Did Pokémon Ultra Sun/Moon RUIN one of the best villains in the series?
Man I had forgotten how rough the framerate is in these games. Then they went and made it worse in gen 8 and 9. Thanks gamefreak. Anyway, this is all to say sorry about the inconsistent frames in the video, blame the devs. ):
I HOPE YOU ENJOY THE VIDEO PLEASE LEAVE YOUR THOUGHTS IN THE COMMENTS THANKS!
I also apologize if I mispronounced anything, I'm not a native speaker :')
On another note, I want to point out that pokémon USUM has a SICK story trailer. I tried to add it here but alas my video was copyrighted, so I'll leave the link for you to check it out yourselves.
• Pokémon Ultra Sun and ...
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CHAPTERS:
00:00 - Introduction
02:13 - Sun/Moon story recap
17:45 - USUM story recap
23:29 - Analysis and Nihilego/Neurotoxin discussion
26:09 - Nihilego/Neurotoxin discussion
28:38 - Neurotoxin alternative
30:32 - Abuse discussion
35:54 - Objective improvements
38:11 - Does any of this matter?
39:55 - Ideas for improvements and outro
Catch me on twitch: / prismer
Catch me on twitter for news on other videos and random musings: / przmer
Thumbnail by Jupiter# 7544 (on discord)
#pokemonultrasunandultramoon #videoessay #pokemonsunandmoon
It's very much Lillie's story. Would've been revolutionary if your character was in her shoes, and refused to be silenced.
Exactly! Taking away so much of Lillie's opportunity to fight back and grow in ultra sun/moon was a huge slap in the face. But now you got me thinking about the incredible potential of a pokémon game without a silent protagonist......
@@prezmer Fight back and grow... The rebellion: "I don't need your approval, Mother! Or your permission! I will save Cosmog!" The growth after the outburst: "I feel like there's so much I have to do now... to save Nebby... to save my mother...I...I want to be like you, . I want to be strong enough to face any trial. That's why I'm going to try my hardest! This is my Z-Powered form!But...what are you going to do, Gladion? Yes, it's me! Now I'm ready to use my full force, too! Hau... Thank you for your kind words. I'm really happy you feel that way. Come on, ! Let's show the world what we can really do!" The result of that growth: "Please, leave this person to me... You should go on ahead, ! I will use my full power to help my mother! You keep moving on ahead, ! I will handle this!"
@@rpgfanatic9719 YES YES YES 100/10 omg we could even have a game with two protagonists, can you imagine? Lillie and us??? POSSIBILITIES ARE ENDLESS!!! - You also reminded me of another issue that I forgot to mention: we actually get to see the result of Lillie's whole arc of her wanting to become a trainer... in the ultra versions. Yet in the base games, the ones that actually developed Lillie well, we didn't. We got another pay off which was decent but... yeah, stung either way.
@@prezmer Yes, all of these quotes are from Ultra, it wasn't an indirect reminder.
@@rpgfanatic9719 I appreciate it! Your comment really puts into focus for me just how much it really is a matter of preference. Not saying your intent is to say you prefer this version of Lillie over Sun/Moon's, just pointing out how much more you've made me think about the subject. I didn't even explore what Lillie gained properly in the Ultras aside from a perhaps more realistic representation of her relationship with her mom (which, while bad, to some this realism is a plus) because I genuinely didn't see it. But your comment really put into perspective that just like Lusamine, there is a whole new Lillie there in her entire character arc that people might appreciate. I still prefer the old one because for me her growth is shown a lot more effectively with everything that happens in the ultra space in S/M, but... I see the arguments for liking the Ultras version too. Sun and moon is a very fascinating pair of games to talk about hah
I think anime Lusamine is the real Lusamine that wasn't affected by Nihilego. When you see Lusamine interact with Lillie for the first time, she immediately ran in for a hug since she has been busy running the Aether Foundation for years. When I saw that, I remember ingame Lillie talking about what her mom used to be, and I realized this was the person she was talking about.
As a child of an abusive household I enjoyed the original better because it seemed to be about standing up to abuse and how children aren't responsible for their parents and the ultra story seemed to me to do the opposite in which children are expected to forgive their parents abuse because what's really important is the bond of blood.
Yup, exactly. USUM made Lillie even be happy with the crumbs of attention she got, which is unfortunately all too real for people living with abusive parents. I, too, preferred the version in which we saw her standing up to her mom, but I can understand people who prefer the second due to how unfortunately common it is (and so, more "real"). I'm with you all the way though.
The anime did this too, and even worse, since she's literally forgiven of all crimes and is there on the opening of the league
@@NighteracI can’t help but wonder if the anime portrayal is the true reason Lusamine is changed for the Ultra versions.
@@intergalactic92 Honestly I don't know for sure, but I'm actually starting to think this too. All I know for sure is that she was sanitized since the original SM, as in toned down *a lot*. No Mother Beast Lusamine (except the anime, but she gets off scot-free after Ash saves her, she doesn't fall ill or anything), no Lillie having to look for a cure for her and going back to Kanto (she wants to become a Trainer but she's also doing it to find a cure for Nihilego's effect/toxins to Lusamine), none of these plot points are brought up ever again other than the original SM. Every single iteration of her, including Masters, follows how she behaves in the anime. She is lovey-dovey with Lillie and Gladion like nothing has happened. She's a doting mother. They never once mention how Lusamine was abusive towards Lillie, how Gladion and Type Null escaped because of Lusamine's obsession towards the UBs, how Lillie is specifically dressed to look like Nihilego, the relationship in general between Lusamine and Nihilego.. She's up announcing tournaments and events, again even in spinoffs like Masters? It just seems like because she got popular, they completely white-washed her of what actually made her character interesting to begin with in the original SM. It's a shame Heck, Bulbapedia even says in Lusamine's anime page that her character in the anime is "in sharp contrast to her portrayal in the games"
You put it in words. I can appreciate someone wanting to be there for a person who's shown they intend to change. But Lusamine didn't do that. Her kids both go make something of themselves in sun/moon. Usum doesn't build up the story between the family enough
Guzma not being crazy after his possession isn't that much of a problem for the neurotoxin theory. He only was under a Nihilego's yoke for a very brief time while Lusamine was probably way more exposed to their toxins during her years of research, probably even intentionally injecting or maybe even synthesizing some at some point given how, as angeldude101 pointed out, it can be seen as a metaphor of alcohol and addiction worsening one's behaviour, making the symptoms way more long-lasting and pronounced.
In my opinion I think after they released Sun & Moon, they either regret how the story turned out or other executives didn't like it and asked for change, because its not only USUM that toned down the mother beast that Lusamine got, the anime version was mostly a comedy first and foremost and Lusamine wasn't abusive at all there in the traditional sense so Lillie confrontation had no pay off and in the Pokemon Evolutions webseries, they decided to adapt USUM story over SM. What I am saying is that they are priorityzing USUM Lusamine over SM specially in adaptations, so in a way we might never see Lusamine being so aggressive abusive as in the original SM games again.
Ohhh that’s actually a really interesting theory! That only makes it even sadder of a situation though. OG Lusamine was something truly special, but I guess the powers that be wanted Pokémon to remain as kid friendly as humanly possible. Same reason why we’ll never see a team rocket game. Oh well.
In the anime, Lusamine's problem was that she was overly clingy of Lillie, though Lillie's reason for hating her was a bit immature (Lusamine had evolved her Clefairy into a form that she thought was "less cute", while Lusamine rightfully points out that Clefairy was her Pokémon, so she could evolve it if she wanted to). The fusion with Nihilego amplified Lusamine's childish sides, and Lillie gave her a speech that made her realize how immature she had been. Though, being a comedy series, Sun & Moon retained the less harmful parts of her childishness later on.
I like both the SM and Anime depictions of Lusamine. Sure they are very different depictions...but I think thats fine. to me USUM feels like its...trying to take a middle road which just DOES NOT work with these two takes.
Though Masters EX is kinda iffy on which story they are leaning into because of the design of Elio and Selene being their SM design, I'm pretty sure the USUM version of the story is canon in that game too
Something that should've been brought up is that neurotoxins that lower Lusamine's inhibitions is _far_ from unrealistic, _especially_ in the context of grief and abuse. I'm of course talking about _alcohol._ Lusamine in the originals was essentially using Nihilego to self medicate for the experience of losing Mohn. Keeping this up for too long can lead to addiction however, as well as rapidly worsening behavior. It's also possible that Lusamine had low empathy to begin with, but was able to compensate for it for the sake of her family and work. Drunk on Nihilego's neurotoxins however, that control would fly straight out the window as she starts acting more impulsively. This however is more of a stretch than just the alcohol metaphor. Meanwhile Nihilego is doing just fine. The whole reason it produces neurotoxin is to make other creatures less likely to harm it. With Lusamine going off the deep end, it seems to have hit the jackpot with a host more than willing to protect it from harm.
So this only thing Guzma is scared of is alcohol? I love that! X^D
@@victzegopterix2victorindem895I mean, if you wanna be deep about it it's not unreasonable. Guzma's father was abusive enough to literally attack him with golf clubs. It's not impossible that he might've also been alcoholic fueling those episodes. And if Nihilego's toxins is being taken as a metaphor for alcohol abuse it's not unreasonable to imagine that the way Guzma acted under its influence reminded him enough of his father and his own abuse to frighten and shock him out of its influence. That might even be an explanation for why Guzma was able to shake it off while Lusamine was under its influence for potentially years. The shock of Guzma essentially triggering his own trauma let him realize what it was doing enough to shake it off and be fearful of repeat exposure, where Lusamine had no such realization to shock her out of it and just kept digging deeper until the fight presumably left her too overexposed to the toxins from the fusion leaving her burned out and unresponsive to it letting her "come back to her senses".
@@Flameblight, yeah it would make sense... But I'm pretty sure that pokemon doesn't have alcohol or anything like it. What even would be the closest? Shuckle's Berry Juice?
@victzegopterix2victorindem895 Berry juice certainly seems likely as a possibility as far as the process is concerned. It's not a topic brought up much since it's a kids' game. Though I think the old man in RBY who teaches you how to catch pokemon was hungover in the originals? And I'm fairly sure there was a drunk character in the restaurant where you get the Coin Case at Celedon in the same games, too.
The neurotoxin and trauma response theories might not be mutually exclusive: perhaps Nihilego's toxins affected Lusamine the way they did because of the recent trauma. Like the trauma enhanced its potency.
Ahh that's actually a good point! Normally Nihilego needs to be latched onto the victim to have its nasty effect but since Lusamine had just lost Mohn when coming in contact with Nihilego, its effect was severely amplified and remained afterwards. I dig it! It still doesn't explain why she'd suddenly start improving after being removed from Nihilego's control in the ultra space, but then again, neither does trauma, so I guess we'll never fully get answers for everything. Which I guess is why it's so fun to speculate and theorize, heh
One could make an argument, that the frozen pokemon were actually Mohn's, and she tried to preserve them by freezing them.
That's actually a decent point, never considered that as a possibility! Can't remember if she said something to point towards either interpretation, but I thought she just froze cute stuff. Creepy regardless!
They're the Pokemon from the Tale on the trainer school
@@AndreaPancakesbut you can also see them at the pika valley area
The idea of Lusamine freezing the pokemon of her lost husband to preserve them is mortifying but great! But knowing that they are also Pokemon from a children's book, imagine if she had them around to entertain her kids but after becoming more abusive she froze them as a "punishment" for her kids?
That was the impression I got as well, that they were Mohn's.
I absolutely *despise* USUM for taking away the villainous mother who never apologized and never got better. Lillie and Gladion’s responses were so nuanced in the original: Gladion being Fucking Done, and Lillie choosing to help and forgive on her own terms, were both portrayed as good and reasonable options. My biomom liked to make a big song and dance pretending to be “sorry,” after multiple rounds of abuse, when she didn’t choose to paint me as a liar. People bought it every time. USUM expecting me to go along with that was an absolute slap in the face. It’s not “more realistic” to turn one of the most interesting and relatable characters into a doormat. I cut my biomom off at 13.
Thank you for sharing your experience, and I'm really sorry you went through it. Nobody should ever have to deal with anything of the sort. On a personal note, I agree. To me, what they did with USUM was absolutely terrible compared to the originals. Unfortunately though, not all are able to escape the cycle of abuse, and Lillie's portrayal in USUM is accurate for some folks (as I've even had people confirm was their case after watching this video). Sometimes we're so in it that we take whatever affection we can get, and it sucks - so it's "more realistic" in that sense. To this day, however, I'm not sure if it's actually a more realistic portrayal or not. I think, as always in life, it varies from person to person. I'm really glad that Lillie's second portrayal is far from your reality, and that you managed to recognize and escape your own abusive situation early on. I hope you've remained safe since then, and again, thank you for sharing (and watching)!
How??? Lusamine suddenly just called Lily beautiful in SM< in USUM she actually tries to change and even then knwos she can't just say all is fine and forgvine, it's more nuanced and realisticin USUM. USUM didn't expect you to go along with that. None of them became doormats though, but I am genuinely sorry you had to go through such terrible abuse.
@@jaydenc367 Because the entire rest of the game, Lusamine is acting like her unrepentant SM version. Then, LAST MINUTE, decides "No actually I'm gonna be a good mom" after getting her ass kicked by an alien and then going into a coma before she can even begin. It feels like it happened out of nowhere to make her into "the hero" who only wanted to stop the evil Necrozma, ignoring _literally everything else she's done and said_ up to that point.
@@vulpineflare8252Lusamine’s Intentions Were To Stop Necrozma(GOD) & She Failed At That , She Atleast Tried To Save Her Region But Her Effort’s Ended In Failure .. It Doesn’t Take Away From Her Character Tho NOBODY Can Defeat Ultra Necrozma(The Father Of Pokémon) !!! 👑🎯
@@jaydenc367I Agree With You , Ultra Necrozma SURPASSED Arceus & Became The Father Of Pokémon ! He Is The Hardest Boss Fight Ever .
There HAD to be drama around how to portray Lusamine behind the scenes, in SM she is completely unhinged, in USUM she is both abusive and redeemable somehow, and in the Anime she is just a good guy with very few strings attached.
I wish Gladeon had taken all three and eventually gave you and Hau the other two. He didn't necessarily have to use all 3, or he could have specifically broken in to save both Lily and the other two, who pick you and Hau.
That would've been cool! I think he couldn't run away with much though. He might've been preparing to break in later but he knew he'd need to be incredibly strong, which is why he hadn't done it. Aether Paradise was a damn fortress after all, and he wouldn't have made it in unnoticed as you need to take a boat to get there.
I think Mohn and Lusamine meeting is one of the best, probably the best, ideas for the Characters in USUM. USUM has many good ideas! Just surrounded by muddy sadly..
Definitely one of the best parts of USUM, agreed!
And to add to your point, my favorite part about USUM in terms of good ideas was Necrozma itself. Having a pokémon as the main villain?! Having it STEAL THE LIGHT OF MULTIPLE WORLDS?! How cool is all that?! But yeah, they went nowhere with the story... outside of arguably the hardest fight in any pokémon game, that is.
@@prezmer (sorry for being late) You're right that is SO cool! and they like, 'eat' the "Sun and Moon"??-- And the look? ahhhh ✨✨ So happy they made it~ DBZ vibes Do you have the feeling that Necrozma is legitimately one of the strongest pokemon in the 'mon universe? I remember sort of thinking it back when it was released 🤔
I think the biggest sin was robbing the players of directly fighting Lusamine in battle with your pokemon. For all intent and purposes, fused Lusamine is a pokemon. Having to hurt/fight a human with your pokemon in order to save the day would have been something. I was really thinking deeply and morally when the situation presented itself, only to have it be a nonfactor in the encounter. Would have been FAR better and deeper to have gotten this instead of what we did get.
As someone who was abused by their mother, I really really adored what the original sun and moon did and really DIDNT like what USUM did. Very few stories have the cast iron ones to actually make a mother abusive and make them abusive in a way many people don't categorize as 'enough to count' (emotional abuse is often not considered 'really abuse' and this is the justification many abusers make to themselves for why their actions are ok). I felt vindicated finally. Finally there was a much adored woman, beautiful and seemingly a loving parent, and then she was a monster when the doors were closed in a way that is hard to describe. Saying 'she wont let me buy my own things or do any chores' sounds absurd to complain about to an onlooker- people tend to think that this level of control is being privileged, and here what that sort of cloying 'for your own good' control shown as bad. I saw Lillie and Gladion and I saw myself- yes even in Lillies decision to choose to not cut contact. I didn't either. I think it would have been better if it was more obvious that Lillie by no means HAD to forgive or try to rehab Lusamine, that she had to be responsible for her care out of some owed level of familial piety. Because an abused child NEVER owes their abuser anything. They may CHOOSE to reach back out again, but they have no obligation to do so. Most media tends to take the reconciliation route and often imply that one should always try to reach out again and 'forgive' them for hurting you, which I dont agree with at ALL, but that is par for the course that the ending has a bit of that. It would have been too radical for gamefreak otherwise (trust me, abusive controlling parents can and do pull a LOT of weight- the the 'parents rights' thing) so ill take the scraps of the game even showing this kind of abuse. USUM framed her behavior as 'it was all due to some toxin which is why she chose to abuse her children and the type:nulls and orchestrate the ultra beast disaster so she is appropriately sad now and that means everything is fine and Lillie is being a good proper daughter by sticking with her and Gladion is upset for no reason, silly boy!' Its just... sickening. Like I don't mind tragedy where people don't end up leaving abuse- but pokemon is not a tragedy, and this is framed like something good and its not. The framing of the events is key, especially in childrens media. And the framing of not leaving abusive parents as good is... Bad. Very bad message for kids to see. I can tell you what, the single most influential and important piece of media for me growing up was His Dark Materials by Phillip Pullman for the fact that it ALSO had an abusive mother abusive in that cloying and controlling way. The line where one of the main characters describes the mother as treating her kid like a pet stood out to me and was key in me recognizing the abuse I was experiencing- of holding onto the fact that the way I was being treated wasnt right- to fight against the conditioning. And it was all about the tone and framing. USUM... Does the opposite of that, and I think about all the abused kids playing this game and getting it reinforced that their parents arent really doing anything wrong and you should forgive them when they *seem* to improve and it just makes me sick. The anime basically erased it entirely, which is further insult. They had something good and sanitized it completely out of existence in a way that reinforces the 'this isnt abuse everything is fine, see?' vibe. USUM did do some good things, but the story suffered severely(and honestly the gameplay becoming 'ohh this boss can one shot kill you and is way overlevelled this is totally adding the difficulty people want and isnt just lazy oohhh requiring revive spamming is peak gameplay' in places wasnt an improvement). It was quite disappointing to be honest. I was hoping they would fix the ending, maybe vindicate Gladion more who did basically nothing wrong and was right to run, but nope they made it all so much worse. Not to go conspiracy theory but I believe its possible they got too many complaints from higher ups and parents mad their kids are realizing they are maltreating them, and thats why they eased into nothing for the anime. They might lose those sweet sweet rich abusive parent dollars (which is a lot more money than you'd think).
First of all, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, and I'm sorry that this is such a personal topic for you. Having an abusive parent is something that I never wish upon anyone, it can really screw us up for life. And thank you for using the perspective gained from that to help us analyze this blunder (because I think we can call what USUM did a major blunder, right?). You brought me new things that I had not even considered. First, the messaging of USUM being terrible for children - you're right. It may be the one, big reason why it doesn't sit right with me, and you just made me realize that. I can't claim for sure it will happen but I can definitely see a kid identifying with Lillie's story, only to then follow in her USUM footsteps. And their world will definitely be made worse for that, if they don't turn back around someday. I understand it's hard for kids to even understand what's happening, but you're right that their favorite franchises can help with that - or not, in this case. This truly sucks. And you also made me realize that your conspiracy theory might be right. I wouldn't even call it a conspiracy theory to be honest, just a theory. Another commenter pointed out in some more detail about how both the anime and the manga completely changed Lusamine's character, so it's very clear that they regret whatever they did with Sun/Moon Lusamine. The reason why they decided to change her we will never know, but your theory is really, really plausible. Man, and when I thought that this whole situation couldn't get worse. When I post these videos, it's not to go viral, be famous, whatever. It's precisely to get comments like yours - and many others in this section - who hear me out, and further the debate, giving me new fascinating perspectives to consider. Again, thank you, and I hope you no longer have to endure what you did in your past.
@@prezmer First off, thank you for your kind words. It was a long time ago, so yes, I am safe now. Yes, USUM was a big blunder, and I hope in the future if Gamefreak decides to be brave and include themes of abuse again that they choose to take a little more care in how they frame the resolution of that. Im glad my comment was useful for furthering the discussion!
Yes, yes absolutely agree..
I am so sory what you had to go through....that must have been awful and no child should ever have to suffer abuse from their parents. Ok so....USUM is one of my favorite Pokemon games and I believe it majorly is better then SM INCLUDING in story so....yeah I strongly disagree and let me explain. No USUM doesn't frame her behavior as that at all, if anything I hear people say that SM uses the toxins as a excuse more and no in USUM not everything is fine which Lusamine makes clear herself as she isn't gonna be trying to control her children's lives and knows that it's up to them if they want her back in their lives or not but that she can at least protect them from a distance so no Lillie wasn't just sticking with her and Gladion was upset for pretty good reasons...so how is any of that sickening? Her changing is good and her children having their own agency is good. It isn't framed as that at all, they had the choice to distance themselves from her and they did that. So this really isn't a bad message for kids to see. USUM doesn't do the opposite of that at all, that's literally never reinforced...Lusamine realized her mistakes and literally CHANGED, it never says to forgive your abusive parents and Lusamine says it herself basically that even if she does change she can't bring herself to get close to her kids again.....why does that make you sick? Not really...it makes sense for the ratings really and it's still done well. It isn't that vibe at all, in SM anime Lusamine just actually isn't abusive. Nah the story was improved (not really the gameplay was still great, that isn't lazy at all...not with necrozma's moveset and strats and how you gotta use strategies and not just revive spam, it is peak gameplay and it feels like a proper boss fight too, so yes it was an improvement in just about all places). How was it disappointing? Genuinely it's the best enhanced version games. Not really they made it better, Lusamijne and Lillie both develop as characeers more. I doubt that is quite what happened. How much money is that exactly?
@@SilverSalamence Glad to hear you are safe at least... But still USUM really wasn't a blunder tbh.
I personally wanted it so that in ultra games, lusamine helped you beat necrozma but while the light of necrozma is vanishing she backstabs the player and takes the light for herself so she can manipulate the pokemon multiverse and enter Nihiligo world through her technology powered by necrozma and then the freed nebby takes you to lusamine and you have to fight her fusion form again but this time it also has aspects of ultra necrozma in it.
Ohh that would actually have been a pretty awesome way to fix the issues I mentioned! I really like that idea! I also really like your username and profile picture. Danganronpa is one of my favorite game series!!!!
@@prezmer thanks, Junko was always one of my favourite characters of all times and ironically Lusamine gives major junko vibes but less extreme lol
Ultra SuMo should have been the B2W2 of SuMo. I bought it thinking that
That's a good point! I'd love for it to have been a direct sequel. And honestly, even within the Necrozma storyline, I feel like it had more potential to really shine. Aside from the solutions discussed in the other comments and the video itself, I gotta add that if you haven't (and this goes for anyone reading), take a look at the SICK story trailer they released for USUM. I actually tried to include it in my video but nintendo said no. ): kzhead.info/sun/qpipoaaEi2WmmWw/bejne.html
@@prezmer Yeah! It does look like a GRANDER story, one with bigger stakes and new plots (barring.. ya know a couple shots here and there), which ya know HAPPENS IN SEQUELS! There was so much they could have done like having our old player character being the champion but lets say... 15? Or at least a teenager, giving insight onto the ultra beast breakout from the first SuMo and how it lured Necrozma in (the post game story with Looker alludes to it). Lillie could have returned from her journey older and stronger maybe even for a big save with Nebby! Lusamine, now cured and remorseful, could have teamed up with you to battle Ultra Necrozma and undo the damage she caused! It also just makes sense on a story level, the first SuMo was very personal and character focused, a sequel raises the stakes by now making Necrozma a huge threat to the region. You know how in post-game you can traveling into the ultra wormhole yourself to each Ultra Beasts world? That expands scope, another thing a sequel should do! The stakes are raised, the world is expanded, the characters are expanded, if Ultra SuMo was treated as a sequel like I'm taking about it would have had tremendous potential. But alas... we can only think about what could have been... Hell, feel free to use that as a video idea if you like, "What if Ultra SuMo was a sequel?"
Oh dude so many great ideas! If Gamefreak is ever hiring, you should consider applying. Though at this point I'm convinced they only employ folks who are not fans of the series. Just a personal theory of mine. I appreciate the video idea too, it's brilliant! I'm not at all a pokémon youtuber (I just do reviews and occasional essays on random gaming topics) but I have to say that the success of this video has given me so many ideas for content (mostly due to seeing passionate fans like yourself). I was already considering analyzing how pokémon snap makes repetition fun, but now I'm also considering your idea, analyzing x/y and why a pokémon Z is sorely needed, if sword/shield really are a shameful display of a complete lack of storyline... the only problem is I'm afraid some topics, such as the last one, would be too negative hah. But I did a good job balancing this video, so who knows. Anyway, thank you so much for the food for thought! All we can do now is have some hope that gamefreak decides to course correct in the inevitable gen 7 remakes like 10 years from now!
Yeah I remember when the game was initially revealed a lot of people really hoped that’s what it would be since the last games like it were black and white 2
Oh yeah, don’t get me started on that…..
You know what's strange is that squid lusamine is still in the data for USUM although it could have been a leftover. I do think they did lusamine dirty and her reasoning seems to be a little off in USUM. Her reasoning does make more sense in SM and everything that happens makes sense for her and her family. In USUM she's like a very different person and they changed a few things and said it will work and it just doesn't just not fully. What they should have done is keep Lusamine the same and perhaps take on necrozma in her squid form but is knocked out or perhaps she wants the power for herself by using everyone to get there and betraying the cast to do so
I had no idea squid lusamine was still in the data for USUM, but knowing gamefreak, you're probably 100% correct in the leftover theory. They did reuse their 3ds animations for sword/shield after claiming they were cutting the dex to focus on animations and visuals and stuff, so... I don't doubt anything from them, unfortunately. But yeah, I agree with you, I also prefer SM Lusamine. I like your idea of squid form going up against Necrozma! Regardless if it's this or the few other ideas thrown around in the comments (all of which are good), I feel the root of this problem is that she just needed to keep her nihilego obsession for things to make more sense, including her motivations and Lillie's whole look. But alas, as I said in the video, abuse doesn't always need a reason, and some people actually liked her not having an "excuse" like the neurotoxins, so I'm at least glad USUM version was loved by some fans!
Well, development-wise USUM is literally just the same game but with just more stuff than SM. You could argue that USUM is an "official Romhack".
No That Makes No Sense , Ultra Necrozma Is The HARDEST Fight Ever & The GOD OF EVERYTHING !!! 👑
I desperately need a mod of this game where it has the story of SM and the gameplay of USUM, maybe if even possible also moving Ultra Necrozma as a post game episode. Ig also a cutscene skip button, I dont mind the cutscenes and dialogue but it can help for repeat playthroughs. To me that would be the ideal game.
As a gen 7 nerd, im excited for this video. I’ll report back my impression at the end Edit: so it went hard
I hope I managed to do gen 7 - and your expectations - justice!
OH MY GOD THANK YOU- I played the og sun/moon when i was a kid and LOVED the story. So when the ultra games came out i was confused as normal sun and moon hadnt reached the end of its lifespan yet. I then saw they changed the entire story, basically shoving the old characters out of the way for these newer "cooler" characters. Ultra sun and moon are fun games, but i will always hold a grudge to how they just made the original games completly irrelivent. The orignal story was far from perfect, but it deserves to be seen and not just forgotten. Possesed lusimine looks SO FUCKING COOL- the original story gave some well fleshed out characters (except hau. Fuck hau) and the ultra games just completley removed that. Lusimine is such a good villian. Its a shame it now lives in the ultra games shadow. Ultra sun and ultra moon are better games, but sun and moon are a better story
This has been on my mind for years and im so happy to finally see someone else adress it
i stringy agree that Lusamine (myself?) had a much better story in SM. she was, and still is, such a unique character with the way and reasons she interacted with the characters. she is much better written that other villains, taking a more adult turn with the abuse towards Lillie and Gladion. in USUM, i feel she was robbed. she is just shown as a generic motherly character, instead of the creative 'villain' of the story. the way in which she herself is not the villain, but Nihelligo (spelling?) is, is cool how a Pokémon (ultra beast) is able to control a human character, rather than the other way round. i think they tried to do this again in USUM with Necrozma, but this left people still wondering more about Lusamine. also why the remove the battle theme :(
omg yeah, the battle theme loss was tragic ): they absolutely tried to do it with Necrozma as well, yeah, and I dare say it would have worked because stealing the light of a world is a SICK premise... but they went and sacrificed the nihilego arc in favour of Necrozma. Oh well.
This is pretty good. Honestly, yeah, I don’t think USUM doesn’t handle the abuse plot well. And Lusamine has bugged me a lot. Whilst she is basically a fusion of Ghetsis and Lysandre, when you have your first and currently only time where the big bad is a woman (Sada is a weird one), motivations of vanity and equating her evilness to motherhood can be construed as playing on some sexist tropes. Doubly so when they do the “I wasn’t inherently evil. I was just corrupted by external forces” angle. The idea that she’s not see as “inherently bad” in a way that you don’t really see as a justification for most of the other villains. Frankly, it would’ve been better if Nihilego’s poison, in the words of Robert Caro, instead showed how power can reveal a person’s true nature. That might be why anime Lusamine is jarring to me. She feels like the answer to “what if Sun and Moon Lusamine wrote the anime?” The Rainbow Rocket Storyline might’ve been better if USUM Lusamine met SM Lusamine. One who had won the game and became the logical extreme version of herself. This would really test Lusamine; does she act better now because she’s actually tried to become a better person or is it because she knows people can and will beat her?
The only real weird thing about Sada being a villain is that we never actually meet her in that way. Otherwise she absolutely was. I feel like thinking in terms of vanity and such being sexist, they did vanity with Lysandre in the previous game, and he was also obsessed with beauty.
@@BJGvideos Yeah, Sada is an odd duck in that regard. She and Turo are very Rose Quartz in that way, with the AI feeling like better parents than them. I think with Lysandre, the vanity being part of a character wanting to make things “pure” by essentially committing genocide to either people or Pokémon is fitting in terms of aesthetics. I think it’s just that vanity is a heavily gendered kind of vice in villains. It’s much easier to portray someone who is vain in a more feminine way than a masculine way.
I think it could’ve been cool had they made ultra sun and moon take place after sun and moon, like black and white ver2
I personally feel that they should’ve had gone all the way they did with Lusamine in USUM. Have her be focused on combating the Ultra Beasts that she has Nebby and Type: Null be given to Lillie and Gladion respectively as to prevent any distractions from her work. Have her run herself ragged to the point she makes a small mistake that ends up only benefiting Necrozma. Perhaps Team Skull are hired to act as bodyguards for Lillie and Gladion who you fight with as to pass time. Maybe with Guzma and Lillie getting a scene talking about Lusamine and her state.
oh this comes at just the right time for me huh. the eshop closing put me in a mood to replay some of my favorite games on it and i just got done with moon and plan to start ultra moon soon, exactly for this reason! i wanted to compare the story, even the small details. Even when i was younger i remeber the storyline of s/m really leaving an effect, and playing thru it a bit older now its even better then i remebered.
Oh yeah... the e-shop is closing soon. Ah, this sucks. If you do replay the ultra versions and find out things I didn't think of, please do leave your thoughts here! I'd love to read them!
The ultra games should have been full on sequels with Gladion as the head of the aether foundation and the ultra recon squad as a full on team.
Ohh that would've been great. No Lusamine would solve a ton of the issues I mentioned, and it would give Necrozma an opportunity to shine solo, which it desperately needed. I mean, a pokémon as a "villain"? One that steals light from worlds even? How cool is that? But instead we got a half baked... well, everything, really, because they created an amalgamation of both plots. Oh well.
@@prezmer yeah it could have also been a creature that powers up ultra megalopolis using its light which could had left to an energy crisis which is why the ultra recon squad (who could have acted as the police of the Ultra megalopolis) is in alola attempting to syphon their light or something like that. Like you, i'm also salty that the megalopolis wasn't Lumiose or even Castelia levels of big.
What a wonderful analysis!! Thanks for making it! If I could, I would’ve kept both storylines as you mentioned near the end, but treat the Necrozma storyline as a post game one similar to the Rayquaza & Deoxsys story in ORAS. Maybe Necrozma heads for Alola in the first place *after* the Legendaries brought the Protag & Lillie to Ultra Space to save Lusamine, and it could’ve given Lusamine & Lillie even more of an arc where Lillie enforces her autonomy and make Lusamine realize she has to take responsibility for what she’s done. It also would’ve put Necrozma in a fantastic narrative standing, really getting to show it as the hurt and damaged creature it is, lashing out in violence after being hurt and abused. Maybe even give Lillie a chance to connect with it after it’s been defeated and help heal it like she did her mom?
Honestly, I prefer USUM because it gave Necrozma a purpose/back story rather than just throwing him into a random encounter in a random area. it's also my favorite game of all time lol
It's true, we actually got a version with the third legend instead of the games getting the x/y treatment in which Zygarde was sacked. Huge plus there for sure, even if I wish they still did more with the whole story. And great choice in favorite game!
Ultra Necrozma Is The FATHER OF POKÉMON !!! 👑
Personally, I liked Sun & Moon's Lusamine better. Where else do you get to fight that specific version of Nihiligo? Where else in the Pokémon Games can you find that version? I rest my case. Sure you don't get to fight Lusamine head on but this version of the story fits the Ultra Wormhole plot better.
Yeah, I'm with you. I still prefer the originals too, but I was surprised to see how many valid arguments there are for preferring the ultras' Lusamine!
Plus squid lusamine is still in the data for the ultra games
@@Venemofthe888 Really? Oh wow, I had no clue. So it was even easier for them to add her and they just didn't. oof.
@@prezmer yh I remember seeing someone doing a randomiser of USUM and her battle theme and battle intro is still in the games. I don't know if it was a leftover but yh its still there hidden away
@@Venemofthe888 I didn't know about this until now. My guess is that the Ultra Games used the exact same code as the originals which is why stuff from OG Sun / Moon can still be found in these versions.
A lot, and I mean that, of people miss this point, but Lusamine in both SM and USUM is defined by obsession, and her abusive behaviour towards her children is a side effect of that. I think she gets called out on it in BOTH games, actually, but people pay more attention to the abuse. There’s a lot more nuance to her as a character, and USUM actually delves deeper into her as a person. She lost her Husband to their shared research into Ultra Wormholes, and thus became obsessed with them. She’s flawed as a person due to the tragedy surrounding her, and as a result of that she was consumed by her obsession, to the point where she became possessive of those around her. It doesn’t really justify any of her actions, but it does explain them. The Anime also has a VERY different take on her as a character: she isn’t antagonistic at ALL, but she does still have that obsession. It’s something that’s consistent with all her appearances. USUM shows during a post credits scene that she’s gotten over it by the end of the game. Mohn, her Husband that she lost all those years ago, shows up at her literal doorstep, and she just lets him go, with just the note that “he seems happy”. By that, it shows she’s ready to move on. I’ll also note that in Pokémon Masters EX, she actually _lacks_ any form of antagonism, and her children actually tend to hang around with her. This Lusamine is specifically the USUM version: she faced Necrozma, as confirmed by herself in her Sygna Suit event, where she teams up with a different Necrozma, one that has mutual symbiosis with a Solgaleo.
I dislike how the neurotoxins are passed off as being unrealistic. It can serve as an allegory of substance of abuse. I live in that reality of living with an alcoholic father who gets unnecessarily violent when he drinks and even controlling. He cant go a single day without a drink. The neurotoxins doesnt serve as an excuse to justify her behavior, but rather it is an explanation. It shows how substances like these are addicting and can change people for the worse. Of course not all abusive parents need substances to be abusive (my dad even has moments when he isnt under influence), but it doesnt make one or the other any less "real". Some people live the reality of USUM and I live in the reality of SM.
I prefer the original sun and moon story. I really enjoy Lillie's story in those games. I'm surprised by how little people talk about the story of SM I genuinely think that it is one of the pokemon best stories ever. And I fill never forgive USUM for removing the scene in Exeggutor Island 😭
it would've been cooler to see Lusamine make an effort to rehabilitate, Team Rainbow Rocket should've played a bigger part trying to control Necrozma and Lusamine especially Ghetsis. Ultra Recon Squad, Team Skull and Looker should've been attempting to bring them to justice, they should also take over the region using Necrozma as a becon.
Ngl when I played as a kid USUM was my first game and my child mind thought that the whole crazy Lusamine thing actually happened during my playthrough
Hahah the mind plays weird tricks on us. I hope you eventually got to experience the original stories though!
Well, manga combined SM and USUM and did better Lusamine was obsessed with ultra beasts after Faba dropped Mohn into a wormhole and poisoned Lusamine with neurotoxins. She became part of Nihilego , and collected ultraballs from Colress to catch the best UB - Necrozma. Lillie finds out that her father had returned to the world , but he lost his memory and was searching for his family, she told this to the Nihilego-Lusamine , and she return to the normal , while the dex holders were fighting Ultra Necrozma . Faba did not wanted this to happen , he created a dictatorship in the Aether Foundation after Lusamine brought her lovely beasts to the Alola, he was desperate and was cought at the end by nihilegos and he was lost in the ultraspace . Nihilegos are catching the person with despair and turning their despair into happiness, which they did to Lusamine after she lost Mohn , and Faba , who lost all of the control and wanted to run away from everyone who he hurt .
These two sets of games convinced me that the pokémon fanbase realy dosnt know what they want. It already started in gen5 where people wanted a game with new pokémon only and when they got it, it was the most disliked set (original black and white) of games up untill that point. Then people wanted a 3D game, X and Y come around and people disliked the 3D models. Then people wanted a more story driven pokémon game, SUMO/USUM release and people cry about all the cutscenes.
Yep, even with SwSh people complained about move animations taking years but when they are drastically reduced in SV people complain
Black and White were WIDELY LOVED upon release. I don't know WHERE this lie came from that they were ever hated but I was there, and I was a mod on Bulbagarden at the time. I saw it first hand.
@@BJGvideos I never said they where hated. I said they where the most disliked at the time. a few moments of your own research could tell you that the general fanbase did share this opinion. Unless you're on about gaming outlet reviews. which where really high, yes, but as that famous IGN review for ORAS should tell you, gaming outlets don't realy reflect the general publics opinion
@@BJGvideosmost people who talk about gen 5 love it, but it was the worst selling generation…..
@@QuantumIVSV battle animations and overall battle pacing are long af, Gen 5/Gen 6/Arceus did it better
Gods I have so many feelings about sun/moon and the way usum frustrated me that I can't even write a proper comment about it lol. Sun/moon was the game I needed at a time when college was my way out of a terrible situation and I was very alone. I consider Sinnoh my home region and Alola the region I moved to lol, the communal nature of Moon and a plot line that made me feel seen and the hype season leading up to them was just what I needed
The issue is that Lusamine WASN’T the villain, she was possessed by Nihilego through despair trying to continue the research that made her lose her husband. It reminds me of “a certain character” from Chainsaw Man who became the thing they feared the most & became a villain via possession. Making her egotistical ruined the point of her being a good mother at her core. Lillie & Gladion left because their mother had become a monster. BECOME is the key word, not “Always Was”. It’s genuinely sad how few people played the Post-Game of Sun & Moon where Wicke revealed this information.
Yeah, precisely. Although Lillie also tells us that she was a good mother with the whole exeggutor island cutscene, which is why it's a MASSIVE loss to USUM. I also preferred the SM version but yeah, some people are all for that "always was" representation, or so I found out. And yeah, it's a shame about the post-game stuff. Most people don't even know Lusamine gets closure on Mohn in USUM by having him visit Aether Paradise because the cutscene is hidden behind one of Gladion's monthly champion challenges. Oh well.
Also your profile pic is cursed and I love it
So like, she's an 'antagonist' but not 'supervillain', people do get the feelings mixed around sometimes when analyzing characters.. the titles aren't always one and same? ^^;
Nihilego wasn't controlling her actions. It released toxin as a survival method. Lusamine still had the ability to make her own decisions.
While it does suck that we lost Lusamine as the main villain, I am okay with it considering we got the first villain that is actually JUST a Pokemon that is not being manipulated by any outside force. It's just Necrozma being rightfully furious that its power was permanently taken by the very people it protected out of the kindness of its heart and will exact revenge at all costs. Necrozma will take back what was stolen from it, as well as all light from the universe in its boundless rage. A life-giving star, reduced to an all-consuming black hole. And I LOVE IT.
So why strong-arm that into this game? Why not put that story in a NEW game? One that wasn't already established?
When it comes to whether it matters or not, I think the issue I see there is that the characters are established from SM. So when they decide to rewrite them in USUM, then it caused some backlash. If it was me to do it, I'd just do USUM as a sequel from the original, like how B2W2 was a sequel to BW.
"kick some ass" LIVE ZORUA REACTION
The neurotoxins always felt like a substance abuse metaphor.
i think personally there was no need to get rid of lusamine.i liked the og sun and moon better and despise ultra for getting rid of their bonds.your sugestions at the end of the vid are real good i liked that
Yeah, I'm on team OG sun and moon too. It's a shame because ultra sun and moon had such a cool premise. I mean, a pokémon that steals the light of all worlds?! How cool is THAT?! But alas, it was fumbled, especially due to lusamine's treatment. Thank you for watching, and for the compliment!
was fun watchin i was thinkin about havin an lusamine themed dnd char and was reserching @@prezmer
I feel this is very much a debate that comes down to personal preference. I personally feel that it's really cool that they changed Lusamine from a flat out villain to an anti-hero of sorts. One of my main problems with the originals is that Lusamine's character is in many ways just... combining Ghetsis' "abusive parent with an unhealthily high opinion of themself" with Lysandre's "rich person obsessed with beauty turns out to be the not-so-twisty twist villain". Making her into an anti-hero who is genuinely trying to do the right thing, but for the wrong reasons, distinguishes her from previous antagonists much better than her just being a full-on villain. I also don't agree with the idea that her abusive elements are dropped at any point. She's still just as much of a dick to her kids, right down to a lot of the same dialogue, it's just that less focus is put on it. The reason she acts the way she does after getting her butt kicked by Necrozma isn't concern for Lillie specifically, it's because she's afraid and genuinely believes it would be best for Lillie and the player to run away. Abusive as she is, she also sees herself as a responsible adult, and given her high opinion of herself she has no reason to believe the player, however skilled they are, could take on Necrozma if she and Guzma utterly failed. So she tells the kids to get out of the dangerous situation. And when Lille shows concern even for Necrozma, Lusamine basically tells her she's too kind for her own good and calls her sweet but foolish, going right back to verbal abuse. On both those notes, I feel that despite the reduced focus, Lusamine's character development is much better in the Ultra games. In the original Sun and Moon, she vanishes forever after one line that kind of, sort of, hints at a potential redemption. There's no real reason to believe that she won't go right back to her abusive ways once she recovers. While in the Ultra games, she's ultimately humbled by her defeat by Necrozma. She failed, and this, in combination with speaking with Lillie(Which was probably a lot more heated than either lets on, and was probably more of a confrontation than an conversation, given the drastic change in Lusamine's behavior after this), leads her to admit that she was wrong. And she's genuinely remorseful: Speaking to her in Aether Paradise, she talks about how she can no longer face Lillie and Gladion and feels unworthy to be president of the Aether foundation, but resolves to make an effort to do better both in her role as a mother and as a pokemon conservationist. She even gets that bit of closure on the Mohn situation, where she willingly chooses to let him go this time. USUM gives Lusamine a chance for growth and proper redemption that the originals never gave her, since she only has one line after being defeated there. It also flat out proves that the neurotoxin misconception is not a valid explanation for her behavior by showing that she's just as bad in a version of the story where she hates ultra beasts. She's acknowledging her past mistakes and wrongdoings, and she openly desires to make up for them, rather than the one-line "redemption" that the originals gave us. In the end, both games have their good and bad sides. I would argue that while a direct sequel probably would have been better, overall USUM does improve the story in ways that a sequel could not have done. Also, about Lillie's outfit... Yeah, it's baffling to me that they didn't make some changes to Lillie's original design to help show how Lusamine's ultra beast obsession is one of hate here.
Yeah
I have to agree. On the one hand, I adore Lillie's character development in the base games. However, I find how the Ultra games handled Lusamine just slightly more interesting, as the Pokémon games never really had a villain that wanted to try to make up for their mistakes at that point. Though I might mostly be saying that because Pokémon Masters EX uses USUM Lusamine, giving the writers the opportunity to explore more how Lusamine’s past actions haven’t been completely forgiven, especially by Gladion and Lillie as shown in their introduction event, which, again, you wouldn’t really get a chance to see from any other villain. Though a couple pieces of the side dialogue in that event, such as a mini scene of Lusamine seeing Lillie going clothes shopping with Clair and worrying over what they might get Lillie to wear, only for the scene to laughed off at the end, could be seen as in poor taste.
I would say that the manga halfway fixed this by giving us (in my opinion) the best version of lusamine, but by combining this with ultra sun and ultra moon, well, let's say it loses the joke a bit, especially since lillie makes him a SAVE MARTHA to lusamine and now, there it was fixed
I’m going to be completely honest. I haven’t finished Ultra Moon. I won’t go into why but I basically stopped just before the Guzma fight and never picked it up again. I’m only just admitting that I won’t ever go back and finish it. I have numerous problems with the Vanilla version if this game, but the plot revolving around Lillie and Lusamine was great. That single element redeemed the games for me. As you say, it is Lillies story and we the player are just along for the ride. I can understand why certain players wouldn’t like that but I’m all here for it. I’ve heard rumblings of the Ultra version completely changing this element, which has left me concerned, but seeing it explained in full….. frankly I’m disgusted. In a nutshell Lusamine is completely different character in each version. In Vanilla she is abusive, cruel and obsessive to an utterly self destructive degree, only truly seeing the light once the source of her obsession is destroyed (I don’t buy the neurotoxin theory btw, I think that unresolved trauma from losing her husband led to her obsession with collecting pretty things as a coping mechanism, which eventually extended to the Ultra Beasts), and it is resolved with the kids not fully forgiving her but moving on with their lives anyway. In Ultra, she is not…. In Ultra, based on this explanation at least, she seems to be distant, rather than cruel, with a noble goal. I’m not certain I can see any actual abuse from her in this. I’m left to wonder why the kids ran away in the first place. It’s like we have to assume she’s abusive because of how she is in the vanilla version yet the Ultra version doesn’t show any of that. And while I think of it, how does her having a noble end goal make her portrayal as an abusive parent better? Is that supposed to make us feel better when they redeem her? Is this to line her up more closely to her anime counterpart? Is that what people like? Or Do people like the Ultra Version because Lillie gets pushed to the background and thus you, the protagonist, are the main character again? But again, I haven’t actually played the ultra version all the way through. I’m making observations based on this video alone.
I think I prefer SM Lusamine. I know I prefer SM Lillie. I hope this isn't too much to share but I played original SM while growing up and living with an abusive mother. The portrayal ment a lot to me and I didn't know about the toxin theory at the time I just always assumed she was just abusive. Even without toxin theory she always had the reason/excuse that she was distraught or dealing with PTSD. The fact of the matter is that all abusers have their reasons and excuses. It's part of what makes abuse so insidious and part of what makes it hard to understand what's happening is abuse, especially as a child. At the end of the day though nothing and no one has ever forced the hand of an abuser even as we can understand and sympathise with their situations. I feel this very strongly as someone who had and abusive mother. Many people throught my life have tried to make exuses for her even people who have no knowledge of the situation, but the truth is nothing and no one made her do what she did and the same goes for lusamine. I think the best thing that SM did in regards to abuse is showing through Lillie and Gladion how forgiviness or a lack there of are both viable options. I my self have wrestled with both. To this day I'm still shocked that pokemon of all franchises would tackle these themes in a game. It felt very grounded and real. I do empathise with the fact that changing any parts of the story could have disasterous consequneces, but that they had to change the story for US and UM to bothe feel different and add the new content but I still feel it could have been done better without diminishing the abuse elements.
As someone with an abusive mother... I like both versions. In SM, you can see how twisted and far gone she is. And when she's defeated, she finally acknowledged Lillie and her growth. Calling her beautiful... got me in all honesty. As for USUM, I liked the fact that she just wanted to stop Necrozma out of sheer SPITE for taking her husband away and breaking her family apart. Granted, she did a lot of work on her end to do that but still. Do I find frustrating Lillie's and Lusamine's relationship starts mending off-screen? Absolutely! But that cutscene after you defeat Ultra Necrozma always felt to me like the START of their relationship mending. I wish it was done on-screen but I did like that a start happened. And it gave me faith that my own mother could turn a new leaf. And she did. That's why I like both versions. At the end of the day, Lusamine redeemed herself. USUM just gave her a chance to do so. Could have been done better? Hell yes! But a start is something and... I appreciate that.
I personally always thought it would’ve been better if the entire story was mostly just the same, but after defeating Lusamine in ultra space on your legendary before being ambushed by Necrozma your way out, forcing you to then borrow one of Recon’s legend Aries to fight Necro
Personally i think she's always unhinged, abusive, and fascinated by Nihilego but it's only the toxins that really drives her off the deep end.
I feel like she probably had dark impulses or something. We all do, to some degree. But the toxins brought it to the forefront. She was still in control of her actions, still making her own decisions, even with the erosion going on.
I hate that people need to use "relatability" as a meter for measuring storytelling. I've seen that used for television shows and just because a story can have characters that mimic the behaviors of people doesn't mean that it's going to make the story good (especially in comparison to a version that came before it). I don't need USUM Lusamine to be a more believable abusive/neglectful mother because the astronomically vile Lusamine one we got in Sun & Moon provided a better story because of the extremes she went to. USUM Lusamine just looks like a dumbass. If you want the best of both worlds, there's the anime version of Lusamine where she's neglectful, but she's not absolutely vile or ill-intentioned (especially for the sake of being a recurring and supportive character for the remainder of the Alola arc of the anime) When I mentioned people using "relatability" as a meter for measuring storytelling, I was recalling people using that to claim that a show that I watched a few years back, _Star VS The Forces of Evil,_ had a great finale. It did not. It was hot garbage. But some of the most diehard fans wanted to die on that hill because "messy teenage character are relatable to real teens today" thus the characters are "well-written" as a result (and it didn't help that the series creator used this bad excuse during a reddit AMA). Let's just say that series had a messy shipping plot and everyone came out worse in the end because of it. TL;DR: some more relatable to a real-life depiction of a person doesn't necessitate a good story to be written from it
While that's true on the surface, having a story be relatable just means it can be understood on some personal level.
@@BJGvideosThat still doesn't make it a good story
As some other comments said, I'm surprised there was no mention about how Anime Lusamine's portrayal could have effected how they wanted USUM Lusamine to be or how TPC will more often use USUM over SM in alternative media or other spinoffs like Pokemon Masters so that it's easier to include stuff such as Lusamine and Guzma or Rainbow Rocket Giovanni.
The anime version of her is the absolute worst version of her honestly, honestly she might as well be a different character entirely, that's how bad she is there. I hate how people defend SM and her iteration in that anime
I feel like USUM Lusamine shouldn't be directly compared to SM Lusamine and should be looked at as two different characters, not as the same character in two different takes of the same story. Also, something a lot of people miss is that it's heavily implied that both versions of Lusamine were already under the effects of Nihilego venom. And before anyone tries to argue "bUt ThAt JuSt ReMoVeS sOmEoNe'S iNhIbItIoNs, LuSaMiNe Is StIlL a PsYcHo", give THIS some thought - have YOU ever had the urge to do something, but decided against it because you felt it would be the wrong thing to do? Your own personal moral code is fundamentally an inhibition. So, no, Lusamine wasn't her true self under the effects of the venom, she was _a TWISTED and AMORAL version_ of her true self under those effects. She probably still wasn't the best parent, even the nicest version of her from the anime is neglectful and yet at the same time an overprotective perfectionist, and pre-venom Lusamine from both games was probably still a control freak with mixed up priorities. But she wouldn't have gone to the extremes she did under the effects of the venom. And no, Guzma does not refute this. He wasn't exposed to nearly as big of a dose of the venom. Plus, he's, well... a little nuts himself, in the same sort of "no inhibitions" way. Not to anywhere near the same degree, but you can see how he just barges around like he owns the place and doesn't give a shit about the consequences during the game's story. He even has his own little hoarding obsession - in this case, hoarding Buginium Z crystals.
She still had the ability to make her own decisions though
@@BJGvideos But her ability to make those decisions in a rational manner was severely impaired. It doesn't absolve her from them but it doesn't mean she would have made those decisions without the effects of the venom either.
I prefer the concept of USUM. The fact that Lusamine is just a bad person with narcissistic personality makes it way more real than any toxin explanation. Making her more real means that she is more relatable and therefore the story connects with more people. However, I think the real problem is that they cut all of Lilys character arch. Seeing her stand up to her mom in the USUM versions would’ve hit harder, as well as the story she tells us in SM being gone. Those would’ve given her a complete character arch and gotten us to empathize more with. However in USUM they throw Lily off the side and make the battle with Necrozma de focus. In the end I believe USUM could’ve told a better story but sidetracked character moments in favor of a big boss battle.
Yes. it did. Unquestionably it did. It just forgives her, it refuses to hold her accountable for the abuse she subjected her children to. I wish Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon had been sequels so we could see how Lillie, Gladion, and Lusamine's relationship repairs and develops.
I like to think that Necrozma is the main villain in Us/Um and Lusa is just a side villain just like Guzma
Hmm, you have a point! That's probably what they were going for, but I really think they could've done it in a better way. Or heck, just have two main villains.
Necrozma is a force of nature rather than a villain.
Nobody likes it when the character built up to be the main villain is displaced by something bigger and scarier (trust me) without the same build up.
I think they should’ve made a major story expansion and found a way to give a definitive explanation for lusamine’s abuse and let necrozma be the bigger villain.
i wonder if Rainbow Rocket also played a part in it? gamefreak said 'ok too much villainy, lusamine give some to them' lol
Did the Ultra games mention if Lusamine was present during Mao's disappearance? I know that there was a scene where Mao briefly showed up but Lusamine didn't recognize him nor did he. not only that but you don't find Necrozma in Sun and Moon until the post game so it's likely it never escaped until you become the champion while the Ultra games had Necrozma escape earlier and forced the Ultra patrol to warn Lusamine alongside the main cast.
Ultra games don't mention it as far as I'm aware. Even in SM, it's only mentioned by Gladion at the end, and he's gone in USUM. And your theory about why Necrozma was never an issue in S/M is actually pretty cool! I still have no idea why it wouldn't steal the light anyway after getting there but maybe Nebby is the only source of the light and thus it couldn't get it anymore. Which in turn makes USUM have a hilariously easy solution to its whole issue (master balling nebby). heh
@@prezmer I suppose so because when I found Necrozma there was no information other than "an unidentified UB? That's ridiculous" yet it became main focus for the second half of USUM. It definitely played with the multiverse and parallel universe theory with a lot of "what if" scenarios, the biggest one being Rainbow Rocket which answered "what if the evil teams from past games won?" in the post game. I only asked if Lusamine was present in incidents in both SM and USUM because it could've done the "what if she got obsessive/defensive towards the UB?". She still turned out the same in both ways, wicked, neglectful of her family, and selfish all the same but what I think USUM does is prevent Lusamine from traumatizing Lillie more than SM Lusamine. She's still not a good person but I can understand people wanting her to have some form of redemption through consequences. Also as a side note, I think Lillie's outfit has no correlation to Nhilego's design other than coincidence unless you count the Adventures manga where Lillie is transformed into Nhilego from a different universe, the shiny form also supports that with the blue colors being swapped for yellow like Lillie's hair.
The way I see it, if you read not just the Pokedex but also the dialogue Wicke has for Nihilego after you catch it in OG SuMo's postgame, Nihilego does not itself have a personality or goals (Nihil- -ego literally meaning "lack of self", which feels really weird to me to be the name given to the creature. This thing appears from an alternate dimension and you manage to correctly name it after the fact it doesn't have a self? How did you know it wasn't sapient or even sentient? "Venomenon" makes way more sense as an initial name - it's poisonous and its entry into our world is an oddity.). Instead, its neurotoxin merely removes a person's inhibitions (which you already mentioned in the video) and also enhances their existing personality traits. This means that OG SuMo Lusamine is not under the affects of mind-altering drugs, she was always like this, just to a smaller degree. Also, if I remember correctly, Giovanni in the Rainbow Rocket epilogue mentions that Lusamine *was* infected with the neurotoxins in the USUM continuity, it's just directed in a way to get her to further his goals of multiversal conquest, rather than at "let me live with my pretties forever". As for the question of "does it matter?" under normal circumstances, I would probably agree with you - the existence of USUM does not take away from the fact that SuMo still came out, the Pokemon multiverse being canon (as finally officially confirmed in these games. Yes, Zinnia mentioned it in ORAS but only as a theoretical, as a justification for why throwing an incoming astroid into a portal with no knowledge of where the other end of that portal leads is a bad idea) means that *both* versions of Lusamine are canon, and people like me who want to keep the unhinged Lusamine and see Lillie's story as a way to heal from their own parental abuse trauma, can do so. But at the same time, the Pokémon Company themselves like acting as if USUM Lusamine is the only one that matters. She's the only one who shows up in crossovers like Masters, despite that game literally having other universes as a justification for allowing both genders of a game's protagonist pair to exist simultaneously even for games where the other gender isn't used as a rival, and also despite that game allowing players to use much-more-overtly-evil villains like Ghetsis and Lysandre. And so it does feel, to those of us that prefer the original Lusamine due to the more direct way the game shows her abusiveness and comeuppance, that TPC is ignoring our version of the villainess just because she's not the most-recent version. I actually largely agree with your changes to USUM's story, but I guess I don't really care about Lusamine getting redemption as much as I care about Lillie getting closure. Much like your fix, Lusamine betrays the Ultra Recon Squad in order to use their research to find Nihilego rather than face off against Necrozma. However, I feel like once we get to the Alter on Poni Island, instead of us going through the Motherbeast arc, instead, Guzma falls out of the portal and says that Lusamine went missing before he reached Ultra Megalopolis. You deal with Necrozma first, and continue USUM's story as normal, and only after meeting Lillie in front of the bridge where you two first met and catching Nebby (which she will now only call you about this after you catch Necrozma on the Pokémon League mountain), does she mention that her mother is still missing in Ultra Space and she at least wants to find her. The Motherbeast arc happens as normal, and then she goes to Kanto, with either Lillie or Gladion as her supervisor depending on certain dialogue choices the player made. This does mean that Motherbeast can be postgame depending on when the player decides to catch Necrozma, and if it is postgame, then Rainbow Rocket won't happen until after the Motherbeast arc.
Honestly I wished Ultra Sun/Moon were sequels like Black/White 2. It would helped with Lusamine‘s change in personality if this was Lusamine 3 to 5 years from the events of Sun/Moon after she was able to heal from her trauma. But also keep the fact that she was abusive towards Lillie and Gladion but 3 to 5 years in the future she’s healed enough for her children to start to want to have a relationship with her again. I don’t know who the evil team in this rewrite would be but maybe the Ultra Recon Squad? Or at least that in this rewrite the Ultra Recon Squad are a rebel faction against the evil team. And for the purposes of this rewrite the evil team would be the people of Ultra Megalopolis who want to steal the light of other worlds so that Ultra Megalopolis could get its light back. (For this rewrite to happen a lot of lore would have to change but since lore wise this rewrite of Ultra Sun/Moon takes place 3 to 5 years after Sun/Moon I think it could be possible to change some of the lore of Ultra Megalopolis.)
I grew up with abusive parents due to substance abuse destroying their minds, so I absolutely refused to play Ultra Sun and Moon when I heard they changed Lusamine's story.
Judging by the comments I feel I may be the odd one out saying I like Ultra's outcome over the original. I mean Lily and Lusamine don't vanish from the game completely, and there is a chance that Lusamine would shimmy her hips up the champion throne while you're sitting there to challenge *you* for *your* title. Sure we didn't scary evil jellyfish mom but having played both versions I find it freaking awesome to actually battle Lusamine is something that's actually personal for the player. She's coming up to battle you, that means *she* took on the elite 4 with her own team, No Ultra beast or some kind of ultra beast power. And or the Battle Tree, you can team up with Lily, And here's my question, people hate Ultra Lusamine but loved Lusamine in the anime? Maybe it's because she was a mix of both versions, I dunno personal anime Lusamine being a smother mother is down right hilarious to me. I do hope we see her and Wicke again in future games.
This is why DLC > Third version. Imagine if all the Necrozma stuff was in DLC. We would have had the best of both worlds.
I think it would be nice to see lusamine use the ultra recon squad to get to nihilego only to in the process release necrozma. In my version id have the lunala/solgaleo who helps save lusamine is owned by the recon squad so that when we return to our world we are met with nebby fighting necrozma and becoming possessed that way we are expecting an relief as we leave ultra space only to be shoved into a bigger crisis, from there the fight with necrozma will go as normal and the ending is a mix between the two. Lusamine could show us that she is obsessed with nihilego whilst clearly trying to manipulate the recon squad into believing she is helping them with something, this changes the story enough to be considered new whilst not changing conflicting with sm. Id also like to see lusamine have a heart to heart with lillie after the whole ordeal or maybe as she realises she messed up while necrozma fights nebby. I thibk the story could have been cool as a third game with the player choosing which flute to use determining if lunala or solgeleo is owned by the recon squad or evolves from nebby in the story.
Imagine if all the animes were connected and ash actually grew as a character
Still holding out hope that one day we'll get a grown up version of Ash in the new anime...
they are and he does though, what are you talking about?
Necrozma doesn't evolve It form Changes
Exactly .
usum destroyed Lillie's character arc and the story didnt even feel cohesive any more. plus the whole ending sequence with lillie and the player was removed and her giving you her clefairy doll and all that. usum cut so much
I feel like it makes more sense that they're both the same situation but in different universes where in sm Lusamine is in love with the ultra beasts and the neuro toxins enhanced that and un usum she hated the ultra beasts and the neuro toxins enhanced that.
I NEVER CONNECTED MOHN FROM THE MAIN STORY AND MOHN FROM POKE PELAGO OH MY GOD
Alchoholic rich mom with exotic pets ruins local ecosystem
ultra necrosma and dawn wings necrosma is 2 of my favorite pokemon
I loved lillie as a kid but when I got older it turned out it’s because I related to her
I think both are failed attempts at trying to make a female villain, by 'being a woman. She is either the victim of an alien, or a victim of Rainbow Rocket. She ends up getting rid of her kids to try to find her husband, in one world, but finds him in one, but leaves him. Any villainy/character development is wiped clean, aside from 'I'm a leader of a big company. Thankfully the whole family gets put back together in the anime. All villains have been watered down more and more after gen 6.
Short awnser:Yes.
Allegory for loss and dangerous coping through substance.
short answer is yes
best tl;dr ever
You misunderstand the point then USUM is a different universe/timeline The whole point is that every version of the sun and moon story has a different take on her. The manga version is far more evil then the SM games. the anime version is a flipped version where she is Overbearing instead.
I remember as a little kid playing Moon I much preferred the Ultra version of Lusamine, just because I felt bad for Lillie. However, now looking at both versions of the character from a storytelling perspective, I can confidently say that I believe the original Lusamine to be a much stronger character.
those words i would have thought lillie would slap her mother for that 16:08
i mean yeah USUM took away alot of what made Lusamine a evil team leader and made her basically trying to be a hero but at the same time they made hau a way better rival and actually making him basically champion and necrozma actually isnt like a last minute thing. necrozma was just oh another new pokemon that has no ties to sun and moon and was just there, while USUM gave it an actually lore that it wants to eat all of alola light and bring darkness to the world.
Without watching the video, the answer is yes. Sun and Moon genuinely surprised me with it's story, which was leagues better than any other main line game's before it. Then ultra sun and moon came out and remixed/changed it, poorly
She's technically not supposed to be the Villain She's just an Apathetic Narcissist who only cares about her work on the Wormholes in the original In USUM her goal is to Stop the taking of Alola's light The real Villain of the Alola games is Faba May I remind you, Lusamine didn't let Rainbow Rocket take over her Artificial Island Faba did USUM doesn't even De-canonize anything It's just an alternate timeline every thing else is meant to play out the same way Regardless. Lusamine isn't a Villain she's a Narcissistic idiot
Any child abuser is a villain.
think they could easily fix the plot of USUM by not showing the URS until partway through the game. maybe Lusamine being aware of Nihilego's toxins captures one when nebby is forcibly used to open a portal into ultra space. the Ultra Recon Squad (also they'd be aware of Nihilego's toxin was giving her a sustained treatment, which stops) sees that she's gone off the deep end that they plan to kidnap lillie to use her as a bargaining chip for Cosmoem. doing the ritual at the altar of the sunne/moon, in the assumption that it'll bring the Light of Alola to replenish the energy of their world. maybe something like the origin tale of the Blinding One being lost with time and simply conflated the box legend they don't have as being more major than they appear. Necrozma comes out of slumbering and lunges towards the URS, but Lusamine invokes the mother beast form due to the z-crystals she had on her person overly reacting to her emotional state+energy flowing from the ultra wormholes. insert some cutscene where she tries to beat necrozma down but gets smacked. Lillie cries out and invokes nebby's evolution. *then* the assimilation scene occurs. the Ultra Megalopolos scene occurs sometime later with the URS horrified that Necrozma and the Blinding One was one and the same. they wouldn't have devised interdimensional technology for a few thousand years. with portals open, having it there would result in the anhilation of all realities' energy. Maybe an aftergame plot thread reveals that the Ultra Recon Squad are the survivors of the dragonid people of their reality, and that initially they were going to steal the energy of Alola to bring theirs back, but became horrified that they were repeating the acts of their ancestors. the whole thing with Necrozma brings their spark back. however Necrozma is not the Blinding One, but are actually a species of pokemon derived from the blinding one either irradiating minerals, or fragments of its body as it dies (it'd explain the SM one being millions of years old. and in stasis due to lack of light. maybe space-time warped?). kinda like the Original Dragon. it'd be vaguely alluded to that they sent two teams to other realities (US and UM). but that they're also backing a dimension as an interdimensional police force to deal with Rainbow Rocket!Giovanni. (ORAS/SM Looker+Emerald Anabel).
No The Plot Was Fine & Ultra Necrozma Is The GOD OF EVERYTHING !!! 👑
I have never played sun and moon or the ultra versions but from what i have just seen, the aether foundation sounds like a horror game daycare, the place looks so beautiful and the owner acts so nice, but then you find out the truth about the place, they torture pokemon (cosmog) and the owner of the place is pyschotic,
Most of the employees are genuine in wanting to help pokemon... ...MOST of them.
@@BJGvideos oh
@@BJGvideos owner is still pyschotic though
i never was abused as a kid but i preferred the original lusamine and it could have been saved if necrozma did fuse with nebby and we needed to borrow the legendary for the ultra warp ride to chase him down and when we get there lusamine was already there to stop us then fuses with nihilego we beat her and lillie stays with lusamine after she comes to her senses and we go and try to save nebby
it did not ruined her dude, oras confirmed alternate reallities and sun and moon and the ultras confirmed it, those are diffrent versions of lusamine, so they are diffrent it's like in marvel or dc where diffrent versions of a character act diffrent from the other some are evils, others good etc. maybe she was possed in the first ones but she could just be a really diffrent cersion of her on ultra's you know.
The Ultra games should have been sequels. Not an alternate story.
"sorry about the inconsistent frames in the video" that's because you're playing on an emulator, that isn't the fault of the devs, Citra while way better than it used to be is still not perfect when it comes to emulation so there's still slowdown and lag.
sun/moon and usum take the same story but focus on different characters,sun/moon is lillies and lusamines story
wasnt there like a comic story for this game i rember having a story book that had this games antagonist as the antagonist in the book or maybe it was a dream?
I think Pokemon Adventures is the only one who's done this story. Is that the one you mean?
@@BJGvideos i think im not really sure but ill look it up and see
She wouldn't be villian more so a victom due to the nerotoxins, I pefer USUM due to giving her closure there with Mohn. But it isn't to abuse your children.
I prefer the Original versions of Sun and Moon because of the story.
Nihilego necrozma Guzzlord and Xurkitree are my favourite ultra beasts
While this was a good vid, I feel that you could have done much better in representing both sides; at the start of the vid, you've already biased most viewers
I appreciate the constructive criticism! It's really hard to hide my opinion, which as I started writing the script was indeed that Lusamine was ruined. I only figured there even was another side as I was researching. My focus then shifted to raising a discussion, but yeah, it was still a challenge to try to look at it objectively when I felt strongly about one of the positions. I'll keep trying to improve on this issue for future videos. Thank you!
USUM doesn't even have to be Played it's a different Timeline SM is the Unaltered Timeline The Alteration in the timeline is that the Ultra Recon came out Lusamine was never meant to be an actual Villain She's just mentally broken Again, She even made Lillie DRESS up to look like an Ultra Beast
She's a child abuser. That alone makes her a villain.
The actual ending to USUM isn't even after you reach the Credits either It's the RR episode that's the "True Ending" to the Ultra story
My way to beat ultra necrozma is quick claw haunter with destiny bond
I’m confused on why lusamine in sun and moon instantly just changes at the end.
Nihilego poison
No matter what, neither game Lusamine has anything on anime Lusamine. Anime Lusamine is so well written and stays on top always 😤, one of the many reasons SM anime is the best.