Designing A Self Propelling Ionic Thrust Wing
A self propelling wing changes everything. And so does Curiosity Stream - Go to sponsr.is/cs_plasma and use code PLASMA to save 25% off today. Thanks to Curiosity Stream for sponsoring today’s video.
This build is currently Patented! US Provisional Patent Application No.: 63/569,369
In a continuing pursuit to create a new generation of airplane flight, i've shifted away from dedicated ionic thrusters, and toward something much more integrated. Now may be the time for ionic thrust airfoils - wings which create thrust themselves, without any moving parts. I went through several iterations, and finally have something that while not perfect, is a great starting point.
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#future #innovation #ionicthrust
Designing A Self Propelling Ionic Thrust Wing
Hey all! Thanks for watching, and to Curiosity Stream for supporting this video. Update: Turns out thrust is much lower than 44 grams. Chat GPT was fairly accurate - but my rusty ability to convert Newtons to grams of force definitely slipped. I'll update this comment when i test it physically. Check out Joel's ionic thrusters here: www.youtube.com/@integza My last BSI thruster here: kzhead.info/sun/rMqte86jkXqfpZs/bejne.html Peter Sripol's channel here: kzhead.info/tools/7yF9tV4xWEMZkel7q8La_w.html
Your design is not even remotely scalable. Every edge or opening is a increase in drag. You need to make each motor it's own aerofoil in a multi blade wing design to have any chance.
Chat GPT is a language model its not for math. this was a sick video btw
@@jdoe9518People are much more likely to listen to you if you don't have an bad tone, just a life pro tip for you :p
Keep in mind, ur working older technology. current level of ionic propulsion is super conducting ionic propulsion and plasma emission. it is X 10 X 10 the thrust output compared to non superconducting. using cvd based graphene material
Great design! looking forward to seeing you at Supercon (P.S I might have some badge stuff for you.)
You should have an alliance with the tomato, Joel's main enemy
This may be a secret weapon I never realized.
@@PlasmaChannel you still have not used the photoelectric effect to generate electrons/ions
lol
@@PlasmaChannel Also please try to contact with Tom Stanton, he perform experiments with plane which powered by pressured air. He know a lot about how properly to reduce a weight.
I refuse to believe it's anything but a KZhead gimmick for kids to stroke the algorithm. Tomatoes are some of the most enjoyable fruits on Earth and I'm sure Joel eats spaghetti so I highly doubt it's anything but a cute gimmick. Really enjoyed integza until it was obvious that he doesn't understand the rotating pulse jet is a non starter just from the weight alone. I think he's pretty smart but the fact people think science is actually being done on KZhead is very hilarious. The only "science" being done are things that stroke the algorithm. Real things that are breakthroughs are not allowed on KZhead! Like how none of you have heard of the mastery of nuclear fusion with containment from a rotating toroidal containment vessel. Eliminating the need for the gigantic weight prohibited for vehicles that the current "cutting edge fusion containment devices", that have all been done 20 years ago(90% of science now is only done for grant money...really sadly) but everyone thinks it's brand new because of the collective one to two years memory of Internet humans!
Man! this is beautiful... Let's see if Joel can one up you now! And to answer your last question... probably NO! Sorry, but I don't see this being an efficient way to fly! Issue is to get very high airflow I expect there to be exponentially high electrical waste. Doesn't mean these efforts are useless. not only the science coming out of these experiments could lead to new breakthroughs, but also, this would already make a great space heater that kills 99.9% of the airborne germs too!! 😁
Hey have you ever accidentally shocked your balls? @electroBOOM
no, because he never does anything accidentally @@leafboye33
@ElectroBOOM i love what's been going on in this series. i dunno if thrust per watt hour is the best way to judge, but i have a feeling in the end, it'll be really cool, but perhaps not competitive. and i am a-ok with that B-) hehehe
If we ever get the perfect battery, then maybe these wasteful, energy intensive sci-fi propulsion methods will be a thing. 🤷♂️ 🔋
@@blaircox1589 The waste of energy to get the benefit of almost no maintenance...
An american measuring in milimeters is the most logical thing I've seen
imagine 50 years or shorter from now to think this could be the future of aviation is actually really exciting. i hope to see more designs and watch how far this progresses. your doing amazing work keep it up and we all might see a change in a massive way.
It's people like you that eat lead paint, this doesn't work do you know why they don't use it, waste of energy and little to no thrust.
It can't be, there is no way you can reach high enough efficiency.
WEIGHT REDUCTION IDEAS: My dad and I used to build model airplanes you should like into using balsa wood and wax paper for the skin. Also replace those metal bolts with nylon bolts if you can! Finally 3d prints are a lot stronger thann your design is giving them credit for! Make your parts thickness .4 or .6 mm! Use 2 or 3 layers of walls. If your part has enough room for support material you can definitely reduce weight. Good luck!! If you want some help reach out!
Simillar to tom stantoms air powered plane
@@quinnthebin2304 precisely!
And where possible, use LW-PLA.
Another good tip is when trying to optimize supports, he should use hexagons cutouts instead of rectangular ones.
the metal bolts are for current draw aren't they?
Seeing air suddenly start moving so fast with no noise from a fan or anything is so cool!
I want ionic thruster cpu cooler.
I'm just thinking how you'd incorporate a giant one into a kinda haunted house to make one room feel like there's a storm inside
So cool, literally.
So much HF noise though
@@ryanwolfe2219 Huh. True.
it might be a good idea to mount the ionic thruster layers inside the wing and use the air that has been accelerated to replace the boundary flow layer with each stage. That way you could reduce drag by ensuring laminar flow and not having a large structure sticking up out of the wing. That would reduce the amount of thrust you need to generate in order to make something fly.
Alwyn has a good idea
You mean like a CoFlow jet ?
@@vuibulevbaoultch8727 The ion thruster mounted on top of the wing is already a bit like that. I was thinking more like an ionic thruster version of the Northrop X-21 boundary flow control system.
yeah, the way this is structured, and crosswind or turbulence will interfere with the thrust, not just the lift. i could think of it looking a little like a skylon engine acrooss the whole surface of the wing.
@@sorejack Yes, it certainly could be structured that way. You mean the rim of ramjets that go around the outside of the SABER engine but along the wing right? Turbulence between the boundary flow and upper layers is the problem. So accelerating the boundary flow layer would either reduce or invert that. I was thinking of something integrated into the structure of the wing so that it has the drag and lift characteristics of a normal wing when off. but produces both lift and trust whilst reducing drag when turned on.
I love seeing creators collab. This is the meaning of humanity: Combining our individual ideas and specialties to accomplish our awesome and lofty goals.
Just a thought, but you could use a foaming PLA to further reduce weight. Love the progress so far and can't wait for the next video!
I was going to suggest this. I print all of my planes in lw pla strengthened with carbon rods. I can usually achieve 40% weight reduction over the pla versions taking into account the carbon rods. I'd suggest to look into Tom Stanton's videos on his second channel on how to design a wing around printing in lw pla. I'd also plan around using the body style of a Discus launch glider to reduce the weight and streamline it as much as possible
Tom Stanton made a great video on optimizing a 3d printed wing on his second channel. The video can be found here kzhead.info/sun/hK6jmLGZpWiKkn0/bejne.htmlsi=h2qctI5dOLai09HS. The cad process is slightly different but it looks like it works quite well.
Lets lose some weight! How about this, the skin can be wax paper for now. Could the ion assembly be reduced to a hot wire grounding to gold leaf affixed to the skin of the wing? If serrations are ideal, painters tape can be cut to make the serrations, apply the gold leaf to the wax paper, peel away the tape and voila. A series of wires to grounding bands on the wing itself may doubly improve keeping air flow right at the surface of the wing? The next trick is the elevation of the wire from the wing? would one milimeter be enough/too much? So much fun to be had on this project. I subbed to keep up to date you your progress! Oh, and you may have to move to a fog machine as dry ice can only do so much, and watching flow over the wing is so important at this phase.
And/or foaming filament. Also, Tom Stanton developed some nice manufacturing method for very lightweight airfoils.
The problem with this stuff is it's super brittle. There is this Formfutura PP that is better IMO and also about the same weight. And you don't have to fuss with getting the foaming right.
Hi, Jay! Great challenge, great work! 🙂 Three suggestions for this project. First: You can place the wires lifted over the wing, but the surface of the HED thruster can be just an aluminum sheet glued to the surface of the wing itself. This can reduce drag, reduce weight and (possibly!) improve the laminar flow over the wing, which largely reduces skin drag. Consider electrodeposition of copper instead of aluminum sheets... would be even lighter and far less disruptive of airflow. Also consider placing wires on the trailing edge of an airfoil in order to avoid creating vortices (you are doing that already, in a sense). Second: You are thinking of a traditional "tube and wing" glider-like design, which is great, but a more modern solution would be a blended wing body (BWB). Since you are dealing with low speed flights, active stabilization should be far simpler than in the transonic speeds we see in military BWB aircraft, if needed at all. That will give you far more lift and thus far greater flight autonomy. Also, the batteries and HV generators would be sitting on a surface of the plane that generates lift, giving you far less need for structural strength in your wings, translating into a bit less weight overal (and every 10 grams count in your case...). Remember: gliders carry no heavy equipment and that is why their extra long wings can be so light - they need little reinforcement for structural integrity. Third: You are entering the wonderful realm of active flow control, which is an area that has seen a lot of research lately. Consider using a few of those thrusters under the area near the tips of the wings also and making that area a little "fat" at the trailing edge, so that the Coanda effect will give you "up" and "down" control authority on the wings (as you change the ratio of flow between the upper trhuster and the lower thruster) and you will not have to use (in this case, heavy) servos and control surfaces for controlling youraircraft. In your case, the idea is substituting ailerons for the differential in force between two thrusters, one over the wing and descending because of the Coanda effect, and the other under the wing and ascending for the same reason. Hope it helps. 😉 PS: Dear Integza (Joel), feel invited! 🤣
this is very useful information
This is brilliant, thanks for sharing!
The solar powered Zephyr is the current record holder for long range unmanned flight and it’s airframe structure is an assembly of thin-walled composite tubes made from high-modulus carbon fibre in epoxy resin. Wings and flight control surfaces are skinned with Mylar. Considering you need enough surface area to lift batteries you might be building a pretty large wing here. The materials above might be the answer
In addition to active flow control, this project is starting to enter the regime of the biplane. With some optimizing, the ionic thrust segment could be a factor in generating lift. The aerodynamics between the segments and the wing could effectively cancel out any added gain from a bi-plane setup, however it would allow you to shrink the wingspan of the vehicle by a margin that may help with weight. Additionally, with the vehicle having (effectively) blown lift surfaces (similar to that of the C-17) you'll immediately see some gains from the intake of air from the surroundings similar to a dyson bladeless fan.
@@GriffithJones That is an idea, indeed. I suggest you place it in the main responses, so that Jay (the owner of the channel) can see it. Now, it is just a reply to my comment. ;)
This is the first channel I've subscribed to because I wanted to stay updated on what they were working on. Really the video and the sponsor is write up my alley. Looking forward to seeing more!
Suggestion: instead of "extruding" the NACA airfoil to make a wing, revolve the same profile around a vertical axis (symmetry of revolution) to make a disk. The linear parallel linear electrodes of your wing then become concentric rings on top of the disk. Tilt it 90° (positioned vertically its the edge) and see if the lower pressure arising in front of the disk from the radial airflow induced by the Coanda effect can propel it on your merry-go-round gantry!
The thing that I like the most about these videos is how you highlight the trail and error process. Not simply just showing a completed working project. It emphasizes the importance of building good habits and consistently improving/building upon the prior iterations.
You know, people say that this will not be a workable propulsion system, but what ionic propulsion may allow, is an almost drag-free aircraft. If the ionic system is in the correct location and configuration, such as somewhere around the front of the wings, high-pressure areas could conceivably be eliminated.
I do believe that that's the first perpetual motion machine right there. Hook it up to a pulley and you can then power up your car. Aim the car down a steep hill, so you can then get to work for free every day. Just take an uber home, and get your dad to tow your car back up hill (you might have to loan him a truck and a chain), so you can then ride your perpetual motion car back to work for free every day. Hook up your cell phone charger to the alternator in series with a flux capacitor and a rectifing diode pack to charge your phone, so you can call your dad for a tow, every day.
The easiest way to drop mass is to buy foaming agent infused PLA. You can adjust the amount of bubbles by changing nozzle temp (take care that it affects effective volumetric flow coming out of nozzle) Printing model airplanes is one of the main reason why that filament exists. Also redesigning your part to be printable in vase mode is also pretty important.
The easiest way to drop weight is stop 3D printing. Either go balsa-film construction or hot wired styrofoam.
agreed
Here's the thing if he's able to successfully use three d printing to build something that flies. It leaves some engineering wiggle room for other designs.
Easiest way to go lighter is to remove 3d printing from the equation. Even LW-PLA is multiple times heavier than balsa and tissue/plastic or foam. I've built a couple of well designed (not my designs) 3D printed RC planes myself and they're just a curiosity. They're good looking and easy to build but they're very heavy and shatter into a million pieces with impacts that a foam plane would survive with good repairability.
In my heart I hope to see some amazing and big things from you with this, it's such a amazing thing to watch as you improve on it every iteration.
Amazing how half of Peter's face is more interesting then both of us combined P.S:This is war now my friend!!!
Go easy on him. He hasn't studied Mr. Teslas work like you have.
(im on your side btw)
Damn tomato's!
Thanks for letting the world watch.
I love the three of you both :D
the ionic wind generated by the previous electrode is being obstructed by the electrode next to it, the improved version sorts the problem a bit but still the obstruction happens. so instead of using multiple modules right next to each other, you can use two long modules throughout a vast area of the wing. i hope that may improve the weight to thrust ratio.
Alternatively one could follow in the footsteps of an MIT project from 2018 and stack the linear ion thruster modules on top of each other instead of behind each.
exactly, the old design worked because there was very little obstruction, and one module feed the next. in this case each module is too obstructive. but if he replaces the razor blade with a wire maybe this problem will solve itself.
@@danilooliveira6580 Maybe even coiled wire, or stretched out spring? I wonder if the number of serrations/corona points has an effect here
@@plower221 If points matter, then going with carbon fiber would be a good way to go. There's a certain kind of ion air purifier that see big Clive show and tear into and it uses carbon fiber strands to create a lot of ions.
@@plower221 I'd be interested to test the impact of electrode width, ground width and gap between the two. Seems like could save some weight using wire instead of serrated blade. Just strip small amounts of insulation to create the points instead.
With 15 years of aircraft design experience under my belt, I find this fascinating. You need to measure the thrust in still air, and moving air. Question, do these thrusters increase thrust with faster moving air?
They should be underneath the airfoil.
@@mikalhernandez I also thought about repositioning them, but, I guess that would kill lift totally.. But, maybe, just one under the leading edge?
@@beyondrecall9446 remember that lift happens over the top of the airfoil. Air, for the most part, moves as a unit. While it will move around objects, it will not allow negative space. The air going over the top of an airfoil has a greater distance to travel than the air going under it. Faster moving air creates a low pressure above the wing and the slower moving air creates a higher pressure below it. The air going over the top is the most crucial factor of this whole thing. It will speed up as much as it has to in order to meet back up at the rear of the airfoil with the slower air moving under it. So, therefore, it should be free to flow over the wing with as little restriction as possible. The problem with the ionizers being on to of the airfoil is that they are determining both the speed of the aircraft and the speed of the air flowing over the wing. The air will not speed up to up to the air under the wing because the air going through the ionizers is already determining the speed. You'd have to use more energy to speed up the air exponentially in order to achieve lift. If the ionizers are on the bottom of the wing, you can move the air much slower, using much less energy, and physics will provide the energy needed to speed up the airflow over the wing for you.
@@beyondrecall9446 Remember that lift happens over the top of the airfoil. Air, for the most part, moves as a unit. While it will move around objects, it will not allow negative space. The air going over the top of an airfoil has a greater distance to travel than the air going under it. Faster moving air creates a low pressure above the wing and the slower moving air creates a higher pressure below it. The air going over the top is the most crucial factor of this whole thing. It will speed up as much as it has to in order to meet back up at the rear of the airfoil with the slower air moving under it. So, therefore, it should be free to flow over the wing with as little restriction as possible. The problem with the ionizers being on to of the airfoil is that they are determining both the speed of the aircraft and the speed of the air flowing over the wing. The air will not speed up to up to the air under the wing because the air going through the ionizers is already determining the speed. You'd have to use more energy to speed up the air exponentially in order to achieve lift. If the ionizers are on the bottom of the wing, you can move the air much slower, using much less energy, and physics will provide the energy needed to speed up the airflow over the wing for you.
Thank for releasing this in HDR! It looks soooo good.
I love how these "war" bring out more innovations than single handed projects, I am following you both. Lets just say Integza takes the cake for being hilarious at some point his editing and style of the content he creates is amazing. To each their charm I love you both keep going, I am on the edge of my seat the whole time!!
3D printing with foaming/lightweight/aero PLA will save a lot of weight on your printed parts, around 65%. It's PLA with a foaming agent so when it extrudes it expands at a known amount and ends up being less dense. It's used primarily for printing drone components.
this or simply just switching to abs or PP which are significantly lighter than PLA. Although those filaments can be quite difficult to print accurately
Needs a simpler wing all together tbh, I would be looking at things like man powered flight and follow the "straight" wing design (carbon fiber). Wings create lift by making low pressure system behind the leading edge over the trailing edge essentially turning thrust into lift, above the wing... not below! thats where your lift comes from thats why the tear drop shape. He hasnt got the thrust to ever make that shape an effective wing. He needs a cutting wing... a straight wing. ALSO... he will need to move the thrust off the wings, i hope he highlights why next one but i can see the fundamental problem hes making already. Think propeller planes, surface area, and thrust positions. Have a safe and happy new year.
Could aerogel have a place here. It will be poetic
A really good experiment and demonstration, excellent presentation, I’ll be eagerly looking for your next post 🙂
In the novel I am writing, there is a "surface air acceleration technology" applied to sailing ships. Your design actually turned my fantasy into reality. Such wind speed may be too low for an aircraft, but it is completely sufficient for a sail. A wind speed of 4 meters per second is approximately 6 knots. That's enough for the sailboat to sail normally. great!
super cool design, awesome to see you talk with Peter about the wing design. there's another youtuber I've been watching, Tom Stanton who's been making super light wight wings for an air powered plane. might be worth looking his stuff for ideas on how to create some really light wings
Exactly my thought
Thinkflight would be another great option with his light weight rubber band powered plane
Could you use a metal foil plastic like a mylar foil 'space blanket' as electrodes & ground planes? That would REALLY cut down on weight as it could also double as the wing surface 😁
That’s an interesting idea. Wonder if it would work if the trailing electrode was just a conductive strip on the surface the wing itself
I like it , but I'd be afraid voltage breakdown would poke holes that would grow exponentially.
@@petevenuti7355I think so too.
@@petevenuti7355What if one of the trailing electrodes was an aluminum tape or electroplate on the surface of the wing itself? Small surface defects caused by the tape edges could damage the boundary layer flow, so I'm Really suggesting electroplating. An electroplated wing surface could reduce the weight and pull the boundary layer more tightly to the surface.
Tried this, but the thin plating disintegrated too fast (to be fair, it was really really thin)
This is absolutely amazing!! I hope to see actual aircraft in the sky using something similar, man that would be so cool.
Very cool. Loved all the steps. This has great promise in many areas I'm thinking.
It’s criminal you’re under 1mil subs. Your designs are top tier, and your videos are fantastically produced. I genuinely believe you could change the industry with this. Always love when you upload!
I agree, unfortunately it's a side effect of not posting very often. It's the downside to spending so much time and energy on each video. They come out great but makes the channel grow slow.
Sorry kids but ionic thrust is only valid propulsion in zero gravity, with the extremely different output based on relative humidity and altitude. There's a reason no one uses it and even NASA has abandoned it in favor of sails to catch solar wind. It's WAY too heavy to use in space. I love how people think there's anything new under the Sun. It makes a cool KZhead video but it's pretty pointless for anything other than the views by people who don't understand what's actually going on. He couldn't change the industry because he doesn't even realize he's yanking the air flow from the first and second thrusters with the last two. That's not very industry changing to overlook such an obvious mistake. Right now it's pretty obvious this whole ionic thruster thing is an algorithm milking cool looking science experiment, and nothing more. It's pretty much a non-starter for actual aeronautical use. It really looks cool and makes people click your videos though😂
@@dalebob9364 I'd agree that revolutionazing the aeronautic industry is a bit far fetched for sure. But give the guy some credit, even if "just" makes an RC airplane with this design, it'd be nice and actually innovative. Not like some other *popular science* channels who are just milking their: vacuum chambers, liquid nitrogen, kinetic sand, oobleck, 3D printers and other things that are already well figured out to get views (aka. Steve Mould). This guy has a goal that requires real thought and engineering work. Just like Tom Stanton's air powered plane isn't going to be the next big thing in aerospace, but hell he optimized the shit out of it. Not just anyone with a couple of available tools and a nice camera can do that. There is a huge difference between channels that demonstrate sciency stuff and these design/engineering journey channels. If nothing else, they manage to demonstrate that every hobbyist with some dedication can make use of today's technologies like 3D printing to create some really cool stuff. Just more power to the people.
There are a number of channels that don't post often that do really well : ie Mark Rober, but it takes time
@@jelybrd mark Rober makes videos that basically exclusively go viral… not exactly a fair comparison lol.
We need wayyyyy more of this throughout the science community(ies) ....for years, I've watched documentaries, miniseries, etc. and then also people in your position, who are building things to see what'll happen and then refining from there, and actually committing to the experiment 150% (like seriously, how many times did you go back to the 3D printer in this video alone?) , and on that note, also utilizing modern tech IN PRACTICE, rather than just spouting hypotheses and equations at us. I have to say, this is the first time I've sat here, entirely captivated the entire time, to see the outcome....hell even sat here through the sponsorship part, which I almost never do (because ads), and will likely end up on Curiosity soon....and then also subbed after only seeing one video from someone.
Unfortunately until people understand the full impact of a digital age ,there wont be too much of this. Many fail to realize something gamers got off the bat. That the modern age allows you to grow a rivalry that improves both parties . If more people of any background acted like these two regardless if nationality there would be alot more advancement over all.
I have been with the plasma channel since 800 subs and the quality just keeps getting better! I love this content!
Its great you guys are competing in a friendly manner in order to progress these science and engineering projects. Love it. Cudos to you guys across the pond.
Might be the best video I have ever seen on youtube. This is amazing and inspiring.
You are making this old mans mind explode with "what if's " . Love it. Makes me want to try making back up things , like a thrust dyno for such small scale projects. 👻
I understand that engineering something like this take time, but considering that you already have plans on improving this design, i realy want to see a new video on this soon. Absolutely amazing and fun video!
You guys are all awesome. Your friendly rivalry is so fun to watch. Hope you guys keep up your work and research.
This is the coolest KZhead Colab ever!
One of the coolest aviation projects ever. Love how you’re collaborating with two of my favorite KZheadrs too. Great stuff, thanks.
You are one of the maybe 5 channels that continuously keep me absolutely stoked about anything related to aerospace. You are part to thanks for my interest in aerospace and hopefully career in such too. After this senior year of high school I plan on going to college for mechanical engineering, with the hopes of working on anything plane related. Maybe even designing my own planes.
What are your other favorite channels?
This is totaly awsome man. Keep up this excelent work
I doubt you'll ever get this to scale up to carry actual people into the air but I wish you all the best in your endevours. Somebody really needs to be doing this stuff and I'm grateful you've got it covered.
Great work on the propulsion, and it looks like your propulsion units actually help create lift. Using more tradition "model plane" building techniques, i.e balsa or thin foam instead of 3d printed might help save even more weight Bit worried about the drag you'll end up with though, especially on a full wing. I think drag tends to increase exponentially.
There's a special low weight filament available
@@DJXaevo maybe, but the drag issue remains.
balsa/foam will be way lighter than anything 3d printed
This is the best part of KZhead. It’s amazing how my favorite KZheadrs always end up working together. Always looking forward to seeing your designs.
wow ionic thrusters have really gone along well. love your work keep us up on updates I wanna see this fly commercial one day.
More bean water and the exact amount of enthusiasm you already have..... bro, you got this..... just ran across your channel for the first time. You're super fun to watch. I've learned more about ionic thrust in this video than I ever thought possible. Keep up the great work. I think you're definitely going somewhere. 🤟
This is awesome :D. If you want to decrase weight even more, try LA-PLA. It will foam up during printing and it's about 45% the weight of regular PLA. You could also use a wing section of 3dlab print's Piper Cub. Printed in LW-PLA they weight aroung 20g each. If printed with the right settings the whole plane will weight less than 300g (just the material)
The pre foamed Version can be printed on a Prusa the regular uses a higher temp then a prusa is capable if I remember correctly good luck!
I’d try carbon PLA on a larger wing
@@CajunWorksNope, you can use regular LW-PLA on a Prusa. My Prusa Mini has no problem with it.
@@CajunWorks I can confirm what DominatorD1 said. I already printed a couple of planes with regular LW-PLA on a Prusa MK3S+.
Balsa wood is better
Ever since I played space engineers i wondered about ionic thrust this is so cool
so cool, just waiting on the final product
Jay, look at using an aluminum door screen mesh for the electrode instead of the blades. Huge weight reduction, awesome conductivity and the wind it produces is super impressive. It'll do what you're looking at with the serrated blades, but has way more points when you trim the mesh. Tested it last night and it works great.
There is something like emi screen cloth which may have a finer pitch and smaller diameter threads.
I do believe that that's the first perpetual motion machine right there. Hook it up to a pulley and you can then power up your car. Aim the car down a steep hill, so you can then get to work for free every day. Just take an uber home, and get your dad to tow your car back up hill (you might have to loan him a truck and a chain), so you can then ride your perpetual motion car back to work for free every day. Hook up your cell phone charger to the alternator in series with a flux capacitor and a rectifing diode pack to charge your phone, so you can call your dad for a tow, every day.
Or a scroll saw blade. You could make a jig and flatten it further on a belt sander
Great job! During 12:10 you demonstrated airflow through the thrusters. A place where drag is crucial. I think you should take inspiration from F1 cars(pre 2022) for this. They had elements (or sticky uppy bits as Sam Collin would say in his tech talk breakdowns) that countour the airflow throughout the body. Monza GP setups have the most slippery/least downforce spec cars for reference. Looking forward for the next version of this.
The world needs more people like you.
This is certainly a very interesting subject, looking forward to seeing the future design changes and optimization.
this was absoulutely beautiful! I loved watching the process and can not wait to see this unfold. Seeing the way you work through the set backs and used them as fuel to improve was so satisfying.
I won't pretend to have understood all of this, but it is really cool. Especially the engineer's journey to improve the speed of the thrust from 0.4 to 4 m/s. A 10x improvement. Well done man.
regarding the ionic wing, it occurs to me that maybe we’re thinking too macro. That is, the electrons accelerating the air molecules is all happening at an extremely microscopic scale. Therefore the system to accelerate them optimally should be designed this way. That is, building a kind of 3d lattice (like a potato dicer with channels for the air), where each channel is scaled in width and height according to flow and turbulence. In the length dimension (along the axis of flow), the distance between subsequent “accelerators” can be very very small. So somehow 3d printing a “dicer” (or printing layers then coating them using electroplating) could be a useful approach. I’ve done a preliminary analysis, and. It seems that an ionic engine with this 3D lattice design could be very powerful. I’ve emailed it to Jay. Anyway very fun to think about!
Dude ur onto something resl awesome theres so much up there you can use for endless supply of energy
The ionic thrust videos you do are amazing. The first one you did was how I initially found your channel and it’s awesome seeing you improve the design each iteration
Hello Jay the electrical engineer. 😊😊 Love your innovations regarding aerospace. Love from India.
its amazing how people can find a completely different idea to something so everyday as flight its reaffirms my belief in the value of lateral thinking, it will take a lot more thought but certainly has potential.
Very interesting and provocative for a retired aerospace guy!! Thanks!
Citizen science and engineering is always great to see, especially when it's actually pushing the boundaries what we're used to. Looking forward to seeing the full wing!
So I am a jet mechanic in school to get my Airframe and powerplant certification see your video is awesome. I have a suggestion hear me out cover your top airfoil and port a smooth mouth for the intake and keep it above the chordline of you airfoil or build it underneath the wing let me know what you think when you get around to it.
So make it ducted?
@@quakxy_dukx yes otherwise the thrust efficiency will be countered by the drag on the components across the wing surface
@@pkwithlemur18is that like F1 cars?
im not sure by what you mean @@dominic.m.i.
A little observation, if instead of creating a smooth surface at the outlet, you place needles at the same distance on the exhaust surface, you would have individual fields of ion flux
Such an amazing job! I'll be following you attempts closely ❤️
super cool to see Peter in this, ever since i saw your first thruster i thought of him. cause as you said, he can make anything fly
Suggestion. Right now, it seems the bottleneck will be reducing mass to decrease the stress on the engines. But I feel like we could use this to our advantage. What if you built it as a biplane. More wings, more surface area, but if you use 3d printed plastic, not much in weight increase.
Not even a biplane, think about it like the airfoil on a powered paraglider. Basically two wings made of thin material on top of one another to create lift. If you sandwiched them between two layers of airfoils (the top maybe with some ducts to enable airflow?), you could reduce the size.
@@promess This is basically what I just thought of, too. Like a micro-biplane wing with the ionic thrust generated between the sections of wing. I'm curious as to whether it'd be better to basically split the airfoil just above the nose, and split the tail edge (tiny bit of rake)? as 2 full airfoils would be pretty draggy, but so would the split lip on the front most likely. Not an engineer, don't mind me if I'm dumb.
Canard , not biplane, go canard
He may as well go even further than this, going all the way to a Handley-Page style multi element wing for more lift with lower velocity charles-oneill.com/aem614/ReferenceMaterial/A+M+O+Smith+HIGH+LIFT+AERODYNAMICS.pdf
I do believe that that's the first perpetual motion machine right there. Hook it up to a pulley and you can then power up your car. Aim the car down a steep hill, so you can then get to work for free every day. Just take an uber home, and get your dad to tow your car back up hill (you might have to loan him a truck and a chain), so you can then ride your perpetual motion car back to work for free every day. Hook up your cell phone charger to the alternator in series with a flux capacitor and a rectifing diode pack to charge your phone, so you can call your dad for a tow, every day.
VERY cool! And hi, from Perth, Western Australia. I've only watched 2 of your videos so far and I'll be back for more. Keep up the awesome work. 🙂
You really do great work!👍 Your positive spirit is like “high test”(guess what era I’m from 🤓)“bean water” for the soul. Seriously, keep up the great work 👍😎👍
I would recommend trying to measure the static pressure on top of the airfoil either mechanically or in a computer wind tunnel simulation. The pressure on top of the airfoil needs to be lower than the bottom of the airfoil, which may not be the case having the thrusters along the top of the whole wing. If you have a high pressure on to the wing will create downwards force and you’d have to rely solely on the angle of attack to create a higher pressure under the wing, instead of the foil. Also something that I thought of, is to make sure the average vector of the thrust air flow is parallel with the chord of the wing, as to not induce any separations of the air flow away from the curve of the air foil. Although with a setup like this, there’s a unique opportunity to play around with adjusting the vector of each stage of the thruster to be angled to force air perpendicular to the tangent of the curve (the Normal Line) of the airfoil at each stage. Forcing airflow over the wing in a setup like this could theoretically make an almost unstallable wing, as the airflow can never fully separate as long as there’s power. Also on a separate note, I had the idea of smashing copper wire with a hammer to flatten it out, and creating a razor like edge with the weight savings and improved conductivity of copper wire.
If you put metallic tape on the bottom of the wing and charged the air beneath the wing negatively, and left the wind coming off the top of the wing with a charge (or vise versa), maybe you could create a useful effect?
Beautiful project, congratulations for the perseverance and tenacity shown. I hope you will continue again and again in the project.
Just a thought here. I also watched Joel's plasma engines, and by far, he got the best thrust when the launch points for the plasma were very small. You could do something similar with a wire by twisting loops into the wire at regular intervals, and then continuing to twist each loop until it forms sort of a twisted spike. That way, you get both light weight and concentrated launch points for your plasma.
Asymmetrical capacitors !
Very cool. Keep it up dude. Love to see people pushing the limits for the love of the game like this
Amazing! I remember meeting Jay in an Austin coffee shop in 2017. He was hard at work on content for the Plasma Channel which had a few hundred subscribers at the time if I remember correctly. Jay, it's inspiring to see all the fruit your passion and curiosity have grown. Keep soaring, brother!
Wow, which coffee shop was this? Coffee Bean and Tea leaf by chance? Honored you've stuck with me. This is still only the beginning for Plasma Channel!
Yes! That's the place ☕⚡
I really love your use of dry ice & water to show the airflow! Super visual, very fluffy clouds, definitely gives me jollies 😊
Absolutely love the direction this is going. I couldn't help but think of how you could alter these into circles and structure them like a jet engine starting with a big diameter working their way down. I'd love to see how much output you could get that way
One thing is the velocity that the air reaches and the other is the momentum that the thrusters transfer to the wings. In that sense it seems to me that the sum of parallel thrusters may be less efficient than aligned. In other words, the goal is to to move the maximum amount of air mass to get higher momentum for the wing. With that in mind, I would suggest using thinner wings but twice longer and disposing your four thrusters in a 2x2 configuration rather 4x1, and to measure the push on the wing besidesthe speed.
Great work! I think weight can be reduced by attaching one of the two halves of the split ground directly to the wing , maybe as a metal strip embedded in the wing itself. Should also reduce the drag.
Are two grounds necessary, could there not be a benefit from streamlining the flow and remove one of them while directly integrating the remaining one smoothly into the wing. Arguably the same could be done for the electrodes allowing for laminar flow.
I literally just spent 5 minutes writing a long-winded way of suggesting effectively the same thing 😂
Love to see you and Joel collaborating. Competition drives innovation; I wouldn't be surprised if you guys stumbled upon something brand new. Keep it up I love your work!
So happy I found your page. Ive been building surfboards for 30+ years. Foil is everything! CNCing foam, Epoxy carbon vacuum bagging is in your future, for this project! ❤🏴☠
It is an option.. 😂
Good to see your ionic thrust projects taking a step closer to the clouds. It will be awesome to see it in the air.
Man, I've been following this channel for what feels like a really long time. And I gotta say, man, you've done some really impressive engineering work in all of your videos. Great job, keep it up and I can't wait to see more on the ironic wing.
Wow. This was amazing! Thanks. (As somebody who grew up making radio controlled model airplanes from scratch, the very first thing that I thought when you made your first prototype was that using #D printing to create an entire extruded airfoil, you were gonna be unnecessarily heavy.)
Seafair is one of my favorite times of year. I grew up watching the Mrs Bud on lake Washington.
Fantastic stuff you are doing with your ionic thruster developments. Really good presentation as well - thank you.
@3:33 if you created super light and super thin circuitry which utilized the water atoms in the atmosphere and the sun to convert and direct the hydrogen and oxygen created into a thrust vector, then you could have an amazingly small and versatile tool/Engine 😀
I love it. This is a very innovative idea with a lot of potentials. Please focus on the trailing edge as it is the part providing the most vortex. Providing highest lift. Good luck keep up the good work🙏
Amazing !! Very cool you are killing it
can't wait to see it flying also feel like the ionic thrust could work realy well for blimp
I'm loving this series! Awesome work on the design of the airfoil segment. One thing to point out that I'm sure you know, but remember to keep the skin of the airfoil as smooth as possible to reduce drag. Thanks for the great content and inspiration! All the best!
Very cool indeed!
Fantastic work mate keep it up you're on the right track! Hopefully they'll be new battery developments that will be much lighter 👍👍👍
If you created slots in the bottom of the wing that formed a passage way that went through the wing to join up with slots in the top of the wing and then placed the ionic drives inside the wing and within these passage ways, it would reduce drag on the top of the wing. Also, the air flow coming out of these slots should create a series of low pressure areas as well as thrust. You could even consider placing a small step down just behind each slot as it emerges from the wing to help in creating low pressure areas. Since this is to be a slow moving wing its angle of attack would create a higher pressure under the wing that would preload the slots feeding the ionic drives inside the wing. Just a thought, good luck, cheers.
Food for thought there for sure .
I don't think slots on the bottom of the airfoil is a good idea. Air foils rely on the air stream velocity difference across the top and bottom surfaces to create lift by lowering the pressure above the airfoil as the air has to move faster. Rather I would try having more intakes across the top of the airfoil and exhaust out along the surface of the trailing edge. This principle is used on the B-2 and B-21 to increase the air speed across the top of the air foil. I almost wonder if the ground was on the surface of the airfoil and the wire was basically placed above and in front of the surface mounted ground could you increase lift even at higher angles of attack as the air stream would stick to the airfoil longer. I wonder if this could almost be an electric flap.
It definitely feels like there are options here for really precisely shaping airflow over the wing by tuning the angles and power ratios of the propulsion units.
Aerospace Engineer here. Just spitballing off the top of my head, yes, placing the ion thruster inside the wing is definitely the way to go. Essentially a series of ion drive slats. There's a lot of different options, you could also perforate the top of the wing to create low pressure. Could do the old wing tip thruster trick Sikorsky tried. All sorts of ideas come to mind. I think @PlasmaChannel needs more help in the aero department.
@@jadcb159 Absolutely ! Early in this video I noticed his original stated problem of thrusters added on to other structures was still present at the end of the video. If the thrusters were inside the wing and a structural part of it, it seems a bunch of weight and drag would go away. Simple….never to be confused with easy. 🥸
Put the thrusters under the wing where pressure is high (more ions there). It will also increase the lift, allowing for a wing profile with a bit less lift.
The fast moving air must be at the top of the wing, not under the bottom for generating lift. A plane is not only about trust, also about lift . Remember the very old trick of 2 pieces of paper hanging parallel. hen blowing ait vetween them they ar closing together...which tells us that the pressure to the surfaces decreases when the air flows faster.
Awesome. I learned a lot. Keep going. This could be revolutionary.
subbed for the pioneering of ion engines. dont disapoint
Awesome work! The science, the creativity, the cinematography, all of it is very top notch! Looking forward to the next episode!
@@RepentandbelieveinJesusChrist5 aight. Chatbotsayswut?
0:35 Video: bald eagle. Sound: red-tailed hawk.
I wanted to say that 😂 Funny how Americans are soooo proud of there bald eagles but didn’t like it’s sound 😂😂😂😂
Put the ionic thruster inside of the wing. Then it will like a jet! I played around with the ionic thruster back in 1973 for steering a rocket, using them in space, they worked!
The concept of a "Blown" wing has been around for many years with the only question being HOW are we going to force the air over the wing... As technology has progressed you have found what, I believe, will be the first practical NMP drive. (no moving parts). I am a pilot who loves to fly in the backcountry and "we" are always looking for lightweight, super reliable powerplants for our exploits and this appears to be the beginning of the development of a super simple and very reliable powerplant. I believe that your thoughts on using a long, high-aspect-ratio wing is a good start. You may also consider the shorter high lift wing, like on a bush plane and using more drive lines over the longer cord that wing offers. This concept can also be applied to a propeller generating thrust with NO torque. Amazing weight reduction because you have no heavy engine... I look forward to seeing your progress with great anticipation. Once you get to a point of practical application you might consider hooking up with a pilot/inventor/fabricator by the name of Michael Paitey. This is just the kind of idea that would attract his interest. He has an imagination like yours and the financial base to develop it if it inspires him... I would love to talk with about what you are doing of you are willing. My email is stoneytruett54@gmail.com
Dude, that is wicked! You are really on to something with this. Also love the competiveness between you two!
Cool prototype but would never be able to be used.
@@johnhilton145 No, not with current tech. But the concept is very interesting!
Wasn't that was said to the Wright Brothers?
@@ericheydemann9556 Oh for sure, but this is slightly different. In order to make this work, you need a lot of power in a very light package. MIT has been trying to crack this too and have flown concept models that have worked. But those were across a large gym and only had enough power to fly that length and basically no flight controls. A few more things need to be created before this would be viable.