Outcry From Electricians Over Fuse Upgrade Rules
There’s been an outcry in the trade over changes to the rules governing incomer fuse upgrades…
… an electrician is found guilty over the electrocution of a tradesman…
…and sparks lose their patience over the increasing amount of packing on electrical products…
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Show Notes 🗒️
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Time Stamps ⏱
00:00 Electrical News Weekly 18th March 2024
00:43 Outcry from electricians over rule changes for fuse upgrades
01:54 ECA's new technical bulletin - Bonding of Commercial Kitchens
02:04 New Zealand electrician guilty after tradesman electrocuted
03:25 Question of the week
04:07 YEPIC - A new app for tradespeople
04:30 Metrel introduces safety tester for solar panels
04:56 Selectric develops range of kinetic switches
05:20 Electricians lose patience over excess packaging
05:53 We want to hear your stories
06:17 Thanks to our premium partners
07:34 Challenge words and winners
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Too much packaging is a problem everywhere, not just on hardware. It's hard to buy a sandwich on the road without a sharp knife to open all the wrapping. The earth wire connected to the live supply reminded me of the time we moved into a house in Essex in the 1980s. The kitchen 3 spotlight lamp fitting was ugly and one lamp was out anyway, so I decided to fit a fluorescent strip instead. After isolating the circuit, I removed the fitting and found that the metal frame was connected directly to the looped live. The previous owner had apparently died youngish of a heart attack- I've often wondered about that.
@MervynPartin...... how odd... i had exactly the same issue around 2 months ago where the 2ft flu was connected to the live loop, but add salt to the wound, it was fed with crumbly 2.5mm very old rubber flex.
@@merlin5476 It's quite horrifying, really.
My boys mother had a housing association tenement house in Glasgow and they upgraded the gas combi boiler but left the water feed on and it leaked out getting the floor wet and it apparently connected to a faulty circuit in the house below. The hall radiator then would give you an electric shock, I used to repair old TV’s and I know a proper shock and it was a full shock. My young son described it as a sore tickle. The HA electricians reearthed the radiator but it was still live and they couldn’t understand how you could receive a shock from an earthed radiator and I had to point out to them that the radiator was properly earthed it wasn’t live, it was the wet floor that was live and touching the radiator completed the circuit.
I have a quinetic switch in my kitchen. Its used to switch on/off the waste disposal which was fitted some years after the kitchen, and avoided the need to drill through the marble worktop
I remember many, many years ago watching an LEB engineer replace the existing 30amp cut out with a 100amp PME head. He laughed when I asked if it was safe and said the cable would get a bit warm but it would last longer as a result.
Regarding packaging, I was told that it for for the suppliers internal logistic, all items must have a barcode, some items can not be supplied with a barcode than the need for a small plastic bag where the barcode then can sit. So when you order 249 you get 249 small bags with an item in each, if you order 250 you get a box with 250 items in, life sucks.
yes, Octopus is providing week long training for stage 2 and fuse upgradation
Thanks for the info. 👍
Part of the job role at octopus energy
Might be worth reaching out to Octopus to get someone from them to explain how it all works on their end?
Nah. That would require responsible journalism.
Octopus energy are trading insolvent .they also use a shoddy company called HASTE ltd who are breaking many laws like the electricity regs 1989 and the gas @ct 1954 among others , mainly,picking on single women , the elderly etc . OFGEM. Are complicit and at odds with the monopolies commission as their chairman Jonathon briefly also sits on the board of HMCTS……work it out
Those selecteic wireless switches will be awesome for installing under unit lights in kitchens and probably outdoor lighting systems too like patio lightiñg . Looking forward to seeing them being used
Already using them....Quinetic range from TLC Using them for about 4 years now
If you install the generation equipment (PV/battery inverter) at the far end of the bus-bar then you can't overload the bus bar without also overloading the main cut-out fuse.
What?
Saving so much energy we need to put in bigger fuses
Yes, because the hydrocarbon energy we're saving didn't go through the electric fuse
A 7kw EV charger might be problematic even though there are plenty of 7kw shower heaters around.
@@rogerphelps9939 indeed. Just dont get home charge the car and have a shower while the misses cooks dinner
Yes. I have a 13A switched fused spur to my garage with some 13 amp weattherproof sockets. I decided to granny charge both my old Leaf and my new Enyaq at the same time. That is at least 20 amps because the freezer in the garage runs on it too. It must have worked for a few hours but then I couldn't understand why the garage door didn't work. The fuse in the switch was truly cooked and then I twigged!@@ks-hg5vo
@@ks-hg5vo Only an idiot would do that. The car charges at night at £0.075 per KWh. Though to be fair the car could be a V2G setup so be pumping power back into the grid as well all the energy for the cooker and shower. Or the fixed solar battery and or time switching battery could carry the load preventing any grid load. My garage is starting to look a bit like a power station (which technically it is) in its own right.
Ironmonger and daffodil, great news as always OG Joe
For every fuse octopus upgrade it's one place up the cue for everyone else. My u loping was carried out by a steer lighting company and octopus's contractor arrived tge same day to fit the 3phase meter and fuses.....
Watch UKPN network area see an increase in smell of burning and fire calls !.The installer will take the risk so Octopus doesn’t need too.
I recently had my meter upgraded, they broke the fuse housing which is fine - it happens, national grid came out to replace it and have taken my 80a and fitted a 60a which is less than ideal. They've sent me a link to fill in as they had no records of my EV charger fitted in 2015. The charger is fitted about 2ft under the fuse and it's have expected them to fit like for like and not drop my potential by 20a which now we are close to the new fuse limit.
It is interesting how Octopus are allowed to increase the main cut out fuse possibly to 100amps and the other lots are stating if there is PV or Battery Storage that it may need to be reduced from 100amps to 80 as the average domestic CU/DB is only rated to 100amps. Are people in the industry not talking amongst themselves about these things before they present it to the public/trade en mass? Likewise are PV and Battery Storage Installers told to check the main cut out fuse and advise that it should be downrated? Catch 22 there as it is illegal for a full scope spark to open the main cut out and check the fuse size but the DSO/DNO/MO do not always put a lable on the cut out stating the actual fuse size rather than leaving the OEM label which is 100amp MAX. Will this give Gaz a whiff of BS7671 18thAM3
Yeah, lots to unravel from this. 🤔
It isn't a catch 22 regarding the fuse as whilst it is illegal for the electrician to change it, the electrician can easily comply with both the requirement for a smaller fuse AND not breaking the law by not changing the fuse by contacting the DNO and having them do it. Just because the process around changing the fuse is cumbersome, that doesn't give the right, or make it legal for the electrician to change it. Change it yourself and you carry a small risk of prosecution. Now there is a debate to be had around whether an electrician should be able to change the main fuse, but there isn't going to be any change to the regulation anytime soon and I don't want this thread to become that debate. What I am saying, in summary, is it isn't a catch 22, the two requirements are not mutually exclusive and both can be complied with. It is just a bit of a pain in the proverbial.
The regulations - as written down in BS7671 - take primacy over what can and can't be done regarding the electrical installation, not Octopus' opinion or views. The obligation is on the electrician doing the work to ensure it is compliant to BS7671 and it is quite clearly specified in those regs what is required in respect of additional sources of electrical power feeding through the CU. In order to meet the regulation, you can either a) Downgrade the main fuse and or b) Upgrade the CU to handle the higher current. It's a binary choice. The BS7671 regulation must be complied with. The Building Regs require it. I do take your point about not being able to obtain the main fuse's value without breaking the seal. I doubt the DNOs have a record of what fuse is used against every property, I just can't see them maintaining those records, and even if they are, the accuracy will undoubtedly be in question, so the fuse carrier is going to have to be opened to ascertain its rating. The DNO is going to have to accept they are going to have to do more call-outs to check the fuse rating on behalf of the electrician. Either that or somebody changes the law. Good luck on that! I can't see MPs with accountancy and law degrees giving a stuff about this topic, even if they can get their heads around it, which I am sure most of them cannot. They are not going to give this parliamentary time.
@@deang5622Something for the ENA (Energy Networks Association) and ESQCR (Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations) to get envolved in I assume as some DSO/DNO/MO decisions are outside of the scope of BS7671. It is also interesting to note that BS7671 is used in other countries outside of the UK like like Qatar, Malta etc.
One option is to fit a fused sw with an 80 fuse? Or a 2nd cut out? I was working on a digital billboard the other day that had 2 cutouts in series before the meter 3in apart🤷
It seems world wide the standards of Electrical Workers is falling. More needs to be done as an Industry to keep people safe from the dangers of Electricity
Excessive packaging could be a breach of The Packaging (Essential Requirements) Regulations 2015. For offences committed after March 2015 there are unlimited fines. This is regulated by Trading Standards, so complain to them if your products are over packaged. These regulations require amongst other things for packaging to be minimal, necessary to maintain safety , hygiene and acceptance of the product, and manufactured to permit reuse or recovery in accordance with specific requirements.
I reckon the packaging thing is because we're so dishonest, (collectively). OEMs need to do two main things; 1. Protect the product in transit, (and in the production). 2. Protect the OEM from scabby people that break a product through deliberate or negligent misuse and take it back expecting a refund. Or simply use it once and return it to save money. Think about it, why would they add all that costly packaging if they didn't need to?
Why are the national grid involved in service upgrades?
Good question. 🤔
They are a DNO in some areas (including here in West Wales)
“National Grid” is a brand - National Grid Electricity Distribution is a DNO (they took over Western Power Distribution)
@@bdh_555 right I see. Appreciate the info.
@@jmybuild thanks
So one needs a training course to change a Fuse. ??????? We are qualified electricians. Suspect the course involves more regulations.
upgrade to a 100amp on a looped service-twice!!
DBs are rated at 100A but so are Henley blocks, so are the fuses going to be derated to protect those too?
Allowed to upgrade the company fuse eh? ...I can't see this ending well! ...I can see the need for an AVR + UPS (like I had back at Crete) ...I foresee grid voltage of 190 at peak times (just like back at Crete)........
general comment: great to have an electricians news magazine
More to the point, re: upgrading the fuse, IS IT LOOPED *FROM* another property... you can't tell without access to DNO records
Something that's concerned me. Most of the properties here, built '82, are looped and there's no indication on the final one that the supply is shared. Original fuses are 80a with 16mm² tails but several now have 25mm² tails and two power showers including the house looped from mine
He got off light, 8 months? And not even in prison...
Octopus can upgrade a fuse to max rating of 80A within NGED region subject to certain criteria being met
A 9kw heat pump requires only around 3kw from the supply so no main fuse upgrade should be necessary even taking turn on surges into account.
Most are soft start inverter driven.
I wouldn't worry about octopus they say one thing then do the opposite, they said they were accepting PV installs that weren't done by mcs installers, two of my customers called octopus and they were insisting on an mcs certificate. There will be a big brown envelope falling on someone's desk, to grease the wheels of progress 😂😂
Ironmonger and daffodil
Well now you see the upcoming problems with heat pumps. Get your EV car plugged in during the cold winter nights and your air source heat pump working at 1 to 1 and hot cables or a blown main fuse. No doubt Network UK will replace it with a large invoice !
Just get a smart meter, they will put in an isolator for free. Also if you go direct to the manufacturer (my case Ohme), they use AES anyway who are approved to pull the fuse anyway.
I assumed they would, but they didn't for me.
Nope, Octopus, Scottish Power, and Eon definitely don’t in Norfolk. Customer has to pay.
They did for my mum and dads place.
they didnt for me, devon.
Offer a cup of tea and a few biscuits and ask nicely, majority of the engineers will oblige with an isolator, literally 15mins extra on the job time
ironmonger and fractious?
daffodil 10 layers good luck to all
Great guesses, listen to next Monday's show to see if you got it. 👍
one word is sip
ironmonger and daffodil
Anvil and Daffodil.
Anvil, and daffodil
Anvil and Daffodil
I wonder if kinetic switches would be safe to use in a bathroom.
Don’t see why not
What's the voltage generated by the kinetic action? Defo lower than 50V, so I'd say yes.
Ironmongers and daffodil
Daffodil and anvil
Daffodil!
Anvil!
Ironmonger & daffodil
Ironmonger, daffodil
Anvil and daffodil
Daffadil and Anvil
Ironmongers daffodil
Ironmongers Anvil?
patience ironmonger
Ironmonger’s idialect?
anvil and daffodil
IT world has horror stories of excess packaging but one springs to mind - licence codes. These weren't preprint rather generated on the fly, when requested. They (20+) came one per single sheet of A4, in it's own foam lined cardboard box, then 5 boxes bundled in a large box and all large boxes banded to a pallet. You read that what should have been one single piece of A4 came on a PALLET
anvil, daffodil
Anvil & daffodil
Anvil & daffodil.
Anvil daffodil
Anvil & Itching....
Vision daffodil
Fractious and daffodil.
Foul, daffodil
Daffodil, iron monger
are you deleting my comments?
Absolutely not sir. 😃
@@efixx thank you it must be my end.
I’m sorry that kiwi ain’t no sparks and should go to jail not left at home with his left hand
Anvil and Daffodil
Anvil and daffodil
Anvil & daffodil
Anvil and Daffodil
Anvil and daffodil
Anvil and daffodil
Anvil and Daffodil
Good guesses Mike, maybe you'll be a winner! 😃