Grid Switches and where they might be used.
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I do a lot of work in my life. I always return to you as a Sage. Thanks for your no nonsense videos.
Just wanna publicly say we are big fans and are proud to call you a respected friend and part of the e5 family. Your awsome!
Just wanted to say thank you for your videos, i'm using them to learn about the electric world so I can become an apprentice electrician. Probably one of the easiest jobs i've ever seen done when you understand what you are doing.
Thanks John, very informative as usual 👍
nice video. MK Grid Plus range looks nice.. used them many a time.
Fascinating that electrical systems were that advanced in the late 70s.
Hi John very nicely presented video!
Great video as always JW!
Yeah, useful stuff. The brands we use include a whole lot of connectors too - RCA, HDMI, F, CAT 6, CAT 3, etc. I've even used a surface mount box with a socket and 3-way switch to decide what the load earth pin is connected to - earth, floating, or neutral. Use it for proving to tenants that it's their appliance that keeps tripping the earth leakage, not my installation. It's also got 4mm sockets for a voltmeter, and exposed loops of test lead cable for a clamp meter. Lots of options.
Nice! One thing that i spotted about the Mk standard logic plus light switch that you showed in the video is that the light module is the same as he grid switch section. You can actually see the little clips on it that are used to attach it to the grid.
0:33 It does look that way but you'll find they're missing the face part if you remove it to install in a grid.
You can't remove it anyway because both the different parts of the module and the face plate/insert are designed so that they only snap on one way during assembly.
My office has a bank of 9 microwaves. (Don't ask...) and we have a wall of grid switches to turn them off along with the dishwashers. We have been in this office two years and never once have any of them been used. 🤪
I wish American products went together like that, ours have the switch elements screw into the box. Just more work installing or moving/removing them.
Do a search for: despard switches/devices.
Been around for a long time in USA
I didn't know CED made grid switch accessories, you can also use grid switches in domestic settings, I have only ever used Crabtree or MK grid switches so I can't comment much on other brands. Another advantage of a grid switch is being able to change the style of the face plates and even the modules from white to chrome for example. In some cases it's easier to make up a grid switch to match up a metal socket or light switch especially if your going for MK or Crabtree. You can still buy older type Crabtree and MK grid switch components on EBay so that's one way to replace a dud module in an existing grid switch.
Thanks for sharing 👍
Dont mind admitting how exciting it was to see the new gridswitch system, though the 70's MK ones could hurt your finger clipping the metal things on. You'd put 5 on no problem and the 6th would dig in so you got sore tips. Our factory still has the MK original grids, it was built in 1974. And I'm old enough to remember when the gridswitches were mounted with wood screws into a flush wooden back box and the faceplates had bakelite indentations to appear similar to the old round dolly switches.
I used to love grid switch installations...like lego for sparkies lol :-) great for contactor switching, and fused circuits, and fish key switching for emergency lighting. great for village halls etc. Great video JW
Got one for my CH system ;) Must get round to fitting it ! 2 switches per normal wet zones, (5) and a 6th for the immersion heater. I'm planning to make the immersion heater controllable via wet system controls for DHW - so if the boiler fails, I can have DHW on same times. Of the 2 sw per wet zone, one will have neon to show zone is on (i.e. calling for heat). 1 sw for off and the neonned sw for ON. So if the OFF sw is on and the ON sw is off, (i.e. normal operation) the heating to that zone is controlled locally by timer and thermostat.
Very nice teaching, thank you
Inexplicably, one of my highschool classrooms had a pair of MK key switches as the light switches for the room, the rest of the rooms in the building had regular switches.
One interesting innovation I have spotted (but haven't tried myself yet) in the modular space is "minigrid" from Scolmore. It differs from traditional grid systems in several ways. Firstly the smaller plates don't use a seperate yoke, the modules just screw directly to the back of the plate. Secondly the modules are smaller so you can put 3 modules on a 1 gang plate and 6 on a 2 gang plate (vs 2 or 4 with most grid ranges). Thirdly rather than having separate modular and non-modular ranges their standard light switches are pre-built assemblies of minigrid modules. So rather than having to carry two separate sets of products you can just swap modules around. The main downside seems to be lower current ratings than other grid products (the highest rated single-module switchs are 10AX rated single pole or 13A resistive rated double pole).
I've ordered a few different switches from them just to have a look to see if we want to use them in a house we are having built. They have turned up now, the white Mode faceplates are very solid and the small screws holding the switches in go into a threaded brass insert in the faceplate, all in all looks good. I also bought a cma736 double switched socket, I haven't done a JW and pulled it apart, but it feels weighty and solid, if anything the switches are rather heavy to operate. The not so good now, of the 9 3 way retractive switches I bought three didn't work because the switch cap had become unclipped and the metal metal switch leaf which is only held in position by a sprung rod on the cap was now floating around inside the switch body. The cap is held in place by two tiny pivot stubs going into the sides of the switch body, it doesn't take much force for one of these to pop out. There are three springs acting outwards on this cap, two return springs and on on the actuation rod so it is quite happy to jump free. When mounted in a plate I couldn't get the cap to come lose with any reasonable force as the sideways/twisting movement of the cap is constrainted so in use they will likely be OK. The switch leaf is a diamond shape with a few bends in it so it makes approximately a V shape and it just sits into a plastic cup in the base of the switch. The actuating rod from the cap hold it in place so if that comes loose so does the leaf. The good news is that if you take the cap off completely you can get the leaf back into position quite easily and then push the cap back on. It did take a quite a few goes as any off angle force and the leaf is again in the wind. They look nice at least and I intend to use them to control smart dimmers, hence retractive switches, the idea is to pick different caps for different light sets on different floors.
interesting this as i need to get a switch which is marked washing machine for a grid - its 2000 vintage so this will help me get the switch out to get the manufacturer - thanks
Hi John, Just wondering what you dont like about the kitchen control panels? I think they're great? On the whole, appliances will be in a socket or hard-wired behind the alliance so in theory need/is good to have a switch for maintenance? I think it's handy to have a control panel, rather than switches spurs scattered around the place...
A few years ago I needed a key-operated fused spur, connected to a 30A ringmain. This was for a fixed interactive lighting installation in a school, key-operated to prevent tampering by kids. I suggested using grid-switch components to fit a single-width back-box - a fuseholder with 3A fuse, and a fish-key switch. The local electrician said this wasn't possible as the switch wasn't rated 30A, and wouldn't accept my argument that the 3A fuse provided protection. I ended up installing this anyway after he'd gone, but was he just mistaken or would there be a regs issue doing this? And would it matter in which order the switch and fuseholder was connected.? I'm fairly sure the switch was a DP one
Personally I would have fitted the switch after the fuse as the circuit the switch is on could then never see the 30A current even in a fault condition. I wouldn't have a problem fitting something like that as it could just be treated as a fused spur.
Nothing wrong with that, the 3A fuse provides overload protection. Switches only need to be rated for the load they are controlling, not the upstream circuit protection.
The switches in switchsockets and FCUs sure as heck aren't rated at 32A, neither are the DP switches commonly used to switch under-counter appliances.
Not sure about having the fuse before the switch, I don't like the idea of a permanently live fuse carrier. The switch would see the same fault current regardless of the position of the fuse anyway, unless the fault occurred between the fuse and the switch.
@@technic550 Very logical provided any fault was after the fuse and not between it and the switch.
Just fitted a whole load of Scolmore, Click MiniGrid switches, very nice quality, all metal front plates. Looking for an LED dimmer from them, but can't pin them down on compatibility.
Most dimmer modules will fit into their empty inserts. I've used them a few times for triac and 0-10V LED dimmers from different manufacturers.
did you ever sort you pocket hole screws out? i am having the same problem with them poking through, 1 screw another too short the other too long.
John you need to do a video of what future smart devices could mean for electrical distortions in the home, spiked, transients and how power quality issues are going to become more important and how safety devices RCDs, ADDs and other DB protective devices will need to be more discerning.
Hi Guys, Wonder if I may ask a question? Is it permissible to run the red fire alarm cable with the mains T&E cable, though holes and in the same trunking? I thought alarms were 24V and that ELV, data, telephone etc & LV should be kept separate? Maybe there is an exemption for fire alarm wiring as it is screened and fire retardant? If so, I can't find the specific reg. TIA, N.
Dose a 2 gang switch switch on two different things but switch off one but switch on another
What is a put off is all those cables in close proximity to each other behind. The cables also take up space, so all is crammed in. People only want sockets above worktops in kitchens, eliminating ugly FCU isolators. Grid switches are the the appliance isolators, tucked away in a cupboard. Depending on how many isolators are needed, many use double boxes and FCUs, which are easier to install - and probably cheaper. A larger setup but in a cupboard it doesn't matter in most cases.
Hello John, thanks for the video, always good to make my day more interesting. Am planning a few meetups in the uk before the end of the year if all is safe and well to do so, and one for the end of may/start of June 2021 in America for Boston Massachusetts if its safe and able to be done, will keep you updated, am going to have a look for your mail bag po box address. Have a great day, hope you are doing well and everybody is alright
I know space is limited in these things but I wonder who will be first to create a smart grid dimmer (zigbee or zwave) for example. Or do they exist already?
Seeing the old MK book took me back, I realise how old I am. I remember GridPlus being advertised before it became available. The secret key named the fish key was the original 1970s design in the old MK book which you showed at the end. I think it was the ultimate EM test key, you could actually grip hold of something when you switched and was quite tough. Hate the new MK secret keys with that stupid screwdriver thing on the end, too small and fiddly to use. I also hated the captive screws, if the first fixer put the flush boxes in the wall too deep for the switches it was a pig removing them to fit longer ones. I didn't like using them extension socket screws, they were never threaded the full length and 9 times out of 10 the unthreaded part always seemed to be the part that landed in the tag due to extension screw being just that bit too long. JW, when are you going to do us a vid on Pyro, or have you done one and I missed it? I'm looking forward to seeing that old Pyrotennex book I saw on your desk in another video. Keep em coming.
I still have a fish key I bought it out to Australia with me back in 93 I don’t know why it was just in the packing box Haven’t use it since of course
Does anyone know much about the Eurogrid system? I did an assembly just before lockdown, which had a 13A socket, HDMI and USB module on a 2-gang plate. The usual switches, indicators, blanks etc were also available as well as a load of audio visual and data modules. As I remember, I got the 13A socket from Toolstation, and the plates from CPC/Farnell. They clipped into position with no screws involved.
I'm in two minds about them. On the one hand being able to mix brands and the availability of a wider variety of modules is nice. On the other hand I worry a little about how safe they are for two reasons. Firstly clipping modules in from the front of the plate does not seem like a very robust retention system and I'm not sure how well it will stand up to use and abuse. A particular form of abuse that concerns me is people opening the shutters and sticking a Europlug into a 13A socket and the Europlug then getting stuck. I fear this could lead to the module getting pulled out of the front plate. Secondly I fear that people will install them without taking account of the fact that mains wiring and data/av wiring need to be kept separate. If you built the arrangement you describe in your post on a normal backbox then it is not compliant. Scolmore do seem to offer some large boxes with dividers to allow a mixture of mains and ELV modules, but I haven't seen anyone offer them for standard sized boxes.
Hi John. I have an eight way grid with four switches and four fuse modules in my kitchen for appliances with flex plates below the worktops. Would the alternative be to lose the grid and replace the flex plates with fused spurs?
If you were going to do that, I'd not use spur outlets but fit 13A sockets as appliances would then plug straight in. It is usual though to have remote switches for under-counter or built-in appliances - for ease of turning off - and in your case, checking the fuse. If I was you' I'd stick with what you have !
@@millomweb Makes perfect sense, thanks.
Hi John, any plans to upload the scans from that MK catalogue to your website? I'd love to have a scroll through that.
At some point yes - I have several others as well.
John Ward looking forward to that. Thanks for the videos John, really enjoyable content.
How do you unclip the switch from the plate?
JW. A friend of mine has recently bought a new build which has a Deta grid system in the kitchen to control the washing machine, cooker hood and fridge/freezer. When he showed me one of the switches I noticed there was no CPC. Probably a silly question, but does the CPC on modular grid systems simply run to the appliance and not the switches?
It needs to connect to the switches as well, there will be a terminal on the metal frame and also on the front plate and box if they are metal. CPC must be taken to every point in a wiring system.
@@jwflame Thanks JW. There must have been a CPC connection to the yolk which was not visible with the modules in place. Happy new year to you and yours; thank you for the content this year.
Only MK do a 24v indicator. We use them in commercial kitchen as Chef's selectors with airflow indication. It's time MK did them in LED. Time the others caught up !
Hi JW just one point you said you didn’t see the need to have a switch control for a boiler but this is a requirement under gas safe regulations
Are you sure he said that ? At what time in the video. It seems unlikely he said it and I suspect you've misinterpreted him.
do you mean the gas safe register or the gas safety regulations? They're different things
I have various coax, phono and satellite connections behind my tv, it doesn't look too great to be honest, as i have MK accessories throughout my property, i may go for a grid system, just to tidy things up. Not so hot on combining a coax/satelite connection in the same enclosure as mains power, i know years ago when everything was analogue, you would get interference induced on to a tv for example, not sure if digital equipment would suffer a similar fate.
Get an MK euro module faceplate an euro modules for your A/V. Don’t put that in the same enclosure/backbox/trunking as your mains wiring and sockets as that’s contrary to BS7671
Reminds me of a school I went too. Key switches for the lights with separate neon indicators to show the lights were on 😕
That reminds me. I must get in touch with the local council and tell them that the lights have been on in my local primary school since the lockdown started!
Only 2 comments really to say about this: was there anybody in ? Maybe they thought the neons would work in a power failure ? But in fact, they'd show live fittings with duff bulbs.
@@millomweb this is what went wrong with Chernobyl. They had a light on the control panel to indicate the vent, but it actually only indicates power supply not confirmation of the vent working (which it wasn’t!)
Regarding the use of these multi gang switches in kitchens- How does that comply with the regulations of the one spur off a single point on a ring circuit? And should it be signed off on the test cert?. It would have to go down as a deviation from bs7671. Maybe acceptable on a radial but where would the true end of line be?
"How does that comply with the regulations of the one spur off a single point on a ring circuit?" there is no such regulation, there is however a requirement that rings should be designed such that sustained overloading is unlikely, so you would want to keep a grid switch assembly running lots of appliances somewhere in the center-third of the ring and you would want to wire the grid switch assembly itself so that the ring went to all the switches. "Maybe acceptable on a radial but where would the true end of line be?" there is no requirement for a "true end of line".
Thanks I see ive never put one in. So Make each switch a point on the ring- wire in to the first switch common then jump between commons and out the last one to continue the ring, with individual outgoing cables to each load. i bet that back box is rammed with t&e. On radials i was always taught onsite to loop in and out and any new items where wired from the end leaving a definitive end of line.
@@Weaselspleen75 Normally for kitchens you would use the DP switch modules, so both the live and neutral would loop to all the switches. The earths would need to go somwhere, iirc there is usually an earth terminal on the grid but i'm not sure what capacity it has. I bet the box does get crowded though this can probablly be reduced by installing the modules in the grid before installing the grid in the box and keeping the link wires between modules short.
A ring for a set of switches is total nonsense, but it's usually done that way because a 32A radial would require at least 4mm² cable, and that won't physically fit into most grid switches. The whole concept of a rack of switches for all of the kitchen appliances is a poor design and totally unnecessary.
@@jwflame Agreed. Unnecessary new build Kitchen clutter
Can you make a video about how dimmable fluorescent lighting?
No. There are too many variables making it somewhat a specialist scenario. Most likely for new installs - which now would be LED, not fluorescent.
I've been mounting up the grid switches to my home made lamps recently John!
They remind me of North American switches and sockets with their modular designs.
So can each switch in a grid be independently fused?
It can be, you would need a fuse module for each switch. Modules can be arranged in any combination.
@@jwflame so to run 4 appliances each with it’s own fuse you need an 8 gang grid, 4 switches top 4 fuses bottom and run from switch through fuse to the appliance? Thanks for your help JW
Obviously the plate and the yoke have to be the same size and manufacturer (and product range) to fit together. Also I take it the switches made by different companies are not cross-compatible, eg. front area of a switch would not fit the cutout of a different brand of plate. Does a switch module of Brand A snap into a yoke from Brand B?
No compatibility between ranges, other than some dimmers which are supplied with adaptors for various different systems.
@@jwflame Thanks for that quick and useful response. Grid modules are not standard. But are Euro modules? I thought that was a standard. eg. I could put a rj45 socket from MK into a surround from BG?
Hate it when you have a faulty switch and it's not mk then it's a pain to find one. I keep old mk for spares lot easier to replace one old one rather than have to fit 18 new ones
Toggle switches went out of fashion by manufacturers ages ago but I prefer them !
I could never make out why they 1 way ,2 way,6a,20a, why not just 20a 2 way , cost perhaps?
When 24 Oxo cubes are cheaper than 12, I totally agree - make all sw 20A. But 1 way, 2 way, double throw is adding more components while majority of switching is 1 way - so seems reasonable to provide economical switches rather than over-engineer everything.
fan isolator plus 3a fuse holder
Click do one
Yeah, click minigrid is the only range I have seen that covers that combination. Assuming you want normal white plastic the parts you need are CMA403+MD020WH+MD047WH
@@ashbashbaby2 that's the one I've used
If you have a 24 way panel and one switch breaks, the manufacturer has discontinued that line of product - replace the entire panel + 24 switches. Tired of this proprietary lock in. But then try to standardise these things and the whole standardisation process gets mired by parasitic committee types justifying their existence.
I hate grid switches.