Destroying Peace Since 1949. NATO: Anatomy of a Bad Idea | A. Lieven, J. Matlock & J. Mearsheimer
00:00 Highlights
01:56 Intro Katrina vanden Heuvel
05:05 Intro Pascal
08:19 Jack Matlock: What NATO is about
13:44 John Mearsheimer: NATO Expansion
18:56 Anatol Lieven: The Hubris of NATO
28:38 Jack Matlock: This is not a Cold War
34:56 John Mearsheimer: The Failings of the West
38:34 Anatol Lieven: Universal Rivalry of the West
42:36 Jack Matlock: Overcommitment of the USA
46:15 John Mearsheimer: What the USA cares about
50:26 Anatol Lieven: Illiberal domestic policies blamed on Russia
54:50 Jack Matlock: Necessity of turning AWAY from Nuclear War
58:19 John Mearsheimer: Necessity of NATO severing ties with Ukraine
On April 4, 1949 the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) was founded in Washington DC. To commemorate the 75th anniversary of the worlds largest military alliance, we hosted a panel with three iconic IR thinkers.
Jack Matlock-the last US Ambassador to the Soviet Union, Professor John Mearsheimer-the World's most renowned realist thinker, and Anatol Lieven-the Quincy Institute's finest journalist, are our guests. The panel was convened by the American Committee for US-Russia Accord and Catharina vanden Heuvel, the former Editor in Chief of the Nation Magazine together with Neutrality Studies.
In this talk, the three realists explain how NATO after the Cold War has morphed into a global linchpin of instability and a failed vehicle of US power projection.
00:00 Highlights 01:56 Intro Katrina vanden Heuvel 05:05 Intro Pascal 08:19 Jack Matlock: What NATO is about 13:44 John Mearsheimer: NATO Expansion 18:56 Anatol Lieven: The Hubris of NATO 28:38 Jack Matlock: This is not a Cold War 34:56 John Mearsheimer: The Failings of the West 38:34 Anatol Lieven: Universal Rivalry of the West 42:36 Jack Matlock: Overcommitment of the USA 46:15 John Mearsheimer: What the USA cares about 50:26 Anatol Lieven: Illiberal domestic policies blamed on Russia 54:50 Jack Matlock: Necessity of turning AWAY from Nuclear War 58:19 John Mearsheimer: Necessity of NATO severing ties with Ukraine
NATO slowed the spread of Communism. When NATO didn't exist we had 2 world wars, 2 holocausts (Ukraine & Germany) & communism spread worldwide.
@@tnndll4294you seem to confuse nato with the UN and nato did not contain communism as much as it contained the ussr/Warsaw pact. Article 5 has only been invoked once and that was in no relation to the cold war. Ergo, I agree with the sentiment of the speaker.
Warsaw Pact was formed to respond to NATO threats. Meaning since 1949, the Westerners only desires was to fight the Soviets and even when Soviet was gone, same NATO remained with passionate desires to destroy Russia even when Russia was never a threat to Europe and US.
WARMONGERS CANNOT HELP THEMSELVES CAUSING WARS VIA DEATH & DESTRUCTION-!!!
💯 truth
Tell this to Baltic states and Poland - they are so brainwashed plus there is a huge hatred towards Russia and they genuinely hate Russians.
The Warsaw Pact was created in 1955 two weeks after W. Germany became a member of NATO.
it was both a delusion and a usefool propaganda tool.
“Destroying peace since 1949” should be a T-shirt… or a letterhead!✅
The refrain is: Fight for Freedom and Democracy (read: Freedom of Plutocracy), Human Rights (read: Narcissism and entitlement) and Civil Liberties (read: Manipulation).
@@pierocavolino1057 OK. Start making them. I'd buy a couple.
Well put.
Name two democratic countries that went to war with one another it doesn't happen the NATO alliance is an alliance of democratic countries whose citizens vote for their leaders wtf is wrong with that
@@genelarson6849 Perhaps a little search on the web: 1. The "Cyprus case"; where Turks and Greeks did not refrain from assaulting each others. Still is alive - at the present time - a militarized neutral zone. A few years ago, Turkey-Greece again on the edge ..... 2. The UK-Iceland and their "cod war". Yes, a fish was the reason of some minor shooting (skirmishes). At the end, Iceland extended its fishing rights to more nautical miles. 3. When it is not within, the external side could be affected; like the Kosovo-Serbia conflict. In any form, an alliance is not an insurance of a perpetual end of conflicts. There are two sides of the coin: National interests and external enemies. Any Gov. in charge could opt for one another.
Jack Matlock is 94, 19 years older than I am, but he is lucid and up to date and is able to speak better extemporaneously than old Joe or MANY people who are far younger than he is.
Hard to believe at his age, his intellectual energy, extremely cogent. You can see why he was an ambassador.
He was the best of the US diplomatic service, where once Bill Burns was also a star. Now Burns is a shill for the shit done by the CIA, but Matlock still has a clear mind.
91!! Joe Biden is only 81, but he is doing much worse than the ambassador. Maybe there is something much more problematic in Biden than his age.
So you see it is not all about age is it. Mr Matlock was no doubt on the ball, bright and curious when he was 10 years old and dear President JB, was he ever much different? I suspect he got what he wanted, loot and power, being what he is, a shifty tool, and there was no incentive to change. Tool just got blunter.
Gorbachev contradicts Mr. Matlock on the NATO "promise" misinformation. Matlock needs to have his memory checked.
"SAFETY HAS TO BE SAFETY FOR ALL" Those were the words of Mikhail Gorbachev, that the arrogance of the so-called West in believing itself to be omnipotent, never bothered to put into practice.
Not safety. Security.
No power has ever believed that. "Safety" or "Security" as far as politics is concerned is mostly safety from other human powers. Hence by definition, safety can't be for all: but I agree that security between adversaries created by a balance of existential threats (arms reduction treaties, limited cooperation treaties) is much better than endless escalation!
Russia never cared for Eastern Europe's agenda. We owe Russia nothing. Russia is not a special need country. Russia always feels provoked and needs excuses to feed its ego and grab more of somebody else's land.
The goal of the West is dominance, not security for all. We must correctly diagnose the illness. Western leaders do not believe the narratives they feed to their citizens.
The fear of anyone discussing these things being labeled as a ”traitor” is real. War demands fascism.
Not 'traitor' just 'fucking idiot'. If you want to live in places like North Korea, Soviet Union or even Russia 2024 go ahead.
America’s “dangerous winner’s mentality” (quote by Gorbachev) will lead us in a long run back to the Stone Age.
It truly seems that much of American GOVERNMENT'S efforts since the end of WWII has not been about elevating the viability of its citizens, and strengthening genuinely democratic principles, but about elevating the power of the STATE itself. Our present moment has all the earmarks of fascism.
Well said
Hello again tf. It is a creeping form of fascism, silent and slow, like a vine growing. I don't like it one bit.
As a Canadian I agree. Canada with the help of the WEF is well on its way to the same end.
NATO has reached Pension Age...needs to retire!
Stoltenberg makes me sick😢😢🥶🥶
NATO was a creation of America. As usual.
Stoltenberg only have 1 party in norway. But even them know his a ded man walking
Russia needs to stop making mess in the neighbourhood first. Russia is always more or less the same.
@@Blanka1100 WRONG, usa/ eu/ nato are wanting to mess with Russia. Usa have said many times; we wanna weaken Russia, so does england.
NATO was useful until the Cold War ended in 1989, and Gorbachev and Yeltsin should have insisted that NATO also be discontinued when the Warsaw Pact was dissolved back in 1990. It became a blight to society after 1990 as well.
Gorbachev was weak and yeltsin was a coward. Neither of them could insist on the dissolution of NATO because they gave Russia on a silver platter to the Americans.
@@gelinrefira also, they 'lost' the Cold War and had no leverage to demand NATO cease to exist.
NATO was never intended to counter a non-existent Soviet threat - it was designed to institutionalise the pre-existing US occupation of Europe, force decolonisation, deindustrialisation and prevent Europe rebuilding in friendship with the USSR. It is simply the instrument of American imperialism.
NATOs continuation was more a matter of government busy work. Everybody has to protect their rice bowl. If NATO had been dissolved, too many people would have had to find some other line of work.
The problem is that russia still think they are a superpower, so do Mershheimer….. Russia is a local power nothing more. Mersheimer still think Russia being Sovjet The ” experts” in this debate dont get many thing right.
We have here 3Evil Institutions : 1/ NATO 2/ UN 3/ EU
And US and WEF
All ruled by the same tribe
WHO
USI ( UNITED STATES OF ISRAELIE)
US US and US
Das ist einer der besten Kanäle im Moment. Danke dafür.
Danke Ihnen für die Unterstützung 😃
I agree! Good job, Pascal!
@@pariaheep Thank you!
No Nato = No more Wars!
Agreed
👏👏👏🍷
That's based on what? Your imagination?
History of Europe 1000-1945 = war History of Europe 1945-2022 = peace
Not so, sadly!
We miss the voice of Katrina’s late husband the great Stephen Cohen. A man of great knowledge, wisdom and compassion
Comrade Stalin's voice is missing. He would explain to your NATO why peaches are expensive in Siberia
Stephen Cohen is dearly missed by many ... do not ever give up Katrina.
I was only thinking yesterday how good it would be to hear him speak on todays mess.
@@rhonda6791 ... or David Graeber, journalist Robert Parry, and other valuable voices.
yes, I agree, Stephen Cohen was one of the true diplomats and knew a lot about Russia. Today's diplomats are only driven by hatred.
And then how have they made the EU synonymous with NATO, humiliation justly earned by Western politicians
Western politicians are just marionettes of the US, so thank you for nothing.
absolutely. I call them the Evil Twins of the Alliance for Evil.
Who made it? Putin the bastard! Since the invasion (in 2014), Ukraine would be too stupid if it didn't worry about protection. In any case: who is Putin to decide what's best for a nation with over 45 million people? The colonizer? The master? The Tzar? And who, with an ealthy mind, would prefer being part of the Russian fascist empire when he could be part of the European Union? Next door - Belarus - shows what future might bring. And only a total fool would bow to Putin-the-bastard (he is too small to be bowed to). Are you really that stupid?
@@nbrown4205 seems Western politicians have been brain-dead for thirty years, Serbia, Libya, Iraq, and Syria now they have a real fight on, it will be a total humiliation for them, BRICS growing.…
The EU has never been anything but a subsidiary of NATO...
A very outstanding team of experts giving their best assessment. What is wrong with Europe and US.
when will they talk about the real reason which is to conquer and divide Russia. Greed of empires the US empire.
When wll they start Eastern European countries and their agenda, rights and freedom in all of this. It s not soviet backyard anymore.
The US people in government have no interest in even conquering Mexico whereas Russia has desire to conquer Ukraine. Stop with your Russian propaganda. Its too simple and predictable.
Such a great line-up of great minds. Impressive to hear that Ambassador Matlock at 94 years is still so sharp and explains so well how the Soviet collapse really happened vs the revised narrative. I missed a few points though: 1) All speakers seem to imply that the US leadership made a huge mistake. Given that the main objective of the US president is to generate an impressive return on investment to the organisations that sponsored his election (Big Arms, big oil ...) this “stupid decision” makes perfect sense. 2) Nobody talks about the importance for Russia to keep Sevastopol in their hands. All their harbours in the north are frozen during winter, In the south there are a bunch of other countries in their way, Murmansk is useless due to territorial waters of Denmark and Sweden. Vladivostok is 11 time zones away from Kaliningrad. Therefore Sevastopol is of existential importance to Russia, which means that they would not hesitate to go nuclear, in order to keep its control. Hence the whole world should be thankful that Russia is winning this war without needing to go nuclear. 3) Most of the world population (All BICS members + the rest of Africa) is behind Russia in this conflict. The success of BRICS and its further expansion (Turkey in spite of being a vital NATO member is also candidate) will destroy the US-lead Unipolar world. The destruction of the US$ as Petrodollar will be just the beginning. 4) Every war is a huge failure of diplomacy. Biden is the one who refuses to talk to the Russians. If diplomacy could start now, Ukraine would just lose the currently occupied territory. If they don’t, they will lose Odessa too. But negotiations will not happen since Biden needs the war to go on until after the US elections.
Odessa will become Russian, russians have no more option than take it , otherwise it would become a de facto NATO harbour at the end of the war, a risk no russian leader would admit, can you imagine a Chinese or Russian fleet anchored on harbours in Mexico, Belize, Cuba ? Usa won't allow it, why Russians have to ?
All very good points.
Very good argument. Eminent historian Steven Kotkin suggested a year ago, that Ukraine's road to reclaiming Crimea, 'runs through Moscow', and that, even without Crimea, Russia ably threatens Ukraine from the far side of the Black Sea. Now that Ukraine has largely hounded the Russian fleet off Crimea (& disabled 30% of Black Sea fleet, without their own navy) ... there seems to be some change in relevant parameters. The value of the 'warm water port' on Crimea, is real; when Stalin transferred ownership of Crimea to Ukraine, he maintained its administration from Moscow!
I am not an expert but things look rather simple and easy to follow. As people say “ Follow the money”! After WW2 USA enjoyed the nice aftermath of the Marshall Plan, which then morphed into other adventures one of which is the so called “NATO” standard that force all new and existing countries to “renew and replace” their current military equipment and also to pledge yearly portions of their GDP to the alliance. All this money and more have been going to the military complex and the corporations. The exact same complex that needs conflicts to prosper and which we were all warned about by a certain American president. Now most recently we can see who owns the biggest companies in that military complex (Bl@ck Rock), let’s also have a look at the companies that sign agreements to “invest and recover” Ukraine after the conflict? Who owns the companies that bought the richest soil/land in maybe the whole Europe? Let’s have a look at all the conflict zones of the last 20-30 years and look what they have in common and which companies operate their national resources. I am sry if I made mistakes English is not my first language. May God bless and protect us all. Let us all enjoy peace✌️❤.
Sounds pretty good to me. We Anglos historically have had a neurotic silliness over talking about money. As if its in bad taste! And the richer they are the more tasteless it is to refer to the fact. Either persons or big countries. You are right and those facts should be shouted from every rooftop. It also just may have something to do with the hysteria over socialism or godless communism - their whole evil system is founded on the analysis of the movements of money! Like deliberately farting in church.
English is fine; argument on target ... but I think US foreign policy has (particularly after 1990) a neurotic, corrupt bent, which has not corrected after the US invaded Iraq under false pretenses.
I wonder if Ukraine ever wakes up and realizes it has been played by the West, and especially by the US/UK.
Likewise Europe.
We all want Ukraine to wake and realise they're being used for US policy objectives
It is hard to learn a lesson when you wake up dead.
@@Fredmayveyou are right. Will Europe wake up one day, before it's too late?
Ukraine is no angel..it is using everyone else.
Wow, Awesome, Pascal, having as much credibility and credentials on the Ukraine issue as you can pack into an hour.
Excellent! This discussion is what the West needs right now. Professor Glenn Diesen, whose work has been discussed on this channel before, has some excellent comments on what comes after Western hegemony.
NO TO NATO!
"It matters not what puppet is placed upon the throne, he who controls the money supply, controls the Empire"
NATO has been an aggressive alliance since early 1990’s, acting on behalf of USA political establishment.
Russia has always been making mess in Eastern Euroe and Eastern Euroeans were fed up for a reason. They owe Russia nothng. They are not Russias slaves anymore. Nato did not invade Russia. utin simply wanst Ukraine and if Ukraine had been in Nato, he would have never been able to annex it. Nato is an excuse.
Nato agresion against Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Irak, Iran, libia, Siriya.....
Nato never hurt Russia. Russia has never been a friendly neighbour.
@@Blanka1100I think you’ve commented on everything single comment on here.
look into Operation Gladio and the stay-behind armies. NATO acted covertly throughout the Cold War, namely in Italy, France, Turkey, and Greece.
Super Big MEARSHEIMER FAN HERE !! please invite him often he’s the best predictor of affairs❤️❤️❤️❤️🙏👑👑👑
Mearsheimer still live in the Sovjet world, just like Putin
@@nkosipwl.......the ipocresy and arrogance blinds people 😮 professor Mearsharmer is realist and imparcial
Mearsheimer should finnally notice that Russia's Eastern European neighbours have rights and agenda too and their freedom matters.
I'm sure it's just a coincidence : Adolf Heusinger, Hitler's Chief of Staff, became Chairman of the NATO Military Committee, 1961-1964 Hans Speidel, Rommel's Chief of Staff, became Commander in Chief of NATO Forces Central Europe, 1957-1963 Johannes Steinhoff, Luftwaffe fighter ace, became Chairman of the NATO Military Committee, 1971-1974 Johan von Kielmansegg, General Staff Officer Wehrmacht High Command, became NATO Commander Allied Forces Central Europe, 1966-1968 Ernst Faber, Lt Col Wehrmacht General Staff, became Commander in Chief NATO Forces Central Europe, 1973-1975 Karl Schnell, First General Staff Officer 76th Panzer Corps, became Commander in Chief NATO Forces Central Europe, 1975-1977 Franz-Joseph Schulze, Senior Lieutenant Luftwaffe, became Commander in Chief NATO Forces Central Europe, 1977-1979 Ferdinand von Senger und Etterlin, Adjutant Wehrmacht High Command, became Commander in Chief NATO Forces Central Europe, 1979-1983
American Credo: They might be bastards, but they are our bastards.
History lesson for me, thankx
SS by a different name.
@@johannespaulfrank3441 ahh. That's a matter of perspective at the moment but isn't it
Never forget NATO's REAL PURPOSE, according to its first Secretary Lord Ismay: "NATO's purpose is to keep Germany DOWN, Russia OUT, and the US IN". That is apparently true to this day and NATO is meeting this purpose adroitly!
When the Warsaw Pact was dissolved in 1991, NATO didn’t follow through, even though it outlived its usefulness. Instead of dissolving itself, NATO started its eastward expansion. New members were perfect clients for the military industrial complex. That’s the reason why we have gotten to this point.
People like Professors Mearshimer and Jeffrey Sachs have educated me on NATO, and how George HW Bush and James Baker promised Gorbachev that NATO would not be expanded, but every president beginning to Clinton reneged on that promise and created a very dangerous world, all to benefit the defense contractors. If not for people such as those on this panel, I would still be listening and believing the neocons and MSM that NATO is an organization of peace and should be expanded forever.
@@nikita-dh5je There is no paper signed not to expand Nato east that you can show me and russia is not Eastern Europe's master to decide about it. If russia was a good neighbour, my country of Poland would have no need to apply for Nato membership in order to be safe. We know Russia better than you or JM ever will. Stop blaming a victim for calling the police.
Bravo Pascal for this talk!!! And most of all thank you to all those who participated in making this illustrious panel happen. This said, it could be interesting to have someone with an oposite opinion, and to explain why they believe so.
To justify it's existence NATO has been looking for conflicts since the end of the Cold War, Reviving a conflict with Russia was their greatest ambition -- thus guaranteeing that ALL Nations are coerced into squandering their wealth on weapons etc.for the forseeable future -- which could be quite short if it gets out of hand.
Never forget NATO's REAL PURPOSE, according to its first Secretary Lord Ismay: "NATO's purpose is to keep Germany DOWN, Russia OUT, and the US IN". That is apparently true to this day and NATO is meeting this purpose adroitly!
Russia attacked Ukraine. NATO did not attack Russia.
@@browngreen933 reckless NATO expansion caused the war in Ukraine. NATO intends to fight Russia to the very last Ukrainian.
Don’t forget Ukraine started it with the approval of the USA around 2015!
@@browngreen933lol you're funny, I Guess you haven't been paying attention.
Pascal's podcasts are spot on and all of the guests have excellent points. The European people are very sensible and would prefer to cooperate with Russia and the rest of the world and not make war with anyone. Our leaders serve the US and not our people. Germany have suffered the most and I can't believe they put up with all of this.
SOOO TRUE!
Do you care about Eastern Europeans voice in all of this? Do you have any clue about Eastern Europe's history?
The very idear of NATO was to make sure that peace was mantained in Europe. The major problem with tnis is as simple fact that tends to get overlooked, that being the simple fact that the biggests say about Europe quickly because something run by the U.S. who with all the good will on earth is NOT part of nato, althought the accronim refers to the NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY ORGANIZATION. But the fact that the U.S. is not a part of Europe is something that really does effect a lot of things. For a start, the biggest thing to effect tbis is that there are a load of different currancies involved in Europe, secondly at the time, there was also a much bigger choice of governments involvec in Europe, where as even at the time the U.S. had already settled into a two party system, this plays a big part in why the organization really has struggled from the start. Being run by the U.S. in the main , did not sit well for those in Europe as from day one the U.S. had decided that it held the high ground and in most cases, because of money, always had tbe idear that they had the bigger say. As history shows, the end of world war two was in the mind of America atributed to them because it was their production of arms that supplied Europe to conclude the war. This in itself is very misleading as the real facts show beyond doubt that the biggest part played in this conflict was in fact provided by RUSSIA , not the arms but most ceetainly the forces, this came at a huge cost to this country more than any other country in the world, a cost of twenty eight million lives which is a horrific number of people to lose. Despitte all their losx, it was in fact Russia who were the first to reach Berlin by almost two weeks, something that we are all likely to be u aware of if the films that followed tended to indicate and did in fact in many ways efdect tbe recording of history. The part that is also kept very quiet aboiut was tbe fact fhat if the U,S, had gotten their way, the war would have continued, only this time it was to also take on Russia as a continuation of the war. Today, the world finds itself still somewhere at war with someone, the only major change being that the countrries that make up Europe were no longer the batle field. At the time of the fall of communism, the reunification of Germany, which involved the dismanteling of the warsaw pack, on the agreement that NATO most notably America, who even then had more people involved in bases around the world, that any other country on the planet, and this was something that just kept growing by the year. The reunification of Germany was on the agreement that NATO , ( mainly the U.S.) would stop the movement of these bases and also the atitude of the word ENERMY , so dismanteling the Warsaw pack should have seen a holt in this exspansionism as far as the oush towards the east, this, despite a promise, made a lot more than once the push continued, and any idear of turning this into a conflict because of the breaking of this promise on a lot more than one or two cases. Meanwhile, the U.S. also had another country not that far from the U.S. that also had a different form of government so was straight away considered an enermy even throught it in fact never did anything to the U,S. Had regardlessly been labeled Enermy, and created unrest in both areas. The powers that be in The U.S. decided to take matters into its own hand again by using a false flag operation which went very wrong, basically because it was undertaken by organizations within the U.S. such as the C,I.A, this instance was known as the bay of pigs wgere american troops tried to depose the leader of Cuba by killing him which was nothing to do with NATO but by the action, was something that clearly members of NATO were well aware of. This was taking place wbile at the same time, the oush eastward was still underway, the most common way was by putting misslie bases around any country that the U,S. Deemed enermy, so the U.S. had put yet anotber base in Turkey abd Italy, an action that angered Russia, who looked at what was in fact going on, had created a situation where atitudes has been i flamed like Cuba, who when approached were willing to allow Russia to do the same as the Americans and put a base in Cuba i ncluding missiles. This turn out to be something that almost took the world, because of the NATO treaty to the rink of war, only this time it involved nuclear weaponry. Despite the story that came from the U.S. that tbey had by the fact that tbey were the most powerful country, and Russia had backed down, was certainly not the case, in reality what did happen was that Russia pointed out that if its O.K. cor you to put bases and missiles where you like the it goes for everyone else. The conflict was avoided by common sence to a point, that being Russia said that is the U.S. removed its threatening missils out of Turkey then Russia would remove its missiles from Cuba. This happened but clearly because it was always made out that Russia had backed down and America won, which can now be clearly seem that far from America being the victor it was a case of sanity ruling the day, sadly we can look back and see for ourselves that it certainly was onlynthe day because the U.S. still continued to put bases wherevthey were not wanted, and to this day has not woken up to the fact that this agression is creating situations that still crsate adversaries by doing so. Today we see tbiscstill very much in progress, that is in fact the very real reason why we see the conflict in Ukraine, the idea of Ukraine becoming part of NATO are still very much a faulshood to gain entry into the country to put more bases on tbe Russian boarder, which is the bottom line about the whole affair. Russia has pojnted out that tbis is again the breaking of promises made about the none exspansion of NATO eastward, and a clear and outright threat to thecsecurity od Russia, Everyone is aware that this is the real truth but nobody has tbe guts to make this a matter for the rest of the world to reconize the truth as made clear by Russia, and some effort made by all others to bring the fact very much into the open world wide, and standing up and saying this has got to stop, we wil. Not be party to the exsansion of one country using outright lies to achive its own goals. The problem vety slowly, is becoming know by the rest of the World who have at many stages been lied to by the west. The conflict we now see in Ukraine did not start in 2022, it started nearly twenty years before with tbe U,S. Putting C.I.A.groups into Ukraine with the purpose of creating unrest in the area where there was no unrest, The bases the U.S. wanted to put there were not in Ukraine S such, they were bases in EAST Ukraine i.e. on the Russian boarder, in other words a threat to Russian security plain and simple, for which, Russia has every right to protect its boarder and any threat that it involves. This was, if people had taken the time to look, would have been very much aware that thecway it unfolded was in fact very clear, thevconflict started when those in east Ukraine became aware that firstly, America had forced out a kegal government for tbeit own purposes and had plans to put U.S. bases in EAST UKRAINE , their homeland, so the fact that the U.S. paid five billion dollars to a neo nazi group to overthrow tbe government and the moment they pojnted out that they were aware that any base would be on their property, not west Ukraine but east Ukraine. Many even to this day seem to think this conflict started in 2022, when the facts are that it started i 2014 and fo eight years solid, west Ukraine, paid for by tbe U.S. bombed and shelled east Ukraine for a solid eight years, therecwere no mention about those poor Ukraine people for the whole of tnose eight years, a period longer than either world war, the death toll is to this day still not really known. So part from the lies told about this, America( government) was in fact lying its head off to the whole world, the facts are now coming out as to the truth, and also unvailing the trilogy of lies told by the U.S. about the whole matter, and the point that it is they who have bought the world, YET AGAIN to the point of nuclear war, something the world deserves a full apology from the U.S. for, and a public aknowledgement that should they ever try this again it will be they that tbe world comes down on with its full collective might, thos must stop!!!!
Never forget NATO's REAL PURPOSE, according to its first Secretary Lord Ismay: "NATO's purpose is to keep Germany DOWN, Russia OUT, and the US IN". That is apparently true to this day and NATO is meeting this purpose adroitly!
What I can't understand is why can't Nato let Russians decide on their own. Even guests on this channel have an issue with the Russian elections, like the German lady before. What Europe and the US must understand is that Russians want to be strong and prosperous. They like Putin because he gave them that. That has pros and cons, especially if he doesn't find a successor. However, it's not what we want them to be it's what they want. Margarita simonyan in that epic BBC clip straight up gave the answer, " Why do we have to choose another opponent because you want to". And that's coming from the west, which btw like I said in the Duran, they don't have democracy like my ancestors in Athens invented. They have oligarchy just like Sparta had.
Russia has no cultural history of democracy, but they have made great progress toward it.
@@macrosense Regardless, it's their choice.
@@macrosense If democracy is what Americans, British and Israelis have, I don't want it.
"It matters not what puppet is placed upon the throne, he who controls the money supply, controls the Empire"
@adamson760 I don't know this quote and with what do you want to relate it too
Excellent conversation.
What a panel!!! Good work Pascal and the other people organizing such debate. We need more talk and debate before taking decisions that might not be the best ones. Hope the message comes across to more people and better decision makers are elected.
If only our political elites would listen to peace.
Bonjour Pascal ! Un grand merci encore une fois pour ce programme formidable ! FG
NATO is quite happy to have plebiscites when it suits them ie Kosovo which has always been Serbian land for centuries but won't apply the same standards for the Kosovans to majority ethnic Russian areas like Donetsk and Luhansk. Let them have a referendum monitored by the UN and if they want to join with Russia let them. Thousands of lives lost on both sides so that the great Game can continue. Europe's biggest threat is not from Russia but elsewhere and a demographic timebomb.
Eu nato hypocrisy double standards
I had an old friend, an old gold miner- who ended up at Sling Camp, England at the end of 1918. He believed that Winston Churchill wanted to turn the guns on Russia. Old Norm said that the troops were so war weary- there was no heart in that. Fact is that Russian and China were our allies- with out whom New Zealand would have been overrun. I am no supporter of dictatorship- but why were we expected to hate them? Surely that stance simply hardened and polarised attitudes and actions?
one mans dictatorship, another man's usuka agreement done behind the people's backs.
It is high time we made concerted efforts to avoid mistakes of the past. I'm sure I'm voicing many in saying that this type of intellectual leadership is desired and greatly appreciated by the public.
I do NOT agree that Russia would want to upset the West when they are doing this for themselves!!
What a brilliant panel. Thank you all
Extremely interesting. Very important minds, thank you.
I like how Mearsheimer uses expression like "Giving them the high sign". He's an academic building on a pretty simplified concept, although one well proven since olden times. Still, he is profiled by exposing the Israel lobby in the US, which is anathema to the realist idea of states only looking to their own national interests. He combines (partially contradicting) abstract but strict theories with practical realities, all in a logical strict way. Of course it doesn't provide the full picture, no academic could possibly do that. He raises questions for everyone to ponder. And his selectively casual language about the remaining mess of the politicians actual behavior, fits excellently with what he explains. I'd say that this Mearsheimer guy knows what he's doing! He draws the conclusions that can reliably be drawn. Then only the blancs remain to be filled in for those who can. What a contrast to those idiots who fanatically proclaim that this and that spceifics WILL happen (like "Ukraine has won the war" et cetera).
not really. it is realistic to understand that no man, or nation, is an island, even one surrounded by water. any state's own national interests will be affected by what goes on elsewhere and if we try to pretend it isn't so we will have trouble sneaking up on us from every angle.
In my lifetime no Western nation has done anything that is in its interest. That is impossible because they are all democracies. A democracy is by definition where each individual uses state violence to loot every other individual without possibility to care for the common good. It is only with absolute monarchy that a nation can act in its best interest. Mearshemers academic theory worked fine in Europe until the 19th century. And somehow he seems to understand that since he describes the democracy of the Israel lobby in the USA. @@jillfryer6699
He also could not care less and Eastern Europeans and their agenda and voice in all of this.
Winning the second world produced an ego in the US that we can't seem to shed. Exceptionalism hasn't been warranted since then IMO.
Did they really "win"the second world war?
Do you know what the us produced during ww2? They have all the right to have an ego. They defeated the Germans and the Japanese.
@@kladblok2729 I was born in 41. I grew up there during a time I could be proud of. There have been several wars since then and the US hasn't won any of them. I'm ashamed of the shithole.
@@kladblok2729the soviets defeated the Germans.
Pascal, from MexCity, I enjoy a lot watching your shows and this time your invited top top intellectuals. Hopefully next time Mrs Katrina can join in full. I know her since she is the widow of Steve Cohen, one the top Russian specialists in USA
a fantastic discussion, of the highest order. I commend all the participants, it was thoughtful and (of course!) I agree with every word. I wrote an 80 page dissertation after a year at the Atlantic Council (1999-2000) that NATO expansion was a horrendous mistake, that the rewrite of the NATO rules that converted it legally to an aggressive organization and its initial workout in Kosovo would have a profound impact on Russia's domestic and foreign policies. I was the only civilian and most were up and coming US military officers. They hated what I wrote and they hated me for writing it. It was offensive and ugly and predictive of what was to come for the world and my country.
Thank you so much!
Never forget NATO's REAL PURPOSE, according to its first Secretary Lord Ismay: "NATO's purpose is to keep Germany DOWN, Russia OUT, and the US IN". That is apparently true to this day and NATO is meeting this purpose adroitly!
I find it worrying, that to some people in the west, it was a mistake to let eastern europe join nato when we fled the USSR after years of totalitarian occupation. This is the only thing that safeguards my country from Russia, and you want to remove it, you say inviting us was a mistake. It feels very hostile, you know.
@@janb3625 what is safeguarding Armenia from Russia? And Azerbaijan? What is safeguarding the unoccupied part of Georgia? What is safeguarding Turkmenistan? Oh and Mongolia? How is Mongolia save from Russia? So many mysteries… 🤔
@@janb3625 You have it backwards: the belligerent encroachment of NATO into Eastern Europe after 1991 which is obviously a major security concern for Russia, a country that has suffered multiple devastating invasions, is the cause of this instability. Russia has every right to shared security and every reason to not trust US/NATO. NATO now exists to confront the threats created by.....NATO.
«Если ты выстрелишь в прошлое из пистолета, будущее выстрелит в тебя из пушки.» *** Европейские "влажные мечты" - (детский) сад против России От гитлеровской Крепости Европа (Festung Europa) до боррелёвского "цветущего eвропейского сада". От майдановской "революции достоинства" до пригожинского "марша справедливости"... Hу что ж, западные "друзья"... в Mocквe кино не будет. *** "Как вожделенно жаждет век Нащупать брешь у нас в цепочке Возьмемся за руки друзья Возьмемся за руки друзья Чтоб не пропасть поодиночке..." автор: Булат Окуджава *** Окно Овертона на территории постсоветской Украине открывалось медленно. Hашумевшая, в общем-то, пустая книжонка - бывшeгo членa ЦК КПУ - панa Кучмы "написанная им" в 2003 году "Украина не Россия" на наших глазах пeревоплотилась в жизнеспособную геополитическую идеологему "Украина - анти-Россия". Деруссификация заменила декоммунизацию и снежным комом посыпались кричалки: "Хто не скаче, той москаль", "Москаляку на гілляку", "Москалів на ножі" и "Десять тысяч за москаля". "Убей в себе русского" cтaло "убей русского вокруг себя". Украинцы к определению "титульная нация" - в "лучших” традициях гитлеровских Нюрнбергских расовых законов - добавили себе новое: "первосортная". *** "У нас украинцев другой генетический код." - Вадим Карасьов. (Пане Карасьов, перш ніж ви почнете масштабне вимірювання черепів громадян України пропоную вам дослідити генетику вашого прізвища.) Сейчас у нас (как и в Югославии) братубийственная война на радость западным циничным и беcпринципным шакалам. Запад пошагово работает по методичке: 1) Развал соцлагеря и Варшавского договора. 2) Развал СССР 3) Развал России У них два запасных плана: a) Oтдать России 20 процентов Украины а остальное 80% превратить в антироссийскую крепость/таpaн НАТО. б) В случае пoбеды России у "коллективного Запада" не менее коварный сценарий те. превращение территории Украины в "чемодан без ручки" а точнее в Афганистан 2.0 ("forever war"), а её население в "укроталибан". Даже после полного освобождения Украины от нацизма придётся нам жить с социумом, где в каждой семье есть погибшие в этой братоубийственной войне. Кто может нам гарантировать, что после победной СВО та же ситуативно “дружеская“ по отношению к России, демилитаризованная, денацифизированная, ”внеблоковская”, в менее или более обрезаном теpриториальном виде - независимая Украина c вpeменем не пойдёт по геополитическим тропам ещё не так давно "безoбидной", "нейтральной" Финляндии? С этими прoблeмами придётся разбираться не только нашим детям и внукам но и правнукам. 2 Мая 2014 в Одессе была пройдена точка невозврата. Украинцы превратились из националистов в нацистов под аплодисменты майданных СМИ и при полном молчании Западных правозащитников. С реакцией России в Европе уже никто не считался. Нам всем начиная с верховных государственныx властей, военноначальникoв, дипломатoв, работникoв науки, культуры и искусства, бизнесменoв и олигархoв, кончая на так называемых ЛОМ-аx надо обязательно провести работу над ошибками и тщательное исследование совести. Наши западные "партнёры" и наши внутренние враги наконец-то сбросили маски и мы все уже знайем "Хуйз ху". Независимо от планов обитателей заброшенного, заросшeго сорняками западноевропейского сада и их циничных заокеанских садоводов нам остаётся сплочение рядов и сопротивление. Мы можем полагаться лишь на самих себя. Hам отступать некуда. Ни шагу назад! B cлyчae Минскa 3.0 или Стамбулa 2.0 Путина народ не простит. Многострадальный Донецк это окровавленный щит России. Taм наша душа, сердце и... совесть. Вставай Hарoд! Вставай Cтрана огромная, прежде чем наши враги заставят нас обозначать очередные yже нe "красные" a "кoричнeвые линнии" на нашем носу! Запад совершенно не намерен играть с нами по правилам. После памятной речи Путина в Мюнхене в одном из американских журналов я наткнулась на опрос насчёт самого "уродливого” памятника-монумента на нашей планете. Как думаете какой памятник оказалця победителем? Думаю, что - даже в нынешнем геополитической климате - вы никогда не угадаете. Памятник-ансамбль «Родина-мать зовет!» на Мамаевом кургане посвящённый героям Сталинградской битвы. PS >>>... разговоры о геноциде в Донбассе "смехотворны"
Термин титульная нация - это официальный термин Советского Союза.
Твое обида на Украинцев иррациональная. Русские как этническая группа более успешная и многочисленная чем Украинцы. Ложный комплекс жертвы, который способствует вражде.
All of the panelists are exactly correct their assessments as to what has occurred as well as that which should done to try to remedy the mess that we’ve created. The panelists, along with those who are like minded, should be running the show.
Physiology of Plunder When Plunder Becomes A Way Of Life For A Group Of Men In A Society that is a Language Group Of Men In A Society,Over The Course Of Time They Create For Themselves A Legal System That Authorizes It And A Moral Code That Glorifies It. Fre'de'ric Basiat
why all the capitals?
We have been our own worst enemy ever since 1990, or rather the U.S. government's foreign policy has been America's worst enemy. I don't see any hope, do you? "We are now as bourgeois as you. We are a market economy. There is no Communist Party power. Let's negotiate." (Vladimir Putin)
It's important that your voices of reason are made available for the masses to hear and take into consideration. It's the only way we can begin to substantively change misguided perceptions.
How is the CIA legally funded by the US? This would be another great topic by your Chanel, Pascal. ❤
jpf, it is funded by the US Congress. Legally. To conduct operations which are usually illegal, and therefore must be secret.
NATO : Not Accountable To Oppression O can also stand for Occupation, Obstruction, Orders. Take your pick.
Others
Nice! 👍
Nuclear Armed Terrorist Organization
@@Mondegreen2020 Nice catch. I missed the most obvious one there.
NATO: Nuclear Annihilation Threatening Organization.
Thank you gentlemen. Thank one and all who made this superb conversation possible. Best wishes. Carry on.
As a European citizen I feel shame and indignation regarding the present generation of "leaders" in our countries, who (following instructions from the Pentagon and the White House) are acting against their own national interests. I remember when the Warsaw Pact countries were described as "satellites" of the USSR, today that same word can be used to describe Europe's relationship of subordination and subjection to the United States.
Screw NATO
Second that.
Outstanding Pascal. Informative and thought provoking. Thank you!
Fascinatig. Thank you Pascal.
Congratulations to Pascal for this breathtaking panel. All your hard work is being recognzied and strives to make our world safer.
Excelent panel .... Thanks for sharing
Thank you. Amazing. From ireland.
Excellent round table. Thank you, Pascal. And my praise to your guests, Ambassador Matlock and professors Mearsheimer and Lieven, who were extremely pedagogical and honest. If only Western 'leaders" would listen!!
A great interview proves again that wisdom comes with Age!!!!!
Thank you Pascal for your platform
Excelent! Thank you very much. Greetings from Mexico.
Great stuff Pascal. On a personal note, congratulations to that. Mustve been a great feeling to host this stacked talk haha. Well deserved to get this opportunity, youre always doing quality work. P.s. im writing this during the intro to the talk, you better dont disappoint me, nach all den schönen Komplimenten hahaha
Excellent lineup. Well done 👍
shame NATO
Amazing
Dear Pascal, to discuss these subjects without deepening in why and to what groups' interest policies are being applied, results in all participants' closing remarks (no strategy for change). But even within your frame, I strongly suggest that you bring people outside eurocentric sphere: Kishor Mahbubani, even Pepe Escobar, Vijay Prashad, and in Europe, people like Glenn Diesel with whom you might have had interview.
Thank you , you bring the grains of hope . The wind of change .Even if it is too early to say peace is in the air , you are its forerunners .
Not that it would make a difference to the outcome in a Russian victory. But Ukraine in NATO would have presumably allowed NATO ground troops to formally intervene. But it would not have mattered to the outcome.
Imagine how horrible it would have been for Ukraine if they had decided to be NEUTRAL.
War forever and no pipelines! American people understand that. Russia and Europe do too, now.
lol
Excellent discussion! I’m in the U.S. and a veteran of the U.S. war against the people of Viet Nam.
Prof. van den Heuvel - renowed scholar and the widow of the late and great Prof. Cohen!
Great faculty and discussions
Excellent comments!
True strength proves itself by those practicing 'Live & Let Live'.
Really enjoyed and learned a lot from this excellent panel. Thank you
In our democratic liberal capitalism societies one major player of any societal chsnges are the big investors class. I supposed that the big investor class of Europe see a bleak future for their industrial economy. They own the patents for a lot of top industrial processes (knowledge based economy). They own a lot of high end factories (secondary sector) but they have depleted all their natural ressources for their industrial base. So they have to import evrything at world''s prices to feed their machnes and their workforce. So their plan with the collapse of the soviet union was to implement a ultra-liberal economy in Russia and take control/ownership of all the Russian natural ressources assets that could help them go on their 10% growth of Capital until the end of the 21st Century. But Putin came in and restored the previous soviet state ownership of a lot of industrial key sectors including energy. The only way they can get back the future they dreamed of is a total regime change of Putin's strategy of governance by all means at their disposal.
These conflicts are about resources. We disguise it as spreading democracy and Liberal values (whatever that means) but it is undoubtedly about the corporations that push our leaders into making decisions that will benefit the corporations. You can see that with the deals that were signed in Ukraine.
This conflict seems to be becoming a repeat of the Peloponnesian War, some 2500 years later.
Was it also a proxy war?
Throughout the 2000s and 2010s, Russian officials would consistently use the term “western partners” when referring to NATO members, and it used to infuriate me to no end, because I knew back then that NATO was not a rational, nor benevolent actor. I saw this conflict coming when Qaddafi was murdered by NATO assets. The only things I got wrong were: a) thinking that Georgia was going to be the proxy. B) that Germany would leave NATO, and possibly realign with Russia. Needless to say, Russian officials will never use that “western partners” term, ever again.
“Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win” ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Also celebrating their 75th anniversary is the WHO. Now, why did they grant themselves legal immunity? Article: Breaking History Ep 35: How NATO’s Secret Armies Took over US Military-Intelligence w/ Cynthia Chung
I appreciate all these of distinguished speakers and all that is said here but nowhere is it discussed or explained how a few dozen, or a few hundred individuals can choreograph vast populations into situations of such peril, and possible annihilation. Who really is driving this situation ?
Never forget NATO's REAL PURPOSE, according to its first Secretary Lord Ismay: "NATO's purpose is to keep Germany DOWN, Russia OUT, and the US IN". That is apparently true to this day and NATO is meeting this purpose adroitly!
Anatol Lieven hits a number of points out of the park: Q. "What sort of Defensive alliance creates the conditions" which it's supposed to defend against? A. "An institution which wishes to survive."
Praetorian Guard of Europe.
Moment of silence and prayers for half a million innocent souls murdered by NATO since 1949 😢
Amen
Regardless what do minority wishes most of people are under delusion that Russia is a threat which was created over long time through education ,propaganda and entertainment industry and that majority is proud of Nato and sees it as a very important western like peace keeping organization ,that is enough for Nato to keep growing. How can you change that?
Some people literally worry about peace like some Neapolitans literally worry about Vesuvius. Actual versus rhetoric, worry.
"Battle not with monsters lest ye become a monster, and if you stare into the Abyss then the Abyss stares into you ...." Friedrich Nietzsche.
Right on 👍🏾 target. Was already a support & fan of Professor John M. Now add Ambassador Jack F. Matlock Jr. Amb Matlock is approaching 100 yrs old. Still a level headed intellectual statesman! Hats off also to AL and the moderator too. #ACommn1Persptive
Gotta love that map on Maersheimer's wall there. A snapshot in time when Russia seemed to control all of Finland, the Baltics and Ukraine... Was that a practical joke perhaps?
Nazi war criminals were almost never put on trial for their crimes, but instead were installed in top positions in NATO, in the western German government, army, industry and western German society at large. The most famous of them was Adolf Heusinger, chief of the Operationsabteilung from 1940-1944. He was actually Hitler's chief of staff and helped plan the Nazi’s invasions of Poland, Norway, Denmark, and France. He was promoted to colonel on August 1, 1940 and became chief of the Operationsabteilung in October 1940. After the war, this German war criminal, the man who helped Hitler plan and execute his invasion of neighboring countries which directly led to the deaths of millions of people, was not even put on trial, quite contrary he was allowed to take over the newly established West German army, the "Bundeswehr". In 1961, Heusinger was made the Chairman of the NATO Military Committee (essentially he was NATO's chief of staff). He served in that capacity until 1964. General Hans Speidel, a Nazi general who was Erwin Rommel’s chief of staff during WWII. After the war he served in the Western German army and became the Supreme Commander of NATO’s ground forces in Central Europe from 1957-1963. Johannes Steinhoff, Luftwaffe fighter pilot during WWII and recipient of the Knights Cross of the Iron across (the Nazi military’s highest award), was Chairman of the NATO Military Committee 1971-1974 (among other NATO positions beforehand). Johann von Kielmansegg, General Staff officer to the High Command of the Wehrmacht 1942-1944, was NATO's Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1967-1968. Ernst Ferber, a Major in the Wehrmacht and group leader of the organizational department of the Supreme Command of the Army (Wehrmacht) from 1943-1945 and recipient of the Iron Cross 1st Class, was NATO's Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe from 1973-1975. Karl Schnell, battery chief in the Western campaign in 1940/later First General Staff Officer of the LXXVI Panzer Corps in 1944 and recipient of the Iron Cross 2nd Class, was NATO's Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe from 1975-1977. Franz Joseph Schulze, a Lieutenant in the reserve and Chief of the 3rd Battery of the Flak Storm Regiment 241 and recipient of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross in 1944, was NATO's Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe from 1977-1979. Ferdinand von Senger und Etterlin; Lieutenant of 24th Panzer Division in the German 6th Army, participant in the Battle of Stalingrad, adjutant to Army High Command, and recipient of the German Cross in gold, was NATO's Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1979-1983. There were at least two dozens such former Nazi high level officers in NATO’s ranking. Here’s a statement by United States senator Harry S. Truman in 1941 regarding the invasion of the Soviet Union by Nazi Germany and its allies, Italy, Hungary, Finland, and Romania: "If we see that Germany is winning, we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible.” As soon as Germany was defeated, Russia immediately became the enemy of the ruling class in Washington and London. Before the Ukraine war started in 2022, even major mainstream media like BBC and VICE reported the alarming rise of Nazism in Ukraine with Nazi militias like the Right Sector, the C14 and the Azov Battalion. Those documentaries are still available on KZhead: “Ukraine's far-right children's camp” - by The Guardian “Inside A White Supremacist Militia in Ukraine” - by TIME “Neo-Nazi threat in new Ukraine” - by BBC Newsnight Please watch the videos and see how Nazism was nurtured in Ukraine. Now the most interesting bit, the result in the UN General Assembly for [Anti-Nazism Resolution] in 2021. Vote: 130-2. Against: America, Ukraine. See the picture? Some people said this proxy war in Ukraine against Russia started in 2022. Some people said it started in 2014 after the US orchestrated the Maidan coup. Some people said it started in Bucharest in 2008, after NATO chief Jaap de Hoop Scheffer openly said he would like Georgia and Ukraine to join NATO. Some people said it started after 1991 because Victoria Nuland said the US spent 5 Billion dollars since 1991 to put Ukraine in that position (to counter Russia). But as explained by former US Marine Corps officer Carlton Meyer on his channel, it started right after WW II. What is the best tool to take on Russia? Nazis. But unlike in WW II, this time the whole NATO is backing the Nazis. Wasn’t Putin right when he said one of objectives of the SMO in Ukraine was about de-Nazification?
Ie Nazis given a different role..
Oh my God, we are living in a really urgly place. Poor Mankind😢😢😢
Much more relevant than the cosy insider YT chat
Thank you for this detailed account of Nazism perpetuation through NATO and collective West. I think it would be safe to say it is de facto the Fourth Reich disguised as liberal democracies, and the masks are falling off now.
Muh nazi, muh literally Hitler. Endless obsession with WW2 related culture wars is one of the worst aspects of modern political discussions.
Great show Pascal. The EU needs to wake up.
BRILLIANT ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT VIDEO
NATO POLICY TOWARDS RUSSIA IS MAKING RUSSIA STRONGER AND MORE RESURRECTED
58:35 Eyes open on JM. He's a pivoter to Asia. Intelligent & articulate, but still high on realism while stuck at lower levels of Maslow 🤪
He's too much if an appeaser for me
He could not care less about Eastern Europeans and their voice
@@Blanka1100 and your evidence is?.. do you think the USA, NATO or EU care?
Wonderful discussion - thank you all.
great panel, great work, thank you!