Understanding The Modern Dating Economy - James Bloodworth | Modern Wisdom Podcast 370
James Bloodworth is a journalist, podcaster and an author.
The modern dating market is a mess. From polyamory to OnlyFans, Tinder to Trad Wives. No one really knows the best approach for navigating these waters, and the lessons from our parents no longer apply. James has dedicated an entire podcast series to the most interesting parts of the dating economy and today we're going through them.
Expect to learn whether porn addiction is really a thing, why sexual inequality is the only inequality no one wants to campaign for, James' insights around what Tinder is doing to dating, why 17% of people think that approaching anyone is harassment and much more...
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#dating #tinder #onlyfans
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00:00 Intro
00:20 Economics of Dating
11:19 Dating in Modern Society
19:40 Why Sexual Inequality is Ignored
37:14 Will It Be Harder to Create a Family?
43:17 Effects of Porn & OnlyFans
52:54 Ongoing Education on Consent
1:04:02 Is Masculinity Inherently Toxic?
1:14:49 Where to Find James
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Yes team. Here's the timestamps: 00:00 Intro 00:20 Economics of Dating 11:19 Dating in Modern Society 19:40 Why Sexual Inequality is Ignored 37:14 Will It Be Harder to Create a Family? 43:17 Effects of Porn & OnlyFans 52:54 Ongoing Education on Consent 1:04:02 Is Masculinity Inherently Toxic? 1:14:49 Where to Find James
I like how they praise women's sexual liberation, only to concede, around the 23 minute mark, that the dating market which resulted from this ostensible "progress" is a toxic waste dump.
FWIW, I understand that it's necessarily a requirement of being part of the mainstream, "normie" culture to praise things, like feminism, which yield objectively bad outcomes, it's just amusing to observe two otherwise thoughtful, intelligent analysts succumb to this tendency.
@@JeffCaplan313 can you explain a non historical buff?
@@JeffCaplan313 i have the same intuition. I even think we can't go over a certain threashold of "smart" people (i mean a % of smart ppl in a population) and we have passed the optimal amount two or three decades ago.
@@JeffCaplan313 One key difference with this event is we've never had this amount of women not pass on their DNA. Some of the most hypergamous women are waiting too long and/or not "settling". I think we may see a reduction in female hypergamy as a result.
I also feel it's a toxic waste dump BUT if you do figure out how to play the game then there is a Neverending supply of casual sex with decent looking women and its actually pretty easy. So, these guys are probably in the 20% that are on easy mode and although they admit it's awful, they thrive in it. Think about FAST PASS ticket holders at Six Flags; they see the people in line and think it's an awful long line and bad system BUT they're the Fast Pass guys. So, it works for them.
Feminism, reliable birth control, dating apps and no fault divorce have destroyed the world of male/female relations.
@@aqmohra4 yet ironically it's men who pay more tax than women so we're still paying but not getting any of the benefits.
@@edenbreckhouse Historically women have taken on the non-taxable, but huge burden of having and caring for children. The time your mom spent caring for you was not taxed. Although I think that's starting to change. Men are not expected to do more at home and I think that is directly responsible for the declining birth rate. Truth is most men don't really want to do much of the work of raising children. Honestly, I don't think most women did either, but I suspect that women have a much stronger desire to have children than men in general. I see birth rates continuing to decline especially as there are more opportunities competing for time outside of work.
@@i486DX66 I agree that it seems that women desire children more deeply than men but that kind of contradicts the idea of labelling childcare a "burden". If I desire and acquire a dog, I don't then get to complain about the "burden" of dog walking and dog food.
@@fiveleavesleft6521 You can enjoy the dog, but not necessarily enjoy the part of cleaning up after your dog. I imagine most dog owners don't enjoy picking up their dog's shit off the sidewalk. Similarly, a lot of parts about being a parent can be considered a burden. Doesn't mean that it wasn't worth it to have a kid, just acknowledging that it's not all fun.
It's less about who desires what and instead a out what is being pushed and incentivized. The education system, work, welfare system, etc are against the nuclear family. Change these things and the birth rate will go up, as it has in other nations who doing so
Men judge women on the basis of them bearing healthy children, women judge men on the basis of them having a career in order to support a family.
@FlapJack NI Its more like woman want a man with good character and it just so happens that men who can sustain themselves generally speaking have a stronger character. Even then, every woman is different so generalising can be very harmful because you will just scold any woman who doesn't like you as "chasing money".
It's usually way more simple than that. All this redpill blue pill manosphere crap wildly overcomplicates things. Normally, somewhere around college age or a bit after, two people meet, think "I like you and find you appealing". They date for a while, and then get married. It's pretty simple stuff. All these mind games and status competitions are at the top, between the very highest value in terms of money/attractiveness.
Apparently Chris doesn't know that he himself is a Chad.
Chad is just new generation speak for being a man and knowing they are male. You don't need to be a chad, just be real and a man.
I think he knows, he just plays it down.
@@jjohanesson9139 "Chad" is a term used for objectively attractive men. Being "real" and a "Man" has nothing to do with it.
@Sez B who was the female psychologist?
I would say its the right thing to be graceful about it. What would you rather him do? Flaunt it instead?
Being close to 50 I remember a different time. There's a TV show from the '60s and '70s called Love American style that is a series of skits about dating situations. If you want to get a sense of how times have changed watch that show.
Oh gosh yes!
Im so tired of trying to date in modern society. I typically do well too….but im just so so tired. Dont know what to do or how to change it..
Very tricky times, indeed. Other than KZhead, I don’t partake in social media. I have also found that I’m attracted mostly to demeanor which I cannot gauge through online dating. And although I try to leave myself open for convo out in public settings I am rarely approached (maybe due to RBF 😐😂). I don’t blame men, I feel they’re in a lose-lose situation in today’s world. Masculinity is being presented as negative and it makes me so sad to see women no longer respecting that trait.
Women might say they don’t respect masculinity but I can assure you it’s those guys most girls go for. Biology beats culture.
At the same time masculine men no longer want anything to do with efinists.
Keep it to yourself. No one cares what women think.
What's rbf may I ask?
"Women don't need to settle down with men that they aren't attracted to" may understate the case. It's more like, women rate "attraction" above everything ELSE in a relationship, reiiability, loyalty, authenticity, etc.
Really, I think I could turn that statement around and say the exact same thing about men.
@@haselbasil2488 It would be a pretty sad world if both of us were right. Here's one time I hope we're both wrong.
@@tomau3946 I hope we are both wrong too. 🙂
If a woman isn’t attracted to you, how is she expected to be intimate with you?
@@Zikomo7 Our mothers, (and women from time immemorial) were intimate with men for reasons over and above attraction. While attraction is a factor, the modern tendency is for it to make for a one dimensional decision.
Friendship and dating have become a dying limb that many find better off having amputated.
seems everyone's too "busy" for each other.. either that or the ones that do keep in touch are emotionally abusive
@@wesley6442 facts man
It seems to be that the best anyone can do is focus on character growth (goals, hobbies, personally meaningful endeavors) and treating people with love, dignity, and respect (follow the golden rule). Do that, meet people, and see what happens.
Are you including in that work/career pursuit for men?
Lol “hobbies”…most people’s hobbies are Netflix and video games wtf…
You will still get eaten alive by the women out there. The women have gotten worse and worse because they are far far overvalued themselves. They refuse to "settle"; watch Kevin Samuels show absolutely mind boggling.
@@beeftestosterone4840 you don’t know that
@@beeftestosterone4840 Glad you said most
Wide is the gate that leads to ruin, and narrow is the gate that leads to life. Just like with gambling addiction, online dating is a waste of time and stress. That is the wide gate. But the narrow gate is to find work (even voluntary work) to see people 5 days/week, go to events (like gaming/anime events), make conversation with people about whatever you know a lot about, and just aim to be friends who go out to eat/drink together. The offline way is slow and only a little rewarding, but the online dating way is like paying with your mental health on slot machines.
Amen. In fact, online dating is just another consumerist reduction of human values to commodities that can be marketed by social media. When relationships become transactional they nothing but worthless, cruel domination on both sides.
It's interesting to note that every version of a successful solution examined here is to provide for women and society. There is absolutely no acknowledgement that men have desires or preferences. Men aren't even treated as human in this conversation. They are service providers alone. At the same time, a woman's feelings are treated as reality, even when facts contradict the feeling. This conversation is exactly why there is no reason for men to step up. The only nonviolent solution left to men is to walk away.
You're absolutely right! I agree with you 100%. I wish more men were like you and would walk away from dating completely. It would mean so much less competition for me! 😜
@@socialenigma4476 so... you're glad there's less competition for the things that others guys decided have no value. Think that through. Now think about the fact that "not dating" and "not fucking" are very different. Now realize that you're happy to have easier access to the leftovers that guys like me are done with. Still happy? Still feel like bragging?
@@socialenigma4476 If you guys provided a good service you’d probably be happier. Have some humility no?
@@work9466 Does the lion show humility in the presence of the lamb? I'll leave humility to the weak.
Totally agree. Couldn't watch pass the 20 minute mark. Just a lot of beating 'round the bush and making sure not to offend anyone (well, except men). Too mainstream and therefore of no substance or consequence.
It would have been nice if there was more of a conclusion for this. The message seemed to be "dating sites are awful for men unless you're photogenic, successful and rich" but at the same time James Bloodworth himself met his girlfriend on a dating site! So even a critic of them is still using them. I have not had sex since before Covid-19 and even then it was infrequent and mainly with women I was not attracted to. I've tried dating sites but they just sap my attention while getting me nowhere. My plan is basically to never go on a dating site again but then I am currently never meeting new women.
I would say your only realistic option is getting out as much as possible and taking up hobbies that have some women involved. Either that or do what I did and save hard and get out of the West. It's a big, beautiful world out there and many countries are not yet as gynocentric as the West.
@@fiveleavesleft6521 Hmm, it's going to have to be the first one then.
@@fiveleavesleft6521, Sometimes I look past to my days in university. I sang in the university choir. Every Tenor and Bass had a girlfriend within that same choir. (except me... i got lucky elsewhere). The unichoir (as just about any choir) with a male / female ratio of about 20 / 80 always has been paradise for males wanting to hook up with a lovely lady.
Why sleep with women you’re not attracted to? Is it because the women you ARE attracted to don’t find you attractive?
@@sallyhemings2295 We can pretty safely draw that conclusion from the available information.
Be a man, go out, get courage, talk to the girl you like in person, get rejected, find love. Reject the stupid apps and the modern stupidity when it comes to dating.
Yes reject modernity embrace pastoralism
Ah, do you mean 'man up'?
Use the dating apps if you want. They are convenient. Don't get too discouraged by rejection. It happens in many other areas of life as well. Work on improving your market value (become healthier, learn, focus on your career, etc.)...which you should be doing anyway even if there was no one to date.
Be a man, talk to the girl you find attractive, get rejected and arrested because she finds you creepy
"Live, love, laught" he thought. JK op, i get it and i agree. It's just the current mood of october is cynical. Enjoy life and do good. 👍
One problem I see always getting overlooked is there is usually nothing being said. If there is an issue with someone talking to you and nothing is said then there is no way to know. This was a huge problem with my ex, no matter what it was always a problem if I didn't understand something but when I said to explain it I got literal silence
Haha! Apparently, I didn’t understand how dating apps are supposed to work. I met my husband on one. He was the first and only guy I met in person. Oh well, still wouldn’t trade him in! Feeling very thankful after seeing this video and reading the comments.
@kristen Williams the anomaly doest make the rule. Glad that happened fir you but what everyone is talking about is true. Women have the option to be more picky because they have all the options at their fingertips. Before dating apps people had less options so they had to actually go out in the world and that's when regular guys had a chance especially in small towns because they interacted with them. Now women want a tall good looking man that makes six figures. Very unrealistic and delusional.
I'm 51 and been on dating apps off an on since 2018 when my marriage ended, I've used pretty much all of them and I've had short and mid length relationships from them. My experience is that most women have a poor understanding of presentation of themselves, some women are way too confident, way too demanding, have significant barriers up to a relationship, don't know what they want, always say they're not into ONS and a huge amount want you to make them laugh. Also most women want the guy to message 1st, many want to know about your job right from the get go and at my age are not interested in anyone with young children. I don't how guys are doing on the apps but from the things I hear from women it seems men are just as bad at the whole online dating swamp. And almost everyone is using a filter or being somewhat dishonest in one way or another. Personally I think it's an awful way to meet people but at the moment it seems like the only way.
My issue is that although I'm your age, the men I've dated get too physical on the first meeting. That never happened to me before and it's really frightening. I'd like to get to know someone before he gets all handsy. Lol!
I set up an account just for fun I didnt post anything I dont really want anyone I just wanted to see the clown show it funny as hell had me giggling for days seen one 300 pounds got six kids each kid lookes like a different race and she post Im a high value women I know what I want and I wont lower my standards funny as hell
For most men dating apps are a total waste of his time and money. The top 5% of men get lots of attention, while the rest only get 5% of the attention.
Do yourself a favor and subscribe to a channel called - entrepreneurs in cars . The man is around your age and he will clear up majority of your questions.
just curious what women thought of you
"Lookism" is a great example of why correlation does not equal causation. Good looking people are likely to be more confident, sociable, and in general have a better psychological state based on the confidence their looks give them. This is much more likely to be the reason they earn more at their jobs, if that is indeed the case. There's no way straight male bosses pay male employees more because they look good.
@@joane24 cope
18:47 'Women are reluctant to discuss dating inequality partly because there's a legitimate fear of a regression to some of the kind of socially conservative norms of the past ...' This is an interesting point, and James goes on to explain in more detail, but I would say that it's not really good for us as a society to ignore the massive sexual inequality - which, like all inequality, is widest between men and men, not men and women - since it isn't going away, and is leaving a lot of men feeling alienated and resentful, which at best will result in them being listless and withdrawn, and at worst, violent and aggressive.
@Lisa Bell Do you, by any chance, work for Domino's Pizza? * Disclaimer: Other pizza restaurants are available.
@Sez B You are giving her the attention she's craving. Ignore morons.
The dating inequality was always a thing. Only 5% of mammals are monogamous humans are not one of them. Religion was a major tool to keep monogamy intact especially in big cities. It used to be enforced like such in the Roman era.
@@colbalt95 I used to tallk in these terms as well. I'm also somewhat of a biological determinist even to this day. Used to make arguments about humans not designed to be monogamous. Firstly: Were very unique in the animal kingdom. Almost everything we do is different from most animals. Secondly: You forget that we build cities, communities, we're extremely social oriented. Monogamy is important to societal stability. Hordes of unmarried men, and fatherless children. Not so go for society as a whole. It also prevents the free for all that's going on right now. Sexual inequality rampant, all the chick's chasing alphas, which leaves them unhappy, and the majority of men priced out of the market. Also, not so great for scoeity as a whole. Thirdly: You're forgetting about the fourth trimester. We have some of longest pregnancy periods of any animal on earth. The mother has to push the baby out before its done. Which is why we're born helpless and why we need such time before a child becomes even reasonably self sufficient. 9 months of pregnancy, combined with several years of child care would suggest that hominids have always required a fair bit of participation by the father.
The only thing he got right he still got wrong. It’s important to discuss this, there he’s right. The reason they don’t want to do it is false flag argument, they just like anybody-else don’t want to give up their privileges, simple as that and some times they don’t see it or understand it because they are feed with a narrative from journalist like James that they are victims.
Interesting how the dating market is evolving, and over time there will be less happy/fulfilling relationships for both sides.
I’m really interested to see what dating is like in 2040. What the birth rate has dropped to, what the marriage rate is, etc.
maybe there is a lack of substance, essence humanity amongst each other.. maybe our materialistic world warped our perceptions of one another.. every interaction seems to lack depth and meaning
I’m checked out.. I have had a serious relationship in nearly 5 years now. I was stuck in just these meaningless relationships with men that don’t want to settle. So I just made the decision to just be single for the rest of my life.
A great interview. Listening though, I thought a lot of the views, ideals and even vocabulary Chris communicated are taken directly from Jordon Peterson. That's not a bad thing per se, I like to listen to them both. I would have liked to have heard more about the effect some of these issues have had on the mental health of young men. Like I believe many might say, I've lost many friends from suicide in the last few years who had given up hope of finding their way or having access to dating opportunities. We need to do more to help men at the bottom of the social hierarchy deemed "losers" and "incels" . It seems we are inadvertently telling them they are pathological and oppresive whilst simultaneously overlooking their plight. We are in such a state of flux currently.. it's difficult to see how this will all play out.
I like a lot of what Jordan Peterson says but when it comes to women I find him way too in thrall to women and nowhere near judgemental enough.
@@hendraprasetya2999 kind words indeed
Some very good points, but largely seems like the blind leading the blind. Fornication culture is inherently unstable, chaotic, and self-destructive.
What a great name for it
So glad I'm a conservative Christian living in a relatively conservative Asian country...
That is literally the safest option for a man nowadays
We're coming for your country too...muahahaha
The guest misses the point on "female oppression". Men were also "oppressed" because the Christian ethic mitigated against male polygamy as well as the excesses of female hypergamy. In our current age of people doing whatever they like, women and men are doing exactly that. Women are being ultra-hypergamous and men show zero commitment.
Islam is the solution
Exactly. One of the ideas behind the sexual revolution was "men are out having lots of sex" now we can to. Statistically this doesn't make sense. If women weren't out having premarital sex who exactly were these men having sex with?
@@craigthebrute3262 they don’t want to have that conversation
@@craigthebrute3262 not for you it ain't. Only the rich chad muslims get multiple women. And if the richies have 5 women, that means there's 4 poors who get zero women.
@@craigthebrute3262 Islam is right about women? I wish that meme took off more. It really is a mindfuck for wokels.
Awesome conversaton, really enjoyed it.
It is not that women don't want to marry guys that don't work. They don't want to marry men that earn the same or less than them. With the right to earn the same money as men, should come the responsibility to lower their financial expectations of a partner. There isn't an infinite supply of money in society.
Except women are the ones who not only have to contend with pregnancy but disproportionately take care of children. Let's say a woman makes $100k and a man makes $50k. They get married, have a child, and the woman takes time off from work. By being with the man mentioned above her household income went from $100k supporting one person to $50k supporting 2 people and one baby, which is VERY expensive. Her financial position and security got worse by marrying and having children with the man. Where she had $100k before, now it's 1/3 of $50k or approx $16.5k. That's significant.
@@rockymountainskies1744 Let's pretend it were a couple that chose not to have kids... her choices still wouldn't change. She'd still want to marry someone that makes more. It is really nothing to do with having kids. With having kids, if the combined incomes were enough to raise a child, it's enough. If it is two people making 60K they can cover all costs comfortably but she'd still want someone that makes more than her.
This James Bloodworth is just a journalist without any knowledge about relationships. He’s like the rookie reporter that had to write the horoscope or relation advise in the lokal paper because nobody-else wanted to do it.
Yes, pickup artists are very annoying! They don't accept NO. They are like people who want to sell something and don't accept NO and try to persuade you endlessly. This is really annoying.
Women control access to romantic interactions. There are no restrictions today. We have a global dating choice reach, and no remaining social or religious powers maintaining forced manogamy. Women focus on the top 10% of men. 80% of men are not celibate by choice. This answer is simple.
Men control access to commitment. Look at marriage and birth rates. What women buy into is access to an illusion. How many women has a decent guy been with that he knew all along he would not commit to...plenty more than ones he would.
ONLY 10 years later? A decade is a long time in a person's life.
Haha! Apparently, I didn’t understand how dating apps are supposed to work! I met my husband on one. He was the first and only guy I met in person. Oh well, still wouldn’t trade him in! Feeling very thankful after seeing this video and reading the comments.
Thank you both for a fascinating, nuanced, intelligent conversation.
Lol
Thanks guys I really enjoyed this chat. My single clients struggle with dating in this world. Lots of lonely people out there who seem like good catches but can't find a partner and find online dating a nightmare. Lockdown here in Australia has exacerbated the problems
If you're a man, go find your partner overseas. You're only wasting your time in Australia.
36:00 First says he supports women having lots of sex and than says many get a "raw deal" from hook up culture. You can't have it both ways
Those aren't mutually exclusive/contradictory, he is simply saying he has no problem with it but it often doesn't work out to the woman's benefit. One relates to his own views the other to the outcomes of reality.
Agree. This chat was pretty mundane and didn't present any interesting points or talk about the repercussions of said economy, of which there are Many..
@@the_endling Totally pointless, can I have my hour back?
This episode deserves more views
“The pornification of sex” Hits hard.
Seeing some of: tech expands women choices so they can optimize their sexual strategy, "good, but there are some interesting dynamics". Yet men in late 30's going for early-mid 20's women, morally questionable. Why? It's because they are 'supposed' to go with the late 20's to 30's woman. The default assumption is that it is good/morally-neutral for a woman to optimize her sexual strategy and the man is morally questionable for not sublimating his own in service of it. This is not correct.
One of the main objections to men in their late 30s dating women in their early 20s is the power dynamic that can sometimes be toxic, or even predatory. Older men have wealth that younger women don't (and might need), and he might manipulate her into dating him/continue to be in the relationship even if she isn't 100% sure about it. If she gets financially dependant on him, she would have a hard time leaving if he mistreats her because leaving would mean losing all financial support. That can be a toxic power dynamic. I'm not saying what women are doing is 100% morally oka either,, only that people have a very important point to make on the other side.
@@nishita3084 We can easily mirror your points regarding the power dynamic between men and women, eg. Younger women have sexual attractiveness that the majority of men don't, and she might manipulate him into dating/continue to be in the relationship even if he isn't 100% sure about it. If he gets sexually/emotionally/intimately dependent on her, he would have a hard time leaving if she mistreats him because leaving would mean losing all sexual access/emotional support/intimacy. That can be a toxic power dynamic. The reality is that in Western liberal democracies women can earn their own money, but (heterosexual) men cannot get their sexual and intimacy needs met without women. As such, I would suggest that the balance of power is much more in women's favour - particularly young women's - than men's.
@@nishita3084 In the modern world that guy in his late thirties can be pretty certain that he is far more easily replaced by her than she is by him. That is one hell of a power in the woman's favour. Also, trying to spin women being highly attracted to a man's resources as him manipulating her is one hell of take. I'm sure you wouldn't feel sorry for an older guy who loses his beautiful twenty something girlfriend to a younger, hotter guy and likewise I don't have much sympathy for any woman who gets starry eyed over higher wealth and status than her. They are both responsible adults with full agency and responsibility for their choices. As a caveat I think that in countries with extreme, real poverty and no social safety net you have a point but in the West? No.
@@charlieweaver6322 Yes, women can earn their own money, but not a 22 year old who just graduated from college who is dependent financially on an older guy. Yes, manipulation can happen both ways, but if the woman leaves, she has no money and that has wayyyy more negative consequences than the other.
@@fiveleavesleft6521 Its not always manipulation, but it can be. Notice my wording. I'm not "spinning" anything any way. I'm not defending alllll that you have mentioned, only defending the concern many have with older men dating much younger women. Nothing else.
guest was off his rocker
The reason I find this interesting is an idea that I heard from Peterson where he said that maybe some of the things like no sex until marriage and other issues like abortion were somewhat managed by old fashion values. When you throw those values away or you interfere with them with technological evolutions like the birth control pill you really destabilize the landscape. It's made things more complicated and sure there are some benefits to woman having more control over their bodies but the arguements that we co evolved with some of these old fashion norms may show that they actual had some utility outside of the arguement that they were mostly sociological pressures or ways to "keep woman down". We're seeing now that 50% of woman 30 years or older don't have kids. I heard that somewhere. Like,wtf is that
In the 60s we called it "the flesh market".
The more I know about women the less women I want to know.
😔😅😅😂🤣
Well dude, that's how a lot of women feel about men.
@@haselbasil2488 yup
Same happens to women regarding men. Trust me.
There is nothing to 'understand', just how to walk away when red flags present themselves.
This is an episode that needs to be watched, not inly listened to. Chris' facial expressions speak volumes :D
Seem to me that many girls/women on dating apps have resigned to thinking guys arent serious about relationships so they mostly just look for sex. That way atleast they avoid the heartbreak that a failed relationships would incur? Its quite weird for me since Im looking for a serious relationship but have come to realize that most women Ive dated just wanted hook up sex (wich they didnt get).
No I think most are unrealistically hunting to lock down the Golden Nugget. They get the Nugget and it runs away. Test driving a Ferrari does not mean you own the car. Women just don’t seem to be able to figure this out and keep aiming well above their market value. All the while they get older and less attractive and then you get the where have all the good men gone. The good men they are talking about never wanted them and never will.
Can you please give the authors and book titles for all the books mentioned in this thanks?
The conversation in around 19:48 is so interesting. Women on the internet collectively complaining about certain things in terms of dating and men, but how many of those women are hypocrites and cause this confusion within men? I’m sure I’m guilty of this, too. To all straight men, I’m sorry.
Thanks Chris. To me, you came across as balanced, pragmatic, and realistic about the current world. James' seems to have a degree of cognitive dissonance; trying to balance more traditional blue pill / white knight characteristics (grew up in the country, somewhat sheltered, 'Jesus Saves' t-shirt) with the modern realities of interpersonal relationships. Not a criticism mind you, just an observation. More generally, modern feminism (in some ways) feels like mass of contradictions where things are desired without the responsibilities that come with them e.g., women want to earn as much as men but we don't want the responsibilities that come with them (in the context of a relationship/marriage, where generally the man is still expected to look after his family financially). A mismatch of feelings and logic, chaos and order, you could argue. Another aspect that could be explored as well is the distinction between what men and women desire from a sexual partner, versus what they desire from a partner in a long-term relationship. They're markedly different and in some ways being appealing in one regard can prohibit/limit the possibility of the other. So where do we go from here? In the context of happiness (not lust, or passion for example) in relation to love and interpersonal relationships, everyone should read Plato's Symposium. My main takeaway from that was that happiness/love comes from being with someone who creates balance in your life i.e., harmony. For many men this will be operating in their masculine energy (not exclusively), whilst their partner operates in their feminine energy. Unfortunately, modern feminism seems to be pushing women into being more like men (whether they want to or not) and most guys aren't looking to partner up long-term with a man, albeit is a feminine shell. If you've read this far then thank you. For other viewers interested in this topic/the above I'd recommend Chris's discussion with Nina Power, released quite recently.
Women are creeped out when they are approached buy guys they are not interested in, like heterosexual men are creeped out being approached by homosexual men. This isn't as crazy as it sounds. Women have little to fear from someone they want, but the ones they do not want are the ones most likely to resort to violence (from an evolutionary perspective). An unavailable woman (married or not available for courtship) does not get offended by being approached by someone they find attractive, it may even be flattering. In those cases they give polite refusals or resort to subtle evasion. I think there might be a sense of disgust associated with with men they are not attracted to due to it being a signal for danger thousands of years ago. In fact it is still a danger in less developed countries.
You get it
Absolutely Whats creepy is in the eye of the beholder. Unlike what James think it’s just not for men to stop being creepy, as men do not have a creepy quality, they are doing things that’s giving the other person creepy feelings. You can control your actions, but not what other will feel about you.
It is the PERFECT analogy. Men are aggressive and entitled toward women in direct proportion as they are homophobic. They don't want to see themselves as the objects of their own behavior! If your "aim" is to "get something" out of a woman, especially if you feel entitled to do so, you can be sure you'll get nothing. If you treat someone as you want to be treated, with love and respect, different result.
A bit too much of a female sympathetic take on modern dating. The reality is that the dynamics have shifted hugely and pretty catastrophically. Women have been brainwashed by media to shoot for the stars too much and it’s not their fault. Hypergamy was always there and it just about worked out in the past but we now have Hyperhypergamy and it’s definitely not working. There are no winners. Forget male, female, everyone’s a loser. Even CHAD who may appear to come out on top destroys his ability to ever properly bond with someone of the opposite sex because he’ll always feel like he wants more. The same is true of all the women who got seduced by CHAD’S. They burn out their bonding abilities and will not be happy accepting anything less than the best. It would be reassuring to find something or someone to blame but in reality it is what it is and it’s just getting worse. The results will be extremely bad in around 20-30 years time.
You should speak to Caleb Jones or John Anthony. Men are figuring out new arrangements for dealing with modern women.
17:20 ok, I have heard this argument alot in modern dating discussions but history and psychology already gives us a healthy solution that would give both sexes a better chance at getting what they want. A neutral third party. Dating is a negotiation of value for value and having a matchmaker, priest, priestess, or therapist in the mix will help women feel safe and aid men in communicating their value to the women (which a majority of them seem to struggle with). Through most of human history either a religious or community leader/group was assigned this vital role. Even in female-lead societies. Sure, it was a position of trust frequently abused -we can learn from that, too and make the third party accountable and transparent. I think men need this help just as much as women need this protection. Men could get more clear feedback and an actionable plan if they aren't currently well suited to the women they're attracted to. Example: lots of men want to hit on fit, healthy women while they eat junk food and play video games. Like attracts like: the biker guy dates a tattoo artist, the doctor dates the woman who will support his career at hospital charity events, the surfer dates the beach volleyball girl. A lot of porn and media though has given the incels the idea that they should be able to keep their minimum job, minimum hygiene, minimum effort hobbies/skills, minimum social abilities... and win a maximum female. But women are generally less confrontational and often don't feel safe being honest about why a certain guy is not attractive to us. So men are slow to learn what they're doing wrong without honest feedback. A third party would speed up this process and a man (and woman) would both have a third party screening that feedback for biases and tracking patterns the individuals don't see on their own. Instead of just brushing off the unpleasant feedback we get as coming from a jerk or a crazy B, your matchmaker/therapist is pointing out how the negative perception the opposite sex is perceiving could be alleviated in a healthy way. And women would become less cold in dating because we'd have better verified the safety and compatibility of the guy we're getting to know. Maybe consent issues could be ironed out on paper; fewer misunderstandings that way. The Celts did this with handfasting. So many problems would be solved with a trustworthy third party. Even keeping a mediator into marriage instead of waiting till resentments have built up. And these don't just have to be available to the rich. We could choose to volunteer to watch out for each other! Or engage the lonely elderly in our society again ;) Community is the answer! It's what's always been the greatest human super-power to build, adapt and survive.
Hi, I liked your post. However, I do not think you really know what is going on. Granted i live in a different country but with fairly similar values and dating structures. "lots of men want to hit on fit, healthy women while they eat junk food and play video games. Like attracts like: the biker guy dates a tattoo artist, the doctor dates the woman who will support his career at hospital charity events, the surfer dates the beach volleyball girl." This is soooooooooo off. When the above average looking guy, with a good job that goes to the gym regularly is having problems dating the minimun wage cashier you have a problem. The thing is when a woman upload a picture and she gets thousands of likes and DMs is a race to the bottom.
It's an interesting idea, though I think completely unworkable without necessarily restricting women's and chads' freedoms to message each other on social media, but I don't think your assessment of low value guys going after "maximum" women is accurate. Decent looking successful men are dating fat women with awful personalities and red flags abandon because it's all they can get. Guys' standards have become a joke - it's like they have no self-respect. I even know a cool, chad-lite guy dating an overweight girl with frankly masculine personality traits, and she's not even satisfied with him. Guys are settling for anything they can get. I can only speak directly about my own experience, but I find getting attractive girls a lot of effort despite (admittedly in my own self-assessment) ticking a lot of the traditional boxes: I'm tall, good career/money, decent game, I go out a lot, I approach girls/exchanging contacts, I'm not overweight, good fashion, ambitious (building a company), live in a nice apartment with a good location, etc. No problem making friends, but my face is probably a 4/10 and I'm losing my hair, so when girls don't immediately ghost, even when it's going well or we sleep together etc, they just disappear for more attractive opportunities. In the past, it don't think it'd be an issue because my other qualities would still have value, but now career, personality etc. are almost worthless because attractive women can all access an endless series of nights with their dream men, forever hopeful one will fall for them. I don't mean to come across as complaining or bitter about the situation, I actually think it's more interesting this way, but I don't think it's an issue of men's standards.
Where a lot of incels come into place is that they they don't understand that women are emotionally Superior and you have to watch what they do over what they say therefore some of them get better when they become the nice stable provider in the bad boy that is doing nothing with his life down the street gets the guts. That's the part that you don't talk about. It is what it is I had to learn game but if more men understood the true power of Father Time the Incel community would wither.
@@colbalt95 "women are emotionally Superior" lol
@@thereisnosanctuary6184 I don't necessarily disagree, though I think it's just one possible solution to feeling desperate. Friendship with the opposite sex does improve communication and relationship skills through practice and feedback. Lots of men focus solely on their income and looks when it comes to dating... when in reality most women are more concerned with how you make them feel. Most women are more in touch with their emotions and more focused on their relationship skills/status than the average man is. And men tend to think just because some women use status as a shortcut to finding a valuable man that all women do this - they don't. Highly attractive and desirable women do this because they can and because they have too many choices otherwise. So yes - focusing on relationship and communication skills is a much more effective strategy than trying to buy a fancier car. But a possibly more effective solution is finding a physical hobby. Seriously. I helped work my family's sober living program for men and we found talk therapy was helpful but learning a physical skill like woodworking or welding bosted the self-esteem of the men far quicker. When you feel good about yourself it's so much easier to attract an equally healthy and happy woman into your life with or without lots of skills/experience with relationships.
1:07:00 dressing as a chocolate chip cookie, regardless of status, will always attract women
I'm a higher status man; good job, millionaire, have not dated purposely in 14 years. Have no interest. Not attracted at all.
Are you demisexual by any chance?
I think the Austrians call this stated preference vs revealed preference, the market reveals all! That's how we know a lot of modern day femism is wonky
Good God, get this man a microphone.
I tolerated this guest for 20 mins but when he doesnt even realise that 'creepy' is based on female perception linked to physical attractiveness it was all over. Keep with Buss, these uneducated blue-purple pill perspectives are a negative on your channel and are not helping men navigate the world of enormous social reach.
I don’t think “creepy” is tied to physical attractiveness. Creepy is several factors. It’s more about a skeevy feeling. Your gut is telling you something is off, a survival instinct that triggers your flight or fight response. If I’m getting a creepy vibe, I’m not asking myself if I find this guy attractive. I’m wondering if I’m in danger and need to get out of the situation quickly.
@@katrina2931 yep it’s about danger and someone exhibiting cues to advance when you aren’t interested.
@@fi-train8961 exactly. They’d do so much better if they recognized that. If they work to make you feel safe in their presence, it goes a long ways.
@@katrina2931 In 2022 creepiness is 100% tied to physical attractiveness. A short fat bald guy won’t get away with the exact same action/words as a 6’2 in shape model. Not only that, the short fat bald guy will be seen as creepy more often. I understand there is genuine creepiness which you are referring to, but the word is often thrown around to signal unattractive now
@@katrina2931 its called halo effect, you only feel creeped out by ugly guys like most women do. very few unique women on this earth dont run on their emotions so its hard to believe all of you
Once everyone's true thoughts were/are put to a platform we get to see what people really say, want, desire, pick, and don't want. In doing so a board of transparency has become public knowledge. Literally pure expression of selection for all of its black and white lens according to an individual. All of which is out of the subjects control and can be damning, almost black listing in said platform. It's a reality of discrimination without the user having to identify themselves in discriminating others. Men are being calculated in cold hard numbers and this is the results.
One thing that never seems to be discussed is that when people met through locale or friends they tended to be in the loop if that someone was seeing someone else, whereas online they have no idea. This unfortunately is again another way where through giving women more choice it hurts them as when the majority of them are chasing that small portion of men that they only really know online, don't know his friends, etc.... those men have means, motive and opportunity to cheat on them (or with them). Instead of being more free with such men women should be more cautious but they know themselves they are replaceable for these men (even if the pretend they don't) so they put out early in the hope that if they do what he wants he won't move on to the next one. This makes it a massive version prisoners' dilemma, if they don't put out but some other woman (so not just 2 prisoners involved here) will then they lose the man and they cannot trust the other women to not do so, so they all put out, all get the crap but not awful outcome and all feel like they were screwed over (because they were). I believe it was Burger King that threw Myspace into a tizzy way back by a meal promotion for every 1000 Myspace "friends" you dropped, exposing how meaningless all online relationships were, and still are.
@@JeffCaplan313 you can the most extreme being restricting her from all social media. If she sees you as high value enough she will oblige
When I see my two young son's around girls it's pretty awkward. I've got a lot of work ahead of me.
This material is absolutely splendid. I came across a book on this subject that was just as captivating. "The Art of Meaningful Relationships in the 21st Century" by Leo Flint
Interesting conversation. I’ve been going through most of your vids on this particular topic and this is by far the guest you’ve had with whom I have the most disagreements. He even went as far as to say we live in “a sort of rape culture” which I found an astonishing statement. Regardless great talk.
He's a journalist and a Marxist, of-course he says so. Chris should have pressed him on that how he could define it as such, when it’s the most hated and shameful crime in our culture.
As i see it 1950s dating for stable family creation is like democratic government in that is acknowledged to be dreadful but it appears to be better than all the alternatives.
Better only for men. That's why society changed
@@wyleecoyotee4252 better for women and men
@@Gothicc_senpai The past was never good for women. Now women can provide for themselves and not have to marry. That is the good thing about progress
@@Gothicc_senpai Depression and mental illness is rising for everyone, especially in teenagers and men as well. Depression in women is not due to being single. Can you provide cross sectional evidence for your claim? In the past it wasn't as easy or accessible as it is now, and women have higher incomes now. Enjoy your revenge fantasy
@@wyleecoyotee4252 "Now women can provide for themselves and not have to marry." Good, both men and women can focus on important things now. But don't come whining in your mid-30s because you're childless and unwanted, there will be no sympathy (pretty much all my female friends that keep partying and having a new partner every night are having severe problems coping with that fact) . Progress works like that and it's for the best, eventually. We just have to iron out the quirks.
How about having a conversation about dating beyond the age of 40? How does age and biology change dating? Does the hip to waist ratio still matter, is retirement perceived as 'unemployed' + how does it matter etc
Talk about men over 45 and all their health problems. How truly the average man has no SMV
Dating apps are cancer
I have three daughters and attractive all in their 20’s, they tell me young men do not approach them hardly ever. Young men today have been told not to approach women. There is tremendous power in learning the art of approaching women as a man in general. Good for the man and good for the women. This is what game is all about. If a guy is not in the top 10 or 20% and he has developed interpersonal skills and has basic understanding of social graces. He can do very well in society in general. And have a family. Not developing these skills are in masculine and shows weakness.
Problem is it’s very easy to approach a girl whose too young say under the age of 18 and then you kinda have to apologise and move on and hope the girl and even her father have the maturity to accept that lols!
@@ianarn maybe if more men who approached did so with the actual goal of getting to know and connect with the person then they’d be able to discern women from young girls more easily before getting into trouble. A lot of guys want to jump straight into sex as soon as they meet you (not realizing a majority of women have repressed sexual trauma, but that’s another issue all together.)
@@evaphillips2102 yes men can come on too strong and be far too persistent. But it is still masculine for him to desire women and approach women and be rejected by women and this is far better than if the man was just to reject himself before making any approaches and to not take any action at all on what he honestly desires. Men aren’t wrong for desiring sex from women and women aren’t wrong for rejecting men either.
as a young man i approach all the time, your daughters could be lying to you while they hook up with rich men on yachts i see it all the time too doofy fathers who have no idea where there girl is at 11pm at night. anyways yeah men are talking but we gave up, we are making money and planning to go overseas, at least most men irl who i know. women here have all the power, tell your daughters to give ugly looking men a chance if they want love otherwise they will need to buy a cat.
@@evaphillips2102 a lot of girls today want sex with model and rich men, tons of good guys waiting for love but they never get picked or rejected....
"All women have ONE story about blah blah blah..." Yeah, big fukkin whoop. Young guys are awkward and clumsy around girls. All men have DOZENS of stories abiut being led on, strung along, used for free dinner/drinks/etc, stood up, and treated like absolute dogshit by women. So spare me the sob story about your life on easy mode problems. Idgaf.
This is ”Just another brick in the wall” for the feminist project.
Don't waste time on stupid apps. Go live your life.
It is a market it's based off supply and demand it's not a monetary market but the dating economy is an accurate term
... Aristotle Onassis, who married Jackie Kennedy, said that the reason he became a shipping billionaire, was so that he would get laid enough.
And men today are not willing even to pay for a meal
@@clauaome25It's too much to expect, though.
53:25 My mate made a video recording with the woman giving her consent before they had sex, since they both were drunk and had just met.
Mint and voodoo 😂 are you from Leeds?
EVERYTHING in life is about money. No such thing as "love" or "commitment", only how people can be used for financial gains. Honestly, I've lost track of the number of male friends, co-workers, and former co-workers that have committed suicide. I know it's over 50.
Thats insane where do you live?
Unlike you he lives on planet Earth, you must be an E.T from another planet
I know a friend that has off himself. Relationship does so much damage for a man. If you are unable to get one it also damages you as well. Success is derived for your ability to procreate. But you wouldn’t want to procreate on inferior quality, so you are in endless madness.
To me it should be obvious that we should direct mental effort to seeing how we can legislate dating platforms and other social media to create more sexual equality among men, as well well as create social stigmas around women's excessive selectivity. It seems like an absolute cope to say men should simply level up, as women choose from what they are presented with, in a relative sense. If everyone levels up, too large a percentage of the male population is still left with no access to physical intimacy. In the past we may have controlled women's selectivity indirectly by controlling men's sexuality and forcing them into monogamy. Maybe the time has come for social norms that directly control women's selectivity. It's a shame that that is still something you're not allowed to say, even when speaking about these issues.
"Maybe the time has come for social norms that directly control women's selectivity." That sounds evil. You can't tell people who they can and cannot have relationships with. People will always prefer attractive people to unattractive people. That's necessary for evolution. Everyone has the right to pursue physical intimacy, but physical intimacy itself is not an entitlement.
@@i486DX66 Past social norms encouraged monogamy, which restricts men's preferred mating style. Future norms could simply encourage women to not reach for the stars, and instead focus on interpersonal compatibility with someone of their own desireability. I think it's perfectly appropriate to instill such social norms and shame deviation from them. I'm not saying women can't have preferences or choice in their partner, I'm merely saying that perhaps seeking shallow flings with men who are clearly at a much greater percentile of desireability should probably be socially discouraged, and any social media platform that promotes this should perhaps be regulated. This can be done without enforcing monogamy. The key things would be encouraging genuine connection, and discouraging, perhaps outright shaming the behavior of women who go after men who are clearly out of their league by miles.
@@yourbrain8700 "Future norms could simply encourage women to not reach for the stars, and instead focus on interpersonal compatibility with someone of their own desireability." There is no objective way to evaluate that desirability. You can rate a person or any object based on your own preferences, but it's wrong for someone to say Mary can't date Mike because she's not at the same level of overall attractiveness because that assessment is based on your preferences. Also, people, especially women will not try to pursue people that they know will turn them down because they don't want to be rejected.
@@i486DX66 Attractiveness is largely objective.
@Sez B you misunderstand the difference between an entitlement and a right. Two people may have the right to reproduce. But you cannot have the expectation that someone of similar "attractiveness" shall be forced or pressured to reproduce with you. That's extremely flawed. No one owes you anything.
For guys, success with women on a strictly "getting some" level is 100% about confidence, only how you ACQUIRE confidence has no easy answer. A corollary to confidence is a "don't give an EF" attitude, which, similarly, is no simple thing to just go out and acquire for one's self. I'll say this, though, you could do worse than to watch every movie ever made starring Robert Mitchum. That's certainly a start. SIDE NOTE: You can't lead with your income statement unless yours is very impressive, so dating apps may not be for you. Word to the wise.
Do the things that statistically work. Work out, skincare, diet, cold showers, all that garbage. Get a professional pic done. Get those that make you look real and action oriented. If you can dance, get a picture of your dancing at a club. If you can ski, get a pic of that. Have good teeth and where fitting clothes. The biggest piece of advice is to figure out what you want. If you want to be a specimen and perfect your body and to overcome your weak desires then that’s an actualization. If you can be clear to yourself about what you want then going out there won’t be a struggle. You won’t stutter. Inquire what you are and what you without outside influence truly desire.
The fact that you can pick between worst to bad for you should be a huge benefit, but most of the time the best doesn’t care and that makes you go for an “average happiness”, i.e. you just settle down just for the sake of it, so you won’t die alone pretty much. Online dating cannot be a reliable tool for finding someone special. They might look special, but it doesn’t feel this way.
at least you are having dates
Can someone explain the double standards mentioned in this video which praises sexual liberation and freedom to pursue high value men for women, but chastises men for choosing to select younger women even if they don’t eventually settle with any of them
This is tricky. I’m a 20-something and wouldn’t mind dating an older man, however I wouldn’t date an older man who only dates 20-something’s.
@@evaphillips2102 so I have dated younger women, the youngest was 19 last year but I’m currently dating a 32yo as I’m 34 now I just vive with girls without focusing much on their age tbh
@@atul9380 that sounds healthy, you kids enjoy yourselves
f it was explainable it wouldn’t be a double standard and it’s indeed a double standard. All benefits and price to women, all disadvantage and blame to men.
@19:40 no discussion about sexual in/equality is complete without including the topic of (modern) contraception, which allows the hookup culture to proliferate and significantly influences pregnancy and childbirth. contraception in the 21st century has evolved and improved for modern couples. some contraception can affect women's sex drive, others not. on the other hand, traditional cultures (and people) usually disdain contraception.
Great content
A lot of guys tried to commit to their high school/college sweetheart and got left in the dust. I like your videos Chris but you are really out of touch with the
Not a fan of black pill but diff between flirting and harrasment is on the looks and status of man
I wish the guest had a better phone. Hard to hear.
this portraits only women as victims as men as perverted and lazy, very simplistic mainstream view
They are trying to not get cancelled that’s why.
Exactly, spineless and false.
No masculinity is not bad ever. It's an individual. Is feminity bad. I honestly hate this equivalence bs.
James makes the mistake that women as a group are all Rational saints ...
Guys just chat to people it's easy
🔵
Every man dreams of the woman they could never have, Every woman dreams of the man they could have had.
Every man dreams of the woman they could never have. Every woman dreams of the man they will never keep.
How to not be creepy when asking a women out is to: Walk up to her in a non threatening way, (dont touch her or back her into a corner) and say hi I think you're really pretty would you want to go on a date sometime if so can i have you're number. And here the most important think if she said one of the following taking it as a no and dont pester her about regretting you and walk away from her: Sorry i have a boyfriend. No sorry Sorry you're not my type Sorry i only see you as a friend Sorry im not interested in a relationship Sorry im gay
I’m also curious about those uncommitted men.
You mean most men?
A man will commit to a quality woman of similar value to himself. Women are only dating up and dating up big time. Hence they don’t get the commitment. Common sense really
Let them share Chad and Tyrone.
I feel like this guest is a bit biased. Not to say he didn’t have valid points, but for the most part he seemed to be defending women’s sexual liberation and liberal views which we all know is responsible for the plight of young men now a days.
I think the plight of young men today is mostly caused by young men today. They seem childish to me, they don't know how to be men and they are uninterested in improving themselves. They also want to blame women instead of taking some responsibility.
@@haselbasil2488 why would they when any sense of being a man is labled as toxic and evil. So women by not shutting down their crazy feminist ideology have done this to themselves.
@@haselbasil2488Maybe tgey don't know how nor do have guidance for that.Good that women have guidance in form of raging Feminazis and government.
Just wait for Artificial Intelligence... this will change definition of date, love, sex, relationships, life...
We need fight club.
Did he just said feminine and masculine is a social construct?
He's a journalist and a Marxist, of-course he thinks so. Chris should have asked him what a woman is...🍆🍩
Women want: Attention, Security, Services, Sex, Status, but most of all Control. Monogamy is all about controlling someone with a greater libido with a social rules-based sex economy most commonly religion subsidized, (get the support wherever you can). Power in a sexually monogamous relationship belongs to the person with the weaker libido. Low libido as a superpower? These six 'wants' define Overt Narcissism in men.
What is it with the Jesus Saves T-shirt? Ironic or unironic?
I disagree that men are more excepting of women with high body counts, it’s more excepting in mainstream which is disingenuous at best
This guest wasn't worth having on. Chris knew more on every point and could actually decisively state it. Whereas James flubbed around, guzzling the koolaid and making sure everything he said was PC. James had one food point, his stance against porn.
Yeah, I agree with all that. Chris has a background as a club promoter and a keen interest in evolutionary psychology, so is pretty knowledgeable on the sexual marketplace whereas James seems like he's fairly new to this. It was a bit of a waste, and I certainly didn't learn anything new, but there's a decent amount of knowledge in the comment section.
@@charlieweaver6322 well of course there is, we are Chris' fan base :D
Chris could have interviewed himself instead.