Neocons Still Can't Believe Russia Defeated Them | Prof. Nicolai N. Petro
Part 2: • How The War In Ukraine...
Russia surprised itself with its power to withstand western sanctions, absorb all economic and military shocks the West tried to inflict on it, and has come out stronger than ever before from this tragic and unnecessary war. But neocons are still in denial. Well, military realities always win over delusional fantasies. Here's what we've learned about the abilities of what the West used to laugh at as a "gas station dressed up as a country."
In this video I'm talking to Nicolai N. Petro, Professor of Political science at the University of Rhode Island. He is a great expert on Russia and Ukraine, and published just a year ago a wonderful work with the title, “The Tragedy of Ukraine: What Classical Greek Tragedy Can Teach Us About Conflict” (2023). Watch the video about his book here: • The Tragedy of Ukraine...
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Pascal’s academic articles about neutrality studies:
“In Defense of Neutrals: Why They’re More Than Fence Sitter” Foreign Policy, June 6, 2023. foreignpolicy.com/2023/06/06/...
“The Future of Neutrality”. Geneva Center for Security Policy, Policy Briefs, no.4, 2023. ISBN: 978-2-88947-407-3.
“Dual-Neutrality for the Koreas: A Two-Pronged Approach toward Reunification.” Defense & Security Analysis, 2022, doi.org/10.1080/14751798.2022....
“The Politics and Diplomacy of Neutrality.” Oxford Bibliographies in International Relations, New York: Oxford University Press, 2022, doi.org/10.1093/OBO/9780199743...
“Neutrality Studies.” Oxford Research Encyclopedia of International Studies, New York: Oxford University Press, 2022, doi.org/10.1093/acrefore/97801....
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“Going East: Switzerland’s Early Consular Diplomacy toward East and Southeast Asia.” Traverse: Zeitschrift für Geschichte 27 no. 1, 2020, 23-34, doi.org/10.5169/seals-881084
“Violent Conflicts and Neutral Legations: A Case Study of the Spanish and Swiss Legations in Wartime Japan.” New Global Studies 11, no.2, 20 17. 85-100, doi.org/10.1515/ngs-2017-0018
Pascal’s books about neutrality studies:
Lottaz Pascal, and Ingemar Ottosson. Sweden, Japan, and the Long Second World War 1931-1945. London: Routledge, 2021. www.taylorfrancis.com/books/o...
Lottaz Pascal, Heinz Gärtner, and Herbert Reginbogin, eds. Neutral Beyond the Cold: Neutral States and the Post-Cold War International System. Lanham: Lexington Books, 2022, rowman.com/ISBN/9781666901665...
Reginbogin, Herbert, and Pascal Lottaz, eds. Permanent Neutrality: A Model for Peace, Security, and Justice. Lanham: Lexington Books, 2020, rowman.com/ISBN/9781793610287...
Lottaz Pascal, and Herbert Reginbogin, eds. Notions of Neutralities. Lanham: Lexington Books, 2019, rowman.com/ISBN/9781498582261...
How did Russia win? Russia did not lie to itself.
Well, an answer comes at the very end of this interview. Russia won because many Americans are making out like bandits. 1. Weapons makers making and selling weapons. 2. Energy sellers selling energy to replace the flow interrupted from Russia. 3. European industry "enticed" to relocate to N. America. 4. (my opinion) Everyone involved in the flow of weapons and aid gets a cut of that flow. Corruption. 5. (also my point) Building up Russia as an enemy guarantees a larger claim on American output going to war-related activity. 6. (mine also) Fear among American electorate makes them/us easier to manipulate in general, for such goals as surveillance, censorship, suppression of wages, unreasonable "healrh" or "climate" policies, elite control in general. Enough of the American leadership class is still winning such that Russua winning is no more than an inconvenience. When you re-conceive of their primary goal as securing benefits for themselves, this game of understanding foreign or domestic policy-makers gets much easier. To oppose them, relentlessly point out their conflicts of interest and deride their stated goals.
💯
By speaking plainly 🤣
Oh but it did! And at a great measure. By “lying to itself” I meant lying to its people, of course.
West has fallen into the trap of believing it’s own propaganda.
I think this war wasn't about defeating Russia. It was about severing the economic ties between Russia and Europe. United States was worried of loosing control of the European economy. In particular, they were very vocal against the Nord Stream II pipeline and they actually destroyed it. Under this perspective, the war was very successful for the States. The role of Ukraine in all these is to be a pawn in the game. A pawn that had to be sacrificed.
Spot on!!!
A lot of people fell for it. But I guess maybe if more people played chess they would understand tactics better. And if they would read a book or two they might be able to read the unfolding story. And if they went to theatre the might have an idea of the actors and roles involved. The things one could do with a proper education.
The problem with that is it is still filled with foolish American arrogance. True we are scared of Germany and Russia becoming economic partners. What your chess game analogy neglects is sooner or later the German people themselves will come to the correct conclusion that Biden ordered the eco-terrorism on the pipeline, and the German leaders sold out their own people. I think in the long term this was a very bad mistake....we can't shame them into compliance anymore.
Yep
Try explain that to a ukranian, particularly one that lives abroad. Sad!
Russia has a cohesive strategy, while Clown World has a PR strategy.
Yes, of course, I was aware of this too from the first weeks of this escalated war. Kiev is always trying to get PR victories, stories and (in military terms) fairly insignificant advances and wins to pitch these into media campaigns...especially when they need more weapons from the West, when there's a donor conference or a NATO/EU summit coming up, and so on. I mean, who cares in miltary terms about Snake Island? An insignificant rock. But the guy standing on it made a good story, the defiant taunt/last stand, the media love that. The dogs bark at the moon, but the caravan moves on through the desert.
@@Fleur-fg4nrI remember how the russian caravan went all the way to Kiev and back to Russia. Quite an achievement.
Are you really as uninformed as your zero content comment suggests, lol? @@luisangelgonzalezmunoz7071
@@luisangelgonzalezmunoz7071 Minus most of its carts.
@luisangelgonzalezmunoz. I am sorry to learn that after watching news for a 1 year and 10 months, you are still clueless as to why Russia parked a relatively small force outside Kyiv.
Hello from Moscow, Russia. It was interesting to listen. and it is good to know what really open mind people exist on the west.
I am in canada. Much respect here for the russian people. Cheers
@@vaidask4508 the prooaganda is worse in the west
I'm afraid he's not as good as what you think.
west is around 1 billion people. i am sure we are more than 20% who stand with true so with Russia🇷🇺
Thank you President Putin and all the valiant Russian soldiers for bringing FREEDOM TO MANKIND.What a price to pay....but what a priceless gift
lol
Who would have thought that Russia would end the expansion of one of the most destructive empires the planet has seen, and thereby enable the emergence of a pluralistic polypole world model ending the last European imperial model?!
Freedom to mankind by surprise attacking, invading and conquering a free country? More doublspeak.
@@alexandervocelka9125❤ 💯 It's insane! I've been thinking this too!
Nice joke
Russia was always going to win. The US utterly failed to understand the geopolitics.
I suspect that the real players knew Russia was always going to win. Just because you know that doesn't mean you can't find advantage in pretending otherwise for as long as possible. Knowing the inevitable outcome doesn't prevent you from propping up Ukraine as long as possible in an effort to diminish Russia's military and economy. So you talk victory for Ukraine all day long because that's what works best to support your true agenda. Instead of focusing on what America says it is better to focus on what it does. Altruism is perhaps the best public-facing position when behind the scenes you're ruthlessly pursuing national self-interest.
Like they fail to understand the simplest problem.
Russia must get out of all the occupied Muslim republics of the North Caucasus! Nothing is finished yet! still to come. Free Dagestan! Free Chechnya! Free Circassia! Free Palestine! No to Colonialism!
@@CBSRR2025Not occupied, it still is Russia, dumbkoff!!!
I don`t think the US failed to understand. I think they are doing very well economically out of this war. I think they see the money they have donated as a sound investment.
Russia is Russia !!! Do not underestimate ever !!!
Russia is normal while NATO is lgbtq perversion...Russia cannot lose.
People should remember history, and never fight Russia on their home territory because they will lose every single time
@@classics7636 Like in WWI, the Crimean war, the Russo-Japanes war? 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
We underestimated its penchant to act like a fascist thug bully.
@@user-mi2qw3ns4uRussia, of course, has lost in its history. But not the wars, which she considered existential for herself. She won them all
How can a paper dollar economy defeat a resource based economy? The result is obvious.
Not even a paper dollar!
Romanov's extinct. Soviet system collapsed. Meanwhile Putin's terrorist mob state showing cracks. Three cheers for the U.S. dollar. P.S. And one more from putinland.
Because you can't do literally anything without resources and energy? :DDDD
@@sixmillionaccountssilenced6721 Somehow USSR fell apart will whole Mendeleev table at its disposal. Crappy Rushka is even more weaker, corrupt and incompetent than late sovok.
It's not intended to. It's intended to steal wealth until the music stops, during which time new contestants are groomed.
As a (western) European, I'll be forever grateful to Putin if he saves me from the US/NATO.
Just move to Russia, "(western) European".
@@iriemon1796try more you idiotic bot.
@@iriemon1796👎👎👎👎
The USA and the UK created NATO pact to keep Germany(Europe) and Russia separated
Russia has spent its entire history collapsing, fighting, rising, collapsing, being invaded, invading, suffering, slaughtering, collapsing, etc. Constantly. Every single piece of media is mired in cynicism and pessimism, or simply laughing in the face of death. It's older generations suffered through soviet oppression, they and the middle generations suffered through the collapse. The Russian people expect to suffer, expect to scrabble in the dirt. They're used to it. What this means is it is VERY HARD to do to Russians something that hasn't been done to them. Meanwhile the west has no actual idea what misery is like. Kids in the west are killing themselves over bullying. Adults in the west have mental breakdowns over identity politics. The Russians were, and are, mentally prepared to be sanctioned into poverty. The USA is about to burst into flames because the Big Mac is $16. But Russia has spent the last thirty years making friends. Like China. Like India. The west has spent the last thirty years making everyone real tired of their lecturing.
"Soviet oppression." Is that when they Russians and their satellites had an unprecedented raising of their living standards, no more famines, life expectancy, literacy...?
@@view1st No I mean a totalitarian police state. The Soviet Union was oppressive, there's no denying it. It's not black and white. It did some good through doing some bad. And it turns out a totalitarian police state is actually the best at teaching its people to work through adversity, because globally the USA is a totalitarian police state dominating the rest of us. And the Russians know how to survive totalitarianism.
All those former satellite countries now bemoaning their history seem not to understand what's awaiting them when they are sacrificed for the good of the western elites. @@view1st
@thelegendofthedogfacedwoma3708 very well put!
@@view1stmixed “blessing”-at great cost, especially considering the 35-60 million people repressions-genocide during the 30’s & 40’s (not including 27-32 million killed in WWII) 1920’s was the famine which Soviet Union, like Communist China went through. Only in late 50’s after Stalin died, did Khrushchev introduce a slight thaw (оттепель). But 2-6 hours in cues waiting for bread & subhuman living in communal spaces (коммуналки) was very much life in Soviet Union. And you’re right as well, highest standard of education in the world-best system. The best universal free Health Care.
This is fascinating. I was told that Putin was running out of armor giving his men airsoft pads, using WW2 bolt action rifles, lost half of his men, and had been embarrassed on the world stage, Have we been lied to this whole time? 😅
The longer it goes on, the more questions I have.
"4 weeks into the war and Russia will capitulate." - That was the cynical lie I was hearing over and over. This assumption was made on the basis of Russian GDP. People still don't understand that GDP barely means anythin.
@@OverG88 People don't understand what it means. It means a valuation of what is produced
short answer: Yes
No not completely.
Over 18 Countries + Japan and South Korea have been fighting Russia with sanctions, sending their best weapons, and mercenaries, yet not only Russia is still standing, but Russia is defeating them all on the battle fields, also their sanctions failed to slow than Russian economy, and it's the European Countries which are rather bleeding badly with uncontrollable inflations, bad and décline economic growth. On the other hand, the Russian currency is doing better prior to the conflict. Its economy is said to even grow over 5% next year. It's a sign that the HAND OF GOD is fighting for the Russians against the 3vil
56 Countries.
Have you checked the data lately? Russia's economy is going down the toilet. The ruble is worthless, inflation is raging, interest rates are at 15%, its oil revenues have tanked, and its reserves are dwindling. It is pulling out T-55s and relying on fellow fascist states NK and Iran for its ammo and weapons. Putin cannot sustain this war, which is why the Russian bots and propaganda tools are doing overtime claiming Ukraine has lost and hoping the free West should abandon it.
bs
Orthodox Christians and Muslims are best friends. Hand of God. ❤❤❤
The amount of propaganda and lack understanding of basic principles of economy clearly shows in your comment.
34 NATO countries against 1 and they still lost……
Really? Putin wanted the whole thing, now he's struggling to hold onto just a small piece.
@@chrispreston714 Really? It’s time you started paying actual attention to what is happening. ukraine is seriously losing this war. The media won’t even admit this, as the last 2 years they told us it was 🇷🇺 Russia losing. It’s near impossible to find ukraine news anymore because of how bad they’re losing. Wake up buddy. Or continue to look like the village idiot who, because of cognitive dissonance can’t see what is really happening. Or maybe you should just continue to keep sending your money. ukraine needs more of your money. Me? Fuck that, no more money for ukraine. Zelinsky just bought 2 yachts with Western money for $75 million. Corruption to the extreme. Wake up dude……….
@@chrispreston71434 Against 1 yet outfought and defeated them, they wanted to loot russia but got reality check.
@@chrispreston714putin wanted the people in the donbass to live their lives. He waited 8 years to do this. 15000 civilians died in donbass. He liberated them from the nazi regime in ukraine and the western backers...
@@chrispreston714 Putin has never said a word about territories - he always talks only about people. Therefore, more Ukrainian refugees went to Russia than to all Western countries combined.
The war could have been avoided. Everyone knew this.
600,000 murders.
Nog really. The Ukrainians declared war on Russia long before the SMO. They are poisoned by ideas of superiority and belief in ultimate victory that compensates for setback
Yes, and Europe essentially owes Ukraine nothing. UA is being used by the US not just to destabilize Russia, but also to weigh down Europe, a competitor, with a giant and hungry cuckoo bird in our nest, and impoverish European societies by siphoning off our wealth to useless efforts for Ukraine. Now and twenty years ahead.
@@eugenefirebird8938 And probably more.
Of course. This war of naked agression by Russia was completely unnecessary. Unless you support imperialism.
I read in the comments - we will never be vassals of Russia! Let's turn on the imagination - you are an entrepreneur and you need energy for production, you depend on who has it. For some reason, you don't like the one who offers the cheapest energy. OK, you found another organization that sells more expensive energy. But now your products have become uncompetitive and no one wants to buy them. And so, you have a choice - to be poor and lose production or to become smart and humble and make friends with Russia. Is it called being vassals?🤔
It is normal for a Westerner that the whole planet is his vassal, but it is unthinkable for him to experience anyone as his equal.
A few years back I asked a guy I saw around park slope - Brooklyn, if his bike was electric. He said "no, this one is gasoline. Just for the sake of it, I asked how much he paid for it. "$500" he said, and added "it's Chinese thought. But I don't care because I'm a realtor and need it to move fast through traffic. And if it brakes, I buy another one and I'm still below what an American made would cost me which is $1500."
Petro's remark at 10:10 is one for the ages. Politicians DON'T care about the victims of their stupid or criminal policies. Their only concern is keeping and expanding power.
exactly, now we know how and what for all the wars take place,
Fits Trump/Biden to a tee.
@@klam77; WTH does Trump have to do with this? Neocon warmongers like Nuland, Sullivan, Blinken, Graham, and Blumenthal are to blame.
Putin DOESN'T care about the victims of his stupid and criminal policies.
I guess you are talking about a particular politician, Vladimir Putin. Your description fits him like a glove.
What is the differance between Russian and Western mentality? Russians: "Where's the Truth?" Westerns:"Where's money?"
let's not kid ourselves. Russia is just selective about truth. west lies unconditionally.
Извините ребята, но западные политики и Украина много раз доказывали, что они недоговороспособны, поэтому они могут забыть про переговоры. Будет капитуляция Украины и трибунал для всей нацистской хунты за их преступления.
Что такое нацизм ?
@@vitaliyt8571перечитайте протоколы Ньюрбергского трибунала в части преступлений против человечества, это и есть нацизм и именно это делает сейчас украинская хунта против граждан Украины и России. Закономерно, что Россия, оставляет за собой право уничтожить нацисткую украинскую хунту и всех адептов секты "Украина привыше всего", которые являются угрозой для граждан России.
@@vitaliyt8571Azov battalion
NACIS wose Antibolshevisti HAHAH meny Rassa General with Wermacht like Azov Batalon Hitler wonted Germany and Rassa to unter like Katarina the Greate Germany and Rassa border Big Power Technologie from Germany and Rassa Recurce. Nor to Destroy Rassa peapell.
@@familyshare3724 The Azov battalion does not declare superiority over any nation that should obey the Ukrainians. But the Russians are just declaring that Ukrainians must obey them.
"Political elite in Ukraine" 🤔😂 There is no such thing, there are only criminals.
Absolutely 140% correct. Ukraine! Considered one of the most corrupt nations on earth and the West, (Washington, London & Brussels, (NATO thugs) love the company of the Ukraine fascist neo-Nazi's. Just stop and think about it?? The West called on the services (Proxywar) of Ukraine Stepan Bandera fascist neo-Nazi's to destroy a Great nation like Russia!! Just let that ridiculous thought float around in your mind. We're surrounded by a bunch of Western fascist neo-Nazi sympathiseing bastords!!
Yes but do you condemn khamaaaas!?
We live in Al Capones world
Alexander never lost o battle, and Putin never lost a war.
Even though it’s a terrible situation, I take some mild amusement from watching analysis from pro NATO sources from around 2 years ago when discussing how the west would have to deal with the ‘challenges of Russia and China’ nearly all of them say something to the effect of “so when Russia is dealt with” They all just assumed Russia will crumble both militarily and socially.. I hope for all our sakes that they now see that neither of these will occur. The west always has underestimated Russian resolve and social structures.
Without the US most European countries could manage cooperation with RU for a mutual benefit; but as vasalls - no way!
@@robertsattler8201 absolutely agree! But for whatever reason we seem to keep voting in leaders who wish Europe to be more and more dependent on Washington :(
The "leaders" you are referring to are either incompetent or only interested in their own goals. Too lazy to do the job of taking care of the old continent. @@mcal27
Nope fascist will only seek another strategy to maintaining global “Whiteness”because once the East passes them by, that ship 🚢 will never sell again!
@@mcal27nous votons pas vraiment pour ceux qui sont en place le problème c est qu ils font des coalitions pour rester en place pour moi cela est de la triche voir en Allemagne en Espagne.... Le parti d Olaf a perdu en Espagne aussi et résultat ils ont fait des coalitions le peuple c est révolté il y a de la corruption partout !
I live in Switzerland and now I understand much more about the war. Thanks for inviting this gentleman.
Russia and China takes one step forward while the U.S and the G7 and NATO falls flat on its butt😂😂😂
Yes agreed the quality of leadership in China and Russia far exceeds that of the west.
Russia must get out of all the occupied Muslim republics of the North Caucasus! Nothing is finished yet! still to come. Free Dagestan! Free Chechnya! Free Circassia! Free Palestine! No to Colonialism! 🇵🇸
@@CBSRR2025 I'd prefer an occupation by RU to the US one - and suppose the East of Russia is prefering Moscow to Beiging as well!
The truth will always prevail. Hate, inequality and colonialism have no place in this new world.
Russia must get out of all the occupied Muslim republics of the North Caucasus! Nothing is finished yet! still to come. Free Dagestan! Free Chechnya! Free Circassia! Free Palestine! No to Colonialism!
Ukraine is being decolonised. NATO calls this "degrowth".
The world never changes, as it is as it was as it shall be, it's time to grow up.
@@CBSRR2025Not occupied, it still is Russia dumbkoff!!
What world do you live in? Here’s a simple test that proves your assertion wrong: what is commonly known/accepted as True, as the first month of the year, but is not?
I was so much better informed about this war than most of the people I know. And it’s because I looked to sources like Alexander Mercouris and Alex Chistoforu. I ignored western media and apparently I was wise to do so.
And even comedian Jimmy Dore got it right two years ago.
It is not wise to ignore media of any kind.
After the covid, who really want to hear western MSM anymore?
I still fail to see what has Russia won when it comes to how you build a modern economy and thriving state?
@@lkrnpkif in your opinion modern economics is printing money and playing casino called stock market, go study.
"making off like bandits" Thank you again for another brilliant analysis. In just a few words, Dr. Petro has just nailed it.
Indeed!
The drought of 1931 worsened the situation, destroying a significant part of the harvest, and there was nothing to buy food from the West due to the gold blockade and the lack of currency as a result of the embargo. The result of this sanctions policy was the famine in the USSR of 1932 - 1933, which went down in history as the “Holodomor”, the victims of which were at least 7 million people In 1932, the United States introduced a complete ban on the import of goods from the USSR. After the end of World War II, with the unleashing of the Cold War against the Soviet Union by the US leadership (after W. Churchill’s Fulton speech “The Muscles of the World”), sanctions as a tool of influence on a potential enemy were again in demand. In 1947, the American leadership adopted the so-called “Truman Doctrine”, the main meaning of which was to contain the USSR in all spheres of life. From the moment the COCOM (Coordinating Committee for Export Control) began its activities, an almost 70-year epic of anti-Soviet and then anti-Russian sanctions began, which has not ended until now. At the same time, the sanctions were complex, systemic in nature and were constantly supplemented by new restrictions on trade with the USSR. Thus, already in 1962, the United States and its allies introduced a ban on the sale of large-diameter pipes to the USSR, which led to a delay in the construction of the Druzhba pipeline. The Jackson-Vanik Amendment prohibited the provision of most favored nation trade treatment, government loans, and loan guarantees to countries that violate or seriously restrict the emigration rights of their citizens, as well as other human rights. The amendment also imposed discriminatory tariffs and charges on goods imported into the United States from non-market economies. With the advent of the Reagan administration in the United States, the policy of economic “suffocation” of the USSR gained new impetus. Its strategy was based on a three-point plan: undermining the system of power and governance (including through democratization through the Polish Solidarity); the exhausting resource arms race and support for the Mujahideen in Afghanistan; accompanying collapse in prices for raw materials (mainly oil). In the second half of the 80s, the US leadership realized that the most vulnerable segment of the USSR's economic policy was its dependence on hydrocarbon exports. It was this area that it was decided to cause maximum damage. For this purpose, a collapse in oil prices was initiated. In 1998, the sanctions policy acquired a new content - scientific. Thus, the United States added 10 Russian institutions to the “black list” (on suspicion of cooperation with Iran in the missile and nuclear fields) Until 1994, sanctions defined within the framework of the functioning of COCOM were in effect. COCOM included 17 countries (USA, Canada, Australia, Japan, Great Britain, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Turkey). Six more states cooperated with the committee (Austria, Finland, Ireland, New Zealand, Sweden and Switzerland), although they were not formally members.
Great comment...learned a lot .cheers😊
You are very knowledgeable and unfortunately most people don’t know how long Russia has been sanctioned and how it has constantly been targeted by the west. I can understand the dislike of the Soviet Union as the west feared communism but Russia is not communist and operations a free market system. People could say well the west doesn’t like human rights abuses, but that is hypocritical seeing as the number of atrocities they have carried out themselves.
@@johnm7267 The word "communism" is mentioned very often in the comments! but people don't even understand the meaning of this word! people in the West were zombified as if “communism” was something terrible and terrible! to build communism, all people must be honest and decent (neither cheat nor steal)! but this is not possible, such a human essence!
Well documented thank you. Just to add that the term “Holodomor” was a CIA-MI6 invention used whilst funding Galicia-West Ukraine-infamous collaborators to help destroy USSR. -the Russian word for that time is just famine- Golod-Голод It was extreme all along the Volga (& in Kazakhstan). Food support was organised by Nansen-of Nansen passport fame, who organised fundraising in his native Norway & Europe, used the funds that had been allocated for his further exploration of the Arctic & Greenland. The Nansen passport was temporary documents for those of us who were White Russians, having fled the 1917 Revolution, were paperless, stateless refugees as our Russian Empire passports weren’t recognised. Nansen was a great humanitarian & prolific exporter.
@@mgkos согласен
As an European, I say US go home. Woke hegemony is unbearable.
For example; what was the strategy in Libya? There was no new regime waiting to be installed. The state and its infrastructure was destroyed, but nothing was done to replace it. The West just created a million refugees - running from the warlords that came after Gaddafi - and then loses its mind about the refugees!
But these refugees will also weaken Europe! - so it is good for USA!
Same as with any other Western plan. Destroy the country, and take the resources. Pirates.
It's amazing how the EU keeps supporting these wars. The refugee crisis they create always impacts Europe. With every war comes hundreds of thousands of refugees that enter the EU. These refugees put huge strain on local economies of EU nations. Why are we supporting wars that could potentially cripple our economies?? Did we not learn from Libya and Syria?? These refugees, as tragic as it is, also put strains on communities, housing and the welfare state. Surely if the EU did not partake in the support for these wars we would be in a better economic situation, and hey we would even have cheap natural gas. It really makes me think, who is really behind all this?
@@bubba842 The EU leaders don't care about their countries and their people. They are completing the fundamental task to destroy the industrial Europe and make it weak and dependent on the US. Take a look at Germany! Who in their regular mind would have been able to imagine how Berbok and Scholz have annihilated the heavy industry of Germany! To resign from Russia's cheap and reliable natural pipe gas! It was a shot not to the foot but to the very head of Germany! And there are no consequences for this crime from their voters! I really feel pity for those stupid Germans, how easy it was to made them to do it to themselves.
Gaddafi was introducing gold-backed Dinar to step out of Western dictatorship via the dollar. Financial stranglehold is core of US global power.
Russia articulated its strategies and objectives very well. There are regular briefings and Putin himself regularly spends hours and hours answering questions. Those who have ears will hear it. And Russia's objectives are changing dynamically. Russia made it clear that any military threats towards them on their borders will be dealt with. And if this requires demilitarizing all of Ukraine and securing borders all the way into Eastern Europe then this is what Russia will do and will do it successfully. Russia cannot fail in this mission because this will lead to use of tactical and strategic nuclear deterrent and Russia will of course use it as and when this becomes necessary. There is no possibility and never was a slightest possibility of achieving a "military" victory over a nuclear superpower such as Russia. Any demented EU officials that talk otherwise simply show their complete contempt towards their own countries and safety of their own people.
Quite
Perfectly put, The professions of endless loyalty to Kiev ("the alternative where Russia ends this war with any gains under their belt does not exist", "we shall support Kiev until they have regained their 1991 borders and Mosocw is in a state where they can never threaten us again!") by people like Jens Stoltenberg, Ursula von der Leyen, Sanna Marin, Marc Rutte etc - and of course Boris Johnson - are more about chaining themselves to the leadership of Uncle Sam than about real will to help Ukraine.
What are those objectives that Russia articulated well when the war started?
There is no "Russia". There is Putin and his selected oligarchs (mafia).
Vladimir Putin initially thought Russia could defeat Ukraine and overthrow its government in just three days, according to leaked FSB intelligence. Yeah sure 😂😂😂
It is very nice to hear from Nicolai Petro again. I bought, read and carefully analyzed his book The Tragedy of Ukraine. Of all the books I have read about Ukraine and the conflict, I would single out this one as the one from which I perhaps learned the most. When the mainstream media has fundamentally failed to explain and analyze this conflict and what is going on, other than simply resorting to the good-evil dichotomy, this book provided far more understanding of why things happen the way they do. I have great respect for Nicolai Petro. I listens with great interest to everything he says. Thank you both for the conversation.
Your welcome! And thanks for the support. Yes, Petro has great insight and it‘s really hard to get a lot into a short conversation with him. But very insightful.
@@neutralitystudies The Russian economy is in tatters. The Russian military is being decimated. Reality and fantasy are two different concepts.
@@neutralitystudies Russian dead 120,000. General rule of thumb 3 injured to 1 death. A Russian senator said 50% of those returning from the front are amputees. So 120,000 dead, 180,000 with life changing injuries but Russia is winning. Laughable nonsense.
@@neutralitystudies I don't understand how they couldn't come up with an effective spin on how Ukraine won yet. They sold Trump was installed by Putin and that was effective.
The mainstream media hasn't fundamentally failed to explain what's happened - they have obfuscated it. They know exactly what they're doing. This whole thing makes my heart ache.
Excellent guest. Very perceptive and wise.
Ukraine conflict has been hard on EU, just coming out of covid economic disaster, then inflation sky rocketted. Bottom line is American proxy war with Russia, we in Europe suffer the consequences for Washington's blundering into another arms war.
True but don't forget the incompetent "leaders"in Brussels.
The EU is the collateral damage. Your hatred to everything Russian is now turning against you hard. You played a major role in all what is happening nowadays in Europe. The Russians do not spend a moment tjonking about your glorious Europe except the ones who were born in Russia and betrayed it for the "bright" life in Europe. Deal with your problems yourself. Face the Wind Of The Future and complain to yourself. I am tired of hearing we, the Americans, did this and that. And what did you do personally when the EU started this nightmare? Why did you accept nazi Ukras- killers into your countries? Why did you try to put Russia and its President into your own shit? Now you should face the Reality yourself. Smell your Own Shit. It may help yiu to return your sanity. And remove the NAZI from your own goverment. That is what you are getting from the United Srates. Hello from Chicago.
@gailascari Maybe you want to say that this is undeserved? The EU countries organized, paid for and supported the genocide of the population of Donbass for 10 years. The bill arrived at the correct address.
2008 Merkel and Hollande opposed to a US wanted NATO membership of Georgia and Ukraine. They knew why, the cheap energy supply of Europe was at stake in the long run. Now 2022 it is a riddle why the bigger nations of Europe did not oppose anymore. Maybe they were convinced that the strategy to declare an economic and military war against Russia could finally make them participants and to utilize an expected decline of Russia for an economic raid.
@@Leo-ie3eb that’s right: they dreamed of living richly by plundering Russia.
It's starting to add up to me, that Russia was not naïve in dealing with the west, but instead the Kremlin assumed it was at a disadvantage more broadly and had to take what it could get, until the very end even in feb 2022.
Good point
@GuySmith987 - What you are describing is a common Con Artist strategy. First you appear to be passive and weak, only to spring the trap when your target least expects it. Putin plays the long game like a Chess Master, while Washington plays the short game, lIke a Poker player who can only look at the cards in his hands right now.
I'm sure they were preparing for this for at least 10 years.
They were obviously extremely worried about sanctions and weren't sure if their economy could withstand them. It was more this they were afraid of than military defeat. I think Russia knew that the West was severely underestimating their military capability.
It was always the case that a conflict with the west would be very costly for the Russians, so they would only resort to it as a last resort whether they believed they would win or not. And despite the fact they are winning, it is indeed very costly and will continue to be so for quite a while.
I found the views of your guest very interesting and informative, but one small criticism. Nicolai Petro used the phrases "Western strategy" and "Western diplomacy". Those are both oxymorons.
Excellent observation 😂
I would agree with you about oxymorons but strategy can be failed strategy which is the case here.
Well said
@@neutralitystudies No it was not an “excellent observation”. Try again.
Great! Never heard him before - Prof. Petro, - but he is much smarter and knowledgeable than many of his peers! He is very right, although lonely, in pointing to, and stressing the importance of, the Kazakhstan riots' clean-up operation by the ODKB in winter 2021/22! Critical event right before the SMOp. Bravo!
He gets a few things wrong, imo. E.g., he thinks Donbass and Lugansk can accept an "international administration" over them and that Russia can possibly negotiate with Ukraine again (which I think will never happen after Minsk failed multiple times and March 2022).
@@tomwhittaker9461 I did not get/hear it from him in this talk... As I mentioned, never heard him b4... If he really thinks/says this even now (and not as a trick to let West abandon its own self-destructing sanctions...), - then it's not very smart, I agree. And its total misunderstanding of Donbass people!
@@evgkabot8690 He said that in a different podcast, I'm not sure which, a day before or after. But yeah, I find the notion of that next to impossible. He said something about turning the Donbass and Lugansk area into some kind of trade ground between Russia and the west or something, there's no way Donbass/Lugansk accepts this. If Russia does this, they lose all trust of ethnic Russians in the post-Soviet space.
Thank you for the truth! 🤍💙❤
When you have worked in the media like I have, you gain the unique skill of reading through headlines. Ukraine is finished in this war.
Geniuses. The RAND strategy paper on "Overextending and Unbalancing Russia" was out in the open, and it was obvious that the US was trying to execute its recommendations. Such as getting Russia involved in a war in Ukraine, while leaving Belarus alone. I don't think it's an accident that what actually happened during the same time was that the US became seriously unbalanced and ultimately overextended itself. Good riddance. I am looking forward to a world under Chinese control. They aren't less selfish or more ethical, but at least they are not stupid and chaotic.
China does not want to control the world. They want to end US hegemony
Don’t worry, the Chinese aren’t seeking hegemony and imperialism like the West/global “Whiteness”!
The British empire ran into the same problems during the 1920s and 30s - outwardly it was larger than ever, but it had become bigger and more far-flung tan it could defend in the long run (modern armament, ships and aircraft becoming more expensive too), and they were getting financially and industrially outpaced by other powers. After WW2 it never recovered.
I don’t want any hegemonic control.
@@pchakrav2000 we’re already in a technocracy too late
Anyone who has taken the time and trouble to read about Napoleon's invasion of Russia, or Hitler's invasion of Russia, or The Crimea War, or even the war with Sweden before those, knows that Russia's been down before but it always bounced back. After 2014 the Russian speaking Eastern Provinces of Ukraine that broke away took 90% of Ukraine's GDP with them. If a person knows how to read a map they could see the Ukraine Army was in a natural pocket in the Donbass with Crimea to it's South and West and the Russian border stretching North and West on the other flank forming a natural pincer. Throw in that the War began with Russia having a 5 to 1 population advantage that became an 8 to 1 advantage when so many Ukrainians became refugees. The only reason it dragged on as long as it has is because of the Mud seasons and Russian's reluctance to kill fellow Slavs. The other problem is in the West the military strategy, if you could call it that, was being done by the State Department and CIA instead of the military. The diplomats can't read maps, they think they were made obsolete by GPS. They don't understand long term economic and strategic planning is involved in warfare. They don't seem to understand diplomacy either.
The Hubris is Stronk Inside the Neocon
They don’t care for diplomacy nor diplomatic solutions.
The US doesn't do diplomacy.
Unfortunately many in the West still believe Putin is trying to recreate the Soviet Union, that Ukraine is winning because Russia hasn't overthrown all of Ukraine. All the signs look like the US is now shifting to a long protracted war hoping that at some point the failure of maximum sanctions and poor military strategies will eventually finally take effect.
What are you on about it took away 90 percent of Ukraine's GDP? That would imply Ukraine's GDP went from 190 billion to 19 billion.
Western policy towards Russia will only end when Neo colonialist era ends when the US Dollar finally implodes! Its already 550% overvalued. When the Dollar is devalued it will be cathostropic not insignificant as many think.
I agree.
In gold we trust
We better not wait for these times. This will be a gigantic global financial crisis
@@Samimi_Sabimi Global to a point! With UAE and Saudi joining BRICS they will not be fully exposed, as all oil transactions will be in the purchaser's currency. No one will accept the Dollar as it will be worthless! Big problem for US how will they pay for oil? Barter perhaps. Puts the spotlight on sanctions that releasing sanctions has a free purchasing licence go with it!!?
China needs to open it's bond market. World is ready to accept yuans. Most of the world trade with China. Yuan can be next world reserve currency. But reserve part is missing for now. BRICS is talking about BRICS currency I heard. Maybe they will make something that will work. For now dollar is still the only game in town
A rare voice of reason in an endless sea of stupidity and lies. Bravo, guys!
The irresistible force disintegrated against the immovable object
Pascal, you provide some of the best interviews by inviting such knowledgeable guests, asking intelligent questions and letting the guest answer fully in detail. Bravo!
I am afraid it's only second best.
America have become experts in portraying with conviction theirs infinite complete disastrous failures into triumphant successes.From Vietnam Afghanistan Iraq Libya Syria and the latest expensive proxy war in Ukraine.
Well said 👍
That's called propaganda.
This war is Russias Vietnam. Sorry to bring you the bad news.
@@garyddlewis3067 Russia already won the war and Ukraine are desperate to negotiate ,even the the American are pushing for peace.
@@garyddlewis3067you don't get it. People of Donbass, Odessa, Kharkov want to be Russians. They are simply scared about Ukraine retributions. Remember how they burned over 50 people in Odessa just for terror? No?
russia is stronger than we thought, and they grew stronger with the war, oligarch powers completely stripped, state siezed their asset, russia thought they needed the oligarcs as middlemen to export energfy and keep relations with the west. it turned out that the oligarcs are useless middlemen who have no sway over the west. Israel power weaker than we thought. USA had to send all its force on standby to stop neighbouring nations attacking.
Wonderful to hear guys who actually know what their talking about...greetings from "Vietnam"
Because of the low loans in ukrainian agriculture it's absolutely impossible to integrate Ukraine into the EU. All other european agriculture branches would be flattened.
I’m sick and tired of all the collective west leaders 😈🤢👹
They dont have to win if the only real goal is to transfer money to themselves.
It is all a grift to fund the 2024 election steal just like COVID was for 2020.
Russia doesn't need the Kerch bridge. They lived without for years and there are extensive port facilities and hundreds of barges etc to keep a directly supply line in existence across the Kerch Straights. More to the point, Russia has it's "land bridge" and is expanding the already existing rail lines between Rostov and Crimea.
the ground under where the tunnel is to be built is unstable not fit for a tunnel China is playing them
They haven't had the risk of Ukraine being used as a combative proxy against them for a hundred years (up till 2014), that's the difference. Btw before 1954 Crimea WAS legally part of Russia (RSFSR), not Ukraine.
I'm well aware of the disposition of Crimea from Russia to Ukraine - no doubt to please Khrushchev. As far as the Kerch Bridge goes, during the Soviet era there was a railroad bridge there built in 1945. But everything the Soviets did had some kind of war in mind - that's why their bridges and a lot of buildings are "over built." The Kerch Strait is between 3-15km wide and there are ample port facilities on both sides and barges and ships in large number. When the SMO started, the Russians must have assumed that there was a possibility that the bridges (rail and car) would be knocked down. They could supply Crimea without the bridge - it would be a pain but not mission critical, especially now with more railroads being built on the "land bridge" out of Rostov.
Однажды, каждый человек проснётся, понимая, что он русский.
Finally, smart discussion
Your standards are low.
Ukraine has been the sacrificial lamb.
Great conversation!
Greetings Gentlemen. There is a Persian saying “ Chah bekan bahr e kesi, awal khoded baadesh kesi “ means “ Dig a well for others (to fall into ), you fall first then others “. Digging a grave for others into which you yourself will fall first. ‘The western imperative is not to accomplish anything but to look good. Not concerned about the outcome of their policy ‘ . The above statement is academic in describing transnational thugs, (the Globalists, the zionists, etc.), to deindustrialise the US and western Europe and then challenge the might of other industrialised nations. Impoverishing others is the objective. Deciphering satanic mischief through pseudo- scientific analysis and expecting positive results ! The Think Tanks, the Kegans, etc. Over a million Ukrainians have perished and now Gaza. How do they care. What greatness has the US accomplished through this continual slaughter ?
It has become the richest nation on earth, though looking at America you would think so. It is a very sick society
So true
@@johnm7267the American society is sick. Let them deal with their own sickness. Be patient, wait and see. The Russians know very well how to deal with the sick society. They face their own difficulties as their society is multinational (they have over 190 linguistic nations). And there is NO Reservations as here, in the States. We will recover but??? Perhaps, to satisfy our Super Ego we will reelect our dangerous senile "Bider" And the heck with the rest of the World!
What I've heard from Russia directly is that people couldn't travel anymore to spend/invest their money abroad anymore and so they started investing in Russia itself. Especially the housing sector is apparently booming in Russia.
Especially since the government introduced new tax reforms for small businesses and countless western companies left many niches vacant to fill.
With a 15% interest rate I'd say "apparently" is the key word.
It's not true, Russians can travel wherever they want (US is a bit difficult, but possible) and can invest money, us-share based funds are still available.
Directly from Russia: not 100% correct, but true in general. People feel being tricked by the West, and trickery is the last thing Russian people would tolerate. So yes, thanks to the West for that hard lesson, we will know better from now on.
@@alekseialatin8197 Please note it's the current Western power elites and their propaganda apparatus, not the general population.
It's definitely not just a failure of analysis and understanding. It's a failure of their core beliefs.. Those beliefs should never again exist.
Amen. Nostra culpa.
This analysis goes a long way to blow away the fog of war. An understating of the history of international diplomacy and strategy among the players is vital to gaining insight into the cause of this conflict and the various options for ending it.
SEA dude here and been in Russian twice. Siberia (Baikal lake ic marathon) and St.Petersburg for a ballet. Awesome culture.
Great work Pascal. Your guests always deliver, Nikolai is clearly very knowledgeable.
Excellent show, Gentlemen! Thanks a lot!
Russia withdrew from Kiev as sign of good faith for the Istanbul,negotiations. It committed limited forces at the beginning to secure limited objectives,
Ben Hodges hasn't gotten 1 thing right this entire war.
Stop listening to him. Waste of time. Never heard of him...
Terrific. People who see this war differently are incapable of reasoned thought
Wait, claiming that Russia has "won" when it has failed to even take the territory is supposedly annexed is "reasoned thought"? LOL!
@@iriemon1796 What territory has Ukraine taken back?
@@OriginalBongoliath Kiev, Kharkov, and Kherson areas.
My concern is regards to Prof's statement that the sanctions not working being the result from most of our academia shows the Neocons lack of communication with Academia, personal historical research, and willingness to accept the mission regardless of any results.
13:00 After the March/April 2022 agreement, Russia only offer: Unconditional Surrender
Thank you for the high standards of classical journalism and analytics. Hugs from snowy Siberia!
Warm hugs back from Kyoto!!
Underestimating a foe created by oneself is a poor and risky strategy.
Simple, leave Russia alone.
and they are right - Russia simply inflicted a military defeat on country 404 and it military + all the rabble on their side you can only say that you defeated the “neocons” if you defeat Europe, Israel and America etc
I'm now learning Russian on Duolingo.
Good luck to you 😊
Where are you from
@@abbfilmann3735 UK. If you have a child make sure they learn Russian, Chinese, etc, the west is a busted flush.
Who would take advice from Boris Johnson on such a serious issue as war and peace? I find this hard to believe.
EXCELLENT discussion, great comments from the Professor beyond the usual discussians of this subject.
Hello from Saint-Petersburg Russia. I didnt know that there are reasonable people in the west who is still analyzing the situation.
My guess is that the speaker visited Ukraine and Russia perhaps twice, at a minimum. This alone gives him 100 billion % more credibility than anyone else.
Mr. Petro did not understand the real target of the oil embargo in 1973. It was a rescue operation for the Dollar under false pretext. After the ending of the gold based Dollar in 1971, USA was struggling to keep its financial power. By higher oil prices the Dollar was made a oil based currency.
it pressured latin american countries unbeliavably. Brazil being the overachiever in growth from decade 30 to 70 declined to a stall due to impressive external debts pressure from then on. The OPEP prices went up a few years later and this country has not grown anymore above its population increase. Now, we even face populational transition, with only 2 workers to 1 retired. The USA has relied on the Dollar for decades now and losing many simpathies, while China is being a steady partner to countries that are struggling economically.
@@fernandososterbortolotto7315 Please take into Your considerations the application of Climate Control for Geophysical Warfare & Water Management for fracking of oil & gas & large scale agriculture. I won't give a link here, because it may be deleted, but please look for "Climate Control, Geoengineering, Geoarchitektur, Enkidu" to find my articles about that. You may get a false warning, depending on the browser You use, but this is another way of censoring.
This is since long the best and most open evaluation of the current situation, regarding UA's situation, as well as the Western one. But I suppose that the bigger move of power from the "West" to BRICS+ is the mid-term game changer - not in favour of Europe incl. UK, unless we decouple from our hegemon.
Nato is walking about with its arse in a sling
West interest in Ukraine is 2 foold: 1) Position forces in Ukraine and expand NATO 2) Buy up or control Uraine reasource. Why? Prop up the dollar and continued path to global domination. Gloval domination is the lens which if you view all events will make it clear why things are happening.
the outcome was a shock for people that were not informed.
You know what I've been wondering about for a year now? All the military aid...all the tanks and jets...it takes weeks to train a soldier to use certain weapons properly, and months if not years to train certain tanks and jets. Unless their supplying soldiers/mercenaries along with the weapons, what are they going to do except resell them, parade them, or just send them to the front with a standard of "drive mostly straight ahead and shoot at least once or twice before dying?"
A certain country in the last great world war had "wonder waffens" like jet airplanes, rockets, foo fighters etc. They lost a decisively. What would be different today?
The fact that what's been advertised as wunderwaffe *now* is dated armaments. Back in the day wunderwaffe was actually something cutting edge, and as such underbaked and unreliable. However, the "too little, too late" part applies in full.
In summary, the thinking in the West is MAGICAL THINKING AS IS SEEN IN 9 YO CHILDREN!!!
You mean like claiming Russia has defeated Ukraine?
Really like how Pascal is listening so closely gives it more meaning
Thank you for some reason in this insane world.
West miscalculated in historical proportions (Andreis Martyanov words, not my)
Western elites are mediocre descendants of Eastern Europe that have a bone to pick with Russia. It is fun watching the West fail to get their revenge on the Czar.
Love his raves ...
I think Putin had set out its strategic and tactic goals outrightly even before Ukraine conflict started and still maintained to this date unchanged; namely strategic goals covering a)establish pan European-Russia security architecture, and b)US-Russia security framework, and tactic goals to include c)negate Ukraine NATO membership with demilitarization near and around Russia border, d)denazification of Ukraine militarily and politically, and c)restore of constitutional rights of ethnic-Russia Ukrainian. China also learned from Russia-Ukraine conflict for three major lessons; Firstly China will only fight face-to-face against US militarily, excluding proxy war of any kinds from any states; Secondly any US-China war must occur in non-China soil or assets; c)Thirdly economic resilience is of highest priority including establishing enough reserves for basic necessities, and alternative clearing and non-dollar trading system for international trade.
Few people see it, but I think you are correct. What are your thoughts on the next problem: bringing the US into the fold with Canada/Aust/NZ/UK? This would technically fulfill brzezinski's vision of a west led by the US, and set the stage for the eventual integration of Russia at some future point in time. China is already integrated.
@@xs10tl1 All US-lead organizations and alliances will go into self-disintegration a)after witnessing Ukraine debacle which proves once again US military dominance is bygone and security no longer monopolized by US alone, and b)BRICS+ to take lead economically managing long-lasting global shortages of industrial modernization and infrastructural development in developing countries. We are witnessing multipolar world in the making.
You're kidding, right? Last I checked, the blue and gold is flying over Kiev, the Ukraine army is still in the field, Russia has failed to overthrow the Ukrainian government, has failed to "de-nazified" Ukraine (which was a stupid claim to begin with) and has failed to take the territory is supposedly "annexed". I'm not sure how you can argue Russia has achieved its goals.
@@iriemon1796 Tell me why a winning army needs to mobilize 60+ years old man or 30+ young woman to battle frontline? Tell me how a bankrupted army can win a war of attrition without external military and financial aide? Fairytales can’t happen without realizing facts on the grounds.
@@charlesyang4923 Ukraine is receiving external military and financial aid. What's your point?
Prof. Petro gives here a straightforward analysis of NATO/Russia war; his conclusions are incontrovertible. Thanks very much to both Nikolai and Pascal.
The “war” belongs to Toria Nuland. Her real surname is Kagan, the title of the ruler of the Jewish Khazarian state one thousand years ago.
What have they won? Had there been a football game?
What did you win?
@@95valero It was only a draw: Dortmund - Paris 1:1
The problem was never the expansion of NATO. It was the antagonism by NATO towards Russia in Serbia and Kosovo which put the expansion in a context of trying to pushing Russia into a corner. The interview on this channel with Robert Hunter was one of the things that changed my mind about that to some extent.
This is a Great analysis, to know the real thinking behind the scenes !! Thank you for sharing and making it very clear !! 👍
Be righty AND mighty. Might by itself will fail, because in the long run might does not make right.
Thx
I have had no doubts into Russian victory. Puttin is careful , strategist politician etc... He does need to showy like the US and bla bla He just does things
The best yet! Dr Petro, and insightful interviewer! Should the Duran have them on their show?
Finalmente una creatura intelligente che parla in questo totale letamaio morale e intellettuale chiamato occidente.
17:00 “To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” ― Sun Tzu Russia know how to deal with the USA.
The were what we are now.
As ex-military (US Army Signal Corps), I am not impressed with anyone comparing current Ukraine to a Greek Tragedy. Consider a simple fact. At the fall of the USSR, Ukraine had a population of 52.2 million. Ukraine had a population of 45.5 million in 2010. After the overthrow of the Ukraine government in 2013. And then before the start of the present conflict. The population dropped to 41 million in 2021. The current population is estimated to be 36.7 million. A population loss (45.5 - 36.7 = 8.9 million people) means a 19.3% loss of population since the pro-Russian govbernment was expelled. And a pro-USA / EU government was imposed. Since the fall of the USSR Ukraine went from 52.2 million to 36.7 million today. A 30% loss of population after the USSR. The only population losses that come close to present day Ukraine. Is the Mongol Invasions and Occupations starting in the 1200's. So Ukraine is now is a far larger catastrophe than a simple Greek Tragedy. As the Ukraine population did not recover from the Mongols for over 400 years after they left. Or 5 human lifespans of 80 years per lifespan. Given the systemic lying about Ukraine since the start of this war. The true loss rates will be higher than the above numbers. And this war will not stop until President Biden is reelected in 2014. Nearly a year from now. See my post below.
Good research William and important to explain why Ukraine is taking the primrose path. These statistics demonstrate the economic decline of a young nation since 1991 that became a victim of international competition and an easy prey for the mafia-like privatization groups. No capable statesman like Putin has strengthened the state and made it resilient against American interests: we can see the result today, a destroyed country, destroyed people, a whole generation of men sacrificed for the geopolitical interests of the West And those who left Ukraine will never come back as there will be no civilized standard after the war.
Ukrainians didn't existed in the time of Mongol invasion, there wasn't such nation, they were Russians.