Antikythera Fragment #2 - #AncientToolTechnology - The Original Dividing Plate?
One thing about this machine that is truly surprising, is just how small the teeth are.
There's a well established theory as to how the tooth divisions were marked out, but employing that process to mark out multiple wheels has forced me to question whether it can reasonably be applied to the Antikythera Mechanism.
So in this video I propose an alternative process of wheel division, using only the non precision tools of the period.
More detail on the specifics of 223 teeth on B1 below...
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The proposition regarding why B1 has 223 teeth in detail:
The teeth of the main drive wheel B1 are accepted to sit outside the calculating train, and so serve the purpose of simply permitting convenient movement of that wheel, via the input crown wheel A1. In that sense any practical tooth number would have sufficed, and by practical I mean any tooth count that would provide a mechanically sound, robust tooth size.
B1 has an approximate outside diameter of 132mm.
200 teeth gives a tooth module of approximately 0.66 - a very chunky and robust tooth, with apex tip to tip of 2.1mm. A very strong tooth, able to withstand the input torque very well. Although it must be said approaching the point of being too coarse from the perspective of fine mechanism control.
280 teeth gives a module of approximately 0.47 - a reasonably delicate tooth form, 1.49mm between tooth tips, but consistent with almost all other wheels found in the device, and so still a reasonable candidate. Perfect for very fine control of the mechanism, but perhaps approaching the size where deformation of the tooth could occur with exuberant input torque from the user.
So assuming no change to the outside diameter of the wheel, any tooth count (and therefore module) in between this range of 200 to 280 would provide a tooth form that is suitable to perform the role of robustly generating movement of B1.
Latest research has the actual number of teeth for B1 at either 223 or 224. However it is highly likely that the number is in fact 223.
If this is the case, then the choice of 223 is remarkable.
Because if we consider all options within the range of approximately 200 to 280 teeth as valid candidates, then there had to be a very good reason to choose that more difficult division candidate over the more obvious options immediately adjacent. ie Why not select 224? 222? 240? etc
My proposition is that 223 was selected out of simple manufacturing convenience. And that the choice strongly indicates the existence of an ancient division method very different to the current theory. ie One that leverages existing counts to propagate them to multiple wheels.
E3 is known with to have 223 teeth to perform its eclipse prediction role on the Saros dial, so that division number was already required to be present on the division tool.
Knowing that any robust tooth would suffice for B1, The Maker would have been able to directly observe that the count of 223, fits nicely into the range of convenient and robust tooth sizes for the role to be performed by B1. It would have been clear that there was no need to perform yet another large division, when a suitable candidate was already present on the tool.
And so the otherwise surprising tooth count of 223 was selected for B1.
Antikythera Fragment #2 - Ancient Tool Technology - The Original Dividing Plate?
One thing about this machine that is truly surprising, is just how small the teeth are. There's a well established theory as to how the tooth divisions were marked out, but employing that process to mark out multiple wheels has forced me to question whether it can reasonably be applied to the Antikythera Mechanism. So in this video I propose an alternative process of wheel division, using only the non precision tools of the period. Please enjoy!
How do you not get overwhelmed by knowing that you got to cut so many gears by hand? Or are you going to use the lathe for the rest?
I've been wondering about this problem ever since watching your Antikythera series, blessed closure! Thank you!
I would think that it would be absolutely amazing if you have academia reconsidering their current theories as a result of your build. I know that others have endeavored to rebuild this machine, but your approach shows that you're putting a great deal of thought into the practicality of the creation. Keep up the good work, the creation of the device and the history you're actively engaging in is inspiring.
well when you consider the forfathers of math and geometry were Greeks and we know they had a very deep understanding of geometry, and could consistently mark out the complex angles with just compasses and over lapping circles of varied sizes. and for the makers of the device to already have the skills and knowledge to produce it then it would be insane to think they didnt have their own device for dividing gears used in producing other devices that lead them to making the antikythera mechanism, the people involved must have been early clock makers in order to develop the skills and technology used in its creation. One does not simply wake one day and build something out of thin air without the knowledge, resources and infrastructure needed to make it. so i think you are well justified in your assumptions of the tools they may have used
Quick question....did the ancient greek have files? what did they use instead?
I'm starting to get the feeling you might actually finish this thing! ;) excellent as always, and I think you're spot on with what you propose -- if it were me, after having laid out and cut the first small gear, I know I'd be looking for alternatives and fast!
Definitely! Cheers mate :)
_'This Old Antikythera',_ I'd watch that series 😀
Work on your bike or something..
Have you considered making an actual paper or essay about this? Pretty sure insights like those in this video would get published, especially from such a novel angle.
KZhead videos might very well be the best medium for this type of thing. It might be nice for an archaeological journal to link here.
Paul Murray it would be fascinating to hear someone who is an expert on ancient Greece and their technologies weighing in on matters like this
I'm with Paul. If only scientific journals were 1/10 this clear and concise college papers would be a lot easier.
If my optics or electromagnetism classes were as clear as this, I'd have a 4.0
This videos contribution to the greater body of knowledge on the topic is easily the framework from which an academic thesis could be made.
I think the dividing plate is a likely tool for someone to come up with in that time period. Who ever built the mechanism did this type of work daily and not as a one of for someone who asked for it. Working daily for years in any trade will inspire a craftsman to make tools to make his work easier,the same way it has forced you to consider alternative ways to approach a problem. Awesome work,I enjoy this series very much
I'm entirely convinced by your argument. We like to apply our modern standard to the artisans of the past, and then it becomes easier to dismiss incredibly complex procedural advancements as implausible. Simply put, clever people will always find ways around the technological limitations of the day. Naturally, we are biased to think of now as "better," or more "advanced," simply because we're here. Tomorrow, we'll have yet another new advancement, and it may reduce another piece of tedium, but it will only be an improvement to our method- and not to us. We didn't always have a button for π. Archimedes used the method of exhaustion. It worked.
A perfect example that the beauty in engineering isn't just in the aesthetics, you really do have a gift and your videos are beautifully crafted too.
My sunday morning is realy starting out great , watching a clickspring video.
I love that you took the time to make a dedicated straight-edge for the markings. Shows your magnificent attention to detail.
Ignaz Kevenaar agreed, and the practicality of marking out the ring numbers made it really satisfying
Yea, that section was soothing to my OCD.
Yeas. And even his tools are beautiful. Heck, the tools he uses to make tools are beautiful.
I am a master machinist and I will tell you few people have earned my respect like you have - especially in the way you work with simple tools to achieve such results. And Thank for your passion!!!
Thanks very much for the kind words Craig, much appreciated :)
i didn't read all 740+ comments so somebody else may have said this but a huge benefit this would present is the ability of the "master" designer to offload repetitive tasks to apprentices. suddenly you go from having to do almost 40 gears yourself to making sure the apprentice can accurately use a jig you made and follow instructions, allowing you to focus on tasks which require your skill and knowledge while simply checking the gears for fit and finish later.
one has to wonder why youtube doesn't recommend videos like this instead of the dumb "viral" crap hogging all the views. This is a brilliant channel, and i love every video that has been put on it.
Actuually, during the ancient times in Greece there were magnifying lenses made from naturally occurring quartz crystal. They would first chip away the crystal to the approximate shape of the lens and then rub it against larger stones to bring it to the final shape. I have seen such lenses in many museums in Greece and many of them are still in working condition and generally pretty clear.
Sounds expensive
That's true but it doesn't account for the benefits of jigging nor does it account for the need for precision tools.
It's crazy how much we already had figured out, even if crudely
In the Idaean cave in the 80s two crystal lenses were discovered and contextualised to be from the time of the Antikythera mechanism, other bronze Age lenses from the palace of Knossos in Crete dated from 1400 B.C have been discovered. Sure, lenses would have been time consuming, or potentially unnecessary instruments to produce for use by the craftsman, but inferring the Antikythera mechanism had great significance to those who commissioned/used the machine, it may be reasonable to assume the maker had such technologies at their disposal. Especially considering the craftsman could potentially have had access to such lenses as the island of Antikythera neighbours Crete. Who knows. Great video as always.
@ Margaret.Thatcher I thought you had experience with iron not brass
I'm in hospital recovering from two surgeries over the past days and have been binge-watching your clock-making series since. And just as I finished it a new video popped up :) Wonderful timing Chris and thanks for making my stay so much more bareable :) You're one hell of an artist!
Mario Good luck with the recovery bro
Thanks so much mate!! Really appreciate it
Having spent three weeks in hospital after a major spinal op, the first totally confined to bed (including a bout of peritonitis ...) I can well imagine the tedium you went through ... sadly, this was pre-internet ... so I slowly was going mad ... Hope you have fully recovered, and back home, with no serious complications ...
Hey man, how did those surgeries go? Hope you're alright 1 year after them :)
Well, that jig is just genius. I always marvel at how people came up with such things and here I am so proud of myself just figuring out that if something's too small to see with the naked eye, you just scale it up and work from there.
you are an extremely clever dude...I love your work/videos... there is something about watching you work I find soo therapeutic and I'm always exited when you release a new video... I've literally watched all of your vids
II MODERN II Yes, this guy seriously makes me rethink my own perceived intelligence! Very therapeutic indeed!
II MODERN II same 😀
I just feel like crying... this guy is a giant...
You need to be a public educator. This project is worth a PhD, no question.
Cris, I love this series! It's one thing to wander through a museum and dream how these things or done, or have a docent/professor explain it, but your videos are a delightful alternative.
Terrific to have you watching John :)
I was wondering what the flat surface on the center pin in the diving table was for, seeing that ruler lay flat against it was surprisingly satisfying. That is one beautiful gear you made.
Martin Tandrup I wonder how he machined it to the exact centre.
Define (quantify) "exact"...
Martin Tandrup: So that the length of the flat equals the diameter of the rod.
One easy way, measure the diameter with calipers (or micrometer), remove material until the remaining piece is 1/2 that, as also measured with calipers. I suspect Clickspring has a set of calipers accurate to 1/10,000th of an inch.
But that would be trial and error and too easy.
Interesting speculation. I think the greeks could have started with their dividers and gone up to dividing plates. There is another way to divide. Wrap a strip of paper around a cylinder and cut it so it is an exact fit. Now divide your strip into N equal intervals. This is done by projecting another strip with the divisions onto our original strip. Wrap the strip back on the cylinder and transfer the marks. This was a method taught in colleges when there was no CAD at all. It is more accurate and much faster than the walking divider method. Who knows. Maybe they made dividing plates by the strip method and then used plates to mark as you did. Lovely project. I've been reading up on Antikythera and I think it is properly an orrery.
Chris...your workshop Nobility man! No question about it, never seen such tenacious and relentless pursuit of the perfect whatever it is I'm making right now!!!!!
this is simply incredible, the effort you put into your projects. I sometimes wonder whether the internet is more education or distraction. your videos make me forget all the distracting stupid bs out there and make me really really glad to live right now and to have access to such incredible content. there are no words to express my gratefulness to you! thank you!
Terrific to have your support mate :)
Clickspring is my favorite on KZhead. I tell as many people about this channel as I can; and I love explaining this mechanism to people as well. The history and wonder is great! As well as the craftsmanship! ❤❤
As if recreating the mechanism alone isn't enough, every step you are trying to recreate the PROCESS. I am beyond impressed. Thank you for sharing this.
the video just started and I'm already excited!
My jaw is frequently open watching the genius of Chris and just pure elegance of his approach and thinking.
This is what happens when a master tool maker makes a tool to make a tool to make a tool etc.
Please upload more! Great as always
Thanks Chris, really enjoying this
Awesome video, Chris! I love the attention to detail and extreme craftsmanship.
I'm in awe everytime I watch one of your videos
I can't imagine the amount of work off camera that this thing takes. Nice work!
Brilliant, as always, Chris!
The sonar ping sound effect was perfect. Well done.
Excellent! Jim
very interesting, loving the depth you are going into explaining and theorising on the original construction methods :D
Absolutely fascinating!
Great job. Thanks for the effort.
Faxcinating as always. I think my heart skips a beat when I see that a new video has been posted!
I really appreciate the care you put into making your shop-made tools looking nice in addition to being functional
Your craftsmanship is amazing
This series is riveting. An absolute gem.
Your job is absolutely fantastic. Keep it up !
Thank You Chris, Respect.
I love watching your videos as the technique you are demonstrated can be used in other applications. Keep up the fantastic work. cheers mate
Sunday morning and another video. Great!
Excellent stuff as always!
Amazing as always, new Clickspring video is always exciting :)
every video blows me away, your content is very captivating.
Amazing video as always! Thank you for taking the time to make them!
This is next level. Astonishing.
How proud your children will be of you :) Thank you again for your marvelous job and hard effort.
Excellent theory to bygone days engineering problem solving. A history class and an engineering master class in one channel. Very interesting content.
WOW! mind blown..such level of detail,and skill.
Brilliant, both in technology and in the sharing!
an incredibly simple solution to a complex problem. impressive sir! keep it love. love these videos.
The work of a genius. Both the original builder and the people who worked out how it was done.
Once again you seem to have brilliant solutions to these problems along with great skill with the file. Fascinating. Regards.
always in awe of your projects!
Cheers Michael :)
Everything you do just reeks quality and precision. I love it.
cant wait for this whole series to be done!
And the day is 1000x better. Keep going man!
Incredible, perfect start to my day.
Nice and interesting angle on the marking method! Cool!
Clickspring, I've just recently discovered your channel, and I am enjoying it so much. I have always admired the antikythera mechanism and wanted to know more about it. Thank you so much for these videos!
This is amazing and I cannot get enough of these complex tasks completed with simple tools.
Brilliant insight- and of great utility to fabricators confronting unrelated challenges.
Cheers, Chris! As per usual, you've delivered a beautifully presented work of art which I thoroughly enjoyed.
Chris! Amazing project. Wishing you lot of strength over the coming months. Huge respect!
To say that I am impressed with your patience, your meticulous attention to detail, your ability to explain things and your skills would be a gross understatement.
Fascinating and therapeutic all rolled into one entertaining video, many thanks for these.Lots more gear teeth to hand file yet !
Another a bit of quality content,loving it!
Brilliant solution!
Your creativity in solving the issues that come up in a build like this is very impressive. Great work. I cant wait to see the completed unit.
Subdividing the circumference into 6 equal parts is easy as the dividers just need to be set to the radius of the circle. I'd try to base as many of the subdivisions on that fact as possible. Even number subdivisions can also be made by drawing a line between two points and creating a perpendicular bisector which will bisect the arc perfectly at the halfway mark.
Seriously brilliant!
NEED more videos! love your series. watched every video at least 3 times each waiting on next episode
I loved your build series of the clock, but what I love most about you and your channel is when you can't fully do a task, you proceed to build your own tools, such an inspiration.
Love the extra tool you made Chris. Keep well mate take care lee.
thanks again, for showing the basics of what we know now. so cool as always.
Outstanding workmanship and thought process. This is a wonderful channel to watch and this project one of the best that I've seen in many years! Well worth the recognition!
Your video and all the elements are as beautifully, intricately made as are your crafted thoughts and tools. Bravo for such a delightful watch. Amazing new thoughts and I'll love to see the developments and advance your ideas as you continue.
really enjoying your channel! Despite religiously watching about 15 channels yours is the first and only one I have decided to back on patreon! Thanks and keep up the great work!
That was incredible, I always wanted to learn how to make gears, and this has just blown my mind.
Awesome as always! Excellent critical thinking on the subject as well! Soo look forward to the rest of this series and how exciting what you are fostering is! Thank you!
Simply Amazing work, cant wait to see more.
This channel is one of a kind. Bravo
wonderful, simple and very logical approach. Ancient Greeks also had Heron's Pantograph, a device that used large scale templates to accurately copy/reproduce smaller duplicates.
A good jig theory and very plausible. Well done.
How could anyone dislike this beautiful video?
Historians and archaeologists can speculate pretty accurately on how things were made, but it takes someone actually trying it to see why things would or wouldn't work. Really love the content, as a CNC machinist it can be easy to let computers and automation do the hard thinking, so it's always great to watch Chris work
As always Chris - your patience and precision is amazing. Thanks for sharing.
Man, I am never anything less than captivated and impressed when I watch one of your videos. Even having no idea what machine you are talking about just watching you meticulously reproduce ancient technology and the precision you can achieve and how steady your surgeon like hands are at making those parts by hand is nothing short of mind blowing. I have trouble drawing a straight line even using a ruler so watching someone with as much talent is just awe inspiring. Thanks for also taking the time to film and produce KZhead videos showing us and possibly teaching us a thing or two.
Another amazing video! Not just building the mechanism but always thinking how it may have been constructed originally. Can't wait for the next instalment.
Awesome project and way beyond my abilities....Love the vids mate...Well done.
Your videos are sooooo amazing! I love how it all fits in with Greek mathematics of the period.
Terrific video! Thanks.
I could watch this channel all day
Always impressive work on your videos! Loved the geometric aspect of this one! Thanks for sharing!
The handcraft behind these projects are insane!!! Awesome, great work! I love your videos, very informative. Thanks for sharing.
Beautiful work and techniques showed are mind blowing.