Identity politics and cancel culture w/Norm Finkelstein | The Chris Hedges Report
The contemporary culture war over the role of racism, patriarchy, and other questions of oppression and identity in American society and history has given rise to a political outlook some critics describe as "woke culture" or "identity politics." But can the new identity politics succeed in achieving a vision of a more just world without class politics, or a radical redistributive agenda? Norm Finkelstein joins The Chris Hedges Report to discuss his new book, I'll Burn That Bridge When I Get to It! Heretical Thoughts on Identity Politics, Cancel Culture, and Academic Freedom.
Studio Production: David Hebden, Adam Coley, Cameron Granadino
Post-Production: Adam Coley
Opening sequence created by: Cameron Granadino
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Dr Finkelstein is the rarest of intellectuals: brave and uncorrupt.
He intellectually tackles to the point of making others uncomfortable, but there's nothing wrong with that. Can understand that because of what kind of man, he holds his Jewishness, to the highest possible standards and aspirations.
There's the man, and separately, his Jewishness, and his high intellect and conscience guides his life. Very Christlike. Let's put it this way, not Jewish anymore, after death. I hope can see that.
@@chadabercrombie6860 It's ironic for someone who seems incapable of communicating even in such short form to make a claim about intellectual credibility.
@@anaibarangan4908 Yet tells others they can't prioritize their identities in the same way. Very weird
Hiding behind meaningless terms like “woke culture” is not bravery.
Every time I hear REAL anti-Jewish racism, I think of Norman Finkelstein, and I do what i can to counter it. I have supported Palestinians all my adult life. I salute all you have done sir.
This is the best segment of all-time and that's a pretty high bar. It's very revealing that even the great Frederick Douglass was a sellout at the end of his life. As a black man, I applaud Chris Hedges and Norm Finkelstein for being men who are brave enough to tackle these subjects without the fear of being falsely labeled right wing bigots. You all know that those of us who aren't completely ignorant or brainwashed see your good faith critiques for what they are. We make a complete distinction between your voices and those who use "woke" as a pejorative to deny that institutional racism exists in any form. The bad faith weaponization of race is going to have to be called out by both black and white progressives without fears of mischaracterization. Because reaching a critical mass of people with this message is our only hope in disarming the weaponization of identity as a cloak for domestic and global destruction.
In my microcosm workplace, years ago, I learned that people accepted their position as inevitable. But there were certain actions supported by the "ruling class" of the work place that at least would move you into.better positions, whether a better position, or treatment like entitlements. But another realization was workers hated by the rulers guided one to also reject them. Well, inevitability of authoritarian societies start at work. Those are the people we respect and mimic.
Well stated and to the point 👉
Frediceric Douglass was half white and 2 out of 3 of his wife's were White
Well said!
@@dopaminey9946I hear what you are saying and I know of what you speak. My observation is that the 'rulers', or in-crowd as I like to call them, rely on everyone being afraid of becoming their next victim. No matter how much effort you put into trying to convince the fearful that they wouldn't become victims if we all stood together, they will always aspire to becoming part of the in-crowd and never stand with anyone being victimised. They come up with all manner of labels to undermine those who oppose them. Most cruelly, they label their strengths misdemeanors.
Exactly how one must "interview" Dr. Finkelstein - wind him up, sit back, and let him talk. Bravo Mr. Hedges! I could listen to Norman for hours and hours.
Well then do it! I certainly do.
Norm is fierce in his work. He's a hero
😂
I was hoping Finkelstein would appear on this program. Great interview.
A superior mind who deserves being read and listened to.
Norman Finkelstein is unparalleled.
One of the very few full on, no holds barred, truth teller in the world.
Everything I've ever heard him say, I agree with him.
Chris should set up a series of interviews with Finkelstein. We especially need this man's insights at this time. He's been martyred, not as badly as Assange, for sure, but he was robbed of his rightful position at DePaul university.
they made sure he could get no other academic position worldwide after that!
This has been a fantastically salubrious discussion for me. I have been on the outs with all of my colleagues in higher education for resisting their focus on gender, race, and identity. I am also a gay man who has been out and active since 1979. I first wrestled at the emergence of the postmodern takeover of political thought when Q was added to LGBT. Q means queer. We fought against being named queer for decades, but now those who think that LGBT is too confining, have added that and an endless number of letters to being in a sexual minority. In the process, they destroyed the gay movement and created a postmodern movement of gender fluidity, and non-binary identification. There are no laws against being non-binary, or being queer, or the rest of the alphabet soup. Laws against sexual minorities are based on what we do physically. But that was not good enough for the postmodernists who added the so-called progressive chevron to the very beautiful rainbow flag designed by my dear friend Gilbert Baker. The rainbow flag was a Universalist image that embodied all of the basic elements of being human. None of them were designed to be exclusive, or based on identitarian politics. But here we are. They ruined Gilbert‘s flag, and trashed progressive politics down the toilet. It is not surprising that those who benefit the most from this turn are tenured professors and universities writing books on gender fluidity and getting attention for novel takes common to us all. Their angle is language. And that is the point. Once they debunked, or got rid of materialist theories of social change, the academics would have us embrace identity and culture as starting points for radical change. It has done the exact opposite. It has engendered and reactionary movement that is attacking the most vulnerable people in society, while the tenured professors at UC Berkeley do not have to pay the price. I am also Latino. But when the postmodernists decided that Latinx is a better word, I realized I no longer belong in their club. Even though Latinx is an affront and even insulting to about 67% of Latinos in the United States, a professional managerial class that runs nonprofits and the liberal media and publications continue to embrace it nonetheless. Even the New Yorker Loves the word. Identity politics sucks.
Sister brother, thank you for saying so. I have witnessed this steady takeover, basically since the very day (30 years ago) I learned about these distinctions. I was a college student then, majoring in arts and humanities. It’s been one heck of a hell ride that eventually forced me to breakout of charades…. and into class consciousness.
I hate how they changed the rainbow flag. But as far as the addition of the word “queer” is no one knows what the word refers to, however I will point out in the 1960’s many like Allen Ginsberg and Paul Goodman used the word queer to publicly describe themselves. In Paul Goodman’s case it was because he was bisexual and in Ginsberg case because he felt outside the mainstream gay movement. But both were anti-war and very left political activists. The real question is in the 60’s the most visible out and vocal LGBT men were Ginsberg, Baldwin, Vidal, Goodman and others who were very left social democrats, in the 1990’s you get Andrew Sullivan a conservative Republican who turns Democrat. And as far as I can tell gay in popular culture since 1970 featured more Andy Warhol types or pop singers than political radicals. So the same trend of “inclusion” was applied as long as it doesn’t question US imperialism and the class system, then it’s OK.
And these are issues Norman Finkelstein or anyone claiming to be a serious activist, should preoccupy themselves with and blather on about hour after hour after hour-whether there's a Q at the end of LGBTQ? That's more important to Norman than..oh, I don't know..climate change? The migrant crisis? Ukraine?
Catherine Liu's book called "Against The Professional Managerial Class" (as you mention above) is a small book from which Liu once promised a full and expanded version on the topic first introduced by Barbara and John Ehrenriech in the 70's.
I learned more in your comment than any I've ever read. Nice! And the replies. I think the gender ideology stuff isn't left. It started on the left. But the folks these days I believe, have been guilted, coerced, feared and propagandized in it. They seem to be very organized at the top. It's a globalist movement. Not a left movement. Been hijacked by globalists. And yes, it's all to control language and speech. Changing definitions. Etc. Etc. We are literally being corralled into submitting. Look at them going after the game show host. And his lawyers too. 🤯 No regular American could go against that machine.
Norman is so well read and so well versed that it's mind boggling. Another half hour would have been great. Thank you Chris Hedges for doing this interview.
I never tire or am I ever bored with Dr. Finkelstein.❤
Professor Finkelstein... May you live FOREVER!!!
Thanks Chris. Norman takes his time answering questions, we need more than 30 mins when you interview him 😂 Keep up the great work
Yes there could easily be a Part II with Finkelstein on this or any topic.
@@loninappleton And a Part III, a Part IV.... I'll be here for all of it. :)
"I'll Burn That😉😉 Bridge When I Get to It." Hilarious!
Identity politics is nothing without a deep a class analysis , radical redistribution of wealth & power across the board with working class empowerment is the major goal
We can destroy identity politics with one concept: "Wouldn't it help more of [insert group] if they could actually afford to pay for housing?" Given that the vast majority of each group is struggling in the working class.
Very well said
For very interesting new view, + enlarged working class idea as under lying all identities. See Nancy Fraser's 3 part (Walter) Benjamin Lectures Class, Race + Gender, ???, Class Beyond Class.
Pure identities are cultural, social psychological, even physical that easily become chauvinist + supremacist, beyond seeking EQUAL rights, seeking dominance over others, including oppressors,,.but 2 wrongs do, not make 1 right.
@@tymanung6382 100%
Dr. DuBois could have immigrated to the Soviet Union. Instead, he immigrated to and died in Ghana. There, he did gravitate to and promote socialism and was a dear friend of socialist, pan-Africanist, and Ghanian President Kwame Nkrumah.
Yes, that choice says everything about his values and loyalties. Anyone who chooses their "identity" over material and class-based concerns is not of the left. They're of themselves. And he wasn't a "Dr". He was not an MD, he was a "social scientist". And his insistence on being called a Doctor says everything about his character.
Well said!
Dr. Finkelstein seemed more relaxed than a year or two ago. I find him more articulate and easier to follow now. Impressed by him.
Thank you, Chris Hedges, for all that you do.
Omg, my two favorites. What a perfect start to the weekend.
Thank you Chris for having Norm Finkelstein. Always incisive, methodical and conscientious. He is truly one of the few intellectual scholars with unwavering integrity. Thank you both!
Norman embodies and exudes open minded integrity and even handed intellectual prowess, with a desire to approach the truth in all it's awkward complexity, like few others have ever come close to. I could listen to him for hours.
Meeting with a most remarkable man (among the usual, legendary cancelled intellectuals of our time)… Deepest respect. 🙏🏻🙏🏽🙏
Absolutely riveting. Thank you both.
Two of my heros in the same video 👍😃💕
"Diversity" is meaningless without diversity of thought and an environment that encourages one to develop, discuss and debate these topics where one's biggest fear is to temporarily look foolish. Not being put on a list, ticketed, jailed, or hounded by the Capital 'Police.'
I wholeheartedly agree. In solidarity from the UK.
Norman Finkelstein is someone I admire incredibly not only for his political stances but his unwavering ability to stand strong against opposition. His deep and immense knowledge regarding the Israeli-Palestine conflict has been top notch. Cheers.
Always look forward to any interviews with Prof. Finkelstein - he has such a refreshing perspective, but haven't seen much of him on any left youtube channels for a long time.
This guy on Curb your enthusiasm would be hilarious! Arguing with Larry! LOL
In a world of banal, populist crap this interview shines like a jewel..... I remember when there were current affairs programs on Tv (yes remmber when we watched tv!??) that were of this quality..... but now its so rare to get honest academic debate that one feels it's a special and rare treat. MORE PLEASE- we need hope.
Two intellectual and principled giants what an honour ❤
Frediceric Douglass was half white and 2 out of 3 of his wife's were White
@@mikenuzzo3323 So, you think that's important? The pigmentation of human skin is related to ultraviolet ligh and vitamin D production - nothing else.
Are you deluded?
@@maxheadrom3088 Yet people have been killed and dehumanized over it. You think the race you're associated with or have proximity to has no effect in a racist world, which we're still in? You sound so self satisfied as if you actually made a point. What else doesn't have an explanation like the one you gave for race? Btw you forgot to mention all the other aspects of race like facial morphology, hair textures and sometimes body proportions.
Norman always talking good sense.
This why the term intersectionality is so poignant but only to the extent that it includes fighting the elitist powers structures and institutions that oppress the rest of the general working class population
Identity politics and intersectionality are products of post modernism and holds very little if any water in the real world.
Intersectionality is just the oppression Olympics, aka a race to the bottom. Weaponized victimhood at best, subversion to a functional society, at worst
Please define 'intersectionality' in one sentence.
@@BrendanZ-cd4wr It's woke-speak for "divide and conquer".
I'm ordering his book today!!
Simply brilliant. This conversation is radicalism at its best.
I was searching for a way to describe how I felt and you described it perfectly, "Radicalism at its best".
I CAN'T SAY HOW BADLY NEEDED THIS DISCUSSION HAS BEEN THE LAST TEN YEARS WITHOUT SHOUTING. THANK YOU, CHRIS!!! AND NORM
Great pleasure to watch. Thank you for the interview.
I love Mr. Finklestein’s passion and resolve despite all of the opposition.
It's fascinating this invention of 'identity politics' as though it's ever been anything else is an amazing piece of marketing to divide and rule, shame it works so well....
Holy crap Chris. Thank you Norm.
Buying the book. Great interview.
The most down to earth intellectual and the greatest teacher I have ever had in my academic studies during my college years is Norman Finkelstein. Always pellucid and compelling, thought provoking with a depth of feeling and insight that captivates my entire being and makes me aspire to embrace and decipher the broadest abstractions with the most sensitive capaciousness. What an honor. Thank you, Gilbrando Acevedo
Thank you, Chris. In these crazy times good to know Norman is still truckin'! Bless you, 🙏
need part 2!
I'm instantly glad everytime i see Finkelstein's face on my screen, absolutely love him❤️
This interview was enormously informative for me. I saw an interview with Dr. Finkelstein on The Gray Zone a few years ago and enjoyed it immensely. Prior to that I saw a documentary on Link TV on him at least 15 - 20 years ago that also was excellent. Anyway, I was especially fascinated in this interview with the way he explained the “woke” movement’s role in sabotaging Bernie Sanders’ last presidential campaign. While I was obviously very aware of the role Clinton’s supporters were involved in that (how could anyone miss that?), I had not realized at all this new (for me) info. In fact I have been still trying to ascertain just what the term, “woke” actually means - if anything. Kudos to Hedges and Dr. Finkelstein.
Finkelstein is an admirable rebel. He has never sold out & always speaks truth.
I would love to see you and Middle Nation have discourse . Thank you for such a wonderful insightful video with one of my favorite people Mr. Norman Finkelstein .
Thank you Mr Hedges for interviewing Mr Finkelstein! There’s light at the end of the tunnel!
Steve Bannon: "I want them talking about Identity Politics all day long, and then we move with " Economic Nationalism" ("homeshoring") :divide and rule
Respect and the gratitude where they belong, this was one of the most beautiful segments that I have watched in the long time!!!
Whenever Norman is on fire, which happens to be all the time, thirty minutes is never enough: you need thirty hours (!)
The Holocaust Industry was a seminal text in my youth and in my radicalization. from what i can tell, Finkelstein has always been unwavering in his conviction and i respect the man for it. i read his latest and walked away with many, many thoughts. i am very glad I read it, and that it exists for others to read. at certain points it did seem like an out of touch old man screaming at clouds, but perhaps that was just his delivery and not the content. i encourage others to read it with an open mind. i disagreed with several of his points but still walked away more enriched by his ideas. it has certainly stuck with me like no other book i’ve read recently
When a Black person speaks up about police reform it comes with a quality that most White folks won't get. There is a depth of understanding the sting of racism. Some white folks will get it, without the depth of understanding racism. That changes the culture of classroom.
Nice example of racism. For a start, anecdotal experience has no value in any academic setting. Secondly, the bias against males in the criminal justice system is magnitudes higher than any bias against blacks. As is the bias against the poor, the young and many other biases. How hard is it to let go of race and racialising every subject? ie how hard it it to not be a racist?
Loving kindness and compassionate understanding are all the moral "code" anyone needs to understand.
Norman is a hero of mine. He is a great intellect who searches for truth, against what might be his own "natural" biases. He is like Noam Chomsky, one of the greatest American intellects of the last roughly 120 years.
Norm is not a fan of identity politics
Meh. Anything to stay relevant. The guy can't identify what he says he's against but spent a lifetime being that same entity. These two were woke before it became your boogeyman. ❤
@@ryancraig9352 white blood cells dont know what they are attacking. They just know something is wrong and they are trying to rectify it
Are you woke and cut up? @@ryancraig9352
I knew this but could not articulate it so well. Thank you for doing so. It is reassuring and hopefully more people grow to understand these deliberate dividing tactics
Advocating for black people or other identities is stopping you from uniting with them? Isn't that itself problematic?
As someone who has read Critical Theory, I actually know how difficult and tedious it is to get through this excuse for an academic field. And the only people ALWAYS speaking out for it are those who have read, at most, one book paper on it. Why is it that the most insistent "supporters" of this ideology have read only one book or paper of Critical Theory, at most? What's even worse than the most uninformed people being the most ardent defenders is theit utter ignorance, lack of self awareness, and lack of intellectual integrity that enables them to believe they are right, without the slightest hint of rationality in their reasoning. Sad.
I have so much respect for Norman and for you Chris ❤️
I always appreciate Norman's frank messaging. A true scholar.
What a brilliant thinker. Wonderful interview.
This interview was too short - please have norman back for hours on end, perhaps even on a regular basis. Despite his bland monotone delivery, he always has such a unqieuly stimulating effect on me - he leaves me feeling like these matters he's discussing really MATTER and that there is a profound value to engaging with ideas like these. He's so inspiring! I love the way he wanders academically to the strangest characters, and his enormous respect for erudition, intelligence, complexity of thought.
We need part 2!😂
Finkelstein has a great number of good analyses and opinions on a range of topics, but his take on affirmative action in student selections if weak here: the students are chosen not because they represent what their group in society _believes_ on certain issues, but because the _visibility of existence_ of that group in society in educational environments is beneficial. Young people sit in classes, they see classmates from different ethnic groups, and see that the society they are growing up in - and taking political positions in - is a diverse selection encompassing different backgrounds, ethnic experiences, etc.
As an Indigenous person I absolutely represent my culture. It is the basis of my cultural values and responsibilities. Those values and responsibilities predate whatever TRNN or Norm Finkelstein or the Maga cranks call woke or identity politics. Those terms have been used to silence and dismiss as we assert and live our sovereignty. And those first generation students in NF's classes who applaud one another I would suspect are there, too, because of similar responsibilities to family and community. I'm sure many of their families and communities supported their academic achievements. Yes, we are all individuals, just like all the anti woke, whether "left" or "right", who pound their dear American hearts as righteous individuals. We just have cultural order beyond Democrats or GOP or radical left or radical right. Our identities/existence are/is not based on our political alliances or union membership. For hundreds of years academic freedom meant the academy could lie and be used to oppress and dismantle our governments and cultural practices, from language to ceremony to economies. Anthropologists calling us extinct. Lawyers using the Doctrine of Discovery to dismantle and destroy. Politicians setting up North America's ethnic cleansing institutes aka Residential schools. Little old ladies and old men teachers in small town and big city schools preached about our dirtiness and ignorance and savagery to many generations of future good citizens who would then make decisions about our lives based on what they learned. Something as simple as expecting us to all have lice if we showed up at a public school, or that our parents drank or that they didn't work. When I went back to school, after dropping out at age 13, I could not have gone except that the college I applied to allowed students over 18 who hadn't finished high school (in my case had never gone) to attend if they could pass a composition course. Now, that requirement likely left out those who's first language wasn't English, but because colonization had basically frightened my grandparents/father and aunties and uncles from sharing our traditional language (except in hushed tones.in backyards away from the ears of white people), I am an ok user of the English language. So I got in. Was this a form of affirmative action? Is there more affirmative action now giving people like me (and yes there are many generations of us still grappling with yes, genocide) a chance to find professional opportunities? Dam right. And everyone of us graduates and future graduates are the doctors and nurses and surgeons and dentists and professors and architects and engineers and mechanics and computer scientists and business owners who give back. Yup, we give back because our communities need us. So get over yourself and your fear of a little word called woke. Most of us are more radical than any of you will ever be. Sure I like Obama but I'm not a fool. I know where those drones were sent and who they kiiled. Clinton put more poor people in jail with his 3 strikes, especially poor people who are Black and Indigenous and Latino. Would Bernie have not sent the drones? Bernie hasn't even called for a cease fire in Gaza. Look what happened to Jimmy Carter. He stood by and let Indonesia invade East Timor and kill thousands of people, because of their identity.
Well said 👏
Indigenous people are at the bottom of the bottom so they know how the system truly works. And the problem with the American system is that it's brand of Capitalism or Class base is rooted and maintained by right wing white male christian conservative ideology. Which explains why the masses of the white working class in the western countries have always leaned extremely towards right wing politics.
Very true. Indigenous people are ignored and not really embraced by the masses of america. What progressive intellectuals fail to realize is that American capitalism is rooted and maintained by extreme right wing racist, sexist, religious ideology. That's why identity politics exists so much in America. Sorry but class consciousness or class struggle is not going to solve America's social issues.
Precious interview. Sweetest calm gentle erudition coming through. Thank you both so much! Very lovely.
Finkelstein is a very educated person who is interested in complicated ideas and careful thinking!
Thank you for this interview with one of my favorite brilliant heroes. I love him.
Affirmative action was never about representation. It was about off setting racial injustice. About creating pathways out of poverty for an oppressed group.
And it was the wrong pathway, obvious from the beginning. Guaranteed to set the cause back instead of advance it.
AA has to go. It's a failed experiment
right on Norm Finkelstein! ✨🙏🌻
I agree that identity politics has gone to extremes recently. But let’s remember that white voters practice their own brand of identity politics yet never get called on it. There are countless examples of white voters abandoning their party of registration to vote for a white candidate. When they do it, it’s called politics or just individual choice. When Black voters go for a Black candidate suddenly it becomes identity politics. White voters are individuals making a reasonable choice. Black voters are caught up in group think just voting because a candidate is the same race as they are. We have to get past this double standard and recognize that many of these issues are complex and driven by a number of factors.
This is an excellent response.
Give me one ex? It is Black ppl who vote for their self-interests & get congratulated for it. Theres no such thing as a mainstream media person who gives the ProWhite viewpoint now that Tucker was cxl'd. Sean Hannity types speak up for Jewish-Zionists, Billionaires, the Pentagon. How does Fox News or any Republican or any media person or any congressmen speak for White working class ppl?
I love Professor Finkelstein: he has definitely become surly with time and now not only is he a great intellectual but also hilariously grumpy
Great interview Chris and NF is completely on point in everything he says.
Fantastic speaker and exactly what we need in these depressing times!
mickcanavan Which people yet again attempting to deny black people the same thing that everyone else's participates in? Very new
I saw the warning signs about Obama the first time... but voted for him anyway because I believed his Republican opponent was worse. I saw the Obama's true colors the SECOND time... but voted for him anyway because I believed his Republican opponent was worse. Done with that game! Obama was the last neoliberal candidate to ever have my vote.
Finkelstein is brave and fearless like Adolph Reed and Nell Painter and few others today.
I love the way how Chris Hedges articulate.
Finkelstein needs daily streams on his own channel. 🔥
Very thought provoking!
Need another 8 hr with Norm
I wanted to hear more
Woke was an adjective describing a black person who was aware of anti-blackness as a powerful cultural, social and political force in the world this knowledge prompt them to remain alert and on the lookout for signs of systematic injustice many scholars traced the term back to the 1923 collection of saying and ideas from the social activist Marcus Garvey
Yes however, it not longer means what you've just described it as since the term was co-opted the liberal intellectual left and bastardised into what it is now
Would love to see Adolph Reed included as a guest
Agreed!
Very interesting conversation thank you!
Thanks for hosting Professor Finklestein the distinguished ground breaking author. Enjoyed video.
dr. finkelstein didn't know that one month from the time he gave this interview, he would start doing overtime appearing in shows. fortunately he is strong and articulate and helped to set things straight! long love dr finkelstein!
Wonderful discussion, wonderful distinctions I had not before seen. Thank you
A very enlightening interview!
A pleasure to listen to Dr. Finkelstein. Always.
Thanks for this.
fascinating thanks again ❤
Part II please!!
We love you Norman!!!
god i love Finkelstein and always have. from when he debated Dershowitz on DN to when he attacked sewer rat (TM) Medhi Hasan
I heard him on unregistered podcast, the best podcast in the world. Sensational!
I love how well-read Dr. Finkelstein truly is as an author in US history he never sugarcoats and sticks to the facts. Exactly what a true scholar no matter their opinion should be stick to truth and the facts only not feelings. As a blind man I admire his constant standing in the gap for those who either do not have a voice or the platform to defend themselves.
That was great, thanks!
I learned a lot from you two! Thanks!
This discussion could be used to argue against the Australian Government's call for a referendum on 14th October to change the Australian Constitution to "incorporate" an elitist group of indigenous representatives that will "speak for" all of 152 diverse nations of Indigenous people within Australia. Calling their campaign "The Voice", Government is pouring millions of dollars into a "Yes" vote, that appeals to people's view of themselves as "kind and considerate". In actuality, it reverses a 1967 referendum that successfully outlawed racist behaviors. This "Voice" is foolish idea that will create division not harmony. One could ask "but why?"