Can ELECTRICIANS fit equipment inside the DNO METER BOX? - EV Charger Installation UK
You can easily assume some electrical installation methods are the norm. Hop over to Instagram or Linkedin and you'll see electricians proudly posting images of their latest electric vehicle charger installation.
The installation examples often include a small consumer unit added within the external electricity meter enclosure.
Is this an acceptable method - be decided to ask the UK DNO's all of them!
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00:00 Can you install electrical equipment within a meter box?
00:43 What's inside the electricity meter box.
01:08 What are we seeing on social media?
02:55 We decided to ask all of the DNO's
03:55 Energy Networks Association - official response
05:00 Electricity supply agreement
05:53 Where should EV supply equipment be installed?
07:25 An alternative solution
09:15 Room for innovation
10:00 Who owns the electricity meter box
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🛑 EV installers - speed up your projects with kzhead.info/sun/oaaAk5eNZ2tja6M/bejne.html
Great vid, I couldn't find anything in the regs on this so glad it's cleared up. Sometimes the fuseboard is located in the middle of the house so that's gonna be challenging for future installs.
As I see it , there are two solutions to the problem, the cabinets need to be 50% larger, or a second electrical cabinet fitted . The problem is get outside cables back to the CU without doing damage or where CUs fitted in the most awkward places such as under stairs or above kitchen wall cabinets , the sparks will take the easiest solution. most customer think you can magic cables into walls or under floors , the easy part is connecting the EV charger and doing the connection to CU but 75% or more of the time is spent installing the cable . With more EV chargers being installed both sides need to a rethink. Personal I'm thinking the answer is a dual cabinet with a partition , DNO side and consumer side
Sounds like a sensible solution
finally 👏 somebody has been brave enough to finally come out and tell everybody the truth regard the meterbox situation
If we get questions we try to find the answer. #bettertogether
@@barnabybot It’s called journalism - perhaps we’ll pass the gauntlet over to you Matt and see how much time you have to invest in order to retire on KZhead ad revenue.
@@barnabybot No! these are bloody good questions to ask. We all wanna know where we stand, not just guessing what the fuck they mean with a 2000 word essay leaving you grey in an answer and grey in hairs.
Im still not convinced that 'No' is the actual answer.
Got a pair on Henley blocks and a switch-fuse in mine, if it prevents the supplier from being able to fit a smart meter then that's a bonus 😂
🤣🤣🤣👍🏻
Mantel cabinets are specifically designed to have a skeleton fuse board within aswell as the meter, DNO fuse etc. Wylex market a replacement 18th edition 'skeleton' consumer unit designed to use the same mounting points as the original skeleton unit. Its a very tight fit inside the Mantel box.
When we wereworking for Staffordshire County Council in the early 90's their electrical inspector always said if there's a board in the meter cupboard take it out and install it inside the dwelling.
Yep. DNO's have been saying that for years.
Been looking into this a lot recently as I need somewhere to install another isolator for PV. The key word is 'recommend' not 'can't' or forbidden, or "mustn't' or any other word that says you cannot, all you must leave is space for their equipment or the ability to move yours if required, after all, the meter box now belongs to the end user. Opening our meter box and what's in there is obviously the DNO fuse and meter, NO DNO fitted isolator, then straight into the wall behind and above for the CU. Before this though the meter tails go into a wylex fused switch (a large unit that is bigger than it needs to be!) That feeds an onsite holiday cottage, the feed for the cottage comes out the bottom of the switch as expected, and our tails for the house are also in the top of the switch so the cottage is able to be isolated, but not the house. My plan was to get the DNO to fit an isolator, and/or I was going to get the sparky to fit the isolator and then a separate CU with 3x 100A isolators, 1 for the house, 1 for the cottage and one for the PV along with an RCD/RCBO for the PV, all within the same space, dimensions of this would be smaller than the existing switch fitted. However, almost two years ago sparky had to pull the DNO fuse to fit a new CU in the house as we had no response from them at all ref fitting an isolator.
Your energy supplier is responsible for arranging disconnects and installing isolators. The electrician should have asked you to arrange this, as they usually won’t talk to the electrician. The situation is a mess but is due to change mid 2023 - kzhead.info/sun/ddWHgdBwamhre40/bejne.html
Great video efixx , in future I can see house builders still fitting 2 meter boxes , Electric , EV 👍
Makes me smile a bit. My supply comes in at first floor level (over my neighbour's land) - no DNO meter box at all. Damm all space for the DNO's equipment as the builders boxed it in tidily. :-) I had asked the DNO to re-locate the supply to where the new installation consumer unit was going to go. Engineer visited and said that the installation did not meet their (current) specifications and still would not be acceptable in the new location. As "existing" we could carry on using it but he could not authorise a change to a still no-spec location. The meter tails are quite long - perhaps 4m.
A great video. Cleared up some misconceptions in my head.
For new builds maybe the makers of the meter boxes can come up with a design for a larger box with a divider in it to define DNO and consumer.
for new builds it is a planning requirement to have an EV charge point at the first place
When we had to fit a switch-fuse due to a sub-distribution circuit needed as the consumer unit was away from the outside wall meter box we perswaded some of the developers of new houses that listened to put an additional meter box along side. This method is a bit tricky to retrofit due to damp proof and support of the opening.
Are bigger meter boxes with dedicated customer area the answer?
@@efixx I think the problem is more with existing. Maybe a box about A4 size with cavity drip tray and top brickwork support built-in where you cut the hole out and taking the coursework out at the top for the overhang brick lintal.
If a customer doesn't want the hassle of the CU for EV going inside the house, could a second cabinet be fitted to the house, with a IP rate cu, with the Henley fed into this. Would this also allow the work around for the length of the meter tails??
Had a tenant have a very large EV charger manufacturer and installer come to install a charger on the property today.. Firstly they had no idea it was a looped supply, and they the guy said he was going to fit the consumer unit in the meter box. When I told them they were not allowed, I got told Eon had given them permission, thanks to you I quoted ENA response and told them in no uncertain terms that they were not fitting the board in the meter cupboard. There was a 17th edition plastic board split load high integrity, I suggested a 40A mcb I got told they cant really touch consumer units unless its easier to just add a circuit, I offered as a fully qualified spark with my own company to fit a the 40A mcb to supply a consumer unit next to the existing consumer unit. The conversation turned to SPD, the guy onsite phoned his company who said nope they don't fit SPD's, after contacting said company they confirmed they are installing to BS7671 18th edition ammendment 2, I verbatim told them regulation 443.4.1 and told them the response I got from NAPIT and IET that new circuits require an SPD.. They are going to get back to me (We will see), but just goes to show it is still going on... The poor block onsite then could not get hold of his company to find out if the paperwork was in with DNO to allow him to install the charger, I phoned a contact I have at the DNO who confirmed no paperwork had been sent in... Just as well I was there or they would have fitted it on a looped supply without permission, in the meter box and without an SPD. It annoy me that honest sparks are losing work to these cowboys that are not your one man band unqualified cowboys, they are national companies that you would expect should be trusted..
exellent work guys, thanks for clearing that up
Thanks for commenting 👍🏻
Interesting concept. I don't have an meter box, it is housed inside, beside my CU, solar isolation switch & meter etc. etc. and the DNO has zero say on whether I can put additional equipment there or not. It's my under stair cupboard. The guidelines originally quoted also state "do not recommend" which is a different phrase from "you are not permitted." I think the DNO is simply power tripping over the status of the external housing box and know that if they want to just turn up and do something, it can complicate that job and/or result in it being delayed from completion. I believe this is behind their responses to your enquiry. Ways around it? Are there smaller meter boxes, that could effectively allow you to split the original area into two? Average standard is 595mm tall and blow me away, you can buy them 300mm tall. Once again, this is the DNO on a total power trip, because what else can you do?
But it's sometimes necessary to change cutouts in customers' premises and this is still often done live. If a jointer's faced with a situation where cables/equipment make this more dangerous it could mean your garden being dug up to isolate as it wouldn't be fair to lift network fuses and put streets off supply.
@@Tammas Hence "do not recommend", i.e. you can but it's at your own risk of something like this happening?
@@seprishere For sure Simon, but workers do have a right to risk assess when working on live apparatus. And neighbours also have a reasonable expectation that their power isn't disconnected. So, your garden will be dug up - whether you like it or not - under statutory powers of access. The most you can do is not allow restoration of your own supply...and if that's your attitude, hard lines. 🙂
Great video Guys and very informative, thank you.
There's provision within the box for an isolator to be installed, what we need is a manufacturer to design a main switch which incorporates an isolator, OCPD and 25mm tails outlets for two supplies. So you could have one way for the main CU and another protected way for the EV or additional CU such as a garage unit. Also DNOs/suppliers need to be a little more flexible when installing new supplies, how many meters boxes have you seen that look like the kit was just thrown in on a Friday afternoon with no scope for additions such as isolators.
An area crying out for innovation
@@efixx an area efixx could do a(nother?) video on?!
The only kit I permit to be fitted within the meter box is an isolator/switch fuse or Henley blocks located bottom right (where possible) as per the UKPN diagram. This leaves space for 2nd meter or a check meter as required. Anything else has to be somewhere else. My own supply doesn't enter via a meter box so I don't have that issue, although I did get a bit of a grumble when a DNO guy spotted that the meter board had been shaved at some point in the past.
Great to know! Really helpful!
Going back a few years, more than I'd like to mention lol, meter boxes were always reserved for DNO equipment, they even used to supply them FOC, not sure if this is still the case since I've been off my tools for some time now
Many houses from the 60's and 70's have the main consumer unit in the meter box. I don't know of any that have had their electricity cut off because of it. Relocating them in some instances would not be straightforward, unless rewiring the property.
Totally agree.
My house is exactly like this & the meter box backs on to a double skin of engineering block - this could be quite a fun exercise if my new smart meter doesn’t fit. It would probably have to be a rewire to relocate the consumer unit in my case.
I came across this video and was thinking the same because this is how mine is setup. I have no meter box as such. Not outside. The meter is in a cupboard in the hallway next to the fuse and the CU. This is where the EV charger comes in via a trip switch. This is where the Harvi will also be going I expect. That being there's nowhere else for it to go.
Glad somebody has answered this 'grey area'. I've put a small consumer unit in to a meter cabinet twice, both times I warned the customer that it was their responsibility if the DNO was to ask for the CU to be removed as they didn't want the cable run into their house CU. I think I will reject doing this in future, although the next guy they get a quote off will do it and I'll lose business as my quote will be more expensive 🤷
I would not reject the works, but you should record your advice. If you you work in a area where the DNO provide meter cabinet layout recomendations there is more to work with.
So what about switch-fuses and henley block? I have a load of houses with split concentric where the meter installers removed the cover to expose the inner cores. I like the fact we have to maintain and replace lids and we cant touch the board.
When I was on the tools in the 1980s/90s (working for the local electricity “board”) we would regularly replace internal meter boards and external meter boxes/doors as they were the property of that “electricity board” as well as everything in it (except customers tails). There seems to have been a subtle shift of responsibility when the industry split to Distribution Network Operator/Supplier/Meter Operator. Suddenly, the local electricity board’s didn’t necessarily own all the equipment. Now the outside meter boxes have shifted to the responsibility of the building owner but the local DNO still keeping all the rights for access.
Spot on
Privatization, the rotten fruits are showing!
Also after speaking with the local Dno about a poor earth on an tns there answer was we do not maintain that type of system they would check if it could be made pme but if not the electrician would have to correct it as they are not responsible for providing an earth, anybody else been told this ?
@@britannic2000 That sounds deeply suspicious to me. If the system was TN-S at the time of original installation and the DNO has now effectively changed that earthing system (without notification) having not rectified problems with the earthing that's occurred in their network, then that's potentially dangerous. How would anybody ever know unless it was tested? I have heard of DNOs converting supplies from TN-S to TN-C-S because of faults, or maybe because they've made changes to the local distribution network, but unilaterally downgrading a householder's earthing system strikes me as evading responsibilities.
I’m fairly sure that Paul Meenan shared a document on social media showing a breakdown of the meter box and what goes where, the document showed the top right corner as customers space.
Page 11 here 👉 www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/internet/asset/5fef85a5-c01f-4322-bc62-37a4dbf4fd3b/getting+connected+guide.pdf
S o this is the same document we have been working to as well. Dose that mean the UKPN guide is wrong.
It probably predates the move to EV - the DNOs need to give clear guidance on this matter. It’s only going to get worse when heat pumps etc follow on. Hopefully this video will motivate the discussion.
@@efixx The DNO's don't even agree on whether to let sparks disconnect the main cut out to safely work on an installation. Which is why I stated the UKPN isn't wrong it is just their guidelines for their respective areas. Western/ UKPN and S&S have given me completely different answers on the same question over the same type of supply and switch fuses in cabs. Zero consistency from personal experience dealing with the three and that's where in lies the issue, they will tell you at Efixx one thing but on an engineer level they'll give different answers if you call about an installation and submit photos.
@@efixx To be fair, heat pumps are not massive loads, thats the whole point.
Depends who your DNO is Northern Powergrid allow you to install consumers equipment in the meter cupboard but sufficient space needs to be left for the cutout and metering equipment
Thank you useful to know, was going to fit a 3pin power point,
Would the conduit coming from the meter panel not have to be earthed metal? Otherwise it would have to be on an rcd? Does the 3m rule still apply?
The DNO owns the supply cutout intake board and permits only the designated Metering Supply company to attach equipment (if it is a Metered supply). Western Power make this very clear in their downloadable PDF documentation.
The information I have on this (and I work for a DNO) is that whilst the consumer owns the board they can't do anything with it. The Suppliers can obviously fit their meters and associated equipment. The only thing the consumer can have fitted is a 100A DP isolation switch and if needed meter blocks. Would we do anything when we encounter a discrepancy? .... Doubtful, but the question you need to ask yourself is, Do I feel lucky?
I think It would be helpful if a copy of the responses could be made available for us to read in full.
The meter box belongs to the customer here in NI. As an electrician or builder we have to supply them for the house.
The one from ENA, I wouldn't ever read as a hard no, or even a polite no to be perfectly honest. For legal reasons, they can't be "polite" in their answers because politeness would cause confusion amongst most people. No, what it actually means is "We don't recommend it because it could cause damage to the equipment, or if we need to replace the meter down the line and we have to remove your custom equipment, any negative fallback from the fact you added your own equipment falls entirely on your own head". In a nutshell, telling the consumer they're responsible for the costs incurred by any damaged equipment needing to be replaced, or if down the line, a technician has to remove the EV charging port... tough luck for the EV owner. As an alternative, I'd suggest installing a second box, with a conduit running between the two. You can still piggyback off of the first unit, but this allows everything to run within designed parameters and leaves space for the meter company to actually change it out should they need to, without needing to remove anything.
I have had an EV charger fitted, and they installed a consumer unit within the meter box which I had specifically requsted not to do (as I intend to get 3 phase installed in the next few years) as there was spare ways on the house distribution board (other side of the meter box in a cupboard under the stairs) and with it being a relatively new board it's very easy to get hold of matching 40A MCB or RCBO. I got given the argument "if a fault occurs it could knock the whole house out, or the house could knock the charger off," hence why I suggested to put it on it's own RCBO separate from the two RCDs that protect the rest of the house and garage which they said they weren't prepared to do. After this video I've asked them to clarify why they did it the way they did and got pretty much the same answer, so currently waiting on my DNO (NPG) and supplier to comment on the installation, with any luck I'll then be able to get it installed correctly.
NPG state explicitly on their web site that customers equipment CAN be added inside the meter box!
IP rated locking external enclosure (Schneider's Merlin insulated enclosure range comes to mind) is the way to go, in my opinion. It can be a bit unsightly, but it's such a non-invasive installation for the customer when you've got an external meter box, and it saves *so much* time, energy, and money, it's a bit of a no-brainer for somebody who wants an EV charger install without completely breaking the bank.
exactly.
I don't agree. Enclosures IP rated against the ingress of water tend to be completely sealed, and the concern of one DNO is over heating by the inclusion of additional component. A metal enclosure will help in respect of this. Personally I think the risk of overheating is very low, but if you want to keep the DNO happy and remove the "overheating" excuse, then you need an enclosure with ventilation holes and that by their very nature means the enclosure is not going to get a very high IP-X rating (where : 1 ≤ X ≤ 9)
@@deang5622 As it's outside the meter box is has precisely zero to do with the DNO. I would expect any external box to meet whatever the relevant regulations will be for external electrical installations and and, in reality, for an EV charger it's not going to be much more than over-current protection and, maybe, an RCD of the appropriate type. It's going to dissipate about 1 watt.
@@TheEulerID Don't confuse environment ratings with electrical protection mechanisms. We are not even talking about electrical protection mechanisms, the original post and my response is about environmental protection. If you re-read my post, the key subject I was writing on was IP protections and I can assure you this applies to any enclosure carrying electrical apparatus and it is nothing to do with the DNO. So your remark about "has precisely zero do with the DNO" demonstrates you have not understand what I was talking about. 4/10 - must try harder.
My local council are the ones who renewed my consumer unit when they rewired the house...and the CU is in the meter cupboard. Likewise, when the DNO was out to unloop my supply, they replaced everything up to the meter, and never uttered a peep. 🤷♂️
I got around the problem by installing an empty meter box next to the meter box with the bno's equipment in. So we now have 3 external boxes :- gas,electricity meter box with the main cut out in and the third box with is empty, ready for any garden feed termination solar equipment and ev fuse board.
Interesting video. As a consumer and given this video was a year ago - my new solar PV has done exactly this, and i suspect thousands more on a weekly basis. The Henley block ( which i think is allowed from reading) and a small consumer unit for the Inverters i have in the loft. There was space in the CU for 2 extra circuits however i can see that would have been a complete PITA to wire back to that (plus zero room for CT clamps) and the job was fixed price under the "solar together" scheme that many councils promote. Would be interesting who is liable to pay for movement if it ever came to that ? Also this maybe just the terms that the trade uses but "not recommended" is very different to "forbidden", too ambiguous imho, but then that may just be the terminology in the trade.
Great info thanks 🙏
Same for my Solar PV system installed in 2015 - as well as the Henley block they added the solar PV meter, and a couple of current transformer based monitors (a measuring system + a wireless feed to the solar PV diverter in the airing cupboard). When the mains supply meter was swapped for a smart meter approx. 18 months ago no concerns were expressed about this use of the meter cabinet.
Personally I think best option would be to install another meter enclosure box beside the current one and use it to mount your equipment needed for EVSE equipment. Here in northern ireland most new builds I'm coming across have the CU on the 1st floor in the hot press in middle of the house, not at all practical to get an additional cable to.
What is a _hot press?_
@@johnburns4017 erm, the small cupboard like space your hot water tank would have usually resided in, along with all your towels and bed linen?
An airing cupboard
Press is an Irish name for a cupboard used north and south. Hot press is what English call airing cupboard.
Had a 3 phase supply installed, bought a kiosk. The dno said, "only our stuff on the backboard and 3 mtr tails." So I put a piece of board on the side using the handy mounting points provided. Fitted a 100A D curve MCB in a 4-way box and then a few Henleys. I then put the armour for the house, garage and a separate board into the Henleys. 35mm cable, because the box is some way off and 25mm was only 96A so I had to mobe into the 40mm gland territory, earthing nuts for that are expensive. It obscured just as much of the board as if it were mounted on it, but they were happy, which is unusual.
Have the regulations now changed to allow access to meter box? We had our charger installed only yesterday. I made space around the consumer unit for easy access and the installer all the extra parts in the meter cabinet inside our house instead. We went with a big company who use specialist EV charger installers to complete the install. I questioned this at the end and the installer showed me dozens of photos of installs where this is the norm. He then showed me pictures of people with new houses where they installed a separate consumer unit next to the charger which I thought looked awful. At least we have a tidy installation but I'm unsure now if this is legal? Surely they have to keep to the regulations in 2023?
Could you do the following... Henley block in meter cabinet, 10mm tails in plastic conduit to an IP rated 2 way enclosure housing a DP RCBO outside next to the meter cabinet?
Gents would you do a vid on the extinguishing in built within the consumer unit I work for a council managing social housing , ideally a review from your team would be exceptional. We have 5000 new builds coming up and would like to introduce these if they are worth installing , I like the idea but it's difficult convincing senior members as their argument is with correct fire stopping sealent it's not necessary Cheers
What I have understand, their answer means, YES you can use the meter box for EV, PV equipment and other things, BUT if we need the space, we could require you to remove the items. Because meter boxes have different sizes, if they installed a huuge meter box with lots of space, of course you could use that space, then theres no problem with heat either. Another sort of equipment that is common to put in meter boxes are meter reading equipment. Usually part of home automation, people install small LED detectors on their meters with doble-sided tape, that will wirelessly send the meter value into the house. Same would apply if meter box is too small, they could require you to replace it with a bigger one if they are going to install a bigger meter that doesn't fit, or if you make changes in electricity supply agreement, for example, a 3-phase supply instead of 1-phase supply, and the meter box is to small to house a 3-phase meter + 3-phase cutout. So I take the answer as the priority seat on buses. You can sit there, but a disabled person have priority, and you have to move or stand up if such a person wants to use the seat.
Can you point to any supply contracts that explicitly specify that nothing else can go in the box? Unless it's there explicitly it's hard to see how they can deny a supply without being in breach of their contract.
Here’s the response from one of the DNO’s - “ultimately NIE Networks position is where the minimum dimensions within an outdoor meter box are not reserved for our equipment, NIE Network may, and increasingly likely to disconnect the customer and issue a defect notice citing the Standard Connection T&C’s”
So what are the minimum dimensions. ?
@@brendon-paul in the specification when you request a supply.
@@efixx I guess replacing the board in a Revo box with a smaller switch fuse would not be allowed.
It's embossed in some of the meter box doors, " This space is reserved for Electricity Boards equipment only".
Is there an ev installer you can recommend in North Staffordshire? In my case I would need a mini consumer unit fitting behind the meter box (preferably higher up, close to ceiling if possible). Would then need a long cable 6 to 8 meters through the alleyway and then probably buried to the end of the back garden with charge point fitted to a pedestal if it can't be fitted to a shed or fence. Probably a zappi as longer term I'm fitting solar.
Literally completed one this morning, where the existing meter box was flush on the outside wall, with the existing consumer unit back to back in the customer's lounge. We fitted a 2nd meter box with the EV consumer unit and tails to the adjacent existing box. As it happened, the existing backboard was rotten, so we had to call out the DNO to replace it. However, it has always been the case that no other equipment can be fitted in their space. The boxes are side by side, at the rear of the property and the proposal was agreed with the customer first. Looks fine.
Perfect job
Its not their space, the box is the property of the building owner not the DNO or meter company.
Thanks for the video. Does anyone know if this has actually been a problem for any homeowner? I.e. being asked to remove etc
Could create a problem for consumer tails in an external meter box >2-3 meters supplying a db within the dwelling
My thoughts exactly.
FANTASTIC video guys thanks for the research you have put into this, it’s great to finally have some clarity and clear direction for all!
So you can stop putting consumer units in meter boxes now 👍🏻… saw you installing one in one of your videos… once one person puts it online everyone thinks it ok to do so… will you be going back to that install…? will you be going back to the EV charger(s) you left without RCD protection….
Let’s see - We think this will rumble on for a while.
@@efixx oooo spicey
@@efixx which video are you referring to?
*eats popcorn*🍿
The perfect solution is a second enclosure built in next to the supply cabinet. this would accommodate all anciiliary equipment, ie. Solar monitoring, EV switchgear etc.
Good idea. The cost of one of those external box’s is cheep so it’s a no brainier to do that if the consumer box is to far away.
I have a consumer unit in my meter box that feeds my outbuildings, having heard this might by an issue/not allowed, I contacted my DNO (UK Power networks) by Email & asked the question. They replied & said it was fine...
yup I spoke directly with the electricians who fitted my consumer unit for the garage in the box and the DNO who were onsite, both agreed it was perfectly ok. However the DNO said that in future if they wished to installed a new bigger type of supply box and fuse to the house it was the owners responsibility to ensure it fitted within the box to their specifications. If your own equipment was in the way and prevented the install then you would have to pay for an electrician to remove your own equipment. I think this makes more sense than simply saying 'no'
The guys who installed mine put the monitoring CT's on the outgoing tails to the consumer unit and introduced a Henley Block with an RCD mounted in an IP rated enclosure external to the meter box. This then fed out to my charger surface clipped - very neatly actually. This is down the side of the house behind locked gates and the charger cable passes through the hinge gap to charge my car. Doesn't look too bad tbf. As its down the side of my house behind locked gates this should reduce the chance of any malicious acts (switching off) - more probable some scoundrel were to park on my drive and steal some electricity!!. I think if we are getting into the realms of a new db then the EV installer would no doubt scope this as an 'over and above' and charge accordingly.
Brilliant subject this video has been needed for quite some time.
What about if the cut out & meter are not in a meter box but mounted on a internal wall & then are boxed in?
I always fit 100A service blocks and then an IP56 CU external to the meter box
Wise man 👨
Just being Devil’s advocate - isn’t that still adding something into meter the box? I have as you describe - a Henley block inside feeding into an exterior CU. However, strictly I am not sure it’s anymore compliant.
@@paulharrison2325 Good point but as long as they can fit their smart meters inside easy enough I doubt any complaint will come of it. Henleys don't take up much space where as a fused isolator etc can be quite big
@@asp217 I agree - as I say, just being awkward in making that point. It seems like a sensible compromise. If we are really moving to an EV future then various concessions will need to be found.
So if your meter tails are longer than 3m your not allowed to put the fused switch in the meter box?
Interestingly, here in Ireland, where the electrical practices and standards pretty much follow the UK's, an allowance has been made specifically for the case of EV charging points, to allow a consumer unit to be fitted inside the meter box.
Thanks - we've read about the recent changes. Is it true that properties will typically have a main cutout installed for the whole installation.
@@efixx I have a main cut-out fuse on the feed into the meter, but there isn't any kind of circuit-breaker, RCD, etc., in the meter box.
See page #6: safeelectric.ie/contractors/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/03/MarchNewsletterSafeElecFinal-1.pdf
I'm hoping to do exactly this but my electrician wants to install a separate surface mounted box just beside the meter box which will be ugly as heck. do you know is there any published confirmation/guidance from ESB about fitting a consumer unit inside the meter box? Thanks
@@timotei511 It seems they changed their minds about that... I ended with a separate box for the charger c/b indoors, next to the regular fuse box, and the 32A cable routed through the wall and out to the wallbox. Its high up on the wall in the utility room, so it doesn't bother me none. And yeah, there is a big-assed yellow/red cut-out installed next to the wallbox, outside, too.
What about a mantel unit inside the dwelling. Comes with a built in consumer unit. Is it allowed to Replace with an rcbo unit?
Here in South Africa we have a great system. The meter box will normally sit on the edge of the property line. Because most houses are walled and fenced off from the outside world. So the muncipal services will still have access to the box for upgrades. And everything behind the box ie past the wall is your resposibility. They lock it and the supply is passed to a seperate box on the exterior of the house. Which is then passed to the consumer unit. So the problem doesnt exist here
So I’m trying to get an EV point installed. The installer has suggested exactly what you’d talking about switchgear in the meter cabinet. My question is can the installer split the tails and fit a double pole isolator for a 6mm Dist cable to go to a garage CU for the EV point. Similar to the isolator that was fitted by the DNO. I am waiting on a reply from the DNO as well
Since this year we are allowed to install the supplies in the meter cabinet here in Ireland. It's a no brainier! You park the car right next to the meter box. The electricity supplier wants to sell off peak due to wind turbines making too much power at night. There are rules though, isolation labels on main CCU, DC RCDs, and external double pole isolator adjacent to charger (it's defined as fixed equipment just like and oven or 3Kw+ appliance)
Great info thanks - and rules which help level the playing field - Thanks Tony
Good video. It really makes me question why I'm a spark with all of this nonsense. As other have mentioned-if the customer wants their consumer unit relocating >3m away from the meter where is the fused isolator meant to be sited? My gas supplier has installed additional equipment in my electric meter box to transmit my gas meter readings-is this allowed ?
Re your comment on becoming a spark I would think twice if starting again, but saying that ,house is only a tiny part of being in electrical industry.
Yes. These SMETS 2 meter upgrades and retrofits are modifications to what is still considered DNO equipment, even if only leased, and therefore come under the ownership of your utility provider on their behalf.
I'll also add-its ok fitting an IP rated enclosure on the outside wall but you've still got to enter the meter box and install Henley blocks therefore adding additional items taking up space?
@@jamiebourne8047 whatever you do someone is going to question it ,then for years I had no seals on my meter numerous meter readers came and went no comment was made and being a sparky this is normally a hanging offence!
Interesting I've just bought a brand new house, just built. Which an identical boards and cabinet to the one you showed. Mine has a cut out fitted within the box and a small fusebox feeding the power to the garage. I've checked with the electrician's on site who stated that although not recommended you can do this perfectly legally. But if the dno wanted to add extra equipment themselves then you the customer would be responsible for making room in the cabinet ie removing your extra equipment to make room for their new stuff. I suspect they are stating their wishes rather than an actual regulation 'must not' was not used
You’ve used one of my pictures in there. It was for 2 x AC units not an EVCP but obviously that doesn’t make a difference. I use the smallest 2 way DB available for EV chargers and usually it fits in nicely. Putting an IP rated box on the outside and Henley blocks on the inside doesn’t make much difference as far as I can see.
What if the meter board is rotten and needs replacing, or if the supplier needs to install a check meter? You have prevented both.
Many houses will soon have a nice free space to house things in. The old gas meter box! I can't take credit sadly. Next door to my parents have had a heat pump and EV charger installed and they have used the box where the old gas meter was. The tails are hidden in the cavity as is the cable to the EV charger. The old conduit for the gas pipe hides the cabling for the heat pump down to near ground level and then off round the back of the house to the heat pump main unit.
Could you add a second box next to the original, and use that to house a consumer unit ?
Yes
Thanks for this video. I am about to have an EV charger installed, and it is only today that I realized the requirement to run a cable to the internal consumer unit. I did not know this is required and thought that everything is connected to the external meter box. The DNO says the meter box is owned by the customer, and that for safety reasons the charger should be connected to the consumer box, but is it actually illegal to house everything in the meter box? If it is not illegal, what's stopping someone doing it?
Guess that means no fused isolators for submains can be installed in the meter box then too?
Uk power networks have a diagram showing you can fit a switch fuse. PAGE 11 www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/internet/asset/5fef85a5-c01f-4322-bc62-37a4dbf4fd3b/getting+connected+guide.pdf
Need space for check meter to be installed if customer queries meter . Trust me I used to work for EEB.
What about replacing an original rewireable fuse c.u. that was installed in the meter box by the house builder 1980s style.?
At my home, the Electrition put 2 Henley blocks in between the meter and the tails to the consumer unit, and connected them to a separate RCD and added an earthing block. He then ran the wires out of the meter box to the EV charger.
I am no spark, but this does sounds a little crazy to me. Please tell me what you think. So, you can't fix another smaller additional C.U. unit inside the meter box to supply your EV wall box, because the DNO does not want you to use "Their" space within YOUR box ?. But, in the case of our house, built in 1982 our electric metering device & C.U. etc is mounted on a chipboard backer board, it was supplied and installed on the internal wall of our integral garage, by the DNO ( Manweb ) themselves way back in 1982. Then this would be just fine, because it has no "box" surrounding the equipment then ?. Interesting though, that when my EV installer fitted my wall box, he needed to split the tails ( Henley blocks ) and run new tails, to a new small stand alone small C.U. unit. He installed the new C.U. on the wall NEXT to the original backer board and said he did not want to infringe on what COULD be become contentious issue with regards to the DNO's regs. Did he already know something then ?????.
Before the meter box came along most serious sparks would never mount any equipment on the “meter board” mounted in the garage or under the stairs.
@@efixx Maybe he was following along this path then !. The approx 2ft meter backing board, only the C.U. / the now "Smart Meter" the DNO main fuse head and cartridge and a addition 100Amp double pole isolation switch, that was installed at the time of the upgrade and the Henley blocks. The smaller stand alone C.U. that powers the wall box, sits to the side of the backer board and is secured directly to the internal wall of the garage. I do agree with others, who have said :- "If you ask the question, then the answer is very likely going to be a clear - NO".
The meter box does not belong to the DNO. There is equipment in there that is the responsibility of the DNO, the electricity supply company and often the consumer. There is, for example, an isolation switch (on the line) and henley block (on the neutral) after the meter in my box and I'm pretty sure they are both my responsibility. However, I would never put a CU into it. As for putting a small CU for an EV next to the meter box with a bit of conduit, then I really don't see the aesthetic issue being a problem. You have to have the charger and the conduit or clipped SWA anyway, so what real difference does one small extra external box with a T leg in the conduit make? It's not as if the cabinets are exactly discrete either. In my case, I have a detached garage, and is/when I have a charger installed, then I would favour a small external CU below the meter cabinet connected via a buried SWA cable and keep it entirely separate to the garage electrics, which are supplied from the house. I have some work to do in that part of the garden, so when I do that I might well do the excavation for a cable and have an electrician install a charger on the side of the garage.
For a service upgrade 1-phase to 3-phase, who installs the new meter box? Since you are saying I own the box, am I allowed to do this ? or is it my supplier (bulb/edf/etc)? Thanks!
It’s called the METER box for a reason.. there should be a cut out box only as well. That conduit job looks proper.. keeping in mind that most of the times is surface installations might as well make it look presentable
What about Henley boxes or fused switches if the tails are beyond the limit?
Your spose to fit another meter box next to it and use that for your switch fuse
Hi guys I'm new to your channel, great videos! To save going near my meter box I have a 50A rcd supply going to my garage already can that be used or does it have to be connected to the tails back at the house db? Thanks for any advise you can give.
We would recommend !!!
in my view the energy network were only providing a safety view with no legal substance. Whilst the various network and supply authorities own the equipment, they do not own the space. However, they can create conditions of supply ie the provision of a suitable space to safely house their equipment, but does not include the use of the surrounding space, except to the extent it does not compromise their equipment. In my view a space safely linked to the outside ambient temperature, unless affected by a direct heat source, is generally a preferred.
correct no legal substance at all. The dno installers told me exactly the same when I asked them. they said you can install anything you want in the box. But at some future point if the DNO needed to change the equipment in the box and their wasnt enough room left you would have to make room for them. So if they needed to install a new meter which was bigger than the old one then it wasnt their fault if they didnt have enough room. and if you needed it doing urgently they were quite within their right to disconnect their equipment. But as the DNO installer said its your box not theirs.
Add a second flush cabinet a short distance away could be an option I agree with another comment about the meter boxes need updates probably a two door design
Hi? Could you please explain why older meter boxes have the consumer unit built in to it? Surely its the same and its always been allowed?
Not in the UK 🇬🇧
@@efixx I think the OP is confusing a mantel unit with a meterbox in this situation.where a metal cabinet was installed with a skeleton board at the top
@@Gazzerdaman Nope there's a fair few with consumer units inside them - circa 1960-1975. Some internal to the building some external. See them all over the South East of England. Edit: To clarify many of those skeleton consumer units were put in by the same company that were putting in the DNO equipment at the time.
Thats right lots of them still about and they even offer an up to date skeleton board to be installed inside the meter box.
That's nice to know 👍👍👍
Very helpful video guys, but it overlooks an important point. Firstly a comment on what you've said in the video. "All the DNOs have said no". But their trade association says it's "not recommended". And this only came some time after after you had asked the question, suggesting it was something they had to think hard about before replying. And they would say that wouldn't they? Otherwise it would have given free licence for people to do whatever they want inside the meter cupboard. You also referred to the additional heat that can be generated within the meter box. A fair point, but the box is located outside and wouldn't the same heat be generated within a CU if the EV charger was connected there? My main concern is the constant high current (32A) draw from a single source for maybe 7 hours. If we had an electric shower, that would no doubt be off its own fuse in the CU. But we don't shower for 7 hours. Similarly an induction hob might have a high draw if all elements were on at the same time. But they wouldn't be on for 7 hours. And all this would be going on inside the property. Surely it's better to take this risk outside? Are current CU's really designed to be used in this way? The extra space that may be needed for additional equipment seems to allow DNOs to do what they like. Fair enough, but what extra equipment do they think they will need? A really large Smart meter? If anything they're getting smaller. I'm not suggesting a free for all. But I cannot see why a Henley block and small dedicated CU for the charger cannot be fitted inside most cupboards. Better to have this regulated by good practice guidance than expose consumers to additional risks. The installations could also be subject to periodic or random inspections if this is a concern.
In my expereince: UKPN - You can on a case by case basis. Western - No you can't, but will be reviewed on a case by case basis. Scottish & Southern - No you can't, any isolator you have in place already we'll also remove when fitting or upgrading a meter. (Switch fuses they haven't yet - worries of compromising safety). Now if you get their engineers in the field regardless of company they're fine with it as long as they've got room to work on the head or meter. Thing to remember is the metering engineer can't remove or interfere with the customers installation as it's out of their remit, they can and have tried in the past to not fit a new meter but ultimately get over ruled by the managers anyway as the repercussion of leaving people without power is not worth it in their view. (IF the installation is obviously unsafe it's a different matter). The thing to remember; New builds often have an American HOA style board now that governs what can be put on the outside of buildings which excludes the use of IP consumer units, white flue terminals and alike, limiting options. The DNO can complain and refuse service but it can't if their request to remove said items compromises the safety of the installation (ESR 1988/ ESQCR 2002) - they can however if the building is under 10 years old take it up with the developer (witnessed this once, it was chaos but the block also had issues with C0 due to aluminium flue leaks so the developer had no choice). Outside of 10 years becomes a horrid grey area where negotiating with the DNO is the only way forward. The biggest issue going forward into an EV net zero world will be Vehicle to Grid as current single phase houses converting to three phase will need the space for the new DNO head and metering equipment. Though generally on a case by case basis most DNO's do not have issue with it but that doesn't mean ask forgiveness over seeking permission as it's normally far better to inform them of the circumstances before proceeding, you may just get the answer you need or want and the paperwork to avoid a later headache.
Very helpful.
From what I can see (abd when speaking to UKPN), there is no issue in installing a small CU in the meter cabinet. They "recommend" you shouldn't, but its not a "you must not" it's the property owners space that has been allocated for use by the DNO and surply company. If when the time comes that the DNO/surply company wants to change equipment, if there is not enough space, its down to the owner to have space made.
exactly what the DNO said on my brand new house. This video is completely misleading
Some insights into this subject from a guy who has fitted the original DNO equipment and replaced the DNO equipment more times than I have hot dinners. The boxes where originally installed so that meter readers did not have to enter the house, flats could be read all from one outside place and that sort of idea. The slim ones especially have little room and on occasion have been too small for the meter and timeclock t be fitted, with older tariffs. Historically the DNO would replace the doors as access to stocks of doors by a consumer was difficult. A few years after privatisation someone had a thought, lets see how much this is costing us? In 1 year, around 2005 ish it cost the DNO I worked for almost 2 million, to add fuel to the fire the reason the door needed changing 90% of the time it was the consumer not shutting the door correctly when using a key meter, we returned to the same properties time and again and the same areas time and again. So they don't replace them anymore the customer has too. Space is everything here as the DNO cut out may require changing at some point and this will be done Live, no point of isolation and the nearest fuse is probably 500a and 100 meters away, so to remove that would mean dozens if not more customers off to make it dead. The other option is to dig a hole, cut the cable, again live, then joint it back together and fill in the hole. So a 20min job is now 4hrs and still one man has to work live, and a potential future fault is introduced. So don't put equipment close to meters or cutout's, its dangerous to us DNO guys and costly to the homeowner. Regarding what's inside or could be inside, in a common sense, real world kind of way, I would never complain about any tails running through the box if out of the way, also a couple of connector blocks to split the tails, one for CU and one for charger. I can't believe anyone else would either, unofficially that is (covering my butt). One DP isolator on the CU tails is also fine. Always remember the guy is working live and needs room to not kill himself so they do a risk assessment, a very strict one, if they can't reasonably get their hands in with thick gloves on then its a no go... It makes a very big mess of your face and the box if you get it wrong (I can vouch for that). I hope this sheds some light on why the DNO's say NO quite so categorically. Cheers
take it that this only applies to external meter boxes, what if you have an older style internal meter box with a skeleton board inside it ?
Good luck fitting anything additional in there, lol
@@beardedsparks2825 exactly but the whole point of the video is that it's supposed to be for DNO and supply authority stuff yet there's a skeleton board in the internal ones so wouldn't that be the same problem ?
Could a solution be to install a larger 3 phase meter cabinet? These enclosures have an internal area around 70% larger than the standard cabinet designed for a single-phase supply, both wider and taller to accommodate a larger three phase cut out and three phase meter or three single phase meters, so on a single phase supply could easily accommodate a small consumer unit for an EV charger and an isolator while still leaving more room free for the DNO and metering equipment than would be available with a standard size enclosure with no additional equipment fitted. There would be fewer potential issues around heat dissipation owing to the larger internal volume of the bigger cabinet and the DNO would be given more than adequate space for their equipment. But the question is, would the DNO agree to this?
How do builders replace a damaged incoming meter box on external walls? Does the power supply need to be disconnected to fit a completely new box?
How about a combined external CU and charger?
My consumer unit in the meter box is about half the size of the one your showing
So no CT and Harvi inside the box? I can appreciate an additional consumer unit but a CT?
I have a pulsar on order from smart home chargers and they are due to install it in a few weeks. My consumer unit is in my dining room and during the online survey they said not to worry as the new consumer unit can be placed in the meter box. Will they be liable for it if the installation is wrong and goes against the DNOs recommendations?
Suggest you ask your installer for confirmation- do you have a smart meter already installed.
@@efixx yes, it's a new build, not sure if it's the gen 2 one or not. So may need to be replaced in the near future as I'm changing over to Octopus and not sure if they can read my current British gas smart meter. The house is 18 months old.
Brilliant research. I let the metering company and dno put their equipment in my wall mounted garden tools store. I have never heard of a meter box.... I rest my case your honour 🤣 Very informative video as always!
Thanks Mark needed quite a bit of phone work to extract the answers on this one. Down the road a few customers may end up paying the price of a “standard EV” install *Gordon
@@efixx yes if meter installers start rejecting jobs because of this will def cause customers issues. Would be interesting to see any dno deny someone a right to electricity because of it! I would guess they would be in breach of more rules/laws than the customer with equipment were it shouldn't be lol. We have had to sort some really bad EV installs this last year. Incorrect rcds, cable types/size and worse even a missing CPC!
Mr Allison.😯 If anyone would know, I'd have thought it would be you 😉. After all you are... Mark (by the book) Allison. That aside... looks like the world of the KZheadr/Instagram Sparky posting all their EV installs is coming back to bite them on the @ss. Wonder how many will put things right at their expense once their customers get wise to this oversight eh?
@@Sparks1Plumbers0 probably not many tbh. The position of the dno and metering companies is long established. But never enforced. I doubt it will be an issue until they need the "space". I have seen a document that includes the top right section of a meter cabinet for customer/contractor equipment. I think UK power networks. We dont use the space as its not ideal for customer use in a meter cabinet anyway. Always back to main CU, no exceptions. But I doubt very much anyone will need or want to return to jobs completed.
If the box isn't owned by the Dno then there isn't any problem in any additional electronic or electrical devices to be installed with in the enclosure. No PV installation has ever been pulled on this issue but yet car charging has?
Slightly off subject but I've seen people keeping paint brush cleaners in the meter box.
Interesting, Podpoint installed mine; they fitted two Henley blocks and an EV isolator inside the DNO Meter Box so as a consumer / customer, safe to assume someone like Podpoint knows what they are doing so mine stays as it is.