Fault Finding - You Will Never Guess What It Was...
Fault Finding - You Will Never Guess What It Was...
Join me as I do a tricky little fault-finding job.
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I have a midi keyboard which plays music in my computer. It's powered by a USB connection to the computer. There are no problems with electricity in the house. However, for a year now, playing this keyboard or other keyboards results in tripping the switch after a while. Tried 3 different keyboards, mains powered and USB and tried three different computers. Had the latest RCD recently installed I'm case dc current was leaking. Its still tripping. I write and record music for a living and am doing a sound engineering degree. It's wrecking havoc. The circuit that trips powers the sockets upstairs. Aside from the computer and two table lamps, there is only an Internet router and a TV plugged in the bedroom. If i set up the keyboard downstairs in the kitchen it trips the RCD which of course cuts all power to the house. Three electricians and hundreds of euro later, I'm none the wiser. Any suggestions would be most appreciated!
Nice to see you that you didn't just say you need a new oven.
I wonder what would have cost the least though 🙈
@@gammeldansk at his £80 an hour plus parts £200
Oh so you do appliance repair as well. All those things we do that we don't have on our business cards....
@Ellis The DJ but perhaps if one element has gone, the others aren't far behind. replacing an element as DIY will always be cheaper, but if yiu end up doing 1 at time with callout charge, maybe not
@Ellis The DJ that’s great, if you are skilled and confident enough to do that sort of repair. If not labor costs could become an issue as could parts markup, the £20 repair could easy become around £100
I was in the electrical industry for 45 years, retired now for 20 years. BUT, it is so good to see your methodical procedures when fault finding! I was very impressed with the video using Stud Buddy and installing the LED lights too. Thank you. This is much, much better than watching BBC TV.
The elements are connected permanently to neutral on one side with a relay switching power. If the element touches earth along its length it can trip an RCD even if the oven isn't on as it gives the other circuits on the RCD an alternative circuit. For example, a tiny amount of current will go though an MCB, to the heat pump, back to the neutral bar, along the cooker neutral, into the element and back down the cooker CPC. (The bulk will go from the neutral bar direct to the RCD.) The higher the power draw on the other circuits the more will leak though the cooker element making it more likely you'll reach 30mA of leak. Nice to see you helping some people out. 🙂
This comment should be pinned. Really good explanation, and a good reason to test circuits individually and together.
Well explained, my thoughts exactly (floating neutral)
Agree that this comment should be pinned, I was going to write the pretty much the same. It seems to be a common misunderstanding that the circuit with the power on (in this case the Heat Pump) is where the fault is, it can be anywhere on the shared neutral path. Before disconnecting anything in the CU (which I'm not qualified to do, so obviously didn't do), I would unplug or switch off (at the double pole isolators if possible) anything on circuits powered by the RCD, focusing on anything with a heating element (which does this happen when dishwashers are full of dirty water)
Good comment! I was drawing this so I could understand it better. Let’s say that it was connected rightfully (phase to phase). Wouldn’t the neutral still be connected to the CPC? Though there would be the resistance of the heating element in series now between neutral and the cpc. I hope my comment makes sense😄
@@Frederik19951995 yes I think I follow you and I think we're on the same page... The cooker element is connected correctly. The element shorts to CPC. Even if phase isn't connected, the neutral end of the element links through the resistive load of part of the element to CPC. Some of the other circuits can then use this link from neutral to CPC to trip the RCD. :)
Excellent Jordan not bad for an hour and half of work. Glad you went out to help the elderly couple sort the issue out we need more people to look out for our seniors.
I like your calmness when fault-finding. I usually shout and swear and question the point of life before pulling myself together. 😂
Excellent job! As an electrician, it would have been easier for you to have just said that it was the oven, disconnect it and walk away. That little extra bit of troubleshooting and repair service to your customer. Ensures that they will be talking you up with everyone they know.
one more oven for the laandfill
couldnt agree more. somtimes the oven is over 10yrs old and never been cleaned no way investigating that for a fault
I’d have guessed an issue with the oven element only because we had the same issue with our oven. It was tripping for a few days and then the oven stopped working, replaced the element which was goosed and the problem was solved.
Its rare I comment on anything online, but I gotta say that as a trainee spark your videos are really enlightening. Thank you for sharing your experiences 😀👍
Same :D
Nice find mate ! Good to see you went an extra mile to find the exact culprit too . As a HVACR service tech I'm glad it wasn't the heat pump !
I'd keep an eye on that one Jordan, have had a few where the reason the element blew is that the fan is slow (running, but the bearings dry or gummed up). Appears to work normally but massively overstresses the new element. Sometimes you can get a kit of motor+element almost as cheap as the element alone :)
I had the RCD trip on a freestanding oven recently, took the back off and grease had found its way down the back, through the metal cover and all over the terminal block causing the electricity to track across the terminal block plastic to the metal casing.
That was the universe telling you to re-think your diet...
I did a CU upgrade with rcbos last year and after the upgrade a few days later I got a call from the client saying the cooker (free standing) rcbo was tripping. Fixed wiring wasn’t the issue (all tests prior to CU upgrade were within limits) so put the earth leakage clamp onto the cpc of the cooker circuit and turned the oven on. Leakage current slowly rose until rcbo dropped = faulty appliance. I would never have had the balls to open the appliance to investigate in the way you did, thanks for the tip I may try to investigate further next time round!
Well done - I had exactly the same fault on my daughters cooker, only hers was very intermittent, so was harder to trace.
This channel gets me boosted up to tackle my day to day job as an electrician.
Omg awesome service, well done Sir! Lovely to see someone go the extra mile!
Nice one. Good fault finding and great to go the extra mile and help the vulnerable
Great troubleshooting. Helped me a lot to find RCD tripping - ground leakage issue in our home. Thank you for posting!!
If only all tradesmen were as honest as you. Good man. 🙂
I recently discovered your channel and really appreciate watching your processes with out you projecting a God complex. Nice to see a mortal electrician at work.
Great video, honesty and integrity rare these days.
Fair play to you, I would of just trace the fault to the cooker and recommend an appliance engineer. Remember to bake them a pie when you install the new element, just so you know it’s all good 😉
Haha nice customer service tip
" I would of just trace the fault" ???
Patrick Powers there’s always one, and it’s normally me 😂
Tanx for the upload always enjoy your fault finding videos👍
You’re welcome
My Dad was the Crabtree importer/distributor for Ireland from 60's to 90's. I recognised that cooker switch faster than the RCD could see the earth leak!
Isn't it true that Eire doesn't allow cooker switches with sockets, but B&Q and their ilk still sell the dang things there? LOL
@@TheChipmunk2008 That's one I can't answer, I'm not a "sparks" but both B&Q and Screwfix are busy here so quite possible indeed!
Cooker switch with socket on it are not allowed due to been on a 32Amp mcb. Also at present cookers are fixed appliance's that do not require automatic disconnection through an RCD so that is the main reason they are outlawed . This is changing in 2021 new rules forcing all circuits to have RCD protection much like the UK regs. Introduction of surge protection, AFDD's Dual RCD or full RCBO DB's. Wiring changing to low smoke T&E. But cookers will still be classed as a fixed appliance so no sockets are allowed on same circuit.
@@ccrino9525 what part of Ireland you from? Looking to get a 12 way domestic consumer unit change to new spec with all rcbo + surge protection, metal enclosure etc
@@garrypkeogh im based in the north west garry. 1st thing you need is to get the installation tested to ensure there's no faults. If its domestic metal enclosure is not necessary but RCBO'S , Surge protection is recommended. Your bonding in hotpress, sinks and earth rod are things you could inspect yourself however sparks will need to verify continuity. Meter tails is also something we check in older houses. Meters no longer allowed inside dwellings must be on outer walls at side of house. Where are you based.
I'm glad you posted this...I was wondering what the problem was :)
Or someone been into cooker before you and changed element, took those spade terminals off the back and incorrectly refitted them? Unusual for manufacturers to get polarity wrong. I change loads of elements every year, classic meltdown and RCD tripping. I once had a cooker isolator switch not switch the live as it was fused on the contacts, so N was disconnected but not L.. 😏 always check its dead, and always switch off at the CU.
When I was newly married I put a joint with hot stock in the oven on a timer so it would be ready when my Mrs got home. I got a call at work saying there's no power in the house. The fault was the oven had cutin but the steam from the stock had made an earth fault so it tripped the house out. I had to put a lecy fire in the oven to dry it out. Late tea tonight!!!!
Brilliant job bud,well done
Great job! You found .02 ohms. The circular element enables your oven to operate in convection mode. If your oven makes regular use of this element in its various cooking programmer, it can end up wearing out, causing the power to trip. If you want to check whether it's working properly or not, first disconnect the appliance from the electricity supply, then unplug the wires from the circular element and insulate them with electrical tape. Switch your oven on to see if it now works as normal. If the power no longer trips, you will probably need to replace this element. Thumb up!!!!!! Cheer!
This would not leave the appliance in good order. The temptation to just check the element without checking the appliance can generate an embarrassing claim for negligence. The Sparkie world doesn’t have the same problems with negligence claims because, mostly, it’s hard to evidence who did what; see various other videos. Poor appliance repairs causing damage are much easier to track and sue!
I was hoping we'd see this. Thank you!
Nice! I'll keep in mind the polarity check!
This one was really interesting! I'm glad that fault wasn't at my place with the old Wylex fuses!
Great video, very impressed with how you took care regarding the fault on the oven, most electricians would of just diagnosed the fault to the oven and said just get it repaired or replaced👍
Yeah, i've found ovens and domestic appliances to be quite lucrative to repair. if it's simple like that, (the element, not the rev polarity thing!), then it saves them a great deal to pay electrician's rates, rather than 'bend over and think of England' appliance repair technician rates!
Those elements in fan asisted ovens are held with 3 clips around the circumference. . The element go oval shaped as they expand and contract and the fan blade starts cutting into it and viola!! had a 2yr old BE*O oven that did that. Had same fault....but oven was wired correctly.
I’m jealous, why can’t I have nice clean ovens like this one to repair 😢
I used to work in the telecomms industry and once found an interesting factory polarity fault on a supergroup modulator card in the early 1970s. The problem was low gain. I traced the fault to an electrolytic capacitor installed the wrong way round. The pos/neg symbols on the capacitor itself were reversed, so when card was built with the capacitor installed according its markings, it would have superficially looked ok but was actually reversed.
So how did you test that the electrolytic was reversed?
When you identified the cooker circuit as the culprit I knew it was a broken element. Our hot tub heater element failures are the usual cause of tripping the RCD on our CU.
👍
Thank you, great video
It is great that you did a thorough test and not just condemned the cooker. Just a point, as an Ex Fire Officer, did you feed your diagnosis and conclusion as to why the fault occurred? This may be common on that make and model. A recall or inspection by the manufacturers may be required. Keep up the good work.
Had a few of these element failures tripping RCD's - also 1 where the fan, in the fan assisted oven failure at a certain heat/ temperature and tripped the RCD
I love the fact you carried out tour work. Then still fixed the appliance for them. Great work mate!
Thnks
Hourly rate
You do amazing work !
Thanks
Just a thought. It may be worth suggesting to the customer, to have the heating moved onto an RCBO.
No circuit shall effect the safe operation of another circuit under fault conditions - This was a prime example of why split and main RCD boards don't comply and why many companies now will put any CH/HW appliance on it's own circuit and RCBO when quoting for the job. Ours does any time it's a situation with someone going through cancer treatment or such alike as it's vital they don't get cold with a weakened immune system as a lack of heating can be fatal.
Good thought, were due to do an EICR anyway and will prob suggest RCBO board upgrade.
@@effervescence5664 "Effect the SAFE operation" eg no fault can make another circuit unsafe. It has nothing to do with rendering it inoperative.
I would say depends on how old that cooker is .Basic cooker to cost of repair obviously depends on customer, good fault finding though.
@@grahamek86 Could argue that if it's switching off other circuits, it's actually making them safer.😀
Had a similar one a couple of years back on a washing machine, tripping as it went onto the heating cycle. Drum bearings had collapsed, allowing the drum to land on the element underneath; element looked OK on a continuity test, IR test proved it out. I've just had fun tracing a fault with fibre optic sensors on a CNC machine; the machine builder's techs loaded up a parts cannon (new sensors, new receiver, new amplifier) at £3500....I've just traced it to a loose wire at the main I/O module.
Forgot to add that you will soon need a new fan blade too as original has expanded too, gets wedged on element and burns motor out...if customer hears scraping during cooking thats the 2nd part of the problem.
Excellent Video. The only improvement is to include a wiring diagram explaining what is going on for newbies. I did a sketch to get my head around it. Thank you very much.
Your fault finding skills are brill Jordan.
Well done buddy! A tough case to crack but in the end it was no match for Detective Jordan!! 🕵️♂️ 👍🏻
This is why I'm glad Denmark is using 2 pole breakers so the neutral is also open when the breaker is off. But good job finding the fault!
you will never gain a large bucket full of odd screws and strange things discovering the mystical last screw location lol ... nice video thanks for sharing
Hi, Wood screws in the cooker socket? Think whoever fitted the consumer unit could have made a better job fitting it, made a right pigs ear of the cove
I've changed loads of those dam cooker elements so many I've now got a spare oven for my rental properties so I can get my tennants up and running quicker then repair the spare oven in my own time
Good idea!
Hats off to you for opening the oven. Personally, I never open an appliance and attempt to repair it (anymore). You end up taking ownership of the appliance regarding all future faults especially if you provide the replacement parts, not to mentioned warranty issues. I replaced an element in an oven which worked fine then 6 months later the display stopped working. “Remember the oven you fixed? Well its stopped working” the customer placed the responsibility firmly with me even though it was a completely different fault. I now leave the decision to repair or replace with the customer. You know the old saying “No good deed goes unpunished “
That screw left over when it’s all “back together” is called a “Pimlico”. Douglas Adams and John Lloyd produced a little black book in the 1980s called ‘The meaning of Liff’. Contains loads more place names used to describe things in life that don’t have a word for them! Good laugh if you can find a copy. Nice fault finding btw.
Ah, when I repaired our tumble dryer in the 80s (new belt), i even put screws in holes that didn't have them in before (drilled but never molested with a self tapper)... still had an aerosol cap full of Pimlicos! thumbs up for another Douglas Adams fan
A job is not complete unless there's something left over.
Good job...wondering on that circuit arrangement though, looked like a plug in type oven looking at the flex from the connection plate on a 32amp supply with the hob ? maybe the original installer shouldve introduced an accessible single socket on the load cable from the cooker switch to fuse it down?
Fixed-resitive load so overload protection can be omitted. As long as the breaker protects the cable under fault-condition (Ib
What voltage did you have the tester set too? Would it not damage any circuits testing across neutral an earth bars with loads connected?
I've had a couple of neutral to earth fault & it stopped the rcd functioning correctly , i can only assume that the earth was at the potential as neutral. I.e. the test buttin on the rcd didnt do anything, i swapped it for a new one.. same problem, swapped it for another one, same issue !!! Turned out to be a neutral to earth fault on the 6mm feeding the hob. Odd though that using the hob didn't always trip the rcd but using any other appliance on the ring circuit did trip it. Its the 2nd time I've had a fault that blinded the rcd.
the cooker control unit is a double pole switch . so both line and neutral are disconnected when in the off position
Any circuit on that RCD that has a N-E short, dead short or not can be affected by any of the other circuits on that rcd. So this narrowing down method of flicking breakers on is completely useless. If the fault was on the sockets an the oven had load the rcd would trip. If the fault was on lights an the oven had load the rcd would trip, if the sockets had load an the lights was at fault guess what the rcd would trip. All the neutrals at the bars are linked once one shorts to earth there will be a imbalance an the rcd will trip. Correct way is to leave the rcd off and remove the neutrals one at a time testing to earth bar an the neutral bar to earth bar before u put it back as there may also be more then 1 fault. Be careful with tncs systems as without removing main earth u could be chasing ur tail. An fault finding should also be done dead.
Very helpful. Thanks.
Well done sir.
Main oven heating element would be my first guess, as its used most often and not fully supported to prevent flexing.
I had a similar manufacturer issue with a brand new hob ,connected it up switched it on and BANG. The live connection was touching the metal casing . The angled spade connector was on the wrong way round . 😮
Got called out by a neighbour at 17:00 on Sunday with the ground floor ring tripping the CB. The Metrel MFT3152 just came up with a comment that Z < 50Kohm, load connected. Do I want to continue to test? Eventually found 3 faults, the cooker hood, the lighting under the wall units and the socket to the dishwasher was wringing wet due to a leak from the U bend on the sink. Very disconcerting to split the ring and find that there was still a fault on both sides. Real bugger to trace back with a mix of colours as well. I assume that the basic nusiance tripping they had been having for months was the lights and cooker hood and then the leak on the socket was the thing that tipped it right over the edge. Amazing that people just continue to reset CB's even though they trip on a regular basis. I'm a bit of a one stop shop so I sorted the U bend today and will be repairing the appliances etc later in the week.
I have specialised in fixing domestic appliances for the last 37yrs this looks like a cheap Beko or Lamona oven, 1800w element most of these ovens come with no cable and people wire them up the wrong way on the terminal block or use to thicker cable and try to squeeze it in that small space, i was thinking fan element straightaway dont buy the cheep elements they dont last to long always get the more expensive ones also fan motors are crap and run slow which shortens the life of element so a drop of oil on the bearings would help it spin at the correct speed.
I dont have test/exp but 28years. I had one fault where they could not get lights on, other sparks could not find fault. I asked has there been any work done. New room stat. So I checked that and neutral wire not connected..now works fine.
I always end up with a pocketful of screws 😂
Ha! Aside from that criminally miswired oven, your video reminds me of a similar fault finding exercise I recently did on my oven: fault? The SEALED 3-pin plug to the oven was causing an earth leakage fault!
They are often wired that way, if no rcd the oven will come on flat out with no control.
Helo there how come you have a 32a breaker feeding what looks like 2.5 3 core flex going into the cooker? regards Michael.
But I do electrical work here in the US we don't quite running to that type problem with ovens and burnt-out elements but I have my share of burnt-out elements in ovens causing weird things every now and then including the lovely Bang LOL
Thanks Jordan
You’re very welcome!
Great to watch Jordan.
Thnks
Can u please make 1video on your megger.what couplet be the less resistance for good conductor.which is the bad resistance. Plz make complete video.
I trust you informed the manufacturer of this fault as I would suspect it will be on many others if their inspection is that bad.
E spares is my go to place for spare parts for most things. Good point about the Tesla boot lid letting all the snow into the boot. Teslas answer would probably sell an electric brush to brush the snow off first.
No that's a future it's a self washing boot keeps it extra clean. I made a few Choice comments on the other video about this subject. It is really bad design. Their answer is probably to melt all the snow off first. Over and Snow Country where I used to live it is common and legally required practice to clean all snow off your vehicle because chunks of ice can fly off and break windows there's also the blinding snow effect.
I'm fitting a new fan element to my sister in laws Electolux oven. Found that I could get the genuine parts direct from the Electrolux website for the same price as E Spares. So genuine parts it is.
Teslas solution is "Move to California"
@@nopy99 or........... Texas
Fan oven elements are notorious for going down to earth. Nearly always my first stop on a fault on a oven.
I had a similar problem with an oven element that had failed and after fitting a replacing element the RCD was still tripping ??? I then got another element from the same supplier and it was still tripping the RCD. 😞 I then contacted the supplier and they told me to run the oven with on a non RCD supply in order to dry out the element to remove any leakage. Next time I think I will pay a bit more and get a better quality element !
Heating elements are the first place I look for a CPC fault especially immersion heaters.
Having had a similar element fail, you can pull the element into the oven then disconnect the feeds, which means you can connect the new element and push it back into place without taking the oven out of its unit. With that split I expect it would be fine in regular use, but leaving it cold for a few days will have given the mineral insulation a chance to absorb water and lower the resistance.
@Ellis The DJ Some you can do from the back, some from the front, but you normally need to take the cooker out to test it unless its easier to test from the switch.
Well done m8
Thought you said it was the CHeating cct that was tripping? (@1:13) - so why then are you then checking the cooker cct for IR ??
I recently identified an RCD trip on our 10 liter under-kitchen-counter hot water heater. I suppose technically I might have been able to replace the element but these things just have a finite lifespan and if you’re *lucky* it’s RCD trips and if unlucky it just starts leaking and destroying your kitchen. So it was definitely just time for a replacement. (Also, because of pressurization reasons. I’m not even sure the elements in those are replaceable at all)
Good man. Not many electricians nowadays would go that far to help a customer. Nice to see. Thank you for showing that awkward fault diagnostic.
Excellent troubleshooting... Appliance repairman as well. Wow good job! 👍👍👍 Deserve a pint. 🍺
Could you not turn on all mcbs and then try the oven circuit without the oven turned on and then try it with the oven on. That would trip the RCD and identifying the problem is the element without having to strip the oven down.
Mr Artisan can u pls tell me which meter u use for testing
Did anyone miss fault mentioned on central heating then started working on cooker circuit 🤔🤔🧐
First thing I noticed.
Yeah he made a mistake, probably due to the cooker being wired up incorrectly internally or misspoke
I am a primary industrial electrician and do some residential as well in the US. Find your videos interesting, the differences are striking. FYI The US is not 120 but is 120/240, 240 between the 2 hot wires and 120 to neutral.
Interesting. EU/UK is three-phase three/four-wire depending on whether a neutral is required. We have 400Vac between lines (L1,L2,L3) and 230Vac to phase (Line-N), so 400/230. Almost all houses are supplied with 230v single-phase where as commericial/industrial properties are supplied with 3PH 400v 3W/4W.
Our neutrals are bonded to ground (earth) at the service are yours? What is the amperage on most residential circuits ours are most common 120 vac 15 or 20 for lights, and receptacles, and up to 60 amps 240 for large loads. We just moved. Where we left metal electrical conduit was required even in single family homes, here they use a plastic sheathed cable containing 2 or 3 conductors and a ground wire. I like conduit better
I had the same thing with my neighbours oven, but the life/neutral was connected correctly, so the fault was clearly the oven element
Thanks good v log
Use to work for b@q fitting kitchens almost every oven had issues mainly due to poor assembly or shaken to bits during transport
Hey Jordan am just curious what is the voltage for Insulation resistance you have used for testing the oven components?
250
Same thing happened to me. Random tripping of power over several weeks. Many tests by two different electricians but they couldn’t find the fault. Sometimes the boiler starting would seem to trip it but not always. Had the plumber and his electrician out but all tested to be fine. Waiting 15 minutes or so after it had tripped and the power could be turned on again (not always first time but generally it worked) and would seem ok for two or three days. Turned out to be the upper oven element only failing when it got to a certain temperature so tricky to find as it didn’t fail every time.
Yeah that is a tricky one
Seen same on washing mc but would of isolated before insulation check
I would like to become an electritian.which course would you recommend me????
Testing IR between earth and N. with the main switch on can give you incorrect readings on TNC-s
Hi, i recently dropped out of my third year in university. I am now hoping to become an electrician. Will me dropping out effect my chances of getting an apprenticeship and becoming an electrician?
Or the cooker has been repaired previously by someone else....
Just magical
Quick question. How did you work out the wiring was put in reverse on the oven?
M H Fault shows in the off position on because it's been wired live to neutral and neutral to live (reversed the polarity on the element).The element has blown but has grounded itself to earth with neutral and not live and normally would trip when you turn the oven on. It tripped when it was off though and that's what caused the confusion and the need to fault find.
I did a trip check on a mates wiring, turned out to be his oven, opened back cover as i was expecting the same element leakage, but it was not, it was a dead mouse stuck btween live terminal on the top and metal case, luckily he called me more or less when it happened and the mouse was still fresh not smelling aweful.
what value is good for insulated test
You went the long way around cooker isolator should be double pole switching that off before testing RCD circuit would have shown no fault on panel or wiring. Then disconnect oven, switch on everything working so fault in the oven. Always disconnect or unplug all external devices before testing installation.