Ludonarrative Discipline
2024 ж. 11 Мам.
18 556 Рет қаралды
Join me as I lovingly waste your time by stream-of-consciousness-ing my way through some vaguely related game systems and how they make me feel inside.
Twitter: / nero_thegame
Patreon: / nerothesky
Music
"Hudie" - Masafumi Takada
"Menu Theme (TOCA 2)" - EZ Rollers
"Act the Fool" - Takeharu Ishimoto
"The Gates of Hell (Swing Ver.)" - Hiroshi Yamaguchi
"Non-Negligible Error" - Keita Inoue
"Tomorrow is Mine" - Hiroshi Yamaguchi
"Pursuit ~ Corner the Culprit" - Masakazu Sugimori
"School (v4)" - Shinji Hosoe
"Otogiri Juubee" - Masafumi Takada
Intro 0:00
Ludonarrative Discipline 6:36
Extrinsic Incentives 10:50
Framing 24:29
Tails is not Sonic 37:24
Conclusion 41:17
#mario #sonic #devilmaycry #bayonetta #hifirush
What I really love about Devil May Cry is that the ultimate reward of playing well is not getting SSS ranks, it's just to pull off cool stuff and feel good about it
That’s part of why it’s one of the greatest games/series of all time. Getting better at the game itself and recognizing that is what makes it fun. It’s one of the most insane and addictive loops ever made. Only other games that can get me that hit are the first 2 Team Ninja NG games or 90s fighters.
I think this is a great example of how ludonarrative dissoance isn't necessarily a problem of game design. If the goal built into the game is achieving that consonance, then dissonance is a measure of skill.
That feeling when you say "Bullshit" at the exact right time during the video.
This is literally the principle around why i love the Sonic series in particular. I play the games with a very "live up to the ideal of Sonic" mindset as a core of why i like the games. I have been looking for a name for it forever.
Well, the same could be argue for Rayman as well.
So one thing I'd like to bring up in regards to incentives in Sonic is a factor you didn't really go into: exploration, and in particular, collecting the chaos emeralds. This is a pretty major factor in a lot of Sonic games, they get you the good endings, they give massive score bonuses (especially in S3&K if you get the Perfect bonus), they unlock even faster, more powerful forms, and notably they typically require a player to slow down. The chaos emeralds typically require players to go off the main path of a stage, find hidden secrets, break through obstacles, and otherwise interact with the world in a way that diverges from a perfectly fast run. Sonic Advance 3 is one of my favorite games in the series, and even even without a detailed score system it has hidden chao to find in each level that eventually lead to getting the chaos emeralds and, in turn, getting the good ending of the game. I think this is naturally where analysis of Tails slots in. He flies, an ability that not only makes it easier to get through a level, but makes it far easier to explore one as well. You mentioned using Sonic and some Amy in SA3, and that makes sense for score runs, but the game has five total characters and I remember playing primarily as the combo of Knuckles & Tails. Knuckles & Tails aren't particularly fast as far as combos go, but they're easily the best combo for exploring a level. Any path a level has, any breakable wall in the way, practically any obstacle the game can hinder you with, this duo can go through and around it with ease. They don't have the same maximum speed potential as Sonic, but in particular when looking for the chao to get the good ending their input is invaluable. I think this taps into one of the core themes of the series as a whole. Sonic probably wouldn't collect all the chao alone, in fact he can't get them all alone, but he ISN'T alone. The other characters bring their own forms of value to the table, both in ability and temperament, and the game rewards engaging with the game on their terms as well as Sonic's. Another neat feature of SA3's ranking system is how the game remembers what ranks you've gotten. Anytime you load up a level, you see whether or not you've ever gotten not just a Gold rank on a stage, but also a Silver or a Bronze. Getting a Gold doesn't overwrite the other two, its as though you're meant to collect them all. Do a really fast run, yeah, that's what the Gold rank is for, but also take some time in the stage, really feel out every path and hidden spot within the level, the Silver and Bronze ranks are also there for you to collect, and there are 12 possible combinations of playable characters that DON'T have Sonic in them at all for you to get these other ranks with. The Gold rank might be the "best" as far as speed is concerned, but in collecting the other rankings the game shows that Gold is not the only "valid" ranking, it is not the One True Way to play the game like DMC S Ranks and Bayonetta Platinum Ranks give the impression of.
Completely agree with the Tails and friends analysis, in fact I had a segment saying much the same in the original script but I cut it for the sake of time. I still say speed is the ultimate goal in most Sonic games. Once all Chao have been collected all that remains is Time Attack, and in the early games I see the hunt for the chaos emeralds mostly as a means to more speed in the form of Super Sonic (except in the first game where they don't really do anything). Interesting note about the medals in SA3.
Insisting on speed alone is always reductive imho, the actual characterization is a daredevil, IE going head down into danger, in fact looking at level design, there is a pattern where maintaining speed in the face of obstacle without flinching is the way to play, it makes you feel daring. But flinch and you get hit, be it fire that stop just as you pass, grasshopper robot that jump just you are about to crash into them, running on water above spike, running at full speed across sinuous cliff in a ruin, these moment happen and you have to trust the level design and be confident to hold the control firm. That's something later game mess with, they send you into the danger instead of using danger. Speed wasn't the goal, speed was the characterization, being do confident you can run into danger blindly and remain unscathed. Exploration play a role in that characterization and also act as a breather to contrast with moment of speed. There is so many more nuances to talk about such as implied path and surprising change of direction that play in a feeling of danger while adding replayability puzzle, or the complex level layout that build tension by making you feel lost all while area are organized as ratchet that keep you progressing forward no matter what, that is element of unknown conquered by running confidently through them. The original series is so brilliant in merging this.
you know i always called this "weaponized ludonarrative dissonance", because it's a good example of ludonarrative dissonance being used to improve the game. on the topic of the "gameplay after S rank" for dmc, for most other mediums there is subtle differences between people about how you interpret a character, but DMC (or games that use scoring systems like that) use the medium of games to uniquely create different "enactments" of the character, kinda like a stageplay, a different actor might give a different performance to the same lines. what was that matt impression though jesus christ
"Weaponized ludonarrative dissonance" is the perfect term for it. But what Matt impression? I was paraphrasing him.
bro i swear you where doing an impression while paraphrasing him
.....I may have considered it at one point in the process@@swan-cloud
“I hold Dante, Bayo, and… King Arthur…” *Shows picture of Sonic* And that’s when this video got an instant like from me. Never forget that Sonic is the once and future King of England.
As showcasers we almost exclusively define perfection entirely subjectively and outside the game's reward structure, which gives us a very narrow but also complex view of what the most fun way to play the game is, and we argue about how to incentivize that for casual play *a lot.* This video feels like the culmination of every single one of our debates, and you weren't even there for them! Thank you for making this There is a middle ground in which you can make failure spectacular, but still recoverable. In my most recent Arkham Knight episode, The Killing Joke, I deliberately allowed Joker to hit me with laughing gas about three times during the boss fight. You can interrupt him out of completing this attack by throwing a projectile - in fact it's very clear the game wants you to do this because it displays an onscreen prompt every single time it happens. If you fail however, four things happen: You get a unique camera angle during Joker's follow up attack, you switch characters automatically, Joker opens himself to be targeted, and special dialogues play. You don't take damage, you don't even lose your combo. This is an objective failure of the player to react to an attack, but it helps the framing, it helps the structure of the fight, and it even moves the plot forward a little bit. I had to include this because the game gave me every reason as a filmmaker to let the characters fail a little bit. It just flows better like that
My eyes doth protest... A second upload in the same calendar year? You jest, Sir! 😅
This is literally what I feel when I jump into any new RPG trying to roleplay certain characters. Thank you verbalizing my thoughts on the subject.
For dmc5's style system, my belief is that it's only designed to push you far enough to get invested. Once you're good enough to consistently hit S ranks, you'll probably have developed an emotional attachment where you'd just keep innovating for the thrill of it, along with the mastery of the mechanics to do so at will.
>Shows up >Posts amazing videos >leaves >comes back >posts another banger video >disappear for another year
He refuses to elaborate
You could talk about paint drying on a wall and I still would be like "damn you right your on to something I see that too in my DMC now" I hope that you will one day talk about my favorite game "The World Ends With You" especially the original DS version on how for a new player Nekus journey story and gameplay wise makes so much sense. Great Video as always.
Don't get me started on paint
Ds twewy has the best ludo narrative synergy in nearly any game with the two character system
@@nerothesky"maintaining stylish narative of observing paint drying" would be nice title for a video
I think this kind of analysis would expand kinda well to more types of players. Because while this video focuses on the player that expands multiple playthroughs to get as good at a game as possible to become ludonarratively harmonic, most players wouldn't do that, so for most players, the game would be ludonarratively dissonant. I feel like even though Viola was used as an example of ludonarrative dissonance of players aiming for perfect play, if you don't care about scores or grades, Viola actually is ludonarritively harmonic, even up until you're extremely good at the game but only get hit every great once in awhile. Of course, this is coming from the type of player who is much more casual, but I feel like that expands to more players than ones who grind them. Still a very interesting topic
In the case of Dante and other DMC characters (and characters from similar franchises) the "playing at high skill is in character" thing is so extreme that we don't just say "yep, that's Dante," we say "that's lore accurate Dante." We came up with a specific term for it.
9:24 "...and this drive can keep you invested..." (Shows Dante executing Overdrive) Chef's kiss.
One brilliant example that manages to capture every level of skill with zero ludonarrative dissonance is Pizza Tower. Peppino is meant to be a frantic, down on his luck dude who is subject to just the worst luck. If you suck at the game and every level is an ordeal where you are getting hit constantly, that works. But he's also a rampaging wrecking ball when he's pushed too far, so when you get good at the game and are able to accumulate P Ranks it still works. The game also never really demands perfection from the player, even some of the hardest to P Rank stages you still are able to make a FEW mistakes, which supports that slapstick idea. If you take a hit and incidentally get bumped past a tricky section it's still in-character. "Fuck it, keep running, you can still make it" is something that you feel through the entire game and that's exactly how Peppino is presented. As an aside, the curve of the game pushing you to the next rank by showing, "You were ALMOST there, just do another run and you might be able to get it" is brilliant. If you get all the collectibles you easily get an A Rank so you innately feel, "I just need to do a second lap to get an S..." and when you get the S Rank you can think, "I only dropped my combo maybe once or twice, and I clearly know the stage by now, I could get a P Rank..." I went into the game not really intending to P Rank all the stages, but the game teasing the next rank making the next stage of mastery always feel achievable got me to do so. For stylish action games, having moments where the character does mess up also can help reduce this. Like while Dante is presented as easily destroying everyone, remember that the earliest moments of DMC3 have him for instance he gets stabbed multiple times in an ambush, messes up turning on a jukebox, and at the end of the fight he was too busy styling to realize he was destroying his own shop. Not to mention he loses his first fight with Vergil, you mechanically need to drain his life bar to 0 but the game expects it to be an ordeal so that the cutscene afterwards showing the end of the fight isn't immersion breaking. And frankly, trying to make all the storyline exclusively resonate with the mastery makes for a less engaging story. Sure, the highest level players can clown on Vergil and make him look like an easy boss, but would the story have been better if Vergil was treated as such? Matching the "average" player to whom Vergil is an extremely difficult boss by presenting him as Dante's equal - if not superior - makes a stronger story and characters. You put Bayonetta in the same first cutscene as DMC3 and she'd just dodge the ambush, turn on the jukebox no problem and defeat all the demons WITHOUT destroying her shop somehow. It puts her in a different category of character to Dante, in spite of being part of the same genre. Bayonetta games have this issue where a lot of bosses that the narrative expects you to believe should be super simple to get through are ones that you aren't actually mechanically equipped to fight, even when the game gives you specific set pieces to do so. Personally I can't stand Bayonetta's combat even though I love stylish action games.
Thank you! This whole essay explores a topic I have long been trying to put into coherent words for folks who don't like these types of games. It's a phenomenal breakdown of why these games are so special to me. Now if only it didn't dive into _quite_ so many Bayo spoilers or I might be able to show this to people as a way to get them into the series. As for Sonic, it might be because I grew up with the Adventure-style titles, but I don't think Fast is the only lens to see the character. Especially in SA2, Heroes, Project 06, Rush Adventure, and Unleashed, getting a good rank is about tricks and style and pacing as much as it is about the timer. Sonic isn't just an impatient asshole; he's an impatient asshole who finds hero-ing fun. Beating up oppressors is fun to him, ecoterrorism is fun to him, showing off is fun to him. That's why it's better for your rank to go off a ramp in City Escape and nab those thousand points than to just skip the ramp because it's faster. It doesn't get you into the mind of a speed demon; it gets you into the headspace of a hero. This might also be why Generations never landed for me. In a game where time is all that's extrinsically valued, I don't feel like exploring the world and appreciating the hero gig are given enough weight by the game. On that note though I'm tickled to consider how Sonic is the most ideal character in Advance 3 for Time Attack in most stages, and he's almost never the right guy to do the chao-hunting. That almost implies that while Tails and Knuckles and Cream are off helping out people and saving the day and unlocking the good ending, Sonic is too busy showing off how well he can clip through the ceiling. It's a good bit of character-alignment that tells its own story within the context of the game. Nonaggression is suddenly a team effort we just don't see the whole team for.
Mario the Man vs. Mario the Idea
Great vid dude! But also: "THIS IS IMPORTANT->AMY ROSE" big agree
God I relate to asking the question “am I embodying the character properly?” so much whenever I play more story driven games Like for example in Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth currently I keep asking: “would Cloud put aside the time at this moment to do the side quests for the story engagement and reward? Or would he think: “there isn’t time for this, we need to get to the Temple of the Ancients NOW”
would Cloud butcher "Two Legs? Nothin' To It" this atrociously on the piano or...
This is the most nuance I have seen in a game discussion in a while. Good job
This video has penned out seemingly two archetypes in this genre of games: Hypercompetent Rainbow Laser Display of Pain (as in, every color is a new stylish world of hurt), and fighting goofballs you find congregating in the Jackie Chan Goofball Lounge. There are more archetypes, but i wonder where Briar and Lute from late 2022's Soulstice would fit in. (Good game within the character action/hack-and-slash/whatever the fup/Slashy Character genre). They are neither style hunters nor goofballs, more in line with Darksiders or Soul Reaver in tone and speech. More dour, frustrated, and having a hard time seeing much light in the situation, but nevertheless very skilled. These worlds are more dark fantasy, played more seriously. They do allow for styling, but is never incentivized with a style meter (as far as i know). Darksiders didn't have it, Splatterhouse 2010 didn't, Dante's Inferno, God of War, Marlow Briggs and the Mask of Death... but Soulstice does. The only other two games with a more serious (fantasy) setting that i can think of that tried anything with incentivizing style, are God of War: Ascension, Knight's Contract and Heavenly Sword: - Knight's Contract gives you a score like DMC based on how you kill an individual enemy, i believe, by performing various different melee moves with player character Heinrich and have escort character Gretchen perform various magical spells to put the enemy in vulnerable states. The end score is shown with a stylized medieval letter in different colors. - Heavenly Sword has you do... things... to progress a bar on the bottom of the screen with three "checkpoints" within individual encounters. Never properly managed to figure out how that one worked. - God of War: Ascension had you dealing damage on a consistent level while avoiding damage to build up a Super Meter, and instead of main secondary weapons it has four different Elements for the Blades of Chaos that you can switch between. These Super Moves have different attacks/effects for their R3/L3 attacks depending on what element you have active. But on top of that, a number of moves (that were more readily available in the five previous games) are locked behind the Super Meter reaching past certain tresholds, which generally isn't liked. Especially with how easily Super can be lost, and the non-Fire of Ares elements have a tougher time building it up. I think Soulstice does the most with it. It, in a way, mixes Bayonetta's and DMC5's style meter by way of the Unity Meter and Level Rankings: - You have multiple "style ranks", that you improve by dealing damage, counterattacking, and avoiding incoming damage - Building up the highest treshold of Unity allows Briar & Lute to enter Rapture, later Berserk, and even later Transcendence states. - Unity gets lost upon getting damaged, waiting too long and at the ends of fights. - Performing a special combo and ending with a specific one of seven weapons total, you get a special Finisher based on the weapon you perform the last hit of the combo with. - Rapture is the first Special state you can enter when full Unity is attained, and always lasts for a set amount of time. - Within Rapture, once at the end, you can perform a special Finisher as well, which uses up more Unity than it normally would have. - but once Transcendence gets attained, you can instead choose to put the flighty Unity into the more permanent Transcendence meter, which has three Stocks for using special abilities *within* Transcendence. It's quite a lot to explain here but *dang* is it cool stuff. It's more managable as you play through the game for yourself. As for the Bayonetta element: Almost word-for-word the exact same individual encounter scoring system. You get scored for Time, Damage (with various modifiers, for which there is a pause menu guide) and Damage Taken at the end of a fight. Fun thing with framing there, though: From Bronze rank to Platinum rank, you are awarded with emblems of the game's most recurring symbol (a circle with three or six spikes protruding from and into its circumference). On Bronze rank, you only see the upper arch and a single short stubby spike on the emblem. Higher-ranking emblems have the full circle more, and have the spikes at various distances from --or into-- the circumference until they meet together as closely as possible in the Platinum emblem. I think that counts for being among the more encouraging reward screen framing. Strange comment mayhaps and there's not a super big point to it. I mainly wanted to share word on Soulstice and get people interested in trying it. That all said, keep an eye out on Enenra, Genokids and Yasuke: A Lost Descendant as well.
Never cared about ludonarrative dissonance until I finished Sekiro. Becoming the character that i was playing made everything feel a 100* more real Every character felt more real in LATER playthroughs lol. So absurd
Yeah, I feel that way too. Honing the fights to their hardest potential is so, so exhilarating.
@@HoplessNihilist there's a point where Sekiro becomes more stylisg than Dante lol. I feel like at that time also we're breaking character again. But that's awesome too
@@VivekKumar-jb5sk Agreed, that's why I use a 2B skin for my runs. It doesn't feel like I'm playing Sekiro anymore. Maybe that's why Shura is a thing.
@@HoplessNihilistmakes sense. Every true Sekiro fan should be able to beat Isshin with one hand😂
I disagree with the point about Tomb Raider 2013. That game's whole premise is about Lara going from a hapless archeologist who can't fight, can only barely wield a gun, hell, can't even dodge proerly, and how she has to rapidly develop those skills in the course of the game. For about the first third of the game, you can't even attack properly in melee, and it takes twice as long for Lara's haphazard scramble to become a proper dodge technique. I think TR2013 does a great job of keeping your ludo in sync with the narrative, so to speak.
I played TR 2013 somewhat recently and even on hard mode, as soon as Lara gets a bow, Lara had everything she needs to fight. The enemies are kind of idiots and often would let me just head shot them one at a time as they peaked from cover. She also seems to have this physics defying ability of redirecting her jump mid-air. To say nothing of the arbitrary upgrade/level up system.
She starts like a a soldier and finish the game like a god, even in hard she feels too overpowered and the skills you unlock overpower her more and feels really artificial. I loved the game but i dont care at all for the story.
While I understand the point in discussion, I don't know why we need to assume that games will necessarily always be more fun if there is a complete alignment of player behavior and character motivation. In fact in some games it's a lot more fun when these elements contradict themselves, often for comedic effect. At the end of the day while a lot of this makes sense, I have never felt frustrated when I fuck up as Dante or Bayonetta because "I'm not realizing the characters in the canon way". I just feel frustrated because I fucked up and I'm a tryhard. lol However I cannot say that I can't relate, because in Thief Gold for instance, I could not conceive not playing on Expert and not going through the levels achieving every objective in the most perfect way I could, because I was just so immersed in the setting and experience that I could not allow myself to let my own self imposed restraints go... What I mean to say is that ludonarrative dissonance that stems from player behavior alone, instead of the story and objectives of the game itself being contradictory, are only a problem when the player cares about it. It's almost like a roleplay concept: Do you want to become Dante? Do you care enough about manifesting some form of perceptually canon performance for the character you're controlling? Or do you just want to be good, with not a thought given to that extra layer of possible immersion? Idk man this is all very interesting but I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't know whether or not it matters all that much and it's kind of annoying
Furthermore, there is also story-driven ludonarrative dissonance as well. That is to say, the game lies to you about the supposed experience you are having. A good example are all mainline Metal Gear Solid games. You do play them well, but you are never playing them just to be a good spy. In fact, the people in power want you to be a good spy because it achieves some ulterior motive. But you are always led to believe that the goal is straightforward at first. Then alignments are revealed. Admittedly, that is the Metal Gear formula, but it is still the most well-known series that gives you gameplay objectives you cannot entirely achieve. I suppose, then, another example is OMORI. Your supposed goal is to find Basil. You are distracted by helping Captain Spaceboy. It turns out that was a dream. It also turns out your dream group is very easily distracted from finding Basil. So despite the fact that you keep solving problems, you never get around to finding Basil. But that is the supposed goal. The actual goal is to avoid finding Basil, and keep having the journey of finding Basil in Headspace. Furthermore, finding Basil in Headspace is bad because that means you’ve fully committed to ignoring life, to the escapism of Headspace.
My counterpoint to your point would be that saying that "X thing is only a problem when the player cares about it" is an irrelevant point. Ultimately, whether or not anything in any piece of media matters or not, will depend on the individual. But the subjective is completely and utterly worthless, obviously, so I guess the discussion simply ends there? Hell no, there is something objective here, and if you want to figure out if something is an objective flaw or not, here is one simple question that can put it into perspective, on whether or not this issue truly is objective, or just subjective, as you would claim it to be. Would utilizing this aspect in a way that it satisfies someone else (or another group of users) directly tamper with your enjoyment or appreciation of the Product? And if it does, how so? What is that tied to about the Product? What I mean by this, is much like what you say. You don't care about this thing, but would the "better care for this aspect" hurt any part of the experience that you value? I will assume for the sake of my comment, that the answer is no. You know, given that you don't "care" for this aspect. Otherwise you would have to be against the concept on some level, like with Dark Souls fans and the concept of difficulty settings, which in turn would say something about the experiences that you value from the product. And thus, the answer to the question of whether or not the issue at hand is an actual problem for developers to tackle, is that it absolutely is. It might not be an issue that you will care about, but it is very much so still a potential issue. Because it is there, it is there (I know this is worded in a funny manner). The small stain/painting on the wall will not cease to exist simply because you personally don't care about it. Sometimes the small stain/painting on the wall isn't too bothersome to the purpose of the house, sometimes it is, and in both cases, there will be people who care/don't care about it. And while I would love to say that you can never tell who is right for caring/not caring, I can't say that with full confidence, but as I am sitting here with my dinner ready to be eaten, I funnily enough don't care about actually finishing this tangent. That will be an objectively poor choice on my part. Maybe not to a hyper-detrimental value, or to anyone else's care, but it is still a problem that could be fixed by me actually sitting this out and engaging with the discussion to the fullest. Who knows, maybe it will slightly annoy someone scrolling by passively reading this. But I personally do not care, much like you do for the perhaps overemphasized value set on Ludo-narrative usage in Video Games. But at the end of the day, both are still issues, whether we care or not. Because they could be fixed to no detriment of anything else in the final product. (I am aware that it is conceited to compare a whole-ass fucking video game to a KZhead response comment, bite me) And that is the gist of it. Many things are objective, but individually we as people are subjective in our preferences as well as our scope to care about various aspects. Incidentally, most things are made up of a LOT of various aspects, all of which COULD be taken into account. And that makes those things potential problems, which could be fixed, sometimes to the detriment of other areas, and sometimes not. And when it sometimes doesn't, there should be no harm to consider it a legitimate problem, even if small. After all, it is still a part of the final product. And JUST to be sure that you don't take this comment the wrong way (because some on the internet, no matter who, can sometimes take things the wrong way), I bear no ill-will towards you and your comment. In fact I find it valuable that you had this to say on the topic. The question of whether or not an issue is overstated, is a correct question to raise, but again, my rebuttal of that is simply put, that if someone puts high enough value on it, then it is there to be criticized. After that, it will be up to individual developers to decide on whether or not they will choose to care for that aspect, seeing as how this video shows that there is potential in appealing to such a demographic.
Ludonarrative dissonance does not stem from player behavior alone. It requires a conflict in expressed narrative intent in and out of gameplay. Of course the player is ultimately responsible for if they care about the dissonance itself but when discussing the topic, it’s much more useful to remove player opinion and look at how player actions are incentivized. Take, for instance, the way celeste’s gameplay pushes the player in a way that is conducive to the story. Quick deaths, mitigated time punishment, and unlimited lives makes it easier for a player to get into the mindset of continually practicing, improving bit by bit, and eventually reaching a goal, in this case, climbing the mountain. This is expressed narratively in the main character’s motivation. She wants to challenge herself with something she’s not good at and overcome that difficulty. Imagine the main character was initially portrayed as the best mountain climber, with no hardships to overcome? That would contrast pretty harshly with the aforementioned gameplay incentives.
Subbed, this better go viral or I swear
im playin thru sifu and im a lover of shortcuts and easy mode in videogames iim really not a tryhard and i always thought that games like dmc wouldnt be fun for me. but for the first time ever im like. tryharding this shit so much. its FUN to make things harder for myself and not take the shortcuts the game so graciously gave me cuz i WANNA BE GOOD I WANNA BE SIFU and u made me realise this. good vid
I think there's something to Mario teleporting and blazing through levels like he's some kind of god and has reality warping, that's my canonical Mario actually
Fantastic video and it just put a name to something that had been floating around in my head for the longest.
I don't know if Sonic's carefree attitude and effortless speed actually relates to him literally completing the level as fast as possible. I always took his speed to refer more to the ability to go fast and flow rather than finish fast.
Nero: I recently played Soma [throws mouse at Munshi] Me: [cheering upon the phrase + laughing upon the action]
Props for Koudai T. being your go-to example of a great DMCV player, instead of the usual Donguri or Sakaki (fantastic style players in their own right!) Nobody does it quite like Koudai!
Old Castlevanias nailed this on either end of the skill spectrum. Playing well showed off the skills/knowledge of the Belmont, but getting annihilated on early playthroughs shows how much a threat Dracula and the other monsters are (and hence why you need to use some skill and end him).
Some Krieg builds on Borderlands 2 are also a great example of the game rewarding you for getting hit in a way that makes sense for the character narratively.
two vids in one season, lets go
This video really nailed a lotta what I enjoy about the flow in Sonic and DmC games, I feel like it was a little poorly structured in some places but that's okay I really enjoyed watching it, also you're super funny and the editing was great. It was fascinating to watch because both of those franchises have helped me destress through harder times of my life and I think this aspect of their game design is really what helps me do that when playing them. I like this.
Nice video. I feel like when the devs want you to feel that way they sometimes have scripted moments. Like in JRPG s when there is a scripted defeat which would be the intended way they want you to feel. I get the vibe. But this topic is kind of endless when you factor in what others interpret the character as and what would be in character for them. Kind of a nice thing though seeing other people's takes on this. Nice video made me think about it for the kind of games I play.
peak video, brilliant writing and delivery, S tier, pure platinum even
One of the most interesting videos I've seen about videogames in a long time. Really well done study with pretty interesting subjects
I'm only 18 min in and i already laugh with and applaud this vid
Sifu is a good example of this. If you want your score to be higher. Which you need it to be high to get the most op upgrades. Then you must do combos diversely and not jam a square peg in a round hole. Which makes the game play look good and makes you learn new combos.
ok guy, your videos are really crazy omg, and I appreciate what you do a LOT 💙
welcome back!
As someone who is bad at sonic, and never played DMC or Bayonetta, I can 100% agree. It can be crushing to realise you can't speed through levels like Sonic. Why must I suffer for Sonic's art?
Finally I have always compare Sonic and DMC and you pal put the exact words No kidding people may struggle on Sonic Adventure 2 or Heroes due to ~their lack of skill~ some design choices But getting those A Ranks, mastering every level was so satisfying and to this day i stand by I don't care about momentum or multiple routes in Sonic, i just want to be able to play the Sonic CD Intro and looking like the coolest stranger ever
12:32 Dante would break all the benches in Fortuna's Castle, because it's goofy and Dante IS GOOFY.
I started playing DMC3 seriously over my spring break a few weeks ago. After accidentally wiping my Dante save when trying to make a Vergil one, I decided to beat the game again, but getting all of the S ranks while I was at it. I beat the game first by rushing through it as fast as possible to select any stage I wanted, then grinding out every stage until I was good enough to beat them as stylishly as I needed to; getting used to the style switcher and weapons switcher, fighting all of the great bosses as well as Arkham and Doppleganger, and learning how to take minimal damage. When I got an S rank on every mission and beat Vergil 3 for the first time with an S rank in everything, I truly felt like Dante for the first time.
Holy shit amazing video dude, looking forward to your channel! (also you made me actually like the weird animation in frontiers for when you take damage in the cyberspace 'feeling ashamed' and whatnot lol)
genuinely shocked you don't have more subscribers, this video is so high quality. liked and subscribed!!!
With all the Kingdom Hearts in the background, how do you think Ludonarrative Discipline applies to Sora? There's no ranking system for fights, which makes sense since he runs the full gamut between "hypercompetent badass" and "cringe failboy" at the drop of a hat, but there *is* a ranking system in the game; Jiminy's Journal and the secret movies. To get a secret ending you have to defeat all the bosses, play all the minigames, and collect all the collectables. The game doesn't encourage you to be perfect, but it asks you to see as much as possible and keep trying until you succeed. It asks you to be an explorer who keeps bashing his head against the wall until thing work out, and I think that's a great fit for Sora.
Another banger my good sir
I've never played Assassin's Creed, but synchronization seems to be this exact concept. You play as a guy reliving the life of one of his ancestors in virtual reality. Instead of a "health bar," you have a synchronization bar that goes down whenever you do something your ancestor definitely didn't do, which includes getting hit or getting caught.
Lewd narrative disco biscuits
9:24 Said "drive" while Dante performed Drive.
Maybe characters like viola, nero and tails (characters that are not as skilled as the OGs), beyond being instantly ludonarratively consistent with new players, because they also strive to being better and reaching the same level as the main characters, even if they don't have the skill yet, maybe getting better at the game, getting perfect scores with them is a form of embodiying the character, but an idealised version of the character, like you're playing at the level the character *strives* to achieve, what they want to become, making embodying the character not reaching the peak, but the journey to it, like the characters themselves who keeps trying to improve. Basically like this "Quasi non Canondom" you referred, its showing you what the character *can* become, what the character could be if they reached this level of play, even if in the story itself they don't. They're showing skills they didn't have at the time, but in a way they would if they did. At least thats how I view it
Thats an excellent discussion of how a game's narrative can be designed around mastery and all, but was that Fate/Extra's soundtrack I hear in the background? And in a video praising Sonic Advance 3, no less?? You definitely got that Pure Platinum trophy in terms taste, king.
Oh heck yeah, the bell didn't ping for this, but im glad I saw it.
This video helped me realize that the fans are the reason that Link from “The Legend of Zelda” is cannonically a grass slayer.
You must be doing something really special for me to watch a video mainly on Sonic of all things and make me care about it lol
Video's mostly great other than your assessment of Mario. He is no longer an every man in that he represents the average guy he hasn't been for decades he's now an every man in that he can do anything he is a doctor, an athlete, a hero both of circumstance and of destiny he is the saviour of the universe, your pipes, and he's also really good at golf he is an EVERY man so yes in my opinion it is perfectly believable thst he'd move as quickly as Mario speedrunners I mean look at any time he has to do platforming in a cutscene he's excellent at it.
Another over-analyzing nerd. Loving it. Sub.
One thing I find really cool and I wish we'd see more of is showcase videos that focus on embodying the character rather than game performance. For exemple there was this player that would do kill showcases in dishonored and basically focused on doing really cool shit that corvo would do with emphasis on cinematic framing rather than any traditional metric for good gameplay. I think this is such a cool way to show mastery of a game basically making your own movies but in the game itself. Another silly exemple is I love the first battles in ff9 where you are on a stage and you get access to "magic" that are like, stage special effects but don't actually do anything, there is no damage to it, no cost, no reward and it just slows the fight down, but I typically love to use a few because I always feel like that's what the characters would do trying to make a good show. And in this case having no reward at all makes them even cooler to use, I feel like if I had a reward or a score on my performance or anything I'd just use the required amount and then move on but here I'm genuinely considering the stage performance and how it'd be perceived. A last one is how in sekiro when I finally beat ishin I finished it with a lightning reversal into a full charge ichimonji (which is ishin's technique) there was no reason to do that I could have just spammed attacks but it felt so fitting and theatrical, especially with how much I used that technique over the course of the game it was the perfect end but not for sekiro overall but for my incarnation of it. Also a few games you'll most definitely love considering what you said here : Ultrakill, neon white and Furi. They all focus on that feeling of mastery and do a great job at making you embodying stylish characters.
Very interesting discussion
Regarding the "equation not matching the intent": Dmc5 mission 10, on my DMD playthrough I spent a long, long time grinding out the first encounter to jump cancel and royal guard my way to S rank and full DT gauge on the first three empusas so that I could fire the dual kalina anns' laser at the big ant and cancel into Quadruple S to optimize the score. It's a weird thing because it was really cool to SDT on the first (and therefore on every subsequent) fight of the level, but the prep work to get there required a lame and tedious approach that you'd definitely cut out of any combo video.
W vid ngl These so fye
3:58 Why is the video called ludonarrative discipline? Did dissonance get autocorrected or is it really a discipline in your eyes to keep such consistant?
I actually disagree with your take on Dante from Devil May Cry. Nearly every game we see Dante get the crap beaten out of him in the opening cutscene. He gets hit, but he laughs it off. It's equally valid to succeed or fail to reach SSS rank every combat, so long as you are trying to be stylish. Contrast with Bayonetta, who is established as hyper competent and untouchable.
In a Neronian sense, Mario speedrunners are elevating alternative ludonarrative archetypes in the marketplace ('fastest mario'). 1/14
dang this is good
Nah bro had to ruin his search history for the video
Bricks... broken...
... I'm curious what's going to cook
unbelievably good video essay! hard for me to say anything else, it's just really good. I don't know how your sub count is so low.
The number from killing enemies in frontiers is their HP. It doesn't make sense to have it visible in cyberspace, but here we are.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOH! Lol I haven't played outside Cyberspace in ages. What an odd touch.
You should also analyze Rayman in terms of ludonarrative dissonance.
So with that in mind, how do you feel about Sonic and Bayonetta in Smash Bros. and how it, in general, incentivizes that sort of mechanical-roleplay? (for example, Diddy Kong's constant swapping between bananas, baits, and downtilts is pretty much just monkeying around the screen when he's played "properly" while Mega Man / Belmonts wall out the "bosses" with their projectiles, lemons, and whips)
Shadow the Hedgehog actually rewards speed getting to the end of the level very highly if you know how to use the Chaos Control to zip through the level you can get a rank based on speed alone
So, I wanna offer one final note, as someone who tends to play at a very high skill level but does not replay games to access the NG+ spectacle fighter parts. You are right, the benefit of Dante and Bayo as characters is that the style is genuinely over substance. And a goal for any player can be "that was cool" over any actual goal or reward. But... there's one thing left. Dante is a bit of an idiot, Bayonetta often takes her failures in the same stride as her victories. ("I feel like a fucking celebrity in this town") And sonic is, well, sonic, he's also a bit of an idiot. If I get hit as Dante or Bayo, sure it clashes, but in that same vein I am instantly encouraged to not back down, to jump right back at the attacker and have a proper cinematic back and forth. Buuuut, let's say I'm playing through the Special Edition Vergil mode? No, no no no no I'm *not* meant to get hit. I've played this game before, I'm fuckin' VERGIL, I am the final boss I spent 5 hours trying to beat and I will flex on literally everything that isn't the *other protagonist of the story.* But... that's not the first play through is it, and a replay is always gonna have different player goals than the first experience. In the same vein, the platinum vs pure platinum thing? I've always seen it as the platinum is the ideal for the first playthrough, realistically this is what the character could accomplish... Without practice, but if you wanna do better, if you wanna be a god, then you keep trying for that pure platinum .Go all out.
What is this accent. Where could you possibly be from
Crazy how you didn't mention fighting games, where ludonarrative dissonance is basically baked into them
Ayyyy another viola enjoyer
Sonic Advance 3 mentioned Based.
Now I understand why it felt so wrong to play Sephiroth at the very beginning of FFVII: Rebirth when we barely understand how to switch between Remake and Rebirth controls'. Yes, I didn't felt like Sephiroth AT ALL! :')
Ludokino of the highest degree
“To paraphrase Matthewmatosis’s video - 😡 *watch it, seriously, 👿watch it* - when developers-” What are you, my class professor?? Give me one good reason first.
I don't like this movie, but . . . in Batman V Superman, there's a scene where Batman rescues Superman's mom. If I remember the scene correctly, the camera sort of pans through the building while he's in the middle of rescuing her, and you see the path that he's carved out through the building to get to the room she's in. That's how I always pictured the "true" Mario going through the level. Brutal, unsubtle and heading for one place. Now that I think about it, I have no idea why that's what I picture.
Damn the one time Kingdom Hearts would've been perfect for an all-round discussion and it's not here. Devil May Cry is still a perfect example with how the gameplay expects you to perform but the scoring system isn't exactly in-line with telling the narrative. A struggling brutal fight against Vergil is just as canon as brutally dominating. Kingdom Hearts 1 if you were to lose to Leon you will trigger a cutscene with Sora fainting after losing to Leon showing he's still much stronger than Sora. If you win Sora will make Leon take a knee but collapse due to exhaustion from not being pushed so hard in his life. Devil May Cry 5 does a great job of making you want to play as strong as Dante can be but the reality of the situation is that they cannot all play optimally. A game that can both show your failures and successes as progress is how you truly avoid this disconnection. If Sora loses a tournament he doesn't die he simply just lost the tournament. In Dark Souls dying is contextualized both story and gameplay with the Hollowing mechanic. Your failures and your successes all take place within this world and have ramifications for the rest of your playthrough. Beating Leon early nets you a large amount of free exp and an extra Elixir but losing doesn't net you a game over it just progresses the game. That's why some games even show the Game Over screen as the Bad Ending of the story to ensure you're as immersed as possible. The hero dying doomed the world and that's pretty cool to think about or in Dark Souls case loses a piece of themselves with each death being a completely changed man by the end of the journey. A game like Mass Effect has a huge problem with conveying stakes in its gameplay when it's very easy to overpower the battle mechanics and make your character a killing machine.
16:35 they’re damage numbers
I think classic tomb raider was better at doing this than the modern ones because when you get good, it makes Lara look bad ass and it's like yeah classic Lara would do that.
Sonic Unleashed is an interesting point because for as much as the boost formula helps advance the speed incentive, the moon medals absolutely diminish it. Werehog levels are bit more explorey so I don't mind finding the sun medals as much, but why are we forced to explore the nooks and crannies of the day stages when we're supposed to go so fast? One of the things the SD version of Unleashed did better is that moon medals aren't hidden in the stage but actually given as rewards for performance.
Yea that last fight in Bayonetta is really questionable... On your first run you get hit a lot, you die a lot and so her dying at the end makes sense cause you struggled.... But when you kick his ass after mastering the game and getting a platinum or pure platinum it feels like the game cheated you We need to raid team little angels head quarters to force them to add a different ending where bayo is alive if you get a pure platinum
18:00 what game is this character from? Danganronpa?
I think DMC's best example of this concept is actually DMC3 Dante. He's like a mix of the two archetypes: He's still stupidly competent, but he's also kind of a goof and a fuckup. So, in every scenario you can say that he's totally got it under control, or that he's in way over his head. However, the actual plotpoints of the game is where this idea fumbles a bit. He's supposed to lose to Vergil during their first bout but the player might have perfected that fight without trouble. You can say that Vergil was holding back and once the next cutscene started he showed Dante just how strong he truly was, but... that didn't come off in the cutscene direction. Also, he's supposed to be taking the plot a bit more seriously after he awakens DT, but that might not align with how the player feels. It usually will, so it still works to some extent. But maybe when the player fights Vergil again they just perfect him again and don't feel that much different.
Nero, you might not see this but, what do you think of Pizza Tower? Does it fit ludonarritive discipline?
Unfortunately I haven't played it
@@nerothesky oh well if you have a gaming PC and Steam then I would recommend the game.
dont think i didnt catch the neo twewy music at 18:47
There should be a Sonic Unleashed rerelease called sonic leashed which only has the day levels
Ludonarrative dissonance has nothing to do with how people use it, at all. It's more like, the game lets you engage with the narrative on a deeper level than just a linear story. The term is used in the Bioshock review because you're allowed to harvest or purify the sisters, and one is being treated as going with the grain and one is treated as going against the grain, when both ultimately doesn't matter and the game pulls out the rug from under you at the end and tells you that both of these morally opposed choices weren't a choice at all. I don't think this video digs into what the concept is at all.
To me, I interpret as something no longer expected of you when the context shifts and there's diminishing returns. Being perfect in Bayonetta or Hi-Fi Rush don't give you a new metal or letter, it's "Pure" Platinum and "Starred Royal" S. We're not talking about a 4.0 or 3.0 GPA anymore, we're talking about the difference between an A and an A+, they've already made the distinction less valuable in my eyes by making it . . .less distinct. Conversely, something like Overcooked (random segway) don't feel as unexpected in my eyes. The super-secret reward for playing perfect in a level after beating the game? You go from 3 stars to 4 stars. It's literally an entire extra, equally distinguishable separation, all of the stages literally have a hollowed-out 4th star if you haven't achieved that rank yet. To throw out a slightly more thematically congruent example - in Batman Arkham Origins (it may also be the case in other Arkham entries, this was the last one I played so it's fresh on my memory), I don't feel like the game expects me to get all 3 medals (bat-medals?) in a single run - because it doesn't track that. If you got each medal in a separate run of the challenge, the selection screen shows all 3. BUT - when playing the campaign like challenges that involve doing several in a row with a limited number of attempts, the selection screen will instead show a total of how many medals you earned in the selection menu instead. I can clearly see 23/24 medals, so under this context, I feel like I'm expected to bring my perfect game now. And to some extent that made sense to me, although it required some fan canon stretching. If we assume the individual challenges are Batman's prep time, it'd make sense he just wants to ensure he's capable. Once he's out on the streets though, it's pertinent that he uses everything in his toolbelt all at once to maximize the fear he puts on criminals. If there was an extra star or sparkle for doing everything, my brain wouldn't consider it expected performance. But tallying it in that way DOES make my brain feel like it's expected.
You mentioned "RPG". So what is your opinion about player goals and actions vs the "META"?
Could you be more specific?
@@nerotheskyI refer to self imposed challenges that purposely make game harder in order to avoid "meta" and efficient play. Like level 1, upgradeless, etc.....
They're cool. I certainly impose restrictions on myself here and there depending on the game. No Attraction Commands in KH3 for example. Or in DMC5 you get to the point where you stop spamming Quad S Sin Inferno/Royal Guard/Vergil's super moves and hold back for the sake of visual style at the expense of a better score. I haven't done many full on challenge runs, but a KH2 lvl 1 playthrough is on my bucket list. Did that answer your question? @@danieladamczyk4024
@@nerotheskyPartially. Player relation to the "meta" and existence of it, is huge source of ludonarrative dissonance for me. And reason why i stop played many games, becouse they aren't true to themself, tarnishing the experince in the process. So best video game in my opinion is when regardless how i play, every action stay a part of ludonarration. Examples: - first 3 genarations of pokemon - Souls games
@@danieladamczyk4024 I think I get you: when meta strats end up undermining the point of the game. Like a lot of 3D Sonic speedruns are about falling through walls/floors. Meta stuff like that doesn't bothers me in single player games but it could straight kill your investment in a multiplayer game. Completely agree with you on Dark Souls, and Pokemon. They're really ludonarratively solid. What changed in Gen 4 though?