape. Once it was proven that he was not even in the country at the time, he was released without charge. It still shows up on his enhanced criminal disbarment check. And he cannot get a job with any kind of vulnerable group. Such is justice in the UK.
I can't and will not be instructed, if not lectured, by a young lady with little life experience. I listened to the whole episode and have read her piece, I've heard and read similar before. I hope she does well and has a son.
All of us had that opportunity but out fathers were nothing but a child support payment she's an idiot
I know, does she realize one of the problems men face in society is decades of feminists socially conditioning society to view men as predators and men can’t mentor or be good role models without being viewed as predators sealing victims?! I’ve had the police called on me for spending time with my own kids in public unchaperoned by women (my wife)?!?! It’s great to claim men need to be good role models and mentors, but ignore why they can’t because you lack the self awareness to realize you’re part of the problem! It comes of as her wanting whatever she wants from men, without actually acknowledging the problems men face or the part she plays in creating those problems!
what's interesting is that they found if there can't be a two parent household, specifically a father and mother, the next best thing is a single father. Those raised in homes by single mothers are at the greatest disadvantage. Perhaps if women weren't incentivized to break up families, maybe the children would have a fairer shot in life.
Men are just now starting to understand how you will be treated in divorce court. The judge just transfers the house, land, children , furniture, cars to her. They dont care about her bad behaviors. Then he has no rights to his childrens life. He has no rights for visitation. He owes her for another 18 years.
Ok bud… gross generalizations aren’t helpful. Share examples, but broad brushing this is lazy.
@@TheYaegerjeusmcMale victims of statutory rape still have to child support to thier convicted Female rapist once they turn 18 with back pay. While convicted male rapists are put in prison. If you do not think the legal system is biased you're blind.
@@TheYaegerjeusmcMale victims of statutory rape still have to child support to their convicted Female rapist once they turn 18 with back pay. While convicted male rapists are put in prison. If you do not think the legal system is biased against men you're blind.
@@TheYaegerjeusmc I hope she sees this. Generalisations aren't invalid just because not exactly every man is drawn and quartered by women and womens real husband, the State™.
Young men don't want sympathy...they want respect, purpose and the feeling of being needed/helpful and wanted you give a man that he'll give you all that he has and all that he is...just my take ✌️🖖🏴
Respect is earned, and purpose is something you need to find from within yourself. Being needed and wanted has to do with what you have to offer as a human being. So, it's all in your own hands, gentlemen. I wish men could realize how much power they actually have, and use it in a positive and productive manner. For some reason they feel women have to give that to them? Just my take.
@@joanofarcxxi of course you need to earn those things totally agree however I think there's a lack of encouragement in society with both men and women but seems like the guys ain't doin so good right now and that's not good for anyone...a bit more encouragement could go a long way
@@joanofarcxxithe problem is that boys aren't allowed to grow into quality men. The current culture puts down boys and promotes girls as.the special ones. It takes a long period of unlearning all that BS for a boy to truly become a man in adulthood.
@joanofarcxxi yes you're correct about respect. Yet, purpose is extremely lacking in society. Men and women aren't encouraged to be a yin and yang helping one another dynamic. It's all consumerism, work work work, and no emphasis on family the core of a healthy and functioning society. That's what gets lost in all these discussions. We're social creatures and our society no longer encourages what gives us ultimate purpose. Men and women need each other, both are best together not one above or below the other
Men don't get respect often even when they do earn it. The amount of shit men get for just being men, eg. All the "men are violent", " men are abusive", and "all men are shit" or other of verbal or nonverbal varieties of that attitude are widespread.
There is definitely a double standard in that men are expected to give their full support for women's causes. Just acting like you don't care is enough to get you labelled as a misogynist. However going the other way women are free to brush off men's issues. It's no surprise that so many men have become bitter by all the double standards that benefit women yet having to be continuously bombarded by messaging that society still doesn't do enough for women.
I'm not on the anti Barbie wagon, but I simply can't imagine a movie with the roles reversed seeing the light of day these days.
That's true, I've spoken to a few hardcore feminists who were shocked that I, as a man, was not interested into this kind of discourse. I'm all for an equal society and questioning gender roles but do I really have to get deep into the feminist literature to be doing that? Of course not, just like I don't devote my free time to environmentalism and still do my best to be a responsible consumer and believe that we should take better care of our planet. It's only a matter of finding the axis you want to sit on and then acting in consequence, obsessing over it and making it your ''life mission'' is often pointless unless you get educated and become seriously invested into it to bring some change through your hard work but most people are not doing that, they just get very emotionally invested into something and then feel helpless and resentful because those are tough problems that they can't even tackle. It's important to concentrate your time and efforts onto something where you can actually make a difference. So yeah, I take my time to try and understand men's problems because I and the people around me are mostly lost men. I'm working on straightening myself out and then maybe I might go back to school someday because I'd like to be able to work with men who have debilitating porn addiction because this is where I was only a few years ago and there's little to no help for us people. There are dozens of organisms that help women, immigrants and LGBTQ people but good luck finding one that helps men other than an anger issues management therapy (which get funding because the victims are mostly women and children).
Yes because the progressive morality is based on using your morals against you to get you to 'do the right thing', but when they are asked to do the right thing, they simply ignore it because that is not THEIR moral view. "Your moral code demands that you treat me well, therefore you must, but my moral code does not demand that I treat you fairly, therefore, I won't."
@@montgomeryscot6623 the Barbie movie was the roles reversed. It’s a reflection of reality but much worse. Did you watch it? It couldn’t of been more clear. Also movies throughout history have been the roles reversed as well
Exactly
Chris talked recently with another guest who made a very striking observation about how the women's movement demanded men speak more about their feelings and what was troubling them, but then doesn't ever want to actually listen to the answers unless those answers are the ones they want to hear. That Christine highlights a number of comments on her article to the effect that "Yes, we know there's a men's crisis, why are we still talking about it?" just goes to show how accurate the above statement is. The women's movement wants to hear men agreeing that toxic masculinity and the patriarchy are getting in womens' way. They do not at all want to hear that browbeating individual men will never get them onside, or that men as a class are experiencing a cultural identity crisis that the last decade or so of the women's movement is in no small way responsible for.
Which guest?
@@jakebushey5333 Don't recall unfortunately. I think it was a short clip taken from a full interview though, so that might help find it.
@@XXXX-yc6wv she also can’t understand men’s problems because she’s a feminist and feminist are a huge part of why men are oppressed and she can’t be a feminist and realize some of the things that need to be fixed because they go against each other because feminism actively tries to oppress men. It’s like being a Nazi Germany and asking society what is wrong with the Jews and why are they struggling? They are actively oppressing men and then trying to figure out why the men are struggling
to take xx.s('s concerns plus verbal excretions) seriously does imply to dismiss those (and xx.s, ultimately) at all. ENOUGH. respect (y)ourselves, gents.
@@VaronPlateando I'm the one with verbal excretions? WTF does "xx.s('" mean?
I was giving a co-worker a ride and she literally came up with a reason to create conflict between us I just stared at her and didn't say a word and then she said yeah I guess I try and push that feminist thing too much ... like yeah I'm doing you a favor and I get called a bastard it's , it's crazy just because I was born a dude if thats not discrimination I don't know what is
I get this too at work; however, it's usually middle-aged men, not feminists, who become obsessed by me. My go-to response is just to laugh at them and inform them to grow up and stop acting like a five-year-old. It works like a charm! They become so inraged by my presence that everything I do around them annoys them and makes them embarrass themselves around others. So far, I'm 3-0, all dismissed from work for threatening to either fight me or try to have others kill me on their social media pages! LOL I was in the army reserves, and an officer once shared some of his wisdom with me; he said, "Smart generals pick their battle fields." I never forgot that lesson.
You gave a female co-worker a ride? Are you trying to get fired or imprisoned?
My first thought too.
@@securitysupremepretty clear they are not “obsessed with you”, but rather fed up with you because of your attitudes, and you really can’t blame them after decades of mistreatment by feminists, so get over yourself…
@@cube252002 They became so obsessed with me that it ended up destroying them in the end. One posted dead threats on his social media account, trying to incite violence against me; another threatened to fight me multiple times in front of others; and my favourite one, the third, got hospitalised by a contractor because he tried to smash my car windows. All of these losers were fired, and from what I keep hearing, they are either getting divorced or losing their children as a result of job losses, long-term unemployment, or domestic violence. I have no idea what feminism has to do with these examples, but all of these guys protested about me personally taking positions of higher pay multiple times. It started funny enough with childish comments, rumours spreading, and the hilarious occasional rude comment. But one of the best things about having so much hatred towards you is that literally everything you do will piss them off, so it was only a matter of time until I grinded them down into nothing, and they acted like they had nothing to lose! LOL
She's so close to understanding, and yet everything she proposes comes from the standard playbook. More male nurses isn't going to fix the problem.
As a woman I don't think I'd like a man caring for me when I was ill
Literally, what will? Men need drive and purpose . Whose going to hand it to them? I have no idea. They used to have purpose by default and now they have to actually go and find it. No one can do it for them. I think. What are we missing?
@@V.Hansen. In my view men need good women to form long term relationships with. Nothing motivates a man like a woman worth his effort. Beyond that, I'd say men need a commitment to some moral vision bigger than themselves - maybe a country or a religion, or a secular replacement for a religion if that's not your cup of tea. It's a tall order.
@@grannyannie2948 We're not going to change society to help men, so don't worry about being cared for by a man. Higher chance of dying from one's gunshot wound because he's so desperate for some kind of attention and feeling of control over his life that he starts seeing every person as an enemy and decides to shoot up a public space. Violent outbursts will continue to become more and more common as there are more and more men feeling like they have nothing to lose. Good luck out there.
This is why I stopped listening to women altogether. They almost never bring any value to these topics. I can count on ONE hand the actual women who understand the severity of these issues and accurately know what is wrong. Needless to say, they've been "canceled" and/or ignored by the main stream.
I'd really urge as many men as possible to form groups with your closest mates at work, or through sports, or some other mutual endeavour, and enjoy time together exclusively without women and doing activities together. I have joined a number of paternities over the last couple of years, and it's changed my mental health significantly.
Amen 🙏 we are NOT built to be around these creatures 24/7 😂❤
Yes! I’d like to back this comment as a witness of the positive effect of forming groups of dudes. My boyfriend use to have only a few friends he’d hang out with sporadically and spend a lot of his free time alone or with me. He has significantly changed, for the better, since being part of a group of men who do most of their activities amongst all-men. He’s become more ambitious, happier, more playful but also more mature. All positives! Men need to surround themselves with other good men (and not just in their workspace).
Depends on the type not everyone is the same, but many men can benefit from these classic versions of man circles, literal and digital campfires work also really well. Good that you seek those out, as they do you good.
I totally agree. Unfortunately in my little nook of this planet, many men only groups were infiltrated by a small cohort of women who had no interest in the group itself, they just couldn't handle men having a space. Some even went to court. Anyway, your point is spot on.
I would try that, but I never fit in anywhere.
"Women bond face to face. Men bond shoulder to shoulder." Exactly.
Men, in general, don’t complain, making their struggles invisible to most. As a wife and the mother of a sweet little boy, I thank you for bringing this topic forward.
Thank you for being a mom that takes interest in your sons well being
i dont wanna make this a back and forth gender thing but fyi men don't complain because when we do we're punished. not just by women but also not just by men either. And personally I'm not sure men not complaining needs to change. if anything everyone should keep complaining to a minimum.
Absolutely. But, to point that out is to admit that there is a LOT of complaining goings on and some of us have difficulty admitting any faults or taking accountability.
We do talk about our problems, just not to women because it is filed away as ammunition for future use, that and we are dismissed and listed too because we are “entitled” as men, therefore can’t possibly have problems, while at the same time dismissed as being misogynists and incel for daring to false claim we have problems to distract From important issues women face.
Men don't complain, b/c it makes no sense for a man to complain. Women complain to get sympathy. Women hate when men are trying to come up with the solutions. Women don't need solutions when they complain. As anybody else they know what to do - eat healthy & exercise & have a healthy schedule & sleep... It a well known fact in Therapy. Women don't need solutions, they want sympathy. *Women love to complain to other women. Women tell eachother what they want to hear & lie to eachother... When a man complains, we consider it a huge red flag. He knows what to do like everybody else. If he is not doing it, he is incapable man & can't have a family. A man can't start complaining at war or work ... Men can't complain even to their women & friends & children. It doesn't solve the problems & only make people to think that you are an idiot. * And it's not my view. Everyone knows it. The majority of people believe that Feminists hate men.
Interesting discussion…. wasn’t going to comment on this one, as there was simply too many things. God bless her for attempting the dialogue, however even with her apparent openness, the blindness for why men are checking out is deafening. Thank you for commenting on the fatherlessness issue. It is, imo, one of the biggest issues at play on this topic. Modern society, family law, feminism has obliterated fatherhood.
Well, yeah, it's a problem when men are failing because of how their failures might negatively affect some women's expectations
Men obliterated fatherhood. Men weren’t there throughout History. They didn’t even know where their kids went to school
@@pcap8810 Single, married, or widowed mothers, all motherhood is unassailable and sanctified as the most difficult job
I fully agree mate. She was kinda nudging in the right direction, and I really did enjoy most of what she said. But it was a slight disappointment to hear that the solution of one the biggest societal elephants in the room was a message akin to “men, do better”, rather than, hey, there may be systemic shite at play preventing fathers from being there for their kids.
Ok boomer. She literally said nothing of value.
A myth is that women in the past were dainty flowers sitting at home. They were working fields, delivering babies, working in factories , scrubbing floors , caring for the elderly/ which is often heavy manual labor … should we be appreciative - respectful of men and all they do in society ? Yes 100% ❤
Yes, during WWI, while the men were overseas, women were back home felling trees, shoveling coal, working with poisons in munitions factories, building planes and guns, being police officers and jailors. That is why women got the vote in 1920. After they had taken over the grunt work and skilled labor, it was hard to convince women that they were too daisy-like and fragile to cast a ballot. A generation of young men had come back from Europe with modern eyes too. They had faced death and they were open to change because they had seen other cultures. I am in my 6th decade of life and so grew up in a more traditional time. The "no fault divorce" had just arrived. There was one female news anchor and then Maggy Thatcher came along. I really wouldn't have known about the problems of modern men without watching Chris' show. I don't know if older people are really aware of the trends.
@@cosmicartsastrologicalserv242 The no fault divorce is terrible thing.
@@divisadero8859 The beginning of the end.
@@cosmicartsastrologicalserv242 Yes, one of many factors that are pulling society down.
researchers consistently fail to address the magnitude of this issue. People ultimately need love and validation. When a man doesn't matter to a woman, when she doesn't gaze at him with a loving smile, tell him she wants him/needs him, that he matters to her. A lot of guys have never had that. This will cause disillusionment/isolation/soul sadness and mental health issues in men. No amount of material things, por* will be able to replace that. The problem in the west is 2 fold. Incels can't get a woman and the ones that do get one, end up in divorce/breaking up or being cheated on and losing more than the lady. So they swear off relationships and end up lonely all the same. (Mgtow) Both have the effect of creating lonely, angry, atomised ppl and broken society with plummeting birth rates. And can spell the end of that society. What are we seeing in the west now? Falling sperm counts, falling testosterone levels, births, marriage, anomie and a rapidly ageing society, with catastrophic debt levels. White ppl used to have close family bonds but now they no longer keep ties with family and send old ppl to homes. Jobs for life are a thing of the past, from where they used to form friends. White ppl lost their matchmaking culture and used to marry form within their own tried and tested social circle. With all that now gone, internet dating and cold approaching/PUA random women that u know nothing about is the way. Which can be dehumanising and toxic. Peace
I've thought a lot about what male role models we have in the public sphere. There is one man that comes to mind for me, who and he is not typically associated with men's causes. I think that Keanu Reaves is an excellent role model, he has this inspiring blend of wholesome traits. He seems to have a strong sense of what he values and he sticks to them, along with a deep sense of kindness and authenticity that lacks arrogance.
No doubt
I absolutely love how she says men need to be better, totally misses the point that single mothers are tragic failure especially when raising boys. Also, neither person points out that masculine traits developed will be those preferred by women. What it means to be a man will be a person who successfully reproduces.
Indeed. A mostly useless, blue pilled discussion.
Single moms are tragic failures. I see.....wonder why they where/are single?
Those were my thoughts too.
Standard modern feminist, men's problems are men's to solve and wholly under their control. Women's problems are societies problems and it's up to men to fix it for them
Exactly !
Talk to a women about masculinity is like talk to a soccer player about hockey… it amusing but baseless
It's very annoying.
Exactly. She used a lot of words to reveal the fact she understands jack shit about masculinity.
Men are not lost. They’re opting out.
This. 👏🏻
I don’t fault men for not getting married and not getting involved in serious relationships. That said, I do fault the Men that don’t even want to work and just want to endlessly complain about society and women .. I mean, if guys truly want to go their own way then go do it! You don’t need to binge watch this content and Make sure you say it in every comment section
@@brianmeen2158 maybe ask yourself why are you angry at what other men choose to do?
@@brianmeen2158 What would we work for? Also, we would we leave the social debates and politics completely to women? While working hard... Are you okay? Bumped your head?
They just want us back on the plantation.
Men are expected to “marry down” , but women are discouraged to do so. Men are disposable. We always will be. Just live your life and set hard boundaries for those you let into your life.
Virtually always true... until you get over 60 when we start increase in rarity value. I'm being targetted by a Doctor - way above my pay grade tho I'm not that bad. She's great so I think I'll ask her out. Women still won't do the asking. Why? Being rejected? Well its not great but keep it affable and low key ... " Hi my friend is ill and I've got a spare ticket for" This appeals to a man's gallantry and not too direct. "I'm going to town tomorrow but ... I don't know ... its a bit of a drive/ I've got to pick up a ...?/ its not a great part of town.
Men are not “expected” to marry down. Men simply do not care about social status and provider-ship of their wife. That’s simple biology.
Men get to experience joy because we're disposable. Women get to feel anxiety because they're (reproductively) indispensable. Forced to choose, I'd take the former, every time.
Given the fact that men do all the important stuff around the world and there are literally billions of people with overpopulation being a huge issue: It is now the other way around.
I'll actually be "marrying down" as a woman, but I see how good of a househusband my fiance will make and a good father to our future children. So I don't feel at all like I'm losing out, but gaining as someone who's always been more career oriented.
Chris and Christine spoke at length about the necessity of mentors and role models; I wonder if there's been any look into the elimination of male-specific spaces and the effect upon this? One example that made the rounds in the media awhile ago was the Boy Scouts of America opening their program to girls as well. The organization was originally founded as a way to socialize boys with each other while providing mentorship from men in the areas of life skills and leadership. Personal opinion, I've always felt that adding the social dynamic of women being present completely changes the experience, particularly when it comes to socialization. It very much seems to me there are no men's only spaces anymore. Where would a young man go these days to find a mentor, unless they already had a personal connection with one?
Well stated. Great points.
Feminists hate male spaces and have actively sought to destroy them for years.
Very well said. Men only spaces are considered troublesome and sexist, but women only isn't. I learned so much being allowed to have male spaces as a young man. Boy scouts is a perfect example. I loved it. Now I would never recommend it. Crazy part? Girl scouts already existed. They had to destroy the boy's space anyway.
BOYS GO TO THE STREETS AND FIND MENTORS, WHICH IS A WHOLE OTHER PROBLEM
Boy Scouts didn’t allow girls in, they were FORCED to take in girls as well, that’s part of the problem, it happened in Canada in the late 80’s-early 90’s, that’s when my parents left scouting and pulled me and my brother out of the program, it has become just another girls club, from leadership down that occasionally let’s subjugated boys in…
This conversation is 10 years too late, men are checking out, and I dont think they are coming back.
men already checked out a long time ago. Men checked out already such a long time ago that young men have to go on the internet to find out what it means to be a man. It all comes down to that men have no rights, woman select through sex, men through resources. Mens money is being taken away through force through inflatoin, taxes, child support. Money is a mans selection, you might smash that one girl, but not gonna spend any money on her. But in our society if its your kid, doesnt even have to be biological, automatically through marriage (marriage has always existed to scam men) you as a man have to pay for it, you are not allowed to exercise your biological natural selection which is saying no to paying.
Checking out of what? Life? We're welcome to "checkout" all we want - but, last time I checked, the Earth is still spinning...
@@MH3GL last time I checked birthrate everywhere is below 2, most people are overweight and we are on the verge of nuclear war, but idk, maybe we dont live on the same Earth, pretty sure Earth will do fine without humans, the question is is it still good for us
I’m glad she cares but I couldn’t finish this episode. Dismissing Jordan Peterson takes more than “off the rails” and “attention seeking” I just can’t handle. That guy changed men’s lives and knows the literature. You don’t have to agree with him, but it’s hugely unreasonable that a hand wave can dismiss him and the good he’s done. She’s found the problem, but it doesn’t feel like she understands men enough to be a part of the solution.
Thanks, you just saved me about an hour and 10 minutes of time. I’ll stop watching now knowing this. I sincerely appreciate your comment.
She started that sentence with saying she like him at first and only in the last couple of years has she found him a little off the rails which is a sentiment I've heard echoed several times. I'm a huge fan of Peterson and even I find his positions a little hard to take at times. That doesn't mean this writer doesn't care. I mean she wrote a hugely researched piece with the intention of placing more of a light on the problems faced by men. So what if she doesn't like one of your heroes? Does that dismiss her overall ethos within this conversation? If I used your line of logic I could never listen to anyone since we all hold perspectives that are disagreeable to others.
A woman will never fully understand a man’s problems just as a man will never fully understand women’s problems
@@dahliaherrod4301 and I started my comment with “I’m glad she cares” and gave this episode about 30+ minutes and skipped ahead to see if she had anything valuable as a solution and she just doesn’t have much to offer. My point however is regardless of how you feel about Jordan’s views on other issues he’s an accredited psychologist and teacher. He’s not some guy just making stuff up. So to dismiss his message and say he’s just some right wing guy (he’s a classical liberal) is a pretty ignorant way to characterize things. My issue isn’t that she disagrees with a man I like. It’s because he is right and she’s implying he’s not. Jordan solved the problem we know what the answer is already and people want to ignore it. I gave it a chance I don’t respect people who try to discredit people instead of ideas.
@@TylerjWebb Well firstly, Chris pretty explicitly stated he brought her on because she's a black woman who supports the need to highlight men's' problem within her article. She's a writer by trade. She wasn't there to offer solutions. Second of all, I don't like that she dismissed his work either, but she effectively summed up his solution in the last 15 minutes of the interview that you didn't watch where she advocated for personal responsibility. I think it's a mistake to dismiss people because they don't like the same people you do. Even Jordan advocates in 12 Rules for Life to listen to those you hate because they probably know something you don't. If at the end of all that you still took nothing from someone like her, get mad at Chris for bringing her on.
Men are not lost. We're just going out own way. One that society doesn't like.
I'm one of those older guys who mentors younger men. However, the headwind we both have in so doing is push-back from the women in the young men's lives, either specifically telling them old guy ways perpetuate patriarchy or telling them they just prefer the newer "evolved" sort of man. A preference which typically in fairly short time results in those women not being romantically attracted to those men desperately trying to figure out how to be what it is those women want. I repeat my advice to be themselves as they work on developing integrity (operating in objective truth) and character (the ability to follow through on a decision after spirit in which it was made has passed). Their response is that the women tell them those are the qualities they want, but when the time comes for truth-telling or executing an unpopular decision those same women ratchet up the wrath. I've seen and heard this more and more over the past 15 to 20 years. Truly saddening to watch their learned helplessness as they find themselves in what seems like an inescapable no-win situation.
I tell young men to ignore what women say. It's all pleasant sounding bullshit anyway. Be fearless and stop trying to navigate the cultural maze. Learn to trust and follow your own judgment.
"Keep your progressive credentials upfront Christine" pretty well sums this podcast up.
😂😂😂
There's a definite feeling of this. More than a few few blood boiling moments. I just finished Chris' podcast with George TheTinMen, and while he's a Labour supporter, and had lefty points, he parked them at the door, and acknowledged them where he thought they might be of some utility, not just to say them. Some of the things this lady says are made of straw and it rankles.
progressivism is like a wolf dressing as a shepherd and herding the sheep toward a cliff; for those who can't read between the lines, the devil is laughing it up as part of society abandons God then wonders why the same society is crumbling around them because there's no solid foundation
Hard to listen to. I feel she is a bit too cringey and predictable in how she discusses both men and women.
Is that not the point? The podcast format is more about bringing different viewpoints to the table and dissecting it, not to teach the guest anything
education is absolutely seeped in man-bashing
Clearly Andrew Tate has made feminists stop and think...hey if we keep running programs in schools to call boys toxic and potential rapists, then maybe the boys will stop listening to us. Andrew Tate has been a wake up for the toxic messages feminists have been putting out
Education, media, the court system. Open and nonstop misandry.
@@maxn.7234 It's intentional. Frankfurt school stuff.
@@chinchilla415Destruction of the nuclear family.
The core problem is not that there is no alternative vision for male role model, but that women's revealed preference is that they do not want a romantic relationship with that "ideal" male role that society is pushing.
I would love to hear her thought process when she hits 60. I’m a spiritual crone at 70. Raised 5 children. Survived M1 cancer. Listening to this is like listening to a child.🙏 She hasn’t “put any numbers up on the board”.
My thoughts exactly.
I think "thought process" is a very generous way pf phrasing it
I’m 46 and still feel I don’t know my place in the world as a man. It’s been a reoccurring theme through life and only feels deeper the older I get. Really great to hear these conversations about men being brought out more.
don't worry bro it will all be over soon
@@SpaceExplorerHahaha, honestly though, what makes you so sure?
Provide and protect.. or invent n produce .. same as it’s always been
Did you grow up in a fatherless home I wonder.
@brianmeen2158 assuming providing and protecting appeal to you
The “We live in a society” Internet meme aged like fine wine.
Our society is based on what marketing groups thought would sell and trend. Not what's good for society. And the collapse of digital media and Hollywood Is the result
Send a link?
@@tpl2023Watch Sandman2 and you’ll see all the most troubling memes that you’ll ever want to see. The “Memes of the Week” are incredibly entertaining
Sociopaths, male or female, tend to rise partly because while they can be happy or angry they're never sad. Depression never holds them back.
After reading Christine's article... aren't women also lost? Generations of women fought for being seen/equality and they had their goals set for having a family and kids and a good life. Now everything was accomplished in the fight for being equal decades ago. Now they are going wild. Many women are a stray and become irresponsible, out of touch with their femininity and foremost with any accountability in life. They are teached that they can do no wrong and they don't need to change anything about themselves but the world has to change. With the ongoing promiscuity and sites like OF, many women removed themselves from the dating market. They are no longer a goal for men to have a family with. Many aren't worth the time and effort.
Do you need to ask even? Both sexes are so dependent on each other that if one goes to hell, the other will follow. Our societies degrade so much that we do not even see anymore how rotten things are. Listen to anyone talking about how life was in 1930-60 and compare it to now.
Reading her article just today, I agree. Some of her observations are on point, and her solution is still the very exact thing that created this issue, womanism. She effectively sees _some_ of the problem, and absolutely not the rest of the problem. It's a literal blind spot to her. What's worse, is the majority of the comments under her article… deplorable. It's an army of misandrists, essentially laughing at the issue. I read that while thinking in my head "don't you women understand that this is how you are going to go backwards ? Nevermind solving the issue, but laughing at it as if it's deserved, this is how you're going to lose some of the rights you have acquired !". The more things like this get explored and talked about, the more I'm getting convinced that _womanism in its entirety_ was a mistake, even the basic premise for its existence. It's like the more we give women, the more disgusting things get, how are they managing that ?
@@lonewaer Why are you calling it womanism btw?
There is nothing feminine about that movement.
I think its because now that they have freedom and legal equality they realized that no matter how legally equal they are they will never be equal to men on their own. Not physically, not economically, and not socially. And that their entire world and even their equality was created by and handed to them by men. And that only happened because men were too exhausted from fighting the two largest wars the world has ever seen to keep on like they were doing. It's the same as a spoiled rich kid being handed the family fortune and business, they act out and are mentally broken because they don't have to work for anything and were handed an empire. Got a college degree? Special scholarships and initiatives to get more female students. Got that nice stem job after graduating? Because of DEI and female empowerment initiatives. Just replace DEI and empowerment initiatives with daddy's money and connections and you've got it. That's why modern feminist are so allergic to responsibility, they've been handed everything and constantly told that they deserve the world because they are special just like a spoiled rich kid.
Would love to see Chris sit down and talk to any of these men that have checked out of society, I want to hear what these men have to say, usually I get more insight from the comment section of these types of videos than I do from so called experts studying them, the men are telling you whats really going on, it's all out in the open. I've come to the conclusion that no one that needs to listen to them actually cares what they have to say.
He could go to any of the MGTOW channels as that is their thing.
Yeah, it's really weird. If I, as a guy, invited over a young woman to discuss what life is like for older women, then everyone would shout that I should be inviting an older woman and hearing her perspective. But when it's men checking out of society, no one even reads their posts, let alone invite them onto the show.
@@lightworker2956How do you know that no one is reading their posts?
@@dumfriesspearhead7398 Obviously some people are reading the posts of those guys, but I don't get the feeling that Chris himself is, based on some comments he's made in some of his videos. I know that's vague and I could be wrong, just my impression.
@@lightworker2956 My guess it's all about notoriety of the guest speaker, in order to garner more clicks, Chris and everyone else who tries to speak on men's behalf is incentivized to bring on people who are well known and in the know, rather than speak directly to the people hes trying to understand.
I suddenly realized that the term "toxic masculinity" requires 2 additional words: toxic shaming of masculinity.
Too many women respond to being treated like shit, then wonder why they are in bad relationships.
Its only toxic because men have strengths that women can’t attain.
Toxic masculinity is a clinical term that only applies to a very small subset of toxic men (it came out from studying violent incarcerated men, and from having been to prison, I can tell you that these men exist) but popular media has mistakenly (but willingly) attributed it to all of masculinity and turned it into something else completely, thus poisoning the discussion around masculinity. I really hope that this term can finally fall into the same category as mansplaining and manspreading and that we'll finally stop talking about it.
@@nackedgrils9302 Those men exist but there behavior has nothing at all to do with masculinity, hence the problem. There is no evidence that those criminals are that way because of any form of masculinity. Clinically homosexuality use to be considered a mental illness, but nowadays we know better. The clinicians have a lot of blood on there hands, its there fault that this term is used like that.
There are arseholes everywhere, it's not down to what you have in your pants. My ex called my 14 year old son toxic, without even comprehending how much of a horrible cunt that makes her.
Im 30, and it feels like the position society wants me to have, is outside of society. Like society just wants me gone from society? I don't know if other guys feel that way.
The two most popular posters about feminism in 60s Berkeley were, “Women Hold Up Half the Sky” and “A Woman needs a Man like a Fish Needs a Bicycle”. Guess which attitude won out.
Father's are absent because of women's choices and actions. Single mothers are single because women choose to exclude the father - either from divorce or social security etc.
Not exclusively but yeah
For those who do not believe you. Few examples from what I've seen of "single mother". #1 Woman reaches 35 years, wants a kid but she is still single. So she makes it with the first guy she can and often even without his consent. No wonder he either leaves her instantly or after few years. Yes, he is an asshole for creating a kid and leaving, but in the end. Men have no say in abortion or in anything really so all they are left is with running. And they are still considered bigger assholes for running than woman for killing. #2 Few guys I know made the same stupid mistake: "I am a good earner, so you do not have to work, just take care of kids, easy life." So easy that they got bored and ruined all of their lives. Most of the time those wives are doing all they can to alienate the father. #3 Standard non-working marriage divorced when the kids are around 10 years old. These kids mostly still have both parents though, just separated.
In 2005, i was in my mid 20s and was doing a leadership course for work. One of the things i wrote for myself as a simple goal was to "be a man now" as i was still a man-child, bit of a victim, avoiding responsibility etc. When i said this to the group, the first reaction was a nasty "What does that mean?" from one of the women. I actually had to defend it with a reasoned response, which now i look back, it was just a toxic and undermining experience. That's almost 20 years ago
how dare you! what a misogynistic wish. /s
Question: how is that nasty? Unless the tone of it was uncalled for. As a woman, if a 20-something grown man wrote “be a man now” as a goal, I’d ask the same question as it’s unclear to me what it means.
Even as a young man I never was a victim,thought of myself as a victim, or avoided responsibility, I worked hard tried to make myself useful and helpful, let alone stand up and tell the world I had to be better, (and yes I was immature back in my teens) but I instinctively knew I had to make myself useful. Mayb it’s the office setting you were in, (I’m in construction going on 37years) but I’ve never had to say sorry for being a man, or had to say I’m a man child…….
@phreaquetalk To be a man is to realize that one only has their parents at the bare minimum and maximum extended family that care about them. Society as a whole could careless if a man is homeless or in trouble; it is their responsibility to improve their situation regardless of how feasible that is, or how impossible. And so, unbecoming a victim is important to become a man, as no one cares for a man outside of one own family. As one family does not live forever, a one needs to learn how to become independent and semi-self-sufficient; self-regulating emotions and self-serving needs and wants. To become a mature man, one realizes that violence towards others should be restraint, and that it should be used sparsely. Massive shows of forces, and impulsive use of violence to get one way is the sign of immaturity. Respect is used through work, experience and amiable behavior; not through the childish tantrum of a man-child or the feminist scream of victimhood. A mature man also realizes kindness is the greater good to restraint violence, and that they can attract other more effectively to them through kindness. Human kindness is a greater good, it is the only thing that can effectively reduce human suffering. Only through kind acts can human genuinely help one another. Due to the role men play in human society; men bare both the suffering posed by existence itself and by the burdens of society; first to be throw into wars, first to be selected for manual labor, first to be denied medical care and kindness. Men just like woman require kindness to reduce their mortal suffering; but yet men are the most commonly denied. And so, to be a man it means to suffer in silence. To hope one day that someone as enough to replicate the kindness that a man can experience from their of family.
@@barrydaemi6287 I don’t know where u get the idea that woman don’t experience all these things. To be a woman is to experience exactly the same. Nobody cares about woman any more than anyone cares about anyone. Yes woman get sexual attention but that means nothing.
tbh I don't care what the media tells woman go be an astronaut w/e, but what was seriously fucked up in the last 20 years and took me a lot of time to get around was not necessarily needing encouragement, but being actively discouraged. That is fucked up, and now that I'm awake, that's what I'm pissed about.
I would like to see this woman on a podcast with Jordan peterson and explain how hes off the rails
From the video description: "But it begs the question of why it's come down to a woman to raise the topic of men's issues." Really simple: because rich / successful men aren't complaining about men's issues. Rich / successful men are having a blast. And no one cares about or listens to struggling men.
Men don't care about the struggle of men
No we have listened to men That are struggling but they don’t have any practical solutions and listening to the same complaints over and over is exhausting and counter productive
@@wyleecoyotee4252 I don't think that's true at all. What world are you living in?
@@wyleecoyotee4252No one cares about the struggles of men. Both men and women are gynocentric.
It's a bit strange listening to Christine talk about the demise of men with a smile and laughter on her face. It is also strange that she says many women are making more money than their male counterparts. This flies in the face of the female workplace equity argument. She seems to like blurting out the words, "All men are garbage, as if she actually believes this herself. Sorry, but I will not be reading a book about men, written by a feminist female. When are men finally going to stand up and take back their masculinity?
I started regularly going into pubs when I was twenty. In pubs you would meet very old men, old men, middle-aged men etc. Through talking to men across the social spectrum, with different politics, earnings, marital status, ad infinitum. It broadens one's ability to act in society. I once saw a man in his sixties brow-beat a young thug in his twenties who was looking for trouble without leaving his bar-stool. It was an excellent example of non-verbal communication, of projecting masculinity in a positive way, avoiding violence and bullying. Now we have few proper pubs where generally men socialise. If you're married and thirty-five having marital problems, most won't look for help, but in a traditional pub, the old guys would have been there and done it, advice would flow, stress was reduced, marriages saved. We've lost that.
Make Pubs great again!! I guess that would mean making it men's only or by invitation, there has got to be a way to keep women quiet on the subject and keep them out. Like a pub that always changes its address on each night of the week🤔🤔 Let's face it tho...women will find a way to destroy it, we all know women can't stand seeing men congregate.
"Why does it seem like only women are talking about this issue?" "I... Think women... Are just better... At this sort of thing..." Totally not because men who do get silenced or labeled as misogynists. Can't POSSIBLY be the case.
Why is she putting Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate in the same box?
because she is a feminist that does not know better
Family courts needs more eyes on it.
Yep. If people actually care about men, then stop with the endless psycho-analysis of them. Instead just make the laws fair, e.g. have family court stop discriminating (in practice) against men.
Men are not lost...men have had the deck stacked against them...Thank you femenism
She looks so happy when she says "it took *someone like me* to write this". Too happy
Event if there are 1,000,000,000 feminists on this planet, there's still really only 1 of them at the end of the day. What a crippled and constipated way to exist.
She got attention. That's basically currency.
I think you missed a very important point to respond to at around the 15 minute mark. Christine says a good man should figure out what his "duty and responsibilities are", to which someone should point out that feminism only ever talks about duty and responsibility with relation to men. In fact, everyone usually frames these duties and responsibilities as what men should do *for women*. Meanwhile feminism is very hands off when it comes to saying anything about any duty or responsibility that women should have, and even less so about any duty or responsibility that women should have toward men.
The conversation is about masculinity and manhood. Not women. Everyone has duties and responsibilities in a society and women typically do their part, but women don't have specific duties and roles to men, just like men don't have specific duties and roles to women. We are supposed to be a peaceful productive society filled with people who believe in helping others. I've never heard any feminist talking points express what men should do for women, other than not hurting women and granting them freedom. Maybe they've spoken about men giving women opportunities, but that's what great societies do ... they help others. The concern is that men are struggling with finding meaning and a place in the modern world. Christine literally says at 14:20 men and women are different and both sexes have strengths/skills that can be used to benefit others, but she specifies men because the topic of the conversation is men. Women are present and active in society, much more so than men. When compared to men, women are more likely to take care of the children they create, more likely to have higher education, more likely to teach, more likely to caregive, more likely to be employed, more likely to own a home whereas men are more likely to commit violent crimes, to be homeless, to steal, to become drug addicts/alcoholics, to commit suicide. So yes, men need to figure out what their "duties and responsibilities" are to others (and that includes women) because if 50% of the population (males) don't believe in doing for others, that means you're just a parasite who only cares about your own interests and has no desire to see anyone else prosper.
Exactly, it has always been the same, men are told to account for obligations and duties while women are given leg ups and passes for everything. You want sexual relations to become normal? instill obligations and duties that is normative to the female sex and the men will follow as they often do when they see a fair shake. Right now, young men are seeing nothing worthwhile beyond sex when interacting with a woman because women offer nothing but sex, and you can chock this up to alot of factors present in modernity, for instance feminism is a big reason as to why sexual relations are in such a horrid state atm, another one is the digitization of relations, another one is the existence of items like the pill. A man desires their own progeny, a loyal wife, and a stable home, a woman desires their own progeny, a dependable husband, and a stable home, to get these items there are behaviors and archetypes that the majority ought to follow and unfortunately for leftists, the easiest and the most effective way to structure a complementary system between the sexes falls in line with the traditional archetypes of a homely woman and a dependable man Feminism, from Betty Friedan to Bell Hooks, is mixed up with a muddled idea that women are free when they serve their employers but slaves when they help their husbands.
@@plantbased9502Ya, NO. That’s not what he meant
@@kwazooplayingguardsman5615VERY well said and much appreciated. You nailed it
Alhumdulliah. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the UK, Europe, the USA, and the whole world. So they must be getting married and having kids and families. We follow the guidance of God and it clearly defines what to do and what not. And the appropriate dynamics between the men and women that lead to a lasting, fruitful relationship. Oh, and it also tells us what a woman is! Peace
It's not just the economic, and gender ideology aspect, it is also that men are disadvantaged and maligned in every almost every social, sexual, legal and cultural sphere.
Well, the 90% of us men.
As black man, i admire the way she (as a black woman) is addressing men's issue with emapthy and objectivity. That is very difficult taks and delicate balance to strike. I hope we can go from conversations into policies and actions. I personally think individualism in its radical form in america has to be addressed. Then we can talk about creating male- role model and male bounding activities for every racial and ethnic background. Boys only schools, reforming the boys scouts. Those are great places to start.
I didn't check out of the workforce due to LACK of support, and I don't see the abortion "roll back" as a regressive movement against women. This woman doesn't speak for all women, thank you very much.
Chris, I can't get enough of these mature and insightful podcasts on today's masculinity. Keep up the great work dude.
Absolute cringe...........
_"Mature and insightful"_ 💀💀💀 LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOO, on what planet? Woke-7664?
@@asparrow9876 Right?!!!!!!
@@asparrow9876 All I keep picturing, is circle jerks with a ton of narcissist tears.
A bit strange the way she seems to see JBP Ali G. as living in the same box and men's brains.. I see the two as totally different personalities, where I would love to work with/befriend one, and not let the other close to anything, that I cared about.
People have been talking about this for decades. That people are "finally comfortable enough" says it all about how complex an issue this is, and why these issues don't get the attention they warrant. And it's why I can't give her that much credit. She stands on the shoulders of giants; to use an (maybe unfair) analogy.
The best part of this interview was learning that you did Romance novel covers lol. Joking aside it was very good interview. Thank you for your content.
I'm 74 and in a way went through all this before all this came to pass. My wife was the high earner and I fell into the support roll. 19 years in I got dumped much like many women had happen when men turn to the younger women issue. It wasn't the same but there was resentment over being the higher earner and perhaps I didn't give back equally. I'm not blaming her though. I have been spending the last 40 years just attempting to understand. I suspect you will find the answers in the long marrieds who really love one another. A pattern I see there is people who really appreciate they true nature of love that the world misunderstands. Less about feelings and more about qualities found in saints. That brings back faith.
I think you are on the right path with saintly values. Society has become all about the emotions Aka 7 sins.. As for relationships just look at what is “expected” when it comes to marriage.. minimum spend on rings, minimum spend on wedding etc etc.. Lost in the emotions of worth, they become worthless to the relationship itself. As they say “tricked by business”.
Not your fault, I was married 12 years, last two I went from being primary earner to primary care giver as a result of the economic crash of oil, as a couple we both agreed that i would be stay at home dad as jobs that were available would not cover childcare expenses and she had secure well paid job. It took all of two years for her to become resentfully as a result of entitlement, despite me doing a very good job of being a home maker, she started heating, then abusive, eventually physically, where I left as a result. She resented having to take on the responsibility mostly reserved for men, while already enjoying the same if not more privileged men have.
@cube252002, @reflectiveFrankC thanks for sharing guys. that's scary stuff
I just want to know that I can be valued as a person, but every time the mainstream starts talking about what's going on with men, the problem they see is that there's nothing they can get out of us
Women are allowed to change society to fit them but men must adapt to the new "moment"
why care so much what they think of men? Go do your purpose .. it’s feminine to put so much caring into what people you don’t know think of you
@brianmeen2158 eventually i want to have a relationship and to start a family, but i know ahead of time that when I'm ready to date I'm going to find myself surrounded by people that are only there for selfish and superficial reasons.
Its never been a worse time to grow up male. 😅 Ive spent the last 15 years “fixing” myself only to find myself on a conveyor belt with carrot and stick. Even the best most positive people eventually grow dark and cold from this. I say this as someone who grew up fat and geeky and turned chad. Still not great. 😂🎉
Same.
I understand what youre saying but Id rather be alive today then being drafted and sent to France on the front lines of WWII like my grandfather. While living as a Black man facing jim crow laws, segregation and racism…ijs
@@d1powellyeah I really don’t think these guys are seeing now and history and objectively comparing the two. Men and women should be grateful for living in 2023 as opposed to day 1963.. the problem is, society and media have warped their minds into getting them to think we live in the worst of time. It’s ridiculous
@@brianmeen2158Comparing only objectively is the problem. Materialistically 2023 is better, safer, more comfortable, but I don't life for safety and I don't find meaning in comfort. I want to do _something_ and be well known and respected in my community. However even if I do well in my community right now I will still have to hear all the messages of how men are shit, abusive, toxic, violent, oppressive, and in other ways horrible. When I am seen that way simply for being a man I simply cannot find the will inside to work for this. That's why "objective" comparisons are simply not in any way useful here, because the problem of being a man today has nothing to do with material or objective and everything to do with the social. Unless you compare the social environments for men in 2023 and back then you simply cannot make a useful observation.
@@o.x.pI hear you about the 1950s. Funny the problems with society today were created by the children of those who fought in WW 2
I personally don't think that Sheilas can Bloke. The only female task that a male can't do is give birth, whereas females aren't good at risk management, stressful situation acceptance, spatial reasoning & planning, working in a team. We've tried to promote roles which use these skills to women, but with minimal return. Given this, why is a woman trying to tell men how to live. They have no idea how we work. None. They have continually gotten it wrong. Why would we look to them for any further solutions.
The reassuring aspect is that this is 100% unsustainable- so it will change even if it means the fall of society in the process
Exactly. Feminism and the insatiable female is not sustainable. Soon as any major event happens its right back to natural order which is full blown unapologetic patriarchy.
The moment she criticized Jordan Peterson was the moment she lost any credibility with me. I’ll give her kudos for the effort and for trying to step out of her Washington Post “woke” bubble, but her thesis and perspective exhibits a countless number of blind spots. If you’re looking for a grounded and comprehensive female perspective on this issue, Louise Perry is, far and away, the one worth listening. Bottom line, this masculinity crisis needs to be addressed immediately. It’s not just a crisis isolated to men and clearly not a zero-sum game. Rather, the storm clouds are already gathering and visible in terms of the boomerang affect that it will have (and, most likely, already has) on women-and, finally, let history be our warning for what tends to happen on a broader societal/civilizational level when you ignore the plight of a bunch of pissed off, disenfranchised, and marginalized men.
Jordan does have some flaws in his recent years though... Usually its a tonality with a us vs them comment, that he says with less grace/precision than he would normally. Speaking as someone who's consumed a huge amount of his content... He's a human, and isn't going to be perfectly positioned in everything he says. So I still have grace for his missteps and continue to value the good in some of the things he talks about.
@MAC... tonality? I dont mean you but I get mad when people look more at the way someone speak than the content of the message
I also have some heavy criticisms for JP, but for much different reasons. The primary one being that he wants men to extend their responsibility to women via today's institution of marriage, which is actually one of the most irresponsible things a man can do today. Everything he has to say about men's resonsibility over themselves is spot on though.
@@filthycasual9381 there are so many marriages that are succeeding. I understand mens hesitation with marriage in the modern age. But just because some are failing - there a plenty of marriages and families absolutely thriving - especially within religious communities. Don’t cop out bro. Petersons promotion of marriage and men taking on that responsibility is spot on. And women should be aspiring toward marriage, family, sacrifice and responsibility too. Don’t get me wrong. What else are you gonna do? Just opt out of having a family and kids at all? Because our legal system has some glaring holes, doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t continue fighting the good fight, work to fix it, and pursue good and wholesome institutions in the meantime. What happens when every man takes the easy way out and just chooses to not marry? It’s just such a cop out response to the fact that things aren’t perfect, and something might be ‘risky’. Plus, women take a huge risk too. I could stay with my husband, have and raise his kids, take care of him, sacrificing my career and super, only for him to leave me for someone younger when I hit peri menopause. It’s happened to quite a handful of women I know. And it’s absolutely devastating for them. So we all take risks. We can curl up and die, or we can face the risks and the challenges head on with courage and honour. I invest daily in my relationship with my husband, as well as my kids. Because when our kids are grown and gone, I still want him at my side, as my best friend and companion. So here’s hoping he never would do that to me lol but the fact remains, that he could 🤷🏻♀️ But I choose him over every other. Marriage is forgoing other opportunities to invest in one.
@@meghan8020 You're missing the point. Marriage is irresponsible because the underlying contract has been undermined to become an irreciprocal, disproportionate, and uninsured set of encodings that are mostly impressed upon men. Responsibility is when you limit your cooperative interactions to those that maintain individual sovereignty and reciprocal obligation. Marriage no longer meets this basic standard. It wouldn't matter if 100% of marriages were still 'successful' because participation in the institution is still participation in irresponsibility. I won't live with a gun to my head, even if I knew the trigger would never be pulled. I have far more self-respect than that. And I have far more self-determination than to be prodded by a woman trying to shame and ridicule me by framing that as a cop-out. Getting married is the easy way out. Forcing oneself to psychologically adapt away from the usual narrative regarding gender relations while still finding ways to extend responsibility is a much harder path. "What happens when every man takes the easy way out and just chooses to not marry?" ... What will happen is that the myriad female political organizations and lobbies will finally allow for legal reciprocity under marriage rather than continuing to undermine the institution. The only thing that seems to compel women to respect male human rights is the threat of banishment.
I do wish he stood up for Jordan Peterson. JP is a VERY strong force for good in this world
agreed, I can get people getting turned off and perturbed about the twitter shenanigans, but basically allowing JBP and Tate to be essentially considered equivalent "bad masculine" role-models throughout the episode was jarring.....
Education is not intelligence. Indifference is not hatred. Men build, women occupy.
Women choose not to procreate, men complain
Education is necessary for the unintelligent
I will continue to be masculine, my core nature. Those who don't take my lead will be left behind.
The big difference is woman, rightly want to define femininity and feminism. But woman also want to define what is masculinity is and men are not allow to define what is a man.
Welcome to the greatest new thoughts of the 1980's. All these issues were being recognized in the early 80's. and talked about in the 90's. But the hatred and exclusion of men was more important.
Someone needs to be blamed for women's problems, and it sure as hell isn't going to be them.
We do need male school teachers, male police, males in medicine - males in Banking, nursing etc. Men’s sheds is from Australia and it is a great thing - men do fix, build things together - it’s a great initiative and perhaps having a male youth for each adult. Laughing at the lawnmower side isn’t helpful - they can fix stuff and most under 35 yrs males cannot fix anything. It’s manly to fix things.
I am 43, I will never go out of my way to help a woman. Not my business, not my problem. This is absolutely the opposite of how I was raised. I see absolutely no point in helping people that hate me for how I was born or call me toxic for trying to help. So it's done, you are on your own. I will never have children because I will not subject my sons to being unwanted slaves used as societies punching bags or risk a daughter becoming a vile man hating leech that pretends they don't need men, aka modern women.
Thank you for it reproducing. 😅
if mansplaining is bad, so is femsplaining.
Even though she speaks on men's issues, she still refuses to make the distinction between "single parent households" and "single mother households." The study shown that single father households didn't show any difference against both parents. It shows that dads can do just as well by themselves as they can with a woman. Its women who struggle by themselves. We know this as factual but still courts give women no fault divorce and heavily favor mothers in family courts in regards to custody. Women are allowed to leave and take the kids more often than men leave the family. Most of the issue is caused by women. They choose to be single mothers knowing how detrimental it is for their children.
I like how Chris and his guests don't interrupt and talk over each other, or at least, not very often, and when they do, it's to reinforce.
Young men need their fathers in the home to learn to be good men, husbands, and fathers.
"The second you say toxic masculinity most men check out of the conversation" This is because if a person says "Toxic Masculinity" they are attacking men because they can't define what is and isn't "Toxic Masculinity" so why bother having a conversation when it is clear that the person who is talking to you doesn't know what they are talking about, and will be unwilling to admit it and if you press them for those definitions they will say that you are a toxic man. It is just a different way of having a conversation and you say something that disagrees with the other person's perspective and they say that's racist, and there is nothing you can do at the point because they have labelled you as something not worth interacting with or believing.
Listening to feminists on masculinity is the main reason I checked out of society. She is the problem.
Yep. It is about as absurd as me going on a woman’s show and talking about femininity but here we are
@@brianmeen2158 more accurately it’s like getting a ideologue with little to no awareness of anything including themselves to give advice to people they have been taught to hate.
I'll admit I only clicked on this to read comments. I don't care to hear anything from any feminist especially about men. If a man talks about women's issues it's mansplaining. The comments are pretty much what I expected to see
I love how she said policy can't make men go back to their families when it is the women who file the divorce papers.
It’s surprising to actually see an example of a productive conversation on such a complex and nuanced topic. I’m very grateful to both of you for your thoughtfulness!
@@croissants1280 Sooooo why are you watching then?
@@croissants1280 You would never see Chris face a major challenge...He stays in the safe zone...He is a coward.....
What I would love to see is a conversation between Christine and the Tinman I saw some very obvious contradictions - the guest pointed out the role of absent fathers and the detrimental effect it has on kids. BUT had previously said that it was fine for a 2 women in a relationship to raise kids. Now Im seeing a clear contradiction and I wonder fine for who the parents or the Kids? Also there is a credible pointing out of absent fathers but as pointed out by the Timman we have suffered 30 plus years of a court system that has prevented good fathers seeing their kids. The narrative was "You don't need a man to bring up Kids" well to some extent we are reaping the implications of Bro-science being implemented in law
@@boybath Its a consistent pattern with Chris his subtle bias against men and his guests..Its become routine...
@@user-mv5lq2xu9i The way conversations happen matters. Everything is not a battle. It's an exchange. Sides incrementally show a little vulnerability, show they are willing to listen to a different perspective. That is *how* progress happens through discussion. It is not always just how to get someone to some predetermined end goal. So even a conversation like this is significant because you are seeing someone coming from a 3rd wave feminist education and mindset demonstrating open-mindedness and good faith (which breaks from tradition) and Chris is receptive to that. He wants to understand the core concern coming from that side. He wants to find good role models for men because he also cares about them. There's nothing weak or wrong about that. It's more disciplined and higher emotional IQ. People who are more steeped in the feminist side of things also open up gradually when it is modeled for them. Maybe we'll find out what points are valid in their criticism. This is the type of conversation my wife would actually listen to because she would feel it was an honest conversation. You cannot just completely reject what you see as the opposition. Do you think you are a better person than him? Who have you influenced? What have you accomplished? It's easy for an internet rando to criticize. His channel is successful because he is more open and making space for a more nuanced, neutral perspective.
I have 14 year old son and I worry. The lack of good role models, the way school don’t understand boys, and even discourages them , video games , I am very worried.
Masculine boys are treated as defective girls in schools now. Such an unforgivable shame that boys have to feel that their sex is considered a problem in the world 😭
Try getting him into martial arts or some sport where he can bond with other boys and hopefully have a good male role model.
Stop worrying and do you job; be a good mother.
Where is his father? Maybe you eliminate his father from your boys life. His role model supposed to be his father so bring him back. Dont just take child support money for yourself.
Video games are not inherently bad, just try to regulate the amount of time spent on them. To avoid gaming addiction. Make sure he gets exercise, either in a sport or martial art. Or just regular trips to the gym.
I have a terrible feeling that this is all going to lead to disaster: weak men, bad times. I just hope that few people die as possible before the strong men arise. Unfortunately, I have yet to see evidence that women can protect society.
Women are not capable of protecting anything.
Christ! Is this an "edgy" conversation from 2005? Who doesn't know the content of this discussion since then already? News flash!! "Some women emerges from feminist time capsule. Portificates about men."
Women talking about "fixing" men really means, "how can men change to help benefit me more"
At least it might have an invisible hand effect
they really dont care about men, they only care that they dont get anything from them anymore. The most terrible people in todays societies are actually woman, Im not saying they are all not moral, but many and woman dont have any consequences for it, you can kill your child and its okay. You can leave your man for a new one and still demand money from him. INSANE
At about minute 21 she talks about abortion rights being 'rolled back'. This is a common misunderstanding. The fact is that even someone as far 'Lefty' as the late SCOTUS Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg knew Roe was doomed and would be overturned. Roe never actually secured abortion rights (SCOTUS cannot invent rights or grant them), that was a myth and it left women in a position where they didn't do the things that would have actually secured a right to abortion (an Amendment, or getting it secured in the laws of each State). Precedent can be overturned, and a later court of a different makeup will often do exactly that. That is why you should NEVER let the courts legislate from the bench. BTW: Gays are in the same boat now. The decision that made gay marriage the same as heterosexual marriage is on the same shaky footing. Gays should be working in ever state and territory to make gay marriage legal in those jurisdictions so that when the time comes that the SCOTUS 'changes its mind' they would still have their marriage rights secured.
She doesn't see the problems that men face, nor does Chris. The idea that men previously had an advantage over women is the one myth that won't go away! What they did have by default and law was more responsibility. 750,000 British men died in the first world war, my grandfather fought in that war and lost two brothers, and none of them had the right to vote. Did they really have privilege?
You do not see men crying on social media about being lonely but women do it
I’ve come to the understanding that I won’t allow myself to be distracted debating with women about gender roles. Nowadays I’m too busy to be in a competitive relationship.
I hear you loud and clear! After seeing these debates I’ve come to the conclusion we are much better off just getting on our purpose. I don’t even want to know how much time many have wasted endlessly talking about this shit
@@brianmeen2158it's because people like Christina, Chris and Richard Reeves are tone deaf. The voices are softer but the message is the same "men are the problem, fix yourselves".
The reduction of the number of men working in teaching and the "caring" professions has reduced in parallel with the impact of feminism in society over time. Men who work with children and vulnerable people have a giant target in the middle of their back.
I’m male and work in education and disagree with this comment.
That is a bit exaggerating and parts of it are valid for women as well as also a female teacher has to treat many things in teaching/education differently than 30 years ago to avoid court. Often male teachers and social workers are even appreciated. I like how relaxed and serious this conversation was, but in the end things should be also not dramatised: Despite some alarming developments and problems, many men do still rather well and are also roll models.
@@florianmeier3186 lol I have my doubts you're a teacher, based on your grammar But if it's being over exaggerated, why aren't men entering these professions in numbers like the use to? It's because it's not being over exaggerated, if anything bias against men is still under reported and denied
The current grandfathers and those currently dying went through a war. Before that there was a depression (1890s), war (1914-19), depression (1930s), war (1939-45). They came home and worked hard and didn't want to talk about it. The children of this era often had absent fathers. These have generational effects. The current generation of new fathers are way more involved with their children than my (I'm 64) and my parents' generation.
Not a word about divorce rape, or other laws that government has to fock men up
My life experience is that even stating that you are a man is sexist, even though that's likely all they are noticing about you.
Bro all I wanted and still want is to not be discriminated against. If I wasn't discriminated against I would've paid off my student loans by now, made at least 20% in my career, had enough saving for a down payment for a house, and could've likely found a wife and started a family by now. Literally just cut the shit and leave us alone. I'm sorry but this woman is just...it's another woman thinking like a woman about how to solve men's problems...if men were women.
I think what she said about norms is very true. Nothing can be "good" or "bad" anymore, everything has to be very complex and nuanced. The problem with this is that humans tend to mentally categorize things to make sense of the world, we like to put everything in a bucket. While that's obviously bad to do all the time, totally removing our confidence to EVER categorize things is harmful and just downright confusing to us.
Yeah, there will always be exceptions and extenuating circumstances on a case-by-case basis but there still are objectively good and bad things.
I agree too. This is something that annoys me a lot. In analysis of a random data, the first thing to do it to find common factors and categorize the data based on them. This is the basic way by which one can make sense of the data and then proceed forward in developing a proper understanding. Claiming everything is complex or multi-variate is fine to sound sophisticated but only in controlled environment one get to make sense of these variables and the effect of their changes or you remain in a null state where you cannot get anything useful from the data. There are always outliers but do they affect the general trend ? Not much really. But outliers, especially personal anecdotes which can hardly be proved, are used as a way to avoid or negate arguments completely which is like fine to sound smart but that is still, an exception or outlier, a skewed perspective. Sure, we can consider the nature of it and see if we can improve our current understanding but still, it is an outlier and its impact on a big enough sample set is small if not miniscule.
Whenever a woman talks about Men's issues I just zone out. Fail.
Then why are you here? Why click on a video with this title?
With women working, who raises the children?? The state? Daycare workers? Who installs morality and ethics in children? How does a boy know what a man is if men are removed from the home? How does a girl know what a woman is if the mother is gone from the home?
They will say the men can raise the children
@@thrilla72 Who are 'they'?
A girl knows about both parents if they're both working
Feminism destroyed families and threw mothers under the bus.
@@shinzagu There's no guilt
MGTOW : The only winning move is not to play
😂 you will die alone but that’s ok 👌
@@twainalex996 Honey, your projections are like water off a ducks back.
@@twainalex996 We all die alone. If I can avoid being chewed up and spit out by what you've all done with life on Earth, then I'll gladly take those last 3 days of me deteriorating in peace & quiet. It beats the alternative. Oh and by the way, you're not exempt from this just because you married. It's actually more likely that you'll be alone while we have hot nurses taking care of us in our last days here.
Gaaay!
@@twainalex996 Everyone dies alone, kid, unless you decide to have someone else around you while you kill yourself?
Young men are not feeling lost. We're feeling cast out and discarded. If feminism had been able to alter and define the accepted roles of women in society. Why is it not for men to determine their roles as well? The problem is that too many men have typically been overly passive in regards to feminist aggression. The more toxic women become, the more men slowly degrade their own self respect through tolerating that behavior. "Happy wife happy life" - has been the dagger in men and inflicting woulds that slowly bleed men out. I tell my sons that in life, the 1st principle and rule is RESPECT YOURSELF BEFORE YOU RESPECT ANYONE ELSE. Men who respect themselves won't participate in degenerate behaviors while simultaneously prohibiting women and society to degrade them on a personal basis.
I do actively engage women in a manner that causes them to dislike me.
54:00 the problem isn't single parent households, the studies show father led single households children to about as well as two parent homes... it is specifically single mother homes where most of the issues lie... and this creator has seen those studies... he just lacked the integrity to say it to a feminist.
Can you cite your source(s)? Even just authors?
@@cosmicartsastrologicalserv242 google it the surveys aren't hard to find
she started to lose me when she brought up peterson
Why is that?
peterson is actually a simp, he always says man up, and how to be a good man, how to live a good live as a man, which is ALL GOOD, i love that, but what he is completly missing that men have no rights in any developed country and he never says woman need to improve. Peterson is not even that good at understanding THE PROBLEM. So if anybody is shitting on Peterson who doesnt even understand the problem, then you know the person is full of shit and is so far away from understand that you dont even have to care. Woman select through sex, men through resources, mens resources are being stolen through the state and giving to the woman for free. Taxes, Inflation, child support.
mentioning him in the same breadth as Tate and using him as a stand in "bad masculine" role model many times
It always baffles me when people putting Peterson and Tate in the same sentence. In what world a psychologist who talks about values is comparable level to a pimp who promotes criminality