Electricians from a major energy company are being allowed to upgrade the incoming fuse by National Grid…
…a contractor who charged a woman £182 to upgrade a fire detector is found guilty of fraud…
…and Siemens unveils what’s being dubbed a circuit breaker from the future…
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Show Notes 🗒️
Should Electricians Cut Fuse & Meter Seals? 👉 kzhead.infonACI2iX2w4M
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Time Stamps ⏱
00:00 Electrical News Weekly 11th March 2024
00:46 Electricians from major energy company now allowed to upgrade incoming fuses
02:04 Man fined for illegally undertaking restricted electrical works
03:03 Electrician charged for fraud after fitting unnecessary smoke alarm
03:47 Installers risk their lives by not following safety procedures
06:15 Check out our free safe isolation training modules
06:25 Siemens unveils circuit breaker from the future
07:51 We want to hear from you
08:09 Thanks to our premium partners
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As someone who works for the DNO up north, that is a very bad idea to allow meter operators to upgrade the fuse, the reason for the fuse rating are more then just 'load balance' of the network, the incoming cable size especially here up north we have properties fed by 2c 0.0225 in/sq (~13mm2 ) and if the property is looped internally or externally to neighbouring properties needs to be considered, along with the current ELI to ensure it within spec. All these things need to be taken into account before just upgrading the main fuse and most fuses that aren't already at 100A are due to these reasons. To upgrade the fuse there are several things needed to be checked and 99% of the time it will require a reservice back the the mains cable/ de looping properties.
Yeah, there is a lot to unpack from this...
Do you guys get 100A for private individuals in the UK? In france its 36KVA max (50ish Amps)
I think the people will have been trained, the DNOs need to concentrate on unlooping, my supply too almost a year to unloop!
@@bladeoflucatiel Meter capacity is 69KVa which yes is normally supplied by a 100A fuse carrier, however the fuse itself could be 60, 80 or 100A fuses. I suppose this is sized as @tannky93 suggests above - it depends on the cabling / local capacity and other factors.
@@bladeoflucatielI have 3 x 100Amp now after a free 3 phase upgrade done during unlooping.
Here in NL they used to certify external companies to service the main fuse. For a while, they also contracted external companies to perform up and downgrades. This has turned out to be a very, very bad idea, which has caused problems I'm still running into to this day. One issue I've run into many times is a big company with the funds and means to get certified for contracting work, then hiring unqualified untrained cheap labor to preform the work. They gave the poor guys a folder with pictures and a step-by-step guide of what to-do. The poor guys had no idea what they were doing or how-to work safely.
The dno allowing one agent to upgrade fuse unchecked sounds really dodgy and seriosly undermines comercial competition.
upgrading incoming fuses on an aging network, standby for lots of LV faults
If you want to be out renewing services until 3am every stand by you can cover mine 😆
In Sweden all changes of incoming fuses are done by the customers electrician. We go online and apply for a new fuse size and when it gets approved by the grid owner we just swap the fuses. We’re not allowed to change the fuse sizes without that approval.
Sounds like a sensible system
DSOs in Finland do the same, though we don’t install smaller services than 3x25A anymore, so the only upgrade possible is either to 3x32A or 3x63A if the panel is rated for it.
@@sstorholm 99% of the meter panels in Swedish houses have DII diazed fuse holders so 3x25A is the maximum. In businesses it's usually DIII which can go up to 3x63A.
@@mrfrenzy. Probably same here!
The selected words of the week are nursing and bunion . And as always thank you very much. It's really fun to see the electricity news, I appreciate it very much.
Aw, thanks, I love this comment every week. 😊
I was wiring my radio equipment to a switched spur in a plant room in the new Heathrow Terminal 2. The electrical contractor attended, to make the circuit safe, with a padlock to secure the relevant MCB, and a box with two more padlocks. The lock-off padlock key went in the box, with two more padlocks to secure the box, such that neither I or the leccy could unlock the box alone, to get to the lock-off padlock key. I suggested that since it would only take five minutes for me to wire our equipment to the fused spur, he should hang around until I had finished, so we could jointly remove the lock-off padlock, and I could switch on the equipment to test it. He agreed. As I removed the faceplate, the earth lead fell off...it had been signed off by a NICEIC-qualified operative...
On the loose wire... a good electrician tightens, shakes the wire in all directions, tightens again and then tugs down to verify. On the app controlled breaker, if you can't lock it outb100% like you guys did, I doubt industrial settings will allow it.
Solid state breakers certainly have a lot of advantages of speed, multiple functionality etc but what is their failure mode & how fail safe are they? There's something very reassuring about a 3mm physical contact separation in a conventional unit. Semiconductors often fail short circuit...
there was some mention of an additional electromechanical cutout. i guess the ideal combination is, interrupt the current with the solid state device just to reduce wear on the mechanical contacts, but still use them for safety
Bunion and vaping, great news as always OG Joe 👍💪
Great guesses, thanks Sean. 😃
Why does _„Bunion and Vaping“_ sound to me like the name of an English railway station? 🙃 (I mean; We already have one named _„Bat and Ball“_ 🏏 so why not? 😋)
As a non-electrician who follows the industry, this seems dangerously anti-competitive. Octopus are a decent company but if they're going to start allowing them to do this there needs to be some national certification and licensing program open to all electricians.
Slightly misleading from the start. The electrician didn’t get charged with fraud for upgrading a heat alarm for £182.00. He got charged as never actually fitted it the first place. If he did install it, then it wouldn’t have been fraud.
“Jedburg” court lol
Oop, did I mispronunciate again?
Why are they allowed to increase the main cut out fuse size? Do Octopus engineers have the training to pull the main cut out fuse? Do they have the correct stage 2 PPE? Will they reseal the main head afterwards? Will they makae sure that all terminals have the correct Torque applied when the finish? Why are Octupus allows to cut seals when a full scope electrician is told it's illegal? What happens when an Octopus engineer/technician damages the main cut out?
All very good questions...
@@efixxWhen my supply was unlooped and upgraded to 3 phase the meter installer (through Octopus) installed the meter, isolator and fuses....
Are they SIP? 🤔
They can be trained to do all that safely what is a greater concern is them upping the fuse on a cable that cannot take the extra current. We've all heard of the shoddy work meter goons do when installing fart meters.
@@andrewjames3908I totally agree 👍🏼
Svelt Bunion - great update! 👍🏼
Surely that has to be anti competition if the network allows only one company to upgrade the fuse... So you can either A go with an electrician down the road but you will have to wait 3 months and will cost £300 to upgrade the fuse or go with Ocopus Energy and they can do it within a week as they can upgrade the fuse as part of the job at no extra cost... The danger is your local sparky to compete will start upgrading the fuse without understanding the consequence.. Really bad idea, either open it to everyone with permission from the DNO or nobody..
I'd go with nobody... even though I am a 'cut the seal' kind of guy... the DNO are the only ones who (hopefully) have the correct records. Who's to say, even if there's a single concentric at the cutout with 16/25mm PEN and L cores, that it's not looped from a neighbour with a sh*tty old cable and connections that haven't been tightened since it was the municipal electricity undertaking!... Dangerous move
Let's hope the Siemens breaker is better tested and better thought out than the Hager Smart AFDDs are...
I had a bit of a close call last week, was replacing a fish key switch that had failed, I isolated the breaker for said circuit, lights go out, was good enough for me on a Friday night job. Took the switch off, hooked the new cables up to the new switch, only for one side of the lights to turn on. Oops 2 breakers fed the switch, one for each switch. Happy I have insulated boots and insulated driver. Morale of the story safe isolation is good practice and rushing to get a job done isn't a great idea.
I'm not exactly enamoured of the idea of complex, highly proprietary programmable breakers being installed into electrical systems. It seems to me that there is a lot that could go wrong, and once you start adding in things like wireless connections and apps, it rapidly gets highly complex. Personally I think protective devices ought to be only as complex as they need to be to do the required role, and should most definitely not be dependent on a phone app to configure.
You make some fair points, if it was anyone but Siemens I'd be extremely dubious but their kit is usually incredibly well thought out and rock solid. It's an interesting one to explore further...
@@efixx Siemens may have an _excellent_ reputation for electrical kit (The Renfe Serie 103 Velaro: I rest my case! 🚄🇪🇸💯👍) but that *doesn't* mean it's infallible. ☝ The _Stuxnet_ virus carried a firmware payload that was targeted at a specific model of Siemens PLC, and the infected PLCs happily accepted the malicious firmware image without any advisory to the operators - Even that the PLCs firmware had been upgraded. The equipment being controlled by those PLCs experienced a lot of costly damage of course. 💸 I can see that Siemens will (Hopefully) be armouring this new line against open world attacks...But no internet connected RCBO developed by Siemens will ever have the same level of access security as the passive RCBOs I have in my CU. Anyone can turn them off of course...But *only* if they are physically in front of the CU when they do it! ⚡🔐👍
If they have an open API then that’s fine - interested to know what they’ll connect to - WiFi? ZigBee? Powerline?
@@efixxHager AFDD's, anyone..?
I hope Siemens have done a better job than the similar WiFi-enabled no-name one mikeselectricstuff recently did a demolition job on.
Efixx, your understanding is incorrect, OE accredited and authorised employees working on behalf of the supplier arm of the company are permitted to upgrade fuses to 80A (max) subject to select criteria being satisfied. General electricians working on behalf of OE are not permitted to undertaken to works.
I worked for SSE as a meter fitter and Only the DNO were able to upgrade the service fuse
bunion and vaping, i did wonder at first thinking it was an odd description of a standing pose and a bit off topic 🤔
186 quid for an unnecessary smoke detector, was it artisan ;)
If it was fitted for £186.00, it’s not fraud. It was only fraud as he never fitted it in the first place
@@Daves-vj6oe that was the joke
Great video love hearing the news I think the words are Bunion and vaping Very random 😂
So ...replace the main fuse with this ? ...can be operated remotely by supplier ? ... 1) it will be installed by badly trained "engineers " 2) only certain areas will have the signals to operate it 3) your supplier could turn off your power remotely Being that so many people are at the moment in rather heated discussions with their suppliers about "estimated " bills ,I find this worrying
I work for them! I’ve not been informed or instructed on this .I won’t be upgrading any fuses.
That's not strictly true what you said about electricians having to be on the Safe Electric register to complete works. The work that charlatan was doing would require you to be on the RECI register (and be insured) but if you are not running a new circuit then you don't have to be. For instance if you are replacing light fittings or sockets then being a Level 6 electrician is enough to cover the work.
Thanks for the info, our scriptwriter's biscuit privileges have been temporarily revoked. 🍪
It's mad how Siemens can make a pioneering circuit breaker yet their PLC software looks and acts like it's written on an 80's Tandy laptop. They don't make sense.
Would anyone uprate a protective device on a circuit where the characteristics of the supply capacity and conductor size is unknown?
Presumably that bit has to be pre-approved and the DNOs have the technical specifications. I would also expect the installation electricians will have special training too.
My house cut out only has a 60amp cut out you cant upgrade that to any larger like the 60/80amp ones . the concentric overhead cable cant have a dia any more than 10mm.
Siemens breaker, it's Siemens so it'll do what's on the label and do it reliably for a long time, but that still doesn't fill me with confidence. It'd be interesting to see exactly what is used for the actual switching to see how they have (presumably have) addressed semiconductors breaking down and conducting even when they shouldn't.
Yeah. When I switch a breaker off I want to hear a big clunck and know some muppet with a smartphone isn't going to switch it back on again. Sounds like it could be good for faults but need a manual part too.
I recon a lock off kit is great value for money considering it could save a life .
vaping bunions, great show
for the scotland smoke-alarm guy, I hope he at least planned to provision an interlinked heat alarm. interlinked alarms are a legal requirement in Scotland and a heat alarm is the correct choice for a kitchen, not a smoke alarm.
I would imagine in industrial settings if you can't put a physical lock on it, it will not be allowed.
I just had my main fuse upgraded. 3 weeks for someone to inspect the fuse. 1 month for someone to change the fuse. 1 month for someone to upgrade the fuse to meter tails. Madness. At least it was done for free.
Jeez... meanwhile if you buy a new TV the next day a guy will knock on your door asking for a "loicense"
I work with various solid state controls like SSR's, inverters, crowbars. Etc etc. They are not foolproof and do fail. I do not believe the new device will isolate to an acceptable standard. Nice features to be able to control it through an app and maybe a new security backdoor for the malevolent among us.
So wait, this sentron thing, is it like what tuya has been doing for a while now? Is this just another case of a brand getting up with the times?
For someone who started with building electronic circuits as a hobby, and then moving on to purely electrical work. I always found the electrical industry very primative( just switches and wires). It always baffled me why there was so much resistance against separating the two fields. In my mind a circuit is a circuit, there is no such thing as electrical circuit and a electronic circuit, it's the same thing. At college we skipped over any thing related to a transistor or a diode!!! With electronic components you have much better control over the electricity. With my basic electronics knowledge I feel like a magician, compared to most electricians. But because of regulations, I cannot practice my "dark art" with normal electrics! I feel like there is a lot of resistance to "new"(for me old) technologies.
Seems to me that people have forgotten the ; KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. More complexity means more costly repairs. As an example, look how complex auto mobiles are; and they are not cheap to repair and maintain. They are riddled with complex expensive electronics.
@@jamesan2517 as someone who builds and designs electronic circuits, I do agree to some extent. I learnt to build analogue electronics. I have seen so many implementations of circuits that use microcontrollers( basically a small computer, on a chip). Some of those circuits can be much simpler and more reliable with just a few discreet components( transistors and diodes and so) on). It's like the designers have become lazy and just program a general purpose microcontroller, to do stupid things like flashing a LED. With the older electronics it's all repairable!!!! And very cheap to do so. I regularly bypass parts of modern circuits, with my custom repairable designs.
I have had similar experience and appreciate your concern but was always wary of anything electronic that could fail in so many ways and so any device should be tested and tested and tested and have approval by some authority. It was always comforting that distribution provided pretty good protection even if it was a bit crude. I am still in awe at the simple solar inverter and the electronics behind that. And the ships like aircraft carriers that have electric drives (from on board generators) and electronic control.
@@ambassadorfromreality1125So, rolling out new technology, before it's completely validated, is completely and utterly stupid. And, Asking the population , to pay double, for items that have a worse specification than their predecessors. Is this immoral and insane.
@@jamesan2517I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you be clearer
The French have a single main RCBO, called a _disjoncteur différentiel_ in the consumer unit acting as both a double-pole isolator and RCBO. This is _adjustable_ to the maximum amps draw of the property. In apartments it replaces the main fuse. The DNO in France adjusts this to the current rating of the property. These are available in the UK and can be fitted to any system by any electrician. So no blowing the main fuse. It is about time the UK caught up with the world, instead of being stuck in the 1950s.
How often does the main fuse blow? It is not a trick question. So you want to force millions of home owners to spend hundreds of pounds to upgrade to a protective device which isn't likely to be used once in 20 years?
@@deang5622 The French main RCBO, the _disjoncteur différentiel,_ is *_double pole._* Line and Neutral are isolated when switched off or it trips. When a main fuse blows in the UK system only the line is isolated (not good). It is single function giving only over-current protection. The _disjoncteur différentiel,_ is an *RCBO,* giving: *1)* over-current protection; *2)* fault protection; *3)* earth leakage protectio;. *4)* a double pole main switch; *5)* a safety net in case protection in the consumer unit fails. It eliminates an antiquated method of protecting a system. If the RCBOs or RCDs fail in the consumer unit the _disjoncteur différentiel_ protects being a safety net. We should start a programme of conversion to these asap dragging DNOs out of the 1950s. Or maybe you liked the 1950s - rock n roll and all that.
@@johnburns4017 IET regs don't require double pole isolators. Whilst I agree their use is preferable to single pole, I understand their reasoning. It relies on a solid earth connection, which is nearly always present. I don't think double pole/single pole isolation is a key deciding factor here. My argument is based on the value for money in forcing home owners to upgrade their installation to the French disconjuncteur. The protections you describe that are provided by the French device are already provided by other devices in a British residential electrical installation. Again, it comes back to the same question. You are forcing people to spend hundreds of pounds to add a protective device whose functionality is already provided in the installation. You have to convince the customer that there is a real benefit to _them_ by installing the French disconjuncteur device. The only extra benefit to the consumer, a new additional benefit, is it provides a resettable over current protection, a feature that is not likely to be used once in 20 years. In terms of protection, I don't feel that a single RCBO is a good way to protect an installation where that RCBO is positioned at the main isolation switch. There needs to be multiple RCBO's protecting different circuits. Why lose power to the entire property when a better design will only remove power to the final circuit that has been impacted by the fault? For new build properties, adopting a completely new approach could be beneficial. But trying to persuade private home owners to spend a not inconsiderate amount of money for no benefit to _them_ they aren't going to do it.
@@deang5622 In between listening to Bill Haley songs, read again and *understand* what I wrote.
@@johnburns4017 No, you have not read what I wrote. What did I say to you about positioning of th RCD? Why are you having so much difficulty with what I wrote? Additionally, you have not presented a counter argument to the cost benefit of the French device. Get your head out of your arse and read things dude. I put forward a very strong argument as to why you shouldn't have the RCD at the main breaker. But you have completely glossed over that; was that because you don't understand it or because you didn't read it?
How many 16mm meter tails will end up on 100amp fuses
How many final properties on looped supplies wlll end up with 100A fuses...
Boom bang a bang will be all over the Uk very soon
And that'll just be from people reaching for their fire extinguishers, let alone all the electrical conflagration... #TheITCrowd 🧯🇬🇧🔥😉
Gonna be a good deal more fires!
Remote auto closure gives me the fear
I see a new episode of unintended consequences coming up
Definitely wiping nightmare to have only electronically controlled device... must be simple as magnets, induction etc and only some the electronics somewhere there....
nursing, bunion
Quiche and sparkles
Or as we call it, Monday night! 😂
Whenever I work on a circuit in my house I take the fuse out and put it in my pocket.
IoT circuit breakers controlled by an app... Im not in favour of putting propriotory wireless controlled computers into everything. Eventually it'll end up as 'circuit breaking as a service' and the householder will pay a recurring subscription just to use the thing they've paid for... Like the subscription to keep using the heated seats in recent Audis (think it was audis Iirc)
we will end up with electricity like back at Crete; - to do Welding during peak hours we will need to buy a PHAT 48 Volt transformer and put it in series with the (by then 90 Volt) mains.... - computers will need AVR, UPS - basically like NASA...
It has to be nursing bunion!
Vaping and Bunion!
Allowed? what does that mean? WHERE DOES THE LIABILITY STOP? I WOULD WANT IT IN WRITING.
Words are Heavyweight and Bunion.
Octopus are already undercutting independent installers, barely any money left in the job after materials are taken into consideration.
Ugh, late stage capitalism eh? 🙁
It has potential. But can we test the overload aspect ? Does it use the old archaic mounting systems ?
Looped power supply??? Jeez, you guys routinely do some crazy stuff in the UK! I knew you guys did things like sharing transformers and running equipment grounds through gas lines but daisy chaining mains supplies between houses?? What were they thinking besided do it as absolutely as dirt cheap as possible!!
this would have been common pre the 1940's where most houses only had electric lights and a few sockets as back then the power consumption was a lot less, it happened a lot both in towns and in rural areas, and a lot of that network still requires upgrading
@@grendel1960a Maybe, but as I researched this it was still very common in the 70s and 80s! It doesn't exist in the US! None of he things I mentioned do!! It seems like it really can't be saving more than a few meters of cable with the looped feeds. IDK, just seems crazy to me!
@@professorg8383 plenty of US practices seem crazy over here as well. Sockets in bathrooms…
@@professorg8383 in a lot of instances the properties were fed from an overhead pole, in this instance it was cheaper to just feed one overhead span and then loop the rest (cheaper and looked better than a half dozen overhead spans), but even up to the 70's they were still only installing a single (maybe a double) socket in each room, back then that was plenty to supply the possible appliances, nowadays you need more like 6+ sockets per room.
@@JohnR31415 5ma GFCI receptacles. One GFCI protects any downstream parallel receptacles too. Much better than RCD breakers, 5ma at 120 volt leakage is very low energy. You could use a hair dryer in the bathtub and be protected!!! But seriously, it is a very good system!
“Jedburg” court ? 😂. The correct pronunciation is more like “Jed Borough”. You should try it in the Borders accent next time. It makes it easier.
My apologies, throw it on the pile of place names that I've pronounced wrong!
Hang about...... All circuit protection requires a 4mm physical gap ...... So how come Siemens are allowed to develop this.....Yet Easee might go bankrupt over this because of the Sweden issue
I'm really concerned to hear that many Sparks *aren't locking-off* circuits when working on them. All it takes is for someone to not be paying attention when trying to make the lights work again, and bang - That's a three-phase isolator that was *supposed* to be _open_ being _closed_ right at the moment you've got your hands deep inside a tangle of exposed conductors whilst you're trying to wire-up an EV fast-charge point! ⚡🚑⚰ Personally; If I was in the trade (And would be, if it wasn't for this darned neurodiversity 🌻) locking-off and testing would be automatic habit. I'm fussy enough about practicing full isolation simply when replacing a light switch or socket, for goodness sake! ⚡🛡👍 That said; For some reason - Though I'm _really_ finicky about full isolation in domestic settings, I feel perfectly comfortable with the idea of making/breaking connections in energised 25kV systems... (Using the isolators provided) 🚄⚡😇 As for the Siemens connected ACBO; I might be OK using something like that as a connected control device, but there is absolutely *no* way I would ever trust any connected device¹ to act as the sole means of circuit protection. You want a „smart“ ACBO on this circuit? Fine...But you're getting a passive RCBO connected between it and the load, whether you want it or not! 🛡 (¹ - Especially not one that sounds like it's using an ESP32 or some other mass-market MCU module, where any master key leak would result in a *lot* of devices suddenly becoming accessible to everybody in the world and their cat *when* it eventually happens! ⚠)
can't wait for circuit breaker malware to become a thing... seriously why does it have to be a phone app (presumably over bluetooth or worse, the internet), just put a usb port or some sort of dongle if you wanna have smart functionality
Bunion and slelt are the two words.
Go Octopus, first they got rid of MCS, now this, what next?
7:05 and it probably cost £2m per item
bunion, vaping
If that siemens device costs 5€, then fine, if 245€, haha.
Joe's beard is being upgraded
We saw a family of squirrels 🐿️ move in a few days ago.
@@efixx watch out they will eat the sheathing of your cables
This is Joe here, I've only just caught up with this, very amusing!
It looks like Sentron will be redefining "armchair commissining"!
Bunion & Vaping
Bunion and Swiss army knife
Suicide although 100a fuses are physically larger than the smaller ones.
thrush, bunion
This weeks words.... Heavyweights and bunion? 🤷🏼♂️
Svelte and bunion
Great guesses, listen to next week's show to see if you won! 😎
Bunion & vaping
Nice guesses Ewen, stay tuned to next Monday's show to see if you got it! 😃
Bunion and Vaping
Vaping induced
Bunion n nightmare
Bunion and Vaping.
Good guesses, find out next Monday if you won! 😁
thrush nursing
Bunion and nightmare
I went to quote for an ev charger, but found the house to have no bonding although it was required, I got an electric shock when I took the cover off a newly fitted consumer unit as thd installer thought only 1 half of a ring main needed to be connected, the the other end apparently needs to be stripped ready to connect but just left on top of a pile of rcbo neutral conductors. I told the customer this would need sorting, and gave them a quote. When checking in a week later I was told that Octopus came round and installed a charger for them, and when I asked if they sorted the other issues, I was told, no they said it would be fine. And now someone has given these cowboys the okay to upgrade main cut fuses. What the bloody hell is going on in this country, this is typical of some fat twat getting a stuffed brown envelope again and screwing the people trying to do the job properly. No wonder so many electricians are leaving the country to work elsewhere.
Bunion and vaping
Vaping and punning
Bunion and vaping.
bunion and vaping
This is a popular combo, tune in next week to see if you're right! 😊
Bunion and vapeing.
Wind job words of the day
Vaping & Nightmare
Vaping heavyweights
Would be nice if NICEIC/NAPIT were allowed to have a set of balls by the government and be allowed to prosecute people for unlicensed electrical work the way RECI in Ireland can
If NIECEIC/NAPIT got involved in prosecutions it would end up another Post Office scandal
Hi I don't know if you will read this or any1 in the comments please help I want to connect a 220v led rgb strip outdoors I wanted to know most or all of the controller power supplies come WITH very short cables I want to keep the controllers indoors. the help I need is can I cut the 4 pin side and add 5 meter 4core cable and join back the 4 pin Head that plugs in the strip with out cutting the ac side of the controller PLEASE HELP
Bunion & vaping
Bunion and Vaping
Bunion and Vaping.
Lots of people guessing this, either it was too easy or a brilliant red herring! 😂
Bunion and vaping
Bunion and Vaping.