32A Ring Circuit, Can a 24A Junction box Handle It?
2024 ж. 28 Сәу.
24 912 Рет қаралды
The ring final socket circuit is an intriguing creation, with a 32 Amp rating yet wired using a cable of around 20 Amps. This discrepancy led to some bewilderment among eFIXX viewers during our recent assessment of the new Quickwire 24A Junction box. Joe Hammond delves deeper into this matter.
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Learn more about the Quickwire 24A Splitter Junction Box 👉
hub.efixx.co.uk/quickwire
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00:00 Adding an extra socket - your questions are answered!
00:34 24 Amp Junction box on a 32 Amp circuit.
03:03 Two spurs from one junction box?
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#junctionbox #electricians #electricalinstallation
Learn more about the new Quickwire junction box 👉kzhead.info/sun/ZcaGfctubXyEf4U/bejne.html
You do a great job guys with all your videos guys, wish I had this 30 years ago, well done 👍
Kitchen fitters are going to love those! They can provide sockets for the tumble drier, dishwasher, hob and the washing machine off that one piece of 24A rated plastic, while it also carries the current of anything else on the ring! Legally!! Honestly, this industry is sleep walking into disaster 🙄
Don’t be silly, kitchen fitters won’t spend the money on somthing like that when they can keep twisting cables together and hiding them under the kick boards
You ever wired kitchen grid switches on a ring, it’s no better or worse, no single part of a ring is meant to be carrying 32A
@@edc1569Depends on what you mean by any single part of a ring. The breaker on a ring is typically rated at 32 amps, so the ring is expected to be loaded up to that amount. But as we know the ring is made up of two conductors for each line conductor so the current is split between them.
if it is, the ring's broken, yep... I still don't like concentrated heavy loads on a ring, but for a couple of spurs for IT or AV equipment it's fine (altho for that we typically spur off once then run it through a 13A FCU with as many sockets as needed for the equipment)
@@TheChipmunk2008 A ring has a 32A breaker. Load it up to 32A on one side of the ring. It would have to be taking less than 20% from one leg for a cable to be overloaded. Then, say *if* it is overloaded the cable will get warm increasing resistance making more current come from the other leg. Auto correcting. I have *never* come across an unbalanced ring.
These are awesome end of discussion 😁. All the range is tbh 👌👌
Use them all the time now a great time saving product 👌
Thanks, Carl. Glad they are helping you out ;)
Never used one but they look amazing tbf
Never seen these before and will definitely try some if available at the wholesalers. My only immediate thought is in regards to strain relief. Do those black clips offer this? Like I said I need to actually use one............The range of solutions to supposed electrical problems is now mind bogglingly vast, but everynow and then one actually makes a usefull improvement to install times and safety overall. We will see...........................
hub.efixx.co.uk/quickwire
Really helpful. I've been reticent to install a component rated below the circuit protection. I still am. I wish that QW would just get it approved for 32a ... that said, this has really helped. I do like a reg to back up decisions. I will probably stick with the orange quick box with wagos though.
Just ban rings
How many distribution boards are you fitting to have every socket fed individually.
@@damiendye6623why would you have to do that
@@henrystevens2258 well what's stopping the sed issues with a ring happening on a radial, err none so you might as well stay with a ring then
I am a big fan of the quickwire junction boxes and have been using them for over a year, they are always on the van and are a brilliant solution in multiple situations, but a 24A junction box on a 32A ring just doesn’t sit right. If you use a clipped direct method with no insulation, the cable is rated at 27A. If you spur 1x 2 gang socket off of the ring, each of the socket outlets could have appliances plugged in with 13A fuses on each plug equating to 26A. You really don’t know what someone is going to plug in where on the circuit and for how long that load will be present. I really think they should have at least rated this junction box to 26A at a bare minimum or 32A ideally, quickwire have fallen short on this one
Check out this video kzhead.info/sun/ebKghNJ-qmmcaKc/bejne.htmlsi=29yekpv5zkVp4e09
A ring feeds a socket from both ends. 26A on an unbalanced ring can be say 8A on one leg and 18A on the other. With two 24A Quickwires on each leg then all is fine. The four way Quikwire is two connection at each end with a bar inside the Quickwire internals connecting the two pairs. You are assuming the bar between is 24A. Quikwire need to clarify. If 32A, all is fine.
A double socket is rated a total of 20A from both sockets. Yes. If you see that two 13A appliances may, or will, be plugged into a double, it has to be two singles. If the ring cable is rated at 21A then that is fine with a 32A mcb by the regs. I would drop the mcb to a 25A from 32A to be sure.
If you pull 13A out of both sides of a double socket under a continuous load you’re overheating that socket and causing damage anyway.
It's more of a standards issue a junction box rated at 32A must be capable of coping with a 6mm sq cable.
Yes. Next? (Max number of spurs must not exceed number of points on the ring tho, an often forgotten rule)
You can have a ring, a j-box then a spur cable to a socket. As many as you like.
@@johnburns4017 not when i was trained in the late Triassic, maybe this reg has been removed or wait, yes a j box counts as a 'point', maybe?
still doesn't sit well
@@TheChipmunk2008 It is better as the ring's current runs through the j-boxes not the terminals on the rear of the sockets. So 32A does not run through the socket.
@@johnburns4017 wrong
4:30 LOL! STICK IT UP YA JUMPER KEYBOARD WARRIORS LOVE IT!
Does the same principle apply for a wago box with 221 connectors? I believe the 32a connectors are derated to 20A when combined with thier maintenence free box...
What about the new cables with earth wire sleeving, earth sure. Using these new quick connect junction connectors? Especially with the 4 way quick connector block.
strip back the earth sleeving
I recall the Earth conductor is thinner on the new cable, so I'm wondering if it will fit in the Quickwire
Hey, so i tried the earth sure cable in the Quickwire JB and it went in a dream 😊
@@joehammond6119 I think its just the CPC insulation that's thinner on the new earthsure cable.
@@joehammond6119 I think its just the insulation that's thinner.
I may be overthinking this, but if the box is fed from both ends of the ring, and the draw on the spur is 32a, wouldn't each side of the ring split the current in proportion to the placement of the junction? For example, if the junction is in the center of the ring, the max current either side would be 16amps? (This assumes the ring is wired properly and not open.) So the only issue would be if the connections at the junction to the spur can't handle the full current. And finally, what are the actual chances of the spur being able to draw the full 32amps? There would have to be absolutely no loads anywhere else in the ring or the RCD/breaker would trip on overcurrent.
Draw on any spur cannot be more than 26A (two 13A outlets). Draw through the ring cannot be more than 32A. Totally safe.
@@johnburns4017 Thank you for explaining that.
I wouldn't use it on a radial curcuit wired in 2.5mm2, but as you said, current splits at a junction, or so Kirchhoff would have us believe, but I think it would be safe to use on a ring main.
The comment, two spurs can be mm apart on a ring. So, a 5 way Wago rated at 32A is a bus bar. One piece of brass with five slots for individual conductors. Ring conductor in one end. Ring conductor out the other end. Three ways are left in the centre for three conductors. Each one is mm apart. Each way can be a socket spur. The busbar in the Wago takes the ring's current.
In theory- not sure. In practice- unlikely. Three port wago .
@@spankeyspangler Three port Wago for what?
🤣🤣🤣Underrated comment
@@spankeyspangler A five port Wago clearly gives you *_three_* spurs off it. All legal.
Wagos are rated tho, surely your not going to use a 32a rated product for supplying 6 potential 13a plug tops 👀
Johny Sins is now an electrical professor?? what can’t this guy do 😅
He’s had years of practice of breaking into rings though.
@@SME_Stevery funny 🤣
Hi. In minute 1:22 i think the explanation is wrong. Can anyone please explain this further? Does a ring made of 2.5 cm2 behaves as a single 5 cm2? Thanks in advance! Bye!
No because the load is split
With socket ring circuits, it just needs a loose wires connection at a socket and you have two radial circuits on a 30/32A breaker. Considering the low power appliances in the modern home, how about several 20A radial socket circuits for upstairs/downstairs/garage and a 30/32A radial using 4.0mm for the higher power demand for the kitchen?
I have the whole ring on screwless lever Wagos, except into the RCBO or AFDD at the consumer unit. The ring's current only runs through the Wagos. They are in the backboxes. Then a 2.5mm flex from the Wago to the socket terminal, making it easy to push the socket back into the backbox with no stress on the socket's terminals. So no conductor popping out of the terminals due to stress. Win, win!
Whenever I do a rewire that’s how I do them, look at the house and kind of loads they use, then normally 1 20a radial for upstairs sockets, 1x 20a downstairs sockets and 32a 4mm radial for the kitchen, sometimes they have so little plugged in kitchen- mainly older people where it’s a kettle, washer and fridge you could use 20a without issue.
@@richard3004 The Wagos work equally well on radials and rings. You could have just two rings rather than three radials. Or the whole lot on a 4mm 32A ring using Wagos in backboxes, on an AFDD. Bombproof. I did a _whole_ 2 bed flat on a 4mm ring, including the 3kw oven and the Bosch induction hob on a 13A plug. All on one AFDD. It had two circuits, the other was 1.00 for the LED lights, again on a 6A AFDD. The consumer unit was tiny. No Grenfell tower fires there. New tech like AFDDs and Wagos up the safety levels enormously.
Who here hasnt found a broken ring on a eicr due to a poor connection at a socket. These 24amp jbs then have to supply full currant and the fault wont be found till the next eicr. Sorry makes me nervous.
@@ks-hg5voand how's it different to the 2.5mm cable in that scenario.
No earth sleeves?
No need for earth sleeving on these beauties ;)
Not required per manufacturer's instructions. Q for Efixx, how does this work with the new Earthsure, does it work or does the insulated CPC get in the way of the CPC connection, do you have any videos of them taken apart?
@@TheChipmunk2008 As far as we can tell, EarthSure cable 1,1.5 & 2.5mm2 has exactly the same CSA of each of the L,N & E copper conductors as used in standard twin and earth. Therefore, provided it is stripped as per our instructions, it will still work with all Quickwire connectors in our range. However I’d question the logic of using the two together on the same job. Firstly there is no need to sleeve earth when using Quickwire connectors, and secondly stripping normal T&E cable with our strippers is incredibly quick and easy, but when using Earthsure you’d have to completely remove the thinner earth sleeving, and this would mean splaying out the cores to do so, before then aligning them again to fit into a Quickwire JB. It’s possible, but not exactly easy. Personally I think you’d choose to use either Quickwire or Earthsure on any given job, despending on which will save you the most time. And this will vary depending on the nature of the job.
@@quickwire80 so basically you'd have to work around this... thank you for your honesty... I hope this gets checked into ... because both are excellent ideas
(testing would pick up any issues of course)
Just replace 32A breaker with 20A in the 2.5mm ring and do what you want, fix any sockets in any configuration.
Ring circuits!The dark ages
Thing is Mark, without them, all these bitter sparks wouldn’t have much to argue about. Sad, but its true.
As an American electrical engineer, you guys ust scare the shit out of me!! "The ring final socket circuit is an intriguing creation" I would replace the word "intriguing" with the word "insane"!!! The crazy stuff you guys do to save a few pennies on wire is just nuts!!
The ring final circuit has a long history and adds a degree of complexity to testing and inspection
It was a good idea 80 years ago after world war 2 in order to save copper but, it hasprobably had its day now. I prefer radial circuits where ever possible
Banned in Australia 🦘🦘🦘
Love how the UK has absolutely crazy electrical regulations and still insists on stupid things like ring circuits
I've never been a fan of having a double socket on a spur (unless it's from an FCU) in theory (and depending on the reference method) you could overload the 2.5mm cable feeding the double socket without tripping the MCB and yes I know a double socket is only rated at 20A but it's definitley possible say in a kitchen to have 2 high draw devices connected to a double socket, stupid and not sensible but physically possible
Two plugs with 13A fuses = 26A. Clipped direct cable rated to 27A. The socket will overheat first.
@@AndyK.1 that's why I said depends on the reference method, in an insulated wall 20A
Why so few comments?
It was a linked video behind the main review - it's just gone public now.
In the regs it states that a maximum of 27A could flow through one leg of a final ring circuit so how can a 24A rated block be able to be allowed to be fitted? Let’s take an example of one double socket to be installed as a radial circuit and that could potential draw 26A so how Can a 24 A be block be legally allowed, diversity?
Indeed. A double as a spur off the ring could likely be feeding a washing machine and a tumble dryer and pulling 26amps. Don't know why they just don't just rate and build the quickeore to handle 26amps argument solved.
Hi Martin. Are you aware of the minimum CCC for a 2.5 1.5 ring circuit in the good old UK? This is the reason i’ve never lost sleep when in the past i’ve used the older style Wago push ins on a ring
Wonder why WAGO bothered with 32A connectors at all when their smaller rated ones will do...and why this company didn't just up the anti with the link inside their box to 32A and cover all bases and stop any debate?....As it appears the link inside the box in your diagram is able to carry all the current placed on the ring passing through it and all of that from the two spurs all inside a 24A rated box. Still it must have been tested to death and have a BS Number etc... And looks simple and easy to use....Great. Will these boxes take a 4mm cable to extend a radial below floor etc...?
They are designed for use with conductors upto 4mm2, thats more than likely the reason
You can use 6mm with 32A wagos
@@longworth2000 you can, but not in the ones rated to 32 amp
Nobody was as good as me with the ole JB splice 😂
Where the regulations fall short is that they assume all future work will be done by a competent electrician for the lifetime of the installation, but we all know that's just not going to happen. What happens when Mr DIY does a bad socket replacement and de-rates the whole ring, then starts using a 3kW air fryer instead of an oven, maybe while they are granny charging an electric car with a 3 pin plug at 2.4kW?
I trust well made off 30a jb than those things I had 3 of the lighting ones fail won’t touch them again
I'm really curious how. That is very unlikley, what happened!??
All times after using the loop ones on spotlights had to be replaced I didn’t bother using the straight join one took them back to the wholesalers got refunde but haven’t wanted to use them since, as I said first time used and both times failed. I only got them to try them out.
@@mikewhitby2686 Do not buy cheap stuff.
Hmmm, I think you were probably doing something wrong. We test every single unit we make rigorously at our factory before they are sent out. The chances of you having multiple failures like that, honestly. It's just incredibly unlikely. Are you sure you had the strip lengths correct? @@mikewhitby2686
I would just use a 30A j.b.
Do you use Bakelite fittings as well? 🤣
@@johnburns4017 no, just J.B's.
@@merlin5476 Do you still use wirenuts.
@@johnburns4017 no, just J.B's.
Next you’ll be telling us all that you feed your horse on ‘just J.B’s’😮
In reality who is going to pull that much power from a couple of adjacent sockets for a long period of time. You just have to be a bit careful in kitchens.
Yes. Good that we don't use rings here. 😅
You don't know what you are missing.
@@efixxMore then likely they're not missing anything... The sooner ring circuits are banned the better...
@@gloveyourway2000 Yes, they're a Pain in the arse for testing. The risk of an open circuit happening in untested rings (it DOES still happen) is too great. An open in a radial makes itself known instantly when the sockets quit working downstream
@@TheChipmunk2008 Easy to test once you understand rings.
The rest of the world is backwards. A 4mm ring on a 32A AFDD is bombproof and delivers the power multiple radials would.
I hate ring circuits.
Every country has to have one electrical practice that other nations sparkies will look at and laugh at how stupid it is. For Britain that practice is the ring circuit.
3m 29s “Skilled Electrically” young joe 😉
Okay, I see why but it feels so wrong.
Though I like the concept I have no trust in those connectors. Doesn’t help a fault I had to trace led back to one.
They are easy to pull out the conductors. Screw-less connectors have been riven in Germany for decades.
Sorry, but you are totally wrong about the current taking the shortest path. Wherever the high load socket is, current will flow in both directions from the consumer unit.
This is a slly title ring mains use 2.5 T&E which has max current raiting of 21A so of couse a junction box designed for 2.5mm T&E will work. Oh and ring mains suck i for one will no longer be installing them
Designed for the incompetent house basher. Ultimately a fire hazard.
So you don’t use Wago’s or push fit terminals in lighting fixtures?
Haha... just curious as to the basis and thinking behind that? ;)
It is not 1984 any longer.
@@efixx No I work for a large UK pharmaceutical research company as a Electrical Engineering technician. They are banned on our site along with ring main. All lighting is wired in 2.5mm minimum. All sockets fed from mimumum 4mm radials. We dont cut corners. We dont employ house bashers.
@@mikepxg6406 so no control panels on equipment with screwless DIN rail terminals. I first used them on 50kW industrial oven in 1996 and it’s still going strong.
Turned the video off when you were pretending you were dizzy, we are not children. Grow up
Wow - bet it's fun in your house.
That's my favourite bit 🎉
@@quickwire80 Are you the manuf? If so, are they ok with the new Doncaster Earthsure cable with pre-identified CPC?
Oh no, I’m so sorry but it’s quite disorienting going from studio to green screen and back again. I’ll be sure to down my sickness tablets for next time though 🤮
@@joehammond6119 Bald tube, grow up. I expect professionalism from a page such as eFIXX, I also don’t appreciate the threatening tone used.
Simple answer... NO