proof layouts make no difference before the friction on the lane. Layouts do not create friction
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You just bowled very well in the USBC Masters, no need to explain yourself to people who don't actually want to be a better bowler.
A medium strong reactive coverstock with a Pin near PAP layout helped me tremendously once in a one game decider match on a burned up Montreal pattern. On that condition this ball knocked down the pins so well, because it reacted so mildly at the end of the pattern. It"s all about how the ball goes through the pins.
You will never convince the keyboard warrior patch pirate geniuses in the bowling science forum. Keep doing what you do and keep putting out quality informative content.
I just want to thank you for these videos, I've learned a lot since coming back to the game as everything has changed so much. I appreciate you forward style of explaining things.
Awesome video. I am glad you got more in detail at first I wondered about my short pin. Like you said it went straight. Keep topics like these going. I learn more this way.
Love your passion!😊
Good stuff !
Not arguing: Just want to say that bowling is a sport that needs accuracy. These tiny incremental changes in laying out mean a lot when the ball hits the 17.5th board from 60 ft away and how it slices the 8-9 at the end of the lanes.
Yes
Cool video talk tech bowling Jr Raymond
I KNEW you were going to do this! .. AWESOME! .. Thanks JR !!! ... I love it !!! .. in the overlay, those balls CLEARLY diverged when they went through the pins, NOT before then.
I couldn’t agree with you more simply said.
All my balls pin distance is 6 inches. They all have the same layout as well. 5x4x3-1/2. The only thing separting them is there RG and Diff. I have a magic gem, journey, VEBO, Summit, and a Tour Dynamix. When bowling on Sport or Challenge patterns no notable differences in hook or flare (as the box says)until I change surface.
I appreciate you taking the time to make your point more clear. I know you respond to certain comments. The front part of the lane shouldn't be affected by the layout because the ball is skidding. So of course you aren't going to see a difference with layouts. for the most part. As you stated previously, the layout affects the way the ball goes through the pins. You can see in the throw bot video the way the ball exits the pin deck can make all the difference between leaving ten pins and carrying them. It is the change in direction at the break point and on. That is what I am speaking about. That is what clearly can be seen. As for the layout on the burn, I agree as well that it does matter. A weaker layout can help with over-reaction more so than a change in surface.
Went to your channel looking for an extensive wealth of knowledge in bowling as well as proof of being an above average bowler. I'm disappointed. I'll stick with JR's channel because I'm pretty sure I saw him bowling at the Masters, not you.
I like bowling science & your stuff so I will defend both with my opinion not that I’m right or wrong but what I experimented with and seen from my game. My most recent purchase of 2 Storm revenants, pin up and pin down. Give you they are symmetrical I still use all the layout system to identify them for my reference. So 60 x 4 x 70 & 50 x 4.25 x 20 I would use those 2 layouts on everything if I was forced to have only 2. The pin down one I took to 3000-4000 by hand, the pin up I re did the box polish to reacta shine not gloss. The pin down one is the clear winner for me, I already popped 248, 256, 265, 278,289 with it on a challenge pattern and being only a sub, bowling once per week and never practice. The pin up one is cleaner and less angular. I don’t always buy 2 of the same balls but I loved it so much I had to. My iq nano pearl and Uc2 were the weapons of choice when we bowled on sport.
From radical’s drill sheet the layout A is about 50% stronger than layout D. So if the core accounts for 10%-15% of ball reaction than the difference between the two is only 5%-7.5%. Not surprisingly, that would be barely noticeable on a house shot if you were throwing it perfectly. I’m certainly not good enough that it would matter for me.
Like.the video only been bowling for a.year and a half avg 170 ti 190 in league. This video just basically confirmed what I thought about layouts.
It’s common sense people. Most of us house shot hero’s or league bowlers will never throw the ball consistently enough for it to matter. I believe I have seen pin up vs pin down is a 2 board difference. How many of us can hit the within 2 boards of our target more than 70-80% of the time? It’s the exact reason we aren’t professionals. I’m a 215 avg guy and I’m well aware of this fact. I bowl for fun. I basically take 2 balls to league. Main difference will be surface. But again realize it’s the same shot every week. Pattern never changes. If you go to extremes then that “maximizes” any differences of course. And of course, if pattern changes, then maybe certain layouts match-up better. Keep it simple people. A bowler who bowls once a week in a league does not need an arsenal.
I can hit my target within 2 boards 70-80% of the time. I only bowl league 1X a week. And I also have more than 12 balls. I also avg higher than you. So I guess I’m someone who doesn’t fit your hypothesis. Yet I’m not a pro.
@@juggernaut0629 Do you bowl any tournaments? I hope so. Otherwise, why do have so many balls for a house shot pattern?
I started using pin up / pin down for a while now. To be fair, it wasnt my idea, i saw parker bohn using it on a telecast. Same surface, same ball, reaction/shape i like. If one begins to stop carrying but the shape and shot is good - changing pin can allow you to carry those corners. Surface has always been 70% of ball reaction (at least).
I bowled a tournament at Oak with you New Years day. Wanted to come say hi but you were gone. Was thinking about coming to see you and have you look at my fit!
Come on up. I’ll be there Monday and Tuesday this week
Well articulated, I respect anyone that backs up their opinion with evidence. This also implies core numbers have a minimal effect. So at the end of the day are we just buying chemical soups in the cover? I’m curious around the transition with respect to layouts. If have any resources around it. I’m also curious around the layout matching up to the bowler aspect. Any resources would be appreciated. I love to nerd out about this stuff 😂
I had my PAP remeasured. Then my Axis Tilt measured. Then my ball drilled to fit me properly with the right layout. It actually did increase my scoring by at least 15 pins if not more. My ball finally does what mind pictured I wanted a ball to do. I was a 180avg in league for the last year. Two leagues.. same avg. Over the last month and half, I haven't rolled a game under 200. PAP. AXIS TILT CORRECT LAYOUT. If your PSO cares, he will measure you properly.
Yeah I agree and my pos has said the same thing you aren’t really gonna see a difference unless you go to the extremes with layouts. I’ve see Brad and Kyle idk which one said it but they have a pin up and a pin down and that’s about it for layouts.
The way I understand it, a dramatic change in one of the numbers will change how it reacts off the end of the pattern, say for example 70x5x30 vs 30x4.5x45 will react differently once the surface makes the ball slow down and lets the core take over
Radical balls come with some interesting drilling instructions, tying layouts to terms like Maximum Flip, Midlane Hook and Smaller Hook. On the flip side it shows some interesting numbers how the layout affects the Differential. The bottom instructions on that page say "Always use the pin to PAP distance and VAL angle to get the desired ball motion." I've drilled a few Radical balls for myself and others, and noticed the layout numbers are different by ball, for a given ball motion. For example, ZigZag Most Versatile is 45 x 4 x 35, but Crypto is 75 x 4 x 30. That would suggest that layout is somewhat tied to the core (or at least Mo and Radical thought so), which you couldn't prove by throwing the same ball drilled two different ways on Throwbot. There's a lot of variables here, and I have a tenuous grasp at best on the concept of cover, core and layout, or so I thought, lol.
Sum it up like this Coverstock + surface prep = 85% of ball motion Core design + layout = 15% of ball motion When pros are competing on sport shots that 10-15% is the difference in catching a check….. There’s always an exception, like, short pins make a great difference These subtle differences are not extreme enough to not hit the pocket in most house shots, but they definitely can be the difference when trying to improve carry
@@SteveBoos-ng2zkchicken dinner
If your pso looks at those sheets, it’s time to get a new pso
All I can say is the biggest thing that's helped my average this year jump 10 pins was having a 2nd phaze 2 with a different layout to compliment my normal layout. When my normal doesn't work to start I just grab the other one and it has basically always worked. 1 week I had to go to a 3rd ball to start.
Went from 215 to 225 this year.
Hey JR just was curious in the future whenever you get a chance could you make several videos, one with you throwing two or three of the same balls but different layouts showing the similarities and differences between the balls? Also a video with different balls but the same layout, then you can make one with the same balls, same layouts but different surfaces on the balls. Then lastly different balls with different layouts showing the similarities and differences?? Mainly at the end of the day like you said the surface change is going to be the main difference when it comes to house patterns. Now on sports/Pba patterns layouts make a huge difference due to different patterns and at times less friction/more flatter patterns. 😀👍🏾
I have been looking into pin down vs pin up. Are you suggesting that this would make the most difference for novice bowlers? I have been trying to decide if I want pin down or not. Edit: After watching the whole thing I think I like how you described this. For those of us who aren't at the highest end, it shouldn't be something we worry about getting dialed in.
Most bowlers only watch the ball reaction to the pocket. But what matters the most is the reaction through pocket and off the back of the lane
My wife was having trouble getting her ball to react so I took her to a proshop that found her PAP and it ended up about an inch from her ring finger and short to the pin. They made a nice adjustment to her layout based off of her PAP and she has seen significant increase in ball motion and reaction.
I could see a small difference in breakpoint. But I have more varience in breakpoint in my normal bowling. I had a widow hybrid 2.0 drilled pin up when the PSO had suggested pin down due to knowing my current balls/layouts but I was hesitant since almost all of my stuff is pin up. I found out the hard way that he was right, I struggled for a couple months because the ball was too responsive on the back end. I hit the ball with a 3000 pad so it would start up a bit earlieir and smoothed out the reaction and it was perfect. Now, I'm not sure if the ball would have been close to that reaction with the pin down or not, but that was what I assumed the guy was going for with the other layout.
The numbers are literally in the video. Diif/int diff 0.42/016 vs 0.60/030 The layout is what made these different.
Super small difference that nobody can see with the naked eye
I'm definitely not a professional by any sense of imagination, but after watching hundreds and hundreds of hours of ball reviews, I can see the subtle differences in the ball reaction from the throwbot. Again, it is super subtle, but you can tell how the pin-up ball spins up faster than the pin down one. However, I completely agree with you layouts are good for fine tuning on harder patterns. House shots typically make balls make very similar and won't matter for most bowlers.
Yes a trained eye will see the subtle difference. The average league bowler will not. Just like how when they hit the 1-3 or 1-2 for lefties, they think that is the pocket, when in reality the pocket is a specific board. Not an area. This is why JR makes it clear that to the 99% wouldn't see the difference. But in my opinion it's more like 95%. 4% can see it but don't know exactly what they are seeing and the other 1% are the pros and experts who know what they see.
@@SolidSum93should we tell them what board it is?
The mayor difference that I see is the exit of the bowling balls at end of the pin deck. The pin up goes more towards/rolls more the left and the down pin deflects towards the nine pin.
There's a whole thread on Reddit about that video. I just love these people who go to international platforms to slam people (you) without giving them the opportunity to respond directly. A real POS move in my book.
Layouts create shape through the core's axis migration. Surface friction (ball and lane) determines where that shape occurs.
I think people using surface will probably change reaction more than layouts will. I’ve notice using the wow factor ball cleaner put new life in an older ball.
Thank you for clearing this up AGAIN!! 😀
I have never seen our pro shop ever check anybody’s pap except one young guy they just drill them up how ever they can
So this makes me wonder, how dramatic is the difference between my full roller layouts vs traditional or performance grip stuff. And would layouts make a bigger difference if you were using a LOT of surface? Or on a short pattern?
There is a good throwbot video out there of it throwing the same ball with different surfaces. It is a great visual that surface manipulates motion more than layouts.
Really, in my experience, the layout only determines whether the ball has forward drive, sideways left drive or no drive through the pins, in most cases.
As a 150-average bowler, this does not affect my game at all. That's okay, I have a lot to work on before ball choice or layout are an issue. Also as a 150-average bowler, I really don't know.
Layout is essentially customizing the drilling to enhance the bowler's release metrics, assuming the driller actually knows how to do this.
Back again. 😂😂😂 thats right Jr. Thank you THESE PEOPLE 🫣🤦♀️
I'll keep making these as long as they are needed.
Question I recalled you saying in a motiv ball review video you said Bret told you to try drilling the ball I think he said with a 5.5 pin and you said you tried it and you liked the ball better
Yup it made the ball a little better off the friction. Nothing visually noticable before the friction
I want to address something you said around the 4 min mark ], when you did the two overlay'd. you can clearly see the pin up reving up earlier/ burning off axis tilt and rotation. you say you cant see that or most people cant see it with the naked eye, and you maybe right for the typical league bowler, but that is same league bowler that will throw 6 straight 10 pins and wonder why " cause the ball hits the pocket" layouts fine tune a reaction to say they don't matter is just wrong. I understand the point of the first 40 feet ( or how ever long the pattern is) but the layout is what determines response to friction. you go on to say its slight difference between the two balls. let me ask is how big is difference between a flush strike splinting the 8/9 and leaving a 10 pin, 9 pin or 8 pin? its a slight difference right?
How would you create a layout for a bowler after watching them throw?
I feel bad when all these bowlers talk about their PAP being 3" or 5". Mines at least 7". 8 on a good day ;)
It’s hard out here for a pimp
Great podcast with knowledge.
Here is a question. If the throw bot would to have rolled it more, wouldn't that make it read earlier? I'm just asking, I don't know. I feel like the layout difference could really be seen then. I'm just guessing. I don't know 😅
Dear Billem..Average over 200 over a league season with ANY ball, before you're able to notice a significant difference between balls or layout. I bowl with a Radical fan who is a 175 average, yet on a house shot and no actual line to the pocket wants to act like putting surface on his ball is going to make one iota of difference. My guess Is that like me (a 200+ average on a league pattern) you're not good enough for a layout or surface to mat AT ALL. Bowl a 220 avg with a house ball, then you may be able to talk layouts...otherwise get gud! Lol
Hello, do you have a way of contacting you for drilling JR? Email?
I’m embarrassed for that guy. SMH
How about trying that with a higher rev-rate. The difference is greater than that if a 300 rpm bowler.
Proof that layouts can only really do so much. It's more about getting the proper fit, and touch on the ball at release.
I know this would be a really stupid request. Could you drill a ball for a video where your pap would be so far off it would be unusable. Just so people could see how important it is to have the correct pap on your bowling ball. Please be nice. Lol
its called ball percession
I just throw plastic on house shots. Why complicate it with all those high tech covers and layouts!!
One ball deflects and one drives through the pins.
Sure. Again minor differences at the friction point. Thats exactly why we tweak layouts on tour. It’s not to make the ball hook early or late. Layouts don’t do that. Surface does and cover
@@Tenpindoctors I'm agreeing with you. That's why we have so many different balls with us on tour.
snarky is good and fun. as a high tilt low speed bowler yes it's all about the friction. my ball is super sensitive to the friction. at the same time i bowl in a house where the house shot is nowhere near what we typically call a TYPICAL house shot. therefore layouts mean quite a bit to me personally. i guess that would put me in the 1 percent. glad you allowed room for us. but in general i agree with you for the vast majority.
Layouts shouldn’t matter to league bowlers throwing the ball to the dry with no sense of alignment
I’m going to throw it here and say that top weight doesn’t matter either
I mad about this 😡 I'm kicking a ball return
So your saying that the great Mo is wrong
Not at all. Where do you come up with that?
He's not saying that. I'm pretty sure Mo knew and said cover/surface was most important for dramatic variations in ball motion.
You say layouts do not matter but Mo has said differently about that subject… just trying to get some clarity
@@garlandoverton727 I explain that layouts are a tiny fraction of ball motion. I talk about it in this and the last video
He is basically saying that layouts shouldn't matter for league bowlers. You will see very tiny difference in ball reaction. Surface matters way more. If you do more Sports shots than that's different
Some peoples kids 🤦🏻♂️
More flare potential = More continuation/backend
Not if the higher flaring ball burns up
@@wingracer1614 that is based off if the lanes are dry or not because the drier the lanes get the more a ball will burn up. For example a heavy oil ball like the Harsh Reality automatically is going to burn up if someone throws it on dry/with very less oil 💯
@@cameronmorgan0203 of course but it's also going to burn up in heavy oil as the lanes start to break down. A longer, lower pin can delay that so you can get one or two more games out of it before it starts to burn up. Or your misses right don't burn up and instead get to the pocket and carry.
@@wingracer1614 clearly any heavy oil ball will burn up as the lanes dry up 🤷🏾♂️
the one caveat I have though are those after drilling numbers. The throwbot vids are done on a super cupcake shot. If the layouts are changing the postdrill specs that much...diff is .060 this way, but .046 that way...int diff is .030 or .010 on the same kind of bowling ball...to me, that matters. JR addressed a bunch here and I agree basically with what is being said. I'm more questioning out loud, so don't take this comment as antagonistic
LISTEN STORM, Put AI Core /REX on Infinite Physics, Call it ULTIMATE PHYSICS.
Disagree. They should call it the Sheldon Cooper
I agree with you most bowlers won't see the difference. I also agree that most of the change is at the friction. But I don't agree with you the two videos you posted are identical until the friction. Yes most of the blur is once it hits the friction but the pin down ball starts to move left about 2-3 feet before the outside marker and is a smoother transition. If you look it's 1 board inside at the end of the pattern. If you looked at both shots from above we all could see it better. Now I personally know from experience that layouts do matter. And you talking about motive rolling forward was because it was trying to hook to early because of the layout. Ultimately I understand what you are trying to say I just don't agree with how you are trying to say it. 80% of league house bowlers will not see a difference in their ball. I honestly lost respect for you today because of how you are trying to fight this and say this.
Lose respect all you want. Facts are facts. You’re making up things that just aren’t true. Physics don’t lie. The only way the reactions can appear different before frictionis if they aren’t thrown exactly the same or if they are thrown below 11mph. This isn’t a debate. It’s proven. Get on lanes that are complete trash and burned up then sure you’ll see a difference but like I said, for most who are bowling league. The layout is not visibly different. You lose respect because you don’t like how I say it. That’s a you problem not a me problem.
See, this is what is important for the KZhead viewer (like me) .. LEARNING!!! .. Learning these things from those who are EXPERTS in the field (like JR). I learned a bunch from these 2 videos on this subject. Thanks JR .. I really appreciate it! .. it helps me to understand what my ball is and isn't doing and helps me to understand what I am doing or not doing. When I am not able to score well, the last thing I blame is my equipment, or the lane conditions, or lanes .. the FIRST thing I blame is myself, the ONE thing that I can actually control. My equipment is awesome, if there is a deficiency its with ME. .. Oh, by the way, I am kind of proud of it, last night, after league (scored a nice 256 in league) and bowling with friends until I was about to drop dead, my last game I threw a 268 !!! .. Not too bad for a 61yr old "old guy" who has been bowling less than 2yrs. I have no idea where that game came from, dug deep, but was so tired. Anyway, it's people like JR that has enabled me to learn as much as I have so quickly and gone from around a 130 average to almost 200 avg (about 197 USBC at the moment). I owe it to JR and all the other KZhead bowling content providers that spend so much time and effort to produce these materials. I am VERY thankful all of them! .. Thank you JR .. I truly appreciate you tremendously!!!
Regarding throwbot and different layouts, in your previous video you said and i quote 'those balls will do the excat same thing and in this one show a video where they dont do the "excat sqme thing". Then revise, equivocate and whine about your followers questioning you... There are plenty of other people and places to find bowling advice. I will take your advice and go elsewhere.
Wtf are you even talking about? Yes two of the same balls with two different layouts at the same surface will do exactly the same thing until it sees the friction downlane. Even then it’s barely noticeable. This is why SURFACE is the most important thing. It’s the ONLY way to get your ball to hook sooner other than physical game changes
I’m sorry but you could not be more wrong
Oh but I’m not. Please elaborate where you think I’m wrong
@@Tenpindoctors if you put the same layout on every ball you would effectively be creating the same shape. If layouts are irrelevant then tell me why short pins roll vastly different.
@@nickmanganaro13 short pins are an extreme and also extremely useless to the mass majority of bowlers. You put the same layout on every ball and every ball will be different. Mainly because of cover stock. The surface of the ball is 90% of the balls motion. I’m not trying to be mean but if you’re listening to Mikey you’re hurting yourself
@@nickmanganaro13 I also never said layouts are irrelevant. I said they aren’t as important than people make them
@@Tenpindoctors if you ONLY were to bowl house shot then yeah layouts don’t matter but for anyone that regularly bowls on challenge patterns you need different shapes in the bag. You can’t out bowl bad ball reaction.
Dude, you gotta stop filming with your phone camera. My eye likes it about as much as the evoke
????? Whats the difference I see and hear him perfect
51187corey... Buy JR a 4k 360 go-pro Then your insignificant problems is solved.
You've picked one ball to do this video on,not only one ball you've only used that one fake bowler from that video,while your evidence is compelling the sample size is one ball with one 'bowler' and far from conclusive given that Saying layouts make no difference then saying they do make a difference at a certain point is utterly confusing and confounding,i get it but i've been around bowling since the age of 4 If us poor amateurs want to try to min-max our gear with our up to 10% difference in layout we should be allowed to without pros calling us out because we're not good enough I prefer to match the layout to the ball type and intention to strengthen that intended shot type On a side note having a little war with a facebook group is kinda cringe and the group you've chosen to take on isn't an overall smart move given whose running it,bowling has royal families and that's one of them,your probably better off ignoring them lest you lose the reputation you've built on this platform
The real problem is that group, and even you in your statement, are focusing on "Layouts make no difference" when the comment was "Layouts aren't that important for amateur/league bowlers". Most amateur/league bowlers aren't drilling multiples of the same ball with different layouts for close but slightly different conditions. More than likely, they're going to have different balls, they are going to adjust hand/wrist/etc, or they are keep throwing the ball and wondering why that pin is always standing. Initially finding a good layout that matches your game is a great idea, and I think Mikey is fantastic at giving people great advice to finding that layout or one that will make a certain ball complement others already in their arsenal. But once you've drilled the ball, it is what it is. You can't change it on the fly. You can change surface every time you bowl (before practice ends obviously). You can adjust the way you throw it. I've had one ball re-drilled based on a layout change in the past 10 years. I've changed surfaces on balls like 10 times this year alone (Nationals was the big reason for that). If I drilled a ball pin down vs pin up, I would do what I do for every other ball. Throw it, see how it reacts for me and in comparison to my other stuff, figure out where it fits and use it accordingly.