Can UK Electricians Learn from French Electrics?
Can UK Electricians Learn from French Electrics?
Join me on holiday in Paris as I check out the wiring in my French AirBnB.
Please note: my wife is French...
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As a French person, all these systems came out to be basic for me, but due to the video, I'm wondering about how electricity is organized in other countries now
pareil mdr
I've lived in France since I was 23 and also thought this was just the modern norm. Apparently not 😮
I am French and I would also like to know how boards are made in other countries. although it seems modern, some things are useless like the brewer for Internet and telephone which are useless at my home that add latency and reduce performance
@@thiblb1803 Brewer?
@@thiblb1803 Britain has single pole disconnectors. In Britain everything is based on keeping installation _materials_ costs down, not labour costs. But double pole RCBOs are available. I see RCBOs are not common in France, being almost not available. Also in the UK AFDDs are now mandatory in some high rise blocks on any circuit with a socket outlet, but only _recommended_ on *_all_* installations. The French way of double pole using twin L & N busbars (comb) in consumer units is superior to the UK system. But Schneider are selling DP disconnectors with comb busbars in main panels. So the superior French way of comb busbars may be more common.
Note that in France you can take out an off-peak option : from 22h30 to 06h30 (variable locally), electricity is cheaper, and a contactor is switched on automatically thanks to a special signal sent to the network. This contactor is used to supply the hot water tank for example.
You can get this in the UK too (called Economy 7) but at present it doesn't really exist because the prices are artificially set by a price cap regulation due to high prices in the market. And even before, you had to be careful. Generally speaking, you paid slightly more for "on" peak electricity, to counterbalance the cheaper "off" peak prices. So unless you know you will definitely manage your usage to utilise the off peak hours, it's not worth it and could actually end up costing more. You also need a compatible meter and the operator might charge you to install that, yay.
Not everywhere in France you can't.
@@SBBUK Same thing in Poland, to offset the cheaper off peak price they charge you an arm and a leg during peak hours, it's completely not worth it.
How much off do you get? Poland is 50%, but Germany only 20%.
@@LMB222 very very few a this moment for a domestic use (tarif bleu) :/
France is quite advanced when it comes to electric safety. I am german and live close to the border to france. I had many opportunities to work on french installations. Things that are standing out in my opinion are that they only use halogen free cables and that all outlets, no matter the load or cable length are connected via 3x2.5mm². If you ever had to finalize an installation with 60 or more sockets in a day with 2.5mm² wires, you know your fingers will hurt :-D I would love to see the halogen free cable become mandatory at least where they aren't covered in plaster, i.e. ceilings. My childhood home cought fire one night and all the plastic stuff released toxic fumes and worst of all hydrochloric acid from PVC. My bronchii and lungs took several weeks to heal to a state so that breathing no longer hurt.
I’m in Sweden and found the German/Swedish electrical system so easy to work on. It’s similar to the French but you have 3 phase 16, 20, 25, 35, for single family homes 45, 63 amp for apartments then 100amp+ for commercial. You step the 100 down to 63amp consumer units then step down to 35amp consumer units. The normal domestic 35amp consumer units are also 3 phase, so can have a 3 phase 16a cooker that is powerful even to actually cook on. The only bit that’s a bit more complicated is balancing the phases as the boards are set out phase 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3 etc on each rail with 3 phase RCD’s. Each rail has its own earth rail for multiple RCD’s if required. Schneider is a good brand as well, so the boards can look similar to the one in the apartment, or wall mounted. All cables are run in flexible pipe 35mm+ deep into the wall, so 42mn OSB screws don’t get to the pipes. Each room you put a junction box near the entry door, so you pull one set 3 x1.5mm cables then run the sockets and lights off that junction box. Label the 10A fuse and you easily know which room had the fault. Easy to pull another cable etc, so really easy to diagnose and maintain. I wish we had the same in the UK as you normally only have one phase trip at any time, so only 1/3 of the lights don’t work.
Norwegian here, and it's been decade since I worked on electric installations, but from what I remember the 3x2.5mm² was protected by 16 amp automatic-breakers (on the 3-phase 400V system). And they were also was triggered by earth-fault (30mA) if I remember correctly. Previously the earth-fault protection was for bathrooms/wet-rooms only, but it was easier to use one type on everything - so it's common now to use it on every outlet in the building, with variation on how quick you want the breakers to trip (C-type being typically the slowest).
@@globalbridges8570 Yeah, Schneider is pretty common, but you also have ABB, Eaton and EFA.
Skeptisk my electrician prefers Häger for the central/consumer unit and Elko for the sockets, switches etc, Draka for halogen free cables. I wish I could use the same back in the UK.
Wish we used 2,5/16A on outlets in Sweden 😔
When you visit the uk you turn the clock 1 hour and 40 years back.
🤣🤣🤣
I wonder if fires/electrocution rates are any different?
@@bobtahoma yes you were ahead of times back when the ancient romans ruled ;-) but got kicked back by the Vikings.
When you visit the USA turn the clock back 1 hour and 100 years back. Our electrical is terrible compared to Europe.
I find British way of doing things kind of conservative but idiot proof. One example is SWA cable other one metal conduit system. Way better than we have in Czech. On the other hand their submarine-like connection under the pavement is weird in my eyes.
5:20 in France type A RCD's are mandatory on the row where you put the breakers for a hob (electric, vitroceramic), a washing machine and a power station/charger for an electric vehicle. (Source: I was trained as an electrician in France)
Looking at these video's I can conclude... Electrical wise USA still lives in the Stone Age, UK in the Middle Ages and the EU in the present.
and the netherlands in the lead
The UK's standards are really good. I think the safest in the whole world. The only issue is that there are plenty of old installations around but new ones are really good.
Stone age USA electrics: Metal breaker boxes being standard since forever. Cable strain reliefs at all boxes since forever. Circuit breakers start at 10kA fault current interrupt rating. Sane wiring color codes. 60cy/sec mains frequency, which Westinghouse engineers found was the superior mains frequency over a century ago. You tell funny joke, yes.
You are clearly biased
Grew up in France and thought it was normal until I moved to the UK
I am living in UK and I lived in Canada and Norway (visited also a lot countries and staying at friend places). UK is the worst (electricity or water network...) why to put a fuse in each socket? Thus you don't protect the cable... Very stupid. Water... You should not mix hot and cold water until very recently, thus, a lot of place with separate taps or as my sink with two tubes in one to mix only outside, thus, it is not well mix... Thailand or China is much better!
Often when you move abroad, you discover that normal things in your country are not at all normal outside and reciprocally!
I don’t get how UK can use this weird thing in shower that mix hot water and cold water and seems connected to electricity. Seems sooo dangerous.
@@KBinturong go to Bolivia and have a nice electric powered shower There ,it will change your mind.
@@bubuthom Your knowledge of these matters is *skant.* The British fused G type plug/DP socket is the best in the world. No plugged in appliance can draw more than 13A. Fuses are available from 1A upwards. I put 1A fuses in table lamps protecting the cable and lamp. Everywhere else in the world, except G Type plug users, the flimsy lamp flex is protected by 16A or 20A breakers at the main panel which is potential fire hazzard. The fuse in each plus means you can have a flexible ring circuit. A ring is a busbar running around the house or to some rooms. Each appliance is fused off the busbar (cable) in the plug. If there is a problem on an appliance *_only that appliance_* drops out, *_not_* the whole circuit. I have mixer taps which are similar to those in most of the world, with a hot pipe and cold pipe entering the mixer then mixed water dropping out of the spout. The British regulations recommend RCBOs or AFDDs to be fitted at the panels. Thailand is a third world joke. it is best you adopt the British fuse in plug G Type. Been there and saw it - shocking. Must be many deaths there because of bad installations and poor standards.
That's a nice electrical set up. We in the U.S. use main circuit interrupters on our panels also ,but I have never seen a set up like this one,where all of the equipment is concealed in one cabinet. I am an electrician for over 30 years and still learning new things. Great Job
I have heard that the us system is quite old fashion compared to continental Europe and the UK in terms of regulations what do you think?
@@UKsystems The USA has hardly moved out the 1950s. The socket outlets and lpugs are terrifying.
I know this is an old video, but worth adding: if you’d taken the cover off the first thing you’d have noticed is that the Individual circuit breakers are double pole, both the live and neutral pass through the mcb and are both isolated when the circuit is off.
Not true
@@xartpantsorry but yes, both pole are protected and isolated in this kind of installation
@@xartpant Not sure I understand your comment. I live in France, work on French electrical installations and, if the system is compliant with current norms, all MCBs are double pole. To install a single pole MCB would not work with a French consumer unit (no neutral busbar) and would not be compliant. Of course I do accept there are electrical installations that do not comply with the norms. The only time I encountered a single pole MCB set up was in a home that an Englishman had DIY wired using UK spec equipment. However, as soon as the electric supply company found what had been done (they came to update the meter) the supply was cut off to the property.
@@xartpant Completely true according to the current norm, but it was only introduced a decade or so ago (from memory) so HUGE numbers of installations don't isolate both. You can still buy replacement _boites de dérivation_ that are designed for both types, but no professional electrician will fit one that only isolates the live.
@@Harrydewulf I did an electrical installation (as a DIYer) in France in 2009, so studied up on NFC15-100 norms, and even then all breakers were double pole -- or at least it was impossible to buy breakers that were not double pole! I was really impressed with the norms -- took a bit of studying and learning terminology, but really well thought out.
The "telephone cables" that you see going out of the patch panel are actually home appliance multimedia cables that are usually Grade 3 or Grade 3S, meaning they can be used as Cat6 Ethernet cables as well. They're used for phone but also for remote TV IPTV boxes or computers where possible (a lot of people use a Wifi connection but it doesn't always go through walls). Note however that new "old type" copper phone lines aren't made anymore, new flats/house now come with fiber connection. You then need a fiber internet or phone modem of some sort, and a lot of people put that modem near the board and plug it into the available socket. This is honestly something that should be considered now, as well as adding room for a wifi access point of some sort :)
Theze are required in France since 2018 or so
@@redstone0234 Yes you're right, everything is in the NFC15-100 specification :) i's not free, but hopefuly LEGRAND, HAGER, SCHNEIDER produce nice and clear PDF with all we need to know.
In france the green conduits are used for telecoms, so the spare is for when they do the fiber pull to the apartment
It is actually EU-wide standard. Just that France have more modern electrical installations because once EU standards and regulations went into effect, most old installations were outdated and had to be totally re-done. Basically EU adopted the Swedish regulations, the politicians just translated it, and thenargued over expensive dinners for several years... It also helps that most of the biggest companies have identical "best practices" in all the countries they are active, just the power socket that looks different :P
Green colour is not standart, mostly grey or black where i am
@@andreassjoberg3145 Do you have any backing for saying it's of Swedish origin? -> I'm genuinely curious as I thought to myself watching this video: We'll, we had that in Sweden 30 years ago. French but grew up in Sweden you see, and while visiting family members in France I can't remember if they had similar stuff or not. Vore verkligen roligt om du kunde hitta nagon källa för det du säger :)
@@andreassjoberg3145 In France, old installations don't need to be redone. Thankfully since in those past 10 years the NF C15100 (norm directing electricity in French household) has been updated almost yearly (on minor details, to be honest) The only time you need to have an up-to-date installation is in a new building, or if your house power meter had been removed. Which is quite rare, it usually happens after a few years of the building being left unused.
@@andreassjoberg3145 I don't know where you get your information from, but it seems false to me. I live in a house that is more than 40 years old, that has never had an electrical overhaul and that is already equipped in this way. The only major difference being the presence of fuses. And for the telecom conduit, this was already present for the telephone copper line. The telecom box is much more rudimentary, but is already present.
Book recommendation - Electricity in your French house: amzn.to/32zIKYH
Book is now too old.
Swiss Electrics. That's worth a look because of the quality. Another league.
If you read French there is a book called "L'installation électrique" as well as a whole series of books by David Fedullo / Thierry Gallauziaux covering almost every aspect of a home installation. Absolutely essential. French norms for home electrical installations (NFC 15-100) are a masterpiece of simplicity and safety -- far superior to the UK & Ireland's ring circuits.
The main switch is a 500-mA RCD because originally its function was to make sure that people didn''t cheat the meter by hooking the neutral line to the earth. Thus, in normal operation, you have always a return current flowing through the meter that is equal to the input current.
Meter will read regardless
@@dimitarlazarov2094 the main network transformers are 3-phase, and they do distribute the phases on different houses on a street. If you get an 'entente' with your neighbour, you can wire 'magic sockets' (2 phases no neutral at the plug), where the load is making the meter not counting or even counting in reverse (with old mechanical meters without one-way counter wheel). hence the RCD and earthing of the neutral done before the meter to prevent this.
@@AntoineFleuryGobert Well I've been an electrician for over 25 years. RCD device is designed to detect a potential load difference between earth and neutral. In other words it's a protection device. What you probably mean is that you can use one phase and an earth rod connection to try to cheat. At the end of the day the earth and neutral are the same thing. If the system uses separate earthing that does not go through the meter. Also having two phases rated at 230 volts will blow any 230v appliance. It's a common practice in the USA to use two 120v phases to power 230v appliances. Any house there has 2 phase supply for this very reason. Also it's not a good idea to have many RCDs on the same line as that will make them all to trip if there was a fault at any of them. I've worked as an electrician in the UK for 15 years and we never ever had to install a consumer unit in the kitchen cabinet. I personally think that the author of this video is just an enthusiast and has never done this work professionally. From at least 3 years over there it is mandatory to use a whole house surge protection device. Also there as in every country the supply is 3 phases which gets split between neighbouring houses or flats. Although I now live in county where all dwellings have 3 phase supply
@@dimitarlazarov2094 BTW is kinda special that the panel take place in the kitchen, the C15-100 specification ask it to be close to and entrance and in the most accessible place for the rescue team and fire departement to shutoff the instalation. In this case, we're inside Paris, most of the flats are old and very old for a lot of them, this explain the location of the elctric panel. In my own appartment I had, builded in 2001, it was located on the wall just were the main door stoped when fully opened.
Nice look at a newer French board. Integrating the comms wiring in the distribution panel was introduced sometime around 2007. That allows Orange to pop in and put their equipment in one spot. The DTI is similar to a Master Socket and can be used by Orange to test if your line is working. In the old days, French buildings used the "Prise en T" telephone plugs. Fun times.
2001, not 2007
If you want to see a nice Cable Tray Job check out this video: kzhead.info/sun/p76ulKikn3WIaZ8/bejne.html
Been an electrician in The Netherlands for over 15 yrs now. Somewhat simular but i personaly go for Hard PVC tubing.. Flexible conduits are great of you dont have to re-wire things or pull a cable.. That little steel wire will cut your fingers in my own experience :P
The 'Linky' meter is not scealed because there is a serial data connector in there where you can connect a computer (such as a Raspberry pi) and collect your data. This can be done with softs such as Domoticz. That's pretty usefull if you would like to monitor you consumption and try to lower it. All french houses are not equipped with such modern boards though. I used to live in a house where the initial wiring was done in 1912. With wood conduits, ceramic knobs, removable fuses, cables with fabric insulation, and all that jazz. Everything was more or less working as intended still.
Our house in the Gironde is a large chartreuse (basically a smaller chateau!) and was built in 1670 - we have pretty much the exact same board near the kitchen door - but, because end to end, the downstairs is 75m long (I build guitars - my workshop is at the other end), we have a second, smaller board there linked via the mains line to the front of the house, but wholly independent from it. Altogether, the house runs on 9kva (it was 6, but that wasn't enough), we may in time move it up to 12 as I rebuild one of the bathrooms and put in a new immersion tank. The French system is very good and you can isolate every part for working (I'm not an electrician, but I'm pretty good) and overall, electricity prices here are much cheaper than the UK.
I’m French and just had a peek at this vid, really quite strange to know that in the UK, things are not like this🙃I’ve been used to cabling our ‘Electric Panels’, as we call them this way for the past 30 Years. The major differences with older installations is All the fuses are ‘trip fuses’ (mcd’s?), and not cartridge fuses anymore. And generally people upgrade from cartridge to trip fuse for conveniency. Good job giving other guys insight in to a Nice and Neat Installation, which for us froggies is standard 👍🏻
Our setup isn't that much different. It's more the little touches & the overall consideration given to the setup. The French system just seems neater & more user-friendly. That main fuse/rcd/isolation switch is the main difference. Great idea. I also like that the 'fuse' rating can be changed remotely, without an engineer having to visit & that it shows the current rating. Other than those two differences, the rest is pretty similar.
Another Frenchy here.... Don't tell them about how our older buildings are wired up. Health and safety will have a heart attack.
@@wewereneversane9833 I know! Terrifying! I looked at the electrical system in a _modern_ 1976 block in Paris. To British 1976 standards it is third world. But the EU dragged all up to a higher level, so not the case these days. The British are there but it is design they fail on. The nice inset and integrated electrical panels at the correct height in France, and elsewhere, is not common here - although it was in the 1950s to 70s. In the UK they do not like having electrical panels and gas meters at front doors for safety reasons in case of fire - no equipment that can be potential fires at exits to the premises. Hence we put them in odd _safer_ places.
@@johnburns4017 I'd still like to wager that you're more sensible than we are. Bruh, there are stories of people dying from shock going up an emergency staircase by touching the hand rails... That's how fucked up the wiring is. About a thousand wires stuffed into the connection and their solution to the resistance is "More Power" ..... Which will create even more resistance through heat and the solution to that is "MOOOORE POWAH!!"
@@wewereneversane9833 Thanks for restoring our confidence for not seeming totally inferior.
Where is the emergency croissant?
😂
In his belly ofc
In Germany you might find matches and a candle. If there is a total black out you can see in the dark that none of the circuit breakers including main has responded. So you can be sure the problem is not in your installment.
There you go, that’s the comment I was expecting.
Finally a sensible comment and the question we all had in mind
This picture is pretty much the same across western- and central Europe. Although in Germany and the Netherlands 16 A with B-curve is the standard for basically any circuit. In Belgium and France you will find more 20 A and C-curve. The reason behind this is not clear to me. Standards in the Netherlands is to have a minimum of two RCD's. Lights are to be distributed over these two RCD's. In case one RCD trips the other RCD will still feed na other light in a room or landing / hallway near you. You will not be in the dark! Wall sockets are combined with lighting. In the Netherlands at least. Where the lighting point in the ceiling serves as the point feeding the nearest wall sockets using a star topology. A living room might have two or three lighting point, feeding their nearest wall sockets. The bathroom, landing / hallway or bedroom would be connected to a different circuit. Or alternate in a way that the neighbouring room will be on a different RCD. All wires are 2.5 mm2, provided they are not longer then 25 meters or so. Otherwise you might find 4 mm2 but this is very uncommon in residential circuits in the Netherlands. Stove, oven, washing machine, tumble dryer, dishwasher, boiler will all have a dedicated circuit that is usually 16 A B-curve. A stove usually has a wierd kind of 2 x 16 A circuit feeding two lives and two neutrals. Only the Dutch! Although a four pole breaker 3P + N is a better fit. A maximum of four circuit breakers behind one RCD is the rule in the Netherlands. Just to keep things organized. Need more cirtuits? Then add a RCD. The situation in Germany is someshat comparable. Although single phase 40 A can be found in existing installations, the standard these days is a three phase supply with 25 A fuses D-curve. Distributing the loads equally over the phases is up to the consumer / electrician. At the kitchen counter / worktop you should find at least two double wall sockets in the wall that are connected to two different circuit breakers. That is how it should be. So you can have your electric kettel and toaster active at the same time without tripping the circuit breaker. Earth in the Netherlands is usually TN-S and a RCD should be 30 mA type AC or A? I think it is A these days. Circuit breakers are double pole. There is no regulator that will check your work. What you do behind the meter is your business. The electrical code is merely a recommendation. When your house burns down the forensic department of the insurance company might have a look to see up to how far the installation was following the electrical code and draw their conclusions based on the outcome of the investigation.
You say "here is no regulator that will check your work. What you do behind the meter is your business." In Belgium you have a notification obligation (AREI) and a recognized inspection body will inspect the electrical installation for commissioning, modification, reinforcement or expansion. Afterwards, you must have the installation re-inspected every 25 years. When selling the house you must be able to present a valid conformity report. If that report is not available, you must have the installation inspected.
@@walterverbeeck6929 Indeed, the Netherlands is a bit different to Belgium, here we have no body to check things. For a domestic installation you are expected to follow the guidelines and use common sense. In the Netherlands we don't have rings like the UK has. Everything is star connected and fused using 16 A breakers with a B-curve. Standard 2.5 mm2 wires everywhere, there is not much that can go wrong here. No extensive testing or certification needed. In Belgium they choose to have a body for that, the Netherlands doesn't. No report needed when selling the house. A B&B, guesthouse or Hotel might be a whole different story. Those installations are subject to periodical testing. Usually the city council requires a test report of the technical installation as part of the permit to run a guesthouse of some sort. The report should be written by a qualified electrician, working for a registered company. Usually every five years retesting will occur. This consists of a RCD check, measuring tripping time and current and measuring earth resistance. And a visual check of the installation. Are all elements secured to the wall, no loose components, is there any discolouration on outlets, wires or breakers that can indicate problems? Switch off parts of the installation to see if they indeed get isolated as you would expect. Small issues will be fixed on the spot or shortly after. If everything is done and all is fine then the installation has passed the test.
Great comment thanks. I worked in Swifterbant for two years! Loved working on Dutch electrical systems
@@artisanelectrics Thank you! The practices and guidelines in the Netherlands are directed towards a clearly arranged installation. Not more than four breakers behind a RCD is a good one. It keeps the fault current down and diagnosing a RCD trip is quick. You only have to focus on a maximum of four breakers. If you need more breakers, add an other RCD. All wall sockets in a bedroom are fed from the central junction box in the middle of the ceiling where the light hangs from. It is all one circuit, it is totally clear what is happening. No ring circuits or other needlessly complicated things. Adjacent room / corridor will be put on a different RCD. If one RCD trips, you will still have light in the next room or corridor. You won't be in the dark, no panic. These are simple tings that make life easy and safe. But yes, there is no regulatory body to check your work. We trust that you do the right thing. If the house burns down or somebody gets killed then criminal investigators will obviously check what happened and justice will be served.
In the Czech Republic, we usually use 16A or 25A B type breakers for sockets and 10A A type for lightning circuits. RCDs are mandatory for all bathroom instalations. The C type can be found mostly in garages or working places.
This is quite interesting to see. I like to see such videos how the Electric is done in the UK and around it. Im a German Electrician. In Germany you only use C-characteristic circuit Breakers for devices with very high inrush current (such as a big circular saw or a large compressor in the workshop) or in construction Site power distribution cabinets. The installation of C-Type circuit breakers in normal households is normally not permitted. RCDs are only needed for circuits with sockets where portable devices are connected and especially in the Bathroom. The required RCD trip-current is 30mA. Permanently connected / hard wired devices may be operated without RCDs, but if you want, you can still use them. RCDs with a trip current higher than 30mA are only allowed in Industry or in construction Site power distribution cabinets for loop through functions to feed another distribution cabinet. The newer household Distribution boxes are in most cases made of plastic. Only the DIN Rails on which the circuit breakers and other devices are snapped are made of metal. Informations about a normal household in Germany: you have a main fuse box (mostly in the basement) where the supply lines come into the house. From there, a cable leads to a meter cabinet (which is also mostly in the basement), where there are meter pre-fuses, the meter itself, and a main switch on the output side for each meter. The distribution box can be integrated in the meter cabinet, otherwise it is somewhere in your apartment. The meter cabinets can be equipped as required in a modular design. There are field modules for 1, 2, 4 or 6 meters, or with DIN Rails for circuit breakers, up to perforated plates for the installation of telecommunication devices such as DSL routers, patch panels and other devices. The leading manufacturer of these meter cabinets and distribution boxes in Germany is "HAGER". The wiring of the meter and distribution boxes must always be touch-proof. If cables are laid on cable racks, the cable racks must be earthed. Gas, water and heating pipes must also be earthed with us. In addition, it is now mandatory for us to install lightning arresters and surge protection in the electrical system of new buildings. We always run 3-phase 230/400V 50Hz in our buildings. Older houses and apartments can still be wired at single-phase 230V. 3x230/400V is often used by our hard wired electrical stoves/cookers auch as induction cookers and the electric water heater with up to 24kW. A normal AC Outlet delivers 230V at 16A (3.6kW). The Main Fuses of a normal one-family house are mostly rated at 35 to 50Amp. Sometimes 63Amp. By us, the Breaking capacity of the circuit breakers has to be 10kA when installed in the top part of a Meter-Module and 6kA when installed in a separated DIN-Rail Module of the meter cabinet or in an external distribution box somewhere in the house. The main fuse box, the lower connection area of the meter cabinet and the meters are sealed by the energy supplier. If the seals are destroyed or removed by unauthorized persons, that person is liable to prosecution.
Maybe you want to say D curve circuit breaker for high inrush current device ? (10-15x nominal current) = D curve (8-13x nominal current ) = C curve, standard in France for house application (excepted some pool pump or old cooler with D curve) (5-10x) = B curve for long length cable
Norway follows more or less the same restrictions as Germany (35A as main and 16A as largest on single circuits, everything else are for industry). I see that the letters on the switches/ breakers vary some on what we call slow-switches( able to handle peek loads like heavy tools etc). On the other hand, Norway is not installing copper wires for telephone/ internet anymore. All new buildings and single homes get fiber optics. We also have remote reading of power consumption at the main breaker box, so no more forgetting to read the meter. Schneider is used a lot here in Norway btw. They make some nice clean breaker boxes. The problem we are facing is all the chargers being installed due to electric cars . Last year 50% of all new cars were 100electric. The municipality are uncertain about the overall load on the coming years, any thoughts on that in other countries?
Often it's B curve in domestic settings in the UK, C curve in commercial and D curve for industrial or high inrush current in commercial. For Commercial and industrial we also almost never have RCD's on distribution panels in preference of RCD's for dedicated circuits or at the appliance. We have the same policy here of "If the seals are destroyed or removed by unauthorized persons, that person is liable to prosecution" though most suppliers don't tend to enforce it as it's unreasonable to wait for them to remove the fuses nor do they put isolators in after the meters. Typically the UK circuit ratings are 6A lighting, 10A lighting, 16/20A radial power circuit, 32A 4mm radial/ 2.5mm x2 ring final circuit (all 6kA). Anything larger 40/50A is normally a shower or electric inline central heating (and often 10kA). 63A or larger would typically be used for a sub-board supply. Interestingly although EU norm is 3x 230/400V the average voltage across the UK from what I have experienced it's 247V. I wonder what it actually is in Germany?
@@mariusj8542 Oh we have worries about that here, our average voltage is higher than the rest of the EU, but many of the old cables and even the new housing estates designed for "electric only heating and hot water" are undersized ring mains. Basically they're going on the assumption most people will use public transport rather than get an electric vehicle and that some people wont ever get one. They're also hoping that B2G will help bypass the issue, but it's more of a band-aid than actually properly preparing for the future.
It really is B curve in most German households. Some older houses even have the H curve, which is horribly fast. (You have to start a vacuum cleaner at a lower level for it not to trip). Even the B ones can be very annoying. For example when you have a powerful computer, the inrush current for Charging the SMPS Capacitors after plugging it in often trips B fuses, especially if you have it on a (switchable) extension cord together with all peripherals.
Flexi conduit seems a good idea for the style of buildings in France. I remember the French tyre house on grand designs being done that way.
Having worked in Paris for some while now I can tell you are fortunate to see an installation made this well (judging without looking under the covers)
yes that's not the usual setup (new or renovation)
They all look like the same as this one but this one are realy more clean than older
The main norm for electrical LV (and ELV) installation in France is the NF C15-100. Normally it's for residential stuff, but we use it for every LV installation. When you build a new home/appartment, your electrical installation have to conform to this 15-100 norm. This norm covers everything from the number of sockets (including RJ sockets) per room, the protections you have to use, the cables you have to use, the size of the little niche where you have to install your electric board, etc. Your installation gets certified at the end by the "CONSUEL" (which is also the name of the certification) Since this norm is updated somewhat regularly, when you want to sell, or rent your home, your installation doesn't necessarily have to conform to the latest version of the 15-100 to avoid sometimes big work that would have to be done (like additional sockets or an entire ELV network), but instead have to meet the basic standards of security of the NF C16-600 (grounding your stuff, no live wires, replacing faulty equipment, using at least one earth-fault breaker ...). This process also need a certification by a recognized electrician giving you the DEO (Diagnostique Electrique Obligatoire or Mandatory Electrical Diagnostic) which allows you to rent or sell your home/appartment.
Fun fact: in The Netherlands it is even a code that the distribution board must hang at a height of 1.60 m within 3 meters of the front door.
Got a nice video for that. kzhead.info/sun/ja2xoaqEhqOtmqc/bejne.html
ThangMD what an amazing video. I don’t even speak Dutch but the animation and the music kept me hooked 😅
@@hks-lion it's about the meter closet what and how its layout and where things go, water, gas, and electricity are at one point. easy access.
Why? To me is a stupid thing. I want my distribution board where it is more convenient, not where a law says that I need to place it. For example I have mine in a sort of closed that I dedicated for that job, a sort of home server room, with all the network equipment, UPS, TV amplifier, all the home automation stuff, etc. Meters placed inside the house is something that in my country is no longer done from decades, and for good reasons. First if the meter is outside (typically on a cabinet accessible from the street) you can be safe and isolate all the power coming into your home if you need to do renovations or other work, and also in case of emergency it can be isolated by the emergency service easily. Also if the meter is outside is easier for the electric company to check if the user tampered with it.
Actually, within 3 meters of a door leading outside. May be a different door than the front door.
Very nice installation. I grew up in Paris and our fuses were ceramic with lead wires. Too much load or heat and the lead would melt. I quickly learned how to refuse them.
Always enjoy the international episodes. Great video as always.
DTI plug is the plug used to check on your home base phone line ...if you loose the ringtone (or broadband line) , you test with a phone (or modem) in this plug , it cut off all the RJ plugs in the flat and you can check directly if your line is ok or not :)
From watching UK electricians channels, I can really say they have a lot to learn from their neighboring countries. This method of huge on-wall distribution boxes stowed away under the stairs or in some basement crevice is sooo pre-WW2.. sometimes I wonder whether they've by now got switch-type fuses, or whether they're still cutting fuse wire into bakelite studs. Next, why do you so insist on ring cabling? Nobody else does that nowadays, and nobody besides the UK ever did. Also pulling cables through holes in floor or ceiling beams (why are all the floors and ceilings in the UK apparently made of wood?!) is so archaic. Flex conduits are known to man since 50 years - please start using them. Third, an earth wire can be insulated like the other conductors. Really, it's quite easy. You should try making them that way some day. Bare copper anywhere is just asking for shorts.
In the UK they do not like, these days, to have electrical equipment at the front door as it is a means of escape in case of fire. Hence they may have the electric main panel in a downstairs toilet.
Between the Third World ring circuits and the electricity prices, the UK really has it bad!
I work as an electrician and Spain and couldn't agree more with your comment, it ticked every box!!
To precise : the main cutout was indeed set to the maximum power you pay for, but now the Linky (green box) do this job because it's connected, monitor the power consumption and have a cutout inside. They can lower the power to 1kw if you don't pay your bills, set the new maximum power if you update your plan or cut the electricity when you leave your appartement (ans bring it back in less than 24h when you come in your new appartement 😀)
Thanks for the video is good to see professional work like this,is the the way it should be everywhere and i hope this will inspire everyone who is into electrical installation.
From working in the uk/usa and eu I can say that the only thing I like with the french electrics is the 500ma rcd. Yes the supplies to most places are the same and they just rate the premises accordingly (interestingly street level is almost always rated the highest). I love the conduit system but there's never really extensive renovations in premises due to long tenancies from what I've experienced so once it's in it's there for the life until renew. The RCD's generally are rated to their potential leakage rates, so it's not like you can just re purpose a circuit on a bank for something with higher leakage rate, like a second oven or shower. From what I've seen they would be tncs systems but in new stuff I haven't seen a cpc, and as someone pointed out they often pull singles through for the circuits and don't bother with a cpc either. Though it's just my own experience so I can't say it's a norm for France in general. They have some things that are good that I am starting to see in commercial premises in the UK like the main cut out being an RCD or resetable breaker per phase. The overall quality of work I would not like to see here though and the quality of the electrical supply isn't great either.
I was just thinking about the quality of supply, always remember holidays in France where the lights would flicker up and down as the load presumably changed on the circuits, never seen that in the UK - though nowadays with modern LED I suppose it would probably be less apparent.
We can buy everything in Leroy Merlin, Castorama, Bricomarché & etc, the material is not expensive but the labour is.... that's why I do it myself.
The material is not expensive? Go check out how much a 4-tier Le Grand unit costs..
@@electricalstuff259 I am living in France, actually the prices is not expensive.
@@benleung2253 I lived in France for 4 years mate, everything is expensive as fuck. You can pay over 600 euro for a consumer unit in France. Go and compare power tools in France with the equivalent prices in the UK. France is ultra expensive and it's not even a debate it's a fact.
We done it like that for the past 30 years in Sweden, but we install earth/ground fail fuse as well.
Hi, have you a link to see the fuse for the gound ? it's a surge arrester ? (i'm french,)
Loving in France, and having redone the entire electricity in my house last year, I can say you’ve got the new norm in France. In my 40 years old house, the electricity was kind of garbage, with the panel like you say you have in England (in the closet), but with new norms, and very easy to use panel like the one you showed, we make by ourself the entire electricity by adding modules, you just need to take the good breaker for the type of device your using, clip it on a rail, and the wires themself are clipped in the modules. This made our entire house, with pretty heavy electronics device, with tip top clean electricity, made by ourself, for around 300-400€ (230-300 pounds I guess) for the board (we also changed a lot of cables, this was more expensive, we had for a total of 1000€ for the entire electric renovation).
Great to see this, maybe we can adopt this way of installing!
Having lived with French House Electrics for 6 years IMHO they are better and safer than UK House Electrics but more expensive to install. Namely all switchgear is double pole that is both live and neutral are switched at the distribution box, all conductors are insulated including earth, all conductors within a circuit are the same dimension including earth. This is why UK twin and earth should not be used in French House wiring. The double pole switching enables the use of the flat two pin plugs for lower current devices as it is not imperative that live and neutral are not swapped as they are both protected and swithed by the double pole protection devices. In certain areas of France where there is a higher occurrence of thunderstorms, a parafoudre or surge protector is installed to protect certain sensitive circuits also the phone line can be protected. Also the provision of the earth is a householders responsibility.
More expensive to install. VASTLY cheaper to alter if ever necessary
But you are reliant on RCDs to trip a phase to earth fault, ours will usually sink enough current to trip the MCB whether the RCD works or not.
Earth here in France is mainly TT systems that have to be less than 100 ohmes
usa been code for years to have a socket attached to panel. used to find it odd but having one for a few yrs its actually really convenient
İ'm an English electrician in the south of France, I learn' t the French system here with my apprenticeship.Great video glad you like the French system here very easy to troubleshoot. good channel
In my area in Belgium new boxes are similar but in a house like mine there are 4 circuits with an individual power(loss) breaker. 1 lights dry, 1 power dry, 1 lights wet, 1 power wet. Typically the light circuits are low amp and power higher ofcourse. The wet dry thing is that the power limitation on the wet circuits will be lower. For example the lights of the bathroom will be on lights wet, while the sockets in the living room is power dry. So any plug or light that possibly come in contact with fluid or moisture are wet (outside, kitchen, bathroom but also washer even if the rest of the room is a dry room) Separate fuses for every appliance and normal circuits are usually limited to 3 clusters per fuse and in case of outlets especially max 7 outtake points per cluster (an outtake point is allowed to have more than one plug, but I think there is an overall limit), but like I said this was in the building code when my electrics were renewed
Here in France we only have light wet/light dry separation for building receiving public, and not for power outlets for which 30mA is mandatory
In France EDF who supply all the electrical systems do not provide an earth , and amazingly electrical supplies are not regulated like the UK so they recomend voltage stabalisers as well as surge protectors . Cabling is usually single core or sheathed everythings in conduit , think brakers are all double pole as well
In Singapore the the circuit breaker panel is mounted on the wall (normally close to the ceiling.) It is not concealed. Fun fact! We use the same plug that is used in UK! i like how we can turn on/off sockets as all sockets come with switches. In other countries the sockets are always live.
Very educational video, I have watched a few videos from the UK and just didn't know what to make of it. Thanks again.
Interrupteur Differentiel makes more sense than Residual Current Device...
Or disjoncteur différentiel as we say often.
In Poland we call them "Wyłącznik różnicowoprądowy" , or coloquially, "różnicówka". "Różnica", in English `difference`. Because that what they do, they detect difference in current. I think GFCI / RCD isn't technically accurate term. As they don't really measure current to ground.
@@movax20h in germani whe claa them fi-schalter with fi standing for fehlstrom meaning missing current
@@hausaffe100 Makes sense!
"Protective tripping device" here in Russia, or "UZO" which is abbreviation for this term in russian. Rccb's are called "difavtomat" which is short for "differentsialny avtomat" - differential circuit breaker. Speaking of national differences, the most weird one for me personally is european practice of connecting the load to the top side of the breaker. In Russia and, i quess, all post soviet block, it's other way around. It seems so logical to me, that electricity goes from top to bottom, from left to right, just like text in the book. In other aspects, we have pretty much european standards. Also we don't really have regulations for home owners. Just like gentleman fron Netherlands said in the comments: "Everything beyond the power meter is your business". We also have a somewhat obscure scene of youtube/instagram electricians who does pretty neat things. Like, for example, 50+ module electrical panel for 3-room apartment with PLC for home automation system. I never saw something like that in english speaking segment of youtube, though i never really searched. Apparently we have a market for such things in a private residential sector.
French Legrand is very popular in Poland. My whole home in Warsaw (over 10 years old) is fitted with their stuff.
Neat to know. Legrand is also very common here. I'm impressed as how neat and perfect this board is. Most people will go for Legrand as Legrand stuff can be found for almsot half the price of Schneider stuff. Though, Schneider is more robust and also come with more options/integration for neat distribution panels. Tho Legrand is still top quality for house use; let's say there's a reason why in industries you do'nt see Legrand but Schneider :p
We work the exact same way back in Portugal, diference is the walls are concret blocks there,thats why took me a bit to get used to the peculiar way we work here in the UK. Nice video
Here in spain is the same (more or less) like in france. We've got that board at the entrance of the houses with diferencials? Of 30 or 300 mA. 30 mA are used at homes and 300 mA. Are for industry/supermarkets/etc
Up until the Linky smart meters were installed the main RCBO was used to set the maximum load allowed, according to the tariff you’re on. Now the Linky meter itself contains a breaker that limits the VA and can be remotely changed if you change tariff, or even cut off if you don’t pay your bill!
So very true !
8:37 it is not a telephone splitter. These are ethernet cables that are running all around your appartment so you have a wired internet connection in your bedrooms and your living room. The idea is to put your internet box in here and plug the 4 outputs to the splitter.
Nice
@@artisanelectrics look more like a DSL splitter/filter to me but you are right about the ethernet cables used in the patchbox although they are using phone cables between the splitter and the patch, I would imagine that in the building it self they just used ethernet STP cables as they are easier to work with than prehistoric analogue phone cables.
@@TommyApel Presume apartment has four sockets - if connected to phone line, it's a phone socket as is here, if connected to network, it's wired computer network - not fitted here.
@@millomweb Yea exactly, by default they put phone cables but nowadays it's pretty useless.
@@millomweb well it the intention was to use it for ethernet down the line then they'd have to redo the cable as they are not connected properly to the patch panel, the shielding needs to be attached for grounding otherwise you will have all kinds of problems with the main switch which will be placed elsewhere in the building. From a pure ethernet installation point of view this is done wrong and I doubt anyone would like to put several thousands euros worth of carrier equipment at the end of such lines only to see the ports roasted after a few months.
It's cool that you have small pictures above them to show what they are for.
The green box is the Linky electricity meter, which automatically sends all consumption information to the energy supplier by PLC, it's not sealed because there's no need, the meter automatically sends an alert to the energy supplier if it's opened.
The large green cover is actually designed to be removed by the tenant as it gives access to the off peak relay terminals. But it also gives access to a smaller cover that hides the main terminals and this one is definitely sealed unlike the first one. You're still very right about the fact that if one were to breach the tamper seal and remove the main terminal cover it would trip a micro switch and remotely send an alert to Enedis, who would then be forwarding it to your utility provider (EDF or another company). Source: I'm French.
Doing a rewire I only do radials now. I like that layout of the board.
I've just decided to go down the same route. I'd be interested to know what approach you take for kitchens. The rewire I'm doing at the moment has 2 dedicated 20A radials for dishwasher and washing machine, 1 32A cooker radial, and 1 32A radial for the remaining sockets in the kitchen (customer is looking to extend the kitchen at some point so I opted for 4mm just in case). Dedicated 20A radials to every other room.
Paul Cross I have heard a few people now do this. I’m midway through a rewire and was considering radials rather than ring mains but just thought that’s a lot of rcbos.
@@Ironmike28 Yep, it's a lot, but way easier in an occupied property.
@@pauljohncross While I like the idea, that's a lot of circuits and I'd much rather have an RCBO board than a gazillions circuits on a split-load board. We ended up running a ring circuit on 2.5mm to a bank of those grid kitchen isolator switches for the Oven, Microwave, Dishwasher, Extractor. Couldn't get a 4mm cable in and out of them so had little choice.
Mark Gilder rings don’t make sense and are far more dangerous as if for some reason the ring is open you’ll have the 2.5mm wire “protected” with a 32A mcb which is illegal. The more selectivity an installation has the better and easier to troubleshoot if ever needs troubleshooting
1:00 Same place in Germany. We use 230V, 3 phase normally. 63 A go in.
Exactly the same in Norway 🇳🇴
I live in Spain and new installations are pretty much like this nowadays. I got a twenty odd years old mess that I can’t stand looking at. There is not a single day not regretting having my house electrics redone when I bought. Good video, mate.
Its shielded cate 5e network cable coming out of the telephone patch panel, we have used it on a job were the customer was sensitive to electrical waves so wire all internet and telephone in this. Never heard of the condision before that job, the lady had a special room built with this specialist paint to act as a Faraday cage.
Worked as a electrician for 10 years in France, a good Consumer Unit 600 - 1000 euros a lot of 3 phase domestic installations. Yes all mcb’s double poled which personally should be used here.. I was using ac and a type RCD’s 15 years ago on the consumer unit. The main RCD switch amp rating can be changed depending on your contract, a lot of installations would have for example a 45amp supply, but 3 phase (15A per phase!). Try explaining that to an x-pat why the electrics keep tripping with a kettle and a heater on. As stated all installations are TT some time’s I needed to put in 4 - 8 rods to get the required 100 or less ohms independence. The Consuel. “French regulator” would come out to check and test my work (which always passed first time). The flex conduit system was great as France has many colours single wires, for instance a purple wire and a orange wire would usually be used as for two way switching “what happened to harmonising?”. Consumer units back then needed to be 1.50 to 1.8m from ffl, if I remember.
Here in Italy we have also a similar system where you pay per kW (typically you have a limit of 3.3kW). But it's implemented in a more modern way, it's entirely done by software, I mean that the meter has a software that reads the consumption and trips with a solenoid after a specified amount of time that you use more power (not amperage, so reactive power is not accounted) than the limit. If you need to upgrade the limit you simply contact your energy provider that sends a new configuration to the meter (all the meters are connected to a network with a system that is similar to the one used by powerline ethernet adapters). The downside of this system is that the software limit is super precise, and while with the old thermic meters you could easily draw more amperage for short period of time (let's say you used your hairdryer for 2 minutes with the oven on) with the modern digital meters you can't. Add to that the fact that in new installations the meter must be placed outside the house and if you surpass the limit you have to go outside in the dark to reset it.
Andy Morgan We have a holiday home converted old house/barn in the Charente and quickly found our 45A limit, chauderie,tumble drier , oh let's have a cuppa.....Ok maybe not.
@@colinshearring3934 thermosflask ... the next time or a candle
@@jyvben1520 first time we had a power cut I was so glad we had candles and our old Aladdin lamp We asked the neighbours when EDF would be in the village to sort out the problem ...in classic French shrug mode his response maybe in 2 or 3 days 🤐
@@colinshearring3934 the wine compensates ... makes it chill
the purpose of the main rcd is mainly to prevent you from stealing electricity by going from live to ground. and secondary as you mentioned as a general circuit breaker.
Interesting thanks!
at least we have that in common, 'people who try to steal electricity' !
Those where Cat cables, like for LAN, often they are used for telephone lines, because installateurs don't have to carry 2 different types of cable. And if need be you could still use them as a network line down the road.
that is pretty neat setup with all the telephony supplies and tv also your right we should do the same in the UK Surprised you weren’t tempted to open up the consumer unit !
8:35 this is Ethernet cables (color of wires are different from usual PTT telephone cable), cat5e it seems 9:00 green flexible conduit is for optical fiber, that's the standard color for FTTH in France.
Is that really cat5e cable? That's a poor installation in that case, untwisting the pairs that far can easily create interference problems in the network. You're only supposed to untwist and expose the last centimeter of the cable.
@@volundrfrey896 installers here (France) tend to use cat5e for both network and phones so they only have to stock one cable type. since this cat5e is connected to the DTI, it's most likely used for analog phone, and as such, doesn't really care about proper termination.
@@amahashadow Ah, alright fair enough. Then it doesn't matter, it just looks bad.
Hi, green conduit as just for communication cable, ethernet, 298, coaxial, optical ... not only FFTH
To be honest before I moved out from uk I thought everything was done the same way in every country. I actually realised how far behind uk actually is with technology and instalation methods. I am electrician in Poland but also in germany , still I bring ideas from Germany to Poland my home country is not that far behind like UK is. Nice vid
I see one panel in Germany, the main most important difference is in France, the electricity came up to down and down to up in Germany. So if you trip a breaker in France, the low side is safe. I always though it's because all thing is on pole and it come "from the sky" and maybe electricity is mostly burried in Germany.
I don't believe the UK is "far behind".... Just different !!
@@baremetal.engineer435 You are right Sir! Different like it's 1970 in europe :) I visit uk from time to time it feels like time travel also ! Regards
@@lapub. That's good to know. I think the logic is far more simple here, and date from the era of "knife switches" (the old ones you see in the movies, which, now that I think of it, are in most movies, pulled down to power stuff, where here, old ones I see are pulled up to power, so it's that old). I think the logic is that in an emergency, it's more natural to "pull down" than "push up" to cut power. Also, if something fall down in such a modern power board, it will cut power or do nothing, when in the other case, if something fall on "German" switches, then it may power circuits that shouldn't be powered.
@@baremetal.engineer435 In many aspects the UK is behind for sure. Caught up in having AFDDs mandatory in some installations and _recommended_ in all. The widespread adoption of AFDDs and RCBOs is ahead of France and Germany, etc. The design of UK consumer units is poor. Having DP L&N breaker in main panels is far superior to what the UK has. They have L&N bus bars making it far neater.
I'm an electrician working in France, and I fit panels like that all the time. Looking at British panels now, I wouldn't wish to go back to that. However, looking at this video (from three years ago as I type) I note that this panel techically contravenes at least one norme (regulation). There are limits to how many disjoncteurs (MCBs) can be fitted to one differentiel (RCD) and this limit has been exceeded in this panel. However, in my opinion - whatever that's worth! - it's still good. I love the system here especially the screwless components in installations, which this setup in fact is. Busbars etc are all push-fit. Brilliant.
Nice job thanks for sharing
Glad you didn’t take the lid off the linky smart meter, it definitely has a tamper switch !
You can take that cover off without fear of reprisals from EDF, the terminals for connection of a contact or for the water heater & terminals for connection of a gestionnaire de énergie are in there, so normal practice to take cover off to connect wires.
The boards here in Germany look the same. Depending on the size of the flat or the house you got several sub-boards, for example I got the meter and the MCBs for the cellar and the ground floor in the cellar. The first floor has a sub-board. It also depends on the size of the house or flat how many rows the unit should have. Every row has 12 width units (one unit is the normal width of one standard MCB). My main consumer unit got 6 rows, the sub unit got 2 rows. You can get both, surface mounted or recessed into the wall. Here you normally have NH fuses in the service entry box, electricians which are certified by the system operator to remove the fuses. In newer installations you have Neozed (D0) fuses before the meter or a selective main circuit breaker. The Neozed and the selective breaker can be operated by the customer. NH fuses not, because you require a special grip to remove them. And there's no protection against putting in a fuse with a rating which would be too high. So the service entry box is sealed here. The certified electricians here are permitted to remove the seal, and remove or insert the fuses, and then seal it when they finished their work. Here you can't buy fully equipped consumer units, only empty ones. The electricians equip them individually with the required MCBs, RCDs, RCBOs for the needs of the customer. The selective RCD in the french board is propably there because afaik they have a TT grid. And to get proper disconnecting times the best thing to do is to install RCDs. I also installed an outlet in my sub-unit in the first floor. The sub-unit is fused with three 50A Neozed fuses in the main unit. Three-phase is common here in domestics, but in most cases you'll have only one three-phase outlet, and that's in the kitchen. It's for the kitchen cooker/baking oven, mostly 5G2.5mm² fused with 3x16A (~11 kW). The cooker is a 230V, but the load is divided equally on all three phases. The hob is connected to L1 and L2 (one large and one small heating plate on one phase), the baking oven is connected to L3. The VDE banned the type AC RCDs in 1984 for new installation, so type A RCDs are the standard RCDs in Germany since then.
In Germany the circuit breakers for normal sockets or the light allow 10/16 A. 16 A maximum and 10 A long term usage. This is to prevent overheating. Doorbells usually run on low voltage (12-24 V) and the power supply is build in as well.
Having lived in rural France I can tell you the same man who rewires your house also fixes dripping taps, blocked toilets, leaking roofs and paints your windows. I asked the local "electrician" to fit a new earthed socket. When I came back he'd stapled a pice of wire at waist height around half the room and fixed a surface mounted socket (loosely) on the wall. It wasn't earthed. It's a joke - they're forty years behind the uk.
Had to chuckle at your comments as it is the same in rural Spain. Yes on new builds things have changed a lot but as you say many of the old boys in the villages are lets say multi skilled. In fact our GP is also the dentist on certain days.
Reminded me of a time me and Mrs went to a bungalow on holiday and I took my mft and said don't switch the kettle on until I do a zs oh did I get in trouble
That did make me laugh. 😊
It looks pretty similar in Norway, only we don’t use single pole breakers.
Also rather similar to installations in Denmark, event my flat built in the early 1950's (and judging by the fuses, not many if any, changes has been made). One difference though: the stove and oven has a 3 pole 16A breaker and single 3 pole outlet in the kitchen. But other than that, very similar. And I suppose that at least these days, such similarities make sense, as many technical installations has been standardized (with few variations) in the EU.
It's two poles breakers in 1-width modules here, allways. I noticed all other europeans seems using two poles in 2-width modules. Strange.
2:00 Yes, in France we pay according to the max consumption subscribed. The main RCD is historically variable for that reason, but since new meters like you show were installed (about 5 years ago), the RCD is always set to its maximum: the subscription limit is handled by the meter itself (and can be remotely changed)
I had 3 C16 radials installed in the garage for my 16 amp plug sockets as the B16 were constantly tripping, due to massive inertia of cast aluminium fan in extractor, or powering a 315mm blade through material. Much better with the C curve.
That's right, when you subscribe for electricity distribution, the price of the monthly fixed fees vary according to the max power you subscribed for (3kVA, 6kVA, ...)
Seems a bit daft. What do you do if you only need the lower power 99% of the time !!
@@millomweb same thing in Finland, you basically pay for the reserve that is allocated to you when building the local grid. We have it priced according to main fuses of the client. 3x25A, 3x35A etc and the monthly fixed fee varies according to the max load you can take. Basically if all clients on the street takes bigger main fuses, heavier cables are needed to feed the local distribution box etc that adds the cost. On top of that you pay few cents per kWh for two parties, the owner of the grid and for the power supplier.
@@millomweb Pay. I live in France, the standing charge rises with rising consumption set limits but the price per unit goes down. Being very rural I may only have 12kW owing to line length but I run all the usual stuff, electric cooker (I have a gas hob too), 3 way split A/C and a pool heat pump, never tripped their breaker but local lightning will. You learn to be sensible with power and not flippant. You can also do "off-peak" by arrangement. In fact the EDF bill arrived yesterday for July and Aug, we do get 30° normally and days at mid 30's are quite usual, so A/C and 8hrs/day of 550W pool pump with a couple of days total of the heat pump is €248.59 on a simple tariff for 1368kW/h. The wiring is way better and no copper saving fudges of ring mains, flex conduit come pre-loaded if you want, ground wires are totally covered too, no T+E here. I rather like the French norm of a light switch at every doorway, I have four in the kitchen and they are just push buttons that trip a latching relay. Historically rural areas have had, and may still do in places, very tender supplies and a limit of just 3kW, but 3ph supplies domestically is/was common, I have all the phases in the EDF meter box and the cooker and immersion heater can be linked single or 3ph. Three phase domestic plugs and sockets are quite usual too.
@@millomweb Then you avoid the 1% of the time and save money or you pay across the board for all your usage. By doing this low power consumers ( usually poor or living in small properties) are not subsidising the higher power users.
@@Karjis I even asked re feed to a house and feed to a large industrial site here in England. Once the adequate supply is installed, fixed fee is the same no matter how much power you use! I suspect cost is to pay for the meter reader !
Hi! About the main RCD, before the green multifunctions thingy 'linky', the counter was only to count consumption, the main rcd was set depending of your power subscription. Electric subscription comes in several options, starting from 1kA single phase to 64kA triphased. It was neat thing to limit your subscription to what you need and a reminder if you overload your subscription: the rcd just jumped off, telling you "oh you're going overboard". In my early life, I lived in a small condo with 3kA electic power (heating and water was common in the building, gas for cooking, so electric was only for common appliance), which kept the subscription cheap. It happened a few time to go over it... like starting the washingmachine, vacuuming and guess what, hun in shower starting the hairdryer... then everything blew up when the main rcd jumped off. It was a good thing to regulate how you use electricity. If that happened, you just had to unplug somethign and switch back the rcd.... Now wih that green box, there no limiter, if you go overboard, the green box will jump and switch to a higher subscription... and you'll get a surprise when receiving the bill (of course, changing subscription comes with fees.....clever move from electric companies). Also there was a trick with these rcd, 500mA trip power, it's 1 line protected (it doesn't work on double line protected).... you could install a 100w bulb between main line and earth without tripping it... and this was not counted as consumption (though, the rcd might trip very easily as the remaining "leak" would be 100mA). This was quite dangerous though, as you put live current to earth, anyone touching earth somewhere could be... ehm enlighted? Also, you forgot to talk about the main plug, it's oustide the condo, somewhere in technical panel, it cuts all electricity from main powerline... useful with noisy party neighbours at 2 am
You're wrong on multiple point Electric subscription for domestic user are 3 6 9 12 Kva mono and 6 9 12 15 18 24 30 36 KVA tri. Linky the new "smart counter" operate as a limiter that open the circuit if you go over the subscription. Only your provider can change the subscription level and it never do it by himself. The fees are far less than it was when they must come and change it manually. All the multiple set RCDB are set to the maximum rate that the wire to the main distribution line can hold this allow to change the subscription to this max value remotely. . typically 60 A sometime 30A for older tri (30A Tri is rated as 18KVA as they took 200V as a ref 30*200=18000 even if it's now 230-240V) you may also have 30A in mono if it's a former tri switch to mono. at a time 90A mono was allowed but it's now discontinued. New breakers are fixed value ones. They operate in case of short as linky didn't have arc blowing system in it, he never trip on a sudden inrush as it would be destructive for him. This f As A rcd detect a difference of current in wires that go through him it can't be a single wire device ! The trick you tell about "free electricity" is outdated, it come from the 110 to 220V switching, at this time the phase to phase voltage was 220, when they switch to 220 the meter was between phase A and B , and as the meter sense intensity on one wire A at this time if you put a load between phase B and earth they were no intensity on A, the meter can't turn. but you got 110V . Now all these old distribution have been updated as all theses older transformer reached their end of life. So mono is phase to neutral only by now. RCD everywhere is also a good thing as instead of arcing and burning slowly as it does in place like USA where the eart is linked to the neutral in the board, if the fault was not high enough to make a short and trip the breaker, it trip at the first fault. It also prevent the earth grounding system to bee "cooked" by the current flowing and if you don't have any RCD at all, you may put a phase to a case and have full phase tension on it as the path to the neutral has far higher resistance than the path from the transformer phase. "The main plug" is a fuse box that is a "last resort" is something goes wrong as sometimes breakers can fail but a fuse just can't fail. This is not a thing you can touch as they are only to operate by the electric facility "ENEDIS". It's really dangerous to put you hand here as you have huge section feed that allow hundred's of amps without any protection (even if there may have a 400 rated fuse in the transformer box) so you will be the fuse to be blown.
Poland has installations similar to the French one and we also have French standard sockets. In Poland, the RCD 300mA is mandatory in facilities at risk of fire and on farms. The 30mA RCD is mandatory for all outlet circuits and for devices operating in humid conditions. SPD is required for each new installation. Proper earthing installation of buildings and facilities in accordance with the standards is required. The protective earth must be less than 30 ohms and if there is also a lightning protection system (LPS) it must be less than 10 ohms. Most electricians try to ground less than 10 ohms for the protective grounding without LPS as well. The basic grounding system in Poland is the TN system, but there are also old TT system networks. Our main panels are mainly intended for electrical installation. TV, internet and telecommunications usually have their own separate panel. The device for measuring energy consumption in new installations is installed outside the property in a separate box and there is a main safety switch there
Hi, If you open the Linky (green box), you can find a socket (3 wires) to connect a little computer to read the electricity consumption in real time. Some Wallbox for car can read this information and adapt in real time the charge of the car.
I worked in 2 different countries in UE and I saw that they are far away in electricity installations with all my respect to UK sparks ⚡️
Actually the general RCD is set to 45A because it is not needed anymore since in the the green box on its left (called "Linky") wich counts and limits power consumption according to the subscribed contract. It also runs as a general RCD as well if IIRC. (En francais: le disjoncteur est mis à 45A car en fait c'est le Linky qui s'occupe de cela à présent. Il sert aussi de disjoncteur différentiel si je me souviens bien)
Différentiel sûrement pas ! Il ne fait pas de mesure sur le neutre.
Loved your video. Have no interest in electrical stuff generally but it was wonderful, the mix of genuine surprise, marvel and expertise at the same time, very interesting.
Thank you very much!
It really is a nicely laid out distribution panel.
It always strikes me that after 40 years of european attempted integration, we tried to harmonise on the wrong things. Standard cucumber-oh yes, thats a good idea. Standardised timber sizes, no we won't bother. Sell petrol in litres, yes, we'll do that. Sensible electrical, code, no we won't learn that.
wait, I though brexit was because of the standardized cucumber size.
Well, the standard cucumber size meme is wrong, the requirement was made by supermarkets to reduce space. And in the comments here it shows that this is the standard wiring (with minor differences) in Sweden, Slovenia, Germany, Poland, France and very likely all other continental EU member states. So everybody except the UK? did learn that lesson...
actually all europe doing electrics roughly like this except britain
@@hausaffe100 lol, at least britain has a standard
There is a European standard code for electrical : the Low Voltage Directive of 2014. At the same period, you had also a useful directive about toilets and WC, that made laugh lot of people, but that allows to standardize toilets and flushing equipments. Standardization in EU is a long way. That will take time. For railway signaling, the standardization began in 2014 and won't end before at least 2030.
The rcbo main cut out is definitely the way to go.
Definitely think we need to get rid of the cartridge fuses, I can't see any point in the rcd though, when would you would ever install a 500mA S type rcd directly feeding a board? For it to be of any use in this situation would require one of the rcd's to fail, and even then it'll let through half an amp, hardly very safe. Then what if you need to install lots of items notorious for earth leakage? What about life support systems? A board with rcbo's which are tested regularly is a better installation than this (if you forget about the cut out fuse!)
I think it's not your typical RCBO because it's only got a thermal trip, no short-circuit protection but I might be wrong. Has the advantage of not tripping in case of a short in one of the final circuits, plunging the entire place into darkness. In Austria, where I was trained, some DNOs also charge a standing fee based on the supply size. They use a simple adjustable thermal cutout without RCD protection, presumably because all new supplies are TN-C-S and don't require a main RCD, only TT supplies do and they were banned in 1998 with very few exceptions (high Zs, influence of DC or low-frequency AC supplies, i.e. railway power networks, which are 16.7 Hz). France is 100% TT as far as I know. C-type MCBs are common in places that tend to use 10 amps for socket circuits and places that have blanket RCD protection (in a TN-C or TN-C-S without RCD protection the Zs may be high enough to make using C-type MCBs impossible). BTW, the weirdest adjustable supply size I've ever seen was 17 amps three-phase! There were two separate supplies, the 17 amp for day rate and another 20 amp for storage heaters. We did manage to trip the main using the cooker, water heater and bathroom heater at the same time one night! The place was built in the first half of the 60s and mostly original.
@@Ragnar8504 very interesting, thermal cut out ay? Reliable enough to protect the supply cable, what's the advantage of using one over a time delayed MCB or fuse?
@@felixmoran1 The RCD is installed because its a TT system in France you supply your own earth protection .
@@steverobinson8170 bit weird that the dno don't provide an earth but provide an RCD? I could be wrong but surely you can't use s type rcd's for ads?
Hi, type A RCD is required as per the applicable standard NF C 15-100 for washing machines, hot plates and EV chargers. I have in mind the standard also requires you should have two RCDs, at least one being type A. You may use type A everywhere if you like to.
The LINKY has a circuit breaker inside as well, the DTI box is for the cable TV and internet
This is a specific installation obviously we can’t generalize some nice interesting ideas. It would be good to see an older install and compare that. I would also like to see a German/Swiss new and old install that would be I guess the benchmark in terms of quality. As you say it’s a great install. Enjoy yourself glad you managed to get away can’t have been easy in these times. Stay safe. In the USA we are probably way behind in terms Organization and design. However there are higher end panels that have all the bells and whistles. One basic example is the use of class A RCDs not just at the breaker but on individuals circuits/sockets which are continuously and automatically self testing. I have spoken about power over Ethernet installs which goes in advanced low power installs.
In France they tend to use a lot of junction boxes, in older installations the sockets and lights are run side by side
@@steverobinson8170 JBs are common in places with conduit installations. WIthout them, pulling wires can get quite nasty! The Austrian regs actually limit runs to 10 m between pull boxes/JBs but few sparks actually stick to that. I once had the very dubious pleasure of pulling over 18 metres of five 10 mm2 singles through 40 mm flexi conduit with something like nine 90-degree bends from the meter cabinet on the ground floor to the DB on the first floor. The journeyman was feeding the wires from upstairs, screaming "Faster! Faster!" in Croatian and the very lightweight apprentice and me were hanging onto the pull wire with our combined full weight downstairs! Even getting the pull wire in was a nightmare, we tried every trick in the book including hooking the cordless drill to the wire in order to twist it while pushing, trying to get it around a stubborn bend. We ended up cutting the conduit, thankfully the screed hadn't been laid, otherwise we'd have been utterly screwed! I didn't work long for that contractor!
@@Ragnar8504 , In france the boxes are not just to facillitate pulling of cables through they actually use them as connection points too in older installations , i do like the idea of flexi conduit , however i also see the downfall if you want to extend or alter the circuit or add extra lights or sockets
Singapore as a former UK colony has the BS1363 wall socket system but obviously not ring circuits. Distribution boards in projects built or renovated since the 1980s use DIN rail mounted everything, and modern condos have boards that look pretty much like what you have there. Typically there's nowadays also a shelf inside the cabinet with power and ports for fiber termination equipment and ethernet in case you want to hook up a switch or router or wifi repeater in a few locations around the house.
Singapore can have ring circuits as they have the BS1363 fuse in the plug. You will find they are not banned. They are not banned anywhere as far as I know.
@@johnburns4017The plug fuse is nothing to do with the ring main. The plug fuse is present to protect the appliance cable. The only protection for the ring main is the circuit breaker. The plug fuse does not limit the current in the ring main. It limits the current in the appliance cable and the current coming through the power socket into which the plug is inserted.
@@deang5622 The fuse-in-plug makes the ring very much feasible.
@@johnburns4017 No it doesn't. It is nothing to do with it. I can have 10 sockets and have appliances plugged in, each appliance drawing 13 amps. The fuse in the plug is rated 13 amps. That is a total load current in the ring of 130 amps. The fuse in each plug does not blow as the current in each appliance cable does not exceed the current rating for that plug fuse. However, the circuit breaker for the ring which is 32 amps will trip because the total load current of 130 amps is greater than the breaker rating. Now tell me again, which protective device is protecting the ring, the plug fuse or the circuit breaker at the origin of the circuit in the distribution board?
@@johnburns4017 It is possible to have a ring main without any plug top fuses. The purpose of the fuse in the plug top is, as the majority of people know, is to protect the appliance cable. So why do we need it? After all we have a circuit breaker at the origin of the circuit, located in the distribution board, and that provides over current protection. The reason why we need a fuse in the plug top is because the current rating of the appliance cable is rated lower than the installation cable running to the socket outlet. The breaker at the origin of the final circuit is rated to protect the circuit cable, but if that is rated at 32 amps, that breaker rating is far too high to protect the appliance cable which is rated at say 15 amps. Hence the reason why the plug top fuse is required. So the fuse in the plug is selected according to the current rating for the appliance cable, irrespective of whether that socket outlet is on a ring final circuit or a radial circuit. Let me say that again, the plug fuse is there to allow for the mismatch in cable current ratings from the electrical installation cable connecting from the distribution board to the power socket and the appliance cable between the plug and appliance. So with that in mind, if our appliance cable were to be rated to the same current rating as the installation cable (typical twin & earth) to the socket from the distribution board, we don't need a fuse in the plug. Why? Because that appliance cable is adequately protected from over current by the circuit breaker in the distribution board. So what I have just described to you, is the implementation of the ring main *WITHOUT* using *ANY* plug top fuses. Ergo, you don't need plug top fuses to implement a ring main. Do you understand now? If you don't understand then say so, ask questions to seek further clarification, don't just turn round and say "You don't know what you are talking about". This is an opportunity for you to improve your understanding.
the problem with the main rcd is actually energy dissipation in a fault something hrcs do a bit better reducing damage to the rest of the circuit
I leave in the UK now but I used to work as a electrician apprentice in Portugal and this is how we used to work on new buildings 20 years ago.
Interesting main switch/RCD is 45A and the rows in the consumer unit total over 100A. What's their diversity calcs/formula?
In all fairness, installing something like a 20 amp breaker just to plug in a fridge sounds like overkill. A single circuit for all the sockets in the kitchen together with one for the hob and oven would be more than plenty.
@Brigadelok.com Also keep in mind that breakers are designed to protect against fire due to short-circuits or wires overheating. They are rated by the selection of the wiring downstream, not necessarily their intended load current.
LOL in the Netherlands we have a whole closet for that :)
True in Norway 🇳🇴 as well
Thanks for your video! I'm proud to be french. In my country norms and controls don't laugh... It's not simple everyday! But it's for best security...
I know they use a bunch of heaters but I would still recommend using type B MCBs.. A short circuit combined with a loose connection would cause problems using those C20..
It's so funny to see the differences of insallations in europe .. i tought electricity was electricity .... In Belgium al meters have an automatic fuse of ( TECO in older installations ) And you have to place 1 300mA type A RCB in front of the complete fuse board ( TYPE AC is forbidden will not be approved ) and at least 1 30mA for Bath Room . So when we have earth leakage of +300mA .. the hole house has no power .. We also use C curve brakers with 3000 or 6000ka ( closer to power it's recommmended ) . We also need to use double pole breakers . We can't connect all neutrals together like in UK & Germany & NL .. Main reason for this is we have still al lot of 3X230V coming from the grid w/o neutral ( 230V between 2 fases ) . Light ciruits or 1,5mm on 16A breaker Sockets on 2,5mm 20A ( max 8 groups of sockes on 1 breaker ) .
230V between phases - that's different ! 300mA RCB - last week, might have tripped a 30A RCB ! We don't have one - so no loss of power when the dishwasher went bang ! And everything worked normally after the bang !
300mA is great. Impossible to have huge rogue currents. But in bigger residential installations it is allowed to use configurable RCD’s with time delay. So you can get your topology right. I use mostly Legrand DPX.
hi i am electrician in France, there is no certification for board, just if you have meter disconnected before doing installation and board your needs to pass inspection who is more simple compared with you testing in uk(i follow one of your colleagues in London). In some old houses you can still have old fuses but regular electricians don't have access to them. Personally fuse spares that you have in uk will be handy for me in France specially in renovation often you have very very old and messy installation and client are not willing to make big investments. Green meter is open because you have one contact inside for command your boiler (for using cheer electricity).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can see on the first line, most of the plugs and lights but if my memory is correct the NF-C15-100 tell that you have to separate them on two lines in case of a problem on one of them ( so you don't get in full dark if it arrives) but I don't remember if you have to or if you just should
@@thierryboucherat3191 i don't understand your question but by the book you need minimum 2 light circuits in appartement or in house, in old installations here i see one fuse of 20a for the line in which you have several sockets, an on the same line you have several lights but in every light switch you have fuse for 6a it's also safe for installation if you think 😊
i moved over 9 years ago to a property empty for 40 year. Got the man out to connect/test the supply and he left saying all ok but when i fit the consumer unit make sure the supply is off or i'll be dead. i've played with electrics for decades but no sparky, was an interesting learning curve.
Nice setup! the architect knew what he wanted when he remodeled... here in the US, Schieder Electric is known as Square D brand... I have that brand in my home. the setup you are looking at is one on the nicest setups available.... schieder electric is a very reliable brand! are the individual breakers labeled for the circuits the feed? makes it easier to cut the power to a individual circuit when you know which breaker goes where.... Nice video!
I agree that you have shown us a nice convenient installation. But before we extol "The French Way" too much: If you look in older French properties - which haven't been all tarted up to meet Gîte regulations - you'll find lots of «Cauchemars» (nightmares). Our house was rewired in the late 1980s. It was 3KVA, 3phase when we moved in in 1993. All the wiring came out of three jammed ceramic fuse-wire holders, then all wiring, radial, unidentified, came from some large sized «dominos» (plastic terminal or choc blocks). This was behind a wood panel in the toilet room. I grant you, it was at a convenient face level. Fine if a spark should jump out! Another nice touch: French regs say: you mustn't connect the house earth to the water pipes you must earth the immersion heater tank (which of course connects to the water piping.) I think they mean you mustn't use water pipes as the house earth. Increasingly water is piped into the house in plastic pipes, so that's logical. Certainly in the countryside you have to provide your own house earth. They sell earth rods for this purpose, and in typical dry limestone areas in summer you'll be lucky to get below 100 ohms, compared with UK 2 ohm requirement. The soil in the centre of my barn retains some moisture through the summer so I drove a long length of iron pipe into it for my earth. All new houses are single phase. Ring mains are of course forbidden here, but they have some advantages: they save copper in two ways: 16A cables provide a 32A main, AND in radial systems the total length of cabling is far greater. And don't forget that very high current devices like cookers always had their own cabling direct from the meter box - never off a ring main. Storage heaters had their own high current ring main. I think the yellow faced meter in the video was a hated «Linky» meter, a smart meter which minimises your available consumption such that start-up currents on some devices which were OK on spinning-disk meters will trip you out. The French hate these and have held vigorous campaigns against them. And oh yes, they are a fire risk, too. Our house is now 6KVA 1-ph with a smaller version of the DIN panel - I rewired it using fuses because I've had experience of electric disturbances producing spurious trips. And when I had to reset the trips I had to do it in the dark. I din't get the logic of three trips totalling (45+63+63) amps being fed through the company's 45A trip.
A tt system in the UK 2 ohms that's totally wrong
@@henrystevens2258 Sir, 1 - Perhaps you would provide the current earthing regulation? 2 - Yes, I admit my info was out of date. In Spring 1961, during my S.E.B apprenticeship, we installed an overhead service to the Coastguard Cottages at Wool, Dorset. As part of the installation we had to provide a 2 ohm (maximum) local earth. To this end we dug a 30 yard × 30 inch deep trench and laid a length of cable along its floor. We covered it at first with about 6 inches of soil and trod it down. We measured the resistance to earth with a Megger and read about 55 ohms. The gang then all peed into the trench and brought the resistance down to 19 ohms. We finished the backfill of the trench. The following morning (there had been no overnight rain) the resistance was too small to measure. 3 - I don't expect the regs will have changed that much since then - but you'll tell us all, won't you. And yes, I'm 79 now, and officially a P. O. C.
@@jjmcrosbie 200 ohms
@@jjmcrosbie listen Clive it doesn't matter what age you are ,are when you last work at the electrical trade in the UK If your not up with the uk regs don't say anything
Tt 200 ohms Tncs. 35 ohms Tns. 8 Is that could enough for you
Wanne see some pics of a Common, up to date german Installation?
yeah. meet me round the back in 10 minutes?
Yes, in France everything is run through conduits. That makes repairs SOOOOO MUCH EASIER and way less invasive. And all our outlet boxes are round and plastic (and air-tight to avoid thermal bridges). That makes installing so much easier. You drill a 68 mm hole, you pop in the box, tighten two screws, that's it. It only takes a few minutes.
Thermal bridge when there is a conduit?
Come to former Yugoslavia. We have consumer 3 phase consumer plugs in homes for heaters, stoves, motors. Even the smallest 20sqr meter apartments have 3 phase.