Designing a Futuristic Magnetic Turbine (MHD drive)
A solid state turbine may be the next evolution for marine travel, just like Novium is the next evolution of pens.
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Learning from my first design, I created an improved marine thruster that uses magnetohydrodynamic thrust. It took the better part of a month, and plenty of tests. This really pushed my 3D printing skills to the limit, but it also lead to fully functional thruster that outperformed my expectations. Thanks to Onshape for their awesome modeling program. Create a free Onshape account here: Onshape.pro/PlasmaChannel
First MHD thruster video here: • Using Stealth Propulsi...
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#future #innovation #MHD
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First
What kind of gas is your thruster creating, electrolytically?
Wonder if the current would protect it from plant/mollusc issues? Cool design, well done.👍
Would using copper as the electrodes increase thrust? Obviously, it would be more prone to corrosion. Also, would sealing the outside of the electrode help? This is so awesome!
Hunt for the -Red- Green October...
Let's make a *big* one together.
engage the caterpillar drive!
Bump vote for the collab!
Gogogo collab!
Step up the voltage
10-4 my Canadian friend. Let’s make it happen!
Just a tip for your demonstrations, try adding fine mica powder to the water instead of ink. The mica shows flow and looks really cool, but most importantly it shows basically every detail of turbulence, flow and direction very clearly. (Think of those cool paint mixing videos with the insane swirls and colors.) and they come in basically any color and you only need to add it once and it will just continue to work without constantly adding dye or particulates. We used this technique in school when we learned about fluid dynamics and I use them all the time for resin work, so they’re readily available now because of the popularity of epoxy crafting.
No cool color change though.
That's actually a great suggestion, I hope he does this.
But mica is much denser than water (2.7x to 3x) - wouldn't the mica particles settle pretty quickly?
from the data presented here, you can easily calculate the efficiency to be 0.12%. A ship propeller has a hydrodynamic efficiency of about 60%. That is a factor of 500. There is much more Energy in the electrolysis, and electrolysis is needed for the current.
what about coating the new engine in a hydrophobic coating like military applications?
How did you calculate that?
@@gabrieledutli7940 'power out' is water force x water vel...... force is rate of change of momentum so useful power out is 3.65x.5x.5 = 0.9125 W 'in' the water flow. 'Power in' is all electric is volts x current = 30 x 25 = 750 W. Eff is power out/power in .9125/750 = 0.00122 = .122%
@@jumpievaprobably creates a ton a drag
Not to mention the electrolysis products being discharged into the water. Can you imagine the effects of the copious amounts of chlorine gas and sodium hydroxide on marine life?
The lack of rotating components is actually a great feature of the turbine considering how damage prone a high speed propeller is to light impacts. This would also minimise marine wildlife incidents where props end up cutting and harming marine life. It also means that there would be significantly less maintenance and manufacturing requirement, and being sealed off as one part is a very good trait for something designed to be leakproof
One thing I'm wondering about is whenever or not the reaction caused by the electrolysis could have a negative effect on marine life. Or if that's purely an "annoyance" to the maintenance.
@@BloodyMobile I don't believe that there is any effect on the water quality. Some of the water just gets turned into hydrogen and oxygen which I doubt would be enough to effect the atmosphere either. However if it did become mainstream that may produce a sizeable amount of hydrogen and oxygen.
Marine wheels (props) are made from high carbon stainless steel and bronze alloy. These alloys are blended and casted. They are work hardened tough.
@@viduraherath4008 I don't know for sure but I would think most of the hydrogen and oxygen would just recombine once they're no longer excited by the MHD. There could be other (potentially harmful) byproducts though so it's certainly worth looking into (high energy environments can cause reactions to occur that wouldn't otherwise).
Did you forget about the electricity running through it? 🤣
I’d like to see a boat, but even more a comparison of efficiency between propellers and your drive.
also in terms of noise (especially passive sonar)
@@derpraktikant8862 Yes, hadn’t thought of that but sound level by efficiency would be really valuable.
in terms of efficiency there is no comparison. This thruster is running at about 1horsepower, or 750w. A 1 hp motor with a prop would move vastly more water at higher speed, by 2-3 orders of magnitude. This is really just a cool experiment on solid state propulsion.
@@licencetoswill It is cool. So what if your current device isn’t a feasible solution. Further optimization could be interesting. I’d love to know the calculations on possible efficiency. I’m an Anthropologist so I’m way out of my depth here, just spitballing. Because I can see the applications for ocean transportation. Too many large marine mammals die or are injured by propellers every year.
@@waynesworldofsci-tech Вы желаете, что-бы они погибали от отравления хлором или поражения электрическим током?
These would seem more interesting on a submarine rather than a boat especially since you could have them articulate in any direction for better 3d movement compared to a propellor
Yes, and with nuclear powered sub, energy production isn't an issue.
Hunt For Red October has entered the chat
Давно известен лучший движитель чем гребной винт - насос создающий давление плюс сопло преобразующее давление в скорость. Или иначе говоря, это водомет. А у показанного принципа движения КПД хуже чем у паровоза.
@@paulstrealer5414 Red October was a real boat and actually happened, CMV.
@@BSpinoza210 Haha... no.
Invented 1966 and tested with an submarine EMS-1 at the coast of California... Also Mitshubishi worked on it in the 1980-90s. They need about 4 Tesla to make it work. Probably does not work with sweet water rivers.
Oh man, a boat with these things would be awesome! Not sure if you meant toy/model boat or something bigger, but it'd be neat to see how many it takes to move a canoe or something small-but-mannable
If the USN gave up on it, you can imagine why it's not usable.
His buddy peter Schripol could probably help him out again. Another great opportunity for a project together.
Rctestflight would probably love to test something like this
There's a yhat in the middle east that uses them
@aserta The USN actually hasn't given up on them. They stopped trying to use them for massive war ships (for the moment). But they're still looking into them for small unmanned submersibles and suicide boats. Reason being the MHD would be able to simulate the magnetic structure of something like a carrier and have a small cheap drone destroyed then an almost half billion dollar carrier. Also they're looking into for stealth subs for groups like Marsoc and Seals to help with quiet insertion and exhilaration of near coast targets. Also they're still looking at them for warships they're just trying to have them mature enough that it isn't expensive as hell to retrofit the Fleet. With more craft becoming nuclear power capabile these drives will likely come back up. Mostly due to them actually lowering the complexity of the crafts instead of increasing them. Fewer moving parts, fewer things for people to get sucked into.
That's awesome! Also I think you just gave me an idea
If you or anyone gets a chance. Try out different setups. Try concentric ones. Try longer ones. Multi stage. Mess with the difference between the amp/volt relationships. Electromagnets vs permanent. And lastly. If you can skim the byproducts from the electrolysis for a second propulsion system above the water. I might or might not get the chance to do these tests myself. But I just started a new job and have a huge backlog of projects. Including functional active camo like in Halo or Predator. I think I've got something but I just don't have much time on my hands. Not sure I'd call it active camo either as it doesn't even need a power source. So not really your department. But absolutely try out the mhd stuff. I'm very curious about what provides the highest performance from drives that use zero moving parts
search up eric laithwaite magnets video, its an old video on youtube, he shows a mechanism that can propel without moving objects but only ac. and no its not your usual ac motor, the propulsion is very similar in the designs principle in this video.
Another trans-Atlantic battle? Velocity King?
If they team up with HackSmith then you should team up with @colinfurze to level the playingfield
Lol pin integza
My first thought..."one ping only" 😂 can't beat that caterpillar drive
The power of Red October. Thank you, great video
The one thing that i am not really sure about this idea is that you could actually see the dye shift colours (a possible indication of pH change as Sodium Hydroxide is being produced trough the electrolysis of salt water). Also, the chlorine produced gets bond to the sodium Hydroxide to make sodium chlorate. Not sure if alot of ships using this technology would produce significant amounts of either sodium Hydroxide or Sodium Chlorate thst could affect marine life. I mean sodium Hydroxide is corrosive to metal and skin
I don't think it would be an issue to the marine life in the order of magnitude of power used and sodium chloride produced. In fresh water, that should not be a thing at all. Much more problematic, in my opinion, would be the corrosion of the electrodes. Stainless steel compared to the zincked iron is of a very limited improvement in this application. That is one of the reasons why you don't see much of this kind of propulsion out there. If I'm not mistaken, the application of platinum solves the issues, but with the penalty of a ridiculously high costs.
@@vaterchenfrost7481 carbon electrodes does not have corrosion problem. can also use silver if not a budget problem.
Both are soluble in water and the ions are coming from the water so literally how could this even be an issue? As soon as the compound forms it dissolves and it goes back to where it came from as the separate ions it was before.
The salt in the water is merely a catalyst. No more sodium or chlorine products are left in the water than what started there. Plus, sodium hydroxide and hydrochloric acid both disassociate completely in water and the result is identical to the salt (sodium chloride) dissolved in the water in the first place.
@@primodernious actualy I thought that the positive pole of that electrode will errode away by recombining it self with oxygen molecules - becoming carbone dioxide.
Have you considered electromagnets for this purpose? It would make it harder to repair since you now have a bunch of wires sticking through the outer casing but may provide a benefit in strength of the magnetic field and resultant thrust. Individual control of these could also possibly provide thrust vectoring without movement of the nozzles?
I think the electromagnets could be wound around the current neodymium magnets as the "cores" as the central electrode is being fed. That way the internal inductance of the wire adds to the already existing magnetic field (maybe?)
That would suck more power than a permanent magnet as well. In this case the simplest solution is probably the best, putting the thruster on a pivot would provide precise control
That would make it really power inefficient
@@mduckernz At the moment it is horribly inefficient, because all the power is going into electrolysis. The only way I can see to fix this is to go with a tiny voltage, less than required for electrolysis, and a stupidly strong magnetic field.
@@robertbackhaus8911Easy said. Though in full scale it could be done. Focus the power in the magnets and only feed a bit into the electrodes? I could see it. I say have solar or something to recharge your power source over time. It'll be power hungry for sure. Idk what the amp relationship needed is for this application. But I am curious. Could potentially pump higher volts with lower amps through longer electrodes. In general this probably benefits from longer electrodes. Maybe run it or several through the entire hull and use a rudder as normal for steering. Tbh sections of electrodes at lower voltage could work and be easier on maintenance. Probably better for consistency as well. My main issue with electro magnets is keeping that circuit isolated from the circuit the water closes between the electrodes.
It's brilliant because it's simple...well done jedi.
Yeah man definitely build the boat, this is sick.
Great video! A few suggestions. As there is no more moving parts in an MHD drive, you don't necessarily have to put the engine inside like a conventional motor. Instead, you can put the engine outside ;) i.e. deploy the MHD interaction everywhere around the external fuselage, making it an "external flow MHD accelerator" with the benefit of acting on the wavefront and the drag along the whole wetted area. Another trick: when you glue the same poles of two 1T magnets together, face-to-face, you nearly double the magnetic flux density and get almost a 2T magnetic field strength right on their junction plane. In addition, in order to avoid electrode corrosion due to electrolysis, it is best to use graphite electrodes, even if steel is better than cooper indeed. Speaking of electrolysis, you are limited by the conductivity of salt water: you could use an acidic bath instead and boost the induced flow velocity even further (except if your aim is to eventually test a boat or submersible down the road). What limits the efficiency of such a small drive is the relative weakness of the magnetic field, and the limited amount of current density that the fluid can bear before electrolysis becomes dominant up to the deleterious situation of thermal blockage, a phenomenon that could be compared to a conventional motor burning due to heat accumulated by the Joule effect (same mechanism). Therefore, you should use a power supply that controls direct current not voltage, to better tune the whole thing, and even calculate precisely the current density J your fluid can accept depending on its electrical conductivity and the surface of your electrodes. Indeed the Lorentz force acting on a fluid is a body force, a force per unit volume, in newtons per cubic meter (in SI units). That's also why the electromagnetic force J×B can be very powerful as it can act on a large volume of fluid. But this is another longer story and I was speaking of the efficiency. Compared to a traditional propeller, the magnetic field B of an MHD drive is akin to the pitch angle of the blades, while the current density J is the rotation speed. With such a low power magnetic field and electric current set too high wrt the fluid (its electrical conductivity), it's like someone who would use a propeller with blades having an infinitesimal pitch angle. He would have to rotate the propeller at an insane amount of RPMs to barely move. The main thing we're doing in this case is not propulsion, but heating the ambient fluid! That's why MHD drives appear so "inefficient". But they are not: they simply don't have the appropriate input values, as our technology is not yet advanced enough (hint: room-temperature superconducting multitesla electromagnets and powerful yet light and compact electrical power generators onboard).
So you're telling me the US navy's probably already researching it out in the middle of the ocean
@@imperialguardsman135 Not necessarily using external-flow MHD drives, as opening the field lines around the hull is like driving around in a car with a flashing beacon hence is much more prone to detection. The Voyenno-Morskoy Flot prefers submarines and UUVs operating in total discretion with internal-flow ducted drives like the OP (no such discretion however for their hypervelocity MHD torpedo, a Big, Fat one, powered by a compact Pavlovskii generator of course, whose nozzle melts and lasts only a few seconds upon firing - but that's okay as at over 1,000 kts it doesn't need more time before reaching its target like a bullet). However, maybe that's the case for some of these transient super fast USOs detected with no explanation across decades? Among many other testimonies, Admiral Timothy Cole Gallaudet provided a statement about these mysterious objects recently.
@@imperialguardsman135 the US Navy will degauss submarines to change up their magnetic signatures... they've already done the research
@@fluxcapacitor are you kidding me? Russian technology is a fucking joke. Russia just executed the scientist responsible for the failed moon drone.
Strangely I’ve recently been attracted to “playing with Magnets”… and the ideas start flowing on the possibilities of moving vehicles via Magnetism… and that’s what LED me here…. But wow you took it to a whole new level! Awesome Video! You’re way Advanced! 🧲 🙏
I'd be interested to see the thrust-to-weight ratio of the old and new designs. While it might cut down on noise, i cant imagine an engine that weighs more than its traditional counterpart without proportional thrust output will see widespread adoption . That said, i wonder if a multi-stage design would render any improvements like your plasma wing design. Whatever the case, i look forward to seeing what you come up with next!
He is generating about 0.5 W of actual pumping action* with 750 W of power. I do not think we need to discuss such values as long as this is as inefficient (0.07 % Efficiency). *0.00365 m³/s *1050 kg/m³ / 2 * (0.5 m/s)^2 = 0.48 Watt
@@leocurious9919 It is however super sneaky and stealthy
the splitting of water is where all the energy goes, if you could somehow capture H2 and O , that could justify the whole thing!
@@leocurious9919 unless I'm mistaken 1050 kg/m^3 is brine. 3.5%wt of salt to water would be a closer approximation to seawater. But the biggest complaint I have to the KE model to measuring efficiency is #1 Plasma Channel doesn't share salinity of his salt water and #2 he doesn't share how he came to calculate his fluid exhaust flow rate considering the flow is in a closed container with turbulent flow that is fastest in the middle and slowest on the periphery. It's almost pointless besides just a ballpark figure with huge uncertainties.
@@InfinionExperiments Small errors are irrelevant when we are several magnitudes away from relevant efficiencies. We can see that the velocity is not 10x higher. We know that the density is not 10x higher. We can see that the volume flow is not 10x higher. The numbers are ballpark right. The efficiency is absolutely terrible.
Just came upon your channel and that was excellent. You put a lot of time, effort and funds into that thruster, and it exceeded expectations. I had to subscribe.
One thing that would be nice to see is how a "competing" product would score. Like a model boat motor. Help to put things in scale for the viewer
I like how you said you sent the “final design” over to your printer, like you’re not laying in your bed staring at the ceiling imagining further upgrades and improvements right now. LoL. This channel is awesome. Keep innovating and inspiring.
Instead of measuring exhaust speed I would be interested in seeing it floated in the tank and static thrust measured with a scale, also static thrust per watt. I think this thing probably pulls an awful lot of power compared to a traditional prop judging by the fact that the cables caught fire.
yeah, the thruster in the video is pulling about 750W ^^
@@The.Heart.Unceasingyeah you could drive a half or 3/4 horsepower motor with that and have a good deal more power.
@@deltab9768 yeah that's what I figured, MHD drives don't make a lot of sense in mundane application, unless you absolutely need to make the less noise possible or have no moving part. (tl:dr for the rant that follows : MHD very good for space uses and can work as a generator too) they make a lot more sense in near to mid future space tech, because the conductive fluide they need can be plasma, so you can make some pretty high-end thruster with them or boost a thermal one (the big plume of a thermal thruster (any thruster that uses heat to fling the propellant out the back, so chemical, nuclear, solar, etc) is plasma after all, so if you can accelerate that further you can boost the specific impulse (the space equivalent of miles per gallon)), or as generator, because the assembly produces electricity if you pass high-speed conductive fluid through it, like some sort of blade-less turbine, which is very interesting in space where the spin of a big turbine could destabilize a ship and maintenance on a big spiny thing might be tricky (but on the other hand, for a MHD generator to work you need a reactor that output high-speed plasma, so it's not exactly safe either)(but if you think about it it's just a confined rocket engine, so it should be feasible)(even more so if we master nuclear thermal rockets).
@deltab9768 Yup these engines are highly inefficient, only good in zero resistance cases.... aka in space where long term thrust to gain speed isn't an issue.
@@SilvaDreams yeah in particular you need a situation where “back EMF” is high enough to be a good percentage of the supply voltage. That means a small, fast stream of propellant (like what you’re talking about with using it for low force in outer space) or it means using a more conductive material, a wider gap, and a stronger magnetic field. Something like this could be incredibly forceful if it had a big iron magnetic yoke, an aquarium of liquid metal and was being fed with 500mV/1.5kA. In fact I believe there’s a nuclear reactor that uses Liquid potassium alloy and a MHD pump for the cooling system.
@PlasmaChannel you should try some more extreme hydrodynamic optimization. You could slightly "spiralize" the thrust water channels to provide a directed flow that reduces turbulence losses at the exit, try making that central nose cone longer, and copy what modern high bypass turbofan engines do by using that central area of thrust water to pull in surrounding water through a cone. I would love to see what those modifications can do to improve the impulse. Exhaust velocity isn't everything afterall
Weld a lot of the outer tubes side by side, and 3D print the magnet housing to be buoyant, and hey-presto you've got the back part of a boat which uses it's propulsion system as a stressed member.
Live current through a structure, yaaaaay...
I definitely want to see you build a boat powered by your solid state thrusters.
Would love to see a scale replica of a cargo carrier vessel with a set of these and perhaps either azipod based or the through hull mounted thrusters some carriers use. Perhaps if there was a way to create a suitable powerbank in a water sealed environment? Would be super cool!
Glad he caught up to the Russian experiments in the early 1990's. And the German experiments from the 1940's. Just wait until he figures out fractal field networks, v-gating or Bussard ramscooping.
This concept is super cool, but I can’t see it happening unless there is some huge breakthrough making them super powerful. This system would bee using the same concept as azipods, because they are a huge advantage when it comes to manoeuvrability. And idk the exact numbers on how effective an propeller is, so KW in compared to thrust, but I can’t imagine that this system will be capable of getting anywhere near that.
I believe soviet submarines tried this kind of propulsion to eliminate noise for silent running but they never really caught on. I think the US is currently fielding a couple of subs with this kind of technology right now as well.
Taking the time to explain your premise, testing, revisions, and processes brings us on the journey with you.
you may want to try to put an angle on those blades to make a simulated spiral like the propeller creates. then make a shallow but elongated cone on the exhaust end to make a jet thrust. it may create enough pressure to get your cm/sec up with no increase in volts added
If you would want to improve it once again, you could take advantage of Halbach Array. It will amplify "useful" magnetic field, and at the same time eliminate magnetic filed leaking outside. I don't know, if this will heavily affect the radial design, but it might be worth trying.
I think the correct way to do a halbach array is a cylindrical one that creates a unidirectional magnetic field perpendicular to the cylinder's axis on the inside and use linear electrodes to get the current perpendicular to the magnetic field and the cylinder axis.
The Halbach Array intensifies and contracts one side of the magnetic field and dissipates the other side, so the current configuration of the spoke magnets would not benefit. If The magnets were on the outer radius and inner axle, then it may benefit from the Halbach array.
What happens it you turn the magnets so they are in a radial orientation rather than axial? Basically form a cylinder instead of spokes.
Have you considered a graphite coating? If the carbon is painted well enough it should solve the need to replace pipes. Consider insulating the exterior of the outer tube and the interior of the inner tube, might be able to reduce back flow. Edit: I memorized the formula wrong, edit for physics.
*_When you run a current through salt water, you get hydrogen and chlorine forming by electrolysis. Chlorine is highly corrosive (even compared to salt water), poisonous, and explosive in combination with hydrogen. Since the gases form as bubbles, surely this process is also noisy._* not silent at all. This would pollute the environment exponentially and is better off remaining shelved.
yep, as a chemist I basically lost my speech lol, "oh the propellers are noisy", so let's then pollute enviroment with super agressive chemicals, sounds like a smart idea
and there are so many positive comments from people who obviusly don't know a thing in chemistry asking for a bigger engine, and it's scary. maybe someone should contact some famous established chemist to ask to end this madness
I was wondering about this too, glad to see I wasn't alone in that It was terrifying to me how quickly that 15 gallon tank became a cloud of byproducts, especially at higher voltages.
Im sorry but do you guys have a brain damage? Hydrogen in this concentrations is harmless. Meanwhile amounts of chlorine produced by a fleet of those things whould be miniscule in comparison to all the chlorine from all the tao water ending in rovers and oceans each day. Come on. When you pretend to be chemist you need to be more convincing
I work with salt pools I should know that
This channel and Smarter Every Day, such a wealth of knowledge and practical science
That means a lot, thank you
It would be awesome if you could capture the byproduct hydrogen and oxygen gases created by the electrolysis of this thruster and create a type of afterburner that ignites them and creates more thrust from the wasted energy
Or feed it into a hydrogen fuel cell to get some energy back to power the anode and cathode
not great for real world application tho, one spark and that's a big boom
@@camerongarson9963 big booms are pretty awesome too :)
@@camerongarson9963 suck, squeeze, bang, boom. add a piston or turbine and that works exactly how we want. The bigger challenge to overcome is getting those gases out of the water during operation since the structure would impede the flow path and decrease the thrust.
And just like that, the whales were dying again
You should try Prusa's new organic supports. This design doesn't look like the standard grid supports were necessary.
It'd be fascinating to see how scale changes output by like half size. this is wicked mate can't wait to see more
You are amazing!! I am very impressed. In my next life I hope to some of the things that you do. Look forward to see if a boat will move with your design.
While powering a boat would be fun to see. I think it'd be worthwhile to go through a few more rounds of optimization first. Still seems underwhelming, even at the higher voltages, where your later optimizations seemed to have a reduced effect.
For something that consumes 750W, the thrust produced is absolutely pitiful. The efficiency just isn't there. Too much waste doing electrolysis.
@@haphazard1342 worse than that. meh. what he fails to do is set it up so it can MOVE. little rotating arm... a load cell... like everyone, showing a stationary "jet" and the airspeed out the back... it means NOTHING yet they all do it... im of the opinion that they dont work at all, that its simply ions from electrolysis that are moving, inducing slight water flow but there no real magnetic coupling of currents, no interaction of induced, moving, and stationary fields... that the water is "dragged along for the ride" rather than actually contributing to "thrust". the only "thrust" would be the reaction to moving those ions in the magnetic field. not the water.
Change the cathode to graphene for more conduction and thus increase the flow. You can also change the inner wall of the collector to aluminum. I am impressed because I have made almost the same design for the new thruster but for a drone, so our goals are different but our approaches are the same. All the best for further development and see you soon in real life for such projects. Hope you read my comment ❤
Bump to see this guys comment responded to
Thank you, I think the radial design is potentially the way to go. One problem with using graphene is that it will cloud up the water and turn it black quite quickly. Even just the smallest amount of graphite or graphene dissolving away from electroless us turns the water black.
@@PlasmaChannel oh I see! Let's search for a better element to increase the efficiency as radial degine is almost at its potential so I think we can work on material to improve it ! I will contact soon after completing a more research in material and degine see you soon buddy. Btw love your videos ❤ keep growing 😊
Can you use quartz crystal as a diode ? It is peizoekectric so would it work still ?
This guy is a genius. But couldn't find his name anywhere, not even in the video. Hope he gets a patent fast. Genius.
Very cool, man! I can’t wait to see what else you have planned for this technology! Your high level of intelligence, amazes me! Great work, and thank you for your time, effort, and expense you put into your videos!
Have you considered inserting neutral Stainless Steel plates in the gaps between each fin in the thruster? Though the neutral plates would not be directly connected, current would flow across the neutral plates, by way of the connection through the water. The neutral plates should produce additional thrust and would lower the amperage, because they will reduce the distance the electricity has to travel between plates. Hopefully this helps. Great Video and thank you for sharing.
Off the top of my head, I believe this may lower output because now the entire water column isn't conducting...thus...the entire water column doesn't have a magnetic field internally, to be influenced by the external fields. But hell, i'm definitely wrong from time to time. I'll look into this. Thank you.
This also ends up being a really cool way to get chlorine gas. 😆 Jokes aside, this is a very impressive motor. I wish you the best with your future attempts to optimize it.
Why not also utilize the generated hydrogen for additional propulsion? :D
@@MagicGumable that would be hard to utilize IMO. Also H generation in salt water is much smaller because Cl is going out first. There is also that think about making HCl, which i guess would not be so environmentally friendly and also the corrosion on electrodes doesn't sound like fun at all in terms of maintenance. But in small model scale it is quite cool for sure :)
@@UFO_nThe thing is that hydrogen is being produced but sodium Hydroxide is being produced as well. Now, chlorine does bond to sodium Hydroxide to form sodium chlorate (hydrogen chloride isn't really produced). However sodium Hydroxide (or to more precise caustic soda) is corosivr and dissolves organic matter (hence used in drain cleaners). Key to it's destructive powers is the concentration
@@UFO_n Hydrogen Production is the same i trink, chlorine production is concurring with oxygen production here. No HCl should be formed as you need to heat hydrogen and chlorine together, but bleach is made. So with bleach and chlorine Gas, maybe do this outside. Edit: Ok maybe what @photonik-luminescence said Though i‘m pretty sure about the bleach
@@UFO_n Surely, the toughest part would be the collection of the hydrogen byproduct in a sufficient quantity to even achieve some meaningful propulsion. Hence why it was a rhetorical question, unless someone is crazy enough to try it and produce a video on it... ;)
Great job going solid state in any field is the greatest technical leap.
I've had many sleepless nights with magnetohydrodynamic thrust.
man, remember me when you're a billionaire, ok?
He’s doing millions in free research and development for the mega companies actually.
But... this is no "new", or I'm wrong?
@@asterlofts1565 no it’s not but he’s designing more efficiency. Doubtful it’s ever for boats but maybe other applications. And I doubt it makes him or anyone millions. Just by him making yt videos he’s got a decent income from the views.
Me too!
@@The_RC_Guruhe could maybe make a research company and get some rich guy to buy shares in it
Have you considered adding an angled trailing edge to the rear of the channels to induce a vortex or spiral? Look at the works of Viktor Schauberger... He did some amazing studies of the natural movement of water. Also, it would be interesting to see the difference of increasing Amps rather than Voltage
If the magnets are mounted at slight angle (squirrel cage arrangement) you can twist the vorticies and that should laminarize the output (maybe even get a performance boost for it).
Man, this old tech. Tom Clancy made reference to Magneto hydrodynamic drives in "The Hunt for Red October". Otherwise known as the "Caterpillar Drive".
Great work and great video! The strength of MHD is not simply in direct application of Laplace forces to fluids but is its ability to manipulate the fluid around the moving object to remove turbulences and hence have only laminar flows. It would be great to see some prototypes that make use of this ability.
Great work, I also have some design improvements. The change to radial was a great decision, but you should also change the flow channels to radial. Think about a shell and tube heat exchanger for reference. It may reduce some magnetic efficiency but I think the flow efficiency could be more important. The bubbles being produced clearly indicate turbulent flow (or electrolysis, probably not that though.) Also look at the Dyson vacuum and how it has several smaller channels for flow better
The bubbles are CHLORINE GAS.
you can also massively reduce the print time if you do away with the vertical supports (by adding a 45degree chamfer on the top side)
@@bpark10001Wrong. It's Hydrogen and Oxygen and a little Chlorine.
The bubbles are H² and O², mostly. They likely also contain disolved gasses that are released when the water is heated.
@@kevin_6217 When you electrolyze salt water, you get chlorine gas. Chlorine ions are easier to oxidize than oxygen, so chlorine comes out in preference. Some of the free chlorine gas bubbles free & the rest dissolves in the water & reacts with chloride ions still in the water to form hypochlorite ions, which are the highly-reactive ions in chlorine bleach. This will INSTANTLY kill fish. The efficiency of this type of engine is INSANELY LOW, on the order of 1%. Were it not for the volume of water flowing through & the high heat-capacity of water, the water would soon BOIL. The only way to increase the efficiency is to increase the intensity of the magnetic field. With present technology, that requires SUPERCONDUCTOR magnet.
I am literally so jealous of that pen omg wth I absolutely love it.
Would love to see a boat with these attached. The question about performance in fresh water(lake/river) and sea water would be interesting.
great innovation
I'd love to see a boat built with these bad boys! Maybe another collab with the rc dude, and see if you can make a solar powered boat with them like the one he's got.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_1
This is absolutely incredible
I would love to see that boat. It would be supper cool!
Fantastic! I would like to see a boat built with some of these turbines! Great food for thought!
Go watch Hunt for Red October.....
Have you considered using aluminum or Graphite for the electrodes? Aluminum should transfer the same amount of power, but at a lower weight, increasing efficiency since it has to push less mass through the water and may also be a less expensive material. Likewise, graphite is probably a little more expensive, it should have electrical conductivity properties, weight even less than Aluminum and be more resistant to corrosion both from electrolysis, but also from the marine environment as well. Brass/bronze is used a lot in marine environments for its durability and resistance to corrosion, but I think it would be even heavier and more expensive to use, although I have no proof, just conjecture.
Graphite could be perfect for this, actually
The shirts! Definitely an unconscious decision
Can't wait for the finish product. I'm sure you can find a way to make it lighter and stronger.
awesome idea! have you considered using electroplating to the plastic directly for your electrodes and does putting a smaller exit nozzle on inprove or make it worse? love this channel as always! :)
Yes lets see a part 2 of this! You could also create a outer intake ring that would further help the flow. Check out the designs they use on Jet engine intakes on test stands. Another option is to crank up the volts to see how high you can go before arcing- would be fun. Lastly create a way to ignite the Hydrogen Oxygen mix as a afterburner lol lol .
Perfect project!
Wow dude sooo impressed with your work!
Sooo glad I subscribed, this channel is pure charged fire, keep it up!
Thanks, I really appreciate you
@PlasmaChannel you and Peter (boat+plane guy) could easily collab on an electric boat!!!!
Just a thought but water doesn't like to move in a linear trajectory, maybe try spirals for the printed part. Awesome progress!
That's exactly what I just thought of
Congratulations!! Seria una innovación extraordinaria. Magnifica y pedagogica explicación. Muy buenas imagenes y animaciones tridimensionales.
I like the fact of very few moving parts and much quieter noise levels for ships. This is a good concept for noise reduction. Although you do still need electricity... a lot of it! Even with solar panels or sails you may not have enough power to increase to the level of ferries, or bulk carriers and tankers and container ships. This is great for people, but what about whales? We now run them over with the big ships and need a mechanism to warn them not to come closer to the ships. This is a great start.
Nice I only see one issue if your going to make this into a boat. The electrolyses reaction with the stainless steel does strip of really bad poisons, like chromium . Graphite is a safer option.
Also, wouldn't any electrolysis with salt water create chlorine which is also terribly poisonous ?
Great project! Would be cool if you could show us some numbers in comparison with classic engines, for example the power consumption to thrust raio. Just the output velocity alone does not say a lot. And also you might consider testing the engine on different water velocities. Many motors produce a lot of thrust at a specific relative speed but may completly fail when testing in a real environment on a boat for example. A graph comparing the thrust between relative speeds would be awesome!
.......don't forget " parasitical drag " ......it's still an interesting device that would have value .
That's awesome, I've made sooooo many different ones in as many different sizes and ratios to each. It's been a couple years since my lt one, but I still make electromagnets all the time and try to keep my printers going non-stop/maintain 100s of prints lined up for things I want to make and improve on. All three have always fascinated me, you never know who will stumble across something that may be used as the foundation for something used for years to come/what will come from the next person's idea after that! We know magnets lose their charge and that we can rebuild that charge. We can magnetize other objects altogether... Liquids that can carry charges may some day bridge the gap, eliminating the discharge rate and corrosion which would change how we can use them altogether. If we can keep it from heating, maintain a perfectly steady charge, force and eliminate the wires running to it that will burn up before anything else... I really want to see the day we have permanently, sustainable suspension! Several different thought process going on there... Helps me to think, even if nobody ever reads this, it helped me think of something i hadn't before, just after I finished typing that!
Just an amazing project again 😱
I love this, you should definitely make a boat or submarine using some of these!
Submarine would be really cool.
I’m sure the U.S. navy will be very interested in using MHD drives for their submarines. You should apply for a DARPA contract to mount MHD drives on small submersibles like the SEAL Delivery Vehicle (SDV) or underwater drones and then work up to larger vessels.
They probably already do tbh their turbines are always hidden
They already were, that's what the hunt for red October was about. The issue is they could still detect the subs due to electrolysis
They wouldn't be terribly interested given how loud and inefficient they are. Those gas bubbles are going to collapse at depth, and you can't avoid making them, so, defacto cavitation. On top of that, cavitation will tear this apart just like it would a propeller.
Cavitation would destroy this electrode quite fast. The navy uses tubercles on the sub props to lower cavitation. That's why they're hidden.
this guys is the best KZheadr in KZhead. Keep up your good work!
Just keep making these projects and these videos ❤! One day these things definitely gonna stand up
It would be great to see some force numbers for these thrusters, in addition to the speeds. I think that would give a much better idea of how these actually compare to traditional thrusters.
same thought here. Very interested about the thurst power
Very cool designs. It's pretty neat that solid state propulsion is no longer just a thing of science fiction. Although for future iterations I wonder how you could increase thrust without needing to increase power drastically. I recently saw a video where there were a number of people attempting to apply biomimicry to propeller designs by emulating the shape of tubercles on whale flippers to increase efficiency. I wonder if applying a similar thought process to the intake/output sections of your MHD would change the thrust velocity in any meaningful way?
This guy is just too amazing
We were testing this shit in the US NAVY in the 80’s. The Naval academy won a underwater propulsion contest with their version.
It's really intersting stuff. Luckly, material science has come a long way since then - 40 years ago. So, MHD drives these days present the best possibly.
Very good work man! Would it improve efficiency if you isolate the outer electrode outside? So you have no energy drain into gas production on the outer housing.
I know you’re making a thruster for propulsion, but could you offset the angle of the magnets or add angled fins to form a vortex? I’m kinda curious what the limit would be for the speed of the vortex created in an enclosed space.
sneaky boat, please build That is super super cool !
Great work! Id like to see what that thruster can do in a canoe with a couple of deep cycle batteries or better yet the lithium iron phosphate batteries. As for futher research, I think that this needs an underwater afterburner combustion component. If you think of this portion of the device as the compressor in a turbine, The immense amount of hydrogen and oxygen bubbles could then be focused into a combustion zone, ignited, and expanded outward through a properly shaped tube. Think of it like a ram jet but with underwater combustion.
When you say deep cycle batteries, you mean lead-acid batteries? The canoe would be DOA due to the intense weight of the lead and poor thrust to weight ratio. Even with lightweight (by comparison), higher energy dense LFP batteries, it would still weigh too much and go nowhere. It’s exceptionally inefficient. There’s very few applications for this.
Definitely should make a small scale ship to see the propulsion capabilities of your design. And if your results are linear you may be able to calculate in Knots what the purposed output of your turbine would be at full scale. Also was the salt mixture you used based on the salinity of ocean water?
In the previous video he said that he added salt to match the salinity of ocean water, but of course ocean water doesn't contain only sodium chloride, and its salinity varies by location.
@@brianb-p6586 Also fresh water outlets (Rivers into Bays) drastically dilute saline content. So coming into port or operating near a shoreline would drastically reduce thrust.
This is so cool! I didn't know this was actually possible. But how do you make a video about a Magneto Hydrodynamic Drive without making a reference to The Hunt for Red October? Definitely worth checking out :)
That was in the previous video. By the way, the MHD was only in the movie, not the book.
Definitely build that boat!
Fantastic, definitely love to see you build a boat powered by these turbines.
I'm curious could you combine an Ionic thruster with the principles of a MHD to increase the power of and Ionic thruster?
Quantumdrolysis lmfao
Hello! Nice video, but I have a question: do you really need to expose the electrodes to the salt water? what if you isolate them and just create the electric field without the electrolisis?
I am afraid it is necessary for the electrodes to be in contact with conductive water. If the electrodes are insulated, there will be no flow of electricity between the anode and cathode that interacts with the magnetic field, and as a result, there will be no thrust.
@@xplosiv3z799 I guess the interaction is between the magnetic field and the electric field, not between the magnetic field and the current. Am I wrong?
Heck yes, build a boat!
Even at ~47 cm/s, what you've got isn't actually a propulsion device. It's more of a low pressure fluid pump. Remember, you're trying to design something which will overcome not only its OWN mass, but the mass of whatever vehicle/vessel/craft you're trying to propel. F=M×A. If the mass doesn't move, there's no acceleration. If there's no acceleration, no work has been accomplished. If you can increase both functions of your design to at least move a small(ish) boat (relative to the size of the unit), I'll be impressed. Perhaps you can design a system similar to the fictional caterpillar drive of the Red October, but for a surface vessel.
The ions produced by the thruster are harmful for fishes as well.
probably the chlorine gas and electric field are the most harmful effects
Using the MHD as a more silent thruster is a fascinating concept and well worth pursuing, but I'd also be interested if you can reverse the process, i.e. Can one Generate Electricity by forcing saltwater through the turbine? Is that something you could test in a future video? Edit: this could be an interesting concept for tidal energy, especially for having no moving parts.
Unfortunately I think the answer is no, because what's really happening here is that the magnetic field is accelerating the flowing electrons in the fluid, and of course normal salt water has no flowing electrons to generate power with. Although, perhaps you could by running a small current through the incoming fast moving salt water to energize it like an AC generator's coils.
@@gajbooks Ah ok, thanks for your reply and hypothesis! Wouldn't the magnets polarize the saltwater, creating a voltage that can then get electrons to flow from the circuit you connect the generator to? It's not really my field of expertise to be honest, I'm more looking at this from a hydropower perspective. With AC it could also work indeed, but I'm wondering if it wouldn't just work as a transformer then, where the changing magnetic field of the electromagnets then directly induces the coils or electrodes meant for the electric current ignoring whatever your water flow does... The method you mention reminds me a bit of the bladeless wind turbine some researchers at TU Delft developed that let the airflow/wind carry electrons from the source to the receiving electrode (I suppose?) and thus creating a voltage/current in the circuit. A bit like one of the earlier versions of the Plasma Channel's ion thruster.
@@gajbooks I found a paper (see link below) that suggest that indeed a so-called Faraday voltage is created between electrodes when an electrolyte solution is flowing through a magnetic field. This would mean it is possible to generate power from a saltwater flow. However, I have no idea what would be the magnitude and if it's of any practical use. Link: www.epj-conferences.org/articles/epjconf/pdf/2012/15/epjconf_e2c2012_02011.pdf EPJ Web of Conferences DOI: 10.1051/epjconf 201223302011 (C) Owned by the authors, published by EDP Sciences, 2012
Yes definitely would like to see you make a boat move with this type of propulsion. I’ve been fascinated by magnetism for years and the hidden energy it can display. I know it’s a field the make the oil companies cringe but my thoughts they should get on board with it
A big inefficiency of this design is the electrolysis. If you could generate an electric field without doing electrolysis to the water then you would see multiple effects that would increase efficiency. I could see a future where shipping vessels could use a combination of wind and MHDs to make very efficient and cheaper to operate ships.
Great stuff. You've measured stream velocity and flow rate, but have you measured actual thrust? As in, force the thruster would apply to an attached vessel?
Thrust= Mass flow rate times exhaust velocity. He mentioned the salt concentration he was using in a previous video (And I did not take the time to look it up) but if we used 1 gram of water per ml (density or water at standard temperature and pressure, so not just a wild guess) and the data he summarizes at 10:10 that estimates thrust at 1.825 Newtons or about .41 pounds of force. Since the mass of the salt water is higher than 1 gram per ml and the actual measured velocity is a little lower than 50 cm/s I would guess that estimate is a close but a little high.
@@andy-in-indy This is the way to derive what the thrust should be--but I suspect the input variables have a broad range of measurement error. I should have been clearer in my comment--measuring the actual thrust with some kind of thrust "stand" would be much more accurate.
@@johnathancorgan3994 Agreed, the stand would be much more accurate and would take into account internal drag (so as test more efficient designs). Thanks for clarifying.
This man is a genius. Amazing stuff
Not a bad start. Well done.