Minneapolis Steam Engine Crankshaft Troubleshooting - Horizontal Boring Mill Setup and Indicating
My local threshing show was donated a 25 HP Minneapolis steam traction engine last year. The engine and boiler are in good shape, but we discovered a problem. The connecting rod was traveling at an angular motion. Something I have seen before, but not this bad.
Supposedly this engine suffered a crankpin failure and was repaired. What we assumed would be the crank pin being out of alignment with the crankshaft, was not the case. As bits and pieces of the story of the failure are coming in, we are finding there was a significant failure and attempted repair, then eviction of this engine.
A total cover up job that is resulting in way more work than we expected.
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Even though there was no machining, I found this video useful. Never underestimate the value of careful, methodical diagnostics.
Its amazing how many times I have heard machinest say, "clean your stuff before bringing it to a machine shop". Some of the other channels have shown some really dirty, greasy parts dropped off for work. Nobody cares anymore. Also shout out to Josh for apologizing to the first shops repair, and showing when he is wrong on video. You have my respect Mr Topper, I have always liked your channel.
Thank you. While they did this part right, we did find a major screw up that was the actual cause of the problem. Unfortunately the failure of this engine is not being talked about and seems to be a big cover-up job. We are still investigating.
I+ It's not really a new problem. I remember car parts coming into the shop for work, covered with grease and mud in the late 1950s.
@@TopperMachineLLClook forward to watching your diagnosis.
Counting Crows
I am an electronics guy and I find the troubleshooting at least as interesting the repair. This video cements your reputation as a first class machinist because you went to the trouble of finding the root cause of the problem and saved time and a precious historical artifact. This is the kind of content that keeps me coming back to your channel. Edited
Even without machining, you demonstrated the process of discovery and kept your mind open during your testing. I know you thought you knew the problem but later changed your mind due to evidence presented. Great work Josh, this shows wisdom and experience. You also saved your customer a lot of money by not machining something that was within spec just because everyone believed it wasn't. Thank you for another informative video.
As common as this problem is, we were all shocked by it being right.
Knowing what problem to solve is the most important part of repairing something, so even though you were not making chips, you were showing what a quality machine shop needs to do to solve a problem. I might have learned more from this video than in some of the machining videos, so to me, it was well worth watching. And I’m loving that coax indicator, I might need to add that to my want list.
Thanks, and I'm glad you learned from this. The coaxial indicator is an awesome tool.
It takes a man of integrity to admit he was wrong. Integrity is in short supply these days. Looking forward to the upcoming videos with this engine.
A phrase I have heard lots of times is "Trust but verify". That applies here. You questioned what your instruments said and verified the measurements. Then made your conclusion of what to do based on verified data. Impressive. That lesson is as important or maybe more so than seeing actual machining. Take a problem to a surgeon, the solution is surgery. Take a problem to a machinist, the solution is machining. It is only the good surgeon or machinist that known when a different solution is needed.
I think Ronald Reagan said that.
Your the Sherlock Holmes of machining. Talk about narrowing down the clues to find the culprit. Great video.
Thanks my dear Watson. Lol.
Wow! This was like a detective novel. I was really interested and learned a lot by watching the setup and indicating. I also remembered words of my grandpa, "Don't believe anything that anyone tells you. If your haven't verified it yourself, just admit you don't know." Good for you recognizing that what you had been told was not accurate. You are highly appreciated, Josh. Thanks for a really great and informative video.
We are finding this whole engine was a big cover-up job. So many things not done correctly and nobody knows anything about what actually happened.
@@TopperMachineLLC Yep, it is called selective amnesia.
Verification of fact is very important , I am a industrial sparks ( but no longer in work at 77 I don't need it ) but I digress in electrical work you test your tester on a know good , test the job to see if its alive , then retest your tester . the voltages I used to work work with when someone else said it was dead the normal response would be get hold of it your self or if it was an underground cable give them a hack saw and say " cut it for me"
Great video Josh. This is why your channel is growing because you are not cherry picking only "good" scenarios. It is refreshing to see content when things go in different directions.
Not every job goes as planned. I run my business honestly..
Some people would have "found" a problem to run a tool over it. You have good ethics.
Some time back, a friend of mine took his car in to get the steering pump replaced. Before he took it in, he de-greased the entire engine, engine bay and steering pump. He said the mechanic was really impressed that he'd got everything nice and clean and ready for the job to be done. That probably indicates that most people don't clean anything that needs repairing.
Most people wouldn't even think of cleaning an engine before taking it in to have work done. People think well that's the shop's problem. Thinking like that only takes more money from your wallet !
Please don't apologize! You know that setups and checking take longer than the machining, so why not show it? That was a good job done well, you've determined where the real problem is.
You’ve gotta show us the entire process. Very interesting. You’ve gotta show us the process getting the machine back, the con rod etc. back to specs. This video is very, very interesting.
Unfortunately I won't be involved in the repour. I have too much on my plate right now and one guy at the club is impatient. By my estimation, I will be redoing his work this summer.
@@TopperMachineLLC Impatient and Machine Work do not even belong together in the same sentence.
I know people like to see chips being thrown (me too), but successful machining of parts like this, big weldments and so on is all down to understanding what the part is, what features are true and in line with other features, what machining stock there is, and then figuring out how to set it up. So this investigation video was awesome for me. Looking forward to more on this - the plot thickens, as they say. I do like those coax indicators. They are such a fun piece of instrumentation.
Setup is most of the job on the HBM. I was actually disappointed I didn't get to machine this.
Don’t apologize for figuring out what is wrong, on to the fix
This is definitely a cool video. The investigative process was awesome. Very strange that that shaft perfect.😊 every turn you took I thought we was going to find the problem😮 what is surprise at the end. It’s also pretty cool that you get to show this video to the customer. I’m sure there.🤯😊
@Josh, you are a legend for opening your shop and making the time to show us the magic
Metrology and diagnosis are at least as important as making chips. You did a great job explaining the problem, put forth a possible explanation, demonstrated how to set up the part and machine to confirm what you thought was going on, and changed your approach when observations didn't match your expectations. There's a value in seeing all that and remembering your goal is to solve a problem, not just to make chips. Being able to tell that you're solving the right problem is essential.
Sometimes a problem can be hard to work through. Thanks for the video keep on keeping on.
Brilliant watching the setup and process of elimination. Don't need to see machining every video Josh, enjoyed this...
This was educational. Good stuff. Better than watching someone do six passes over the same shaft making it smaller and then do 3 more the same way. Looking forward to future analysis and problem solving on this one. Thanks, Josh.
Morning Josh, Wow, what an interesting conundrum. You did everything you could think of to verify and recheck and the only conclusion to reach was the alignment of the crank to the block itself. Am very much looking forward to seeing the upcoming chapters in this project. Am sure we will be talking re the other stuff we have going on. Very very well done in explaining this, along with excellent camera work n audio. Keep up the GREAT work. Don
Thanks Don. I'll send those pictures tomorrow.
I thought I was the only one lol. Thank you for bring up the customers not cleaning the parts before bringing them in for work, it's super aggravating to have to spend 20-30 mins or more depending on size, cleaning up a parts before I can start to work on them. One of our customers is our local waste water treatment plant and they were notorious for bringing in disgustingly dirty impellers, shafts, and flanges etc. in for repairs. I got so fed up with having to get all dressed up in a Tyvek suit and full face mask, so I could spend hour plus with bleach and a power washer outside in Western New York winters, bc that's always when they seem to have breakdown, before I could even take measurements that we flat out told them if they don't clean the parts before bringing them we won't accept them. Thankfully they were understanding about it and haven't brought in a a turd and toilet paper encrusted part since. Great video as always Josh, thank you for uploading! 👍👍
Josh, you sir are a true master. Thank you for the videos. God bless.
Nice one Josh. Love watching that horizontal boring machine of yours in use. Cheers, Aaron.
Hi, had to do this , by hand, on the Forecastle of a 33,000 ton tanker on the way across the Atlantic.
Fair winds, following seas.
@@tetedur377 hi, some idiot sailor tried to stop the Anchor when in free fall and broke the Crankpin away from the Crank also slightly bending the shaft, all good fun. Got a good soaking not a following sea⛵ haha.
What you showed was never take another persons reading of whats wrong. Always do your own checks to prove what every one thought was wrong is in fact wrong. You showed us how to set up and test a product to see if you can machine a problem and stay in tolerances. What you found lead to further investigations and found the real problem.
I doesn't take much of a mistake to cause a problem in these old engines. A slow and steady hand qualifying the work is always needed.
My dad was a machinist and as a young boy I spent many many hours, sitting on a stool at the tail-stock end of his lathe as he built engines and many other things. Watching your videos bring back a world of memories. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you for sharing, I'm glad you enjoy. Thanks for watching.
It was very interesting watching how you set this up and did all the measurments
Years ago I poured a big end bearing for a giant horizontal diesel engine and the owner sent it away for boring out to fit the pin. (I had to pour it away from the machine due to other issues, so made the bore under size for final maching). The bore was cut out of square with the axis of the pin and assembled without me knowing. When I was called out to check why the bearing was running VERY hot I used a simple square to check the axis to find it hopelessly out of true. Clearly the machinist did not check their own work nor did they put it right. Last I heard the engine was scrapped. These old engines might be big and simple but bearings need to run true to work. Looking forward to part 2
Hay Josh thanks for showing us how the job should have been done the first time big Cheers all ways the teacher thank you
If the disc is running out laterally by 14 thou, then the crankpin will also. If the crankpin has less than 14 thou side clearence then when crank turns it will bind up the bearing on the sides. If the conrod is mounted to crankshaft and the crank is turned then the other end of conrod will also run out laterally by 14 thou.
Not the case here. The pin was true to the shaft and there is side clearance on the connecting rod. This is a steam engine, not a Ferrari. Tolerances are usually +/-0.030. I have seen significantly worse run better than this one.
Good of you to post it just as it really happens in real life. It’s like a criminal case where you begin with the top suspects and prove out the guilt party. Personal experience generally determines the steps we follow and in a complicated situation the path is usually not the same for each investigator. No apologies for the truth! Great video!
Even though you didn't do any machining, it was quite interesting seeing how you set the crankshaft up to check it. Sounds like some interesting videos coming up on how you go about getting this problem sorted out.
Unfortunately, one club member is impatient and is doing the repour. I am sure I will have to redo it this summer.
I’m not even mad. I learned a lot in this video.
Not getting the full story is a common problem when trying to repair parts. I usually interrogate my customers pretty thoroughly when they bring in a part for repair. Having knowledge of how the part functions/interacts with it's mating parts is invaluable when trying to figure out what is wrong with the part and how to go about repairing it. Most of my repeat customers realize that if they put up with the intial interrogation it saves them money in the end by not sending me down as many blind alleys. There is nothing wrong with assuming somene else buggered something up if you apologize later when you find out they did it correctly. It shows logical thinking and character all in one. Ken
Point WELL MADE.. "Never bring your parts dirty"..😂
Great video Josh, thank you for showing your setup and the though process involved. So many times with work of that nature the setup and alignment takes longer than the maching. Keep up the good work.
Waiting for part two. Thanks for the video!
still fascinating, seeing the process come together to show that infact there is no problem with the part is as useful as seeing a problem and fixing it. Thanks for sharing and yes definitely want to see more from this build and perhaps the engine at the end running properly if you can do that.
Your insight with antique engines and equipment is a pleasure to watch!! Steam Rules!!!!
Oh no!!! All that work to find out the problem was someplace else. Well you have to rule things out until you get to the real problem. Thanks for the good video. It is always good to see you, Detective Topper.
Very nice inspection Josh. Finding and verified the real problem. I would say whoever did the crankpin before did an excellent job. I'm sure the culprit is the Main Bearings. Thanks for sharing the process. Have a great day.
Thanks to Keith Rucker, I actually got all that! What an honest video! Mornin' Josh.
Correct trouble shooting is the key for a correct repair, good going.😅 I enjoyed this vid too🎉
Very interesting. I’m a hobby machinist. Want to see more of how you diagnose and fix this project. Thanks.
Great content. great to see the troubleshooting and possible solution. just a lot of time to verify things. Happy to see you apologize to the previous machine shop. I have jumped to a conclusion that should have waited till I double checked things.
Nothing to apologize for. What you did was get it right the first time. Sometimes that has to mean no chips.
Hi Josh & it's is Randy and i like yours video is cool & Thanks Josh & Friends Randy
Despite the lack of machining, was very educational. A lot of people would have just setup and machined it anyway based on the initial (incorrect) assumptions and just made the problem worse. Makes you wonder...the people who worked on this before, maybe they were chasing the same problem.
The problem was caused by a shop doing it wrong.
Thank you josh!
I know this content wasn't quite like your normal content, but I found it incredibly fascinating. To see you troubleshooting and spending time getting around parts and double and triple checking everything was so insightful. Thanks for putting this out, in the instant-gratification format that is youtube videos, I often get impatient in my hobby shop. This was a great reminder of the importance of checking your work, and ensuring you have the right solution in mind. Thanks for sharing!
Even with no machining still very interesting content. good onya
Great video and good to see you reject your initial assumption and do the right thing for the customer :)
No machining, no problem. Enjoyed the application of process to troubleshooting. Thanks for posting.
Very interesting. I always find the process of determining the cause of a problem and formulating a solution more interesting than just watching the fix. Always enjoy your videos. BTW, I think you should put a sign on the Lucas machine saying, "Boring Mill" and another sign on that Frankenstein planer with a Bridgeport head that says, "Exciting Mill".
LOL, That would be funny.
Totally agree with cleaning charges. Shop needs to make X amount of money per hour regardless of the tasks undertaken.
I enjoyed following you through this troubleshooting. Sometimes the process is exasperating so if one doesn’t enjoy the challenge they can get awfully frustrated. I used to work on large valves and alignment was critical to their operation. The hardest part of successful problem solving is maintaining your mental condition. When you get anxious the problem usually doesn’t get solved.😮
Good one Josh, Nice troubleshooting / inspection
Fascinating!
love your abilities Josh. Thanks for a good video
Good investigative work.
there is no need to apologize
Never feel you have to apologize for sharing good root cause troubleshooting. The techniques are becoming lost on this generation of interested young men. The passing down of good information is what always made the difference in American industry. Keep up the good work and great videos going!!
Most people have no idea how things work and the positioning and alinement needed for it to work properly.
Good work!!
Pure ingenuity.
Hello Josh I would check the rod bearing alignment before I done anything to the main bearings. The rod bearing will give you run-out as well as the Crank Pin.
That was actually checked also, off camera.
So much to learn here. Good work
Always love the 4am videos Josh
I know it will be a minute before they get it back together, but when they do, let us know how much better it runs. I am so curious to know the outcome.
I really enjoyed watching the setup process and at one point was convinced that the shaft was bent. You proved me wrong. Great job and I hope we can see the rest of the mystery as it unfolds.
They sent the wrong part to fix Josh, excellent diagnosis of geometry. Thanks for sharing
even though there was not chips made, its still a very good video as i dont see as much indicating as this video has shown in the other machinists channels i watch. Most show a little bit of the process, but I hardly ever get a proper idea how long the process usually takes.
Some I watch never indicate at all, and it shows. Setup is the most important part of the job.
Nice investigation Josh. I've machined parts only to have the millwrights/fitters come back to me saying i did the job wrong. I then hold their hand, give them some candy, then walk them through my process only to prove them that you cant put good parts in a shitty worn out machine. Like you say, "do it right the first time". There are no short cuts in machinery building or repair. Regardless of what the boss says.
Looks like this is turning into a nightmare. What seemed obvious is not the problem, so now it looks like the real problem is going to be far worse and a lot more trouble to fix.
Another new adventure!
Josh, this video was even better than watching chips fly with death and destruction and hearing Connor use air tools in the background ...no apologies needed..........always learning something new....Thank You So Much...PB
Always amazing what guys had to go through to even make something like that back in the old days.
Very interesting to see where thereto cause lies. Enjoyed, cheers!
Interesting watched all. Thanks for sharing
Thanks for watching
Good stuff
Great video 😊
I just Google searched '25 HP Minneapolis steam traction engine'... that thing is HUGE! Its crazy to think that now, riding lawnmowers have more power than that. lol Love the steam engine work though! 😎
LOL, not even close. Boiler HP is way different. This engine is probably in the 90HP range on the belt. I used to know all the info on boiler Hp and belt hp, and the difference in internal combustion. Steam does create way more torque than you can imagine.
In any trade diagnosing the cause of the issue takes the most skill. You had to methodically work backwards from what you have seen in the past as being the most likely issue. Then with careful aligning and measuring you were able to rule out the crankpin, then the straightness of the shaft as being the cause of the problem. Then the conrod was ruled out, then the side thrust face of the crankpin, at least it did not have enough runout to cause the level of side to side movement of the conrod. Then the analysis of the main bearing alignment in the block. That would make sense if the crank was not positioned true to the axis of the block, particularly at right angles to the piston/cylinder bore axis, then the conrod would have a lot of side load on it. That would also show up in wear marks on the side skirt face of the piston (near the gudgeon pin) and also some sort of marking/scuffing in the cylinder bore. As you have indicated there will need to be a lot of jigging to get the crank in correct alignment to the block before re-pouring the Babbitt bearings. Alignment will need to be spot on laterally as well as vertically. Won't that be fun. The only other thing I would check is that the split brass machined two piece big end bush in the conrod is indeed absolutely square to the conrod. However if it wasn't that would have already shown up as diametrically opposed wear in that bush. Retired mechanic/machinist in Land Down Under.
Very interesting video
It goes back to the measurement stuff, it needs to be done right. Thanks for the video
Yup, proper setup and measurements make or break everything
An honest machinist
I sure try to be.
Although it isn't the most profitable
Not only, don't bring your stuff in dirty... Have respect for your machinist, or mechanic, bring it clean, show respect !!!
Yes, thank you
No need to apologise that was an interesting video josh👍😂😂😂
Everyone that does repair has been down the same rabbit hole. Don't worry, we have comfy chairs and cold beer down here. As for the cleaning - if you bring me something caked in crud I'm going to take extra long cleaning it. You know, just to be sure. And it'll be at shop rate.
Josh, take this 2 bucks and go crazy ........cheers, Paulie Brown
Seems like a normal day of troubleshooting in industry. You never know what happened beforehand. Often things have been messed with and you have to figure out the original problem, plus whatever "not me" did to the machine. Looking forward to seeing how you fixture everything to repour the bearings. Contending with three axes of alignment could be challenging.
An impatient club member already poured the bearings. I'm sure it will need to be redone.
Measure twice and cut once.....an interesting vid on how to zero in on what the real issue is.
Thanks!😁
Thank you Don!!!
There is a measuring problem: The coaxial indicator sensitivity decreases with the long measuring rod since the angle the tip moves is less. The shorter the rod, the greater the deflection angle for each 0.001" of tip deflection. That is why there is such a low indicated TIR. So you could make an square bent short offset rod, just long enough to reach the length of the pin. Or mount a standard test/dial indicator and sweep with the spindle.
good
I think that the problem with the coaxial indicator measurement might be the ratio of movement with the long reach is it will take a lot of movement at the end to make the reading change.