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STL file for the devious Pythagoras cup: www.thingiverse.com/thing:123252
Watch the whole video of the greedy cup emptying in a vacuum: • How To Stop The Greedy...
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If anyone else was curious why the tube in the devious cup has to go all the way around the edge before it goes back down, it's to help prevent a moderately filled cup from draining when tilted.
Thanks.
hmm
@@JaisimhaAllalghatta agreed with the Hmm, here.. xD
What if you try to mix up the drink by moving it in a circle? Would that drain it?
But you can still drain it accidentally by swirling the content around like a wine connoiseur..
Perhaps Pythagoras could make it like the Devious cup but put the center piece as a warning of "don't go past this point".
I think handing some a cup then calling them greedy for using it is kinda a jerk move, so warning them what will happen is at least a little better
@@pinkliongaming8769 its commonly understood that when pooring wine, you dont full the glass all the way. I dont think something like this was intended for cheap drinks like water.
Or add a fill line like in cup ramen packages
@@jacobhargiss3839 Maybe YOU don't fill the wine glass all the way, because that's a modern hoity toity idea about manners.. Throughout history, that has not been the case. Believe it or not, but people usually make cups intending for them to be used for most of its capacity, not making a gallon jug that you're meant to sip ounces out of. The only reason Pythagoras and others of his time were against "greedy wine drinking" was because they were philosophers, meant to embody wisdom and deep thinking. Which is difficult to do while absolutely plastered. This was not a widespread custom for most common people in Greece at the time, nor elsewhere
@@trustytrest Im not saying it was the norm, but it is the norm now, hence why we dont need the thing in the middle as a warning.
I love how this guy always finds a way to involve his vacuum box in almost every video he made.
Imagine having a vacuum box and not flex with it
His wife said "don't buy this piece of junk, you'll never use it", so now he uses it on every video just to prove her wrong
"ALMOST" vacuum box, judging by the bubbles in the blue liquid... That makes me to doubt about the siphon explanation
@@AlejAndro-zg7bz yea you can see on the gauge though that he was at a 29.5" vacuum which is a near complete vacuum, far too low for the pressure of the box's atmosphere to be particularly relevant
I have had a syphon explained to me like 12 times by friends, parents and teachers and it only sticks for like 3 seconds... but after watching this video with helpful visuals and thoughtful explanations I can comfortably say and I'm pretty sure it's devil magic.
equalization of pressure. Same reason opening the door with a storm outside yanks it out of your hand.
@@Laeiryn Eh, no, that isn't the same thing at all.
Yeah, all that talk about equalizing atmospheric pressure is so unhelpful, don't listen to that. No, the way it ACTUALLY works is way more complicated. Basically the gist of this video.
Şaytan deceiving us
You're an idiot if you think that's an equivalent comparison. @@Laeiryn
My favorite part of the greedy cup is that it can be defeated by just putting a finger over the hole. If you start out with your finger over the hole before filling it, the air pressure keeps the wine out. If you realize too late and fill your cup too full, you just plug it. I've spilled enough wine on myself over the years that this wouldn't even phase me.
It's not my lowest point, but surely close
Make the sides of the bottom lower than the exit point, thus making it incredibly uncomfortable to hold the hole closed.
Or, split the exit into two exits. I think it'll still work, but closing 2 holes is harder than one.
@@koderamerikaner5147 Or a dozen, as long as you're 3D printing it already.
Or just drink from the bottom
I've made Pythagoras coffee mug few years ago on 3d printer. The hole was hidden under the groove near the bottom. Colleagues were pissed
shit id be pissed too if all i wanted was a full cup of coffee only to have it drain onto my shoes
😂request for a link to the print file please
@@kylanacus2407 ben
I should get that for my brother, always drinking coffee in the middle of the night when he doesn’t need it.
christmas present for your mother in law?
The new cup is pretty good but it could be a lot better. hide the hole at the bottom by instead spreading it out as a thin ring at the base of the cup, with a slight overhang to hide it from view when viewed from above, and make the glass a little taller and more narrow so that you limit the angle that you can look down into the cup with. then you really are unlikely to notice it has a hole in it
Kind of like a reverse wow cup (a special type of sippy cup)
If you can do blender or any 3d modeling please do. Release the files.
Or it could have like a thin ridge in a ring around a slightly raised bottom that hides tiny holes underneath. So when you look in the cup you just see a flat bottom. You would still figure it out under closer inspection but it wouldn't immediately obvious when looking straight down into the cup. a bit like a more disguised version of some shower drains that appear to just have a large silver disc which you step on to open or close the drain.
You can easily make it with normal pottery and ceramic if you embed a small piece of copper or steel tube inside, bent in the right way. Disguise the hole inside at the bottom of the container as much as possible, maybe with the glaze coloring or some fancy shape, and people will never guess.
Or just using a solid wax (or something similar that has a low melting temperature) "tube", and melting the wax out afterwards.
Glad to know that Pythagoras never thought of just smaller cups
He probably did he just wanted to punish greedy people
@@Finn_the_Cat The idea that it's somehow "greedy" to fill up your cup fully is laughable
@@getgle i mean wine did used to be hella expensive. And maybe Pythagoras just knew a lot of assholes who did shit maliciously
@@getgle as a wine steward let me give you a little insight into even today's standards of pouring wine. Wine changes when exposed to air that's why wine, something that is aged for years, can still go bad. All of this is a balancing act when presenting and drinking wine, reds tend to need to be aerated so you usually pour the wine into a larger container called a carafe so it can "breathe" when poured into a wine glass specifically made for red you pour it at the largest part of the glass as the rest of the red wine glass is designed to prevent that breathing from continuing (since you let it breathe). Even in today's standards pouring past that point is a clear indicator of you being greedy, or more appropriately an alcoholic. White wine glasses are designed to let it breathe slowly over time, resulting in wider glasses, if you pour too much it will aerate too much and start going off in your cup. Wine glasses have been designed for hundreds of years to only be filled about halfway up, and generally speaking the quality of the wine you're drinking diminishes if you fill past that point. The "greedy" cup lets you fill well past the line you should fill a wine glass up to so it's not about making smaller cups, it's about the symbolism filling a glass high stands for. These days we don't care about fill heights, especially on white wines, since refrigeration has changed the game so wine fill level has become more about traditions than actual standards, a lot of restaurants that charge per glass of a wine will "overfill" them because the small perception of getting more makes the overpriced grape juice a sense of "value" that keeps customers coming back. If you go to a restaurant that will ONLY sell you wine by the bottle, you'll see them pour your wine around the "widest" part of the glass and stop most of the time... though the exact fill point is something wine sommeliers will probably argue about.
Keep in mind at a party where you would pour your own wine, nobody's really stopping you from getting refills, and somebody drinking 3 glasses of wine wasn't really the target of a cup like this, smaller cups would just make people hang around the carafe like it's the water cooler.
Easily done with a wax form for the channel, then mold clay around that. Dry it, bake out the wax, then fire as normal- all feasible with 500BC technology.
It was used in bronze age to make small bronze statues, it's cool
Yes. But it would also be very thick and heavy cup. You could design it with just some parts being thicker than usual, and hide it as ornaments, but I'm not sure if it would be light enough anyway, and if centre of gravity would shift noticeably.
Was gonna say something similar, one could even make bits at a time or even make the tubing in-line or the wax method you mentioned, the other would be salt for the bronze/brass and then dissolved out after... Making a glass tube and then embedding into two stacked glasses or have 3x glasses with a lip on the inner one and a channel.... plenty of ways that even the Egyptians could've done.... after all, the Egyptians didn't "need aliens" to know how to use ropes, pulleys and mix in a bit of sand with copper strips to saw granite.
The channel doesn't need to go all around, it could go up and down through the handle.
It also doesn’t have to be round, it can be a flattened tunnel.
Please remember that 3D printed objects are not foodsafe
Stark
Depends on what filament use
I think that actually depends on the setup you use.
I always kind of figured siphons worked by way of gravity and the fact that water wants to run downhill. Since the outlet of the hose, tube or whatever has to be lower than the level of the body of water you are siphoning from, that made the most sense to me. Give water a path to go downhill and that's where it will go. As far as how it can go up and over the edge of a container, I would say that has to do with momentum. In order for a siphon to work, the outlet has to be lower than the level of the water which gives it the momentum to make it up over the edge. This is neat! Having played with siphons since I was a kid, it is interesting to see the scientific explanations. Making the walls thin and putting the siphon in the handle of a mug would be even more elegant for this. Actually usable. Also to make it really devious, make the hole at the bottom such that it can't be plugged with a finger.
cool but I ain’t reading allat
This cup is still manufacturable through traditional subtractive manufacturing, although probably not as one solid piece. You would need to make three separate pieces and then assemble them together, but with good enough machining, you can still make it look like it's one solid piece once it's assembled.
Repost cause I am devious too: They could have made this type of complex devious cup quite easily. Make a wax bar in the shape of the channel, add clay to cover and shape the cup. Dry it. Heat it to melt the wax out of the dried clay and go forward with firing it to make it into a ceramic. Lost wax method to the max.
@@dragoscoco2173 Oh yeah true, I was referring to machining it though
@@OceanBagel It surely can be done by machining, and it would look great too. In a way 3D printing is mentioned in the video to plug the sponsor.
@@dragoscoco2173 Lost wax is smart! I was thinking make a pipe out of another material (metals are easy to work) and then embed it into a clay pot or something, but your technique would be easier
It would also not be hard to make using the original additive manufacturing method: clay.
If someone ever handed me a 3D printed cup, I would immediately think "this is devious" Thanks everyone, I could not have imagined this
absolute delinquent cup
Make it from clay, embedding a tube inside that will burn away when firing. String or even a plastic tube might work.
If it was done by someone who was a good 3DP out of a material that hides layer lines well *cough* wood PLA(which you can sand and even varnish) it's possible to not know
@@frojojo5717 I'd use a wax string, that should be easier to handle than a hollow tube. Make outside shell, apply the wax, apply inner coat, dry, burn.
Just check for the hole under the cup and cover it with your finger if it exists.
What wasn't mentioned clearly is one of the most important contributing factors to how a syphon works which is vacuum. Gravity starts it off by pulling down on the liquid in the exit pipe but it is vacuum which draws the liquid up the entry side of the pipe. This is why to start a syphon off you have to suck on the exit end of the pipe to draw enough liquid for the gravity to get a purchase on it and start it moving. So the way the Pye' cup works is the overflowing liquid fills up the space between the top of the down tube and the walls of the outer tube thus sealing the out chamber, as it goes down the exit tube pulled by gravity, it starts of the syphon by creating a vacuum in the exit tube and the now connected by seal entry tube. Because the main bowl is higher than the end of the exit tube there is sufficient weight in the liquid going out to out weigh the smaller amount of liquid being pulled up by the vacuum enabling the cup to be fully emptied. If the end of exit tube was higher than the bottom of the recepticle then there would not be enough weight in the exiting liquid to overcome the gravity of the entering liquid so one would cancel the other and liquid would just sit in both tubes going nowhere. You can test this with two containers and flexible a tube. Fill one with liquid and place one end of the tube it (I know, basic syphoning, but just in case there are some people who have never done this) then suck on the other end of the tube (only use a drinkable liquid for this as you will probably ingest some) as soon as the liquid starts to run into your mouth hold the end of the tube lower than the glass, say off the edge of a table, into the other container, it will run freely, but as soon as you lift the end of the exit tube to near the height of the upper glass or container, the flow will slow and as you lift higher and eventually stop. If there is still enough liquid in the exit side of the pipe and you lower it back to the other container it will self start, if there is not enough liquid in the exit side to out weigh the liquid in the entry side it will not self start. Added to these factors though (gravity and vacuum) as mentioned in the video, you also have surface tension and friction which could effect how readily the syphoning process will self start depending on the size of the tube, type of liquid such as viscocity and strength of surface tension. Hope this helps a little.
1:17 a cup urinating
💀💀💀💀⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️
Let’s acknowledge James’s ability to Macguyver anything in a vacuum chamber! Genius explanations of the siphon effect! I did not realize it was a combination of effects!
❓Ok, he said that "the siphon effect occurs because of a *combination* *of* *effects* , (ie. the effect of vacuum PLUS the surface tension effect). That confuses me, because the surface tension effect on siphoning _should_ technically cease to exist when an air pocket is introduced into the system, because in order for surface tension to have any effect on siphoning, you'd need an unbroken stream of liquid.. Introducing an air pocket in the middle of the siphoning stream is the equivalent of removing links in the middle of a continuous chain. When you pull on a chain with missing links, you won't have any effect on the back end of the chain that's been separated by the missing links. Same is true with a stream of water inside a closed siphon system that's separated by an air pocket. Once you've added an air pocket in the middle of the siphon steam, surface tension no longer has any effect on the liquid in the back half of the stream. Therefore, if the liquid in the back half of the stream continues to siphon, it's NOT because of any surface tension effect.
surface tension applies to the two individual groups of water
@@HighlanderNorth1 He never demonstrated that it works in a vacuum AND having gaps in the stream of liquid. (air pockets/vacuum pockets???) The sample with the empty bottle in between was in normal air pressure. I would be surprised if it would work with gaps in a vacuum. But maybe there is a third effect in play. Liquid helium and mercury also can escape a flask because a tiny layer of the material creeps onto the glass and forms a chemically weak bonded chain. I don't know how that works exactly and what the flow rate would be.
@@HighlanderNorth1 I think the way you should understand it is he demonstrated that surface tension can make it work in a vacuum if it is unbroken (his vacuum chamber demonstration) and atmoshperic pressure can make it work when there's no surface tension (the broken flow demonstration). This would suggest that in a normal environment all the effects work together and contribute to moving the water.
Nobody found it suspicious that his vacuum contained liquid water that wasnt even boiling?
At the risk of stating the obvious... if you simply whack a handle on the cup, it's the perfect shape to hide the plumbing inside... which means you no longer need to have "suspiciously thick" walls on your cup. I've got a 3D printer and I've made this. Pity I cant post photos in the comments, coz you might like it. Anyway, I call it the "Pythagorean Mug". (While we're on the topic... that single hole in the bottom is a design-flaw, coz people quickly look under the cup, understand what is happening, and put their finger over it. What you really want is, inside the base of the cup, you split the flow into six different pipes, and have them split up and drain out from around the edges of the base, instead of one hole in the middle. This results in your victims hilariously trying to plug the leak with their fingers, but quickly running out of fingers, with the liquid spilling up their sleeves for maximum annoyment.)
good job, the best comments usually go unnoticed
Can you share the photos?
upload the pic somewhere and give us the links, man!
Did you need supports when you printed it?
@@bill447 Yep. In a big way. I'm printing with resin, so suction forces are a big problem. Alas, the design of the Pythagorean mug means it's literally impossible to eliminate ALL suction-force. All you can do is minimize it... amd provide lots of support to counter-act it. Basically, I was positioning my cup on it's side with the handle straight facing up (or perhaps tilted 15 degrees to either side.) (When I say "up", I mean the handle should be pointing AWAY from the printer-base-plate.) THEN I tilt the cup forwards another 20 degrees, so that the open end of the cup faces slightly more towards the printer-base-plate than the base of the cup. This is the optimum print angle I've found (although perhaps there's a better option that I missed.) It might be an idea to attempt printing your cup at 50% size and on a few different angles, just to see what works best for you. That's what I did initially. (I mentioned in a previous post that you can already find a few Pythagorean Mug designs at the thingiverse website... but for reasons unknown that comment has been censored. [facepalm] I'm still perfecting my design and haven't made it public yet, so if you don't want to wait for me, have a search on thingiverse. There's some nice examples there. And that's where I'll eventually post my design anyway.)
It starts with gravity pulling the liquid down from the top of the bend of the siphon. Once that starts the movement, the moving liquid has a lower pressure than the stationary liquid (Bernoulli's Principle) and the higher pressure/stationary liquid moves into the lower pressure/moving liquid area. It then keeps moving and falls out the other end of the siphon. More liquid moving through the siphon keeps Bernoulli's Principle going until you run out of liquid in the cup. I'm pretty sure people made much more complex things in the past without 3D printers. What they didn't have, was a 3D printer sponsor. Thank you, comrade Action Lab, very cool. I will prank US and South officials with these
The driver for water flow is (total) head potential, which is made up of an elevation component and a pressure component (velocity head is of second order importance). If elevation head and pressure head are expressed in the same units e.g. metres of elevation and metres of water (or feet, cm etc) , then pressure increases by depth in a stationary water body, (standard cup) but the total head remains constant since elevation decreases, so water does not flow. Put a hole in the bottom of a cup then the pressure outside the hole is zero (or at least atmospheric) and there is a head difference causing the water to flow out of the cup. In a syphon the head is lower at one end than the other, causing the water to flow in the same way as through a hole because the head gradient is maintained in the tube. A syphon only works if the tube can maintain suction, generally for water the limit of suction is about 10m although in practice (e.g. a suction pump) the limit is lower. The vessel containing air is sealed therefore suction is maintained and the syphon continues to work as the total head decreases in the direction of flow either side of the air vessel. The increased elevation head at the jet is compensated for by the negative pressure head in the air chamber. Put a hole in the air chamber and the suction pressure will be lost and the syphon will break down. So no magic and no Bernoulli's Principle required.
Be careful! 3D printed stuff often isn't entirely food safe It may be at first, but prints are often porous, and thus difficult to clean
And when you wash it it'll probably work like your being greedy
@@Jcktmnbut it would clean the “don’t be greedy” tube
- You can ask a manufacturer if their filament is food safe - *DO NOT* use a steel extruder head, those often contain lead - annel the prints in the oven (after you made sure they are clean) - chemically smooth the microscopeic pores (then clean again) - always always always *ALWAYS* clean out the prints after each use Do it even if you just use a print to drink water just to get into the habit
You could easily have made that cup with clay and a tin wire, simply wait for the cup to dry and fire it and all the tin will melt out. It might even be easier than making the original. They probably would have used lead for it's abundancy.
Wax.
@@Dragosmom. Bruh, the Google translate said Wax = Something, literally that word.
@@shadydaemon4178it's somalian
I was going to ask if it's necessary. Though, I wouldn't be surprised if when you get it hot enough to melt metal, the clay melts as well. Maybe make the siphon first, then put clay around it?
@@Anonymous-df8it Depends on the metal. But you could use many things that would work, possibly even wood.
In essence: the illustrated „gravity-chain“ does all the tricks simultaneously. As soon as the longer downwards pipe segment contains more water mass than the upwards pipe segment it pulls the remaining water as the reservoir exercises continuous gravitational pressure on the whole system of communicating vessels (reservoir + upwards pipe + downwards pipe).
Forgot about the pressure generated by displacement. As molecules of fluid flow in any direction, the previous location forms a slight temporary negative pressure, encouraging anything "behind" it to move it that same direction. One thing I would like to see is if a sideways pythagorean cup worked in a vacuum- a lid on its top and a hole drilled into the side (now the top) to add liquid. I'd assume it would not work due to an air bubble blockage, but...? Actually, now that I think about it, the chain analogy still works. It's just that both air and water are fluid. Air molecules still move towards displacement, so that's why your example still works.
It's definitely possible to manufacture the Devious Cup with classical metal working methods. The cup walls can be made in 2 parts, and the hidden path can be a set of thin curved metal tubes in between the two walls.
I was thinking similar, but you could put the metal tube into a mould and cast a cup around it
Or you could mold clay around hard wax, which would burn away during the heating process.
@@vorshack8968 literally came to the comments for this idea, with clay it should be pretty easy, could even be made with a bit of rope through the walls, that would also be able to be burnt out of it. It'd take skill, of course, but we already know the Greeks were pretty skilled with earthenware
Do it and upload on KZhead or I don't believe you.
Yeah but classical metal working methods did not sponsor this video...
I didn’t know the standard narrative for the physics of syphoning but I always pictured it like your chain explanation. This was interesting 👍
I'm not a physists but I knew it would work in a vacuum and always thought of it like the chain effect. The open bottle one would still work because as the liquid drains it pulls a vacuum which in turn pulls the water in the tube
yes finding words to specify what we already know mentally without the verbal informative confusion is wonderful thank you for reeducating us again anyways neat cup.
Instead of a straight hole in the bottom, could you build into the model an angled hole? so it looks solid when viewing from above, or even at 45 degrees. I'm thinking something like a roof overhang or soffet, if that makes sense.
Just printed one at 200% so about 155mm (a little over 6” tall). My plan is to use it for a Christmas Party game where each person has to sit under the cup and add an ounce of water before the next person’s turn. Should be fun: to see who gets doused:)
Thats fun. Make it a big bool and have everyone stand under and drink it once it starts emptying
Wait then wouldn’t there be not probability of getting doused due to the ounces will fill the bowl at a certain term each time, unless the amount of initial water is random or the amount needed to be added.
How did it go?
@@jemberlou it worked great and was a lot of fun. I used it at a couple different gatherings. Sometimes I just demonstrated it. The kids and a few adults where really interested in how it worked. One note, I found you have to blow air from the bottom through it after each time you “get greedy” when filling because the residual water left in could cause it to evacuate prematurely when you start to pour water in it:)
did you need supports for your print and which way did you have it flipped in your slicer?
This kind of design is actually relatively easy to manufacture, even at Pythagoras times: you start by shaping a copper tube, then mold a cup around it with clay. You just need to think about it more than 20 seconds, but when you have a 3D printer all your problems look like slicing problems... Also, I wouldn't say that a cup with a hole in the bottom looks like a normal cup...
You can hide the hole by handing the cup to the victim already pre-filled. Then watch with amusement as they try to refill it 😂
A copper tube was not cheap. Better to use wax, and melt it after the clay has dried.
In metal cups, there may be a hole in the stem to lighten the cup. The profile of the hole would be a little odd, but no one would notice.
An embedded copper tube within clay would crack the clay, especially in a thin wall like this. Clay shrinks as it fires, while metal does not. However, other suggestions of a wax coil, rope, etc., which burn out early in the firing phase, would work, so you’re correct that Pythagorus could have made this design.
Bruh, no-one looks at the bottom of cups anyways!
So it’s the exact same thing in a different form factor. Wow, so amazing, genius!
Never thought the siphon effect was due to atmospheric pressure on one side of the tube. If you think about it simply, the atmospheric pressure also works on the other end of a tube so the net pressure effect is zero. Always thought of it as a chain of water molecules simply being heavier on one side and consequently leading to the heavier end pulling the entire stream over and out.
Loved how you highlighted the siphon effect has more than one mechanism. Even if one part dominates in a specific scenario, that does not mean it explains the whole picture. Good scientific rigor!
no, surface tension cohesion and atmospheric pressure play basically no part in this, the only important effect here is the negative pressure from the water column due to gravity, and the pipe diameter
This looks like you could probably make it with ancient or medieval tech by shaping a metal tube and embedding it in the clay, though I don't know how thermal expansion might affect the firing process. If a metal tube won't work, you can always use a piece of wire covered in wax, I guess.
I'm pretty sure your first idea would shatter the clay; clay shrinks a lot when it fires. Wax might work, I don't know.
wax is a way to do it, the same way you do molds, the wax just melts away when you fire the cup, leaving a hole behind.
You could definitely do it in multiple parts through more standard methods, the real innovation with 3d printers is that it can do it in a single piece
A piece of rope imbedded in the clay would probably do it.
Oh hey fellow TSFH enjoyer :D
I like steve mould's videos that explain a similar effect using chains. He did it in a several-storey building to see how far up the chain would go by itself.
I learned the principle as "connected tubs", which allows handy demonstrations with garden hoses and buckets .
Ive often thought of it as a chain. Now I'm thinking it's like a chain that starts off skinny and gradually gets thicker/heavier. It starts to pull more down as it picks up speed/inertia.
The chain would do that anyways without getting thicker and heavier because as the chain starts moving it's inertia decreases but it's momentum increases that momentum will carry it through.
3:57 the air is a part of the chain, it isn't able to be just pulled out to infinity, it's still matter.
I had the exact same thought.
3:10 "just recently it was proposed that a siphon works like a chain" That was my intuitive childhood understanding, and it explains why you can suck on the bottom of a tube to start a siphon. It draws the fluid over the brink, then the fluid falls over, and the vacuum draws more fluid behind it.
I feel you could make the devious version fairly easily by using a material that dissolves in a liquid or melts during firing. Suspend a wax rod bent in the proper shape in a mold and then slipcast a clay cup. Then, when you fire the clay, the wax would melt and wam bam a devious cup.
1:03 You heard the man, don't hit the griddy
When he talked about the theory that siphons work more like chains that Steve Mould and Electroboom fiddled towards, I immediately thought "Woah, I've seen the lead up to this idea!" It feels amazing to watch science happen
I had a Dejva vu moment too!
I can imagine a way to do it with skill and just what ever may have been available at the time. Patient clay work around a frame following the shape of the hollow, either of some flexible metal, a chain or rolled straw that could be pulled or burned away once the clay dries could conceivably work. If you look at cross section images of the cups they've found, they were large and theywerent need precision made so it might not even be so difficult, it would just take someone patient enough to have thought about improving on the idea further.
I can't believe people actually don't understand how siphon works. It's so simple it can be described with one word: vacuum. As the water leaves on one end die to gravity, the other water follow after it because otherwise a vacuum would be formed so the water just moves in to fill the vacuum. Same goes for gasses. They also move in to fill the vacuum and they also leave vacuum behind them that is filled by more water/gasses. As long as the water and gases are in a closed container when they leave at one end they will create vacuum that will drag more water/gasses. The experiment you did at 3:57 would not work if the bottle with the air is opened so outside air may come in. As the air leaves down the tube the vacuum "pulls" more water. But if the bottle was opened it will just "pull" more air form the atmosphere and the water wouldn't move.
If you want to make it less suspicious and thin walled, you could put the syphon in a handle.
That would have been pretty easy to make with clay. Create a cup, wrap the tube around it connecting it to the hole at the bottom create the stem connect the other end of the tube. Apply outer wall to cup.
What
Definitely. Clay should be able to do what that 3d printer did
Don't use a tube, just a wax string that melts out when burning the clay .
the trick is in the size of the drain hole. I think what is happening seems to be that when liquid goes over the curve, the difference in pressure (bernolli i think) drags the water down the thin pipes, this leaves behind less dense areas that are filled like a kid drinking pop through a straw until the water in the cup is drained. Cool vid, thanks
I don't think the size of the drain matters, I'm about 99.9% certain that it's the exact same principle behind how toilets work.
What’s amazing is that they were able to make anything like the Pythagoras cup with the tools and knowledge available.
I think the devious cup design looks like the "holy grail" from The last crusade. Based on that I think you you made the tube out of pipe you could form a clay cup around it and make an authentic looking cup that still has the devious cup function.
That’s what I was thinking if you had to do it in ancient times. Either that or casting.
The issue there might be finding a material that could withstand the heat of kiln firing, but not expand enough to crack the cup.
@@Dietscapefilms I was thinking of doing it in lost wax casting. Especially if you are going for mass production, having a wax/plastic insert that you put into the silicone mold...
@@RaviPatel-lb7uc I think you're looking to add material, but what of removing material?
now we need a malicious cup and a trolling cup
Malicious cup: a sieve or a tube Trolling cup: this cup but explodes instead of empties
One could be made out of clay by making a cup with thick walls, then carving out a deep channel and the hole through the bottom, then just adding a strip back on top of the channel but not completely filling the hole that was made. It wouldn't've been a perfect tube, more like a semi-circle or a crescent, but it definitely would work.
when water is one mass, it operates similarly to a solid in the sense that gravitational forces push the atomic particles toward the path of least resistance. if the whole mass of the water exceeds the needed threshold to go up the pipe (i.e. enough water is around) it then pushes the water in a game of dominoes as water when it's together, works as one mass of water. so if some of the water is moving, it forces the other water to follow along until the whole kinetic movement completes
I thoroughly enjoy your work. Not only do you explain things well, I can see that you show during the demonstrations you know what you are doing. Well done, sir.
How ironic considering he can't pull a vacuum or even near a vacuum. The water would be heavily boiling as liquid water can not exist for long in a vacuum.
Well, honestly I feel one of the biggest contributors to the siphon effect is the pressure of the water itself. The water exerts a pressure on itself due to it's weight. The weight of the water would allow it to also drag itself along. There's a lot more to it than that, I know, but I believe that's one of the main contributors.
This would not explain the last example, where we see two containers connected by tube, where the liquids are separated by an air. So you need to add negative pressure created by the water flowing away, sucking water from an another container. Atmospheric pressure is not involved at all.. and honestly I don't get why is author talking here about that "we don't know how it works" .. erm.
@@Reloecc Atmospheric pressure is absolutely involved in the last example. Water drains, same amount of air in a larger volume makes low pressure, low pressure pulls water from the tube.
There is also a limit to how high a siphon tube can go before it stops working. The answer is 32 feet... because that's how much water equals one atmosphere of pressure. It stops working beyond that.
My first thought was that it's a combined effect, which he did say later in the video. All of these different things, the weight of the water, atmospheric pressure, the link effect due to surface tension, gravity etc. are all putting their own push or pull onto the water, which then starts to move through the tube.
whoops!
One problem is that the water level changes when cup is tilted. so if you tilt and rotate the cup it will still drain. While the original cup doesn have this problem since the drain tube is at the center the level change when tilting the cup is minimal
So many things...I can't not watch your videos. Also, love the bun. Thanks for making great content that is entertaining and educational.
I'm using the siphon effect to water plants... Cool little ceramic spikes with hoses leading to a water bottle. The soil sucks the moisture out like a wick and the tube pulls the water in. Makes watering plants easier xD every 2-3 days I just refill and make sure they're still wet and pulling water.
So this is how scientists grow their plants...
I don't know for sure exactly what you're describing, but it certainly sounds like you're not using a siphon at all, and instead are relying on capillary action. Very different from this, but yes it is still useful.
Me picking a different cup because that cup looks kind of sus.
Syphon working in vacuum is really interesting, there can't be negative pressure in top point of tube. I think, it involves surface tension and inertia.
you could very easily make that using the wax method even thousands of years ago. use wax sticks to make the tube shape , put clay around the wax sticks , then fire the clay so the wax melts
This reminds me of a practical invention that uses this principle: the pipette washing assemblies for glass pipettes that used to be common in life science (and presumably chemistry) laboratories. This is designed like a greedy cup, but has the siphon easily visible on the outside, since it isn't trying to hide anything and isn't supposed to be tipped. It also has a short bit of tubing that you connect to a faucet with a hose; the exit end of this faces down to direct the jet of water downwards. You turn the water on, and it fills up until it submerges the pipettes and shortly thereafter activates the siphon, which drains out the water faster than the faucet can fill it, until the water is gone and breaks the siphon effect. Literally rinse, repeat. These were very low-tech (apart from the plastic used to make them), and they worked with no intervention except at the beginning and end of the rinsing process. On the downside, they used an enormous amount of water, although I have to wonder whether that is truly worse than the enormous amounts of plastic waste generated by the plastic pipettes that almost everybody now uses instead of the reusable glass pipettes. We even had one of these in the lab where I work, but never used it during my time (since November 2003), although I have seen them in use at one or two other labs where I work, during the early to middle part of the time I have been there. They are even still sold for quite a high price (I just checked on Fisher Scientific).
I can easily mass produce this cup with ancient clay pottery sculpting methods, using "wax loss", or really yarn, rope, or reed loss to preserve the channel in the cup through the sculpting and firing process. This was also done to create musical instruments out of clay. 3D printing is great, but it it's a new and expensive solution to a problem that was already solved.
The problem it's actually solving is that it's quicker than many of the old ways and is automated.
This is used in pondsor small lakes to keep them from muddying during rain.
This reminds me of how wing lift is actually not understood, even though we think we have figured some of it out. We have approximations that work in limited circumstances, at best.
I'm truly amazed at how much work you put into explaining science phenomenons and how comprehensible you make it
I always thought syphon effects like those worked because of vaccum Basically, as the tube slowly fills with liquid as the drink is poured, it pushes air out through the other end. When the liquid reaches high enough, it's pulled down by the gravity. However, the empty space that would have been left behind by the liquid is immediately filled by the liquid behind it. And this keeps happening. When the cup fully drains, air fills the empty spot. This also stands for the flying droplet syphon. The bottle doesn't want to be voided, so it pulls air from the other end, namely the liquid. It's also why, for instance, you can pull liquid up in a straw, block one end of the straw with your finger and then pick up the straw. As long as you keep it perfectly vertical, the liquid won't flow out of the straw, because it would leave a vaccum behind. However, if you tilt it, then the liquid would flow out, because then it allows air to go in and push the liquid out. Edit: Tl;dr - Syphon effects work because Nature doesn't like vaccums
This kind of reasoning works very well on earth. The problem is Nature is perfectly fine with vacuum, what it doesnt like is pressure There is a giant column of air pushing everything in every direction every time in the surface of the earth. The only reason we dont notice anything is because it is (almost) always pushing equaly hard in every direction. So the force cancels out If you remove the water or air in one side of a tube there is no longer anything pushing from that side, but the giant column of air is still pushing in the other. Thats where the force comes from. In most cases the final result is the same, but the explanation is backwards
Kazuma knows science? Impossible
i used to do this all the time and I just thought that its was because the water is creating a vacuum, but the water behind it is filling the vacuum, thus moving the water forward and continuing the chain.
The bowl of the cup and the exit both exprience the same pressure, regardless of you putting it in a vacuum or under more pressure. ...like almost all piping/ pump calculations you would cancel out the atmospheric pressure on both sides of the equation. Its a delta P created by the head height difference. That simple. If you put just the top of the cup in a vacuum, then that will stop it.
It's so surreal in retrospect to think that we live in a time in which machines like 3D printers are readily available and accessible for people with enough resources to purchase and use them. If this is mind-blowing for someone who has only lived through this century and 6 more years before it, imagine how mind-blowing it is for our parents and grandparents and how amazing it might be for someone even a couple of centuries ago to think this technology exists.
I am one of those "parents and grandparents". I remember when 3D printers were in their infancy. If you wanted one, you had to make one yourself. It wasn't even that long ago, less than 15 years.
I am fascinated by the implications of being able to build structures into the material. It is a whole new ball game from the old ways of making things.
Some small ones are pretty cheap actually 180-200 dollars
@@olmostgudinaf8100 I know, I remember that as well, I also remember the time before drones became a thing and even back to early KZhead circa 2007-2009 there were videos of models and prototypes of drones and it was to me very cool, I can no longer find most of them and also they started becoming a thing around ten years ago I believe, but still, I'm not even 30 and I feel amazed by how much technology has changed and evolved in my lifetime since the 90s.
@@itoibo4208 I know right? I think the first time I came into contact with this concept was when they were developing those 3D pens about ten or a few more years ago. It's really amazing what engineering and science can do with technology nowadays.
As people mentioned, the devious cup could be made out of clay with a wax or tin inlay that is melted out afterwards, but it could also be build up in layers like a 3D printer does but manually out of clay.
Also! If you're thinking of printing these cups, be sure to get food-safe filament! 3D printers melt plastic and the chemicals in it could leech into whatever you put in it, making it unsafe to drink. Same with the fumes when printing, so also make sure it's well ventilated.
the problem with the design in practical and long term use is that it's gonna a nightmare to attempt to clean the siphon which otherwise is liable to become a complete bacteria trap after a while.
Glad I watched this. Now I can sleep easy knowing about the greedy cup.
Id love to see the flying droplet syphon in a vacuum, my guess is that the bottom portion would just flow out but the upper portion would stay where it is. Of course you would need a vacuum in the middle 'air' portion as well, otherwise the air pressure would just push everything out.
Water does funky things in vacuum, -> tripel point
It would probably still slowly drain, unless you also removed gravity
Yes, this is what would happen. Acctually I dont understand why the "chain" explanation is supposed to be incomplete. Your proposal is acctually what a "broken chain" would be, the one with air inbetween is in essence a chain with different kinds of links.
Gravity must have a lot to do with syphons. I don't think a syphon would work in microgravity either with an atmosphere (space station) or not. Would it work in artificial gravity like a centrifuge? Syphons will work on Mars but would they work on the moon? I'm not completely convinced by Action Lab's vacuum chamber test. His vacuum might not have been strong enough - even a small amount of air in the chamber would show a pressure gradient in the presence of gravity.
@@mb-3faze dude math
The vacuum was not 100%, and if you want gravity in the mix, then a split in a solid water column would produce a 100% vacuum, whereby the residual pressure in the vacuum chamber is enough to make the water 'stick' while being pushed out by gravity. So the result should be from both cohesion and pressure. You could check how much water is left, to see if the last water gets pulled out of the system by cohesion, or if drain stops when the last bend is reached and the cup is empty. Or use a fluid with different cohesion. Hope it made sense..
100% vacuum ... I doubt that. Pumps that produce close to 100% vacuum are more complex than split in a solid water column.
A water column of 150 mm will still have about 15 hPa at the bottom. It's not the atmosphere that's pushing it into the tube so much as it is the water itself. This is why when a siphon's outlet is at the same level as the inlet it just trickles. It's the difference in pressure from inlet to outlet that determines flow.
4:00 that's a different kind of siphon which v clearly works based on atmospheric pressure, considering the water is being pulled into an airtight chamber. Were there a hole in it, the water would just drain out of the siphon without pulling any new liquid from the other cup
"Hey, look, a cup with A HOLE IN THE MIDDLE, not even a little bit suspicious hmm"
I cannot believe that a siphon is not nearly as simple as I thought! I always learn something new in these videos.
It's all about hydrogen bonds! Kind of how trees work too.
I've thought about improving the Pythagoras cup and came up with a similar design. I tried to make it work with yogurt pots and plastic straws but it never really worked well. But I knew it was possible and until now I've always been confused why it seemingly wasn't a thing
Impressive! I would love to own a decent 3D printer like this one day.
"We could order small cups" Pythagoras: " But then, what will they learn?"
Came for the cool cup, stayed for the phenomenal explanation
Tru, tru, I like this explanation. It's a bunch of effects that all contribute to the syphon effect. I mostly thought of the atmospheric pressure one too. If you do it in a vacuum chamber I feel like the syphon effect would be weaker Would be interesting to see the same setup playout in both 1ATM and in the V-Chamber.
Its even more devious when action lab uses the word devious
0:45 and now we know that their wine was psychedelic, makes it even more interesting.
Now you just need to get some clear filament and print it again. Maybe even alter the infill and play with adding dye in layers to the liquid.
i hope teachers play your videos in class because you make stuff entertaining while also teaching something neat
F man that's the most exciting advancements in 3D printing ever! And though I'm a novice print from the cloud, lightning fast creation and the moving 'X' axis have just made me feel like I can really make good use of this tool. Near perfect printing changes the offering in this field to professional products that I can surely fettle to perfection and sell from home. Meanwhile taking my hands completely off building for numerous projects. Creality is definitely on my wishlist from today forward!
Actually if you really think about it the Syphon effect occurs due to the vacuum created in the tube by the falling liquid on the outlet side, that can be understood by going back to the pressure of water depending on depth, it's always dependant on the weight of the water column above the measuring area, therefore the weight of the water column in the siphon and the fact that it can't pull air back through the outlet when properly constructed are what pulls the water column relative to that tube's inlet in the reservoir and anything above both is neutral in total energy (fluid goes up and down the same distance) which also explains why syphons don't work if they are too short, you can also imagine a Syphon that runs on something like a soft sand that is capable of sealing gaps, it would work just the same, now the full show, there is water pressure from the top of the water to wherever the inlet of the Syphon is which comes from the weight of the water, that is pushing into the Syphon pushing the water to level with the reservoir and keeping it at that level with no energy input, making that state a static one and making it so that all you need now is a little pulling on the other end of the siphon due to the weight of the fluid and how it seals the Syphon to backwards flow, what guarantees a Syphon will continue to pull the fluid out when the level gets lower and lower is how long the outlet is, if it's too short it will stop before it empties the container because it will take more energy than the water column in the outlet has due to it's weight and gravity, also it's not as much surface tension that causes the pull as it is the incompressibility of liquids and the fact that it takes energy to push air up into a column of fluid moving downwards.
You can trigger the siphon effect by drinking if you hold the new design wrong, which was not possible with the original centered drain.
Pythagoras is not a funnel but it closely has some similarities to a funnel but it ships like a cup because when it's full of liquid it drains out at the bottom. It's cool that I learned this because I kinda wanna make a concrete version of this.
Im so happy to see that outside of old sanitary pad commercials, the blue liquid is still doing its thang.
You could probably make the cup out of metal if you made the tube via two halves, but it would be extremely hard to make precise enough so yes, 3D printing is the way to go!
Just wondering, basically clueless on cup making etc. What if you had the metal rod in the shape from the deceptive/devious cup and placed them in a mold to then 'cast a cup around it? Could that work? Without the 3D printing?
Its just pressure difference... Even in vacuum, the fluid pressures are different on both ends until either same level is reached or the tube is able to reach atmospheric pressure on the low pressure side. Its basic hydraulics.
In order to prank, I will offer these cups to greedy people for Christmas
By what I have seen, heard, and learned, matter will always want to go to it’s lowest energy state. One example I saw was a ball rolling down a lumpy/wavy but steep slope. It has long drops into short pits and repeats. Even though the slope has many pits where the ball can rest, it still isn’t the lowest energy point on the slope. With enough push (energy) behind it, the ball will just continue rolling down the slope. I believe it’s a very similar effect here, but with water/wine trying to get to it’s lowest energy state (outside the cup).
first thought, would the syphon start be simply tilting it to drink from the wrong end? but then i get it why the high tube goes 180° or plus around the cup :) , that way that doesn't happen
Pythagoras went through the trouble of designing and engineering a clever cup that punishes you for being too greedy, when he could've just bought smaller cups that prevent you from being greedy to begin with.
but thats what really really smart people do lol f**k with their friends and enemies evenly.
@Scott's Precious Little Account Relax, its a youtube comment. If you're so sensitive that you can't just ignore comments like this then maybe just don't look?
@@noepotato9731 dude, he didn't mean any harm he was saying "but that's what really really smart people do, lol. they mess with their friends and enemies evenly" honestly its dumber when you see a comment with a swear and jump to conclusions, along with trying to look cool and sassy
Water is limited to about 26 ft of suction head before it turns to vapor in pumps system s.Far less for oil or gas etc . Excellent channel 👍
Couldn't you pump up the vapor though, just like you did with water? Also, couldn't you just lower the temperature, so that it condenses back to a liquid?
Imagine being a guest at Pythagoras’ place, and being drenched in wine because you got greedy! Lol cool video!
5:45 Sir I don't think both my kidneys would be enough to buy a 3D printer 🙂🙂