Where are the boxing McDojos?

I actually threw 8 imagined basketballs through an also imagined basket while watching this video. I was promoted to a "9th degree black shoelace" and "Grandmaster of Shadowbasketball" for this. But maybe I just imagined that too.

My take is boxing has been branded as a sport for decades. To most uneducated people, they prefer a "deadly" fighting art "for za streetz" rather than learning "a sport". That's why japanese/chinese TMA that came later usually involve with McDojo rather than famous martial arts that's already available in the west

I love how boxing enviroment "forces" you to prove yourself, there's no rank system like belt colour or stuff like that, if you're good at boxing then you have to prove it in the ring

Who would have known that the key to learning how to fight would involve fighting 😂

Trying to fake boxing, wrestling, Jiu-jitsu, Muay Thai is like trying to fake speaking another language.

Who else hyped for the kengan ashura review coming up

That's interesting. In Jack Dempsey's book "Championship Fighting" he mentions something about how there are coaches who just teach people to score points and wait out the bell. So to him there was a clear distinction between true fighting and only trying to win a sport.

Cardio Boxing and Cardio Kickboxing: “Allow myself to introduce...myself.”

The more a martial art/combat sport focuses on full contact competitive bouts the less likely it is McDojos won’t get singled out.

Hey Ramsay Over here in the uk we have stuff like boxercise classes taking place at mainstream fitness gyms A lot of people think they are doing legitimate boxing based training and the gyms portray theses classes as such They are not it’s total nonsense If you don’t skip and don’t spar then I don’t believe you are doing anything that can use the word box in its description Mike 47 years Muay Thai of training/coaching

Full contact sparring against a resisting opponent being a large part of training is why wrestling and boxing is more legit.

1:19 That is exactly how most commercial Boxing Gyms work. It depends on who you ask if Boxing is still as effective or pure as it once was, as you know from reading Jack Dempsey's book. There are a lot of white collar people out there that pay high dollar for these kinds of Gyms, and they may even "Spar" with visiting pros who get paid to honestly just carry and play with them, and let them feel like they can hold their own in a ring. When they're really only better than garbage as you said in a previous video. In competition these Gyms often try to put their students up against soft touches or use their students as feeder fish for more serious trainers to pad their fighters' records. MMA Gyms are everywhere in almost every small town here in the states, but Boxing gyms are much harder to come by and good ones are even rarer still. As for skipping Rope, most successful Champions and Trainers I know of from the older 1-2 Belt eras say that you should do no more than 2 rounds of skipping, and anything more than 2 or 3 miles of roadwork a day is excessive and requires longer time off to recover. Most of them admit that you can, and that they often did exchange roadwork completely for more hours in the gym sparring, shadow Boxing and working the different bags, and some occasional or regular long walks and sprinting. Excessively long roadwork is one way that some fighters focus and isolate themselves for a "War" mindset as Marvelous Marvin Hagler put it, but really it's mostly present because so many fighters let themselves get comically out of shape through yoyo crash dieting.

About 7 years ago, I went to check out a title boxing gym that was close to where I worked. Short story long; it was basically a boxing themed Zumba class. There was no sparring allowed at all and no focus on technique, timing, reflexes etc.

Fist of all, boxing doesn't have colored belts. People enter a boxing gym to learn how to box and people enter a karatê dojo to get a Black belt, not to learn proper karatê. They assume, when they begin training, that a Black belt = fighting ability. If there is a demand, someone will provide what people want. People want to be considered fighters, but do not want to fight. People are deceived because they want to be deceived. I'm a shotokan karatê 4th Dan and I have a hard time to keep students (and even trainning partners), who often migrate to other instrutors as they can progress more quickly and with less bruising. I have a long love/hate relationship with karatê. I absolutely love karatê, but I hate its enviroment, its grading system, etc.

It's interesting that you would use basketball as an example here because, at least to some extent, the quality of play is actually suppressed by "tradition." There was a somewhat famous example on Girls Highschool Basketball from about a decade ago where the coach of a known weak team opted to use a sabermetric like analytical approach to the game. He realized that the best option his team had was to constantly employ a somewhat antiquated tactic called a "Full Court Press." His theory was that his team wasn't good enough to compete with modern manup or zone defense, so his goal was to make moving the ball up the court enough of a battle that they could get turnovers by draining the shot clock. Ultimately it proved to be very effective (although physically demanding and thus not optimized for star shooters). They managed to make it to nationals but the refs started calling sportsmanship fouls on them because the game they were playing didn't look enough like basketball. This type of "the way the game's supposed to be" mentality bleeds into NBA level play too. Until recently, when the Warriors started proving conventional wisdom wrong, the 3 point shot was drastically undervalued and thus if you were an aspiring pro player you would have been coached to transition your game away from it. Again, it was statistical analysis that allowed this tradition to be broken, not just players naturally improving the quality of play.

So at the end a traditional martial art without sparring is an ancient type of dance.

There are mcdojos for boxing it's basically just aerobic boxing which will make any Soccer mom act like she can throw hands lol

As many have pointed out, there are boxercise classes at regular gyms. There is also the explosion of boutique gyms which operate entirely on group classes. One of them here is what i suppose you could call boxing themed hiit. Based on their marketing and their pricing structure, i would be tempted to call it a boxing mcdojo.

The closest thing to "fake boxing" are boxfit classes but then again boxfit are very transparent to what they offer- theyre just their to give one a good sweat in and the people who take those classes are aware of that and just there to sweat it out.

I’ve been in a boxing mcdojo before, it was basically a fitness class with some guy who knew the very basics of boxing, and at the end we did 10 minutes on a bag and 5 minutes of ‘sparring’

I think the shortest answer is that a fist fight in front of thousands of viewers who are paying to see a beat down is the ONLY way to get a belt in boxing. No one can *give* you a belt in boxing. Really like the basketball analogy, though.

"No no no, Ramsey Dewey. You have not answered my question. I would like to join a boxing McDojo, and I am genuinely wondering where to find a place where I can do 100% junk training and still convince my friends that I do boxing. Do you have any recommendations?"

What do they serve in a boxing McDojo? Is it as good as McDonalds?

I went to a boxing gym with some very mcdojo elements as they had no idea about different martial arts and different types of guards and more modern stances and told me that i couldnt do them because they didnt work, but i still learned how to box quite well from there because they still taught great boxing

Just started kickboxing yesterday. Man, not only is it a real fighting style but it's a damn tough core workout too!

People play basketball, on DA STREETS!

Short answer; Business men. Being an asian man in the USA/Canada allows you to sell snake oil martial arts without question. It is ridiculous how rarely people actually look into what they are buying when it comes to Martial Arts.

The basketball analogy was freaking hilarious... a secret basketball master out there teaching basketball like movements without having the students actually PLAY basketball 😂😂😂 that's so true tho

My favorite KZhead nerd, love you Ramsey. Thank you for the videos.

Well I be damned I'm here less than a minute after this was posted

That basketball analogy is pure gold..hahahaha! In fact it would make a fantastic short film/sketch.

Thank you for answering my question that made me smile like a little girl

Very well put video, had wondered this myself. Thank you

Love this guy.

“ you can’t fake boxing “ ha! Very true sir.

For me the ropeskips helped me a lot with my foot work and cardio ... I practiced karate and my posture was really stiff but once I jumped to boxing I learned how to move around my opponet better as an offensive matter while at my karate school it was more about "HIT THE GUY AS HARD AS YOU AND RUN AWAY" self-defense matter, but in my IRL encounters the discipline that helped me the most was wrestling most people wont get up after they fall over their backs on hard concrete.

In Germany you can go to a pure boxing club for like 5-10€/6-12$ per month. Those are mostly oldschool boxing clubs, who work out and teach in school gyms, without fancy mat floors and cross fit area. Those clubs exist like 50 years, when boxing was a big sport in germany. If you want to go to a trendy or popular e.g. MMA or Kung Fu Gym, you can easily pay 50-100€/60-120$ per month.

Fighting is a science as well as an art when you have feedback and metrics. That means actual fighting.

I have a buddy who learned how to box by opening a boxing gym. I'm not exactly sure how to explain that, but it makes sense, somehow.

You can make a really weak slap look really cool by putting pencils between layers of wood or cinderblock before breaking them. You can't, however, fake getting punched in the face.

So maybe I'm a bit delusioned, or have simply been extremely lucky, but I have tried a number of martial arts, and all of them have contained lots of sparring. I don't recall ever doing forms that weren't used frequently in sparring. HEMA especially had a lot of guard positions and "special cuts", but all of them were used in both sparring and competition. Sure there were a lot of running around, doing push-ups and stretching but as the coach said, none of that makes you a bad fighter. We did it to make us better at sparring, so we wouldn't gas out after a couple of minutes. And as for styles, the main thing that seemed to change was the rules. It was the same throws in Judo, HEMA and Capoeira, the same punches, guards and kicks in point karate as in kickboxing. Because that's what worked in sparring. The main difference was what guard stances you used, and those were heavily dependent on style. Point Karate didn't allow attacks to the head so you didn't guard it the same way you did in kickboxing. In HEMA obviously the sword was the main focus, punches and kicks didn't score points, so you didn't do those other as a distraction, but once you got within grappling range, it was the same throws I learned in Judo just with a sword as an added obstacle. Capoeira was the one that was the least like the others, sparring was more a dance performance than a no-risk fight. Even them, the throws and takedowns I learned was very much like the ones I remembered from Judo, and I came to use a few of them in HEMA sparring later on. I haven't done any groundfighting, something I hope to remedy soon when gyms and classes starts up now after the pandemic. Though I suspect there are a lot of similarities between BJJ and Wrestling as well.

Perfect answer.

getting hit in the face is very humbling and a great wake up call

Been wondering the same thing as well coach. Hmmmm

I always spar with my friends and have almost no formal training besides kickboxing back in middle school and honestly the sparring makes u a whole lot better generally than anything else. Im going to a muay thai gym soon and well see how that goes

You need to check out this show called Hajime No Ippo 😂 you'd hate/love coach Kamegowas training methods.

I saw that title and immediately thought, "Senior centers".

Absolutely, boxing is for real because they put it to use. I started martial arts with traditional Karate, from Uechi Ryu school (or at least the interpretation of Uechi Ryu that my teacher's dad brought from Okinawa, as this was in Brazil). I was lucky that it was a very good school, my teachers were competitor in international contact karate, chinese boxing and kickboxing, they trained armed forces and police officers, and we did a lot of sparring and very little kata. After a couple of years I found I was quite capable of handling myself in combat situations when life put me in those (which in a late nineties and early 2000s Brazil was often enough), especially against multiple opponents because of some characteristic style choices. I also found out later, while sparring with boxers, that I had distances for head punches all wrong, as this was against the sparing rules for my karate style, and it took me a while before I was able to pick that up, lots of punches coming just short. My kick boxing friend would not let me kick when sparring though. Any martial art that puts you in a situation to try out the techniques against a non-compliant opponent will make you better at fighting, but that doesn't mean you won't have gaps in your game if you focus on only one of them.

Great question!

Hi Ramsey! Would you mind to do a video about how different types of weight effects your chance at winnig a fight. If there is difference beetween the two fighters weight how important if it is lean muscle mass or fat or or water or heavier clothes? I would like to hear your take on the topic.

My boxing school does has some kata'ish work :) its more of a frame to get beginners to do more slips, and duck unders instead of just hands but it really works well.

They're rare but exist. At least where I live (Australia) they tend to be regular gyms that have boxing classes added onto strength/conditioning, etc.

A thousand views, no dislikes Love it

"Making fight-like movements, thinking they are fighters".. Lol, so true :D

I think it's the simplicity of boxing that helps the most

Boxing took my martial Arts skill to the next level.Most martial artist could not deal with me after I implemented boxing into my Arsenal. Also wrestling made me much tougher and very hard to take down.

Kudos to you

I haven't watched the full videoyet but my initial thought is that the closest thing to a boxing mcdojo would be a gym that teaches cardio boxing. granted most places that teach cardio boxing don't bill it as actual boxing or self defense but it is taking boxing and putting in the position where you don't Spar and don't actually hit anyone.

So glad the place I do martial arts always drills that we must pressure test our techniques, we spar and do impact work. So glad it's not those dumb McDojos. Your videos also helped me realise the flaw in my techniques and my practising style.

At the gym I went to for a while you sparred first or second day there. You were expected to do a few rounds of sparring at least one day a week preferably 2 if you went 3 days or more a week. So you just more or less know whose better by just who wins

What do you think of the UFC Body Action System? Been looking at it for training at home but I can’t tell if it’s worth the investment. I have a floor punching bag and it’s ok but I hate I have to wait for it to stand up after a punch or kick. Thanks for the advice.

Hey, coach! I have a question that's been bugging me for a while. I've been interested in martial arts for a long time (trained at a "ninjutsu" school for a few years, but otherwise untrained) and your story about your student Roy has made me consider getting back on the horse once the pandemic clears up. Thing is, I have asperger's/high-functioning autism, so I'm kind of socially awkward. The reason this is relevant is because I figure that if I'm not talented socially, it's probably a bad idea to seriously damage my brain on top of that. So, I'm thinking about a compromise: while some brain damage is clearly inevitable with any amount of training, I figure that only training for a few years (to learn the basics) will result in less net trauma than a lifelong commitment would. The problem is that I wonder if a few years of MMA/boxing/etc. is enough for the basics to stick years down the line. Will three, four or five years of training (as an example time-frame) be enough for me to still be decently proficient later on? Or is getting rusty such a significant problem that I would have to train even longer if I want the basics to stick?

When I first started boxing the trainer got me in the ring and gave me a working over. As he explained later " I always give new comers a bit of pain, if they have the heart for it they'll be back next week

It's an interesting topic and your points are great. I think it's also about the grass roots type of people that get into the sport that keep it strong. For example here in the UK it's common for parents to choose to get a child into karate/TKD etc but don't know what they are looking at, so they can't identify a belt farm McDojo as apposed to a competent school. Boxing by comparison seems to be something that parents only tend to put a child into if the parent is very specifically a fan, or even an ex-practitioner. Typically they are much better educated on what they should be looking for and spending their money on. So boxing McDojos don't flourish from the easy money if you get what I mean. I think the closest thing I've seen in the sport is boxercise classes, but those at least don't tend to try to masquerade themselves as real boxing, so it's not so much of a issue. Side note nothing makes me more depressed than finding a western style kickboxing gym with the long trousers, a belt system, and no sparring/clinch that claims they teach Muay Thai. They don't please stop, call a spade a spade don't try and con people lol.

While searching for a boxing gym in my area, I have found a few places that brand themselves as boxing gyms but only offer fitness boxing classes with no sparring. That's pretty close to a McDojo imo. *I meant to type that these fitness boxing gyms in my area dont spar. They only do drills and bagwork and mitwork. The only places I can get actual boxing training in my area is at an MMA gym. I corrected this after people commented about it.*

Your comments are accurate. What motivated martial arts to change is membership revenues. I trained in tkd before it became an Olympic sport, I trained in kyokushin, boxing and kickboxing. Unfortunately, people do not like getting hurt for many reasons. As I got older, I like technical sparring but not hard sparring. Boxing has adopted this training also like boxing fitness or none contact boxing. If an individual wants to fight they will not go to these gyms. I’m not a fan of tkd poomsies nor karate katas. The important thing is to be physically active. A black belt is only a goal. I earned 5th dan in tkd, black in karate but I’m horrible in katas and poomsies but not in fighting. A black belt does not mean you are killer, it mean that an individual achieved a level of competence that your peers approve of in your discipline such as Katas, poomsies or fighting.

Boxing McDojos? Oh, you mean the cardio-boxing gyms!

I'm stealing your basketball analogy. That was perfict.

Hey Ramsey I just wanted your opinion if you train in more then 1 combat sport at the same time? If you could give your take it would be much appreciated

9:20 as both a dancer and a martial artist I agree with that metaphor.

As far as Mcdojos occuring in martial arts I think alot of that is because unlike with most other forms of sport like basket ball basebase and hockey the idea of actually getting a group of people together and trying to practice it on the street or in private jist for fun and trying to teach themselves within an informal context is seen as something which as either unacceptable or dangerous (which in alot of ways compared to those other sports combat sport have more so the potential to be dangerous to train and to practice with other people in an informal context.) however combat sport definantly has quite a different culture in regards to informal practice and training then those other sports.

thanks

Boxing should be the nucleus of any "self defense" program for men.

There are "executive" boxing programs and "cardio" boxing schools that actually don't allow sparring, they are boxing McDojos. This would kill the sport of boxing if we started having heavy bag punching competitions where judges graded work on the heavy bag like they do ice skating.

hey sir ramsey you mention that you are not an fan of using skip rope and roadwork, so do you have a better substitute for those workout?...

Brilliant! 😂😂😂

As someone that boxed for years I can say that skipping rope is useful to strengthen your calves, improve your rhythm, and teach you the boxer's hop.

The thing is: There are Boxing, Wrestling, and Jiu-jitsu McDojos, a lot more than you'd expect. Title Boxing of course, then various Professional Wrestling clubs, then most Jujutsu (Japanese) Dojos. I've actually encountered Blue Belts in BJJ that knew nothing about Grappling. I wrestled with them, and submitted them, even though my only submission experience comes from Kajukenbo (Danzan Ryu Jujutsu). I also happen to be a Collegiate Wrestler. The opposite is true as well, I've encountered BJJ White Belts who can submit me without even trying. I believe Sensei Seth and IcyMike have talked about the Watering down of BJJ, and in many Gyms that's true more than ever. It's sad that one of the best grappling arts on the planet is suffering this.

When I see that it’s uploaded 17 seconds ago 👀

No belt colors. No culty sensei. You get hit a few times you find out who you are very quickly.

For pro boxers, it's a job so they put in a LOT of time and have plenty of time since its all they do, but point taken. Its thought the intense cardio serves one well in deep water, IE the later rounds. Some guys dropped long road work and did longer sprints, 220's/440's for example.

I like the forms

Right on the money again! The boxing story was a very good analogy to show clearly to anyone why many martial arts were portrayed as the "best" self-defence to attract students, when in reality they had little to do (if any) with that since they didn't include any sparring. That was the mistake of many parents in the 80's % and 90's who sent their children to martial arts schools to learn how to protect themselves on the street which of course was a mistake but they didn't know any better. And the bs macdojos took advantage of their good will.

I immediately thought boxercise and cardio kickboxing would fit this definition

I'm bad about not adding anything constructive too often, and Coach is truly a Good Lad, so I'll try and add useful corroborates (WWCD or WWDD?): learning gymnastics and/or any kinda vigorous dance *will* raise your fight game. If ya have time & are able to physically, I suggest 10/10. I do basic acrobatics, but either works.

EVERYWHEREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE greetings Holland.

Hell!! Where I'm from in Tennessee there are hardly any boxing gyms left anymore. I mean not even at the YMCA's like when I was a kid. It's like they've all been replaced with bjj or mma. Judo is also pretty popular here in East Tennessee but there are only like one or two real deal boxing gyms. It's really sad actually because boxing here in the West back in the day was pretty much the main thing that was usually passed down from father to son and then you go to the YMCA and golden gloves. And if your really good and enjoy it you get into the Amateur and then maybe professional.

Boxing is a traditional martial art. It has all the elements that were present in sword and pistol duels in the 19th century. These elements are: seconds, the referee and his clothing, commands that are similar to commands in fencing with swords, strikes that are applied not below the waist and only the part of the hand that is wearing a glove. In late dueling fencing - only a blow with the blade of a sword. Throwing out a towel is also a tribute to tradition - the duel began by throwing out a handkerchief, here it is a sign that everything has gone too far and we must stop.Previously, a Boxing match was held until one of the opponents could no longer stand on his feet - a complete analogy with a duel. Even duels on swords sometimes had breaks in time - like boxing rounds. In the beginning, the British switched duels from swords to pistols, to equalize chanes. Then they did Boxing, because they realized that you can not just kill people. Ramsey, as a Brit, you can be proud of your traditional gentlemen's martial art-Boxing.

Cardio boxing is definitely a thing here in Canada. Legit boxing clubs are quite rare here I would say.

I just use a bag at home now. Ive done sparing in kick boxing and shotokan karate , ive been spacked in the jaw a couple of times when in the forces. Fighting on the street is totally different go boxing in a ring.

I think the fact that boxing has no belts has made it extremely resistant to McDojo syndrome. Without belts, there's no real way of proving your worth other than being a good fighter. TMA just has not been good at quality control. It's actually very similar to the Stormtrooper Corps in the Star Wars Expanded Universe. The quality of stormtrooper recruits was very hit or miss. Their fighting capabilities depended on the academy they went to.

Bad news, Ramsey. There are actually Boxing mcdojos. In my area there are some clubs selling themselves as boxing gyms but all they do bag work for an hour and have zero sparring.

I never thought about road work making one mentally strong

You could say the closest equivalent of a boxing McDojo would be "boxercise " classes. Whilst they are great for cardio and you may even learn how to throw a decent punch, they don't incorporate sparring. But then no-one in their right mind who does just boxercise classes would claim to be a good boxer.

I mildly disagree on the final point of the video. That mentality does exist in some TMA communities, but I think it's perfectly plausible to honor and respect the traditions of the art while still making it your own and being open to learning from other arts and other people. That's how these arts were practiced historically, people added on new techniques all the time. No matter the style of Karate or Kung Fu, for the most part, one person didn't come up with every movement in the system on their own. Most of these styles exist in their current form as the result of each generation of people leaving their mark on the style and adding something new. The karate practiced today is probably very different from what karate looked like 200 years ago, as an example.

I think boxing students should also be wary of Mc-trainers. I am a weekend warrior at best, still consider myself a beginner but I dedicate a good portion of time to sparring. I notice one instructor will be teaching me flashy punches and have me do drills simulating impossible scenarios. I realize if I continue with him, I would get myself seriously hurt in a match. I switched to another instructor, and this one gauges my level, and makes sure I spend enough time getting accustomed to the basics before slowly ramping up the difficulty. He will also point out things that people do on pad work as establishing textbook fundamentals, but then adjusting it to a live scenario.

Boxing McDojo? Where would I find one? I even had a hard time to find a boxing gym at all where I live. I can find BJJ and MMA gyms everywhere but a pure boxing gym? I finally found one and probably to your surprise, we don't get on the ring at all. You can only after you get to the advanced level, are deemed ready and have the equipment for that. I had been going there for a year before the pandemic lock down and we followed the same routine every time, heavy bag, conditioning, footwork, techniques (offense and defense) and that's almost enough to kill me every time. Real hard work.

It kinda seems like everything that he said about traditional martial arts can be applied to boxing too. There are specific ways to move and strike in boxing, there's "a uniform", there are actions you do before a fight, there are rules, there traditions to be upheld, and there are those who want people to think that they know how to box, for individual profiteering. Mcdojos are easier to establish and run in the traditional martial arts context though, not because people in traditional martial arts don't fight (what lol. Most traditional martial arts have some sort of a competitive aspect, or pressure testing within the school), but because of the mysticism, esoterics associated with it, and people's expectations of what they WANT to see in a traditional martial arts class. I am a Buddhist and to me, the spiritual side of Oriental martial arts is kind of a fair enough thing, but that spirituality is for the individual alone, it's not gonna translate into physical abilities. But, many people expect to do very little to get a lot back, and that's why the spirituality and philosophical concepts of traditional martial arts allow for easier creation and existence of schools whose syllabus and methods have nothing to do with the original purpose of surviving in combat. Or fighting in a ring

i actually find traditional martial arts very useful in a fight. not for hurting or defence, but because some forms/styles can develop some seriously INSANE speed and agility.

How much would MMAs grappling work if groin shots and eye gouge and headbutts were added? If you can one of your demonstrations it would be amazing