The surprisingly persistent attempts to revive Paganism under the new Christian Roman Emperors.
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In this video, we shall explore how after the first Christian emperor Constantine started to favor Christianity, Paganism was systematically persecuted in draconic ways, enacted by the now Christian emperors of the Roman Empire. We shall see though, that there were many attempted revivals of Paganism, even as late as in 472 AD in the western Roman Empire under the likely crypto pagan emperor Anthemius. This is the tale of the slow death of Paganism, and how the flame of antiquity was extinguished by religious fanaticism.
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1. Procopius of Caesarea "De Bello Gothico"
2. Damascius, Epitome Photiana, 91
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The Crusaders, The Inquisitors, & the zealous of the Medieval & Dark Ages‥ before The Age of the Woke, we have The Dark Agers, history's very first known `Woke´
Hugo de paganis ???
Albino u miss me
We rarely see the decline of paganism from the view of pagans
i get the feeling the maker of this video might be one. at least on a rhetorical level, he isn't happy about the end of paganism.
The infidels workship demons. The view of the doomed are of no importance.
@@DynastyFBN End ha ha ha they just went underground In UK you would be surprised how many christian churches have Pagan symbols in them In UK there are pagan Moots gatherings every week O and the Heathen Hearths
Yes hindus are one of them
Paganism was a celebration of economy : the main fact about it was that the temples exerted the function of treasuries, banks, credit institutions. As feudalism took over, they no longer had any use except maybe as touristic attractions and museums.
“The death of society begins when it turns on itself” how very poignant for the times we live in.
it basically means liberals are destroying the USA
I was going to say something similar that this is an eerie and worrisome reminder of what is happening now. Of course people are not getting the death penalty for being Republican or anything near that, but the level of censorship in the media and universities compared to just 40 years ago seems disconcerting and indicative at least of the direction we are going.Just think of the number of people who claimed to be for Hillary but secretly wanted Trump to win. And this is coming from a far leftist.
@@chamboyette853 unfortunately 'the left' and 'liberal' are two very different things. I used to be a liberal too, freedom of speech and all that. good luck dealing with the zealots now though.
@@familyvids1 You can hate what many of the so called left have become (and in many ways it is disgusting) without relinquishing some of their ideals. Otherwise you are using adhominum logic which is both irrational and dangerous. I mean, because they often try to suppress speech, are more the party of hate, are more arrogant in general ... doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong about some things.
@@chamboyette853 I never said they are wrong. they are just incredibly intolerant of dissent.
The biggest problem that the late Roman Empire faced was that the military was involved in politics instead of defending the frontiers
Late?
Throughout* I do agree with you tho. Also if there was a peaceful way to kick out a bad emperor without force would have prevented a lot of.... say civil disagreements
christianity was the problem
This is an eerie and worrisome reminder of what is happening now. Society being more concerned about the thoughts of certain people rather than bettering the country. Of course people are not getting the death penalty for being Republican or anything near that, but the level of censorship in the media and universities compared to just 40 years ago seems disconcerting and indicative at least of the direction we are going.Just think of the number of people who claimed to be for Hillary but secretly wanted Trump to win. And this is coming from a far leftist.
@@familyvids1 that's one of the most ignorant opinions a person can have. The western roman empire fell because of all the corruption and decay of all roman institutions and due to the fact that the army had collected so much power in politics that they literally put and killed emperors as they liked. In fact, christianity or, more specifically, monoteism, was actually necessary for the survival of the empire. It was so extense that the government needed something that would identify people despite of all their cultural and racial differences. That's why other emperors as Aurelianus tried to convert the empire to monoteism with Sol Invictus to mantain the integrity of the empire.
It is worth mentioning that Tribonian, the main editor of Corpus Iuris Civilis was pagan, and while he wasnt too happy about it, Justinian never held it against him
Evidence? Can't find it on wikipedia.
@@Michael_the_Drunkard I heard it on Robin Pierson's podcast History of Byzantium, its hard to doubt the credibility of his research. I cant really point to academic sources because I am not a historian, but I think Procopius of Caesarea mentions this somewhere. Not sure about that though
@@Michael_the_Drunkard you use Wikipedia you must be slow
@@DevoteeofThunor If you are so fast why haven't you provided any sources even one month later lol
@@borisgeorgiev8535 what are you blabbering about
9:31 I'm Sundaneese Indonesian 🇮🇩🐯, we also had an ancestor that face the same crisis as "Julian the aphostate" named "Raga mulya Suryakencana". King (Prabhu) Suryakencana was the last openly and Officially polytheistic king (Prabhu) of the kingdom *"Sunda-Pajajaran"* , West java of Indonesia. And also, Suryakencana had a very simmilar vision as emperor Julian and some of his last descendents, *which is to revitalize* and to take back not just the kingdom of "Sunda" under his control, but also it's ancient "Sunda Buhun" religion and Hindu-Sunda heritage within the majority of the population that has been a part of life for our people for *909 YEARS!!* Unlike emperor Julian and the very last remaining crypto pagan hellenistic emperors that has a chance to gain power as a ruler and regain control over his roman empire and it's polytheistic rights for a while, Suryakencana sadly doesn't had that chance eversince he was born, because the capital city and the main kingdom of "Sunda" has been taken and slowly being sacked by the unity of the growing islamic force of "Sultanate of Banten" and "Cirebon". And also the reason is because his father named king (Prabhu) Nilakendra was a very, very corrupted king that's greedy, disrespectful to his people and a heavy womanizer that has abandoned the main kingdom of "Sunda" which is located in the city of "Pakuan Pajajaran" which today known as Bogor in the southeast asian country of Indonesia. So Suryakencana gain his title as the "Crownless king" because the crown, and the noble accessories of the king has been sent and heavily guarded to the very of the very last surviving state that would become an official the successor to the pre-abrahamic (Islamic) Sundaneese kingdon named "Sumedang Larang", etc. While "Julian the aphostate" died in a war, meanwhile "Ragamulya Surya Kencana" died when he's about to retreat to an isolated island that Sundaneese people at that time knew it as "Nusa Larang" which would become Christmas island of Australia today 🇦🇺. So he died in the middle of the journey because his ship couldn't handle the violent storm in the middle of the ocean that has reach the limits of his ship. The question is why he retreats to a place so isolated and so, so far away from the mainland instead of retreating to the smaller state of "Sumedang Larang" with the rest of the hoard??? The answer lies on a historical script of "Banten" in which one of it's line sounds like this in english: "Our warrior 'Panembahan Senopati' (Yusuf) was planning, making tactics, and making a hard effort to forcely convert the king (Prabhu) to Islam but he rejects it entirely (upaya besar Meng-Khitankan sang Prabu)." ~An authentic historical script of "Banten" written down in the late 16th century~ Because of these simmilarities, everytime I've finished doing a traditional meditation of my culture which is called "Menekung", I would beg for "Taksu" (a cultural way for begging cultural strenght and spirit to the elders or ancestors) to emperor Julian (and his Julianus family tree strong Hellenic spirit) and King Suryakencana because both share a very simmilar struggle and ambitions in the end.... 🙏🙏🙏🍃🍃🏛️🕉️
very interesting, thanks for sharing
And just like you guys in Rome, the VERY FALL of the civilization of my ancestors in "Sunda-Pajajaran" and the death of king (Prabhu) Suryakencana isn't the very end of the Sundaneese hindus, and the ancestral religion "Sunda Buhun" from making a huge contribution to the civilization. Infact, the very last surviving powerful figures and a few hundred warriors had succesfully moved and integrated into it's smaller successor state of "Sumedang Larang". So in an underrated small Southeast asian kingdom of "Sumedang Larang" in Indonesia around the early 1600's, there lived a very trully last king of Java (Leaving only Bali which is still common ofc) that had a given title "Prabu/Prabhu" named "Geusan Ulun" eventhough he was raised and born as a muslim. "Geusan Ulun" was declared as an official successor of the previous kings of ancient Sunda BUT ALSO the very last of the last "Prabhu/Prabu" of the entire history of Sundaneese civilization. judging by this, this is a very clear indication that this smaller state of "Sumedang Larang" was a very tolerant small kingdom in nature having a successor Muslim king with the given title as "Prabu/prabhu" instead of "Sultan" and also some of it's nobilities that came from many different religious backgrounds as well as the only and last official successor of it's pre-abrahamic (islamic) kingdom at this time. Unlike in Rome where revenges and ressurection attempts towards the old ancestral beliefs and cultures are commited in a massive wars and a political hierachy & dominance by the rulling class, here in the sunda region of Indonesia, the revenge and the very last attempt to trully revitalize the old beliefs and tradition of "Sunda-Pajajaran" was done by taking chance and tactics in order to destroy it's betrayer "Sultanates of Cirebon and Banten" kingdom. So like how is it?? It's caused by the complicated love drama of king (Prabhu) "Geusan Ulun" and his wife who cheated on him a queen named " Harisbaya" and some role that involves the "sultanate of Cirebon". So the very last remaining "Sunda Buhun" religion and hindu warriors of "Sunda-Pajajaran" used this chance and the king's Romantic dramas and his personal love and hate relationship towards the islamic Sultanates of west Java in order to destroy, corrupt, and eventually see it's Islamic betrayers fall into their demise for what they've done to their glorious ancestors that has glorify the ancestral homeland in peace and harmony for ALMOST A THOUSAND YEARS (600-1579 A.D). Unlike you guys in southern europe and mediterranean where Hellenism (ancestral religion and tradition) meet it's actuall demise and near extinction by conflict after conflicts with the abrahamic religion (Christianity) and plagues afterwards, here in Sunda west Java region of Indonesia the hindus and the "Sunda Buhun" are just lost and unable to compete with the very rapid islamization (monotheism) of this region only a few years after the passing of King (Prabhu) Geusan and the smaller state of "Sumedang Larang" has been conquered by another more powerful islamic sultanate of Mataram, thank God no extensive crusades and the killings towards the very last of the very last minority of "Sunda Buhun" mainly known as "Sunda WIwitan/Jati Sunda here. Thank God also in modern day Indonesia, people like them still exist, the Indonesian goverment supports and claimed them as one of the remaining traditional tribes and their tradition continues on..... *"Rahayu, Rahayu.....Jati Pradnya Wisesa 🙏🙏🏛️🇮🇩🇮🇹🇬🇷"*
@@jauntyjaun no probs 👍👍
@@bry8883 Whenever there is decay of righteousness, O Bharata, And there is exaltation of unrighteousness, then I Myself come forth ; For the protection of the good, for the destruction of evil-doers, For the sake of firmly establishing righteousness, I am born from age to age. Bhagavad Gita Chapter 4, Verse 7-8 Don't worry my friend , dharma will rise again
@@bry8883 are you an Indonesian (Sundanese) Pagan?
It must been ominous to have lived in Rome with all their temples closed and no people around them, the silent only interrupted by the wings of the pigeons and the distance sound of the city, every believer should knew dark times and terrible catastrophes were to come by such unholy sight as the temples abandoned.
That seems as a superstitious thing to belive
@@cazwalt9013 And how do you believe the pagans of that era would feel to see their temples close and an imperial edict ban them from entry while the christians go full power grab and begin persecuting pagans? Didn't the people of that age see the world through superstition interpretations.
When the people turned their backs on the gods, they doomed themselves.
@@cazwalt9013 well, consider like going back to your ancestral home , which was once filled with laughter of your siblings, parents, now silent only interrupted by wings of pigeons and distance sound of city. How will you feel? Same felt by those pagans on seeing their abandoned temples as old gods have same value in their life as your parents in yours. For you that feeling might be superstitious, for them it was like death. To understand someone's feeling, you need to see things from their point of view.
Is it any wonder that Rome fell soon after christanity rose in Rome
To put it in Modern perspective, imagine secular yet Christian West turning to Wahabi Islam (specifically wahabi Islam because other more tolerant schools of Islam aren't that radical when you consider how radical Christianity was when compared to Greco-Roman religion) and death penalty on practicing Christianity.
@علي ياسر umm, you are mistaken. Before Constantine came to power along with Christianity, only one generation of Emperors (Diocletian and others) were there in Dominate. Before that, prostration in front of Emperor wasn't a norm before them, the empire was still Principate back then and emperors tried to pretend that they are one among the senators (first among the equal). Also prostration point makes little sense as when Rome was 100% Pagan during the Republic, when nothing like prostration existed and absolute rule was unthinkable. And during the Byzantine Empire, Emperor was absolute in almost every regard and empire was also Christian.
@علي ياسر ? So? It was common in christiandom.
@علي ياسر Ohh yeah, like that's what happens in every society. If army have to fight for it's commander, facing death and still the degenerate commander doesn't pays then what else they suppose to do?
Pagans killed Christians too.
Don't jinx it
Apparently, there was a community of pagans who lived in the mountains of Olympia who were converted during the reign of Basileos I.
I think you mean the Maniots of the mani peninsula
@@dewd9327 yes
@@decimusausoniusmagnus5719 You mean under Constantine 7?
Nope they fought conversion read what's written about them
Paganism survived for a surprisingly long time in the remote corners of Europe. Look at Lithuania!
Chad Pagans visiting a new city: Cool! Looks like their patron gods are diverse and beautifully sculpted. I hear in the countryside they even have a sacred statue of Marduk whose hand must be held by new rulers! What a wild place, I'm glad I could see it! Virgin Christians: I've seen thousands of t's.
💀
Julian the apostate by Gore Vidal is a GREAT read. Fiction of course but a thoroughly researched one and full of insight into late antiquity. I’ve read it over and over again for years.
Thank you for this recommendation.
A lot more detail about this novel would be useful, spoiler free of course.
Google.@@gameover9390
@@gameover9390 It is written in the form of an autobiography of Julian's life from early childhood to death, with frequent letters and notes inserted between chapters between two of Julian's friends: Libanius and Priscus. It is a fantastic book, and I cannot recommend it enough.
✨Let’s hear it for the Old Gods ✨
They are in hell 💁🏻♂️ most people go to hell so it is easy to hear their sides 😂
Nahhhhh they're not real
Let's not.
Hail the gods, Hail the Ancestors.
@@schtoppwhiteflight3137 hail!
Thanks for this extraordinary commentary on the slow passing of Roman paganism and the rise of Christianity. Your attention to detail and little-known facts is splendid.
Very true, a society that turns against its old values and traditions is a doomed society.
Also, mass migration is not healthy either. "Diversity is our strength", the guise of tolerance, it's all bullshit. It will be the death of European civilization
That's more stupid than to say that a person is doomed when he eventually stops pooping his pants and learns to walk.
@@MrCmon113 not always just depends on the values and traditions
There are more examples like the decline of Zoroastrianism in Persia, Buddhism in Afghanistan (though it was more diverse with a mix of Vedic Hinduism, Zoroastrianism and Hellenism), Hindu India (even though we still are the majority faith but we suff-ered from 800 years of Abra-hamic inva-sions and today India is secular and most Hindus are non-observant)
@@MrCmon113 you seem unwise. You're like a leaf blown far from the foot of the trees aka your ancestors, and here you are... Unable to comprehend a simple comment.
If becoming Christian caused Rome to lose their “martial vigor”, how come the Christian west spent the next near 1300 years in a constant state of warfare? That argument has never made any sense. Especially as the Vandals were Christian and so were the Visigoths…
Exactly same as Charlemagne and his “ holy crusades “ against the pagans
The answer is in the video. The eastern empire wiped out all the pagan roman legions in the west and forever after, the western empire could not defend itself. What christians did after the fall of the WRE doesnt count as roman martial vigor.
"The death of a society begins when it starts turning on itself" That really makes you think...
"Diversity is our strength"
@@frauleinhohenzollern8442 Accept the Jew from a land you've never heard of as your one and only God. Oh, and hate the Jews too. No, there is no contradiction here!
@@frauleinhohenzollern8442 Nah Diver-sity is not a strength. The Persians wel-comed them they lost their civilization, we Indians wel-comed them we almost lost it too. Diver-sity is only a strength when all comm-unities agree that there's a common goal which is tole-rance and co-existence.
Majorian, your content and your videos have come a long way and continue to get better and better. I really enjoy watching your stuff and hope you continue to make content about the glorious Romans for a very long time. Thank you for all the work you put in!
Fun fact: in 2006 it became legal again in Greece to practice the old faith again if one chooses. Before that pagans were persecuted by the Greek Orthodox church. There are many groups now in Greece that have revitalized the old religion. However it's more a form of ancestor worship and revitalization of old traditions and remembrance and respect for the ancient religion. I had the pleasure of attending an ancient Greek baptism this year where Posidon was the chosen protector of the child. It was really beautiful.
Beautiful.
I believe Sparta was pagan deep into the middle ages. A turn for the worst really. We should really continue persecuting those pagans.
There is a statue made of broken jagged glass pieces in Athens called "the Runner". It is very obviously Hermes. The helmet is there.
@@crhu319 is that the one across from the Hilton hotel?
At my cousins wedding we hung 12 slaves as a sacrifice to Wotan.
You can never kill Ideas with such deep roots. The Roman west was largely pagan to the end but even in the more Christian East emperors as late as Anastasius I Dicorus, Justinian I had to implement draconian measures against paganism. They were even still pockets of venerators of the Old Gods in places like the mani peninsula near Sparta which was pagan until the 9th century. The last temple was converted to a church there, was in the 11th century. With Christianity on a cultural decline, the is a rise in paganism across Europe.
Yes it will be back once again.
I romanticize that thought a lot, but realistically i expect the world to become more and more atheistic.
@@scorpionfiresome3834 The afterlife never rises before the thoughtless child, or the ignorant, who are deluded by the glamour of wealth. "This world alone is, there is no other!" - Thinking so, he falls under sway again... and again. *- Katha Upanishad 2.6*
This just isn’t correct. By Justinian’s time Christianity was the majority religion with several variants in the west
@@rockstar450 To the end I mean the fall of the west. I was talking about Eastern Rome when I mentioned Justinian in reference to his actions like closing down the Neoplatonic Academy.
_A society dies when it turns onto itself._ Rome did so quite often at least since the 130s BCE: Civil war. What does all the military vigor help if it's used against oneself?
Yeah just ignores that inconvenient fact while fetishizing paganism. Lol
If i am not wrong, you kind of have an admiration of the old Roman religion, my late Mother being from Italy i was always fascinated, by the ancients cultures and religions, so i delved in to ancient Roman religion, i have read some of the translated prayers to their Gods, and i must say they sound like spells, and some kind of sound like a 4 year old, asking Santa Claus for presents with sacrifice, oh by the way, did i tell you that Italians to this day and my dear Mom loved this every time around Christmas,she would speak fondly of la Befana, which to them was some kind of Witch that would give you presents, but you know this is a remnant of the Old Pagan Roman religion, ( i am agnostic btw)
Fun fact: in 2006 it became legal again in Greece to practice the old faith again if one chooses. Before that pagans were persecuted by the Greek Orthodox church. There are many groups now in Greece that have revitalized the old religion. However it's more a form of ancestor worship and revitalization of old traditions and remembrance and respect for the ancient religion. I had the pleasure of attending an ancient Greek baptism this year where Posidon was the chosen protector of the child. It was really beautiful.
As an omnist, I know & understand the importance of accepting the faiths, ways, & beliefs of all others right after respecting one own first‥ although, from my perspective, as much as that's so, still, I find self-evident that atheism is nothing but a self-defeating concept & it's an extremely strong opinion that it's highly recommended that just like any other mainstream Aberhamic sect donations of today, that it's should be considered as best to be avoided at all cost, therefore from that point of view, I find that one will be at the least better off being an agnostic than an atheist.
The prayer you described in the same prayers christians have. They dont call spell, they call it prayer, and the old pagans also dont called their prayer spell, but considered christians the magicians. Also is not that this channel revered pagan religion, it revered the roman empire, and the empire was built in paganism. If the empire was built in other religion he would have said the same here. Christianity is not compatible with the spirit of the old romans.
Last pagans of Rome: emeperor Flavius Anthemius Procopius (467-472 AD) and general Marcellinus from Dalmatia,assassinated in 468 AD in Sicily by barbarian general Ricimer.
The Western Roman Empire was more or less rebuilt when Ricimer killed these last heroes. Ricimer should be seen as the one last straw in the West.
Anthemius was Christian
Fun fact: in 2006 it became legal again in Greece to practice the old faith again if one chooses. Before that pagans were persecuted by the Greek Orthodox church. There are many groups now in Greece that have revitalized the old religion. However it's more a form of ancestor worship and revitalization of old traditions and remembrance and respect for the ancient religion. I had the pleasure of attending an ancient Greek baptism this year where Posidon was the chosen protector of the child. It was really beautiful.
@@funkyfiss Even in my country,Romania,there's an increasing movement towards reviving the old dacian religion. Especially amongst youth.
@@laur1969 good for you guys! I hope they didn't revive everything about the old Dacian religion maybe excluding the human sacrifice every 4 years. But as a form of ancestor worship and herbology and such... its wonderful I think.
Im so happy I found this channel. Amazing work
As usual you got the best topics in your videos. Love your content. Please keep it up amicus!
18:14 First of all, St. Augustine ruled as bishop in Hippo Regia, not in Carthage. Second, the rioters in Carthage would seem (after a very quick check on wikipedia) to have been Donatists, his enemies.
All the same christian BS.
@@xiuhcoatl4830 So, if your tribe didn't participate in human sacrifice, and you mentioned it was Azteks who did that, would I reply "all the same pre-Comumbian BS"?
@@hglundahl Oh ouch, you burned him good! But we know the logic of those who devalue human life and sacrifice them in abortion clinics and pagan alters. They're savages.
@@daguroswaldson257 At least on certain issues.
@@hglundahl one thing has nothing to do with another. Tribes are completely different than differences in religion. All christian proclaim the same faith, yeat they can not agree in the most basic thing and are always discussing with another one about what is the "truth". This is why paganism is superior, it dont care about what you believe, religion is tied to their people, to the tribe, not to what is the truth. Donatists and the "orthodoxy" that Augistine represented where not different tribes of people, they were all affected by the same christian mentality, but where fanatics that only care about discussing what is the truth and what not. You can not group pre columbian tribes as the same, and not any other tribe in the world, but you can group every christian because they all proclaim the same revelation from Christ, and wants everyone to think like them.
What a wonderful and informative channel, covering a part of history which is indeed somewhat neglected outside of scholarship. Many thanks.
A friend of mine was raised in a pagan family that claimed to have kept the old ways alive and carried them from Europe to the Pennsylvania Dutch country. He says that his experience was not uncommon. Crypto paganism continues to this day in an unbroken chain.
This is interesting! Any chance you could elaborate further?
Wow, never heard of this in contemporary America
He said that their beliefs were frightening to him and he had to do spells and rituals to protect his bed at night from evil spirits etc. Drawing circles around the bed.
@@bglrj oh, I thought it would’ve been a more “cool” story. But, to each their own I suppose. Something the Romans didn’t understand, clearly 😂
No, he didn't think it was cool. Very primitive almost tribal superstitions.
Just wanted to say superb content!
7:02 Constantius II was not a Catholic Christian. He was an Arian. He was as persecuting of St. Athanasius as of Pagans.
Incredibly good video!! Zosimus, a worshipper of the Graeco-Roman religion and author in the Eastern Roman Empire during the turn of the 6th Century, squarely attributes the Decline and Fall of the Western Empire to Christianity and the ceasing of the worship of the Old Gods. I have to agree with you and him to a great extent, that it did play a major part. During the 4th Century, the patricians of Rome were still predominantly followers of the Old State Religion (Graeco-Roman) of Numa Pompilius. It was only during the 5th Century that there began to be a shift so that the patricians turned to Christianity.
The east was far more Christian than the west and it survived for a 1000 years more than the western empire and republic combined. And decline of the empire started a century before costantin was even born
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl The Republic and Empire had many major crisis, this one was fatal because of the new religion and the actions of the emperors that enacted horrible policies in it’s behalf. More troops alive and less divisiveness through decree = crisis over.
@@rubenguirado4766 Fatal? You do realize that the west was far less Christian than the long lived east?
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl You do realize your reading comprehension is horrible? Also, it seems you didn't watch the video's perfect explanation of the fall.
@@rubenguirado4766 yeah I am calling the video wrong. And you didn't explain anything you were incredibly vague
Love your content so much!
I love how you added scenes from the movie Agora. Simply amazing film.
Thanks for the Julian book recommendation. Has to be one of the most interesting emperors!
Thx for referencing Gore Vidal’s book!! Introduced me to iamblichus and the Neoplatonists and does a great job giving a balanced view of Julian
This is so good. You did some wide searching to get all these relevant paintings.
This is covered in the second half of The history of the city of Rome in the Middle Ages by Gregorovius. Book 1. What a great source! Your videos are priceless Grazie !
Great video! Given the increasing numbers of abandoned churches in the Western World it seems Christianity is slowly going down the same path as Paganism did in the Late Roman Empire without the proscriptive push of the governments.
@Gandalf Stormcrow 😂
the faster it dies out the better for everyone
Not totally true regarding the lack of persecution. Christians (as well as anyone else with the wrong opinions or characteristics) here in Britain are liable to be discriminated against, sacked from their jobs or even arrested by the state for expressing the wrong opinions. e.g. the Christian nurse offering to pray for a patient getting sacked for violating the new religion of "equality and diversity" or the Christian bakers arrested for refusing to make a pro gay cake etc.
@@Jeyeyeyey So you're working for our governments, our only true new god?
@@Jeyeyeyey Not really. I see it as being replaced by much more repressive and primitive religion.
I Blame the chicken named “Roma” for the fall of the old gods
Thanks for the video. I have enjoyed it a lot. 30 minutes passed like 30 seconds.
Much love and support to the Roman Pagan Warriors.
*Rahayu..🙏🙏🇮🇩🇮🇩*
They were rightfully defeated by the God, bc these cosmic superheroes you call "gods" never existed
@@Michael_the_Drunkard 🤡🤡🤡
@@Michael_the_Drunkard tell me your a clown without telling me your a clown
@@clay119 Useless pagan
Paganism is still alive in the modern day religions of Shinto and Hinduism, some of the largest religions in the world.
All non-christian religions can be called pagan.
Christianity number one
@@notoriousnono1328 yea in mass genocide death cult
A splendid presentation.
Great video that points out something that I only became aware of recently: Christianity meant a new wave of intolerance on Earth to anyone that strayed from the "one correct path". It's the 1st commandment
This is a very misguided view. All individuals have a path based on their own morality. Religion can be what sets the framework, but in modern culture it’s upbringing and conventional custom. Humans will create groups and divisions in order to procure resources or secure dominance. Religion is one way of doing this but once it suit they’ll find something else. I’m very critical of Catholics but the church was key in keeping the late empire together and is arguably what kept some order after the Roman culture disintegrated.
@@rockstar450 a lot of good people died horribly on both sides of the equation. Case in point the great professor Hypatia on the pagan side and the Apostles on the Christian side. Our own tainted human nature is the culprit.
@@catholiccrusader5328 I agree entirely. The crusades are a great example as well of faith vs selfish ambition. Raymond was a holy man who put his faith and duty first, refusing the crown of Jeruselum and demanding oaths to God be fulfilled. Bohemond's conduct more reflects a power hungry heathen, willing to sacrifice others, broke oaths to God, quit the Crusade after he'd gotten a good enough deal and spent most of his life warring with Christians. This contrast clearly shows us a man who's motivations had little to do with religion. Religion merely justified his motives.
Abrahamic Religion always marries with political tension , That’s why basically every Abrahamic religion is a political ideology in a guise of religion
And, now again there is the resurgence of paganism.
Rightfully so, AVE IVPPITER
I love the video on the Pagan view of the late Roman Empire. It's such a shame the early Christians were so brutal to the pagans akin to the later crusaders. However I still think people may fall into the trap of just believing if only Rome just retained its traditional values of ancient Greco Roman antiquity it wouldn't have fallen. It's been said from a Abrahamic faith perspective the rise of organized salvation religions filled in a cultural and spiritual void people across the empire craved that traditional paganism couldn't provide anymore. Rome was going to fall regardless of religion due to so many internal structural factors. People tend to forget the Empire wasn't only made up of classical Greek and Romans. From my own perspective Rome struggled to adapt to a every changing world and the Imperial system is not suited for effective governance. I personally believe a return to Republicanism and devolution of power to provinces with renewed local democratic traditions might have prolong the empire by giving it a new identity or set up an effective structure for better organized successor states to rise like our world's Ostrogothic kingdom or Byzantine Empire
1. The "Byzantine" Empire is not a thing. It's the Eastern Roman Empire, that existed before the fall of the West, so it's not a successor state. Roman history continues with this empire! 2. For all the atrocities, pagans had committed against Christians for almost 3 centuries, they absolutely had it coming. Again, people don't give their life and kill non-believers on a whim. They were all pagans before, but the Christians of the 4th century had been convinced enough to commit such actions by intellectual argumentation against paganism, which was provided by the writings of the apostles and the church fathers, leading to their conversion. 3. The only atrocity that crusaders committed was the 4th crusade. The crusades overall were a reaction to muslim encroachment on Christian Europe. The fall of Asia Minor to the Turks and the impossibility of pilgrimages to Jerusalem necessitated a Christian reaction. The levant was Christian before it became Islamic.
Crusaders weren’t cruel, they did nothing wrong. Where’d you learn history?
Excellent coverage!
I really enjoyed the video, even though it was a bit biased, I would like to see videos that are purely historically accurate and unbiased.
I love this channel. Please continue with more of this beautiful videos. Well done! I love the emotion you put in youre voice, i feel the same way man! ( English is not my native language, so excuse me for grammatical errors)
The FACT that the capital HAD to be moved to Mediolanum (Milan) in 286 AD from Rome in order to pass necessary reforms (think of draining the swamp) really shows how bad things were. It wouldn’t (western) last another 200 years after this. In fact the capital was moved again in 402 AD this time to Ravenna.
Only after the Battle of Pollentia caused by Alaric and the Goths, frightening Emperor Honorius.
Rome was irrelevant for centuries. Once the last mint was closed it fell off the map and was a glorified tourist destination, Beverly Hills equivalent.
@@rockstar450 ahahaha, you won the award for most ignorant comment of the year. Poor guy
@@Rick-dt9mv it was a joke bro was, but on a serious note Rome was increasingly less relevant 2nd Century onward… you’re the one who’s perhaps exposed themselves? Lol
Rome was getting uninhabitable because of malaria : the swamp was physical, the Pomptine marshes.
Your perspectives are fascinating. Fantastic work.
This is fantastic! Did you do a video on the Battle of Frigidus? I can't locate it. I| would love to see it. If you have it, what is it called? Thank you!
Historical fiction is usually pretty awful, but you are right that Gore Vidal's "Julian" is a marvelous work wiritten with great insight into its subject. Also uniquely above the rest is Marguerite Youcenar's "Memoirs of Hadrian".
I've had that book for 5 years, but still haven't gotten round to reading it. Gore Vidal the man and his politics digusted me, so I think my subconscious is blocking me in some way from reading it, lol.
@Thad tuiol his politics are what attracted me to him. A true American rebel. Thats probably what attracted him to Julian.
All fiction tends to turn into fact(s).
Thanks a lot for this brilliant content, superb!
This really is a very interesing channel.
This channel truly gives the most bang for your buck!
In fact so-called "paganism" was not completely stopped on northern & eastern Europe - EVER, and even officially it took over 1000 years. The temples & worship of Isis in Egypt was not squashed until after 800 AD and in fact, never died out. The gods still choose whom they want, and no religion, no matter how intolerant and evil in it's suppression of human rights, can stop them.
It died.
We could pretty safely say that the tradition was broken, even in the North. However Icelanders saved much of the northern tradition, enough so that it could be revived in last hundred years with some internal consistency and sources rich enough in myths, a bit less in vague general practice, and very poor on exact religion views and rites.
@@mmiYTB The myths tell you almost nothing about what the religion is about. Imagine trying to figure out what Christians do from the story of Noah, the book of Job and Jesus casting out Legion.
Imagine if the Christians had the same vigor in defending the Empire's borders as they did in destroying Rome's cultural and religious heritage.
Thank you for your presentation.
VERY good video! 👍
I wrote a screenplay about Julian as a part of my history capstone. Did you know more survives from the pen of Julian than any other emperor of rome, despite his tragically short tenure in the purple?
The Roman religion (yes, separately from the Greek religion since they were different) was (in this case just like the Greek religion) an Urban centered religion. Meaning: each independent city state had worshiped a specific casual god or a few casual gods, and not all of the gods. For example, the people of Athens worship the goddess Athena the virgin, not Zeus or Eris or Apollo. The worship of Athena was identified with the city of Athens, and there were rituals and ceremonies unique just to Athens and not to any other Polis. Rome for example, at least in it's beginning had a special place for the gods Mars and Jupiter. This system was working perfectly as the different city states were independent and their population remained mainly within its borders for generations. The system also continued to work after the city states were absorbed by larger entities, including the Roman empire. But eventually after centuries under the Empire's rule, even though many city states could keep their political assemblies and temples intact, the effect of migration both from outside into the city and the opposite, could be seen. The city state religion which was dependent on the permanent population of the polis was weakened- mainly due to the fact that, it did not have an organized system of conversion! Meaning, throughout the centuries the cities who were the centers of the Greek and Roman religions became a mix of individual religions. Those religious complex mixtures made it hard to observe the old traditions, ceremonies and rituals and gave way to more universal religions and cults. That's why we see in Rome the rise of the worship of Isis or the adoption of the worship of Mithras. That's why we read in the very beginning of the metamorphosis that the world was created by one unknown god. This city state local religion could not hold against the power of universal religion such as a Christianity.
Yes, it is universal. Do you know the term in Greek for Universal?
καθολική
"universal" seems to be a too big word for such nefarious, destructive and stupid religion, as any monotheistic one has demonstrated to be. PRAISE THE OLD GODS !
@@tantrismx by Universal I attempt to say that it applies to everyone, everywhere, unlike many (not all) ancient local pagan religions. Let's try to keep the discussion in an academic frame.
@@tantrismx you are welcome to have as many "gods" as you prefer. The fact remains that there can only be one supreme and eternal Godhead, "eternal" being the one only qualifier separating the men from the boys so-to-speak; anything other than that is a contradiction in thought and terms.
Yeeeeees pleaaase we NEEEED MORE VIDEOS ABOUT JULIAN !!! gratias amicus meus!
There was planned a game MMO based on ancient Rome, but sadly the project has foundered. It would have been interesting to role play being a Roman citizen around say Claudius' time. I find the idea of religious tolerance the ancient world, a fascinating one, have we inherited this in the UN Declaration of Human Rights, for example? Or rediscover it, I should say. ly
Any reason why it was foundered?
@@Gabriel333_ I really hope the Game will get finished some day.
@@grailgnosticism2342 Yeah same it sounds hella fun.
I'm not quite into the cliché of the medieval period as dark, though I think that Christianity itself had gone dark indeed - from a persecuted church into a persecutrix church. A church which itself practiced torture rather than opposing it. After all, Christanity was quite healthy for the average emperor to come since it became less of a dangerous job in the "Byzantine" empire. Instead of outright murdering one's predecessor, a new emperor sent him to a monastery.
Fascinating, informative and wonderful video!
great channel!
What movie are the clips from?
A very nice video. Well done!
Thanks a lot for your nice words John :) We are really glad that you enjoyed this video. And thanks so much for becoming a member of Maiorianus! It is highly appreciated 🤗
Careful frater meus. These videos are turning my wife into a frothing pagan. Oh wait: she already was one. She already heartily disliked Constantine, but now every time he pops up she hisses at the screen. I have to admit a bit of responsibility in that regard as I've always been a Constantine basher myself. These videos are excellent. I'm slowly working my way through them all.
Constantine is unarguably a top 5 emperor. Augustus, Diocletian, Justinian and Basil II are few that could push him down
Christianity could have never insipired this men to fight pagans militarily, if it had never dismantled paganism or more accurately polytheism on an intellectual level. So please, tell us how a polytheistic faith makes more sense than Christianity?
@@Michael_the_Drunkard because the idea of a universal god doesn't make any sense
That's the kind of cringe I expect from larpers, good job.
Great video thx
Great video.
Correction @6:30 actually in 330AD the capital of the Roman Empire was Mediolanum (Milan) and NOT Rome, so Constantine I moved to Constantinople it was from Milan.
Most probably in Nicomedia like Diocletian.
Yes, but Rome was still the chief city of the Empire where most of the bureaucrats and institutional memory resided.
It seems that Christianity was imposed thanks that it was a religion of the upper class? It is good to live in a time where I can follow the old traditions and not forced to be Christian, I have nothing against religions per se, but is obnoxious that precisely the monotheistic religions are so intolerant.
>It seems that Christianity was imposed thanks that it was a religion of the upper class? Seems to me to be more a combo of religion of the Military class, urban class and lower classes. As the video maker said, several temples were destroyed by Mobs, that's not how upper classes do they stuff.
The pendulum of history continues to move back and forth...
What?! Paganism ended? When? - when?! I don’t care: I’m still performing the sacrifices at Delphi!
Those poor animals, instead of being put to good use, they are being sacrifced to cosmic superheroes.
Michael III - Please, have some respect: do not speak of Christians in that way.
@@dorianphilotheates3769 It is you Filth that sacrifices His creation for demons, don't try to spin it unto us.
@Carlos Gustavo Maldonado eso diselo a los indues, a ver que opinan.
IMO, the acts of four Emperors laid the nails in the coffin of the Empire. 1. Septimus Severus: Although a competent emperor in his own right, he started many of the trends that led to Rome's fall. He was the first to demonstrate that all you needed to make a bid for the throne was to beat everyone in your path. He also pampered the army with huge pay increases and this started the trend of emperors and usurpers engaging in competitive bribery of the army. He also greatly reduced the value of the denarii and the roman currency as a whole to pay for his ''gifts'' to the army. Thus, he set off the disastrous inflationary trend that would plague the empire to its last days. 2. Diocletian: Implemented policies that effectively enserfed most of the population and placed crushing tax obligations on them. Peasants were barred from moving and more or less became prisoners in their plot of land. His edicts on price fixation further ruined the economy and accelerated the progress towards bartering. The Roman army also became less formidable due to his reforms. The heavier armor of the lorica segmantata was abandoned for the lighter chainmail of the Comitatenses. The limitanei borders guards proved useless for the most part. The main roman army was too diluted and the comitatenses were not as formidable as their predecessors. He increased the size of the army at the cost of quality. This would prove deleterious in the long run and Roman armies would win fewer and fewer decisive victories from there on. 3. Constantine I: He was an excellent emperor in his own right but I cannot bring myself to call him ''great''. He ruined Rome's ancient traditions and inflicted an incurable religious strife by his promotion of Christianity. Not only was the late empire crippled by Christian-Pagan divisions but Christians themselves engaged in endless factionalism and civil strife in the form of their many, many schism like the Arian-Nicean split and the monophysite heresy. Contrary to popular imagination, Monotheistic Christianity made the empire more divided than it had been under Polytheistic paganism. He also began the trend of maintaining huge ''bodyguard'' armies that travelled with him. This placed a crippling burden on the treasury and created a trend were Emperors increasingly held back precious palatani troops from precious battles. And he also initiated heavy purges that destroyed the old Roman patrician pagan class and filled it with his Christian cronies. 4. Theodosius the ''Great'' : The least deserving man of being called ''the great''. He destroyed the temple of Jupiter and many other priceless pagan artifacts. Removed the altar of victory that Augustus had placed at the founding of the empire. Banned paganism and accelerated the Arian-Nicean clash with his intolerance. Crippled the Western empire's forces at the battle of the frigidus river. So great he was that he allowed his Gothic mercenaries to slaughter unarmed Roman civilians in Constantinopole. He also barred people from changing professions, making the population as good as slaves and hastening the turn towards feudalism where the people would become subjects to large landowners for protection from Roman authorities. However, his worst contribution was placing his two retarded sons Honorius and Arcadius on the Western and Eastern thrones. Honorius is arguably the worst empire in history and by the time he died, half the territory of the Western imperium had been lost and Rome itself had been sacked.
Vespasian won the throne through force, before Severus. But his reign was beneficent to the Empire. R
Pfff, come on, we all know these guys were the reincarnation of Augustus himself compared to the Angeloi. Those dumb, corrupt fools are the sole dynasty responsible for ending the empire. The incompetence and corruption on display by the Angelos Dynasty is unrivaled by anyone in Roman history.
Great review. Thanks.
@@marvelfannumber1 Honorius: Hold my soy.
@@scythianrabbit3977 If you think Honorius is worse than any of the Angeloi, then you don't know about the Angeloi. That is all.
As a catholic watching this gives me great insight and a great will to revert to the old gods I to admire Julian he had a tremendous mind for his times! @Maiorianus is there still a way to revert a practice this ancient religion
There are still groups researching and worshipping the ancient gods. Our Nova Roma has a good handbook for beginners
@@vulpes7079 nice ill check it out
12:50 - or rather a minute or two before ... you mentioned you were going to make a video about Flavius Julianus?
I read Vidal's, "Julian" what seems like a lifetime ago. I remember it as a very good fictionalized biography of the kind that Vidal wrote so well.
The horrible persecutions by the pagans upon my fellow Christians was no reason for my beloved Church to enact revenge on pagan people once Christianity become dominant. A true Christian never seeks revenge on enemies. JESUS CHRIST said "Love your enemies not hate them. Do good to those who persecute you." I think we Christians are getting more than a bit of the same revenge we used on others in the past. Case in point the rapid decline of Christianity today from within and from without. Loving tolerance is the answer .
No. Christianity ✝️ must be dominant on the earth.
How do you call yourself Catholic crusader? Your (assuming) ancestors stopped the literal peak of human ritual sacrifice. Instituted the word of God around the world, etc... You don't have to hate your enemies. And also, God eventually repays those who have taken the mercy of his people for granted. He even calls out some to do it themselves.
That just proves the fraud that christianity truly is.
@@blackbeard1988 And sent the world to an age of darkness, bloodshed and ignorance.
@@xiuhcoatl4830 Because the peak of human ritual sacrifice wasn't ignorance 😂 weak af.
The word pagan is offensive to the ancient Greeks whose spirit was revived by Renaissance (rebirth) and enlightenment and Europe emerged from the Middle Ages.
Thanks for the videos and also for recommending "Julian" by Gore Vidal--I'd read a couple of his books (including the very fine "Creation", also set in Antiquity) but missed that one. Recently I finished "The Gold Coffin" by Ferenc Mora, which takes place during the reign of Diocletian. I really enjoyed it but dont feel competent to judge its historicity. It was certainly an absorbing read with obvious literary merit. Mora is highly adept at dramatizing the religious turmoil of the period as reflected in all strata of Roman society.
What BBC movie was used as clips in this video?
Coercing people in belief is never good. No matter how true it is. Especially in regards to Christian faith. Who requires people who are genuine in their beliefs. "They will worship me in spirit and in truth"
That's ironically what the Pagans did to Christians before 312. But it's okay, if they do it.
We have never coerced anyone into the Truth. We only forbade them from practicing lies and myths, so they don't become Filth and of Satan.
@@ChrisGamerr upon threat of violence
@@ChrisGamerr tens of thousands of years of history predate Christianity and you think your religion is correct
@@edmundprice5276 What tens of thousands of years? The world is 6000~ years old. From even before the world was created He existed, and after creation; together with His covenant and His people. I have no religion; I am not pagan Filth or deceived by Satan. I have the Truth through His divine love. You would too if you learned humility since you too are created in His image. We only threaten evil with His light. Do not think yourself wise to say that all violence is evil. Violence to protect loved ones is not violence, it is self-defense. As He has ordained.
Even though you are a historian of the Roman Empire I beg to differ on your approach of this video of pagan revival in Rome.You never mentioned when Christians were burned alive and their burning bodies were used to light the streets of Rome.You flat out glossed over how Christians were killed in the Colossium.You made it appear that it was worshipping pagan gods in Rome in some way added to the glory of Rome.So whose side was the pagan gods on for all the civil wars in Rome?I can make the same argument that it was worshippping pagan gods in Rome that lead to the downfall of Rome in part.You never mentioned the fact that a Roman legion was beheaded for not worshipping pagan gods and not denying Christ.Do you know about the legion that was beheaded?I forgot the date and legion that was beheaded.If this didn't happen then I stand corrected but am 100% positive I read it somewhere.One of the ten commandments is"thou shall not worship false gods before me" from the Old Testament.Funny you didn't mention how St.Peter the first apostle was crucified upside down.Or maybe you didn't know about.If you didn't know about it now you do.
Wow. Great content and thanks for a refreshing review on the material instead of a regurgitation of the status quo.
"Christianity is bad bc" is literally the most status quo you can get
Christians moved from emptying pagan temples by preaching the gospel and arguing out God's message of loving forgiveness and hope....to using force and street riots against pagans. Says a lot about the apostasy Paul warned about
It’s only the Abrahamic religions that solely despise polytheistic worship. Though Judaism clearly views polytheism in a negative light the Jews weren’t as keen as their Christian/Muslim counterparts in converting the masses. Every society whether from Africa to the Americas were polytheist. The influential Sumerians were polytheist yet were one of the very first civilizations to ever emerge. The Christians thrived in a civilization that was created by polytheists.
Since when is thriving considered being killed en masse because the Truth was seen as a threat to their worldly matters and possessions? The Jews did care, as long as it wasn't in their land (or in some cases even within their own land) they were forced to be fine with it, either by circumstance or as punishment by YHWH.
@@ChrisGamerr There's no truth in abrahamism, only violence and bloodshed.
@@xiuhcoatl4830 Violence and bloodshed for what? Both aren't evil by themselves so what are you even trying to say? Finish the sentence. If you're some kind of pacifist I'm going to have a field day with you I can tell you that much.
@@ChrisGamerr for a bunch of lies that only cause more bloodshed and violence. Obviously you haven't experienced war if you think such things are desirable. But this is internet, and kids like you who think warfare is like in games are common. I never said I was pacifist, not wanting unnecessary violence doesn't mean I'm a treehugger, far from that.
@@xiuhcoatl4830 They're infinitely more peaceful than the people, who worshiped the ugly thing in your profile picture.
For those of you who can undestand italian I would recomand Barbero's speech about how Rome was percieved during Constantine reign. Super interesting. Consider that the relationship between Costantine and Christianity is still very debated today because obviusly his image was considered for century the second most important person to ever exist after Jesus because he linked human civilization (Roman Empire) to the true message of God. Today tendency, as I understood, is to think that Christians and pagans coexisted more easily that what we imagined before. A couple of interesting facts: -Eusebio says that Costantinopoli was built purified by pagan temples, but many authors that came after mention various pagan temples in the city -the arch of Costantine has zero rappresentation of the Christians signs on the shields etc. but has rappresentation of pagan victory rituals. Consider that some visual storytelling of arches were made using parts of older arches changing the faces of the older emperor and putting the new one on. We still dont know if it was to "save money and work" or to pay omage and compare new Victorious emperors to the most important ones of the past (like Trajan Hadrian etc)
Constantine was clearly a closet Christian well before the Bridge, some scholars suggest he grew up as a closet practice. He clearly wanted it to succeed and that meant making it work in the Roman institutions, and the result is the fascinating hybrids we see.
@@rockstar450 very much doubt he was a closet Christian.
And note how inferior the workmanship is of the work from Constantine's era to that of the monuments of the past they used for the rest of the arch.
Could you share the speech please?
western civilization not "human" civilization
Which movie/show is the scene @14:21 ?
Agora
Very good👍
"Agora" is really just a horror movie if you think about it
yeah its always those "evil" christians
It is an anti-christian propaganda movie. Hypatia was killed by the parabolani, a specific Christian sect that followed the teachings of Patriarch Cyril (who himself had many Christian opponents) for allegedly souring relations between Alexandria's prefect Orestes and Cyril. Most of her Hypatia's students were Christians and they got along with her (1 even hit on her). Alexandria was not only somewhat Christian but street fights between rival ethnic and religious groups were a common occurence there. The movie falsely portrays Xtians as bloodthirsty maniacs who just get crazy and murder pagans for fun. The whole context and the pepertrators were misrepresented. "Muh library of Alexandria" had long been overshadowed by the libraries of Pergamum and Constantinople, where several scrolls had been relocated.
Except the real grisly ending is changed to save the audience's stomachs.
Yea just like christianity a nightmare for the ages
@@Michael_the_Drunkard facts. I still like it because its so rare to get a good Later Roman Empire Movie.
Excellent presentation!
Maiorianus: VERY INTERESTING!
09:30 are you serious here, your favorite? He unsucesfully tried to recreate the Ist century in the IVth century, 280 years too late for his own time.Completely out of touch maybe he travelled back in time from the past? Many Romans were celebrating his death, moreover it is likely that he was stabbed in the back by his own legionnaire. With his bizarre mix of old and new religions Rome would have fallen much faster, from the inside. In short he was hated by many of his contemporaries. Maybe you would like Early Imperial period more? Just asking.
That new religion being opposed to the others, and claiming it's the only true religion, due to its dogma. But, dogma does not work.
If the Pagan emperors were more tolerant than Christians in your view, why did they demand a sacrifice with the threat of execution?
To appease THEIR gods !! So, the pagans were not intolerant of anything else (generally speaking of course), they just wanted victims from the others, and so on, to appease their own gods. Whereas, those Christians were just intolerant of anything else!
@@Michael_the_Drunkard Pagan emperors WERE tolerant to christianity and it's BS. Offering a sacrifice was such an easy thing to do and would, and it DID spared the lives of christians. If they did it as they went after the druids, we wouldn't have that pest around.
In Serbia we say "Paganin" also we have a word "pogan" which means dirty/bad/grose, i thought before that pagan/paganin is actually a newer form of pogan/poganin
From what I remember, the word is attested as far back as the 900s, when the Neretljani, a Serbian or Serb-adjacent tribe that, though they were part of the first Serbian grand principality/tribal confederation had not converted to Christianity along with the other principalities, were referred to as Pogani. The Greek sources translate this as Pagani but they say that in the Slavic language this means uncouth or something like that. This is why you’ll find the Narentine lands (the mouth of the Neretva and a number of Adriatic islands) referred to as Pagania.
I really like the way you narrate in this clip. Calm voice, not sensationalist, just emphasizing at some points but not throughout the whole clip. I actually appreciate as well that, although you narrate in English, you pronounce Latin names in a way closer to the original pronunciation. (.. and don't butcher them as it's standard in Britain and the US 😄)
Decent enough video, but this one I think has some major issues compared to your other videos, especially the first half. I applaud that your aim here is to go against the prevailing narratives in regards to Late Antique Paganism, but you end up not really differing from them much anyway. For instance, when talking about Julian, you talk about him reopening temples. But you don't convey that Julian also wanted to create a 'new' paganism that was more centralized like Christianity. This was something which would quickly alienate him among many pagans, who didn't want to change their faith to this new elitist version Julian was trying to impose. It's when we get to Eugenius and the Battle of Frigidus that the video really starts to go south though. First of all, there is no evidence to suggest that Eugenius was "infact a secret pagan", so it's quite troublesome that you present this as a likely fact. The sources are conflicted on the matter (even the Christian ones, which would have no reason to claim this fallen pagan usurper was a Christian). The only evidence we have of Eugenius restoring temple subsidies is from a single, very vague letter by Ambrose, which mentioned that the request to restore them came *from* the pagans and that Eugenius rejected the suggestion twice before relenting. This could just as easily suggest that Eugenius was merely restoring the tolerance policy of Valentinian, not just that he was some kind of Julian-like neo-pagan himself. The idea that the Battle of Frigidus was some kind of clash between faiths is also a thoroughly outdated interpretation. Sure, the Christian sources portray it that way quite zealously, but the pagan writers are completely silent on the religious meaning of the battle, which is very suspicious. The Christian writers would obviously have an interest in portraying the fallen usurper as a tyrannical heathen. To add further skepticism to this interpretation, when John Chrysostom delivered his homily to Theodosius after his death, noting all his greatest achievements, he doesn't even mention anything about paganism, despite referring to Theodosius' piety during the battle. Even if you want to present the traditional narrative (despite the fact that you say you don't want to do so in the video), you should have mentioned at the very least that the religious nature of the battle is *heavily* disputed, if not outright rejected by more modern scholarship, as there is very little evidence to support it. Also, your claim at 19:26 is very strange. You claim that if a society loses its old beliefs, its own "martial vigor"(?), the it falls...but the empire would still exist for 1,000 years longer, despite fully abandoning paganism. The eastern half of the empire, which performed much better than the west in the 5th century was also, like you say, the *more* Christian half. Very strange segment. After this the video gets better, as you start covering more obscure and less documented events where there is less room for error. Though I do wish you had mentioned Justinian's closure of the last Egyptian temples in the 6th Century and Basil I's conversion of the last Greek pagans in the 9th Century.
Hello Marvelfannumer1, and thank your for the very detailed comment. I really appreciate constructive criticism, something which is very rare nowadays on KZhead. Therefore I am taking the time to answer, and as you know, as a KZhead creator it is impossible to answer all comments, because then I would only be answering comments and would not have the time to make too many new videos. Anyhow you raise some good points. Regarding Julian, he had some flaws and certainly the way he wanted to revive paganism was not optimal. Also his over the top clinging to pagan sacrifices in Antioch was also a bit weird. However he still deserves to be admired, just for the mere fact that he wanted to restore paganism. Christianity had proven to be extremely intolerant and he rightly understood that Rome had to revert to the old ways, if the empire wanted to survive. It is not a coincidence that Rome was sacked for the first time in 800 years, just 16 years after the final triumph of Christianity. In fact, i will talk in more detail about it in future videos. We have some real evidence that Christianity weakened the recruitment base of new conscripts in the west, something which Majorian tried to solve in one of his laws, the Novella Maioriani. He forbade Christian women to take up religious vows, because this had led to a severe drop in births. So less roman recruits, thus they had to rely more on barbarian Foederati. Then the monastic career became a real alternative to a military career, further draining the western empire of new recruits. The east was never more successful in any way than the west. They just were more lucky with richer provinces and better geography. The barbarians did sack and destroy many cities of the eastern empire, but Constantinople was just an excellent fortress which they never could pass. Valens for example was the cause for the defeat at Adrianople, and Basiliscus was the cause for the disaster at cape Bon in 468AD. Also, it was Theodosius' inept sons, especially Honorius, that would irrevocably weaken the western empire. Had a capable emperor been in place of Honorius at that time, the WRE might have survived in some form. Only because Theodosius had to place his incapable son on the throne, and he came from the east. There is much more evidence for the religious character of the battle of Frigidus. From the letters of Symmachus there is actually a lot of evidence that Eugenius was a pseudo christian, and if he really was one, then not a strong one. Symmachus was a pagan senator and Eugenius a rhetorician, a good friend of him. And we should not forget that Eugenius did restore the altar of victory to the curia, a strong sign for the tolerance of paganism. As for the opening of the temples, it is quite well documented in the letters of Symmachus and the dyptych of Symmachus quite nicely shows a strong pagan revival in art and Style in the 390s in Rome. Regarding the "martial vigor". Yes, the eastern empire survived 1000 years longer, but i will argue in future videos hopefully more clearly, that as soon as the west had vanished, the fate of the east was also sealed. The west could not survive without the east, and the east not without the west. It was basically a slow 1000 year death, except for two strong periods under Justinian and Basil II. Since the east was more christianized than the west, there was cultural continuity, as compared to the west, where paganism was much more deeply rooted. Therefore, the east, having been founded by Constantine as a Christian empire based around his Nova Roma, had a strong cultural identity, something which the west lacked, and something which the west lost when Christianity destroyed paganism. While the east would thrive under Christianity, the west would vane under it. We can see this quite clearly with all the attempted pagan revivals as late as 472 in the west by Anthemius. That is what I meant with, if a society loses its old beliefs, it falls. Christianity was young, weak and frail in the west, while much stronger in the east. Regarding the last pagans of Olympia, that is really interesting, and indeed, would have been good to mention, but i forgot about it, lol. I will certainly find the place for it in another video :) So, these are my views and I hope it can be understood because I am typing from a smartphone. Anyways, nice having an interesting discussion here. Truly seldom these days on KZhead.
@@Maiorianus_Sebastian Well hey, the fact that you not only took the time to read my comment, but also to reply to it is quite commendable. Most history youtubers just tend to ignore criticism as long as they can continue making more money. I may have made clear in my initial comment that I don't really care much for Julian. I think he was a pretty bad Emperor that's been way too overhyped in modern times, mostly by people trying to push an agenda. But I won't give my own subjective opinion too much weight. There's plenty of arguments to be made, and my point about him was more of just a minor nitpick. Though with Eugenius I think you're again maybe slanting a bit too much on the Christian sources. It should be again stressed that the sources are very unclear on his exact religious affiliation, and like I mentioned, he rejected several pleas from pagans. The restoration of the altar of victory btw was just another one of those said petitions. Eugenius did not just unilaterally do it on his own, he was asked for permission by pagan officials, so this isn't really evidence for him being a pagan. It could just as well be evidence he was restoring Valentinian's religious policy. You also didn't really address the whole Frigidus problem. Christian sources do try to frame it as a religious battle, but no pagan sources do, and there's even christian sources that don't frame it as such. I think you should have at least mentioned that it's disputed, you could be a bit more vary of that in future videos :) Your point about the east is where I think we'll just have to agree to disagree or something, because the idea of the east being in "decline" for 1,000 years (which would be...literally the longest "decline" in history) has no basis. For one, the east did not "need" the west. They were doing just fine under Anastasius who ushered in an economic boom. The west was more of a surplus to the east, not something they really needed. Hence why Justinian started his reconquests when the treasury was full and the economy was in great shape. Even after the Arab Conquests (which the east managed to survive through, and even outlive the Arab Caliphate itself, hardly a "decline" if you ask me), the east was doing quite well in its smaller and more compact form. Saying Justinian and Basil II were the only 'strong periods' is doing an injustice to the great Emperors: Leo III, Constantine V, Basil I, Romanos I, Nikephoros Phokas, John Tzimiskes, Alexios II, John II, Manuel I etc. In fact, I would even argue many of those I just mentioned are better than Basil II or Justinian. Even as late as the 1170's, the eastern empire was the richest state in the entire Mediterranean, only the Fatimid Caliphate could compete with it, and it could easily flex its muscles against the likes of France, Hungary and the Turks. The eastern empire was anything but 1000 years of decline. If anything, it was one of the most successful periods of Roman history. Despite facing even more powerful enemies than in the 5th Century, and despite being in a lesser state, they managed to keep together and even have several golden ages where they reconquered much land. The late Western Empire was never able to achieve that. If Alexios I had been in charge of the west, he'd have ended up like Majorian, and Alexios had even less to work with than Majorian did, yet he somehow succeeded. That alone I think pretty much debunks the idea that Christianity made the Romans lose their "martial vigor". You would not be able to tell me John Tzimiskes or Nikephoros Phokas lacked martial vigor with a straight face.
Yeah it’s not credible to describe the history of the ERE post the fall of the WRE as a thousand year decline. The ERE confronted, and defeated or outlived far more formidable foes than the WRE ever did. It maintained sociopolitical cohesion in the face of the entire world around it being transformed. It had numerous eras of flourishing economics and culture as well as innumerable martial victories and periods of expansion. Hell even when the descendants of the peoples who had destroyed the WRE managed to organise themselves into significant imperial state they chose to associate themselves in multiple ways with the ERE by the founding of the HRE. It’s possible to date the decline of the ERE to around the time of Manzikert or more likely to the Fourth Crusade but to dismiss the entirety of Eastern Roman history as a decline really isn’t credible at all. In fact it smacks a little of wild hubris.
@@marvelfannumber1 I'm glad people are "hyping" Julian. He's is an extremely fascinating character, and admirable in his attempt to save millennia old cultures threatened by a new, hostile one. Instead of his reign as sole emperor being cut short at 18 months, he might have brought 30-40 years of much needed peace and stability, not to mention a religious restoration, however modified. He was a decent emperor, by and large a decent general, and one of the precious few 4th century rulers that were highly educated. As for "pushing an agenda", spare me. As if he isn't a demonised figure already for being "pagan" while lesser creatures become saints for acts of iconoclasm and idiot violence.
@@blingabiaino197 I completely disagree that Julian was a good Emperor, the one good thing he did was his campaign in Gaul, although I'm not sure how much that counts since he did that prior to becoming Emperor. His reign overall though was a failure. His religious reforms failed and were not popular to either the pagans or Christians, and when you're an Emperor that pleases no one, you're not doing a good job. Then there was the disastrous war with Persia, which he pretty much started for no reason, and which cost the empire crucial forts that it would *never* regain. Julian died due to his own recklessness and left Jovian to pick up the pieces, with the worst starting position of any Roman Emperor. Julian's nearly two-year reign would have been mediocre if not for the Persian War, but with the Persian war it was a complete disaster. I would not call him one of the worst Emperors, but he was very below-average in my opinion. Also, almost everyone who knows about Julian these days talk about him positively, and overhype him to a ridiculous extent. If you actually look at his real reign and stop speculating about "what might have been", you realize that he was not a great emperor, and not even the best in the mid-4th Century.