Layouts don't matter! Do they? | Correcting the bad interpretations about layouts
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One thing I learned about bowling. Changing surface on the ball is more important than changing the layout on the ball.
I've always been a little confused on layouts. The info at 9:50 and on made a lot of sense for me. I wondered why people wouldn't just manipulate the release a little depending on what they're looking for instead of just re-drilling the ball for a new layout.
I gotta say, I bought a Brunswick vintage vapor zone about 5 years ago and had it drilled with my standard 55 x 3 3/4 x 60 and I absolutely did not like this ball. So it sat in the basement for awhile and after watching a video of mo pinel and short pin layouts I got interested how a short pin would work for me. So I took this ball to the pro shop and had it plugged and re drilled to a 2 1/4 pin and man what a difference!! So glad I had this done, it basically took a ball that I totally didn't like and turned it into a ball that I never leave the house with, so in my case I feel layout did make a difference and trust me when I had the 55 x 3 3/4 x 60 layout on it I made all kinds of surface adjustments to try and match up with this ball. Absolutely love the short pin ball.
Very few people will like short pins but I’m glad it worked for you. You took one extreme and went the opposite direction. It’s the one example where you will actually notice a difference. But had you simply changed it by an inch you wouldn’t have seen a difference at all
Thanks again for the work and info JR. ❤
I have been watching your videos alot over the last 6 months. You have amazing information that you have shared. It has helped me moved from throwing down then10 board while standing on 18 to standing in 24 to 26 depending on lanes and looking at 14. Also most of my balls are all around the same layout and but different surfaces to move how i want on the lanes. Thank you for your shared knowledge and information. I look foward to your videos.❤❤
"I Think", you are right, I see it in my game every day I love my layout and put it on everything. I used to use your tester layout all the time until I learned that Motiv equipment likes longer pins so now instead of 4 1/2 inch pins, everything is >5 inch pins. You do you Bo! Keep up the good work!
Imo I think the biggest problem is the vast majority of non pro bowlers judge a ball reaction based on how much backend they get. Ie they read ball motion/lane side to side while pros read the lanes front to back. This is probably where the confusion comes from.
Much of it is yes
I find your information very helpful keep up the good work been watching a lot of your work thanks
I am pretty darned sure JR knows EXACTLY what he's talking about. Hello? .. he does this stuff for a living and been doing it for a very long time. I absolutely trust what he says. Although, I am still wiping off my ball, it does make a difference for me (hack bowler) in consistency (could be, and probably is, all in my head). With that said, what he has said about wiping off balls and how the oil works is spot on. Just another example that JR knows what the hell he is talking about. I find it incredible that someone question JR in such a fashion. People, JR has been around this game for a very long time on a very deep level. Nuff said.
I wipe my ball off most of the time
Pro Shop Operators who have never seen someone even throw a shot, are doing their customers a huge disservice by guessing at a layout. Even a lazy one who asked me to see one of my other balls and asked me how I like it was 1000% more professional than most.
My previous PSO guessed and had about a 7" pin on a ball. PAP was measured at 6 3/4 over by 1 1/8 down by current PSO and drilled with a 4 or 4 1/2 pin. It made an amazing difference. Instead of no flare rolling between the fingers, I have a lot of flare off of the fingers.
Yea, my next ball, I am going to be sure to ask for the actual lane fitting. My first ball I had never tried to throw a hook in my life. They just drilled it in maybe what is standard, not even sure. Then the next one, although I knew better, it was spur of the moment and the PSO just asked to measure my other ball. My assumption is that he assumed it had been checked when I previously bought it and works. So that one is on me for not insisting on a lane observation. Next one I 100% want to have it fitted more correctly. I don't anticipate worlds of difference, more just so I know I am not fighting something I don't have to be!
Thank you JR. You made it plain and clear. Keep doing what you do. I love being a student of the sport. Knowledge matters in order to better your skillset.
Thank you that you explained about layouts. I ain't at your level. 😊 Keep it up.
Love your content jr , I came back to bowling after being away for over 10 years . I have a favorite layout for asym and another for sym , other than that all is in surface changes .
JR love the information brother thanks and keep it going appreciate you.
For me I care on what the layout is since I am a 180-190 average in league. And for pro shop operators and pba pros when giving tips I listen and put the tips in to my game and how I see layouts and balls. And that is coming from me who doesn't know my pap but I am a typical lefty more speed then revs and speed dominant. And I pay attention to ALOT of things in bowling layouts, surfaces, the ball it's self , the lanes , the patterns everything bowling I pay attention to. And with your channel and other pro bowlers channels are really helpful to me on what to look for and see .
I think some people want the magic ball. I haven’t experienced it yet, although I know that I do well with certain balls, and prefer shiny symmetric. I’m currently enjoying my GB4 hybrid in league more than some other balls I own. That doesn’t mean that’s the only ball I use, or that I throw it the same way from game to game, or week to week. I’m constantly trying to throw consistent repeated shots when I’m hitting well and striking. And I’m always looking to make adjustments as needed. Whether that means changing hand positions and targeting, or just making the correct ball change when needed. Many times this is easier said than done. Thanks for your consistent and constructive advice, and showing us some awesome ball reviews.
Well to sum it all up, layouts matter. The only thing is when including the cover, core and surface of the ball, layouts are least important. They ALL are important but at the top is surface, cover is next, core then layout. Now on the Pba or sports patterns that’s a whole different story but on house patterns it’s plenty of friction so layouts won’t really be that much of a difference vs using an abralon pad and changing the surface of the ball. Ron Hickland even talked about it a few years ago: kzhead.info/sun/h7dqmq97ioKAoGw/bejne.htmlsi=B4hkcnkRJqFBPNBC
Thanks Jr
Typically, my "oil track" is just to right of my thumb. But some balls, when settled without taking into account my PAP, the ball will roll over my thumb hole, even releasing it the same way.
Harst or Original Reality, Infinte Physics, Eternity Phi, Virtual Energy, Phaze 2 or Optimum Idol, The Road, Blue Dot.
Could not agree more JR. Good content. The kid stole the show.😂
Mo Mondays explained it best a few years ago with explanations for (pin to pap) "zones" the , A-B-C and short pin. So it's a range of distances spanning from 3.5 to 5-3/4, so 3 differences basically. Then the rule of “N” being narrow or wide, which is sharp to smooth. I use dual angle most times but I also like to know my pin buffer as well for added understanding. Because a dual angle layout can be mapped out for the VLS. Now my local PSO sells more high-end Asymmetrical bowling balls & asks people do you want the most hook, most power that the ball can offer & if they say “yes”which most do, he does 70 x 3.5 x 25 for all the average joes who don’t understand the differences. For the well fine tuned caliber league bowlers he does what we want. Granted we are not like you who can have all the hand tricks to make a ball do anything.
That helps a lot
Thank you
Awesome vid. Can you describe how same layout with diff covers act, for example same layout on solid, hybrid and pearl covers? That would help most bowlers. Thanks Ron
The key that most people don’t hear that JR said is once you find a layout that fits your game. That went completely over people heads!!! They just hear layouts don’t matter, and now the sky is falling.
Bingo
It didn't go over anybody's head. The FB post that started all this "Drama" completely omitted that part. If you listen to JR in THIS video specifically - the narrative is way more accurate. Especially about finding your PAP and a "base layout" or whatever you'd like to call it. I like most of your content JR, I think something most people don't realize is it's hard to put themselves on social media and do what you do - you've posted an insane amount of bowling knowledge, helpful tips, coaching, etc and I respect that. However if you had posted this video first, and explained the "layouts don't matter" like you did in this video, I don't think there would be nearly as much drama. I know for me all I've seen on FB the last two days is everything regarding this, Bowling Science, Simo flipping the bird etc and next to nothing about how an amateur I've never heard of lead the Masters beating guys like EJ(with a 300+279), Simo, Giorgio, Peters, Cooley, Dombrowski. Regardless, nice bowling this week, cheers and all the best.
@@Brogers97 this isn’t the first time I’ve made this video. I’ve explained it multiple times
@@Brogers97 oh, I get it, and thanks for the clarification. By the way, the amateur you’re referring to Booker isn’t, no nobody. Booker is the person who won the 2023 USBC nationals. The DeeRonn Booker is big time, and because the average person doesn’t know who he is. I promise you that EJ, and everyone else, saw him coming. My question is, for all that talent, why is he not on tour? However, I guess the tour isn’t for everyone, and I can’t wait to watch the finals. Back to JR, I enjoy his channel, and his knowledge of the game is second to none. I post content sure, but I don’t get into the detail of JR. I will leave that to him.
Just found a layout that pays with my game
You don't want over flare, you dont want the flare clipping the fingers/thumb. If you do that you can achieve a lot with the right ball (not trying to drill the wrong ball choice into the right ball choice vs getting the correct ball for the application) and adjusting surface as needed.
Congrats on your success in the Masters this week. Been watching you for years. You are the epitome of a pro who puts all of this knowledge to great use, and motivates we fellow pros to do the same work. See you on a TV show very soon, JR.
I appreciate that!
Fit vs layout. I started bowling again after 50 years. I got a used plugged ball drilled for my hand. I was surprised; the ball hooked! They all do. Modern balls hook automatically. But I didn’t like the feel. I tried about a dozen variations of fit. Now I am using that first used ball again after several fit variations. And it “feels” good. No thumb slug. No finger inserts. The ball itself is a weakling with lots of mileage, and I am not a well-practiced bowler. But if I make a decent shot, the ball mows ‘em down. I plan to treat myself to a brand new ball that fits and feels good. It probably won’t change my average. That requires practice and consistent good shot making.
I've always told my teammates, who know nothing about ball dynamics and layouts, that the only number that matters is the pin difference. They only bowl on house, once in a while they'll venture out for state, but usually that's even modified house. House bowlers don't need all of these fancy numbers. Just some surface adjustments and maybe back up the pin or make it lower
A friend of mine was in a "training" with Mo.. this was just after weight holes were being banned.. Mo being Mo said.. Just drill three holes and give it them, it won't make a difference. ..
Its true, I've put several different layouts on my plastic balls and they still went straight.
This makes complete sense, explained well.
Haters are going to hate. I enjoy the videos and the information. Learning every video, plus reinforcing what I know. Thanks Brother
LOL.... YOU'RE ABOUT TO BREAK THE INTERNET! 😂
If it gets people to understand then so be it
JR, I also think layouts are not noticeable for amateurs, unless they are two extremely different layouts -- like a 1" pin and a 5" pin on an assym. But I also don't think it's necessarily a good idea to emphasize that people should try to change their motion by surface adjustment. Recently it has been shown via Jayhawk scanners that a 1000 grit ball gets to about 3500 surface after just 10 frames of use. With in-series or in-tournament surface adjustment being illegal, this means you better start getting used to throwing balls with surfaces between 3500 and 4500 grit, because you are not making it through a series at a lower surface even if your game would theoretically benefit from that. Surface makes the biggest difference overall in any given shot, but is not effective to control reaction over the course of a series. This is unfortunate news for speed-dominant bowlers like me. The only way around the problem seems to be to bring multiple balls -- three or four -- sanded to a dull surface and change between them in less than full game increments in order to stay within the range of a given surface level over a series. Your thoughts would be appreciated. Otherwise I'm basically analyzing my usage case for every ball now under the assumption that I'll generally be throwing it at 4000 grit (close to lane shine).
Question, if my ball has an asymmetric core, and since I cannot throw the same rpm from shot to shot, isn't that core going to be in a different position when it hits the pocket subtly changing deflection and pin reaction?
So if layouts don't matter, HOW are you going to determine what the ball is going to do for someone. If layouts don't matter, then why do you ALWAYS use a layout of 45 x 4.5 x 45. Better yet, WHY did you ask someone how to layout your Motiv equipment because your standard layouts WOULDN'T get the ball to make the turn. I wish Mo was still around, I would have LOVE to see his reaction on this topic.
I think Ron Hickland (CEO, CTD) also had a video highlighting no major difference between pin up vs pin down, which supports JR’s comments
The house shot can make pin up and pin down balls look very similar.
Just let people think what they want. The only thing that matters is the ball motion into the pocket.
Perfectly said. I have 12 bowling balls with the same layout. People at league level also try to get the Pro Shop owners to miracle drill a ball to react a certain way because "they want that ball". You can't out-drill a ball's design. Listen to your pro. They're on the other side of the counter for a reason.
That's the age-old "I want to buy an entry level performance, $120 ball and make it do the thing the $250 ball does." And if I say that I can't make it do that, then I don't know what I'm doing and this other guy said he could do it lol
When you talk 7 inch and 3.5 inch pin I have no idea. Are you saying the distance from the pin? I am going to measure mine feel like mine is probably close to that 3 inch. My balls tend to over react even going up the back and standing 35 board out to 9 45 feet down the lane. My ball speed is too slow for my rev rate. Last week I was able to play straighter with my rino on a fairly fresh house shot. If I use the high performance balls they typically snap off the break point to hard. It's so hard to figure out what to do, I know I need to speed up my ball to more match my revs but until I get to that point I struggle to get strikes.
3.5" pip to PAP is about the strongest pin position... and 7" is literally longer than would ever be recommended. 6.75 is the longest pin position recommended, and most shops won't go much over 6".
Thanks for the info I'm going to have to ask my pro shop about this I just started bowling.
I mean they matter to the point that you want to keep your layout within a specific range. And for better bowlers you can narrow down those ranges to get more specific reactions. But for Joe & Jane average bowlers, they can't tell the difference , just put the pin somewhere safe and let them go have fun bowling.
I’ve had the same layout for like 15 years or more.
So I could have 7 Ball arsenal then, 2 Solid Oily (Assym, Symm), 2 for Medium, Solid, Pearl, 2 for Dry, shiny solid, 1 pearl, 1 Spare, instead of 48 Balls!
Lmao I have no clue why some people in the bowling community are so aggressive. I think they feel intimidated by JR’s bowling knowledge.
i've had 2 of the same ball drilled different. there's a difference. most people just don't have enough skill to constantly adjust their release to "change" a ball's reaction down lane. same problem in golf, darts, billiards, etc.
There’s a slight difference in the friction. Zero difference if there isn’t friction
I drilled a phaze 2 pin down and it went so long, I went pin up and it’s way earlier
They just responded to friction differently. Pin up responds quicker. So if there is early friction it will look like pin up hooks earlier and more while the pin down ball reacts slower. Dependent on the surface of the ball of course
I think the average house bowler should drill every ball with 1 layout. Just a base layout. Let the core/cover be the difference- if you change a layout to make storm ball x act like motiv ball y what’s the point? 2 balls with slightly different layout will not react different for the average house player. At a high high level those differences will matter. Sanding pads will matter more to a house hack than any layout. If you have to have a different layout - like if you have 2 storm x’s GO BIG on the different layout or why bother. 99% of players don’t repeat well enough to know a difference
Good video...Lot of mediocre bowlers wasting a lot of money!
I drill all my balls same layout just have sym and asym and all balls have different coverstock and different to fit stage of lanes breaking down like jave at the minute a supernova with 2000 and tnt with 1000 and nu bkue hammer at 1000 most of the time get out of the supernova in like 8 frame of first game and then into the tnt even though the supernova has less surface the coverstock so much more in strength and when the tnt is done i go to the nu bkue and play straighter with it as iam a natural back up baller and i find yhat the tnt is more continuous through the pins then the supernova toowhen lanes break down
From personal experience layouts have always made a bigger difference than the cover for me. How is that possible? Well, even though coverstock is 70% of reaction you can EASILY change the surface a TON. There are sanding pads, polishes, and slip agents. As long as you get a ball that is remotely close strength-wise to your lanes, you can fine tune the cover to be effective for you. This is why you aren’t allowed to fine tune it once play begins. Once you drill a ball, your layout is set unless you go through the process of plugging and redrilling it, which is time consuming and costly and the original holes change the core of the ball from a density stand point. If drilling didn’t matter, the pros wouldn’t have multiple of the same ball drilled differently. Some people might be UNAWARE of the drilling layout value, but that does NOT simply make that value disappear. They are simply ignorant. On house shots the difference might be less noticeable as the lanes are walled, but on flatter patterns it is HUGE.
Do you think you’re going to get into the pba hof this year?
What a silly question
I would like to meet you in person on day
Cool video talk tech bowling Jr Raymond
If you do not average 210-220 on your house shot, you need more instruction and these small details don't affect you. The average league bowler doesn't need any more than 3 balls. Save the money and learn how to bowl. Learn hand and fingers changes in release!
In my experience layouts are much more important than surface for ball shape. All surface can do is make a ball read the lane earlier or later, but surface will not "shape" the ball's movement through the lane. Layouts are the key to taking a simple sphere and creating imbalance in it so that it does different things through the lane. Even balls that have no core can be laid out in a way to make them have different shapes, something surface alone cannot do. Performance layouts are the key to getting the most out of a ball and tuning its reaction for the player's specs to allow them the best chance for success. This is true for all levels of the game.
Through the pins yes not through the lane. Core position can’t make the ball read in the first 15ft, but the surface of the ball can
@@Tenpindoctors A ball with the same surface grit and core but different layouts will read the lane earlier or later. A low RG/High flare layout will make the ball read the lane earlier vs. a High RG/Low flare layout. Layouts matter.
@@nordattack not visually. The will not change direction any more than the other to your eye. Surface changes is what will make them change. Only the two extreme opposites of layouts will give you a visual difference. I’ve already proved this. It’s not up for debate
@@nordattack the change you see is only to the angle it’s going through the pins.
@@Tenpindoctors ..."not up for debate" I think that ends any technical discussion then.
I have never seen so much double speak in all my life. First, watch any radical throw bot video with the same ball with two different layouts and both balls CLEARLY move differently on the lanes a complete novice could see the difference. Second, you contradict yourself several times in this video alone you said "A different layout will affect the way a ball will go through the pins" but layouts don't matter. Lastly, just say what you really mean, league bowlers don't matter to you.
So you didn’t listen. Typical.
I was waiting for this video after Bowing Science Cult had a meltdown 😂
Layouts only matter in the sun.