USA and UK Electrician tackle CRAZY electrical wiring in Vietnam
Honestly the most difficult and confusing fault find I have ever tackled - in Vietnam. Let us know your thoughts in the comments. Thanks to Ian for letting me come and join him on this really interesting job! You can find him on KZhead here: / inothome
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Canadian electrician here, for tricky fault finding we’ll often plug a very long extension cord into a known good outlet - and use its ground/earth and neutral as reference.
In this case it would have to be the neutral.
😂 sorry but that's such a caveman way of doing things. From what I've seen you do things better than America, but the fact neither of you test installs and literally just "troubleshoot" if there is a fault is crazy to me. Literally just juice it up and wait for a fault.
@@Walktheline1991 jah,thatès how we do it lol I donèt agree with it but thatès how itès done
In my industry (Chemical/pharmaceutical manufacture) the first fault finding question was always.... "what has changed"
That assumes that it worked when it was installed.
Very good question! In this instance it may or may not lead to the cause of the fault because the fault could also be rodent or water damage, or component failure. Still a very good starting point.
Lol thats what I've always said Especially if getting an electric shock , what was the last thing I touched and pull away from that It's better than 'jumping' and falling off a fifteen foot ladder bringing down the whole tee bar ceiling with you ( Not a good out come) If getting a shock what part of the light are you touching, is it the tee bar that's live? Is it the air conditioning duct behind you in the ceiling space that you leaned on ( faulty fan motor?) Just slowly pull away from the last thing you touched and you should be right ( And most of the time no one even notices you got a shock !) Lol They do wonder though how you knew there was a fault with the air con fan / whatever else was the fault ' it's just experience, I can tell without even looking at it ' Can't own up to getting a shock it's too much paper work ! And don't want to break an arm or leg landing on a desk and concrete floor jumping off the ladder Rule no one of sparkies don't own up to getting a shock Rule no 2 is don't be afraid of getting a shock If you get a shock you get a shock Just stay aware and stop touching the last thing you touched I don't know why people jump so hard when they get a shock It is you jumping up and spearing your head on a spike that's sticking thru the desk above you as you jump up , or falling of your ladder that causes more harm/ death than the shock itself most times Was with an apprentice once he was up a ladder and got a shock while removing a self contained emergency light ( Power was off but he must have touched part of the inverter circuit LOL) up a ladder in a corridor He went mental was looking around shouted / screamed as he punched the wall next to him ! I was like WTF???? If you get a shock just let go of it and reassess , make sure you are not still getting a shock , then carry on not touching that part again or testing with a Meter if not sure where the 'live' bit came from I told him he had better get his shock reaction under control or one day he will end up getting fried big time when working on our larger highrise main switch boards Funniest thing was the wall he punched ( full force) was a really old hard thick solid fibre cement wall He cracked it and put a decent dent in the wall But he also broke his hand / knuckles had to go to hospital and get x-rays etc He would have fallen off the ladder too if I hadn't been stopping it from falling over as he was dancing around punching walls I did ask him if he felt like an idiot 🤣 I told him yeah ok you got a shock , How the f★ck is smashing your hand and trying to fall off the ladder going to make it better? You already got the shock It already happened ,why add to any 'damage' done Even the next day I asked him how his hand was bruised swollen in a cast I had to make him aware he wasn't in any pain or anything from the shock he received. And would have been fine right now if he hadn't hit the wall for no reason. 🤣 I live in Australia but I'm from the UK Maybe it's the English in me Get an electric shock Reassess the situation Hope no one noticed and Just keep on working 👍🙂
Change control is very important in commercial environment.
That was the first question I asked (and always ask) the homeowner, what did you add or change? Nothing was changed, second question here is always, did it happen when it started raining? Their answer to this one was it hadn't rained for a few days before or after the fault started. So could be some rodent damage or some water leakage that took some time to develop. Haven't been back yet, so it's still a mystery and homeowner, unfortunately, is not too concerned. Even though I expressed how this can go really bad.
Some years ago I visited Vietnam and talked with the owner of an restaurant (a old guy from UK) about my education. After i sayed that i did a school for electrical engineering, he insisted that i switch to the next seat because from there I didn't saw the open switchbox with the lose wires 😂
What?
Comment from Germany: Perhaps I did not get everything languagewise, but my take on this problem would be first to use my signal-injector, that I normally use to find the breaker for a specific outlet, just reversed. So inject the signal at the switchboard and then go around the house with the signal-probe to find the outlet, where the injected signal can be detected. That narrows down the number of suspects. BTW, I've seen similar if not worse installations in Brazil, Mexico, Eastern Europe, Albania, South Africa - so no Asian peculiarity. In Albania for example they intentionally shuffle the cable colours even in secondary transformer stations, because the bad guys had quickly learned, that green-yellow never is live so you can steal that wire without getting electrocuted. Now you never know - chances are three out of five that green yellow is live 🤦♂ Cheers Andreas
What model signal injector do you use?
When discussing wiring with people from the US (we do it wrong so everyone else can do it better), it is simpler to use amps rather than translating physical wire sizes.
Trouble is, anywhere outside North America (at least in industrialised countries) there's no direct correspondence between physical wire size and current-carrying capacity because the latter depends on whether the wires are surrounded by air (overhead lines), buried in the ground, buried in plastered brick walls or surrounded by thermal insulation, and whether multiple cables are bundled together (heat derating). Ambient temperatures and length (voltage drop) also play a role. One example from my recent jobs: normally 16 mm2 is good for 63 amps. However, my run is slightly over 100 m, so in order to keep voltage drop under control I had to derate to 25 amps.
@@Ragnar8504 All the derates you mentioned are a thing in the USA too.
Australian sparky here: We almost exclusively use stranded conductors so twisting is basically commonplace. We mostly use neutral and earth bars though but every now and again I'll come across an entire installations worth of earths twisted and soldered. In Queensland we are also required to twist and solder a 6mm neutral tail for the meter neutral no matter the size of the main neutral. When we're terminating into switches, sockets or connectors - we twist all our conductors.
My "live" bus bar in the switchboard is just all lives twisted together in a screw connector block. That was done by a qualified electrician.
Aussie Sparkie Lol meter on the pole in the street So they can't tamper with it , or' innocently accidentally' tap into the mains before the meter The supply authority finally found a great solution to stop that kind of caper! Assuming they were an official connection and not just hard wired to to pole lines with out a Meter LoL if they are gonna steal power there they just have to go all in straight from the street 🤣 I would have thought using an Independent earth - a trailing lead from a screw driver stuck into a free bit if dirt outside Would be a must on any 'confusing fault with weird unexplained live wires ' just to have a conductor with a KNOWN potential to build your fault finding logic on ( The live conductor of the mains feed in could have compromised insulation making the whole house live via concrete REO etc meaning the concrete floor they are using and assuming that its close to earth potential when it could actually be floating live and incorrectly basing all their fault finding readings off that ) It could even be The neighbour on the other side of the wall may have a fault that's livening up the building (I have seen this done ) It's a Rookie mistake to over look and not use a true Independent earth In any installation that is new to you , Don't trust anything or cable colours until you have proved it yourself using your own Independent earth It's the best way to stay alive ( and cover your arse - so little timmy doesn't get a tingle every time he is playing in the water around the outside tap till one day he gets a good one ( shock) and drops dead meaning you spend the rest of you life in a concrete cell as you left an installation connected reverse polarity ( Although apparently Thailand probably wouldn't report it as an electrical death! so all good 👍) In Australia using a Trailing lead from an Independent earth stake / long screw driver driven into the middle of the front yard To prove the polarity of the incoming mains And ensure the installation is not reverse polarity .. At least all of the circuit breakers in the video appear to be double pole It's more important for the final job to be 'electrically sound' than it is to look 'perfect' Or The next sparky comes along Fault-finding tracing wires out has to cut tons of cable ties off to trace where each wire goes Its better for a switchboard to look like cr★p using whatever (electrically correct) gear you can source / have ( different brands/ age etc) It's better to be safe and perform with out any problems for years to come rather than look pretty and not work right / fail . Just because is had to ' look nice' Performance and reliability is More important than looks Even if it's just down to leaving enough slack in the wires for future maintenance, with minimal interruption to client . Ease of tracing wires in a full board Its A bit hard in a full switch board when you pull on the wire you are tracing and they all move as they are all solidly cable tied together So you Have to turn the whole board off and take it apart to reach and cut the cable ties off safely Just to trace the wires ! Argghh ! Why are they using the MEN system if they aren't running earths through the house The whole and only reason for joining N to general mass of earth is to provide a KNOWN given potential to be used in fault finding And avoid 'impossible' to find faults crossing from one installation to another via water pipes concrete REO etc As in a fault like this In A two wire system with no reference or link to general mass of earth If one installation has active shorted to a water pipe ( could be a toaster with an active part touching its frame placed on a metal draining board of a sink) or even just a hot water boiler With just that There's no issue or tripping Untill another installation way down the road develops a neutral fault ( short) to a water pipe Let's say a toaster Neutral fault to its case and it's on a metal kitchen sink draining board that has taps on it Resulting in ' nuisance' tripping at both installations Due to current flowing between the two houses via the water pipe / general mass of earth ( especially if it's been raining - another 'random factor') And neither can figure out why their C/b keeps tripping 'at random' when all the factors that they can't see and are in aware of align. If the toaster is moved to a bench top next to the sink Some one could get electrocuted just by touching the sink and the toaster, but only if the random fault is present in the first installation ( their fault could also be in their toaster etc) That IS the only reason NEUTRAL is tied to general mass of earth, the MEN system To 'contain' any faults to within an installation itself. Regardless of what happens with YOUR electrics you won't be endangering your unwitting neighbours lives Only your own life. yes The MEN system CREATES a danger of getting a shock if you stand bare foot in a puddle of water and decide to touch something that is live. But it is a KNOWN danger That is always present it is not reliant on ifs buts and maybes that may or may not be present / happening somewhere else ! It just IS , it's a constant , a given , a known factor. That is why an earth is required at every GPO and lighting point Running an extra conductor to every electrical point does incur an extra cost during installation which is a down side But it is required as a safety measure to mitigate the Danger and the Risk of shock between live parts and earth Introduced by using the MEN system . When a shock is received to earth from an MEN system the fault can be identified and rectified as it is has to be local within that installation Without the MEN system the fault could be One of many things and 'no longer visible' as a fault in some other random installation has been removed (Such as the faulty hot water system down the road just reached temperature and it's thermostat just turned off) The MEN system forces the people with dodgey gear to fix it ( Makes the people with dodgey electrics aware of it by tripping THEIR own C/Bs not the neighbours ) Lol I guess rather than guessing if it's safe or if there's a danger of an electric shock To earth , it's been made into a DEFINITE Known danger condition ( that is great for fault finding and fault containment) Oh and BTW when you are in a hi rise apartment A flower pot plant is NOT considered a good place to put Independent earth 🤣
@@GlenPoll-ox2hjno-one's reading all that fella.
@@mikeypc3592 Bit of an epic isn't it. Can't argue about the independent earth though. Reveals all if the transformer star (wye, centre) point is earthed even via high impedance. Go back to basics, establish the service polarity and work from there.
@GlenPoll-ox2hj the only thing I have time to reply to is about independent earth. Yes, it's absolutely a needed thing. I have a multifunction tester that uses 2 independent earths that I run as far from the install as possible.
In Asia, they normally embed cables (normal cable) in the concrete, and where there is land movement, cable will be pinched. I think you should check on power cable in from the meter outside
I wouldn't have thought there would be a "short-cut" to fault finding - in the west we have standardised installation methods which specify colour coding etc because overall it is more efficient since everyone should know what the standards are. When you don't have a standardised install each person working on an installation needs to work out what the install actually is before they can work on it - this takes time which adds to the cost and reduces efficiency. On top of this you have electrical safety to consider - we don't get nearly as many electric shocks as we used to due to better product safety design - I remember appliances my parents had and used reguarly where getting a shock off them was relatively common occurance and you soon learnt to be careful!
Very cool I now know we are blessed with standards in New Zealand. Thanks to both of you stay safe
Our pleasure!
Not for long
the wiring I saw and used in Vietnam was like a fever dream.
How can they not have more fires with wiring like that? This is insane!!
Third world country as finest, they believe the power of God to prevent those 😂
They do have fires and deaths caused by electrics they just don't officially attribute them to electrical faults ( as would probably create too much (pointless) paper work to prove/ not prove the cause was electrical )
@@GlenPoll-ox2hj Nope. The buildings are concrete and not flammable. No fires. Plus many tropical buildings may have permanent ventilations that cannot be closed, so that any little smoke from a switchboard going up in flames will harm no one.
Do they have neutrals tied together from different branch circuits? That would explain the small changes of leak current. I would also use tone generator to trace out circuits.
Fascinating.... Great job!
Glad you enjoyed it!
That is true Tony and the business I was in this was always the case but I understand that everything is not always like this.
Do I like to twist wires together? Yes -- For 5V at 150mA.
thats actually great work for me to do coz i love to do everything 100% right and save i wouldn't mind to go there and show them how its done
Watching from the US. I have completely switched to Wago. I am in the process of re-wiring my house completely, two new sub panels will feed everything and I only use Solid strand #12 to all circuits, even for 15amp circuits.
That lad has a big heart!
3:30 Having just built a house in Khon Kaen, Thailand, and knowing a lot about US electrical standards, the lack of adherence to color codes drove me crazy, I was able to successfully enforce only green for ground wires though.
I live in Argentina (220-230V @ 50Hz and three phase 380V ). A lot of houses don't have a ground wire so I dont get a reference for neutral or line. I use the amp clamp in volts and check against body, if it gives me around 110V then I know it's the live wire, or the box itself if its a metallic one. For wires in junction boxes I use one of those non contact detectors (even tho my amp clamp has that function, it's too big sometimes) but it's not that reliable when having a bunch of wires all smushed togheter
Hi there, I'm from South Africa, and we do Electrical and solar on a daily basis. The way they do it here especially in new housing estate's that's is very expressive properties is chocking.them you go out into rural areas and it's even worse. There no building or any construction regulations apply. I had to do a COC after installed a Battery backup system. But could not get proper earth reading. The saw cable coming from distribution pole. It's a black cable with a 10 mm red wire and surrounded by a earth armouring. No neutral so the n at house the connect 2 x2.5 mm surfix cables to this. So no way I can get proper earth point to complete test. I suggested to customer we fit grounding rod and Earth their DB, they said no worry we don't need COC out here.
I would strip out and start again . In the uk that installation would fall and I wouldn’t bother trying to find the fault
Get a spool of wire and connect it to a known good ground. For tracing wires that are not in conduit you can use a "toner", a two piece set, one generates a warble audio frequency and it is detected by an inductivly coupled sensor. They are intended for telephone wiring troubleshooting but can be used on deenergized wires as well.
Hello i am from Western Australia i am an apprentice electrician and really love watching these unformative videos.
I meant informative
11:30 This is a big difference. Here in Finland I could safely touch any wires I see anywhere (clearly broken is a different thing and I have reported a light pole with a hanging cover once) and I won't worry when my dog walks over wagos connected to wires on the ground because I can be 100% sure those would never be live. And I regularly use my fingers to find a socket in the dark and to guide the plug in without a worry. Even my bathtub is connected to an outlet.
Everybody who have not tried programming, this captures exactly how it feels to read code written by somebody else.
hahahaha lol😂
And what you're calling a death stick is a very commonly used tester in most of continental Europe as far as i know. I've never had , or heard of a problem with one.
Unless some smart a★rse decides to be 'funny' and replace the resistor or bypass it with a thin strand of wire. Or swapping it for a 12v auto test screwdriver It has been done in the past. You can only hope that the fear of prosecution would stop them in todays work environment as that kind of behaviour wouldn't be tolerated and there's an expectation for any 'prankster' putting lives at risk to be severely reprimanded. Still if they are stupid enough to do it There's no guarantee other than banning the neon test screwdrivers altogether
In my part of India, every household has a death stick on hand, not just the electricians. Never heard of any incidents with one ever.
There is no way companies like Wera would include test screwdrivers in thier screwdriver sets if they were dangerous.
I have known them to go wrong, but nobody gets killed. You alway check it's working before relying on its readings, unless you're an idiot. There is no tool that's not dangerous in the hands of an idiot.
Time to plug everything else back in, make that wire safe, and see what isn't working?
Awesome video.....😊
Honestly the most difficult and confusing fault find I have ever tackled - in Vietnam. Let us know your thoughts in the comments.
Im off to do some EICR's in Tokyo, Hong Kong, Manilla, Indonesia and Maldives next month. Bet its fking to be interesting
What is lighting cable. 1.5mm2 can easily be used for up to 16A
Formally trained Croatian electricians seem to love twisting and taping multiple wires together. Well at least it seems common in older apartments.
I have a fault on a new garage built in my garden. My basic plug tester says live neutral swapped but everything is connected correctly. If I plug somthing into a socket the consumer unit trips the moment I turn on a grinder plugged in. Are there any forums you guys advise to chat and figure out the fault thanks.
Even as a DIYer, I know from experience those neon screwdrivers are death traps. They can have false negatives, and more commonly - false positives (which then leads you to assume it's wrong all the time and work on the circuit despite the neon glowing a bit).
They never run grounds to residential lighting fixtures in Thailand, even of the fixture has a ground wire or ground screw.
I seen metal sink, it should have metal faucet and pipes that go into ground, even plastic pipes full of water are good enough for AC groud path, test with meter to faulty wire and sink. Maybe there is wired in warer heater or furnace, or some large applience i seen, that is not on sockets. Or the wire is dammaged in the wall touching some other screw or metal, appearing like grounded. Wish ya success on the adventure.
Can't really Use metal sink or hot water system as an Independent earth reference untill you prove it ,as there could be a water pipe bond to what they thought was earth / neutral ( or polarity swapped after it was done) or hot water sys etc could be down to earth / frame making all the taps/ sinks live You Need an Independent earth from the yard (so that you know without any doubt that it is earth potential,) with a trailing lead to test polarity , if for nothing else to test taps and sinks etc and make sure they are not live ate all Water pipes can be live and if they are unfortunate and a water pipe joins bursts you can get arcing ( that you can see at night at least) across in the escaping water from one pipe to the other I have seen it when all of these unlikely events occured at the same time.( Neutral burnt off at point of entry so the massive load of industrial cooking equipment being used was returning to earth/ neutral in the street via the water pipes) I don't know if the pipe join had issues before and was going to break anyway or if the electric current found it as a high resistance created a hot spot and melted solder or something? Either way seeing I guy standing in a puddle of water being sprayed with water attempting to stop the leak while you could see flashes of light in the water around the pipes Was the worst thing I have ever seen , he was so lucky he didn't die. ( It was at a restaurant and lounge was p★ssed as a f★rt) I was shouting at him to get away from it I wasn't going to go near him ( I was p1$$ed not stupid) And Turn the bl★★dy power off And then turn water off/ tackle the burst pipe. They had to shut the restaurant down for the night till it was fixed so the owner was upset so asked them would they rather lose one nights business or have someone get electrocuted and a coroners investigation Requiring the evidence to stay as is until fully recorded etc meaning the restaurant remaining closed for the duration . Faced with that the owner did the right thing ( Plus I told them I had to demand access to their switch board to turn the mains off ) otherwise I could be held liable for any injury/ death Even tho it was nothing to do with me (and I was p★$$ed as ) as I saw a dangerous situation that I knew could easily be deadly and the clowns were literally playing with their lives. Fun times 😃
It is strange how in Asia they do not use earthing so much. Even on Japan it is often not used or you may have to earth the device with a septate wire that you screw in.
Depends on where in Asia. For the ex-colonial countries ruled by the British and some of their neighbors, the plugs used are the same as the UK and the standards are very similar, including the use of earth wiring, etc.
Yes, some Asian countries have a surprising selection of double-insulated appliances, so earthing is less of a necessity. Have you ever seen a double-insulated full-sized fridge? I could hardly believe my eyes when I saw a Samsung one for sale at the local Thai embassy about 20 years ago!
@@amgspd85 Here in southern India, we universally have earthing. We do have a two-pin socket standard as well.
It's only when you go to other countries do you realise ,how advanced The British electrical system is, especially each plug have its own fuse,
Each plug having it's own fuse is due to us having 30A ring ccts. In Spain all the socket groups are spares on a 15A breaker so don't need plug fuses. They have a duel plug system of big round sockets for heavy appliances max 15A and the 7A low power things can also plug into them. The 7 A sockets tend to be 2 pin with only the larger sockets having an earth. If your appliance has to be earthed use the larger plug. Also RCDs on every spare is now common.
The plug fuses would be entirely unnecessary if the British didn't have 32 A socket circuits. If socket circuits were limited to 16 or 20 amps, as they are elsewhere, fused plugs would offer very little benefit. Doing away with them would mean no more fire risks with illegally imported unfused plugs or adaptors, no more easter egg hunts for blown fuses and no more fire risk with broken ring circuits and no risk of DIYers "repairing" fuses with tin foil.
@@Ragnar8504 you answer your own question, illegal plugs , British have a kite mark plug , And a fuse because they have 34 amp circuits , I would prefer to hear a 13 amp fuse pop in the plug then, get 2000 watts up my arm and down my leg,
@@davidchamberlain2162 true but fuse in plug , and fuse in box RCD , gives a line of protection,
Yes, very advanced. So advanced that it's still not mandatory to have a dedicated electrode on your PME supplies. Even more alarmingly no electrode of any type at all, not incidental via plumbing bonds, nothing at all, if the situation meets. Tell that to anyone from another country that implements TN-C-S earthing and watch their jaw drop in disbelief... Now this is not to say UK electrical is terribly deficient but calling it advanced is a bit of a fairytale too.
I guess the one thing in your favour is the 20 sec delay before the breaker trips. This allows you to get a decent reading off the clamp meter before the current trips off. My step one would be to use the clamp meter to confirm there is excessive current passing through the wire to the breaker - and it's not just a faulty breaker. Step two would be to compare the current in the feed wire to the board, with current in the neutral to the board (from DB1). if these are similar Amps, then a massive leak to earth, through the fabric of the building, is eliminated from the list of causes. However if there is a massive difference, then an earth fault is indicated as the cause of excess current. Should you suspect this discrepancy is due to a neutral current bypassing DB2, then go back to DB1 and verify. If this all confirms the tripping is due to an overload or a short, then it's the old story of identifying the guilty conductors and tracking along them to the fault. which looks like a nightmare 🙂
Did all that and that's how I located the bad neutral. Originally they had it on the hot and assumed it was the neutral since it had all the neutrals on it. Then figured bad breaker internally. But didn't trip when all wires disconnected from breaker and isolated it to that one neutral, that was originally on the hot. When connected and that branch circuit off, there is anywhere from 500mA to 1000mA flowing on it, coming from the other circuits. Verified by measuring the return neutral on the breaker, then connecting that bad neutral and watching current drop on the breaker neutral to main panel. But where that neutral connects to the rest of the circuit, I can't find. Its in the wall or in the ceiling and homeowner does not want to start cutting holes in ceiling. Even though I explained how bad this is.
If there is a difference between hot and neutral. I would start to look at places that have earth close to it. Like pipes, water, metal doorframes, outdoor lamps/switches. If hot and neutral carries the same current. Start to break up the circuit in the electrical boxes to find out when the breaker stops tripping. When finding shorts on PCBs, I add external current limited power into the short and check with an IR-camera. The fault path and return path will light up and show you the way to the fault 😃
i'm not qualified but have some electical and diagnostic knowledge and i would resort to using what used to be called "belling out " equipment to send a signal in a cable and trace it. This is such a mess hahahahah. We used to use this device to trace twisted pair phone and networking cable throughout office blocks and i'm sure it would work here.
nwonder what u do for ground in sand and bedrock situations?
Just seen your comment, my garage light has done that since we moved in and the t tubes always glow...worrying..... Not my wiring but I will be annoying you re wiring it myself top to bottom. Had to re wire it to move it as I'm doing a full renovation and its a birds nest, believe me it cant get any worse.
Oh the life of the traveling electrician! It's fine until a friend says, "oh, Daves an electrician". Gee, thanks! Sheer bravery in action! Good luck guys.
So true!
@@artisanelectrics Do you have Vietnamese electrical license to do electrical work over there?
Do they eveb have one @@AAaa-wu3el
@@AAaa-wu3eldo they even have licences?
On the plus side No matter what work you do ( or possibly how bad the work you do is ) When you leave it won't be any worse than when you started 🙂 The mentality is if it's doing what they want it to do Then it must be ok A little bit like the home wifi routers when they first came out They plug it, find and connect to their wifi router and just use it With no protection So anyone could connect to it and use it . Ahh , the clients famous last words - 'but It's working so it must be all right ' Lol Same mentality Everything is good , - until it isnt Altho wifi isn't likely to burn your house down or kill you lol
My money is with the issue being a reversed Line and Neutral inside one of the appliances. I recall a Washing Machine that was produced with the Line having resistance to earth and the Neutral inside the Washing Machine being connected to Line.
The question is, to what does this neutral go? Something must not be working when you disconnect it. So just run around put a socket tester in every outlet. Since the sockets are connected to the light switches, that should also cover most of the lighting.
It's the return for everything on that one breaker, three rooms and two floors. Everything works with that neutral disconnected, it's that good of a ground and what is scary about it.
Unfortunately it's a giant puzzle so it's going to mean starting somewhere and working until you can't work anymore. I would attempt to colorcode phase neutral but in the end I might end up just tagging lines with tape. You just have to go from one box to the next until you finish line and then rinse and repeat. I would probably replace that big bundle of twisted wires with some sort of junction block. eeeeeee
Start by getting an actual Independent earth reference on a trailing lead and start from there
Looks a real challenge, I'd love to go and spark there instead of the UK. Whilst it looks horrifying, I do wonder statistically how many people get killed from bad electrics!?
Overcurrent or short circuit. Does it trip straight away or does it take a while? Unplug every appliance and turn on to make sure it's not an appliance. If it works with everything unplugged then plug everything back in one thing at a time until it trips. If not appliance, then leave everything unplugged again and find out what that actually feeds. It might be quicker to run another cable through if thats a conduit I see there!!!
He mentioned 20 seconds, so it has to be the thermal trip but a fairly substantial current, so a low-impedance earth fault but no dead short. I think they already disconnected all portable loads and this circuit still tripped. It's a conduit but without knowing where the other end is you can't replace the wires. You could try blowing compressed air into the conduit and spotting the whistling noise at the other end but if the conduit is only in the wall and loose wires above the suspended ceiling that won't help a whole lot.
Irish Electrician here who has recently moved to Canada, No.6 would be 13.3mm Cable, also the practice of twisting wires & using wire nuts still annoy me I feel as I’m doing something wrong every time I do it over here!
Wire nuts work quite well if used properly but they're amazingly labour intensive, which might be why they never caught on in most parts of Europe (the Dutch, Portuguese, Italians and Swedish used loads of them before Wagos became a thing).
I can't stand wire twist nuts I've never had any good experience with them ( Went to a job , discovered some one previously used them but the Insulated cover part of the nuts had fallen off leaving the 'springs' on the twisted wires that were now live and exposed I will never use them Twist the wires and solder and tape them OR. twist the wires together and put them in a loose single Insulated connector and securely tighten the terminal screw to secure the wires and tape it I use Screwed terminal 'bp connectors'
Nothing worse than when your nuts fall off - your wire joins 😂
Wow,,what an eye opener! Ian's YT link?
In the description
Whilst you were having a six month break in and around Thailand, I’m sure John’s not bitter.
great video, huge respect to ian and all the other electricians over there having to work with that insanity
awesome 👍👍
It used to work and than it stopped, I would assume someone hang something on the wall or something..ask owner if there was any drilling recently.
Yeah that was the first question we asked - unfortunately it wasn’t that easy but it’s a great place to start
21:58 Brother, there is a reason why he is bald LOL
No wonder they get the polarity wrong if there is no standard colours 🤷♂️that alone is the most crazy thing in my eyes
They use whatever’s in the van, doesn’t matter what colour it is or what size it is.
Back in the 50s and even early 60s quite a few European countries didn't believe in wire colours either. I've seen installations with all wires (except earths) the same colour or different colours for each circuit but both wires of each circuit the same colour. Probably didn't conform even back then but people did it. A friend of mine used to live in a place like that. All circuits were 1.5 mm2, lighting #1 was two whites, lightning #2 was two purples, sockets #1 was two yellows and a red earth, sockets #2 was two dark blues and a red and sockets #3 was two browns and a red I think. Built in 1960. 10 amp MCBs that were completely useless, once we had a short in a floor lamp and it blew the 20 A bottle fuse outside the flat rather than tripping the MCB. Someone thankfully bodged in an RCD (TT supply) but that was the only upgrade in five decades. Eventually the place saw a full rewire.
It's the same here in India. The reason is that usually the customer buys the wires, and any excess is waste, so the electrician just uses whatever is remaining to finish the work. Sometimes they use colored insulating tape to indicate polarity.
its easy to forget that most of what we do in the US/UK for wiring is for safety. if you just ignore safety rules, then you can get pretty wild and creative and it will still work just fine. it will just not be as safe
I'm from Canada and I never encountered anything as bad as what I saw in this video. Mind you, I'm not a sparky. A few years ago, I bough a 40 years old condo . Clearly, sometime in the '90s or 2000's, most sockets and light switches were replaced. The original ones were cream colored and the new ones are white. I found at least 3 outlets with live and neutral inverted. The closet socket to the kitchen's stainless steel sink had no ground connection. I went along the sockets above the counter and found one where the ground was a little short and had therefore just been left unplugged. There is no RCD protection anywhere. All our sockets are duplexes. Since the ceiling is a concrete slab, there are no ceiling mounted lights. The wall switches are supposed control one of the 2 outlets. However, the person who had changed them didn't understand how things were meant to be. On our sockets, there are tabs on both sides that link the upper and lower sockets together for convenience. If you want to operate the sockets independently, those jumpers have to be removed. That hadn't been done which basically bypassed all the switches.
The problem is, when Some one is claiming to be an electrician and they've been doing electrical work for years in Thailand or somewhere then they move to uk,/Canada, /Australia You REALLY don't know what their standard of 'work' will be like , or if they are even aware that electrical standards exist ( or that earth wires exist for that matter) I have seen quite a few houses that have had a SIGNIFICANT amount of let's say 'asian country'' inspired work done, such as gpos ( socket outlets) only wired with 0 .75mm figure 8 flex ( bell wire) ( No earth) not to mention all the lights It is primarily because of such widespread dodgey dangerous and let's be honest INCOMPETENT unqualified electrical work being done by idiots.( Surely if someone's going to do work that 'isnt their normal day job' for God's sake do at least a minute bit of research! Or at least use the same size / type of cable that's already there That they are spurring off from I mean if you were going to move a tap / extend and put another sink in Even if you had never seen plumbing before Wouldn't you use the same size and kind of pipe?! You wouldn't just use a roll of clear 2mm PVC hose thats a lot smaller size pipe would you ?? You wouldn't use bl★★dy card board drinking straws or the like would you??! Even if you already had loads of them Making more standards and increasing penalties for illegal electrical work won't really stop these idiots as although some of them get caught and they are arrested and penalised for illegal work these idiots don't really know The laws or standards Even in the court room of commonsense There's absolutely no excuse for not replacing/ using like for like/ extend existing with the same type of gear. It's because of these idiots the govt makes it harder and creates more hurdles for qualified People that DO do the right thing ( as we are not stupid) In Australia it is illegal for anyone to do ANY electrical work unless they are qualified electricians (Trained to Australian standards -or equivalent standards ( not to 'Asian standards')) Not even homeowners are allowed to do their own electrical work Mainly Thanks to the idiot Muppets and their figure 8 flex Wired houses
5:22 - no, soldering may give the impression of a better joint, however given enough current the solder can melt which can cause all sorts of problems.
Why not use coloured pvc tape to mark the wires plurality as you work from the main feed in?
I still have my father's probably 50 year old death sticks. And they still work. :D
Canada also uses the same wire gauge as the US even though we are supposed to be metric.
32 amps is amazing!Except when there is a low voltage..We have standard 230 volt-16 amp.
The very first domestic electricity cabling was all just loosely twisted or folded together
Wheres the Wago's.. they need more Wago's.. lol
Yes, I've twisted wires together. And then I added a wirenut.
From the USA here.... What a mess there! 🤦♂🤷♂
My wera screwdriver set came with a “death screwdriver” they are ok if you have to prove a live core with no neutral or earth but you have to make sure your not touching anything to earth which is where things go wrong
Why? they work even better if you touch earth
No ink to Ian channel very interesting 😊 0:41
If there is a difference between hot and neutral currents. I would start to look at places that have earth close to it. Like pipes, water, metal doorframes, outdoor lamps/switches. If hot and neutral carries the same current. Start to break up the circuit in the electrical boxes to find out when the breaker stops tripping. When finding shorts on PCBs, I add external, current limited, power into the short and check with an IR-camera. The fault path and return path will light up and show you the way to the fault 😃
That's basically what I did with the amp clamp. Since I knew I had 500 to 1000mA on that neutral in the board, I went to every switch, receptacle, box etc... that is on that circuit to check for the same current, but was unable to see that 500 to 1000mA anywhere. So the fault is somewhere before it gets to any of the boxes. The attic is unaccessible and it's concrete and brick walls. So trying to find where that circuit splits to feed everything is the problem. Owner does not want to start cutting holes in the ceiling or knocking holes in the walls.
Hello from central Florida
Be interesting to see a Vietnamese electrician going to UK or USA to look at their electrics. (so the reverse of this, as such)
Same here in Brazil, no real color code followed just whatever they have and they twist wires like crazy. here I think its a cost issue if they can save a penny they will
Exactly,! Here in Paraná interior we have bi voltage mains supply,127/220v tomadas (wall outlet sockets) are, identical for each voltage. Where many things like phone Chargers/laptop chargers are multi voltage now, things like fridges, microwaves, air con units are not!
Do you think a Signal toner Would work to trace an unknown wire ?
Probably yes, unless the wires are too deep inside the concrete. The neutral-earth short might affect the tracer though, not 100% sure if they work with one of the wires earthed.
Good work ❤. Can a neutral-to-earth fault cause high electricity bills (no RCD in the consumer unit )? I hope you will answer my question.
No, but it could kill you if you don’t have neutral to earth.
@@tuju- thank you
No, that takes a Conservative government,
I was, and I will twist cables. No shitty wagos needed to burn down my house, or houses I'm wiring/fixing.. My entire country used twisting method for decades, and generally without fire caused by them. Before you judge, don't forget that the US uses the same way to make junctions. There is the current double according to Europe, because of the half voltage. I saw many twistings, and asked myself, how on earth they did not burnt the house. Fault finding: connect appliances one by one, with a timeframe longer than usual tripping time.
I wouldn’t want to work on that sort of crazy wiring practice, bad enough here even with proper standards
Twist up neutral link but if that's the approach taken it would be 100% soldered in Australia. Of course these days if you are doing this type of termination it's probably best to step back and think of how you've gotten to that position and how you can do things in a better way. Same goes for earthing.
If it's a join that doesn't need to be disconnected for any forseeable maintenance or servicing then Soldering is the best method for both conductivity , durability and corrosion and vibration resistance All well and good but how many times do the screws in cheap neutral bars etc chew up the conductors damaging and breaking off strands of wire ?? Lol when I first started off all the earth's in the switch board HAD to be soldered No such thing as an earth bar lol Lol it's a bit like conduit setting with the gas bottle instead of using shitty corrugated conduit that NEVER lasts long in the Aussie sun just gets brittle and cracks open , bending solid conduit is the only way to do the job right , takes longer but it's more robust looks better and will not be any where near as weak or brittle as corro. It seems the 'art' of setting conduit and the art of soldering correctly is becoming lost in the majority of new sparkys that just want a quick and easy way of doing things and don't care if it's not going to last till next year let alone 15 to 20 years ! Lol we used to be held accountable for work we did 3 years ago or more ( as it was recorded ) It ended up good though as my work in my buildings was good so I got to reap the rewards 😃 The only problems arose sometimes when they got contractors to refurb some areas They cut corners and even left ' surprises' bare live wires hanging down in voids a few times Plus their control / lighting stuff ups lol Like many trades some parts of electrical work rely on new gadgets and meters that the standard sparky doesnt know what it does or how it works Like every thing and any trade they should learn the basics the foundations, UNDERSTAND the principles of exactly what they are testing for and why before Playing with and relying on fancy gadgets. That way when resources are scarce in the middle of nowhere They will still have some ideas as to how to get the job done and working As well as keeping up with tech , The old skills of the job still need to be Passed on and taught . As one day they may not have the fancy gear and tech to do the job for them 🙂
@@GlenPoll-ox2hj Things change over time. Screw ends should be rounded these days, pretty sure AS says so. The old stuff did have sharp cut ends that would chew up wires and of course if you use elcheapo bars what else can one expect but to end up with non-compliant crap that does damage wires? I haven't done this stuff for nigh on 40 years now but if I can keep up to date with at least some of changes that have happened in that time someone that is actually working has no excuse.
@@retrozmachine1189 exactly 👍
An interesting video, but what was the resolution, abandon it and run?
Haven't been back yet, homeowner isn't concerned. Even though I stressed how bad this can end up.
That's some crazy stuff. Yeah wire gauge in America's weird! It confuses Americans too, usually the ones that aren't in the trade. It makes sense historically sort of.
It probably made sense to the people who manufactured wires back in the day but not to anyone else. Same as sheet metal gauge.
British wire gauge starts at number 7/0, 0.5" (500 thou) as the biggest size, going down to number 50 which is 1/1000". The sizes follow an approximate exponential curve, with an average 20% reduction in WEIGHT per unit length. Dimensions are in thousands and ten thousands of an inch.
@@billdoodson4232 interesting I didn’t know the UK had a wire gauge size, I just always assumed they use the metric sizing system even though I somehow knew that they had a different sizing system before.
Simplest way to clear that lot up is to power down the income, disconnect everything, and bell out every single cable with a wandering lead and label each line & neutral conductor to a known wiring standard, re fit accessories, test, and hand customer the bill... you can walk away knowing it's safe... customer is safe, installation is safe.. simple's
Capacitance on two way circuits can cause LED lamps to light dimly when off.
Or leakage thru the switch Green gunk / black oily conductive contaminants in the switch contacts 'grease'
I experienced that phenomena with two way wiring - under 4m in length
yes i had that had to fit a relay to isolate the lights when the light where off@@BrainW33a
Tools in Vietnam 🇻🇳 wow 😂
Now I know what was happening with some of the scary jobs I’ve been to in the past! They were obviously installed by a Vietnamese sparky!!! 🧨 ⚡️ 🔥
Do you cover Birmingham or know a good sparkie here?
Not every appliance has earth pin ;) Like some radios and chargers have only live and neutral ones
They desperately need choc blocks in shops.
Very dry ground makes it hard to make a good local earth grounding. Makes you afraid to go near any neutral let alone any metal parts of anything.
Very true
@@artisanelectrics 👍
Would scares the hell out of me.
what is the problem with twisting wires?
It's similar here in the Philippines - however it's 220v 2 phase - no neutral - and unless you put your own earth rod in - there is no earth. All the connections in the roof space are just twisted together - even the high amp lines for an oven or an air con. All the wiring in my house is green. No colour coding - nothing.
You can find the similar things in England, where this guy from.
Everything wired in black with twist & tape splices is the most common in the Philippines. Electricians do usually wire more systematically here than that example from Vietnam. When building our own house, I did all the wiring according to the Philippine Electrical Code using the prescribed colors and WAGOs for splices. I had to order the wires via Lazada as local hardwares often did not have all the colors I was using: 1st phase - black, 2nd phase - red, earth - green. Wagos were ordered from Amazon US. Colored electrical tape can be used to mark wires in the official colors on both ends, if the hardware stores do not have the right colors available. UL listed American wire nuts are available from Wilcon.
@@ChristianWagner888 it's a sign that nobody is paying attention to the standards when the local electrical store doesn't even stock the appropriately coloured wires and connectors. Blimey.
I hope you have good insurance.
Lol
Welcome to asia..... you should see it here in Philippines...... most of the time no ground and 2 black wire on way over size breaker
Russia seems to be the same, and at least some countries that used to be part of the Soviet Union, e.g. Ukraine. Three 16-amp MCBs on a 4 mm2 Al supply split off of a 16 mm2 Al riser mains on 100 amp fuses. Yikes! No earths anywhere to be seen, even in remodels that seem decent at the first glance. I remember watching a YT video of a flat refurb where all the sockets had earths but the earth wires were just bunched up in the consumer unit.
@@Ragnar8504 It's plenty rewireable fuses still in use in the UK, were you need to change wire if fuse is blown, plenty of lighting circuits with no earth whatsoever and so on. Actually electrical distributors in UK now are replacing existing copper supply cables with cheap aluminium ones. So it's not Soviet Union who ran your electrical system down.
Solution, rip it out and start over, the proper way. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Ian... what a gutsy guy... Im completely gobsmacked by the standards out there,... unreal 😮
Not gutsy it's just the way it is. These days People seem to grow up wrapped in cotton wool Protected by the nanny state For their own safety Unfortunately the younger generations end up growing up knowing nothing, And so far removed from the real world and how things actually work . What ever happened to everyone ripping things apart to repair things , knowing how to fix things and how far they could push things before they reached the limit and broke Living by the seat of your pants, Using what you have because you can't afford the latest and greatest , making what you have last for longer It's all good untill someone takes a shortcut or doesn't quite understand it and starts a fire Although it's not so much the house wiring thats the problem in concrete/ brick places where the cables are in conduit chased into walls as they can just melt and be contained The issue is usually all the wires shoved in the sockets rather than using plugs - just strip the insulation off the end and shove it in with the rest of the wires - the ultimate loose connection lol Causing hot spot / Intermittent sparks around fabrics that can burn etc Plus often over loaded / wrong sized individual single wires used instead of ' flex cable ' for appliances that get warm / melt insulation off as the C/B is for the whole house too large ( Really bad if you see all this where you are staying and it's really nothing more than a glorified cane hutch with straw roof) The mains coming in off the street Are basically someone climbed the pole and wrapped wires around the lines and strung it in to the house ( Most likely NOT legally connected ??? But then hardly anyone's connection looked legal. All rats nests on every pole and dodgey connections ( Not sure how some of the poles managed to carry the weight of all the copper) I tell you what it would be a great place for them to steal copper theres so much slack all knotted up there! Although I'm sure there would be MANY people coming out wanting to know why their dodgey power connections dropped out! They'ed be taking their life in their hands hacking into all those cable rat nests , if the local authority ever fixed their poles up they would have to just cut power to the whole street and remove ALL THE cables and just run all new lines down the street. ( Although if they killed power to the street and made it known ( signs nailed to the posts that the power was off untill they were able to run brand new lines thru I am sure the street would wake up one morning and all the copper would magically be gone thanks to some entrepreneurial people trying to make a buck Saving the power company the hassle and cost if removing it 🙂 Altho The downside would be Those entrepreneurs would be selling the cables back to people to reconnect them back up !😂) At least it might be a bit neater You just gave to remember , When you are in a ' strange country' youve got to go with the flow Even if the lack of safety / potential danger is doing your head in . ( Just be hyper vigilante and have all your 'important' stuff ready to just grab and run incase of fire / incident As Hogan's Heroes Schultz says I see NOTHING! I know NOTHING!! see no evil hear no evil say no evil It's just best not to mention it Although to start with I was a bit like Basil Fawlty not mentioning the war lol. Straight from the power lines into the installation , no hrc pole fuse no protection at all , I'm not even sure if many places even had a switch board , they probably just twisted wires directly onto the ones coming in the window from the street . So if you have a dead short fault It's just direct connection between you and the closest transformer Even when you think the fun is over Dont forget the ARU - automatic reclosing unit ! Disconnect fast and Clear the fault or you will ' go again ' for another spark 'show' But Even after that's over , if you are in a glorified grass hut it's probably on fire somewhere .
i feel like the uk/us vs vietnam with regards to safety and or common sense with electricity has to do with the lawyers, lol
i did my own electrics, i'm not an electrician. I just kept my mind clear. With this.... i would have janked ALL wiring OUT and would start from scratch.
Im in the usa and i do twist wires together when using wirenuts and or copper crimps the twisting makes the solid connection the wirenut is just an insulater to exposed copper 😊
Because testing is non existent for you people, and you have specific "troubleshooters" to sort faults, you'll never really fully grasp how shit and annoying it is to take apart twisted up cables.
I wish I could remember what the book was but it was kind of how to do wiring before the NEC got into existence sort of the de facto standard of the time, And it went over the old-school methods. Twisting together and then soldering is the old way of doing it but then I think there's a lot lost in translation between the professionals who did it and the Don professionals trying to replicate that which then devolved into just with them and gather it works OK we're done.
Thoroughly twisting solid wires can result in a reliable connection. However, there's a lot that can go wrong and twisting stranded wires is one of them. Also, with more than three wires getting a good connection is close to impossible. Back before modern connectors were a thing, electricians in some countries looped each wire around an M3 screw with a washer, then added a nut, tightened it down and taped the whole lot. A good idea in theory, in practice these always come loose. I don't think I've worked in one single place with this type of splice where I didn't find any loose ones.
Monkey see monkey do Unfortunately Monkey either didn't see everything and grasp the underlying concept , Or monkey just forgot to do critical parts like actually soldering it properly
They probably use the unused neutral and earth bars as scrap value.
Dodgy people use those screwdrivers. I used them in my apprenticeship days. Nothing wrong with those in the UK. Otherwise I use a meter. Retired now. Certainly interesting and frightening.
if i was a developer or a house owner id Make sure any cable coming into a house there id make Red=Hot and Green - Netural from there board into mine for a home and maybe add a ground to the boxes incase they make that a legal standard
They need too change their standards that’s crazy 🇦🇺
Change ? I would have thought there aren't any.
Standards are meaningless without a legal/cultural/economic environment that makes those standards matter. People deride "ambulance chasers" and "health and stop-it" all the time, and certainly it sometimes goes too far, but this is what you get on the opposite extreme. A place where noone takes safety seriously.