Toyota responds to furious Hydrogen car customers who are 'living a nightmare'
Toyota responds to furious Hydrogen car customers who are 'living a nightmare'
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In the case of H2 vehicles, we don't call the buyers "Early adopters", but rather "Only adopters". Sorry for them.
Love it
In 1900 38 percent of vehicles were EVs, 40 percent steam, and 22 percent gasoline. With the invention of the electric starter gasoline cars took favor over EVs that were expensive and had the same problems of today over 100 years later so just because the first one wasn't great doesn't mean they won't get better
@@justinr9753 this is very much true. However the reasons for EVs being dropped was monetary mostly. In case of hydrogen it's cost, reliability, ease of use etc etc. It's 'cleaner' than petrol but doesn't have anywhere near the ease of petrol and yet isn't as straightforward or have the ability to increase self reliance like renewable powered EVs.
Foolish adopters . . .
Or unsuspecting guinea pigs.
wow....the people backing Hydrogen are the same who scream "You Can't Take an EV across America!!" Try driving LA to New York in a Mirai!!
Driving an EV across the U.S. is like hitch hiking - you can do it if you want to bad enough
@@timothykeith1367 If you look ONLY at the Tesla Supercharger network, there are charging stations every 60 miles or so outside high density areas (even in the Dakotas…) on the east-west interstates, and that is improving every month that passes! So, there is absolutely ZERO problem driving an EV across the continent! Your information is VERY obsolete, you should definitely update it!
@@timothykeith1367 No, no it’s not. I’ve driven across the US twice in the past 18 months for work with no problem and no anxiety and that was on the electrify America system which has 1/10 the chargers of Tesla.
We drove our 2012 Model S from Edmonds, WA to NYC and down to Florida and back (8009 miles) in 2014, and it worked because of Tesla's supercharging network, even at a much earlier stage but still very functional.
@@timothykeith1367 We did it in 2014, and would disagree we had a lot of fun doing it in our 2012 Model S.
I saw videos of Mirai owner paying up to 160 $ to refill it at a hydrogen station..... There is no space in the car due to the 3 big hydrogen tank...it s ridiculus
Toyota joint venture with Shell and Chevron for this go figure. If they're getting these people for hydrogen now, imagine later when these thing needs maintenence.
@@saibtsheb5590 I imagine maintenance will be very cheap since there'll be plenty of worthless donor cars to scavenge parts from 😂
They were paying with Toyota’s prepaid credit card, so they weren’t complaining about the refill price. Would like to see an updated video after the card runs out funds.
200 to fill. I have a Mirai
@@saibtsheb5590 China is now shipping an electric bicycle powered by SOLID HYDROGEN. It comes with an electrolyzer the size of a toaster oven that produces Hydrogen at home for refills. Cars will go the same way.
If you look up "Sunken Cost Fallacy" in a dictionary it just redirects you to Toyota.
If Toyota wanted to use hydrogen they needed to take EVs and renewables seriously and start research ages ago. Then when EVs weren't as reliable people may have been tempted to switch over. However they were happy building ICE vehicles and weren't willing to make the investment until it was too late.
Sunken cost fallacy is self driving based only on vision 😂
@@andynguyen144how do you drive my little laugh at his own jokes friend? Vision only? Or do you require a driver cause you are a child and have no license?
@zoransarin5411 you need radar sensors in which his engineers told him. Vision based only is like Irobot vacuums. How is their company doing with all the competition? 🤣
@@andynguyen144 You haven't tried it have you? Not FSD. I mean, you haven't tried strapping radar to your head, closing your eyes are trying to drive? I have. Now the police say I can't drive a car ever again.
"Can't drive a Hydrogen car outside of California unless you have a truck follow you around"... RFLMAO
Uhh, clearly you have no idea the purpose of Toyota and the Mirai. The Mirai is a pilot program that the public can purchase as Toyota develops the technology. It's as simple as that for now.
showering in champagne is cheaper.
Or washing your socks in good booze
Hydrogen never made any sense. They still have electric motors, small batteries and add on life limited, expensive hydrogen fuel cells and composite tanks. Dumb.
Trying to contain the smallest atom with a bunch of bigger atoms.
Hydrogen is insanely expensive and rare.
@@andrewlim7751 Rare? It is literally the most abundant element in the universe...
@@brucetaylor2887 yep, always was a difficult task.
@@oknewell That's less true than you may be thinking. That abundance has an * on it as hydrogen reacts with almost anything so it's not going to be found as just hydrogen. This means you either need to process out that hydrogen or pump it through a very closed system (hydrogen goes where it pleases) into very specialised containment units.
Can't feel too sorry for idiots can we ?
Nope, not in the slightest.
Not at all
No we can't. Like the people that bought the cyber truck. How is that pedal working out for them ? 😂
@@andynguyen144 Tesla's already issued a recall for that problem. What's Toyota doing to help people with Fuel Cell Lemons?
@@andynguyen144that train is never late. The video has nothing to do with Tesla but they have to be mentioned. I swear detractors make Tesla more important than ever. 😂
What is going on with Japan? Slow on EV’s and then chasing solid state batteries and even more illusory, Hydrogen powered vehicles. Get a grip 🇯🇵
As weird as Germany which cancelled all subventions for BEVs because it assumes it can avoid Chinese BEVs this way.
its the oscillations that occur during the change from the old system to the new disruptive one.
Japan still uses faxes. They have a problem letting go of redundant technologies.
Leave Japan alone! They're chasing the unattainable proverbial unicorn! LOL
@@rolex4470 I believe Germany does too.
I have said it before, hydrogen is just another path to keeping some form of ICE vehicle, and delay the shift to electric. It still requires massive transportation of a consumable material to refilling stations to power the vehicle. At best it only offers nominal improvement from the usual ICE vehicle...it is the clean cousin of gasoline.
They only want to keep there Dealership making money with servicing those engine & expensive fuel cell.
Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are electric. The fuel cell generates electricity to run an electric motor. There are hydrogen ICE cars. The Mirai is not one of them.
@@brownro214 That is a good point, I did forget that part. My biggest complaint is that the hydrogen technology still ties refueling to the transportation of a consumable material around the streets to the refueling stations. Add that you still need to consume something to generate the power.
@@brownro214Toyota is actually very proud of their Hydrogen burning engine (Google it) which ofc makes a realistic roaring noise, for all the ICE obsessed folks who can’t manage without the sound of their exhaust. It’s even LESS efficient than a fuel cell, but there are KZhead videos claiming it is the end of EVs…
Let's say 5 % of the light weight vehicles shouldn't be BEVs. Is it a big problem if they are diesel or gasoline? I don't think so!
How much has Toyota lost on hydrogen car?
It has been going on for 10 years. $15,000 on H2 fuel cost + the car cost more to manufacture than the sellimng price.
Toyota joint venture with Shell and Chevron for this. Them oil company gives these people the 15k voucher to fuel up the Mirai. Now that the voucher is over, they're going to collect what they can back from these people.
@@saibtsheb5590 damn, even when going into a new market they still rig things to screw their customers hard.
It is the Japanese government that funded much of this venture. They thought that Hydrogen would enable them to beat the Chinese that were already good at building batteries.
Toyota is doing well financially. The Mirai is a pilot program that the public can purchase as Toyota develops the technology. It's as simple as that for now.
Everyone is laughing at the die hard Toyota fans for hydrogen cars now.
Not as hard as people laughing at EVs. How are those insurance premiums that cost more than the monthly auto loan payment working out for them? 😂😂😂
That’s wrong bro. You speak lies.
@@andynguyen144yep $119 AUD a month insurance cheap as for ev's in Australia, might be in the wrong country maybe those people?
@@pkerry12 119 per month doesn't exist in California. Sticker prices double for ev
@@pkerry12 Thats because they are pushing the real cost onto ICE owners.
The idea that hydrogen, which had almost no production infrastructure, and zero filling stations, would out-compete battery EVs which have bajillions of gigawatts available all over the place, was always ridiculous. All you need to do is add a cheap endpoint charger anywhere there's electricity and you can serve battery EVs. While a hydrogen station costs a million bucks. And you have to find a source for the hydrogen. It's always been a scam for fossil fuel extractors and legacy automakers to delay battery EV adoption.
The Mirai is a pilot program that the public can purchase as Toyota develops the technology. It's as simple as that for now.
Elon called it. A long time ago. “Hydrogen is a fools errand”
As an engineer, I concur. Why use electricity to produce it, then use it to produce electricity over again? That’s a less efficient storage method than electric batteries, due to energy losses in the process.
It's not about efficiency. Almost nobody cares about efficiency. It's about convenience. I don't have to wait 20 hours for mla level 2 charger with hydrogen.
I think this is the first time I have heard Sam emotionally express real frustration regarding stupid people. Words before yes, but there was clear emotion this time. I am not complaining about that, and I agree.
If you go get one of these without doing your research what can we say
Sort of just like fools that bought an EV, right little fella? 😂😂😂🤡🤡🤡🤡
Running costs is always the final factor in tech progression.
To add: the fuel cell is a wear component with limited lifespan.
@@christianvanderstap6257 In a reported case the quote to replace it (after about 60,000kms) was more than the car was to purchase.
@@brucetaylor2887 damn, I didn't even think about that part. I kind of just figured it would be similar to a petrol engine and the fuel tank problems would be rare and fairly inexpensive to change. That's worse than the current battery tech replacement costs, and doesn't even have as long a life.
@@nfzeta128 Current battery tech is getting way cheaper.
@@incognitotorpedo42 yea so hydrogen really lost it's time to be the option for people. It's more complicated and also way behind on research and development.
Hydrogen fool cells 😂
Brilliant!
@@GerthebearBrady.I think Elon said that some time ago. 😂
If you think fuel cells are foolish, just know that hydrogen combustion cars exist. All the downsides of petrol cars with none of the upsides.
Actually there are a lot of upsides to internal combustion hydrogen engines. Zero emissions is one of them.
Toyota's hydrogen car is a scam.
😂😂😂 . Can't afford to refill after buying. 😂😂😂. It's a wrong bet and Toyota will suffer the consequences.
They joint venture with Shell and Chevron to try to put hydrogen and hybrid out there to try to keep fossil fuel relevant
@@saibtsheb5590 Won't work.
It shows more how easy it's to fool people. This time no poor people were fooled though! Maybe if you have 50,000 USD to buy a car, you should look at what you are buying?!
@@leiflillandt1488 Won't buy even if it is USD 5000. If one were to do a search on the net, one will find that it's a big big hassle to refill and it has many drawbacks and limitations. Almost all countries don't even have any hydrogen stations. It won't kick off. It's dead in the water since long long time ago. The only reason those traditional ICE car manufacturers wanted to promote hydrogen is because they can't catch up with EVs.
A fool and his money…
Arealways parted.
And what makes it foolish? I'll wait
@@moabman6803 Buying into any new technology without first doing your own research into its viability.
@@MarksElectricLife Agreed. Good comment
Hydrogen is a terrible fuel. I wrote an article on Aardvark Daily titled "The Great Hydrogen Fuel Myth" way back in 2008 -- but the hype has been strong, mainly from those who don't understand the massive issues that go way beyond simply the price.
Interesting read. Thank you. Surprisingly little has changed over so many years.
2008 was a long time ago. The technology has developed a lot since then.
@@moabman6803 Yeah, that's why we still aren't seeing hydrogen being used as a fuel -- because the basic laws of physics are imutable. It's still an incredibly low-density fuel (from a volumetric perspective), it still presents enormous problems with storage and transport, if it's made from hydrocarbons then that production still creates CO2 and if it's made from renewable sources then you waste about 30 percent of the energy in doing so. Hydrogen will always be too *expensive* to use as a fuel for all these reasons and more. As Mr Scott would say _"ye canna change the laws of physics captain"_
Should have bought a Tesla.
should have bought a corolla
Amen. Lotta happy Tesla drivers out there. World’s best cars.
@@raymondcanessa7208 To expensive for fuel, and too much maintenace. Search Corolla vs Tesla Model 3 (antiquate by today prices, and the Model 3+)
@ultrastoat3298 so happy. Especially with the massive depreciation. How are those model x and s buyers that lost over 50 percent of their value in less than a year 😂😂😂
I know. Wish Hertz would have listened and just bought teslas instead. Oh wait...... the ceo resigned 😂😂
A friend bought a Mirai online after being promised a free rental car. Why doesn't Toyota insist all their dealerships to have a hydrogen fueling stations? The most important aspect of new technologies is infrastructure. That's why Tesla is a winner and other EV makers are fly by night. Tesla's charging infrastructure is second to none
All hydrogen stations in Scandinavia have been closed, a Taxi company in Denmark had to return all 110 hydrogen cars after only a year of driving
What about the safety of those high pressure tanks and fuel lines in an accident? No thanks!
exactly
Meh it's just a bunch of automatic shutoff valves. You have to get squashed between 2 trains to rupture a tank.
The good thing with electricity is that everyone already has that available. A little harder to build a network from scratch with a product (Hydrogen) that is 4 x as expensive.
Why are you comparing hydrogen to other cars? Are you serious? The Mirai is a pilot program that the public can purchase as Toyota develops the technology. It's as simple as that for now. I really can't believe people don't understand such a basic concept.
@@moabman6803 Ok, but why are the owners then left alone? If it is a "pilot program", where is the program? If Toyota sold it to end customers they should at least have an interest in keeping the cars running, or say the "pilot program" has ended and we will buy back the cars.
@runeg286 I don't think they are left alone. The get a pretty long warranty period and free fuel for a while.
It costs $200 to fill up a Mirai. The trick is toyota gives you a $15k credit card to charge, but some owners don't think about what happens when you use up that $15k credit card. For my VW ID4, it costs $15 to fill up 100% at a public charger even though you should charge to 80%.
I just did a quick google for hydrogen filling stations in the UK. There are 15 of them apparently. 6 of which are in and around London. The nearest one to my house is apparently 66 miles away. 🤣
How much does it cost to 'fill the tank', do you know?
@@swanvictor887 60% more than petrol., Of the 14 I found listed 4 were in Universities, 1 on M25 1 on M40, 2 in Aberdeen, a few more around London, Toyota wants everyone to switch to Hydrogen but does not want to install the infrastructure.
wow...that road trip in a Mirai between Aberdeen and London would be tense, wouldn't it lol!@@robertwoodhouse-bm7kt
@@swanvictor887 I've never actually seen a hydrogen filling station or the price they stick on the board. So i did a search and an up to date number is remarkably difficult to find. The best I found was a section from an article on the autotrader site, updated in march 2022, which read: " In the UK, hydrogen costs about £12 per kg, which means a 62-mile (100km) journey in the Hyundai NEXO, for example (which does 0.95kg/100km), will cost around £11.40. An equivalent diesel car (doing 4.4-litres/100km) would cost around £5.81 for a 100km journey (diesel at £1.32 a litre), with a petrol-powered car (5.6-litres/100km) costing around £7.11 for that 100km (petrol at £1.27 a litre)." If you can do better than that let me know.
@@robertwoodhouse-bm7kt why would you. The cars are stupidly expensive to build, the gas is stupidly expensive to produce. So who would buy the cars? Would you pay more to purchase and run an otherwise unimpressive car?
This is not really the fault of the buyers. Toyota brought an unworkable product to market and the buyer trusted them. Toyota gets clean car credits for selling them from the government. Since the fuel itself is less green than 100% coal as it is currently produced, there was a whole lotta deception going on and I think they should have the right to sue, assuming there is legal grounds to do so.
It's probably just another article that came across one or 2 disgruntled owners and deceptively makes it sounds like it's thousands of people. It's today's news.
Toyota is a crap company, working to slow EV adoption since they failed to join in development of EV's.
Toyota are environmental criminals with trying to change the low emission rules & standards around the world!
Plus they took the Japan car industry with them. Poor Japan it is a shame for the citizens to have these people destroy their economy. Even Harley freakn Davidson made an electric motorcycle, Japan? Nothing.
Toyota joint venture with Chevron and Shell, ev will never be their future plans. It'll hurt their partners. Whatever they do, will have to benefit Chevron and Shell.
Toyota = Kodak Toyota bankrupt before 2029
The latest news is that Toyota will seriously develop EVs in collaboration with Huawei!
I was a big Toyota fan. Most of the over a dozen vehicles I’ve owned were yotas. 3 of them were their hybrid models. I was also initially interested in their hydrogen fuel cell Mirai back in 2016. But after doing exhaustive research on the technology, early owner reviews/experiences, and weighing the pros and cons, I ultimately decided to stay away from it and went EV instead. Now an EV only household for nearly a decade and don’t see myself looking back. I switched to the other T brand since Toyota refuse to support the EV market.
2:04 _it's about probably 80% cheaper to drive an electric car than a hydrogen powered vehicle_ *It's actually >93% less expensive.* Real world example: the Toyota Mirai carries 5.65 KG of H2 and gets an EPA range of 357 miles. A KG of H2 in San Diego, where I live, is currently $36, having recently increased from about $13. So the per-mile cost of H2 for the Toyota Mirai is 5.65 x 36 / 357 = 57¢. Meanwhile, my Tesla Model Y has a 75-kWh battery, and has an EPA range of about 320 miles. At the San Diego Gas & Electric home EV charging rate of about 15¢/kWh, the per-mile cost of electricity for my Model Y is 75 x .15 / 320 = 3.5¢; so the Mirai costs literally *>16 times as much per mile* in direct operating cost. And actually I charge for free from my solar array, which of course the HFC vehicle can't do.
Hydrogen is very similar to natural gas. LPG burns so cleanly that the car engine oil does not discolour, seen that on an LPG converted Jeep Commander V8 Petrol.
LPG is half the price of gasoline here in Portugal. Why doesn't everyone drive one, I don't get it.
You can burn H2 in an ICDE modified for H2 combustion. It gets less efficient than a gas ICE. You see , H2 has a very high combustion temperature, so intenal combustion engines run at a ratio 40:1 (gas engine 16:1) The extra oxigen implies extra N2 (atmostpere 78%N2 and 21% O2) estra mass is needed to lower the combustion tempersture (heating the extra mass) This is reqired or the engine will melt. VAlves, pistons have to be reinforced to have acceptable durability. Oil changes had to be more frequent. Higger temperatures produce more NOx wich cause cancer to humans. A bigger catalyst is needed. It is not truth tha exhaust is only water vapor.
@@antoniocruz8083Because, like hydrogen, filling stations are few and far between.
@@philiptaylor7902 NO, not unlike hydrogen. There isn't one single hydrogen station in all of Portugal but near where I live there are around 10 LPG stations. I own 2 LPG cars and I can travel anywhere in Europe only on LPG. I've done long trips on them and I consume half of a gasoline car.
@@antoniocruz8083 That's cool. So you're half way to where we want to be, which is zero carbon. Half's better than nothing.
The only possible good use for hydrogen is in local public transportation buses since it burns cleaner than diesel or gas, but even with busses the fuel price is quite high.
A number of local authorities have abandoned hydrogen buses (Montpellier in France) due to high running costs or difficulty in building the infrastructure (Crawley in the UK) and turned to battery electric.
@@philiptaylor7902 I agree with you that EV public transportation busses are the future and are already being built by BYD and used in Canada and other places. Hydrogen busses do provide clean energy, but the cost of refueling and maintenance are much higher compared to EV's.
@@mauriceharting5877 they would have had to invest a lot more before the EV rise and try to at least mitigate those problems. They only tried to start this hydrogen push to avoid EVs because it's less money for them to switch to EVs from gas.
@@nfzeta128 Yes EV busses are more expensive to buy when compared to ICE busses, but they are quiet and don't pollute and in the cities where they are used that is a big advantage.
Each EV bus costs twice as much as a diesel bus. Yes the EV is very quiet. It also takes 2 EV buses to replace 1 diesel bus because EVs don't have the range to finish the route.
I first heard about Toyota touting the hydrogen fuel cell back in 1996. It's been 10 years away ever since. Even back then seemed unreasonable!
H2 for cars and other light duty users never made any sense. Green hydrogen has been outclassed by battery technology.
"Invested"? You meant "spent".
You mean waste.
Why I will never switch from my EV to one of these new gas cars. 1. Range anxiety - I am used to being on 100% every morning. With a gas car, I might not have enough gas to get to work and have to waste time going to find a fueling Station ⛽️ and spend time fueling up, whilst breathing toxic fumes. 2. Big maintenance problem - After 100k-200k miles you have to swap or rebuild the engine. That’s $10-20k on an old car. This is crazy! 3. Risk of fire - Gas cars have ~100x the likelihood of catching fire compared to EVs. You literally have a full tank of explosive liquid right underneath your back seats. No thank you! 4. Underdeveloped charging infrastructure - Every home has a power outlet. Every AirBnb has one too. No matter how remote. With a gas car, you have to go find special fueling stations ⛽️ instead of charging while you sleep. Sometimes, the nearest one could be 50 miles away! 5. Environmental impact - Did you know it takes about 10x as much mining and pumping to get the oil needed to fuel a gas car over its lifetime than the materials needed to build an electric battery? Insane! 6. Range issues - Did you know that if you turn on aircon, charge your devices in the car and blast the infotainment system, your gas car range can go down by 20% or more?! 7. Cost - The average gas car costs 20% more than a Tesla. It’s just too expensive for mass adoption. Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot. Did you know a gas car loses 35% of its value the moment you drive off the dealership lot. You have to be a real nutcase fan boy to switch to a gas car
I don't know what this is. But whatever makes you feel good about yourself. I mean, you have to be a bona-fide propagandist to spew such nonsense.
BAHAHAHAHA!!!! You're absolutely hilarious little fella! Are you available for children's parties? I can see it now, a bouncy castle, pony rides and the world according to Paulie! 😂😂😂🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
@brucemitchell5637 you saw it too uh? It's even funnier that he got three thumbs up.
Crazy how all his points are true, but still there is so much FUD about EVs paid for by petroleum companies so a large portion of the population refuses to believe it.
Drivers that switch to an EV are more likely to buy an EV again per JD Power. Kelly Blue Book (major US auto website) and consumer reports found the same in other studies. But you always have clowns who like burning thousands of dollars more per year like the two fools above who are probably living in their mothers’ basement and likely the same person with two profiles. Weak little man child…. I love safely driving my family and friends and saving enough money on gas to pay for auto insurance, tires, and the occasional windshield replacement. Kids drove across country many times to school in an EV and apartment living was no problem for them either (more convenient than a gas car anyway)
Way to read an Inside EVs article to your audience 👍🏼 I feel for the people in SF, but in Oakland, where they’re building more hydrogen stations and most of the buses run on hydrogen, this is poopoo. People who bought Mirais over the last few years were early, which sucks and honestly Toyota should have been charging the current price ($10,000-$17,000) from the get go, but the future of Hydrogen is bright. Again, they burned a lot of people for charging luxury prices for an impractical luxury car, but hydrogen will continue to grow with TrueZero, Toyota and other companies
Millennium Reign Energy sells residential hydrogen generators. Their model 100 costs $120,000 per unit makes 2 kg of H2 per day, compresses it to 6,000 psi and uses 48 kwh per kg of H2. At my local electricity price of $0.22 per kWh, that works out to $10.56 per kg of H2. If it works as advertised and reliably, you’d be able to get return on investment in about 50 years.
If everyone is making hydrogen at home as easily as turning on the kitchen sink, why do we need "Refueling Stations"?
If only hydrogen was a great replacement for liquid fuels ... But it's not, which has been obvious for more than a decade.
True. People made their choice aboutg ten years ago.
Yea the first time I heard about it I literally just had to quickly look it up to realise it's not a good replacement and is just worse than renewables. The existence of the fuel cell alone and the fact you're dealing with hydrogen was enough for me. They would have to do something revolutionary to make it not a dead end. Or would have had to start this process ages ago and be far along on efficiency and cost reduction.
Way back in 2011 there was talk of hydrogens cars from Toyota - the Mirai was unveiled a full 3 years before its introduction, so there was much talk about these cars before they were even produced. I was following the production of the GM-Volt at the time, eagerly awaiting its introduction in Australia in 2012 (I did get one, it was great). Every electric car enthusiast knew back then Hydrogen was a dead horse even before deliveries started. How on earth could an expensive fuel based car compete with cars that could simply charge at home with solar on the roof for free? With the volt, if you ran out of electricity, it had a built in generator, so i would also never be stuck if i travelled a long distance. Hydrogen based cars often came up in the forums back then, and were shot down almost instantly due to the countless flaws. Storage, lost of energy in conversions, cost of the fuel, transporting fuel, production of the fuel, leaking of fuel, explosiveness of the fuel, etc... To top it off, they were part electric cars anyway, just with a smaller battery and no ability to plug them in. I cannot believe someone who bought a Mirai was not an enthusiasts and knew of these shortcomings. Early adopters know what they are doing. With my Volt, I knew full well back in 2012 there were very few service centers and almost no infrastructure to charge EV's outside of the home. I had my granny charger and that was it - that was my risk. But I also knew it was definitely the way to go, and electric cars were clearly future. Hydrogen always sounded cool, but the coolness was less than skin deep with all the shortcomings - it was simply a replacement for petrol. To me, charging at home surely could not fail. It is not possible for someone to pick hydrogen over electric and not know the difference and the risks.
Yep, hydrogen cars as currently envisioned are just electric cars with extra steps using a power source that's harder to store, attain, and maintain.
@@nfzeta128 it was the same then as it is now... nothing has changed. their have been advances in creating hydrogen to bring the price down, but even now it cannot compete with petrol and definitely not compete with electricity which is made for free on my house roof.
That's great. Glad you enjoy waiting 15 hours to recharge your battery.
@@moabman6803 charge while you sleep for $2 pay $150 to fill your car. Options, options everywhere...
@xiaowei1 Hydrogen technology is still on its early stages. It's in no way meant to be competitive to EVs just yet. The Mirai is a pilot program car. It's simply made to be a car people could buy and Toyota could learn more from observing some of the public using it.
Hi Sam, thank you. One undeniable fact that each day becomes clearer and more compelling in favour of EV is no longer being dependent on oil companies. Right now, in Australia, you can solar power your home, put in a battery, and refuel your car, totally independently. Home batteries $15,000 now $3,000 solar panels the same with increased efficiency, sure if you live in a unit, not as easy but it's still early days, developers will start building with these features. Toyota will, if not already, realise hydrogen is trying to reverse the stampeding herd towards EV, nothing effects sales like class actions and really angry customers. Exciting 12 months ahead. Great posts
You do know that an EV takes oil right? Have you changed the oil on your EV yet?
I have Rooftop Solar and charge Electric Car from my Rooftop Solar. Solar is for Free. Solar Panels are Cheap. 50 Dollar a Panel Thats 2 packets tobacco.
The whole idea is stupid from a customer point of view. Cleaner air? Sure. But even if it’s completely adopted you just exchange big oil for big hydrogen. Electric isn’t just cleaner than gas it can come from any source. Most charging will be done right at home.
Hydrogen can also come from any source and from home buddy
Toyota et al really failed on the infrastructure side. When Tesla started out, they saw that the lack of charging infrastructure was a barrier to EV adoption, and they said hey, our customers will need charging infrastructure, so we will build that infrastructure, and they went ahead and built the best charging network in the USA. Toyota should have done something similar with hydrogen. Sure, hydrogen stations are expensive to build, but you know, pick a hub city that you're going to target for hydrogen vehicle sales, make sure that one city is well provisioned with stations, and nearby cities have a few, then you can have significant sales in that area, and it's a practical option for some people. Build on that. But just selling the cars and not making sure one way or another that customers will have good access to filling stations is just stupid.
Hydrogen stations are ridiculously expensive, more to the point, the cost of creating the Hydrogen is ridiculously expensive.
Sure the cars, stations, fuel are ridiculously expensive, inefficient, don't last well, have safety issues but what they really needed was more stations.
@@brucetaylor2887- Makes no sense to add more costly, less efficient, less convenient hydrogen refueling infrastructure for hydrogen fuel that was always going to be many times more costly to produce than clean, renewable electricity delivered to our vehicles where they are normally parked, mostly through already existing wires.
Why are you comparing hydrogen to other cars? Are you serious? The Mirai is a pilot program that the public can purchase as Toyota develops the technology. It's as simple as that for now. I really can't believe people don't understand such a basic concept
@@moabman6803 take your meds, buddy.
They definitely should sue Toyota. Toyota delivered a dysfunctional product. If an Apple laptop would unusable after half a year, it would be reason to sue. Toyota is an established brand, from which the public may expect a proper usable product.
The title indicates that the video will discuss how Toyota is responding to the furious customers, but that response is not discussed unto 8:30 in the video. As far as I know, in journalism the main point of an article/report is usually addressed at the very start, but Sam decided to "bury the lede" more than 80% of the way into the video.
The latest EV made by China can travel 700 miles on a single charge. An ICE can't even come close..
700 miles on their rating system or 700 real miles?
@@justinr9753 that's rating system. The real world miles are around 620.
@@nfzeta128reminds me of the 500 mile range cyber truck 😂
@@andynguyen144 well no one took Elon seriously with his bluffs. The guy is known to exaggerate. Tesla pretty much made it in spite of him, rather than because of him. Though he does know to invest in industries heavily subsidised by government and focused on future industry. So with enough money it's going to pay off after a few tries.
You really want a Chinese EV? I'll say something nice at your funeral. If Tesla can't build a 700 mile car you really think China can?
Toyota hydrogen fuel = Porsche synthetic fuel = $CAM$
Porches synthetic is not a scam.. they tell that it will be available only for Porsches and it costs over 6€/liter. In EU it may be considered as carbon neutral, if the car refuses to use regular gasoline. They promised to sell new gas cars still in 30's, and synthetic gas for track days. It will just be really expensive hobby for few enthusiasts. 😊
For Toyota to have a chance of making hydrogen a possibility they would of had to do what Tesla did when launching the electric car ( modal S ) instal the infrastructure to allow you to drive the car. It’s no good relying on outside companies because they would need to make a profit from the start. And that wouldn’t happen because of to few cars. I’m sure it may work in the commercial sector but as yet not in the private sector
Why are you comparing hydrogen to other cars? Are you serious? The Mirai is a pilot program that the public can purchase as Toyota develops the technology. It's as simple as that for now. I really can't believe people don't understand such a basic concept
I'm watching from Denmark (a small country in northern Europe). There used to be 3 H2 fuelling stations in the country, but they are all closed (in 2023) due to lack of demand. There was a total of 136 commercial H2 vehicles, mostly taxis and 10 privately owned H2 vehicles in Denmark. In comparison about 7% of the 2.7M cars in DK are already EVs and more than 50% of all new cars sold last year were EVs. I still hear people claim that there is a future for H2 cars here, but this sounds to much like science fiction to me. I have a hard time finding any scenario, where a battery EV would not be an option, but a H2 car would.
If everyone is making hydrogen at home as easily as turning on the kitchen sink, why do we need "Refueling Stations"?
@@Brad_FallonWith the same logic: Why do we need superchargers when we can change at home? Or Mr./Ms. Everybody must have a very hard time "turning on the kitchen sink"😅
Toyota wasted billions on the H2 pipe dream. Instead of taking those billions and putting them in a proper EV cars and charging infrastructure, and better Manufacturing facilities for EV.
Toyota illustrates the old Maxim that you can't expect someone to understand something if their salary depends on their not understanding it. They were paid billions of dollars by the Japanese government to develop hydrogen as an alternative to electric vehicles because the Japanese government was paranoid about industry dependence on Chinese supply chains. That is actually the origin of all this nonsense, a dust up in the China Sea between Japanese military and Chinese commercial vessels, resulting in China at least temporarily stopping their supply of hybrid battery components to Japanese industry. This terrified the government so they opened bids for the development of an alternative technology, and the hydrogen lie was born.
Why would hydrogen be the propellant for a car when all you need are 4 wheels, an electric motor or two, a big battery and a computer to link it all together. IN OTHER WORDS, AN EV! If you believe in hydrogen powered cars, you're a very foolish person like the ex CEO of Toyota and his sidekick for instance.
Do you know anything about cars? Seriously
It was a chicken-or-egg situation. Some countries did take hydrogen seriously, and filling stations are part of the infrastructure, thus are permanently filled. It’s just a missed opportunity that never came true, like fusion…
The problem with hydrogen is it doesn't compress very well. But you can put it in a tank with some material that will absorb the hydrogen. And then it will release it. The only problem is that this is the only working method of storing hydrogen that actually works. And the material to absorb the hydrogen is called an oxidizer. This particular oxidizer is very good at making things go boom! So much that it's illegal to own.
I wouldn't have bought electric if I wasn't really optimistic about the future of charging, of battery replacements, of making my own energy, a universe of mix and match parts to fit your every energetic need. What the hell would you have to look forward to with hydrogen? The cars are expensive as hell way more than a lot of evs, and charging is a unicorn
A expensive unicorn (more so than even petrol). Then so far there are cases of them crapping out at 60,000kms driven and quotes more than the car to replace the fuel cell. That they sold the few dozen seems incredible at this point.
Fascinating to see EV users using the same arguments against hydrogen as Ice users use about EV s😂
@@user-it7lf7kk8m yes because people can still observe reality. A lot of EV complaints are misguided and those rather apply to hydrogen. The battery complaint was the most valid and even that has been worked out and hydrogen is literally worse in that area while the fuel cells don't last anywhere as long as the batteries do.
You have to look at markets individually. Australia hardly used diesel cars, but in Europe they are the majority of cars. Europe is full on rolling out hydrogen filling pumps at stations across Europe. You can pretty much drive anywhere with hydrogen maps to show you the nearest filling station.
Hydrogen is more or less similar to NGV only without the hype. In fact H2 is processed from NG now. Hydrogen is extremely dangerous compared to NG or petrol. Heard of Hinderberg or Hydrogen Bom?
Japan is controled by US and US is controled by OIL corps,,do the math 😂
Hydrogen is fools hardy initiative
5:15 that is due to the laws of thermodynamics, expanding a gas cools it down - and this is what happens when putting fuel into a hydrogen car.
There’s 18 True Zero Hydrogen stations in SoCal. They all charge $36 per kg of hydrogen. That is equivalent to $36 per gallon of gas. A Mirai has 355 miles of EPA rated range with a 5 kg fill up. A Prius has a 644 mile EPA rated range with a 10 gallon fill up. Neither of them will actually come anywhere near close to meeting those numbers, but it shows you that 1 kg of hydrogen is roughly equivalent to one gallon of gas. Who wants to pay $36 per gallon and have no infrastructure to road trip? H2 is DEAD.
Make your own hydrogen at home. It's easy and safe!
@@Brad_Fallon It's far far away from being safe...
Jai Hind. Toyota may soon face an Overcapacity of Hydrogen vehicles
Send to junkyard for scrap.
Hydrogen is a synthetic fuel and so really can't be cheaper than the energy required to produce it, which is (today) triple the energy your are going to get out of it when your car "burns" it. Not to mention that today's hydrogen sources all come from hydrocarbons -- you can think of it as pre-burnt gasoline (or methane) from which the carbon is burned off ahead of time and the hydrogen is set aside to be burned later. It can be made from water, but there again the energy cost is triple what you get out and it is just way cheaper to recharge a battery than it is to make hydrogen. HOWEVER, there might be a distant economic future with surplus free electricity wherein, storing it as hydrogen is better than just dumping it or turning of the solar panels. This may happen because solar collection in summer may be triple what it is in the winter. In order to have enough power in the winter, many, including Tony Saba, think that we will overbuild solar to compensate for this (and the high cost of batteries) and we might at peak times of the year or even most of the year end up with several times more solar electricity than we need. Under those circumstances, then it matters less that making hydrogen is inefficient and there might be some future for energy storage as hydrogen for some needs like aviation, long haul shipping and maybe some cars. So, sure dead for now, but probably best not to write it off in 2070, when we see how things shape out. Needless to say, your 2024 Toyota Mirai is unlikely to be of much use to you in 2070.
"Surplus electricity" is a silly concept. There are many ways electricity can be stored off peak. It is, by definition, a costly inefficiency which is even now bein wipe out as battery storage becomes (much) cheaper and other methods capture it. The guy who pushed this "surplus energy" was the founder of Nikola... the convicted fraud. Regards using H2 for shipping when we have LNG carriers powered by LNG today seems complex and expensive in an industry that is intolerant of high fuel costs. Regards using H2 in aircraft... recall that in addition to its other many failings, H2 is Very bulky. Not good in a commercial airliner. H2 accidents would also be a bit too much of a risk.
I think Hydrogen has potential vs EVs. In Europe, they had roof panels that instead of creating electricity (which is not very efficient), use generated electricity to split water into Oxygen and Hydrogen. So instead you get Hydrogen from the panels instead. This means you will also has to have tank buried underground to store the hydrogen. So if this catch up, Hydrogen cars may be a thing.
The case for hydrogen fuel cell technology is with commercial long haul trucking and mining operations. The refilling times, energy capacity and much lower weights compared to battery electric trucks make it a potentially far better alternative. There are difficulties but in all reality, successful fuel cell technology is what electric transport is going to need. Batteries will never be able to achieve the dominance that you all lust for EV's to command; Fuel cell technology break through with electric motors could deliver the winning combination of range, energy density, fast refueling, reduced weights and far cheaper electric cars. While the infrastructure for hydrogen is lacking, eventually increased charging of EV's, especially charging within the space of an hour is going to stretch the electrical system beyond it's capability. The entire grid will need massive upgrades everywhere.
Thats why Ill never touch a regular Toyota. They dont care about no one but their profit. The economics of Hydrogen will never match an EV. Same goes for a Hybrid or Plugin Hybrid.
Sam you’re normally very emphatic. Have a little sympathy for the well meaning and environmentally conscious pioneers who ventured into what they hoped and believed would be the path to a green future. I too am a clear EV evangelist but I respect our brothers and sisters who wanted hydrogen to be a viable path; it has become clear what is the most sensible path forward now and as people make the switch let’s all display empathy rather than schadenfreude and let’s get EV mobility moving in a big way and stop burning stuff!
The problem is that every hydrogen proponent I have met online wants to burn down EVs so I’m with Sam in having no empathy.
@@FriedChairsbelieve me I see the exact same thing but not one of the professed hydrogen proponents I’ve ever met online have ever been near a hydrogen car; they are just spreading FUD. The actual real bona fide hydrogen car owners are rare as hens teeth; I’ve never spoken with one and I do feel for them
Saw a hydrogen car for sale in Oklahoma for 1/10th the blue book. but you would have to tow it to California!!
They didn't get suckered into it. They made a decision based on numbers. Like my daughter, she always planned to dump the car when the card ran out.
Betamax vs. VHS Looks like VHS is winning all over again.
Nope, this time the superior product is winning. Hydrogen would be more popular (like VHS) if they showed a porn movie on the video monitor while refueling.
Not exactly... Betamax was technically superior to VHS on at least a number of dimensions. HFCEV are inferior to BEV on ALL dimensions!
@@brownro214 Depends on what you define superior is. Refuelling a FCEV takes minutes compared to charging for hours for a BEV.
@@st-ex8506 See my follow-up response.
@@st-ex8506 Refueling a FCEV takes minutes compared to charging for hours for a BEV.
how is your electricity made? uranium? fossil fuel? lpn? coal?
Hydro,wind,solar,nukes 😂
Source Billions KW percentage Natural gas 1,802 43.1% Coal 675 16.2% Nuclear 775 18.6% Renewables (total) 894 21.4% Coal is decresing rapidly as renewables grow. All new powerplnats projects are in the renewable category. With this combination ev are way cleaner than ICE. It take only 13,500 miles of driving for the EV to have equal grenhouse gases emisions to an ICE car. Long time ago it was 30,000 miles, the droped to 20,000 , and now only 13,500 miles. This is done due to the way battery packs are manufactured. Of course once that amount is passed the ICE car keeps polutingm more, and more, until it is retired.. An ev battery pack las more than 300,000 miles or about 2 ICE cars combined milleage, so it should never be compared one to one. LFP nbatteries last for 500,000 miles, and CATL has now batteries that last 1,000,000 million miles(slightly more than 6 ICE cars) H2 always leaks. H2 leaks when they reach the upper atmosphere produces chemical compounds 11X worse than greenhouse gases.
By my rooftop solar system.
I have energy from fusion reactor with converters on my rooftop
No it's from trolls running on Tiny mice treadmills
If Toyota was serious about hydrogen they'd be building hydrogen stations as fast as they could, building out the infrastructure, like Tesla did with the Superchargers.
Exxon has or is building a hydrogen plant in Texas. The US Infrastructure bill provides funding for 9 more hydrogen plants. The plan is for these plants to be completed in 10 years, expect 12-15 years at best. Even after building these plants there must be a distribution system set up for drivers to fill up their cars.
If everyone is making hydrogen at home as easily as turning on the kitchen sink, why do we need "Refueling Stations"?
copy and paste Tesla nonsense: Cybertruck can't even handle a CAR WASH! | MGUY Australia
Nonsense. It has the overall dimension (or smaller) than other pickups, being ICE or a Hummer ev.Haters are not wise people. Hate blocks all thinking.
If you believe ANYTHING MGUY Australia says, then I have a bridge to sell you! The guy is the most ridiculous of all EV-haters I have come across.
Hydrogen/air mixtures are explosive in 5% to 90% concentrations and it burns with an almost colorless flame. It is the 2nd smallest gas molecule (Helium is smallest) and will leak from the fuel supply system unless expensive design/assembly measures are used (do you really want to use aerospace grade designs/assembly on cars?). It has poor energy density when stored as compressed gas and in liquid form it must be kept at cryogenic temperatures (i.e, heavy double wall, vacuum-insulated tanks must be used). Otherwise it's an ideal fuel for cars/S. 🙄
Hydrogen is the smallest atom! The only substance it will not seep through is diamond/grahpine! Exposure to it at high pressures turns many metals brittle AND it is Notoriously explosive! F-ing greatest idea !😊😅
@@jackdbur Yes, hydrogen is the smallest atom, but in its gaseous or liquid form it's a diatomic molecule that is a little bigger than the Helium molecule, which is mono-atomic. In the company I retired from, hydrogen was used in its liquid and gaseous states as fuel for rocket engines. There are metal alloys that are resistant to hydrogen embrittlement, such as nickel based alloys, but they tend to be expensive and hard to machine. The reason it's used in rocket engines is its high specific impulse when combusted with oxygen.
Wow, where are the bikes sold? In 2018 a patient was filed for dry hydrogen. The process bypasses compressing hydrogen. The hydrogen particles are placed on a metal hydride strip. Kinda of like a VCR cartridge. The hydrogen attaches to the strip’s magnetically. The hydrogen is released using a laser to change the metal hydride polarity. The hydrogen cartridges can be recycled after 100 plus recharges. The cartridges can be stored in very low and very high temperatures. The last I read about this process they are working on scaling to meet potential demand.
Classic case of the saying, “You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.”
Green Hydrogen starts having any economic chance when it can be produced when electricity is free. For most grids that will be when solar & wind have fully displaced fossil fuels and there is overproduction built to reduce the amount of expensive storage required. The thermodynamics of splitting water probably mean it would still be fairly expensive. SO its uses are probably where it has margin, perhaps as feedstock for synthetic jetfuel, as an industrial input, as a mix or to supersede "natural" gas. Apart from jet fuel, there may be some case for using it in trains where biodiesel isn't suitable or for Australia's particular large long range trucks: Road Trains. Important for the transition, a bit niche but coming more to the fore over the next decade. Unlikely for small vehicles without some surprising new technologies and after any required infrastructure has matured.
In terms of adoption curve, hydrogen car can be compared to GM's initial attempt at electrical cars rather than Tesla. It was in California as well. It ended with GM bought back all electrical cars sold and scraped all. Good thing for Toyota is that there is really not that many units involved in case of a buy back.
The Mirai is a pilot program that the public can purchase as Toyota develops the technology. It's as simple as that for now. I really can't believe people don't understand such a basic concept. Toyota has a totally different business model than gm ever has.
There is simply too much infrastructure to replace for an alternative fuel source. EVs only have a shot because we've already covered the world in power lines, though capacity is still a huge issue. Couple that with all of the safety regulations needed to make hydrogen safe, which increase costs dramatically, and H2 was dead on arrival.
And the problem that hydrogen production is so high emissions that they are actually worse than gas/diesel cars for the environment. Totally ignoring the whole reason we are trying to get away from fuels. And trying to push a "solution" that is just as bad as the original problem.
The 'W' Bush Admin promoted a big hydrogen car initiative. Stanford U did a study ~ 10 years ago, which concluded that, for ~ 15 years at least, EVs would be cheaper/better. Hydrogen is expensive/inconvenient to store/transport; steel pipelines are destroyed by hydrogen embrittlement. IFF someone can figure how to electrolyze it cheaply, it might be a great way to store wind/PV energy. Ammonia and methanol may be more promising.
I know it was a joke but there are currently more than 160,000 EV chargers in the United States, not 2 billion.
the thing that is not talked about enough is for a start, big oil is relying on the hydrogen to be processed from their supply chain, i.e. NOT green hydrogen. Also, the thing I cannot come to grips with is even if you could make hydrogen from wind or solar etc, about 70% of that energy is lost with all the processing stages, so you might as well just 'fill up' with electricity to start with and have a close to 90% energy transfer, and without the added infrastructure costs. By all means, if there is too much wind and solar and with no way to use that energy, use that surplus to produce hydrogen, after all, it is used massively in many industrial areas including fertilizer manufacture etc, and potentially replacing coal in steel production.
I’ve said this a million times these companies have to find a way for these cars to run directly off of the h2 from water that is put in the vehicle
Electric Viking Thank you for showing this video. You know I did exactly what you said on the video , how many electric charge stations are there in Ontario Canada. Then I did my research on how much it would cost to purchase an Ev overall cost to. Then I made my decision when bought an electric car. It's very simple to do your research and if you need help there are plenty of locations to find it . Your videos for example, or for me government agencies that give me good links to find the advice for purchasing an electric vehicle which I have here nearby Toronto,But here's the fact is cheaper to run electric car than gas or even hydrogen . Thank you.
Actually some hybrids are just as cheap as a EV. Also in some areas a public charger costs more than gasoline.
Toyota has been putting so money into this tech that they can't dig themselves out of it. There's no demands.
The problem with Hydrogen is the same problem with gasoline you can't refuel at home and you essentially need to build stations to hold the fuel meaning you need hydrogen stations everywhere just like you need gas stations everywhere except is there is a fire now the explosion will be substantially bigger
At first I laughed, "case by case basis", then I realized, there are so few of them sold, they probably could speak individually with each owner. And the same office could handle all the cars sold. A small office, staffed by 1 or 2 people. They'd be done their work in a few weeks. LOL
Are you serious? The Mirai is a pilot program that the public can purchase as Toyota develops the technology. It's as simple as that for now. I really can't believe people don't understand such a basic concept
@@moabman6803 The tech is already a failure. there's no development that's going to help those purchasers. They spent a lot of money, on the promise they'd be able to use a vehicle and there is virtually zero infrastructure for them anywhere on earth. Nobody takes it seriously.
As The Electric Viking predicted, those global vehicle producers who don't competently embrace making EVs will die. The only thing preventing that today is range anxiety and EV pricing. That will change in a decade or less. I don't know if Tesla will come out as one of the top EV makers in the long term but even now, things are looking promising that they will prevail.
The Toyota website in the UK said it planned to roll out several hundered hydrogen filling stations over a three year period - to the best of my knowledge it has not started yet and it should have finished at least a year ago. The Mirai hasn't been advertised in their offerings for at least two years even though they tell me I can still buy one.
The Mirai is a pilot program that the public can purchase as Toyota develops the technology. It's as simple as that for now
The real nightmares for some people (with anti-EV sentiments) aren't expensive energy and very few places to refill, but house fire, electrical fire and EV fire.
"Your car will be ready to go". Unless it's January in Chicago.
Hydrogen makes no sense since electricity was invented. My Mitsubishi hybrid goes ~ 70 km on electrical charge, and when home I plug into solar panels 120Volt convertor, and charging for free. Could not do that with hydrogen. Can't beat the efficiency and controls of electrical motor.
worst idea ever going from gasoline to hydrogen is a real step backwards.
hydrogen filling stations closing.. only $35 a pound
I’ve been saying this for the longest, hydrogen is too expensive.
Gasoline powered electric generator car; charge at home and drive around town on electric only daily, just tank up for the occasional long road trip. 'Volt' tech worked the best of both worlds, and the same technology could be applied to trucks, suv's, 3-wheelers, etc.
I believe that hydrogen may become viable in 15-30 years time, if we develop into 100% renewable energy generation by that time. Any surplus could be converted into hydrogen basically for free and therefore drive prices down. There are now domestic hydrogen storage solutions for people with PV that - once more ubiquitous - could become a home charging solution. But we are not there yet, not by a long shot.
EVs make sense even if the government isn’t trying to ban ICE vehicles. Hydrogen vehicles don’t. Case closed. Why would people buy something that they would never want if they had a choice?