the complicated ethics of ghostwriters + celebrity books
rich people, poor decisions. why do celebrities keep using ghostwriters?
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chapters:
0:00 what is a ghostwriter
2:01 millie bobby brown’s book
3:55 review of “nineteen steps” by mbb
5:29 millie bobby brown ghostwriter backlash
8:44 how much of her did millie write?
9:40 why does ghostwriting feel icky?
11:00 was millie exploiting her ghostwriter?
12:14 was millie exploiting her fans?
12:55 celebrity perfumes and merch
13:46 the cult of the writer
15:40 a word from our sponsor
16:44 zoella’s record breaking “girl online”
18:00 zoe sugg exposed for using a ghostwriter
19:42 the contract we have with creators
21:37 why zoe sugg was cancelled
22:32 why celebrity books are crucial for the publishing industry
24:45 review of “girl online” by zoella
25:13 james patterson and his co-authors
26:50 why isn’t james patterson cancelled?
27:12 steven king calls out james patterson
27:47 danielle steel responds to ghostwriting claims
29:04 the importance of editors
30:00 classic and popular books that have ghostwriters
31:19 not all celebrities use ghostwriters
31:42 why fiction and non-fiction are different
32:14 the britney spears book
32:57 the paris hilton book
33:40 the prince harry book
34:42 prince harry’s famous ghostwriter
36:15 the vital art of ghostwriting
37:00 the leigh anne pinnock book
37:33 julian assange’s ghostwriter speaks out
38:12 do ghostwriters need credit?
40:00 is ghostwriting ethical?
41:59 questions to ask about ghostwriters
43:12 the kendall and kylie jenner book
43:54 final thoughts
Millie feels more like a producer of the book than the author. I wish they would distinguish that in the book world like they do in other mediums like music and movies. I think we, as consumers, would accept that. Something like written by ghost writer, in collaboration with and produced by celebrity.
i love this comment! genius idea
So whose name should be on the cover in big ass letters? The one who actually wrote the book or the one who came up with the basic, simplest idea? I am saying basic because I am pretty confident that Millie did not outline the book either
@@Littlelightbeam96 I'm aware. Ethics is almost always the compensation for money. But I also wonder who would be credited and prized in a case where the book was to be awarded. It would be quiet funny to see the book regarded as "the best fiction of the year" or something like that and Millie as the writer and people pretending it is true. How is it just?
@@hey8073 for marketing reasons it's millie but personally i think kathleen (and other ghost writers) should at least get a "with" on the cover. like at least make it "millie bobby brown with kathleen mcgurl". that way you get the marketing gimmick and at least the cover isn't pretending that millie wrote the book. genuinely just doing some research and having an idea doesn't make you worthy of having your name on the front page in bigger letters than the title of the damn book.
I think some authors have done that when they’ve started their own imprints to “sponsor” other authors. Rick Riordan Presents is probably the most famous one. More and more authors seem to be doing this. David and Nicola Yoon founded their own imprint recently to publish new underrepresented voices, and I recently saw that Melissa de la Cruz is doing one too. On the mainstream celebrity side of things, Mindy Kaling has also recently started Mindy’s Book Studio in her ongoing partnership with Amazon Books, adding clout behind some up and coming authors, several of them from underrepresented backgrounds.
For me, the big difference between releasing perfumes and releasing books is that they do not earn the title "perfumer" afterwards. However, when they've released a book they often earn the title "author".
very true sir
people are forgetting that author has two definitions; a writer and an originator of an idea i don’t know why people are making this as big of a deal when author is a perfectly fine word to use if you have any awareness of the english language
@@ghxsty_ Actually, these are the results for author on an online version of the Oxford English Dictionary: - author, n. The writer of a book or other work; a person whose occupation is writing books. Cf. authoress, n. 1. - author, v. transitive. To be the author of (a book or other written work); to write. Also: to be the source of (a remark or saying). Cf. co-author, v.
@@ghxsty_ girl got sass
there’s a LOOOOOOOOOOONG road from idea to book.@@ghxsty_
I love it how "I have an idea for a book" became 'I'm an author". If I have an idea for a house design, am I an architect? Lol some people think too highly of themselves.
Welcome to the real word, this is how it works in most industries. You think Elon Musk is writing code or doing lab work for rockets?
writing is diffrent dumbass , althoughi get what u tryna say@@collodionpositive554
@@collodionpositive554 elon musk is an entrepreneur and not an engineer. As for authors, author is a person who WRITES a book
Did you even watch the video?
@@itsaUSBline+
I think the reason people don't mind ghostwriters for celebrity memoirs is because you know that the celebrity has contributed to the book. It's their life story and so there is a real investment made by them. When a celebrity uses a ghostwriter for fiction how is the audience supposed to know if the celebrity contributed anything at all?
Make sure to read the fine print.
Yeah it’s just a marketing machine
Love the connection between Halloween and ghost writers 😂
oh yes!
The writer of the popular Warriors series about cats living in the woods, Erin Hunter, is actually multiple women writing under the same name! They're actually very open about this in interviews, and one of them admitted that there's a whole writer who just writes the scenes where the cats get brutally murdered because she doesn't like cats that much lmao
oof. I didn't realise the brutal murder scene thing. :( I guess I just assumed people who wrote about cats would at least... like... cats.
@@js66613I believe they all love cats except for one. Someone has to do the dirty work I suppose!
That’s actually so cool
I came to the comments to say the same thing! The books are still super popular with the kids, so I was curious and looked up Erin Hunter. That's how I found out about the practice.
That explains how so many books could be released in a short time! Really nice to know this now, thank you :)
The whole "it was Millie's idea and the ghostwriter wrote everything" reminds me of The Nightmare Before Christmas. *Everyone* considers it a Tim Burton movie. His name's right there! It's "Tim Burton's NBC"! but he just had the idea and wrote a rough storyline and Henry Selick directed it. But no one ever seems to mind that lol
Huh... did not know this!
To be fair to Tim burton he also co produced and designed the characters
I think that also comes down to whose idea it was. Was this a story/script that a creator brought on other people to help collaborate on? It being Tim’s story makes it more his, even if he brought on a director or other collaborators. If it started with a director bringing on someone to write a script, then the director has arguably more ownership. And I think people will inevitably go with the most recognizable name, like how Kenneth Branagh frequently directs himself in a lot of projects, from Shakespeare to the recent Poirot movies, even if he isn’t directly involved in the screenwriting.
It’s worth noting that Tim Burton was the story creator and producer of the movie which he spent years developing. He fully intended to make it but was contracted elsewhere at the time and couldn’t. The discrepancy in crediting owes to the fact that people assume because he is a director and his name is on it, that he directed the movie as well. I can’t imagine there’s any doubt of his involvement/influence. I think the difference is that movies are inherently a collaborative process because of all the parts that go into creating them. So Burton can write it and line up the pieces (like getting Danny Elfman), while still having reasonable ownership of the material even though he didn’t direct. Whereas the whole point of a book is the writing. So by not partaking in that single aspect which is 1 piece of 1 (not including editing/covers of course), can you really be considered an author?
Well, a movie can’t be done by oneself and they also put names at the credit ??
You cannot tell me I was the only one who thought Millie's book is memoir cause she's nineteen and its called nineteen steps😂😂
Don’t worry, I was thinking the same thing lol!
Omg same hahah
I thought the same thing 😅😅
Why would a 19yo write a memoir? How much life can she have lived???
@@AllTheArtsymy guess is probably 19 years
I have no issue with ghost writers as long as the person is transparent. Saying “I wrote a book” when you told someone the idea and they did the writing, is what bothers me. I’m looking at you, Zoella, with your ‘writing sessions.’
Exactly. The whole "this book is from my heart," is honestly just cringe. No it is not. You want a movie/biopic done in the future. Celebrity or not, packed schedule to the max, I would never hire someone to literally write my own story for me. How gross and dystopian. Maybe it angers me more, because I want to be an author, and as far as dreams go, that's mine, but I just cannot stand the fake genuineness. Can any of you rich and famous people buy a soul?
yeah as an artist, I think of the recent Generative "AI" Some people these days just write down a prompt and then call the generated picture their art, also calling themselves artists
Unfortunately, backlash like what Millie received is going to make that impossible. In this scenario it seems like had she never been transparent about the ghostwriting process everyone would have gone on pretending she wrote it and there never would have been the backlash.
people are forgetting that author has two definitions; a writer and an originator of an idea i don’t know why people are making this as big of a deal when author is a perfectly fine word to use if you have any awareness of the english language
Because that second definition is rarely used in the common vernacular regarding writing. To clarify (at least in English) when one is communicating that they are the originator of the idea that is explicitly stated as such. When someone says they are an author related to literature/writing---what is primarily being communicated is that they are the person who wrote a story not just a person who had a few ideas about it. What people are getting upset about is that literal publishers are betting on this social/linguistic perception/distinction and using it to IMPLY one thing when it is really just another.
"Assume ghost written until proven innocent" 💀💀💀
I feel like the bad reaction to zoella having a ghostwriter isnt our own different perception, it’s the different approach to the whole thing. Millie was very transparent, Zoe wasn’t up front about the ghost writer and instead kept banging on about how she loved writing and had always wanted to write a book. She set herself up
i feel like she did write girl online though. maybe she had help from a ghost writer for the first book but she showed the whole behind the scenes process of her writing the second two and has co-written two other books since then
watching this as a professional ghostwriter 💀 I just want to say thanks for the "vital are of ghostwriting" section because that perfectly encapsulates why I do what I do I also use each project as an opportunity to improve and refine my own skills so one day when I publish my own work, under my own name, I have more of a chance at being successful
Okay, this is really cool! Do you get to play with style as you write different projects? Or do they hire more based on your voice and portfolio?
@@meganobrien9520 I mostly write nonfiction and go based on the tone and style the client wants for their book. Obviously a book about self-help will be way more informal than a book more in the instructional and educational sense... But fiction is a bit more loose... My style will always come through since I'm the one writing but often there are clear notes on genre and vibe and stuff
how do you get into it? do you have to have written your own books to do it?
@@sarasaeed6349 Haha, honestly, just lucky job hunting. I have always loved writing and I stumbled upon a job that let me do that.
that's so cool! how did you get into that? :)
Jack predicting the acknowledgment is killing me 🤣
I am a ghostwriter and you literally choose the career. We know that our work will be published under a different name. Once a text is sold, it's not yours anymore. The benefits are that you don't have to care about marketing or printing or anything. You write raw text, bring an idea to life and your work is done. Sometimes it's nice to have the clients ideas and guidelines. Other clients give me creative freedom. I have written stories that I would have never thought of myself and it expanded my creative horizon. Being a ghostwriter is right for me at the moment. Maybe later I'll publish my own book but for now I am okay with my blog that I have and the ghostwriter work I am doing. I am helping others who have an idea but no skill when it comes to writing. I also do it in my native language, so there is not so much competitionm
I'm trying to get into ghostwriting myself. Is there an agency you would recommend I apply to? Thanks!
How does one become a ghost writer
I wish I'm famous/rich enough to afford ghostwriter, all I have are crazy ideas (of many medium) but no fucking skills whatsoever, lol.
funny - as an author I always feel exploited for ghostwriters if something like this happens. In my view, the hard (creative) work of writers in general is not appreciated that much
Why don't you write your own work and defend these people? You say you can "write better" and slave away for these elites.
I work in a library and couldn't get my head around why James Patterson had so many books, even in children's fiction and adults non fiction! This makes more sense 😂
Haha, yep, between James Patterson and Rick Riordan basically being one person publishing houses, many a book is being written that wouldn't otherwise get the publicity and marketing it otherwise would have by their no name actual authors :D Also can be a bit of a mentorship as well as collaboration .
There was a story on James Patterson on CBS Sunday Morning where he showed that he had a team of ghost writers to help him write all of his books. So basically a writing factory.
I think I can condone James Pattersons situation to a certain point, because the writers name is also printed on the cover of the book, most of the time.
I figured this out when V.C. Andrews kept writing after she died in 1986.
I think that putting ghostwriters' names on the covers is a great direction to be moving in; it gives credit where credit is due and ensures that the celebrity is upfront with their fans and shows appreciation for their collaborator. I loved this, hope to see more video essays from Jack in the future!
one thing though, with this one they still actually didn't put the ghost writer's name on the cover 😅
The direction this is moving towards will be AI ghostwriters. Don’t have to credit anyone. Don’t have to pay. Don’t have to wait. It’ll be exactly to your liking. As if that ain’t in the works already lmao
"collaborator"
@@sweetestaphroditewell AI isn’t that good so I’m assuming we’ll still have ghost writers
@@m.josena4485 It’s advancing scarily fast
Ghostwritting for childrens serialised books actually sounds like a dream job
My first experience with ghost writers was the 'Geronimo Stilton' series, as well as others within his universe. I can't say I ever believed that a mouse wrote them though
what do you mean a mouse didn't write them? if you actually read them you would know that Geronimo Stilton, the mouse himself, actually does write them!! he's really talented ❤❤❤
THIS JS SO FUNNY
This story also made me think about those books. Such a talented mouse.
Come on man, next you're gonna tell me Santa isn't real? :/
Thea Stilton and Geronimo Stilton were sooo good ! I think it’s different with kids books because it’s not one person taking the credit, it’s a series of authors writing under the same pseudonym. Everyone gets the same amount of recognition. Sort of like the Rainbow Magic series, which is all written under “Daisy Meadows”
My sister has a manuscript that has an agent and has been circled to publisher after publisher. She has gotten feedback more than once from BIG companies that “I love this book. This is exactly what I like to read. I don’t think we can sell it though” and gets passed over. I think what feels icky about ghostwriting is the conviction that if a celebrity had their name plastered on the cover instead of hers, it would have been purchased by now. Compliments don’t make a career.
That's so unfortunate. Why can't they sell it though if they love it and it's exactly what they want to read? Even without a celebrity name on the cover
*shrug* i don't know if we really give enough credit to the one skill that celebrities are really gifted with - marketing themselves. I don't really think it's fair to point at a celebrity and decry their ability to literally sell anything, and wonder what yourselves or others might be able to do in their position...
That must be crushing esp considering what does get published, looking at you book toc
Maybe if she has a platform like KZhead she could have a better chance to publish, knowing that many KZheadrs call themselves writers and publish rubbish, I'd feel better buying something from a person whose work has been qualified as good.
Another example of how sctual talent and skill get passed over by name and persona, just like with music and acting. Sad to think of how many beautiful stories, songs, and performances we miss out on while mediocre ones are shoved down our throats.
Imagine if celebrities had art shows where they had artists who actually did the paintings and the celebrity just came up with the idea for the paintings. But the celebrity put their signature at the bottom of the paintings
Idk I feel like they would considered something different (idk why but like something like creative director)
On this topic - artists actually do this! Especially famous ones who do large-scale art. Damien Hirst, Jeff Koons, Takashi Murakami, Marilyn Minter, Michaelangelo, Andy Warhol to name a few. They come up with a concept, or make a mini version, or lay down the first layer of paint. Then a team of assistants actually make the final piece. But the artist is the only one who signs their name on it. The signature doesn't guarantee that the artist put the brush to that canvas.
Similar to the Nancy Drew situation, I remember finding out as a kid that Daisy Meadows (the author of the Rainbow fairies series) wasn't a real person and was just a name used by several authors to write the series - my tiny child mind was blown!
a libarian told me about that when i was 8, and i didn't process it until later
At least it was a group under an umbrella name, it's not the same thing, think about them as a theater company 😉
This just blew my mind omfg. I’m in my twenties now and this makes so much sense…
I remember thinking the same about Warriors Cat series - it was something like 3 or 4 authors punching out the books haha
Whaatt? My childhood..
for zoe it was more the fact that she did "writing segments" in her vlogs to show she was actually writing girl online in real time but then it was found to be ghostwritten :D so for me as a fan to see her work so hard on it made me want to support her only for it to be found a lie
It's very obvious to me that she had a very strong influence in the book though. She probably did write elements of it, or at least wrote detailed plans
@@CaviidaeI’m pretty sure she wrote the sequels herself, or mostly herself
im sure she wrote/contributed as well dont get me wrong. plus, idm if she had a ghostwriter. it was her debut, ofc she should ask professionals for help if shed like. it was more about how in those vlogs it seemed like she wrote it and i remember seeing it in many vlogs, she could have mentioned it in one of them that she had a collaborator. i was a kid back than and felt like i lost a bit of trust in my favorite youtuber at the time (a parasocial rls ik but i was young xD). but anw, i think transparency is always good. at the end of the day, a good book is a good book and so what that it was ghostwritten? but i still think they deserve a credit too on the covers :)
I do remembered those vlogs and she was often referring to someone who was helping her, writing with her... so I always assumed it was a ghost writer, and when she was attacked for using one I was confused because I thought it was obvious from the start.
@@queentatouneyes I remember her always mentioning that she wasn’t writing it herself
Those 45 minutes flew by. I would love more deep dive/essay style content like this, really great job.
YES litterally
came to the comments section to say this! So interesting
Agree! Also appreciated how well researched it was.
I was a ghostwriter for 2 years for a write-to-market publishing agency. I wrote about 350,000 words across 3 novels and 2 novellas. It was an invaluable experience as I was able to prove to myself that yes, I can complete stories. But it was absolutely soul-sucking work. Slapping "The End" on the books was a huge thrill and relief until it became depressing because I knew that nobody would ever connect the stories I'd worked so hard to craft to me. What's so fascinating is that I found a few of the novels later and author bios for those novels are a complete fabrication because the authors themselves are fictional.
I would probably just not put that much effort into writing for someone else, under their name. I write historical fiction and do a lot of background research, but couldn't see myself working the same way for someone else to get the credit. It would be totally different if I collaborated with another writer under a fictional name, because that would just be a pen name.
What do you mean the authors were fictional?
@@hannaht4612 The publishing house created fake authors for their ghostwritten novels. For instance one of the books I ghostwrote was credited to a mom-of-two who ran a Tennessee horse ranch with her husband. That person doesn't actually exist at all (I checked all over social media). It's part of marketing 🤷♀️
@@TheSlurpy11Now that is surprising. Kind of dark. It’s too bad they do this.
Are you reading my mind? I had just searched Google about celebrities and ghost writers when I got the notification for this video.
In discussing established authors and co-writing books, I think it’s also good to mention Rick Riordan and what he’s done to create opportunities for new diverse authors to create their own books about their own culture with the Riordan presents series. Following his success with the Percy Jackson books, he’s created this new series for authors to write middle-age books about their own cultures mythology, using his name and reputation to promote them, but making it clear that these authors wrote them themselves. Not exactly ghostwriting, but similar to what you mentioned about James Patterson co-writing his later books.
interesting. i LOVE that model. it's kind of like an apprenticeship
Yes! Someone else mentioned the idea of a “producer” which feels like the Rick Riordan model. I don’t know if he co-writes these books, I know some of the authors are already established, but its such a cool way to create an imprint where you get a broader, more respectful series of different mythologies!
Patterson retains most if not all the rights of his collaborations and the ghost writers don’t get very much money from it as they are supposed to be getting “experience”. I hope Riordan’s model is much better!!!
Rick has no involvement in the actual writing of the books under his imprint! He’s been talking about this on his recent book tour. While he and his team seek out authors/books that they think will fit under the umbrella of the imprint, the authors all work independently and he considers his role just to be lifting them up/advertising them because he has the privilege of being very well known in in the book world and having an association with his name can get them noticed more easily!
The part about James Patterson reminded me of a somewhat common practice in French cinema, especially comedies in the mid 20th century (maybe from the 1950s to the 1980s, something like that) : to have one person working on the plot, writing the events, inserting "visual" gags, and another focused exclusively on the dialogue. In that case, they were both credited under a specific title, it was clear for the public who did what, if they were equally famous, they would be on an equal setting in the credits. I think it tells you more than having some sort of hierarchy where you give the most famous writer the credit for the screenplay, and then the younger, less popular writers will get secondary credits which doesn't really tell you anything about what they did. Now that I think of it, there is also that sort of distinction with illustrated media, where you can have an illustration that has been sketched and lined by one person, and coloured by another, because some people are good at one thing and not the other. In order to get a good book, you need both a nice prose and a compelling plot and characters, maybe detailed research on the subject matter, I think ideally, not only should everyone be credited, but mentioning who did what, at least succinctly seems important to me. The situations described in the video are very diverse in terms of level of involvement from the authors, ghost-writers and personalities involved, and I think just listing everyone is not enough. Apparently, Patterson's type of plots are enjoyed by some people, and from what the video says, he does a significant amount of research and outlines that are precise enough that it feels wrong to compare it to a celebrity giving their name to perfume. I don't think the disdain expressed by authors who do everything is warranted, and I think that valuing the final writing part over everything else is also an issue. Maybe authors who don't plan much in advance and write "in the flow" have more difficulty realising that the overarching plot also takes effort, because they do that while writing, and perhaps not so consciously as a writer like Zola who spent half his day writing his current novel and the other half researching and planning the next one, and thus, they imagine that someone who didn't write the details barely did anything. Then there is the issue of compensation of course, ideally, which apparently isn't great for Patterson's writers (co-authors ? prose people ? the ones who write the final draft), obviously everyone should be paid enough on top of getting credited appropriately.
I’m a translator and some of the debates around the translator’s visibility are quite similar. In recent years there has been a move towards recognising the work of the translator, and this seems to be what is starting to happen at the moment with celebrity collaborations.
Eyyy, happy to find a fellow translator! Are you in the area of literary translation specifically?
@@nala3055 It's always nice to 'meet' other translators! I mainly do literary translation from Russian and French into English, as well as writing and teaching. What are your languages?
I think the thing that really gets me with ghost writers and why it feels so sour, is that we approach and consume books as a look into the mind of the author. It's a little shard of perspective. And when it's written by someone who's not credited... well, that's why it feels so duplicitous.
this
This doesn’t feel too different than science/tech - staff employees’ work is usually owned by the company, and profited off of by the co. While solely created by the employee who can’t patent or even use their own creation if they leave the company… they’re rarely credited outside the company
I see your comparison and I agree, but I think that the fact that literature is of the arts. The publishing industry is still..an industry and is expected to be of that corporate, soulless business practice. They're of course going to publish a book with her, and anyone with her level of stardom name on a cover. However, with that being said, and with it being written by a ghost writer, her words aren't there. It's just business. There is no art, soul, work, heart, or authenticity of the human condition for the reader to attach itself too. I haven't read the book, but I read the first few chapters as a sample online, and it off the bat, reads like an assignment, because it is. It's just very annoying and almost has a dystopian feeling, especially because she markets this book as being something from the heart, but "the heart" was behind the scenes, and it was made with a stranger's fingers. I'm aware 98% of celebrity books are not written by them, so I disagree with the hate Millie gets, and the valid criticism needs to be what prevails. I just think it's a little more disingenuous and icky because literature is supposed to be an artform, not an assignment.
The excitement I feel when jack uploads will never be beaten
Right! And a 45 min video as well. Yay!
When I met one of the ghostwriters of Nancy Drew and The Hardy Boys (he wrote about 12 in either series) I nearly passed out. It felt like meeting a celebrity but like a hidden one. Like meeting an actual ghost.
I know someone that teaches high school English. A lot of his students have never, ever read fiction before. But if he finds them a book that they really enjoy, they keep reading. They’ll even come to him for more book suggestions. One gateway book can make a huge difference.
How does one get to high school never having read a fiction book before?!
People seem to forget that “ghostwriting” is also something we’re all extremely familiar with in the music industry. Not all our favourite singers write their own songs 🤷🏻♀️
But they do sing them and some people are referred to just as singers whereas others are singer/songwriters
@@asahdo that’s true!
Of course, but are they marketing the song/album as "from the heart?" Or is it just a generic pop song designed to sell and stream for people to listen to while driving and cleaning? If it's pushed as something emotionally driven and personal(like Millie's book and most celebrity biographies) then it deserves the criticism. Literature is meant to explore deep theme within and without of the human condition. Not that there aren't usages of those themes and questionable throughout the medium of music, no doubt, it's just that I think with literature, it's meant to be explored more intensely and analytically. It's a longer form. This doesn't make musicians any less of an artist, just in a different light. The song/album speaks through music, not just words. It's meant and designed for more of a feeling to get you to heasp on to the theme of it. With a book, it's just words. You have to dig through setting, plot, and character development for hundreds of pages. It should always be personal, imo. Especially if you're writing a story of yourself, or dealing with your families struggle or hardships. Why would I care to read about that, when you can't even be interested enough to write it? The same goes for a piece of music, but anyone can listen to and vibe with a #1 of a catchy pop song. I'd even argue that we sometimes listen to those catchy pop songs to escape the nuances of our human condition, that is endlessly seeking answers, purpose, individualism, love, and spiritual companionship. Even in smut, rom-com, fluffy adventure stories, these theme prevail because they have to. They drive the story. Again, not that music isn't or can't be as meaningful, I just think that with literature, even with reading for fun, we are seeking some form of enlightenment or companionship. I think it's a different realm of seeking and wanting.
Clearly you're mixing everything. Singers have one job: singing. Songwriting is not part of their job. Writers have one job: writing. Now imagine a writer who doesn't even write their own books. Lol
@@cyndrianaa I’m not mixing anything, but thanks. Just merely made a comparison. Also songwriting can be a major part of a singers job. Aside from that, I think writing in and of itself is a lot more nuanced than we realize, of course it’s disappointing to find out our favourite celebrity didn’t write on their own like they made it seem (although MBB thankfully did credit the ghostwriter), but at the same time, like Jack states, the ghostwriters are not being exploited.
I definitely think the biggest problem with celebrity ghost writing for fiction books is that fans definitely buy them because they think the celebrity wrote it and they want to read what that person wrote. It does feel like a trick.
What I find interesting with Millie's novel, is how some people are quick to dismiss her creative input in writing the book because she collaborated with a ghostwriter, and yet blame solely her for the poor quality of the story. I mean, make it make sense 🤷🏻♀️
Similar thing happened with translators some years ago, we were used to reading translations and assuming that if it was bad it was the author's fault and same if it was good, and sometimes the books are affected by translation, mainly poetry. And nowadays when we mention a book in a video we mention the author AND the translator
Because different translators treat texts so differently!! I love looking at translations, I actually own like eight to ten different translations of the Iliad because it can be so very different... but yes, a lot of people don't realize or acknowledge that! Which is making me realize how devastating it would be if the first translation of a given piece is bad, which could potentially damage that author's reputation in that language forever...
I translate mangas and such and usually when i read something I feel is off in translated comics or novels, i automatically assume it was a translation problem first lol. There are many more poor translations than there are good.
I never had a problem with the idea of ghostwriters. Like you said, there are many things that involve collaboration with other people to create. But I always thought it was weird that it didn't just list both people as the creators. Like 'Nineteen Steps by Millie Bobby Brown. Written by Kathleen McGul'. I think it's great that They were at least open about it the whole time. Hopefully that will become the standard.
open to a certain extend, if you follow MBB online and keep up with news surrounding her. if you're just browsing online or in a book shop, stumble upon her name and book, you would have no idea about the ghost writing book.
Great essay! What feels icky to me personally about ghostwriting is that I hold novel writing in such high regard, I consider it a feat to even attempt. It's a laborious process for even those with a lot of resources. I also feel that (to a certain degree) coming up with the story idea is a fraction of the work. Everyone has had a great idea for a story, but it's the crafting of that idea into a finished product that connects with readers that is the really challenging stuff. You know right away that these people didn't put in that kind of work. It's probably hypocritical in a lot of ways, but there is something about books that make them feel like an especially intimate, personal form of art. I do think it's great that Millie Bobby Brown has been so transparent about all this, but I still find it ridiculous to print your name on the cover in bold letters if you didn't do the writing. But I get that all of this has been for $$ and to hype the certainly incoming movie.
yeah i completely agree. i honestly think it just shows such a lack of respect for the art form from the person who is hiring a ghost writer and not even putting their name on the cover.... like i've been trying to write a novel for years. if i hired a ghost writer and asked them to write my idea then slapped MY name on the cover that would actually make me feel ill.
Completely agree. Everyone has ideas. The most difficult part is the creation.
Exactly!!
You've articulated what I feel about the whole issue. I get Jack's point that these ghostwritten books sell and generate income for the industry, but personally I just feel disappointed overall. Honestly I'd buy a book if the premise appeals to me, regardless of whose name is on the cover, so putting a celebrity's name there without them actually writing it... feels icky to me.
I 100% agree with your opinion. Not everyone has to be a writer. If you have an idea but you are not able to put it into words, with great story writing, don't write a book. I have a notebook full of book ideas but clearly, I am lacking the determination to write. So I work a regular 9-17 job, that's it.
The idea that this was written to make a film adaptation makes so much sense, it will be so much easier to find funding for that film project now it's a bestselling book than if millie was trying to get a script made. Also she'd never get backlash for collaborating with a screenwriter. I'm sure this was the thought process hearing you say that and it's so interesting!
I remember when I found out Erin Hunter was just a pen name for a group of ghost writers who write the warrior cat series I was like WHAT?!? And now that I’m older it makes so much more sense cuz goddamn there is probably 100+ of those books now and they pump them out so fast and the warriors lore is insane 😭 I stopped reading the series a while ago but I have respect for everyone writing about fighting cats
No wonder not a single booktuber has ever made a “reading all james patterson books in a month” type of video 💀
would be a stretch to even read them in a year, or even 'as they come out' with that steady output.
I don't mind if it's a memoir/autobiography because it's just the celebrity dictating their life for the author to write in an appealing way. The celeb has rights to the story bc its their life. But fiction gives me weird vibes. I think with fiction, to be named a writer means you have written the prose (in my mind). All the celebrity participates is an outline of a story if its a ghost writer story. Would be nice if on the cover all authors were mentioned e.g. 'celebrity' with 'ghost writer'. Think it would be cool if ghost writers also got to answer book launch q and as/be on the panel too. Would be interesting discussion in fact on how to work with a celebrity etc
I think it's different than endorsing a perfume or other products because, unlike products like that, books are designed to have the AUTHOR'S name on the cover. Book covers traditionally have the title and the author's name. So when the celebrity's name is where the author's name normally is, that indicates that they wrote it, not that they simply endorse it or helped produce it. I feel like the celebrity's name should be separate from the author's name, like the Reese's book club medallions.
as a budding writer, i never understood all of the hate about ghostwriting because i would happily ghostwrite for someone. at the end of the day, i just want my words to be read, and i want people to enjoy what i've made or at least think about what i'm trying to say, and if being a ghostwriter is the easiest way to achieve that, then so be it
I guess you want to be hidden and not have the fame. That’s understandable ❤
yep! i’d hate not being able to go out (not that authors get that much fame anyway)
The biggest shock I had regarding ghost writers was when I found out that the racing thrillers by Dick Francis were written by his wife. Apparently, it was an open secret in the industry, but, reading them in the late 80s & early 90s, the marketing was heavily centred on 'former champion jockey now writes bestsellers about the sport of kings'.
I read so many Dick Francis books as a kid and had no idea! 😮
According to Wikipedia, Mary was his researcher & collaborator. It appears that Dick did at least some of the writing.
The James Paterson thing reminds me of something I heard about Hans Zimmer. Apparently his studio basically write and produce the scores for his movies with varying amounts of input from him, to the extent that he’ll sometimes come in and play a few notes on a keyboard and leave the rest of them to it. Not sure how true this is, but it definitely ties into the ‘artist as brand curator’ feeling
Omg this just ruined Hans Zimmer for me 😭
@@itslonda4157 If it makes you feel better, his early work is still "all him," and even when he transitioned into "collaborative composing" in the early 2000s, he was generally transparent about composing that way, even if he wasn't specifically naming his collaborators (though he did sometimes! Look at Pirates of the Caribbean!). I can't speak to the level his collaboration takes now, but I guess I wouldn't be surprised either which way.
I've seen quite a few orchestral manuscripts by old composers (think Barque or Romantic eras and such). Many instruments have just a basic motif written out and a cope to the copyists to expand upon it in this and that key. By the way, the majority of them had absolutely awful handwriting!
A lot of this controversy about Millie Bobby Brown comes down to her fans being fairly young - this might just be their first exposure to the concept of ghostwriters.
LOVE this video essay era!! Long form content and learning is the best combo!!
exactly
low key this is jack’s best video yet. i feel like he articulated so many of my feelings on this topic, but i also learned sm ☺️
This was such an excellent video! I've never thought about how celebrity memoirs could be important for the publishing industry to take a chance on new authors and how ghostwriters provide a service for people that can't write at a professional level but that have a story to tell. I think we all just want transparency so naming the ghostwriter/co-author on the cover.
if the story Nineteen steps is something that intrigues you but you don’t want to read MBB’s version, I HIGHLY recommend The Little wartime library by Kate Thompson. It covers the same story but from a librarians POV
now that seems actually more interesting. thanks for the tip!
Jack is so right about these celebrity books getting people into reading. I’m dyslexic so never had that passion for reading. For me ‘Richard Hammond: on the edge, my story’ got me into reading 😂 now I am never without at least three books on the go. From Hammond to Tolstoy 😅
I love how he connects points and ideas and gets his message across while also being funny. Ugh. Yes.
I think a great point of comparison are the great painters that have their art works hanging in museums all over the world. But we rarely talk about the people that helped them create the artwork by either making the paints or even painting parts themselves to the extend that experts sometimes wonder whether we actually count the artworks as having been painted by the artists and part of their work.
Especially since loads of the historic painters actually did a lot of managing all their apprentices while they did the doing. Its a very good point. I always find that interesting for a lot of the historic religious painters since they were enormous paintings that took years so makes total sense they'd have had a team working under their guidance. But those people are only ever mentioned when they become famous names in their own right after that. You're right about all the things that enable the artwork, but it's even more direct than that throughout history.
Though I note you did say about the painting themselves already. But its a little shocking how many people they'd have sometimes and how little the painter would do yet its so rarely noted at all.
I have a friend who's a ghostwriter and it's paid his bills enough that he can finally start pursuing his own projects, the downside being that some of them he's signed NDAs for so he can't always bring up proof of his skills to people to get investors in his own writing. He's very good at what he does! But that means that he often goes without credit, which is unfortunate. He doesn't mind though, because it's paying his rent. I personally don't think I could do it, but I respect that he can.
Jack you literally changed my entire opinion on ghostwriting. I used to hate it but now I want more of it because one day I will be that debut author that needs money from celebrities 😂😅
I absolutely loved Girl Online when I read it years ago but I wasn't aware of Zoe Sugg. I got it as a Goodreads recommendation so the author being a ghost writer didn't matter to me. No deception because I didn't care. As for Millie's book, I feel like if it was really bad but was atleast written by her, people would have been more accepting as it would have been authentic. But because it's not written by her at all, and people don't really like the book, it feels like being deceived into reading a bad book.
yeah, i've seen a lot of people defend poorly written books by influencers or celebrities because "they worked sooo hard!!!" so like. even if she ended up writing a terrible book i think most people would be like leave her alone!!!! it just feels so dishonest bc millie is getting the credit and the sold out venues but realistically it's kathleen who did all the work....
Excellently stated. It really does feel like a trick, and then you learn that she didn't write it and all of those "this story means so much to me," statements just really fall flat. Does it? How can something mean so much to you if you didn't even take the time to try and write it?
As a new author, I understand why other writers can be enraged by this practice. It takes us so much work and time to craft our art and then we have people who had the idea for a book and never wrote it getting all the credit. But honestly, most people I know had "ideas" for books, but none of them sat down to do the work. Basically, anyone can be an author by these standards.
As an editor in publishing, I loved this entire discussion. Thank you for putting it all so eloquently. And you were 100% correct in that these celebrity books actually help get other people, with a smaller inherent audience, published. One could not live without the other nowadays but the discussion of credit and ethics remains interesting.
I have to disagree with you here. The number of unknown unpublished authors being picked up by lit agents a year still remains minuscule, so where and how exactly is this truly helping anyone who isn't directly involved (agent/celebrity/publisher/etc) in the ghostwritten book's creation?
What a positive, thoughtful and well-considered response! I'm both a writer and also a teacher of Morals & Ethics. I personally don't see a problem with ghost writing, as long as it is upfront and honest, and the writer is fairly compensated. I'm a firm believer in the idea that everyone can write, but honing the craft can take years, and actually working collaboratively on a project can be a great way to learn. People have commissioned art for centuries---this is really any different. Also, if Holly Black wanted to commission me to write The Folk of the Air from Cardan's POV, I would leap at the chance and not even ask for credit! XD
I feel the exact same after watching this video- when he showed that ome part of the article where it talks about how there tends to be more of an individualistic nature in society , it really tied it together. the phrase “it takes a village to raise a kid” came to mind at that, amd that’s how I view ghost writing , bringing a village together to create art.
Dear Jack I hope you see this comment because if you do it’ll mean the world if you know the difference you’ve made. I found your channel around February this year and have really enjoyed taking in all of your book recommendations and comments on book culture. I don’t really like to use KZhead or social media to much but your channel has always felt so warm and since starting to watch your videos I’ve began to read more and more. I’ve just finished open waters and am on track to reading 20 books this year (this probably the amount you get through in a week but to me this is a big achievement) getting back into reading has provided a place to escape to when the stress of uni gets to much. It’s allowed me to look more into other peoples experiences and whats going on in the fantastic minds of the authors you’ve recommended. Thank you for being the encouragement to get me back into reading it’s made such a difference to my life. Lots of love Cece
I know I’m not Jack but ahh! I’m so glad you also find his Chanel such a warm and kind corner of the internet. Having a wholesome and just chill space to unwind online really does make all the difference. Also 20 books is amazing!!! I know so many people who don’t even read one book a year x
@@George1789thank you so much that’s so sweet Xx
This is so cool to read. 🙂 Don't compare yourself to others - 20 books is GREAT especially when you're just getting back into it! Just try to remember that big BookTubers like Jack do this for a living, so of course they can read 150 books in a year. If you have school or a job or family to take care of, there's no way you can do that!! So just do what makes you feel good. 20 books this year, maybe 25 next year... challenge yourself if you want, just don't ever let reading become a chore or stressful. That's not its purpose! Enjoy yourself!
20 books is SO good!! I’ve been reading for years and only maybe do 10 books in a year, you should be really proud! X
@@safaiaryu12thank you so much!!
Jack, this is why I love you! You bring another viewpoint and level of education to the BookTube world. Don't get me wrong - I LOVE watching people play TBR board games and do monthly wrap ups, but I always know that when I watch your channel, not only will I get entertained but I also get educated. :)
I'm a writer and it takes so much time to write, even a short novel, and you do it because you love it. I can't see celebrities having the time to sit down and write honestly. It's good they start showing the ghostwriters. Britney wrote a fiction book many years ago with her mother. I was young and naive to believe it. She must have had a ghostwriters. Still, looking forward to reading Brit's book because I was a teenager when she was a huge star worldwide. She still has a place in my heart lol.
Britney posted herself on one of her Instagram captions that she was working closely with a ghostwriter. And then it was reported that writer is Sam Lansky.
Make more videos like this. This is Jack in his final form.
I have grandparents who have told me stories about things they experienced during the war. I could easily say "woah thar would make a great book!" And I think most people could. But if someone else writes that story then they're the author. Period.
I used to work at a bookstore and one of the best events we hosted was a man who had been wrongfully imprisoned for years-he was very honest that his memoir was ghost written and he gave her kudos at the event. I don’t know, it felt nice.
I was a zoella fan when she announced her book. I preordered it right away. When I got it I was so excited. I loved seeing her writing in her vlogs and to finally have the book was incredible. I was so heartbroken when the ghost writing news came out I felt lied to and betrayed. I still haven’t read girl online to this day and donated the book years ago. I don’t mind ghost writers but I wish the line was more clear in marketing.
I learned about ghostwriters first thanks to Nancy Drew. Now that’s quite the history. Edit: Jack mentioned it at 30:21
I love this discussion. This is something I think about a lot with music too. We idolize singer songwriters, but having more input on a song can make a song better. I don't understand the backlash if credits are clear and we see recognition of everyone involved.
it's funny, i read elliot page's memoir and it was such a strange format of vignettes with a ton of unnecessary detail about the history and landscape of his (and my) home province that i immediately was like, oh he WROTE wrote this 😂
LMAOO I haven't finished his memoir yet but I actually really enjoy the vibe and the story is unfolding. Like it feels very genuine? You can very much tell that he put his heart into it. Even just the style of writing gives off the sense of being well read and well versed in different types of storytelling lol.
these are exactly the type of videos i look for in booktube so you can imagine my excitement when i saw that you posted a video essay!
Recommendations?
I completely love the format of this video. It's so interesting, informative and just entertaining.
I actually didn't know Nancy Drew was a ghostwriting collab, that's actually pretty cool! Honestly the popularity and long history of ghostwriting makes me think even more of the theory of Shakespeare ghostwriters.
I really like these bookish video essays, I think its content we desperately need! Also, you always do a brilliant job when it comes to considering different POVs and counterarguing them with well founded points. 10/10 really
I’m here as a new reader. You’re right it just took finding the right book. It was spare, growing up wizard, and friends, lovers, and the big terrible thing to get me hooked. It just took a book by someone I wanted to read about and I’m grateful ghosts writers helped them tell their stories and now I’m finding more books and I’ve consumed more books in the last few months than I have my whole life. I’m also new to this channel but I’m a little hard of hearing and there is a lot of like-not echo but it’s hard to hear your voice so even with subtitles I missed a bunch but I enjoyed what I could hear. Thanks!
As a bookseller, I learn so many things from you. Thank you so much for creating not only entertaining but educational content ❤
You should definitely do more video essays. This was so well made and I really enjoyed it!
Truly I think this is one of the best discussions I’ve seen about ghost writing. It was nuanced and well researched and well written. Kudos!
i personally love video essays and i also think your voice and also your way of phrasing sentences really compliments this format so im a big fan!! besides there are so many topics in your niche interest circle that would be super interested to cover so im very excited for the future of your channel now
love, love, LOVE the 45 min format! Hoping for more essay-videos
Absolutely loved this video, please do more if you can! :) It was like watching a thesis/article instead of reading one and not losing focus because it was visual
I really appreciated all the different aspects of ghostwriting that you brought up. It feels as though it's a letdown when your favorite celebrity can't do everything when you've seen them do something like acting in Millie's case so well. Ghostwriting is something I knew existed but didn't pay much attention to but know I feel like I will.
Great essay video Jack ! You cover a good range (if not all) the main threads around ghostwriting. Plus the video felt like 20 min and not 45, so well done !! 😊
This essay was presented so well - I usually have a very short attention span but I sat and watched this video start to finish without any outside distractions. I’d love to see more of these in the future 😊
Me too! My attention span is not the best but I was hooked by this video. So interesting and informative!
I love this type of video so much. I am fascinated by how our perspectives shift with the situation. Tangentially related, I think when celebrities are open and honest with those they work with, they have a great opportunity to introduce their fans to people/works/genres they may not have known before. I recently have learned more about literary translators in this way, and my world was opened to how difficult the job must be and problems they have being properly credited. It was an area I had just never thought of before.
this is such a good topic to have long-form content about! honestly I have never given ghost writing much thought. so having someone tell me about it such an accessible way with so many examples and points of views, especially from ghost writers themselves, is amazing! thank you for that! :)
Jack I loved this deep dive/video essay format. Would love to see you cover more topics in this way!
I loved the detail and nuance in which you presented this topic. Hope to see more videos like this in the future!! Also, I would love to see your list of favorite celebrity books actually written by the celebrity.
i love this style of video jack!! it feels like more of a video-essay around the topic of books. more please!!
This is one of my favorite videos of yours! Keep up the video essays, Jack! Very thoughtful and informative. 😊
I’m really enjoying this kind of deep dive video from you! They’re really insightful and I would love to see more.
Amazing video essay - well done❤ This’s so admirable that u did research and made some new format
It is very peculiar the way we perceive the creative process of writing as an entirely solitary activity compared to other artistic endeavour. Funny you should mention the renaissance and the birth of humanism and the cult of the artist because all of the absolute 'rockstars' of renaissance painting were not working alone. They had tens of assistants who were painting the largest portion of the work (based on their sketches) and the 'artist' was only applying the final touches. That's true for Raphael, Michelangelo, Leonardo and so on! Even now in other arts sectors (I work in theatre) a lot of people contribute to a script, and dramaturgs sometimes shift the entire axis of a piece even if they are not cited as the author, but I guess theatre is a collaborative effort by nature. So interesting to investigate our bias towards the writing craft!
I loved the video essay format you have going on! Your normal videos are great but having a longer video(Even if it means waiting a bit longer) was very refreshing. I feel like it came from the heart because you gave yourself the time to dive into those topics and your own opinions on them:)
This might just be my favourite video of yours! I'm absolutely living for this video essay era ❤
Great video as always! I did my master’s thesis on translators’ subjectivity and their relationship with authors and it’s insane how accurate the parallel with ghostwriters is? So much of what you said can apply to translators! I never saw it that way before lol, so thank you for that!
thats so cool
I’d love to read that thesis, it sounds really cool
@@SparkzMxzXZ thank you guys, though I’m afraid it’s definitely not a masterpiece haha
I really enjoyed this analysis! Would definitely love to see more of these essay-type discussions if you ever feel like making them!
In the film industry, you will often see credits like "idea by...", "story by..' and "screenplay by..." so I think it would be a good idea to use that with celebrity fiction books e.g story by Millie Bobby Brown, written by Katheen McGurl".For celebrity memoirs, I really think they should just be marketed as biographies, as you said you are reading them because you want to know their story and not necessarily to read their writing. You will read a biography of a person you are interested in just as much as you would read an autobiography/memoir so they should just be treated the same way. We don't need ghostwriters to prop up the industry when the celebrity provides in-built marketing whether their name is on the cover or not.
so well said... all of it.. I feel like you covered this so well and really acknowledged each side. I loved this video narrative.