Development of the Luger Automatic Pistol
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Lugers! there are approximately a gazillion different recognized varieties, because the pistol became so popular and iconic. And yet...they all kinda look the same, don't they? (If you are a Luger collector, don't answer that!) A great many ( I daresay the significant majority) of the Luger variations are minor changes in production details. So, what was involved in the mechanical evolution of the Luger?
Not much, really - which is a testament to the talents of Georg Luger. He got the gun almost totally right on his first try. There are, however, two major variants of the Luger mechanically - the 1900 model and the 1906 model. In this video I will walk through the differences between these two, as well as the initial Borchardt pistol that Luger used as his starting point and a couple other relevant milestones (a Swiss trials gun and a transitional French trials gun). And since they are the most common of the military models, we will also take a quick look at the German Army, Navy, and Artillery models.
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For a solid sad 10 seconds i believed there were actually 10 billion of these things and thought to myself "so why can't i find a cheap one?"
People started buying them in the millions and theyre all being hoarded underground
Thank you to the collector who let Ian showcase your fine guns.
And to Ian himself for making these great vids
COLLECTOR(S)!
the Fireplace Guy Collection is an unbelievably well stocked one indeed! I haven't seen a video shot from this location that wasn't amazing. Thanks to anybody involved in letting Ian film these videos!
A big thank you to Georg Luger's mom for giving birth to little Georgie so he can make 10 billion pretty little handguns for Ian and the rest of us.
@@iLLeag7e ikr, there's such an uproar about there being "so many" guns in the US, but do they even realize that gun people tend to be collecting types, I'm not even in the "gun community" but I know at least three people (personally, not talking about KZheadrs) who own more than 100 guns each! I only have 4 so far, though I've owned 8 total in my lifetime.
Ian is like the Morgan Freeman of weapon historians. Could listen to him all day.
Still I would like to listen to Morgan Freeman review the history of these guns!
I sleep to the videos 🤣🤣 help me sleep
Helen Kholmogorova-Landroot Jesus what a he hell happened?
Kiss ass.
Compare Ian with a evil sellout shid actor is not so nice...
This story really makes you think, Borschart coul have been one of the greats in arms history but got too enveloped in his own ego to really push himself forward.
The odd thing is how much the configuration resembles a CZ25/Uzi-style submachine gun, minus the telescoping bolt. With a heavier bolt and a shoulder stock Borchardt might have invented the Uzi-pattern SMG half a century early.
@@AshleyPomeroy The Borchardt had a stock that could be attached and it performed much better like that, carbine style rather than as an awkward pistol. It could've been something really useful and cool. With hindsight, you're absolutely right about the resemblance. If Borchardt had just been a little more flexible...
@Justin Hill Makes you wonder just how many almost geniuses there are with just a bit too much ego
It's hard to decipher post war reporting...who knows what is allied propaganda and the reality of the situation. I think there's some substantial differences between the 2. You're have to be extremely naive to believe otherwise .
Happens all the time in various industries.
10 billion lugers out there? that makes 1.3 luger for every human being on earth lol Free Lugers for everyone!
Kyle Cho I wish
i'd love one right about now
Probably closer to 1.2
About 3 million total made, I believe.
HUZZAH!
Luger p08: 4 inch Navy luger: 6 inch Artillery luger: LONGK DONGK LUGER
Luger Carbine ... Really long.
It's more of a carbine than a pistol with the stock and drum magazine. kzhead.info/sun/mr1webCiZ32hnas/bejne.html
@@thatxmas No it isn't, it's a Longk Dongk Luger.
Fucking kiddies and their memes
The Logger
There's just something about Luger's that makes them look so classy!
Probably the Hugo Boss designed uniforms they are usually paired with on movies and TV
@@yeright1977 afaik this is kind of a myth. hugo boss manufactured the uniforms but the designs were made by the army itself.
I think its the exposed barrel making it look smaller cant compact. The curve of the grip is slick and simple. It looks more like an ornamental gun than a useful one and even so is a great nifty pistol. It's distinct in its look and it's iconic.
Yeah the shape of this gun is just…unspeakably fascinating
@@theredcomet844 the Germans loved their angular grips. On the FG42 it looks very exaggerated but feels real comfy. Great for directing recoil into the thicker part of the hand.
I love how the artillery version is just a normal Luger but long
And with an 800-metre sight, on the off chance you want to shoot someone almost a kilometre away with a 9mm pistol.
@@AshleyPomeroy That must have been a challenge between artillery crewmen. I bet they even do bets on that.
Dont forget the drum like mag
Athletically, I think it’s one of the best looking pistols ever made.
Andrew Hollins visually
@@MAN_FROM_BEYOND no he just likes to exercise while looking at them
Aesthetically to.
I remember when we only took knives to the sporting events....
@@TarpeianRock "...too."
I had a plastic toy Luger when I was a kid. I was kind of fascinated with the way that toggle mechanism worked.
My uncle, SGT. Howard Walcott, U.S. Army, 28th infantry regiment (black lions) took a pearl handled luger from German officer. American officer took it from him ! He took another one from a German, and brought it back. Probably all matching numbers. It got passed on to grandchild. He sold it ! I nearly cried !
Thank you. I found one in a field in England a couple of years ago and this has helped me with info about it. I couldn't keep it (Uk gun laws...) but from the photos I have, it has a coil spring and no grip safety (and a lot of rust and mud)
What a beautiful gun. Would that we had guns made today with such artistic appeal. As always, an amazing review.
Great video! As a brand new Luger owner, I found this extremely informative.
What a fabulous explanation of the evolution of the luger. Really impressive Ian. Totally love your programms. Thank you 👍
This was my favourite video for a while Ian. Please keep up the great work! I love seeing the progression of such a well executed concept.
Awesome video Ian. I was astonished how good the Luger grip actually feels in the hand and how nice it handles. I didn't expect that from such an old gun. Interesting to see and hear the development story now and how only a few changes had been made to it till the P08. Also: there goes my saturday evening. Now I HAVE to watch the other "Development of the..." videos too. :D
Really dig the more in depth engineering discussion. Keep it deep, the details make it exceptionally interesting.
Wow, tremendous review! I bought a 1917 42/S Mauser. The big thing in collecting is matching serial numbers. The Germans we're so fastidious in manufacturing these guns that they put serial numbers on the mags, frame, side panel plate all the way down to the firing pin. All matching parts are rare to find making the pistol very valuable.
Nice!
I got a 1938 luger all matching numbers of #16 this gun is wife's uncle's gun he was in the442 the all Japanese unit in ww2
@@dogsense3773your gun is highly sought after and expensive to buy in the market. Never sell, it's a family heirloom!
This is the most comprehensive and informative video I've ever seen on the Luger pistol. Nice one Ian.
Love to see a manufacturer revisit the Luger design, like a simplified toggle operated pistol, I think it would be very suppressor friendly.
I have a DWM 1918 marked P08, I'd like to get a parts gun to shoot more since I only shoot my Luger once in a blue moon. Do have one of the SIG 1911s and I like shooting that much better than my Colt Series 80 and my dad's IMI 1911 Commander.
Lugers are notoriously finicky, the toggle locked action requires very very precise machining to make it work right. Plus it would be no more supressor friendly then any other handgun, the luger might be worse due to the way it require momentum to unlock, put alot of weight in the form of a supressor on the end of your barrel and your reliability goes down. This is why most handguns need boosters attached to the suppressors to make them work right. Notable exception to this rule is the Beretta 92 series and most blow backs. if your barrel is stationary on the gun, no need for booster.
The Barrel of a Beretta 92 isnt stationary, it moves like in a walther p38. It's a short recoil too, so why should it be an exception?
They would be very expensive to manufacture and the toggle lock action is stronger (heavier and more complex) than necessary for a pistol cartridge. There is a reason everyone uses the Browning short recoil system with the barrel locked to the slide.
I'd rather see a carbine in 9x39
Truly excellent, thank you! Makes me appreciate my own Luger even more.
Ian. Your voice inflection and how you carry different tones makes your videos VERY easy to listen too! Great Luger Presentations on Swiss Military, then the 1929 Luger (other videos) and this one!!! It’s great having different resources too! Thank you
I really like these types of videos, I hope to see more of the iconic firearms. I am so very glad that we have these pieces of history still intact for you to show us and talk about them. keep it up!
Something about the Luger just makes me love it. Also congrats on 300k!
it's that barrel and slanted grip, looks like something out of flash gordon
Thank you for the great info! I have a numbers matching 1918 my grand father took off a German officer in WW 2. I got it out and compared it to your examples during the video and enjoyed "playing" along with you. Great informative video and you can now count me as one of your subscribers. Joel
best pistol video I've seen. well done, very informative without being boring or over technical. Thanks
Ian, another beautiful history/design tour de force. You are a natural teacher and I enjoy these evolutionary descriptions, with all the back stories, the most.
Just found your channel a week ago and wow love how much I'm able to learn from these videos!
The Best historic gun channel ;)
C&Rsenal is another excellent channel
me3333 Yes, they have best gun system videos ;)
Plenty of Ian's vids are just superb, you have found an excellent channel in firearm's.
Ian, you rock. I love the odd guns you find and love watching, but most of all, learning from your videos.
Thank you very much for doing this Ian! C&Rsenal has two great in depth video about the development of the P08 and the Lange Pistole 08. However, they do not have all the individual developmental models on the table making this video a great supplement. I watch your videos frequently and very much appreciate the hard work you put into them!
Ian, can you do a short video on how you became involved in firearms, in specific, historical firearms? Anyone schooling to influence, started as a hobby? You do an absolute fantastic job, and your knowledge is extremely extensive! Thanks
www.forgottenweapons.com/how-to-become-a-professional-gun-nerd/
thats a good idea, I'd definitely watch that
Thank you Jakob Algyer for asking this question, and thank you Ian for that blog post(editorial? article? story? commentary!) I'm looking at changing careers, and that helped me a lot to solidify my path forward.
I was always hoping you'd do this exact video Ian, & you did it! Always loved the way the Luger pistol's mechanism works, would love to have one myself, even if it's just a reproduction (Just hopefully not one being pawned off as the genuine article.)
Excellent job, as always. Had no idea there were so many variations of the Luger.
Great presentation of these beautiful pistols Ian!
I've always wondered: was there never any attempts to simplify the Luger to lower the cost of making it? (As far as I understand the major drawback of it was always its price?)
The Swiss did some of that, but the design doesn't really lend itself to simplification. Better to just replace it outright with something cheap, like everyone eventually did.
The Walther 38 was that.
@Esben M that is what I meant. The luger design was not good on the whole simplifying thing. They had to make a new one.
Typical tectonic obsession with over complexity
@@tracylemme1375 or even teutonic
This is framed like da Vinci's the Last Supper. Lol
But you would need to have twelve Lugers in frame.
Even has gun Jesus in the center
Monkey Wrench then I guess the Borchardt is Judas?
@@LeafseasonMagbag borchardt is the father of the luger
Outstanding presentation as always. That navy p08 w/shoulder stock is my post lotto dream gun.
I agree, those grips on the trial Luger really do look great!
A double-whammy morning. You with the Lugers and Hickok45 with 1911's!
two iconic sidearms
Xíren Seo Two iconic dudes
Lugers are just too beautiful! the 1911 is an efficient and powerful gun, nothing more...
@@Albanez39 you are out of your mind...and you better not be American saying that...
@@wolfiecaps_ Of course I'm not. Proud of being European actually, and with a passion for guns, but no irrestible urge to shoot people or own a dozen pistols and rifles. You guys exaggerate with everything, not to mention the political and social aspect of it all.
Damn, Ian that was wonderful. Thank you very much.
One thing i noticed is that the 1900, 1903 and 1906 lugers are all on safe, but none of the German military lugers are. If you look closely, the safety lever of the German luger at 16:28 is up, whilst the 1906 is down. You can also see a little lever on the side of the 1906 sticking out next to the toggle which means it's on safe. Just thought I'd point it out since Ian said that the 1906 was on safe when it wasn't.
Excellent review of an important piece of weapon history ,I always enjoy your reviews ,they are informative ,intelligent and emotionally well balanced !Thank you sir .
The Luger and Colt 1911 are with out a doubt the best old school pistols ever made.
I've owned both, and I have to agree with you. Both are great pistols! I found the Luger to have a feeling of better balance by having a little more weight in the rear of the pistol over my hand. When firing it, it didn't recoil upwards very much, compared to the Colt 45.
I agree with RVguy having fired both guns many many times. One quirk with the Luger for me personally is the toggle action and resighting. That quick upward toggle action screws with my ability to re-aim by a few milliseconds (it seems to me at least); a problem I don’t have with the 1911. I like the balance and feel of the Luger over the 1911, but prefer the overall handling of the 1911. Ultimately it’s just individual personal preference.
Absolutely...¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡
Go to a gun store & there many 1911 copies
Nah the Sig P210 is the prettiest of all
300,000 subscribers!!! Congratulations Ian!!!
Thanks! :)
I'm in my 20's and i find this channel more interesting than all the other big gun channels
.308or5.56? If you like this you'll like C&Rsenal. They are currently on a mission to research and review ALL the small arms used in WW1.
Nice ill check em out
545000 now!
Thanks for the detailed show & tell. I have 3 Lugers -1908 Commercial, a 42 DWM, and one in .30 Luger from Mauser. I have several accessories from cleaning kits to over a dozen holsters. I have a spare 9mm Luger barrel with toggle that appears to be a prototype and is somewhat longer than the artillery barrel.... I've never shot them.... I also have a broom-handle that is in 9mm export that I am rolling my own cartridges for after an extensive research project on the 9mm export. I have to use FMJ's today, but back then the bullets were steel and the powder ball...
Thank you! Great overview. Looking at the rest of your videos right now.
Wow. Truly, your videos are top notch. Thanks very much for quality HD filming of all the guns you showcase and as well for the info of It's history and development. Don't know where else one would get this much thorough info on any gun on KZhead. So on behalf of everyone who has watched your videos, thank you so much and please continue to do so. You're very valuable Ian, in keeping the interest in these old guns and thereby spurring the collector market. And so residually, it keeps these guns alive and circulating, giving them a new lease on life. And deservingly so, as almost all the old guns are quality pieces. But all are nonetheless important in the history of gun development.
The luger po8 is one of my personal favorite pistols to see, never used one :(
They are awesome to shoot. They feel so natural it's almost like it's a part of your body, though I have to admit I am not a huge fan of the toggle lock but it is amazing to watch operate.
Same
jason200912 fuckin A. Got mine. Pappappappap!!
Great video, shows Ian's enthusiasm and knowledge well!
That was a beautiful overview of the Luger. Just WOW!
Great video Ian. 400 hundreds likes with no dislike talks for itself.
Eey Ore man 1000 likes still 0 dislike... Wtf
2930 and only 2 dislikes! Amazing!
I've also had the pleasure of holding a 1940 krieghoff in mint condition. One came through when I worked at a gun store. We sold it for 5.5k
I like all the things I learn about various guns on here and your manner of presenting the information makes it interesting.
Thanks yet again for a very informative video. I swear your vids are actually improving and they were good to start with.
As a noob who enjoys you videos: Have you ever done an overview video about the technical history of the automatic pistol, from this to modern hammerless? I'd like to learn the technical ideas that gradually improved it and why they came about. You see a lot of people still shooting 1911 variants. Do the last 100 years not really matter?
So nice to listen to somebody who has a passion. I don't care about guns, I just love the way you tell their stories. Thanks from France!
Your subs keep growing because of awesome videos like this one. Nicely done Ian!
"Exceptions to every single rule"...kind of like german grammar.
Yeah German is a pain in the ass
+Patrik Howgate No, it's not. Even toddlers are able to learn and speak German, here in Germany.
BewareOfTheKraut Czech toddlers can do it as well. Terrified by the four German cases? Try seven! (waiting for the Finnish guy to top me)
***** Yep, I heard about the Czech toddlers ;-)
BewareOfTheKraut *Facepalm*
I wanna see someone try to hit a target at 800 meters with the artillery
There was an even longer one: The Holmes Luger with a 13½ inch barrel.
@@travis5125 Was that the one known as the "Big John"?
Quite a collection. Brilliant.
I always love a deep-dive on nuance and the sort of mindet progression of an item's production! The nittier and grittier, the better! Love this.
Thank you! Once again, another thoroughly enjoyable and informative video. I'd love to see you do an in-depth video on a Luger Carbine!!!! God Bless Joe
You didn't mention anything about the change in calibers. I believe the Swiss wanted a caliber larger than the original 7.65mm for military purposes: thus was born the ad-hoc 9x19mm.
I didn't mention it because it was not relevant to the video subject. Both the 1900 and the 1906 types were made in both 7.65mm and 9mm.
Jesus, a Luger with serial number 30 out of a batch of 40 guns. And I was thinking that some of my model cars and tanks are rare :D When I'll have more free time and $$$ in the future, I might as well start collecting something more "scarce".
Thanks Ian - great video. what would we do without you....and congrats for the 300K subs
Another great video! Keep up the excellent work, Ian! We Love It!
lol Hickok45 just came out with a video on the 1911/1911a1 today
Quiet rivalry? Would be cool to see a show with both arguing minutae of firearm design.
That's a fantastic video idea xD
We need a 2-liter challenge
Not even in same league. Ian is the consummate, well researched professional. Hickok's a bubba with guns.
True, hickock seems to brush up on the Wikipedia page before he makes a video on a gun. Ian just knows everything cause he's a robot.
ALL THE LUGERS! THE ALL LUGER CHANNEL... also the C-96.
Ian, great video as always. Very informative! I noticed something when you were comparing the '06 model to the P08. One of the smaller changes the German army requested seemed to include reversing the safety postition on the switch. Or that's what I think at least, looking at both of them side by side.
Extremely informative and well presented, your good at what you do due to no superfluous waffle and excellent research. Thanks for a great vid, well done! I must say 10 billion Luger’s has blown me away, so to speak.
I wish there really were '10 Billion' Lugers out there, one for every human on the planet with plenty to spare for the next two generations! LOL!
M1911 development, P38 development, and now Luger development. Wonder what iconic pistol next?
wow , this video was exactly one which makes me love ur channel. Go on like that :) greetings from germany , alex
Amazing craftsmanship. Great video
One dislike is from the management @ High-Point
chapiit08
Borchardt's ghost, lol
@@chrisjones6002 "Clearly inferior to my C93!"
Are the Lugers on that table part of a museum collection or your own?
Your videos are beyond excellent, thanks again for posting!
Just acquired my first Luger! A DWM made in 1920, .30 Luger. What a lovely piece of history. Definitely a very special and unique design.
You're in Luger heaven Ian!
did the germans also request the manual safety to be reversed? the safety lever is in upwards position on the german lugers while the swiss ones had them in downwards position with the non-blued part covered. Or did the germans request that part to be blued as well?
There were some various batches with the safety reversed, but that is beyond the scope of this video.
It's just a small detail I noticed while watching and it started to bother me a bit especially when you didn't mention anything about it (I think), thanks for the quick reply and clearing that up. Now I can sleep soundly at night. :D
A great video! But I wouldn't think such a major change as reversing the safety positions would be "out of the scope of this video". It's a major development change.
If you have a P08, you'll see that when the safety is ON (down) a blade rises up out of the frame and blocks the trigger linkage. When the safety is OFF (up), the blade retracts, the linkage is functional and the pistol can be fired. I noticed in the video, this blade was in the UP position regardless of the position of the safety control. I wonder about this and why Ian didn't explain it.
@@bstrachan8527 I was confused about this too. It turns out that on the Lugers that have a grip safety, the grip safety directly controls that blade (blade and grip safety are actually a single part). So you'll see the blade pivot down out of the way when you grip the pistol. On these grip safety guns, all the thumb safety does when activated is block the grip safety from being depressed.
Great video!!! Would have liked to see the later Swiss pattern gun with the different frame contour and different trigger, etc., but you are correct in considering these to be mostly cosmetic differences. Thanks!
Always interesting to listen to informative well structured and reliable stacks up well easy listening bravo
Here's a question for the luger-nerds from a friend of mine: My club has a pristine 1938 P08, but with a bad extractor. We have gotten hold of a new one (from some forgotten warehouse in Norway) and wonder if the pin holding it should be tapped out to the right or the left, or if it doesn't matter? Does Ian / @Forgotten Weapons know if it makes a difference?
If both sides of the pin hole are exposed, use the internal jaws of a vernier caliper to see which hole is larger by a bit, and it goes out that way. If both sides are the same, I'd expect it to push out either way.
Ian I have a random question that doesn't pertain to the luger. How hard would it be to redesign a MAS 49/56 to have a closed top and more modern magazine release?
Probably not too hard.
This was an awesome video on the Luger. Thanks so much for the history lesson.
Thanks, Ian, I learned something today about the Luger I never knew!
just curious about the unit cost for the handguns with a shoulder stock vs the STG 44 at time of manufacture as compared to the thompson. Also, was there ever an attempt to make the colt 1911 into a carbine like trench gun?
I would also like to know if there was ever a carbine 1911
Shoulder stocks, longer barrels, and 15 round mags have been available for 1911's for a long time. I have a set that was made before WW2. However, I do not believe they ever saw military service. I agree that a 1911 with an extended mag and shoulder stock would have been great in WW1. Not with the long barrel though. With only the shoulder stock attached, it is still a fairly compact package, and would have made a great gun for clearing the trenches.
crazyfvck a british pilot carried a 1911 with a shoulder stock in ww1
I will gladly pay you Tuesday, for a Luger today!
I love that you started early with the WW1 firearms in preparation for BF1. Keep up the good work Ian.
I love it when he starts talking about the history and development of a weapon.
17:21 "The various world wars that Germany got into" - Thats one way to put it! Thats kind of like saying you accidentally stepped into a mud puddle on your way to an important work meeting! lol Great video though, as always.
To be fair, the Great War was kind of like that. They didn't really know it was going to get that way, the underestimated the French and the Russians and the British desire to enter the war. The second of course was kinda all them, but again, Hitler probably expected no one to give a fuck about Poland (which is what we did at the end of the war and from 1798 to 1918 so the evidence is a little one sided), just like no one cave a fuck about the Czechs or Austrians. And then he probably didn't think the war with Britain would go on for so long, probably figured a peace in like '41). The Japanese similarly figured that if they smashed the American Pacific fleet and occupied some islands they would get a peace deal with America, a peace deal that probably hinged on just a few things like some Pacific Islands, staying out of the Philippines and Indonesian and opening up the oil market (which is exactly why Roosevelt had an oil embargo, to force them into a situation where he could get the rest of the country behind the war).
never forget holding my first luger at 12 years of age, man it was the power and kharma of a mighty machine, of course it was kriegsmarine.
Every one of Ian's videos that I started to watch, I ended up watching right to the very end. His manner of speaking is so captivating that I simply can not walk away.
Very nice bit of information on the Luger
Saw Jesse use this gun on El Camino reminded me of a squirt gun I had as a kid
i think that was an American gun, colt woodsman
@@waharadome it may have been the design was very similar to me
@@LegendoftheAce1 yeah they're both so satisfying to look at. Old but sophisticated look
Man..! My Uncle served in WWII Europe. He was always amazed at the ingenuity German engineering exhibited......... My Uncle was brilliant, ambitious mechanical genius.in civilian life and an Army engineer in WWII... After watching your video and being an un-credentialed engineer myself I can see why he thought that way
I love spending time with ya!
really enjoyed your Lugerman .45 ,this explanes it ALL
I think the Luger and the Nanbu are the sexiest looking pistols of all time.
Don't forget the C96 ;)
Kuddlesworth NA Hold up. The Type 14 Nambu is nowhere near the sexiness of te C96 and P08
How could I forget that. I love the shape and don't get me started on the ring.
I've had the pleasure of seeing on in a museum in the UK. It's really cute and the shape and lines on it are so pretty. It puts anything from that era to shame in terms of quality. The lines and cuts on it where literally perfect. Like C&C perfect. It looked like if you took the gun apart you could cut yourself on the 90 degree angles. It obviously wasn't a gun made towards the end of the war. It looked more like an officers pistol given to him for an award or something. It wasn't blued or anything it was just a light grey with perfect Japanese lettering. The Japanese lettering was just perfect. It's very hard to explain but you could tell so much work had gone into it. More then most guns. It was at IWM Duxford. It looked a bit like this but in perfect condition and no bluing. Also the magazine was fit and finish. It didn;t look like it had ever been used. I think I have a photo of it on my PC somewhere. I'll look for it. www.alamy.com/stock-photo-type-14-nambu-ww2-imperial-japanese-army-8mm-pistol-83461639.html Nope sorry couldn't find it.
Got to have all three!
Did you say 10 billion? or it just me?
10 billion was just an exaggeration.
What's a little hyperbole between gun enthusiasts?
Yes, six for every man, woman and child on the planet in 1900. That's the correct amount of Lugers!
Ebna Zahid Lugers Around 2,500,000 Luger pistols were made. According to this website.
He said 10 billion twice... and not in a joking manner.