Can UK Electricians Learn from Italian Electrics?
Can UK Electricians Learn from Italian Electrics?
Join me on holiday in Sicily as I check out the wiring in my Italian Apartment.
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They are showing you Babylon. Thats what this is. Ba Fongu. Lol.
Man, below I've written a long post with some Italian code for electrical stuff... It ended up as a huge post... sorry.
Artisan Electrics I see your circuit breaker has no rcd/b the small electrical currents
I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, but that jingle is _incredibly_ loud compared to the rest of the video. I had my finger hovering on Mute pretty much the entire time.
Hey Jordan, good vid, but the music is way louder than speech in this one.
Sorry
I’ve got my headphones on I never reached for the volume button so fast
It probably went louder than the bleep bleep can go :p
@@artisanelectrics THAT'S OK
I can confirm. The music volume was super annoying.
I'm not a certified electician but I install stuff in my home tring to follow the code as possible (old building). No that is a old install stuff. And yes, that 4kw is quite good for italy. Generally contracts are 3kW. You can get 4.5kw but it a lot more expensive. Secondary holiday houses can have 1.5kw contracts. That apartment have an old circuit schema and is "out of code for a lot of years".... or it is a cheap installation. The code now is quite more restrictive... generally new installations are more like the one you have seen in France. With less MCB due to the fact that we have less power and we could create less circuits. The basement "circuit breaker" is the metering device, it should had both RCD and MCB on another box but i didnt have seen it... quite bad. The main metering device have ONLY a isolator, it have an auxiliary switch, power is managed by the internal MCU that can kill the power. It might have some MCB functionality but by code you have to think of it only as an isolator. What you have seen is the old stuff. And is even worse on some places. Now with some language barrier I try to explain how electrical stuff is generally made to provide an easy overview: POwer grid is generally TT, so houses have phaes and netrral from the distribution trasformer. PE is provided locally. Neutral is grounded at the distribution trasformer. Cables are copper multi strand one conductor, colors are: BLUE - Neutral BROWN, BLACK, GRAY, for PHASE. On single phase system you can choose. On 3-Phase system: L1(R), is black. L2(S), is gray. L3(T) is brown. Ground(PE) is GREEN/YELLOW. RED, ORANGE,VIOLET, WHITE,PINK (with some exceptions) can be used to differentiate the smaller circuits and are general purpose BUT netutral is always BLUE. Other colors can be used but only if you cannot mix them up. Most common used cables are: 1.5mm2 for lights circuits, 2.5mm2 for plug circuits, or for power lines from the distribution panel to the room distribution boxes of the light circuit. 4mm2 for power likes from the distribution panel to the room distribution boxes of the plug circuit 6mm2 for the main power lines from metering device. (but this depends on distance, cable type, etc.) Some houses expecially in older parts of Rome have 220/240V with 2 phase system 110V each, back in time we had "motive power" with 2phases and lights were 110V. Nowdays we have 220/240V singla phase for home, some elevators and heating system requite 380/400V 3 phase. Mains frequency is 50Hz. On thoose system you can use blue for the second phase due to the fact that one day the power grid could be upgraded. What I suggest is to put a big label near the main disconnect switch saing that N is actually a second phase. Code CEI 64-8 is one of the main code rules. House electrical system have 3 levels: 1- Basic, Minimun level, essential systems ONLY like sockets and lights. Most common on Italy, mainly only 2 circuits. (Thoose are common due to old intallations I hate thoose, on my old home I have an even worse electical with only one circuit) 2 - Standard, More protection devices, multiple circuit. 3 - Domotic, It is like level 2 but can also have domitc stuff in it. Most common level 3 is a system with automatic load diconnects to prevent the 2kw metering device to go off. On lvl 3 you must intall SPDs and LVL1/2 you have to analyze the risk and than choose what to do. After the metering device you must have a main disconnect, this must be placed at a maximun fixed distance and the type (isolator or MCB) changes if the meter is near or far. This code is a bit unknow to me, the rule have some different cases. But a main disconnet after the metering device is mandatory. Now if the aparment ditribution box is "far" the main switch must be a MCB C type, the trip current depends of the project. The "size" of a electrical system can be 3kw or 6kw. If 3kw the main breaker is 25A, and 32A for the 6kw. The actual meter power/contract and the sustem sizing are not correlated, only the number of lights , sockets appliances are used for the dimensioning of the system. In the flat distribution box generally there is a main panel switch that can be: a RCBO, a RCD, a MCB, or a simple isolator( this depends on the level of the system the distance of the metering device etc) From that you can divide the circuit into one or more secondary circuit, genrally each secondary circuit is protected by a RCD. RCDs are 25A 30mA ones. They can be AC class but I generaly A class ones are used on new installs. Each secondary circuit can be divided into a third circuit, each one is protected by a MCB. C10 - are used for lights circuits C16 - are used for sockets. Sockets used are of type C, F, L. L type have 2 variants 10A and 16A. L type is grounded. The L type socket, 10A variant, have the same spacing of type C so it is compatible with type C plugs. Type C is only used on double insulated devices. Our sockets have shutter and plugs have insulated prongs (not the earth). We have special sockets that can accept all thoose types of plugs. switches, plugs, light indicators are called "fruits" and are installed into frames. Frames have different shapes and form but have all the same wall mount style. Frames are mounted to 50X boxes where the X is the noumber of fruts the frame can accept. Most common box is 503. Those boxes are not intended as junction boxes. Thoose boxes are made out of plastic. Wires are installed into flexible conduits, color of the coduits have different meaning: BLACK: power. GREEN: phone system, data and TV BROWN: Alarm system VIOLET: AUDIO, lot of people uses this for low voltage domotic condrol wiring CYAN: BELL and/or video intercomm. 50X boxes can be placed where the client want them but: sockets must be more than 17.5cm from the floor. Switches must be at 90cm from the floor. On bedrooms the switches near the bad must be between 70cm and 80cm. Bells and pull switches for shower and bathroom bust be installed above 225cm. This is due to the zones that a bathroom can have: Zone 0: It get wet nothing here. (bathtub or inside the shower) Only counduits can be buried in the wall at a depth more than 5cm or fixed stuff like a light fixture (no comand or control stuff here only SELV stuff). Zone 1: is around zone 0 follow the same rule of zone 1. Zone 2: here you can install electric heaters and ligths without a special RCBO. Appliances must be Class I or II. Zone 3: You can mostly install what you want you should put some IPX rating stuff if can get wet due to moisture. This is really hard and a better opinion on this from a professional is required. I might have done some mistakes. Now another important rule is: that a plug fruit can be feeded only: from another plug in the same 50X box or from a wire coming from a junction box. A special case is that a 50X box can be also supplied from another single 50X box if there are only 2 in the chain. Up to two boxes in cascade. So no ring circuits. If those are 507 boxes they can have 7 plugs on each box so up to 14plugs in the same brach. The same rule apply on 503 for a total of 6 plugs connested to the same brach. Lets take this house as an example: 2 floor with garden lights, automatic gate opener, irrigation system. Central HVAC for cooling. Heating and hot whater is done with GAS, power hungly electric appliances are: washing machine, oven, and microwave. The meter is generally outside in this case, and the main switch is an MCB C32A. 4500kA but seems that new code require a 6000kA short circuit interrupt current. From there the secondary circutis could be: 1)ground floor 2)first floor 3)garden 4)heating and cooling 5)kitchen Now generally we install C25A 0.30mA RCBO on each one of thoose. If we use a RCD we must protect it so a pair MCB+RCD must be installed for each secondary circuit. Now lets take the ground floor: Ground floor have a MCB for: - C6 intercomm and doorbell - C6 Automatic gate - C10 for lights - C16 for plugs Now lets take the garden: - C10 for lights - C16 for outside plugs - C16 for the outside irrigation system this might have a local panel for more protection/sub circuit. Now lets take the kitchen: - C16 for the Oven - C16 for the Microwave - C10 for the fridge - C16 for misc stuff - C16 for the plane plugs This is an ideal case, cost common is: - C16 for plugs - C16 for all havy duty appliances (oven and microwave) - C10 for the fridge Some worst cases just have a RCBO C16 for the whole kitchen. Now lets take the first floor: - C10 for lights - C16 for plugs Now lets take the heating and cooling: On main distribution panel we could have a C20 only and a localized sub panel with: C16 - for the HVAC C10 - for the GAS boiler C10 - for each additional heating water circulating pums Open for Questions :)
Ti prego scrivilo in italiano 😂
@@albertolaurella9168 Ci ho messo tutta la pausa pranzo per scriverlo in inglese. Oggi invece mangio :P
Non cosi differente dalla Francia ma qui i cavi sono single core in rame e le potenze sono ben superiori.
@@kimexint so I due sistemi sono simili. Quindi mi confermi che in Francia si usano cavi rigidi.
Aiuto, manco una pagina Wikipedia 😂
That unmistakable sound of a Brit with flip flops on tiles 😂 enjoy the holiday man, you’ve earned it 💪🏻
an electrician on holidays has power problems with his rental. I’d say that’s fate. Better than being an aeronautical engineer on holidays, I suppose.
Good one!
oh no!
Yeah I can imagine that after that you take your simulator hours much more serious if you survived it :-D
English man living in Italy. When we first moved over electrics kept tripping. Electrician came out said all good. After about three visits we found out we only had a 3Kw supply. Increased supply to 10kw which everyone one thought was extremely extravagant but now I can run my air conditioning, make tea and cook dinner.
Whats the extra cost of 3 vs 10 kw?
Exactly ... totally extravagant. Nobody needs this :-D . No wonder that it will never change. I feel so crazy extravagant now with my 3x25A countryside supply. And I thought it is *cking expensive because I have to pay 25e each month for it. My parents in Germany have 3x63A and I just looked it up. It doesnt matter what the supply is. Montly payment is fixed and much lower than mine. (city) Obviously country side has the unfortunate truth that they might need to come and repair cables more often when falling trees cut them
Great video, lovely place. Enjoy your holiday Jordan, you've earned it.
Thanks! I’m back now this was a couple of weeks ago! But it was great!
Was working in France, Industrial machine, there was a small tunnel for the cable run to the control cabinets, I was tasked with pulling the cables through the tunnel, by crawling through pulling cables behind, there was over 100 cables to pull through, @120M run. The control cabinet was behind the main switch room. As I went under the switch room my hair stood up, looking up there was a set o,f very old, open switch gear, 11KVA. The French engineer spoke very good English, he understood basic anglo Saxon even better after that. Completely open switch gear, not even any guarding, just a very small sign saying, in French, danger of death. We used contractors after that, we refused to get involved and the site had to do that task, took days to pull in all of the cables. Adrenalin is most definitely brown. I was hot and sweaty, could so easily have been a lump of carbon.
@RichJW A corrugator, was the wet end, hence such a long cable run
I live in Italy and most houses have 3kw but domestic contracts can go up to 10kw. The contactor in the main meter MCB is for the electric company to disconnect your power if you don't pay or if you're consuming too much power.
He he my missus used to give me a bollocking where ever we went on holiday for looking at the electrics, when I was a teenager went to Spain ,went for a swim in the pool,went up to my room and pressed the lift button ,got the biggest belt ever ,
7:50, these 6mm cables are not feeding the meters, but the loads! I’m Italian electrician. 😉 the feed from the street is on the back of them! Anyway this building is very far away from our strict rules and our standard on electrical systems!!
Shower of shite...
The feed from before the meter is never exposed to the consumer. It would allow people to bypass the meter and steal power. It is the same in all countries ;)
@@movax20h In Russia we sometimes have meters mounted inside our flats with exposed wires from main breakers going right in. Even if they are mounted outside they almost always have exposed wiring in communal electrical box which often looks like a rat nest near-impossible to make sense of in older houses... Of course, stealing electricity is like a national sport here, so...
@@jwhite5008 😂
@@Br34k3 Not even joking. Here are a few examples I googled just now: cs13.pikabu.ru/post_img/big/2019/04/18/11/1555614596125044881.jpg 18podyezdov.ru/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Zamena-elektroshhita-v-podezde_001-1024x575.jpeg cs8.pikabu.ru/post_img/big/2017/07/13/5/1499930181184284406.jpg These are pretty tame, I've personally seen much worse, with uninsulated unfused ~380V mains (i.e. instant death), burn damage, literal knots of caked together wires I tried and failed to trace, but still live, in center of a megalopolis.
Most flats usually have few circuits, a 16A one for sockets and a 6A for lights, and maybe a separate 16A circuit for kitchen or AC. Usually there is a single RCD and then MCBs for the circuits, but MCBs are double pole in a single module like the one you saw (so if the RCD trips for a fault between neutral and earth you can isolate easily the circuit). Yes the standard contract is 3.3kW maximum. You are allowed to use more power for a short amount of time, there is a curve implemented in the software of the meter. And the meter is purely software, in the sense that if you request an increase of power they simply send out an update to the meter without any intervention (if there is available capacity of course). Why we have so little power? Ask whoever voted against nuclear power... not having a limit would mean you would have peek powers that will potentially trip the entire grid (like it happened in 2003). Of course increasing the power limit would mean paying an higher fixed rate every month (you have a fixed amount that you pay even if you consume zero and then you pay per kW/h) The meters are usually not installed inside the single flats. By new regulations they must be in a place accessible by a public street, for the reason that if they are installed inside a private property the electricity company have to ask permission to enter it for maintenance and to make more difficult to connect to the network illegally. That said it's annoying since if the meter trips you have to go outside in the dark to reset it, and it's not pleasant in the winter. You have to be careful turning on things at the same time, e.g. an hair dryer with the washing machine on.
Interesting! What would be a standard rate for a 3.3kW supply? Never heard of this type of contract.
@@michael-gary-scott Good question, and the answer is that I don't know. Reading an electricity bill is so complicated (the price is divided in dozen of entries, including even the TV license) that it's difficult to say exactly how much you pay for 1kW/h of electricity. I don't even care, nowadays you can choose to be with the public operator, where the rate is chosen by the government, or to go in the "free market", where you make a contract with a private electricity provider. It's like years that they say that all we will be forced to go with the private providers but it's even years that this deadline is moved forward in the future. I also think that the free market for the electricity doesn't make sense and at the end you will end up paying more, if you don't continue to change provider like you do with phone companies, but that means that you have to waste time doing so (while nowadays as I said I don't even care how much I pay, don't even read the bills, they get paid automatically by my bank).
In Croatia, standard supply is 7.6 kW single phase or 9 kW three-phase, and if you want more power you have to pay about 260 euros per kW (one time payment), but really, unless you don't havr workshop or a farm, there is no need for three phase supply or more than 7.6 kW supply, we don't have many "power hungry" stuff. Heating and hot water is provided by gas fired boilers or wood burning furnaces in countryside
Sadly in this case, the curve is very limited by your MCB/RCD in your room, being an A curve. We had to use D curve ones for a couple of our woodworking shops; and that still wasn't enough! :p
In the UK the standard supply is 63A, (15kW) even for a flat. Usually 80A (19kW) or 100A (24kW) for a house. There are still a few very old supplies that are 40A, but not many of them left. Most houses and flats in the UK have electric showers (8.4kW - 10.8kW) so we do actually need a fairly heavy supply cable and fuse to go with it.
Some of the old buildings in the UK are shocking, so would be really interested to see newer stuff, to see if it lives up to the poor reputation.
An Airbnb apartment in Sicily is probably not indicative of the Italian electrical standards.
But a good sign that the UK is not as bad as what most would have you believe.
It's usually exactly like this in old buildings everywhere I have seen. A few notes: - Illuminazione is probably but not necessarily also wired to the smaller sockets. Italy used to have two different voltages and circuits, one for electric motors and one for lighting. Hence two different kinds of sockets in old buildings. - the meters are now pretty much standardized across the country. I'm not 100% sure but I believe the contactor/relay is there to turn off the power remotely.
Why? The apartment isn't built as an Airbnb - it was a home for someone. The rest of the apartments are homes. Ergo, it's exactly indicative.
@@grahamek86 not only is it fair to say it's indicative, but it's also a fairly modern install. Alarm bells everywhere. If the electrics were done in the 60's you could understand it.
@@grahamek86 It's not the "Airbnb" part, it's the "Sicily" part: you don't give running water for granted here.
Looks good to me wait till you see some of the Thai wiring ..I have seen . it just shows how we in the Uk take our power for granted when you see the restraints put on some overseas installations. I have been hotels in India where you only have ac on at various times of the day as it is not your turn to use the power as it has to be shared around ....
Man: talks normal Music: ima rek these headphone users
what?!
Man, that comment made me chuckle. I had earphones on too!! Ouch.
jesus christ that music was loud at the start!!!
The MCB for the lift is actually quite nice. If the unpopular mother-in-law arrives, just flip the breaker when she's in the lift...
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Awesome comment 😂
The lift music is quite loud though (kidding!)
Hahahaha 😂😂
Even 4kW for a residential property is tiny. American NEC requirements are minimum 60A service (14.4kVA) for an inhabited structure, but 200A (48kVA) is the norm for most single family houses. Uninhabited structures can get away with as little as a 30A service (3.6kVA if 120V 2 wire; 7.2kVA if 120V/240V 3 wire).
Re.differences in electrics between countries, one of the first things I notice in a new country is the pylons and pole infrastructure
Or in places like Australia, it varies state to state! In Queensland and NSW most distribution poles are wood, with a few concrete ones. Went to Darwin in the NT and they're all made from steel C channel welded together.
Have you ever been to Tokyo? It's insane in some areas
If you go to the Netherlands, you'll find everything is underground. And I mean everything (except the highest voltages, even 150 kV can run runderground here).
Just one thing: the barely hearable music needs more volume and a warning to wear headphones.
That funny kind of trunking 🤣🤣 that's panel trunking I tend to use it on my 3phase DB's when RCBOs are used great way to hide the flying leads and makes a really neat install
Indeed, neat idea. :)
Yep, perfectly normal open slotted panel trunking widely used in industrial switch tripping panels throughout the UK and elsewhere. I guess Jordan has not seen the inside a lot of enclosed industrial systems in his career if he thinks trunking is peculiar.
From a Dutch perspective it's interesting to read about these kinds of contracts they have in Southern Europe. Having said that, I live in an old apartment that is protected by only two 16 A breakers, on a 25 A main fuse, so I know when to use what and when not to. And yes, I have airconditioning too. I never had a breaker trip because of an overload. Here, the difference in pricing has to do with wether you have a single phase or three phase supply.
Hi i'm from Italy and every single house has 3 KW normally That lift and that building are very old nowadays we don't do like that living the breikers were everyone can access and turn it off For the wiring of the appartament we stil do like that an it' absolutely correct of course that relay was there in order to prevent to lay the air-conditioning on while you are out normally we don't do that I hope that my English in not to bad 😅
I know this is a bit old but if anyone is still reading the comments, just wanted to add that I have seen a lot worse! In the house I bought in Tuscany, the supply to the basement, where the washing machine was located was via something that looked like a bell wire, and this also serviced all of the lighting and other sockets on that floor. The bell wire served to heat the house..... We tripped the 3.3 Kw smart meter by turning on the oven and plugging in an electric kettle. It took us a trip to a nearby bar to find out that it was not a power cut. I now had it rewired, and still only increased to 6.6 Kw which we have tripped by leaving on the heat pump to the pool at the same time as using the one small air conditioning. unit.
In Georgia USA, we have a small 2 bedroom mountain cottage way back in the forest, 18Kw supply.
In italy 3kw is the standard in every house,if you want more you have to change your type of contract.The electronic meter is controlled by the contractor so if you don't pay the bill the integrated mcb will switch off, same if you pass the 15-20% of the 3kw.
Hello, Italian here. 3KW is pretty standard in here, but usually it's not a problem in day-to-day life, I actually just thought that it was standard all over the world. Just mind to not turn on the oven and the washing machine together and you're good to go. The main breakers (downstairs) are also standard, the wiring is not though. Usually the breakers are protected by a lock in a small housing, and the wiring is just not as dangerous as they have there. Also, it's not standard to have only one breaker for the lights and one for the sockets, as an example I have in my house a similar configuration but for each room, so in total about 8 breakers plus the main one for the house.
Back before smart meters you'd have a 15 amp RCBO built into the meter base. And yes, Italians did trip that from time to time, like la mamma baking in the electric oven (Northern Italy) and someone taking a shower causing the electric water heater to power on, plunging the entire 3BR flat into darkness. I had a bit of a chuckle when I stumbled out of my bedroom and saw them take a picture off the wall in the hallway to get to the meter :-D I'd guess the house was about the same age as this one but the meters were in each flat. Most electricity suppliers in Europe started to insist on having meters located outside the actual flats after WWII and nowadays like to have them all in one room. I'm fairly sure I've seen similar setups in London with a bank of meters somewhere in the basement and old pyro or SWA running up into each unit. I suppose it was both a matter of convenience for meter readers and a way of making power theft a bit more difficult. It's easier to tap into unmetered wires in the quiet of your own home than in the stairway of a busy block of flats!
He actually said, "The electrics in my apartment are pretty shocking."
LOL
Charming little place full of character. My favourite out of the way type of place in Italy.
Our elderly home has its main electricity branch from the street shared with the neighbours. So in case the main breaker goes off, that one is at the neighbours cellar. So we also couldn't switch on multiple mundane things at once. So we keep plugging in either the washing machine, or the microwave, or the small oven, or a vaccuum cleaner. Can you imagine in Amsterdam up untill 2003 some homes had a 3 phase where every phase was 133 Volts and between the phases 230 Volts. US people can see that in Europe we used to have and in some places still also have lower than 230 Volt in places. Where i live now, there is city heating and no gas, so cooking with electricity, so 40 Amp Earth leak breaker for all and the rest 16 Amp breakers and two 16 Amp breakers bridged. Those are for cooking. In this case not 3 phase but 2x230 via Perilex plug.
In italy the base montly price depends on maximal amps. so the MCB included in the power meters are not to safe the power meter and cables, they are to force max amps as they are in contract. if you upgrade your contract, they will be replaced with larger ones. As a result customers have a much less spiky power usage and the power distribution networks can be build smaller.
I've seen other videos of building with flexi-conduit installed everywhere. In that case first fix was all continuous runs of flexi-conduit, one for each circuit with no wires, from an accessory box to the consumer unit location (there were literally dozens of tubes coming from the ceiling at the consumer unit). Second fix involved pushing/pulling the cables for each circuit into the flexi-conduit (cable lubricant was essential). Some were just pushed in, others a plastic bag on a cord was sucked through with a vacuum and the cord used to pull the cable in. I guess a rewire would be pulling new cable in with the existing cable...
I recall them using double insulated cable though.
In Sweden at least, all in-wall wiring is done with flexi-conduit. ( You can do it with cables, but then ALL must be with cables.) As a Swede, I'm 'chocked' when someone installs cable in walls. Yes, rewiring can be done without damaging the walls. And you can add a wire or two afterwards.
You should check how they do it in Montenegro where you are not limited like in Europe itself. You can pull as much as electric meter can pass and thats about 60amps. Basically you have your electric meter and main fuses for it in front of the house or electric pole at about 1.6m height facing road so that its easy to work with and easy to read for electricians without entering private property. Every house has 3 phases/lines, and usually one or two 3 phase sockets (new ones dont have them but you bring 5x2.5mm cooper to the kitchen inside 7m box just in case and so that all three sockets have different fuse, plus you lead other stuff in kitchen from there). They use 3x1.5mm PPY cooper cable for lights and 3x2.5 PPY for all sockets, heaters and other things (unless its they are more powerful in that case its 5x4mm or 5x6mm). Standard cable from electric meter to RCD inside fuses box that's inside house is at least 5x6mm, but usually its 5x10 or 5x16 copper cable (for bigger houses). RCD is usually rated for 40amps and rule of the thumb is 6-10amp for lights, and 16 amps for sockets. By the way, usually every room has its own fuse for lights, and they are devided from sockets, so if you trip sockets fuse, you still have lights in that room. And if you have problem with lights in one room, other rooms are not affected. While its not a standard, its like unwritten rule, not to have more then 3, max 5 sockets on a single line/fuse. That 3 to 5 depends on the use and where they are. Also for gardens, most electricians dont use ground so that it does not trip RCD in rain (and i hate them for it), but some are using separate RCD for garden and other outdoor stuff.
flexicon -Bundy Electrical international must have done the install! :)
😂
Yep, Bundy just loves Flexicon😄😁😅
Hi, guys, I am from New Zealand and I live in the country my home has 3p 400v 63amp per phase with solar 5kw system there is about 20 mcb,s /rcd,s for the house a bit different for your AIRBB. We pay for each KWH we use except for solar which we can sell back if we do not use it.
What I like about on the continent is the double pole breakers and use of radials. Why on earth are we still using rings for? Fair enough for the kitchen. 2 16 amp radials and 32 amp ring for the kitchen. Or even 32 amp radial on 4mm. Just unessaserry and a pain to fault find.
what a way to spend you holiday! my house is kind of wired that way too! from the diningroom to the front bedroon, its on 1 breaker, and the kitchen and master bedroom is on another breaker.... kind of frustrating when you have to replace en outlet and you have to kill almost the whole house!
Propably it's an auxiliary switch for the neutral, in a TT-system the neutral can have a potential that differs from the earth potential. So it's necessary there to also switch the neutral off, and in several countries the local regulations demand for this. Like a german installation of the 1950s...three fuses for the whole house: -1x16A Diazed fuse for the kitchen cooker -1x10A Diazed fuse for outlets and lighting of the ground floor and cellar 1x10A Diazed fuse for outlets and lighting of the 1st floor The Diazed fuses were DII and gG/gL characteristic. And all single wires in conduits. If the wire wasn't long enough, twist them together and put insulating tape arround it...no one will ever know. And back then it was some sticky tape, it was still sticky 60 years later. The modern stuff sometimes is no longer sticky after a few years. It was a textile based, resin-impregnated tape. At least they used two colours, black for the line and red for the PEN. Like the old colours were back then. And somtimes not. In my bathroom was black and a violet wire for the lighting....back then they used what they had at hand. I ripped out almost everything, sometimes I used the old conduits when they were ok.
Electricity in Italy is taxed at two different rates depending on whether it's for lighting ("luce") or general purpose ("generale"), with the latter being a luxury and taxed at a higher rate than the former. Homes had two meters and two sets of circuits. You may have come across two sizes of socket ("presse") in Italy: the small ones are max 10A and would have been on the luce circuits, and the big ones are 16A and would have been on the generale circuits. All radials, of course. Consumer units in older homes usually reflect this, with a 10A MCB for luce and a 16A for generale. At some point in the early 90s, it was noted that this was bonkers, and it was time consuming reading two sets of meters, so ENEL (the national operator at the time) decided to replace everyone's luce and generale meters with a single smart meter that would add the first 2,300W to the luce register and everything else to the generale register, thereby dispensing with the need for two separate sets of circuits. The smart meters are pretty cute. They have built-in isolaters in the form of an MCB and communicate over the same wiring used to deliver the power (power line communications). The MCB is also used to disconnect the supply if the maximum power is exceeded, operated by a little motor and lever inside the meter. The maximum power is one of the terms of the contract with ENEL. Contracts with higher maximum powers have a higher standing charge, which is why a lot of people only have 3,600W contracts, because those are the cheapest. 3,600W is fine, provided that you are mindful about how many high-power appliances you have on at the same time. It also benefits ENEL because they don't have to over-specify the distribution network on the off chance that all of their customers decide to simultaneously draw 100A. If you have PV solar and a battery, 3,600W is all you need because the system will draw from the battery to satisfy peak loads in excess of 3,600W. One of my favourite features of Italian wiring is that the circuits are usually singles run in flexible conduit, so replacing cores or pulling in new ones is a piece of cake. The modern wiring accessories are usually modular as well, with a wide variety of accessories such as Schuko and UK sockets, switches, PIRs, pull switches, door bells, bell switches, emergency lights, key switches, data and RF connectors, etc. Btcino is one of the popular brands. Have a look at their online catalogue! You do have to run mains and low voltage / data in separate conduit, so that needs to be borne in mind when planning an installation.
If that's an old installation, I would have checked between one side of the socket and earth. Historically in Italy lights were single phase to neutral, sockets were phase to phase. With lights at 127 volts and sockets at 220.
That was a lot of years ago. The usual way is to have 230V for everything (phase to neutral).
@@elsart0 Yup! Nowadays everything is on a single transformer tap; and the transformers can now also do three phase if you request it.
only 230 V in Italy now.
Thats a bit like the PE in finland. It was made mandantory first after the 90s.... And people consider it to be enough if they have that upgraded safety including the PE for their bathroom. RCDs are mandantory of course now. But heh. In Germany the PE was made mandantory in the 70 I think(1973?) and existed way before that Maybe in a similar way people in italy thought that 230V is a good enough upgrade to power for some time. New cables are not needed :-D. And now we have 2020 and nothing has happened :-D
@@sschmachtel8963 Earthing was made mandatory in Finland for kitchens and bathrooms in 1930. Originally it was done with PEN. Since 1989 separate PE was required unless one used 10 mm² PEN-cable. Earthing was also required if one had a conductive floor. As a kid we had such a floor on the TV corner. We had a German made TV that was fitted with ungrounded plug as it was sold to Finland. Then we had an illegal self-made cheater cord to allow it being plugged. Since the late 70s TVs and other electronics has been double insulated with europlugs so it is not longer an issue. I wonder would it have bee simpler to sell the TV with a schuko plug but then people would have thought it needs a grounded socket. In Germany earthing was required even before if there was central heating. In Finland that is not counted as every room has it anyway. There is some rule that you cannot have an unearthed socket closer than 2 m from radiator but with all the extension cords rules like that are meaningless.
A very interesting insight, like you, I also find stuff like this intriguing.... Looks very dodgy to me, but, I had a great laugh, I just love your comments 👍🏻😊😂😁🤣
Hi. We have been holidaying in Italy for years now and have had the running to the basement to reset many times too. It constantly amazes me that they don't get way more electrical fires than they do. Loose sockets, lashed up wiring, multiple adaptors, plugs that simply fall out of the socket. We were told that electricity in Italy is expensive and when we got the itemised bill for extras we verified this with our own meter readings. There is a multi tier billing system in place. If you have a small rated trip for your house, apartment etc the unit price for the power is less. If you opt for a larger breaker to protect your accommodation, you can pull more power through it before it trips, but the unit price is higher. The Italian's try to save power be dis-incentivising heavy usage. I guess if it was cheap, the air con would never go off in the hot summers, and consumption would be enormous. Therefore, giving you the option to be a heavier user means they also penalise you to deter excessive consumption, although you can now run everything in the apartment at the same time without tripping out.
I live in Spain,my potentia is only 1.5kw,we have to be very selective on what we run,basically only one thing with a heater unit,kettle,washing machine,hairdrier,you get the picture,but we cope very well.All our cables run in flexy conduit,it's the norm here.
Is that in an apartment then?
Boom..... music...... relax to some of Dave’s relaxing electrical chat...... BOOM MUSIC ⚠️. It’s keeping me awake 😂
I'm kinda blown for the lack of selectivity in this installation. Very interesting content :) By the way, the volume of your musical transitions is at least 10 to 20 dB louder than your voice, could you turn it down in your future videos please? Enjoy your holidays :)
In my work i used 10 mm to main Line and 4mm where the high consume needed like kitchen and washing room,
The house next door to us in Italy has no circuit breaker at all - and the owner is proud of it. We have a supply of 3kW and it's really not enough.
Hey I've been an electrician for 43 years , the last thing I want to do on holidays is rummage around electrical cabinets , i'd rather have a cold one in my hand by the pool , but hey ho takes all sorts .
I was living in rural central Italy in 2017 and unfortunately, I've forgotten all the figures I was given, but I do remember the supply being surprisingly low. But there was a one-off fee of €400 you could pay to get an increase to 4.5kW if I remember correctly.
Meters with built in isolators. . . . . brilliant. There are some older "dumb" meters around in the UK with inbuilt isolators, but not smart meters. Main fuses will be behind the padlocked casing door.
Usually in Italy new electric systems are quite different. is true we usualy have just a 3kw suply that explains why ours systems have usualy less circuits. the main breaker is in the basement of the building due to a problem of proprity of infrustracure. in new buldings usualy we have much larger pannels the flat of the video eaven if it's look renovated the electrical system is still one of the old ones. We don't have any type of regular inspection on our elettric systems.
Discovering Italy :) Yep, 3kW limit with the standard domestic supply. You pay Enel a higher rate for a higher capacity supply and most people don't; I imagine the landlord is paying for a higher supply because British tourists just blow the trip every five minutes :-D You learn real quick that you need to stagger the use of higher-consumption items - and why Italians don't have rapid boil 3kW electric kettles and almost universally have gas hobs. I imagine the 3kW limit means they don't get the kind of surge demand we see in the UK. Also, Italy doesn't have any nuclear power stations - I think Italy is a net importer of electricity from France, Switzerland etc by quite some margin. I guess that could change if they were to scale up modern renewables. Everyone is on a smart meter like that where Enel don't have to visit every property all the time - they switched everyone lock, stock, and barrel in the early 2000's, so none of the hanging around we've had in the UK. I was living in a condominium near Torino at the time, and they got the mapping between meter and flat wrong so I was paying someone else's bill for a while. It got corrected ok, despite what must have been my bad Italian :)
don't know much about how Italy do stuff, but here in Denmark stuff like this has been illegal since the 1950s. By our standards this is the kind of installation that would've been made prior to regulation, so before the 1950s where you could do pretty much whatever you wanted and the only requirement was to have fuse protection on the circuit.
Spent 13 years in Portugal. 3 bed house, Electric hob and oven. Oil heating. Total 6KVA single phase. Include dishwasher, washing machine, fridge and 2 freezers with 2car garage and tripped main breaker is common.
Thanks for sharing
I've seen main circuit breaker in basement in Czech Republic. But it's also can be on each floor outside apartment (one for each apartment on the floor of course). So it can be just how this building was designed and not a rule in Italy
Countries like Italy have a very low supply because they use gas for heating and cooking. So they need power for only washer, TV, kitchen appliances and only recently for AC. 20-25A single phase for apartments is very common even in newer buildings.
for me i alwasy use individual room circuit so in tthe main board i have 40A diffirentiel switch then two set of switches 16A for electrical outlet and 10A for light. so when you got a problem in one room you do not need to cut out for all the houce
what you said @ 10:30, spot on, that's precisely the idea... because Italy
To me it looks like the meters have been upgraded in an existing installation. The power limit per apartment is likely due to that the incoming is limited to a certain power level, so when everyone comes back for the evening and turns on the AC then the main breaker/fuse for the building shouldn't trip. Personally I prefer the breakers with ground fault handling per circuit since it helps narrowing down the scope of the problem. In many cases it could also help working with the problem since it's often an appliance and then you still have light available.
No, the power limit is because the people inside have only paid for 3kW because that's the standard and is fine for what they need. ENEL will happily bring you 6kW monophase or even 10, 15 kW three phase, maybe more if you want, you just have to pay the one time power change fee (23€ + 55€/kW) and the recurrent grid fees (21.48€/kW yearly) for it. If they need to upgrade the supply to bring you the power you want, that's their problem and they'll do it at no additional cost. Additionally if it is impossible/too expensive for them to bring you a three phase supply the local distributor can decide to increase your single phase supply past 6kW even if it's normally not allowed. You can also request them to do this yourself but it's at their discretion and they usually deny it.
Yeah it is good to have separate RCDs. Except that it doesnt make sense to have any additional breakers when you have only a 1x13A supply. And the breaker downstairs will trip before the breaker in your home. :-D Actually it could be even wise to install only 10A breakers... such that you dont need to run downstairs that often
I know this video is nearly 5 months ago Jordan but just in case you werent aware is this was nigh-on unwatchable due to the volume difference in the beginning of the video. I appreciate you filmed and edited abroad. If you edit on pc/mac what ever you use, normalize your audio levels so whatever scene changes you have or just with music the audio gets balanced. A great video nonetheless of what appears to be working on the channel when on holiday!! I think we have nothing to be worried about in terms of regs or way of doing things when you compare a good uk electrician vs one from the top say 6 EU country electricians.
Here in the US my garage has two a 100 amp panel with 8 breakers, far more power available than your whole apartment. In my house of 1200 square feet is a 200 amp panel with 28 breakers.
I can tell you about Spain. Standard supply to residences is just 3 kilowatt, properties over 20 years old are even limited to this due to the poor wiring. You can request higher, our house is 5.5 kilowatt. Over this - you can go to 7 and then 9 kilowatt supply then its on to 3 phase which oddly is offered to dometic residences! But as I said the property has to be under 20 years old (ours was built 18 years ago for us) again its down to cost, most homes stick at 5.5 because the charges for electricity get extortionate after that level. Also all homes seem to be wired on an ad hoc basis, ie what the leccy felt like on the day! The system in use is radial spur not ring main, but how its wired is another thing. For instance I can throw the isolator for our smallest bedroom and it turns off the lights and sockets in that room, however it also turns off the sockets in the lounge! Throw another and it turns off the lights in the lounge the sockets in the laundry and lights and sockets in our outside BBQ kitchen and pump house! You get the picture :) Oh yes, I have even seen an old property wired completely lights and sockets with the old fashioned fabric covered twisted lamp flex stapled up the walls!
Does the building have a 3X230V supply? It is quite common in some countries and I would guess the supplies have been split across the various appartments. My house in Belgium has as a 3x230V supply at 40A which surprised me when I first saw it and some applicances like the kitchen hob uses 3x230V on a 20A breaker
You have to pay more to have more power basically, so 3kw Costa let's say £50 to get 4kw you call the power company and they come and boost it at a cost. You then pay a higher kw hour price. It used to piss me off when I put the toaster on and the kettle and couldn't turn anything else on for fear of tripping the switch. Those wires that are taped up probably aren't crimped they just twist them together and tape them up. Seeing those terminal blocks is pretty rare. Most of the electrics I see are scary.
Twisting together taped up 🤦♂️ that's some crazy shit
Oh yeah that is a really good way. If your costumer wants to buy more he has to do it at a higher cost. Genious idea! Thats like at a petrol station ... you take 30l pay 1,10€/L but if you take 50l it's 1,20€/L. Totally logic since there is not enough petrol for sure and not any idea that because of shortage one might want to increase the supply of petrol. :-D. Keep the supply low to earn more..... and for every company that is self evident. Good prerequisite for progress
Electrical regulations here in Italy are actually very strict. The reason why there where only 2 circuits it's because the installation was very old (you can see it from the old fuse box). Normally in Italy (in the case of a single floor apartment) you would now arrange a circuit for lights, one for sockets and then single circuits for every high load applicance, or you can also find a separate fuse box just for the kitchen for example. 3.3kw has been the standard supply size for years, more modern apartments can now have 4.5 or 6kw supplies. It is also true that we do not use any electric shower etc, and usually when you have this "small" size supplies it's because you use gas for the kitchen and to heat water, otherwise you will find bigger supplies usually 3 phase 10kw (or more) ones, that are becoming the standard for bigger houses. The reason why meters are all together is to make life easier to the contractor, but you can also put the meter inside the apartment, and with small size supplies you would now fit an energy meter inside the fuse board that will tell you if you are about to reach the current limit and eventually breaks the non-priority circuit, so that you won't have to go outside/downstairs. The main elevator switch in that position is mandatory for safety reasons in some type of buildings; normally you would find it inside a glass-protected box, on the ground floor, and no one will never touch it.
Weird to see that much hooked on a small supply, but it’s quite common in continental Europe to have these “meter limited” supplies where the fuses are larger than the contractual supply and the meter pops the main breaker if it senses a larger draw than agreed upon. In Finland it’s either a 1x25A for small apartments (or older larger ones), or 3x25A for houses and larger apartments, but then again we don’t have ACs or heating hooked on the supply in apartments, everything is central heating and cooling on complex level (and usually district heating as well).
I have 40 A / 400 V on a small apartment. I used to have 40 A /230 V before it was changed bout a decade ago.
You would NEVER use that lift in the UK. Someone would turn that switch off every 5 minutes for a laugh.
Yeah, such an obvious thing to do :-D. And turn it on again short before the technician arrives :-D
It made me feel bad just seeing how narrow the door is and how cramped the car itself is. Claustrophobics nightmare!
It's bad enough that we have to have the bathroom light switches outside the room in UK now. My family always thinks its hilarious to leave me on the pan in the dark.
@@KX36 yup. Been there, done that, shit self. Lucky I was on the shitter.
I have heard it suggested that most countries other than ours have fewer regulations, sockets in bathrooms, etc, because they trust their people to be sensible. I lived in Australia where it was common to have an unshuttered socket, on a 20A radial, within inches of a sink (and plugs were unfused). In the UK we apparently need extra protection. I wonder why this is? Are we deemed to be stupid? Regarding current limits, a friend in a French rural property has a 10A supply! Like some campsites, you have to use a 1kw kettle and only use one appliance at a time. It works for holidays even if you couldn't live with it long-term.
Yeah french campsites are the worst! 6A breakers feeding a 16A socket! what the heck. LOL
Redundancy, UK regs are built around two things going wrong for anything to be dangerous. Australia does have regs about distances from sinks to sockets (or gpo's as they're called), but in bathrooms these distances are superseded by being inside a cupboard. Out of all the aussie regs that's nothing in comparison! Single insulated cables in walls, not earthing screws on faceplates, I could go on. At least they take fire regs seriously, they're ripping all flammable cladding off buildings while UK politicians vote against the grenfell inquiry recommendations...
@@felixmoran1 In the three houses I lived in, including one from late 90s, there were sockets by the sink - not in cupboards. My point was that UK seems to be far more protective when it comes to regulations like this. There was no MoT either in my State.
You've got to be kidding me! As a Dutch (former) electrician UK electrics scare me! The Netherlands has as many house fires for ANY reason than the UK has domestic electrical fires (percentage wise, so don't come saying the UK is bigger). If I had to explain why I think UK electrics are shocking (pun intended) this would become an essay...
@@tobysherring1369 if the GPO is less than 400mm above the sink or 150mm to the side and not in a cupboard, then it isn't up to the regs. I can assure you of this.
Those tourists apartments are usually renovated as cheaply as possible so don't expect grandiose things on tourist places. Anyway the 3kW (16A) is pretty much the standard power for most houses. THe smart meters will trip if you go over 130% of the rated power for more than a minute or 2. For those surprised by the power you have to consider that in Italy is very rare to have electrical heating and electrical stoves, those usually run on methane gas. Even AC was not as common as in other countries I think. But the trend is definitely moving towards installing higher powers.
Very interesting to look at...
Thanks! How were the audio levels?
Yer they were fine, every seemed clear. Maybe a little bit of echo when you were in the basement but I'd expect that
Thanks
@@artisanelectrics The music is way too loud when wearing headphones.
Sorry
Here in Portugal most flats have 3.45 or 6.9 kVA (single phase 15 or 30Amps). we pay more if we have more power. Also during electrical certification (at the end of construction) the owner has to pay a fee to the electrical power company.
In Italy there are various contracts for the choice of power: 1,5kW, 3kW, 6kW in single-phase 220 / 230V and all the others in three-phase 380 / 400V starting from 6 kW. The breaker in the video mounted on the meter acts as a power limiter, precisely for this reason a GEM meter (The meter in question in the video) or GEMIS allows you to reach a maximum power of 3.3kW with a 3kW contract for an unlimited time. Exceeded 3.3kW up to 4 you can absorb power for a maximum of 3 hours, even exceeded 4kW you can absorb power for a maximum of 3/2 minutes. When the maximum power threshold is exceeded, the meter sends an electrical impulse to the release coil located in the meter breaker, causing it to trip. (Hope That’s Useful)
Nice video, i'm waiting to see you're video from Poland :D (and other countries more on East)
I've seen some countries in Europe some sockets are connected to light switches If moving abroad would it be expensive to rewire the circuits so only the wall and ceiling lights were controlled by switches?
I’m Spanish... not Italian, however all that looks very familiar to me... now I’m living in Southampton, and thinking about rejoin my electrician career, and is quite funny how different is everything... And about the power, in Spain at least, for a 4 bedroom house you got 9.75kW
This reminds me of the now very out-dated 1920s & 1930s North American domestic installs where you'd have split-single-phase coming in with each phase conductor going through a 15 amp glass fuse, on a wood backboard.. sometimes with an exposed knife switch as a cut-out. an un-fused "return wire" also passed through. Not necessarily bonded to earth, so calling it a neutral is a stretch. This was called "30 amp service". Commonly one circuit was used for lighting, and one for sockets. It was 15 amps phase to phase at 220v, or 30 amp additive at 110v. Just a bit over 3kw at either utilization voltage. Some of those installations are still in use today.. usually vastly exceeding it's original design in both load and intended service life. I know Italy has better electrical standards these days. That building's basic installation design must be quite old having updates only pieced in, or simply not compliant at the time of installation. As to the power meters, I believe Italy has a service level tariff system similar to France, where your basic fee is determined by the number of amps you are capable of drawing at once. The shunt trip on the side of the main switch/breaker in the meter will disconnect power if you exceed the paid for instantaneous amperage as programed at the meter.
Gotta love how anyone can access the electrical switchgear 😃
Hi Jordan, nice Video again. What would you suggest should the minimum of the power input be for a 3 Room flat? I think a 32A breaker should be reserved for the airconditioning. And at least one 16 A per room for the sockets as well as one 16A for parts of the lights. I would not put all lights on the same ring to make sure not all lights go off at the same time.
Curdin Gees 32 Amps for aircon? That's over 7kw of power, which would give you closer to 30kw of cooling- it's a small flat, not a frozen food warehouse!
Far cry from my 2 bedroom in Canada.... we have at least 100A supply on 2 phases at 120v @ 60hz. We also have electric heat. So we have 4 2 phase breakers 1 for each heating circuit and 1 for the range (hob and oven in one) 3 15A single phase breakers for plugs / lights. Our breakers have both plugs and lights on each one. At least the breakers are better then our old place with old p type glass fuses....
Also in Canada, we don't have RCBO protection at the CU. Individual sockets are protected via a device called a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupter) they need to be installed in Kitchens and Bathrooms. Yes in Canada we can have outlets in our bathrooms also depending on the distance we can light switches inside bathrooms except if a shower/bath is close by. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_board www.bobvila.com/articles/gfci-outlets/#:~:text=A%20GFCI%20outlet%20contains%20a,of%20electricity%20in%20the%20outlet.
You know there's those solar power inverters that have a solar array, battery bank and an inverter, connected to your house wiring. The feed from your electrical company gets an amp measuring coil. The inverter delivers just enough power to your house that it never backfeeds into the power grid. This is because the electrical company does not pay you back what you feed into the grid. (well, depends on your contract and how smart the grid power meter is.) With that setup, you will be able to have a much higher maximum power what you can use: your inverter's power plus the grid's 3kW. And on cloudy days, you just recharge your battery bank at night, from mains. In my country, one phase 35Amp at 230V is the minimum. In my rental, I have three 16A circuits on that. Two on one RCBO and one for the washing machine on its own RCBO. Lights and wall sockets are mixed. And we have gas for cooking, hot water and heating. Incoming feed is already 3 phases but only one is connected. Monthly fixed fee would be bigger for 3 phases. But the natural gas is only for the time being. Gov wants residential gas completely phased out in 20 or 30 years or so. And on top of that, we are supposed to switch to electric vehicles. So our grid probably already has plenty reserve capacity. But in Italy, electricity is basically already rationed. So what will they do, to live up to emissions agreements? Plugging up their volcanoes with fast-drying concrete? Anyway, as it is in Italy, I would probably arrange something with my neighbor. I'd build a box with a relay in it that connects to my supply when energized and to his supply when not energized. Relay will be energized by my supply. At the output I'd connect my internet router, computer and such, and one light. This setup will switch those things to his supply if mine would disconnect because of accidental overload. Same could be built at his side for his computer and router. But... if you would be on a different phase than your neighbor, the switching action might damage something. Especially with high inductive loads or with fancy switch mode power supplies with active cos phi correction in them. In the case of different phases, a wire to your neighbor can still be fun. You'll have 400V to play with. But that would probably trip the RCBOs on leakage immediately. Another solution for accidental overload tripping of your italian smart meter is to mount a 12V solenoid close to it and connect it mechanically to the breaker. Run a wire to your apartment and you'll be able to re-energize from upstairs, by pulsing it with a 4S Lithium Polymer battery. If the breaker is of the type that need to be turned off first before you can turn it on, then replace the solenoid's metal core with a neodymium magnet and you'll be able to switch off and on by swapping the polarity of your LiPo battery. That solenoid construction will fit right in into the generally dodgy-looking metering panel in that apartment complex. And if the solenoid is well in place and proven to be working reliably, one might as well add an Arduino and some mosfets, for fully automatic re-energizing. And if the building owner or the electrical company deletes your solenoid, you can re-purpose the LiPo battery for a low-voltage emergency supply for your internet wifi router and swap your desktop computer for a laptop with a battery in it. I understand, it would be a bit overkill if you're just staying there temporarily for a holiday or whatever, but it would be fun, wouldn't it?
3 kW is the normal supply in Italy. The point of having 3 kW is to try and convince people to use LESS electricity and not to use high consumption appliance all at the same time. You can upgrade to 4.6 kW but you will pay extra. The three wires are for neutral, live and earth, but often earth and neutral are wired together. The meters in the basement have a black button. When you press it it will cycle between the following data, showing on the display: Contract Number Service telephone number Instant consumption - A band (from 8 o' clock to 19.00 hours) Instant consumption - B band (from 19.00 hours to midnight) Instant consumption - C band (from midnight to 8 o' clock) Previous month consumption - band A, B and C again Actual consumption Previous month consumption I can be wrong somewhere i.e. I do not want to go downstair and work it, so I am going by heart. The other box contains the switches for common electric appliances , i.e. burner, drainage pumps, external lights, electric gate. I would say the units are standard, the fitting is a bit slack but you must expect this in Central and Southern Italy. Where I live in the North everything is neater but equipment is the same.
Actually the cable from the bottom of the Meter are the one feeding the flat, the meter is Fed from a bar behind. The cable must be double insulated if not a mcb rcd 0.03A is required within 3 m of the meter, still many houses only have rcd Upstair (illigal). In the flat the illuminazione (lightning) circuit is 10A 1.5 mm cable the sockets 2.5mm 16A
The Double Pole thin breakers are called DPN
The "auxiliary" contact is what is used by the meter itself to cut power in case of overdraft or just to remotely enable and disable supplies we just need to call the supplier and have the meter enabled remotely (or disabled if it detects it have been tampered). Also with these meters can be remotely set to raise or lower the supply without having a technician to go out. Anyway the setup in that building is not up to code because it seems there's not an MCB right after the meter (we can't, by code, trust the meter's switch to protect the main feed if longer than 3m) I still confirm 3kW (3,9 for 90 minutes) is by far the most common electric contract here in Italy. Few have 4,5kW, but today all new and rebuild must be able to deliver at least 6kW and have at least 4 circuits for a dwelling.
I would love if you did a review on Belguim electrics. But i dont think you go on vacation in belguim. Stil love your vids!
Thanks!
I’d go to Belgium good chocolate
Honestly, it's usually not that different from UK electrics. It's generally fine. It's not too different from italy in terms of looks; but in terms of power distribution we have a lot of safety measures that make sure you don't lose all your power. That being said, there's too many twenty year old RCD's still in service in Belgium.
@@AnnaVannieuwenhuyse "too many twenty year old RCD's still in service" I think thats kind of a luxury problem. You mean you have those fimsy 1.5mm2 cables as the input to your flat? No fun! Or you mean the same just with thicker cables (I hope so for you)
@@sschmachtel8963 as most people seem to rent nowadays, my suggestion is that if you do see this, you should report this so the landlord can fix it. There should absolutely never be 1.5 anywhere on an input. Every phase has something at least 2.5 for a single room flat if it wants to be up to code.
At 7:28 its a shunt trip. I guess the meter activates it if you haven't payed your bill or if the amps are higher than what your contract says. The power is quite low for the Greek standards. Usually we have 1x40Amps (single phase) or 3x40 Amps (three phases) but larger houses like mansions may have 3x63, 80 or even 100Amps. The voltage in Greece is 230/400VAC at 50Hz. All the meters of a building are located usually in a closet like this in the basement but each meter is enclosed in its own bulky box usually called "the turtle" because of its shape. Most of the meters are analog (some of them dating from early 50s usually in Athens) and they have a fuse or an MCB. The RCD is located in the premises (you have to have at least one and all circuits must be protected with). The usual path is this: Transformer->Transformer's low voltage fuse box with knife type fuses (usually 200Amps) for every line->Overhead or buried Line->Buried Line junction box or junction on a pole->Bus bar box (if there are more than one meters)->MCB or fuse->Meter->[Main switch->Master MCB or fuse->RCD->Secondary MCBs for sockets, lights etc]. [ ] means inside the property. The arrangement inside the premises might be different if the its a mansion for example like MCCB->MCBs for each floor's panel->Main floor switch->MCB->RCD->Secondary MCBs for sockets, lights etc. The fuse/MCB of the box either is rated higher than the apartment's (40A box->32A apartment) or with slower response curve to minimize trips. The box is protected with a seal and there is another seal for the meter. Generally speaking you have to have a certain basic safety according to our regulations for example to have at least one RCD ΙΔ30mA, main switch, master fuse/mcb and secondary mcbs. If the electrician wants to exceed and add more there is no problem you can have RCD for every circuit if the customer pays. All the circuits are controlled from the panel, there are no switches and fuses around the house. The switch and fuse for the oven is inside the panel, the same for each air condition, the water heater, each room's circuit etc. If you want to turn on the water heater you flip the switch from the panel not from a switch outside the bathroom's door. It's a great advantage because from one place you control everything (not talking the light switches!) and you can automate your home by adding relays and basic plcs inside the panel without having to access every switch around the house. A Greek panel might have just the basic stuff in most cases but you can find many other things like ammeters, relays, time switches, overvoltage controllers that they send signal to relays of air conditioners to trip if the voltage is abnormal, surge arresters, warning buzzers, etc. In simple terms you have to have the basic and then you can add whatever you want if these things don't violate any chapter or paragraph of the standards (called "ELOT HD 384")
And i have the balls to complain about only having a 30KW (Three-phase 25A) supply?? 3KW, that's NOTHING. That's probably also the reason EV's aren't that big in Italy (that and the heat), you just can't really charge them at home without turning off aircon. The setup you showed us seems to be the norm in Italy, last year while i was on vacation in Grosetto i had a look at our flat's board. It was a pretty new building, but the main breakers for the flat were 3x C16 (three-phase). Great video mate, keep up the good work, enjoy your vacation. You deserved it.
Thanks!
To be fair you can get 6kW for 70 euros more at year, not a lot of money. To get more than 6kW you have to get a 3 phase supply (a little more expensive but again like 150 euro more at year, nothing if you need that). Most people doesn't get it because they don't need it, or even they don't even know that they could get it, typically one increases the power when he installs an induction cooker or a big heat pump and find out that using it while using something else will trip the meter. To be fair I don't even have more than 3.3kW, paying 70 euros more at year just to have the washing machine and the dish washer running at the same time to me doesn't make a lot of sense, especially nowadays where if you want you can schedule the start time of the appliances.
I have a 3kW supply and I've never had issues. I don't even have a gas cooktop, it's induction (which is super rare here) and I have an electric water heater. Also the contract is nominally 3kW, but with our smart meters you can pull 110% (3.3kW) indefinitely, 133% (3.99kW) for 3 hours at a time and "unlimited" power (actually 63A) for 2 minutes before they cut you off. That's *plenty* for anyone who doesn't have AC and doesn't have an induction cooktop, which is the vast majority of homes, and it's enough even for those who do if you keep track of what you're using. I don't see what's so difficult about turning the water heater off before firing up the oven or fryer (which are the only two things that trip the meter immediately in combination with the heater/each other). Yeah every once in a while I forget and the meter trips, big deal it's a 5 second walk to the boiler disconnect and the meter to reset it, since I have them both just by the entrance. The meter also starts flashing SUPERO POTENZA RISCHIO DISTACCO (power exceeded disconnection risk) on its screen before tripping, so if you have it in sight it's super obvious. I'm thinking of upgrading my contract to 6kW (the limit for a monophase supply) and at that point honestly it should never trip. When am I gonna use more than 7.98kW at once? Honestly with a 30kW supply I can't possibly think of enough loads to plug in at once to even get _close_ to the limit, let alone trip it. Electric cars aren't big here because most people live in apartments with on-street parking, not because of the power thing. If you want a higher power connection the distributor will happily bring it to you, you just have to pay for it and go three phase if over 6kW. Someone who's dropping 30-40K for an electric car is unlikely to be turned off by a 1-200€/year increase in the grid fee.
3kW is me turning the speakers on while the freezer is freezing my corndogs. :)
I'm afraid I don't quite get your calcs - surely 25 A per phase doesn't equal 30 kW? Our DNO advertises 25 A as 18 kW.
Hi Jordan, I am not an electrician, but I am very fascinated by your videos and I have been watching you for a while…Guess what, I am Italian, and in this last video you pushed some of my buttons. The standard power supply that you get by default here is limited to 3kw+10% (peak for few minutes), this power supply can be brought up to max 6Kw+10% following a contract change and a fee (one-off fee + little extra cost on each bill). This obviously been on single phase, 3 phase is all another story. This for us is supernormal, we learn from the early age that you cannot have everything running at the same time, and that actually most of the heavy loads are better to be run overnight (cheaper rate), so really is not the end of the world. Obviously, with many more appliances, electrical gadgets, solar panels, EV a lot of people are increasing the power supply, but it remains a personal choice. The beauty is that what you were looking at in the cabinet are smart-meters that are completely managed/monitored remotely, and they do not need any physical intervention to be modified (as long as you do not move to 3 phase). What you have found in this flat complex is actually pretty well done and organized, do you really want to compare it what you have shown us in the UK? Joking aside, there was nothing to be worry or be afraid of, houses in Italy rarely catch fire due to electrical fault.
Forgot to add... Great Videos mate, you are a natural teacher and I truly enjoy watching how you solve everyday's problems...I tell you what...if I only could go back a few years I would probably become a sparky myself.... keep it up and congrats.
OMG you pay so much money for such a bad electricity service. Anyway, is it that italy has not enough power plants or why do you need to restrict it to 6KW? It just sounds like a pleasent never change a running system, building cables is expensive attitude of the electricity suppliers. For europe that is way below standard I would say
@@sschmachtel8963 I am only watching this video now, and it seems to me to be quite instrumental and tending to denigrate the way in which Italian civil and industrial electrical systems are made. As per your laughable and free comment, you always tend to give a stereotypical and false vision of our country! However going to the point of the matter, in Italy electrical systems are regulated in a very stringent manner and comply with European regulations, which have drawn many standards from our system, I remind you that the first magnetothermic switches were invented and mounted in various applications precisely in Italy, an obvious and undeniable fact. The proof is that in many countries I have visited in Europe and in the world they adopt Italian systems and equipment (VIMAR BTicino GEWISS etc etc) and it does not seem to me that there have ever been fires or explosions. I think you have no idea what Italy really is, in fact I don't think you have a completely wrong idea! Furthermore, on the matter of the powers available in Italy, ranging from 1.5KW to 10 KW in residential homes, remotely adjustable upon simple request, thanks to the fact that for over 17 years here we have smart digital meters, now we are at the third generation, moreover, in all homes there is the obligation to section the system into at least two main lines that are independently sectioned, minimum section allowed 4mm square.
@@andreaflyngitalian2785 He has the right, and should, highlight what we perceive as the bad parts. Then maybe you people can get it updated. BTW, in the UK the average apartment has a limit of 60A which is approx 14kW. No extra charges, and cutting off your supply if you go over, etc. To us the Italian and French system are third world. All strange to us. You do have well set out main panels which we can learn from.
french Electric distribution panel was awesome
Who needs all those electrical codes if you have fine wine and beautiful weather, you just want to make it work and go have fun.
that looks to me as a bad electric installation...it's a partially renewed apartment and the whole system looks pretty old. Yes, here in italy the normal electric supply is limited to 3.3 Kw, we get used to... normally we have gas boiler and stove (gas is cheaper here than electricity) so it isn't that bad!
Is that a shunt trip so If the power goes out it trips so when the power comes back on it's not drawing all that power,?
This video is the equivalent of me going on holiday and spending time investigating the hotel or apartment's WiFi and checking out the local rail service
They limit the power to each building ,being a small island they can only generate a certain of amount supply ,is limited power to each flat ,
No submarine power cables from the mainland?
@@heronimousbrapson863 may be there internal mains cables need up dating ,there must be a reason they limit the intake to a block of flats,just think if the island was in full holiday season and everyone puts on there a/c
3 kW is standard everywhere in italy
This video has made me LoL... Spot on... but you only scratched surface here. I'm no electrician, but I did a lot of DIY on my house in UK with some help from an electrician mate, so I know basic rules... Now, I live in Italy and do some maintenance work for company I work for, as well as do some DIY on my flat... and it's you don't know whether you want to laugh or cry. I don't know how many times I found lights that have switched on neutral side, or sockets with phase and neutral swapped over along the run. AFAIU, the integrated 63Amp MCB on the meter is tripped at rated current (3k, 4k, or 4.5k or whatever). The meter measures the consumption and triggers it. And, it is true 3k is standard... we have an electric oven, immersion water heater (for summer months) and washing machine which cannot be on at the same time, or we have a flight of stairs down to reset the MCB at the meter. All wiring are done with multi-strand single flex. There are basic colour coding (EU directive, I think), but often find remains of circuits pre-date the regulation, and they're enigma... scary.
The power limit is fairly standard across many parts of Europe. I have seen the same limits in Spain and France. Places where you can't run the oven, the hob and boil the kettle at the same time. The trunking is fairly standard in the UK too for anything that needs to have the cables break out and regular points. Was very popular in data centres for a long time and you still find it in high end installs as well. Panduit used to be a big player in that market.
The main frustration here is likely that the AC is tripping the whole circuit of the whole room.
Meters tripping due to turning on two "heavy" appliances at once: yep happens all the time. The fire hazard concerns are a lot less central because you might have noticed that most buildings are 100% masonry/concrete and hence not flammable. As for the technical/regulatory details, other comments cover that
Yep ... for obvious reasons if you keep it at 3 kW, the chance is very low that anything actually could start to burn. Any common fixed wiring cable will be fine with that current. And actually if you have a crappy electrician come over and he does something suboptimal, such as choose a too thin cable... during that time it might get warm but not hot enough to start a fire. So that tripping main braker is quite a safety device :-D. If you do something wrong eleswhere with say 25A in a 1.5mm2 cable this can be quite bad and actually could start a fire before the main fuses blow
@@sschmachtel8963 BTW the current generation of smart meters have a bit of leeway: they will allow up to +10% (3.3kW) indefinitely, up to 4kW for up to 3h, and higher for up to 4 minutes. All of the above are software triggered, not safety devices. The actual trip current of the breaker is much higher, I think the video here is implying that's 60A = 14kW?
The available power is remotely reduced to 500 VA by the supplier if you have an unpaid bill... They use this method to alert you of unpaid bills...
I was on holiday in Odessa, Ukraine in 2019, the flat i rented was lovely, the electrical wiring did not have a cm of cpc anywhere, washing machine, 3Kw water heater, nothing was earthed. There was an rcd, but it served no purpose. UK electrical is definitely more robust and regulated. Can't imagine doing an eicr with no cpc present in the UK.
RCDs do in fairness work without a CPC connection... They measure imbalance between line and neutral. That's why we use them outside... Just in case you become the fault path to earth... But I hear what you're saying...
@@travoltasbiplane1551 Agree 100%, i was thinking of extraneous conductive parts becoming live under fault conditions.