[Don't Try This] Pushing the 308 Win to 300 Win Mag (Bat Machine, Alpha Munitions)
[DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME]
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The following Ultimate Reloader partners are featured in this video:
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- Alpha Munitions
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Please read this entire comment, updated 04/01/2024 [DO NOT TRY THIS EXPERIMENT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM- this test was conducted with hands-on help from world-class experts] A lot of you have missed the point of this video: This is a SCIENTIFIC TEST to demonstrate a few things: 1. The increased pressure capacity that Alpha Munitions brass can handle 2. The amazing strength of Bat actions, see kzhead.info/sun/ic-vdtiki3erhps/bejne.html for more info 3. The IMPORTANT relationship between chamber, brass, and resizing die - see in-depth video here: kzhead.info/sun/aNOIlLWae6Nnnn0/bejne.html This is NOT a suggestion that 308 Winchester can replace a 300 Win Mag. [[[We got within 98.2% of Nosler's 300WM Max data]]] Here's the math: Nosler lists 10 powders/loads for 300WM 210 grain (average max load = 2807.8 fps), and 10 powders/loads for 300WM 220 grain (average max load = 2700.3 fps). The middle ground (215gr equivalent) between these is 2754.05 fps. We achieved 2706.3 here with 308, so that's 98.2% of what Nosler lists as equivalent 300WM max performance for a 215 grain bullet.
That's Noslers load data. You don't think you could push beyond that? Hard to believe you couldn't get more out of the 300 WM with a higher chamber pressure and larger case capacity. Would've been a cool video. Anyway, keep it up.
@@Rumpleforskin2000 That's our 308 performance compared with Nosler's 300WM data :)
308 the same longer barrels slower powders
Gavin, that’s simply amazing that you were able to achieve that kind of pressure and still not get most of the signs usually seen, not even at 90 KPSI!! Great work!!👍👍
Forgive my ignorance. Does that mean that if it was possible to use steel case, you could have gone higher in pressure?
somewhere in kentucky a man named scott is touching his neck
OMG! You may be close to the mark!
Holy fuck 😂
😂😂😂 I hope Scott see this!!
Neck tingle
Can you post your email address Gavin please
Bubba's pissin'-hot handloads
This experiment speaks volumes about the quality and structural strength of BAT actions, Alpha brass and Gavin’s machining work.
Thank you!
I've heard of cryo treating barrels, I'm rebuilding an engine now and reading about how much stronger cryo treated parts are, has anyone tried cryo treating an action and bolt to find out how much stronger it is???
@@RockKnocker17it really depends on the steel alloy, but for some, cryo treatment does indeed increase performance. This usually comes in the form of more toughness for the same hardness, or higher hardness for the same toughness. But other alloys don't benefit from it.
I have a feeling Alpha Muntions will be busy cranking out .308 cases for many many months as a direct result of this video. 👏 Im a big fan. Great content. Thanks!
Now, do this same test with a 300 Win Mag. 24-26" test barrel with the 215 gr. If you can reach 3100fps+ then you guys are certified badasses.
If Alpha made 300WM brass, I'd be all over that!
@@UltimatereloaderPeterson makes 300 Win Mag brass.
@@rsquared9703 Peterson makes their brass so good people are running in excess of proof pressure and getting 10x reloads on it.
@@randomidiot8142 proof is double the max pressure. Wherever you got that information is wrong
@@Ultimatereloader Broz on long range only has tons of data on the 300wm with 215's fyi
One of the few not clickbait videos i've seen in a long time. Good entertainment.
Thank you!
Any video that says “don’t try this” I can’t click on fast enough 😅
Can't beat a good disclaimer! :)
Yup
I see .308, I see .300 win mag. I click. .30 cal is where the party is at! Super cool work!
Likewise.🫡
@@notyouraveragegoldenpotato Thank you!
Ammo test was good and all, but I can’t get over the view! Absolutely stunning.
Thank you, my favorite place to go! :)
@Ultimatereloader are you up Mission Creek?
Good work men. A cut-away of Alpha brass vs other brands would be a perfect addition to these videos.
Glad see that you mic'd the case heads. I was so close to commenting mic the case heads in the first minute of the video and huge sigh of relief when you started mic'ing the case head
Lol, glad I read through some comments before I made the same statement.
@@billbennett9537definitely a comment worth making repeatedly. Started carrying my micrometer with me when testing hot ammo
Don’t try this at home!!!! This is a great video on the subject of pressure signs and how they don’t equate to max load/ max pressure. I’ve used book listed velocity as a stopping point for 30 years for this reason. That said, whether intentional or by accident, this may be the best advertisement for Alpha brass ever created. Wish Alpha Brass made 22-250, .223, 22 or 17 Hornet brass.
Issue is, modern cartridges like the 308 and many of the most modern are quite straight in the body and that reduces the visible signs of pressure compared to older more "vedge" shaped..
@@jmkhenka The case taper? Yeah, .308 has much less taper than, say, a .22-250. I just found an old .22-250 round in one of my really old rifle cases (must have been my dad's as he had a .22-250) and I was comparing it with .308. First time I remember looking at a .22-250 and it seemed like there was a lot of room to blow the walls out straighter, use a sharper shoulder, and you could probably get a lot better performance... Though you'd probably want to run heavier pills/larger caliber so that it doesn't kill barrels even quicker! Totally off-topic but as I was comparing the two I was thinking "why doesn't the military use a case this size" as they've been wanting to go back to short-action instead of intermediate. Seems like you could get better velo's creating a round with a COAL between the 5.56 and 7.62 NATO, Like a 2.5-2.6in COAL, with a powder reservoir in the middle of the two. I guess it's probably due to standardization of box magazine sizes and splitting the difference would require an entirely new magazine design. But yeah, like a ".223 rem mag" or a ".7mm-08 special" , but not just adding/subtracting length, having the case head diameter split the difference as well. Get better velocities, flatter trajectory, longer effective ranges than an intermediate, while saving some weight and having less recoil than with a .243/6.5CM/.308. But maybe people have already tried it and the gains wouldn't warrant the cost of development... Don't mind me, I'm just thinking to myself, lol
The 308 Winchester has been underrated for a long time it will suprise you what it can do
most excellent concept and video! Would love to see same concept for 30-06 and 6.5 Creedmoor cases! Bravo!
Outstanding! As a long-time fan and user of the 308 Winchester, I am amazed at the results obtained. :)
I load my 300 win mag long. 76gr h1000, Berger 215gr hybrid at 2900 fps.. you guys are nuts for even cracking 2700 in a 308 lol
No click bait here! Thanks Gavin!!!
Excellent video and appreciate the multiple safety warnings. We worked up a 300 H&H full case load with a flat base 150 grain bullet that shot fine in my pre 64 model 70 Winchester. Took one shot in a friend's Remington model 721 and had a stiff bolt opening with brass and primer pressure signs. Much caution required to be safe when pushing loads.
No Kentucky Ballistics collab for this one?
Those are good guys over there!
He's got enough holes without needing more
😂
Avoid SLAP rounds
No horrible idea. Do not even let Kentucky see this.
Keep pushing the limits so we can all continue to learn more! Great video, great components, great gear, & great guys.
Thanks, will do!
Key insights: 1.) Case head pressure signs are depended on the type of primer, brass, and bolt face. 2.) A case failure will most likely ruin your action and could injure you. 3.) With strong brass, case head pressure signs don't appear until you are well over SAAMI levels. 4.) Alpha brass w/ SRP is tough stuff. I would love to see you test brass life w/ the 44.0 charge (did not show extractor swipe and estimated 80kpsi) Make wise decisions people....
At the risk of sounding like Captain Obvious here are a few more factors to consider about this exercise: 1.a) Precision reloading equipment, instruments and techniques to match the loaded round as close as possible to a specific action and chamber. 2.a) A high quality action mated to a barrel chambered by a very competent smith. Everything about this rifle and the ammo is TOP QUALITY. Bottom line: You wouldn't shoot this ammo in any other rifle because this load development is very specific to this one single rifle. Don't try this with a mass produced off-the-shelf rifle that by design has much looser tolerances - that's why we have SAAMI specs.
Ask Scott about his serbu .50 cal accident.
Great ammo test and testing long range with the load was cool to see in some beautiful country that is what hunters experience out west. Thanks for sharing this with us.
When you deal with tight tolerances, premium consumables, etc this is the result.Intriguing video.
Absolutely amazing video guys. I’m fairly new to long range precision shooting but I’ve come a long way this past year. I lost my leg while in a coma from Covid 19. So since hunting was so much trouble I dove right in to target shooting, starting with rimfires. I watch your channel pretty often. Y’all take care from South Louisiana. Mike
Wow, sorry to hear about your leg, and glad that you are finding great ways to enjoy shooting sports, thanks for supporting our channel!
@@Ultimatereloader Hey thanks so much for the reply. I did want to say we got our 1st 1000yard range just last October. I had 8 impacts out of 10 shooting their 6.5 Creedmore. I always would shoot on the pipeline at the camp but our sport of long range precision shooting had yet to take off. I am so happy to see how far it has come in very recent years. Anyways, thank y’all so much for the work y’all put in making videos. I’m sure it’s not as easy as most people think it is. Take care
very impressive! and the place you were shooting, that is just beautiful. Sure would love to try it. kool stuff guys!
Great video. You took it to the limit with the data and great range shooting.
Thank you!
Thank you for this Video ! Very Interesting I have been reloading mine 308 at 43 grns And thats for me and my rifle sig blazer sweet spot , with a 168grn bullet tack driver for me!
I liked seeing that old Weatherby box on the shelf. I have a few of those floating around too!
Very enjoyable, interesting and informative! Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great show
Very cool guys. I love watching two gunsmiths seeing what they can do lol.
Thank you for watching!
This is a great video! Love your channel
Thanks for watching, we had fun with this one!
I think you should do 30-06 next
Good to hear about bat machine. I hope Bruce and everyone are doing well. Back in the 80s there was a high-power shooter selling steel replacement case heads for 308 or 30 ought 6 cases. They were giving me the same 80,000 PSI pressures that sig is boasting about for their new cartridge.
Good stuff gentlemen. Thanks!
Thank you for watching!
This is honestly now my favorite UR video. Every aspect of it. Layout/presentation, loading, testing, data, and even some long range! Nice first round impact @ 1,300+ Gavin! 6.5 CM with CCI 450's or 6.5 PRC Peterson or Lapua with Mag primers as well, would both be interesting tests. Thanks for sharing a glimpse of the bleeding edge of DNS (do not shoot) performance. Moore 25 Creedmoor, before Hornady announces it!
Thank you for sharing this great information
As a hand loader this is equal parts scary, funny in a wow sort of way and surprising. Very interesting but I will continue to never go above the listed load data, if you need more power step up to a more powerful cartridge, this video does a good job at illustrating just how fast the pressure increases with every grain added.
I'm perplexed, how does one overpressure a cartridge with a powder that is nearly impossible to overpressure in said cartridge? On top of that, not deforming the ogive or meplat?
MEtALlurGy hAs GoTTen sO gOOd +p+ iS JusT a sugGesTioN 😂
phillhuddleston, I never, well, Almost never, say never... ☆
@@fjb4932 True.
@@PBVader Good point, max loads are usually a slightly compressed load with 168 gr bullets and with as long and heavy of bullets as they are shooting I would think it would be difficult to get that much powder in the case.
Very entertaining, informative, and eye-opening. Not that I will ever try this.
You guys are nuts. Definitely a do not try at home load. I flirt with the max recommended pressures with a lot of my handloads. This is another level. Especially with that bullet mass. Fascinating to watch and a little horrifying the whole way. Truly impressive results. I'll add to the chorus. DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!
:)
@@Ultimatereloaderive been testing pure zinc rounds. Still not sure about instant pressure for seating depth/internal space vs the lighter weight of the projectiles fired. Would think a lighter bullet seated at the same depth would exhibit less pressure. I tend to load hot and shallow seat as much as possible anyway. But?
Pretty wild, nìce to know this much more can be done with the right gear and knowhow, and great marksmanship too
You guys were living the dream I would love to be able to pursue in this video.
Fantastic video my favorite so far !!!
Wow, thanks!
@Ultimatereloader I mean it. I don't ever reload max usually end up 1.0 below book. But this video really scratched my itch of wondering what happens with ideal circumstances. I ordered 500 worth of ocd brass after watching this in 6.5 creed with small rifle primer to really stretch out my mpa
This is awesome brass! Ive had problems with .243 with Federal Fusion and signs of over pressured ammo. Nice vid! God Bless.
Those last 2 or 3 test I'd of been pulling the trigger with a string & hiding behind something..that was nuts & even more nuts that it handled it well & you guys still have your faces ..lol..great video guys 👍
Why? The brass will show you everything you need to know long before you need to use a string to pull trigger hiding behind a tree! That along with sticky bolt !
308 is no slouch . Did similar tests in 1965-66 at a mile . I was impressed then , knew how u do now . Nice job !
In my rem 5R, I ran 185gr Berger Juggs to almost 2800fps using PP-2000-MR powder. The best load was closer to 2750, and now it has slowed down to under 2700, but still shoots the same. 1400yds on a silhouette is tough, but doable.
Ackley would be proud of you guys for this one!
WELL SAID! Too many safety Karen's around here.
Alpha Brass cautions reloaders about unreliable pressure signs with it's brass. It is super brass for reasons.
Peterson also. It's in their product descriptions everywhere.
@@randomidiot8142starline has the small primer 308 brass too although i think theirs is the standard flash hole size. Tried lapua brass with the .059 flash hole size and didn’t really notice any hang fire. Not like in a flintlock anyway
Looking at those pressure signs in the brass made my skin crawl! Thank goodness I'm not nearly as adventurous as you people when it comes to reloading! Incredible to see the maximum potential, of the caliber, no matter how horribly dangerous.
Great video!
Absolutely amazing!
I have done certain experiments I won't detail here, but this confirms my thoughts and observations from results I have gotten. To get more out of a cartridge, the brass needs to be tougher to handle higher pressures. With such brass, cartridges can be more efficient with powder to velocity. Interesting to see if we can redefine the limits of our cartridges with better brass.
308 Gavin improved brass
They are exceeding the yield limit of brass. Their chamber is supporting everything the brass can not flow because they have blocked off all escape routes for the brass. It is not just the brass that is holding it together.
30" barrel, throat to except that bullet pushed way out and a honed chamber to hold that brass better. .000 headspace, that thing will be sing'en!
277 fury is the brass you’re looking for
@@K-bob_45 yep. I've reloaded mine 6-7 times at.. HIGH.. pressure and they're fine.
Great video …can’t imagine the time you gentleman have invested in this video
Living every young handloader's dream!
Absolutely insane!!! Love it.
Staggering! My initial thoughts were very not flattering towards this excursion. But I am quite surprised. Overall conclusions make sense overall. Thank you.
Thanks for watching! It was pretty crazy to do this test :)
What a beautiful property!
Thank you!
I used to take my Weatherby chambered in 30-06 to 300 win mag velocities all of the time. My primers never bulged, my brass never stuck or swelled and I never had any problems of any kind. It also shot my 3100fps 150gr boattails to minute and below groups. It was my favorite Pronghorn and Mule Deer rifle for years.
That scope cam at 23:52 is so cool! You see the bullet and then a perfect center punch on target.
Excellent test of what can be done with the correct knowledge and precision equipment rig and components. I’m getting 2860 with N 540 and 175 RDF and lapua brass in a tikka super varmint so far holding up sds in the low teens and 4 firings and holding up. Just fine. Alpha may be tested after these cases are done
Been usin alpha.308 lg pr awhile and good to see this….i like there ammo bx too
In 308, my accuracy load of 44.0 grs. VARGET/Hornady 168 gr. AMAX/ELD-M/Hornady brass/CCI 400. 2700 fps from 26" barrel on a trued Remington action with bushed firing pin. Rifle was built 28 years ago. I need to upgrade my equipment. Excellent video!
Thank you
Pretty impressive work here. I love SRP 308 brasss. I’ve tested some lapua SRP brass in my 308 win, yielded ~100 fps more than some of my other loads in 150 grain. However if I was chasing 30 cal speed, I’d go with a 300 WSM. I like the shorter barrel efficiency, especially for suppressed hunting.
Somewhere in that great gun room in the sky, Ken Waters is smiling and nodding his head in approval. :)
Now this was fascinating! Would love to see other cartridges tested like this. 556, 6.5cm, 7mm, maybe even 338?
Holy smokes guys! This was incredible but insane at the same time! Awesome to see actual MAX EFFORT 308 loads.
In the early 90’s Handloader had an article using VV-550 to load the 308 to 30-06 levels. As a new handloader this sounded great. I proceeded to work up to their max charge weight and lo and behold my 20” .308 was achieving 24” 30-06 velocities with 165 gr bullets. Unfortunately the brass no longer retained the spent primers and thus ended my high performance 308 loads. This was either Winchester or Remington brass: I was content to load the 308 as a 308
Thanks! Will try the 47 gr. load with my Remmie/Savage tomorrow! ;) ;) ;)
Thanks for the data and video Gavin! Very interesting results! Would love to see the combo of 7mm-08 with the 195 EOL bullet to see if they can get to 7mmWin mag velocities..
I have a MCX Spear in 308. If you know anything about these rifles, you know about the 6.8x51/.227 Fury high pressure rounds. SIG is now manufacturing those stainless rimmed high pressure casings loaded in 308 too. I love the idea of pushing the 308, it's a huge round!
I have been using the Alpha brass. In 6.5 CM with 147gr ELDM I have exceeded max with great results. The velocity is 2812 FPS with a 22” bbl. Very much enjoyed the 308 video. Thank you
I'd like to be able to have small primer .243 brass. Your gunsmithing was spot on.
This was a rifle build with good components, percision reloading and good case/primer monitoring. I would love to get some Alpha brass and compare my load data from the Hornady brass that I'm using. Great epsoide.
Excellent! First class, grade A, top notch work. Had me flipping manual pages, comparing powder density burn rate chart's, and pulling up my personal favorite Vhitavouri load data. Sometimes I dig up an old out if date Lyman print and Metallic Cartridge Reloading third edition. I came up with two other powders I'd opt to see worked. Excellent shooting too,✌🏻👶🏻🚬 Smokin' baby!
Thank you for watching and engaging in the data, love it!
The thumbnail made me laugh for a good min and watch this vid. Kudos. TO DA MOON.
I have LE Wilson dies and an arbor press for loading close to the firing line. I am legitimately jealous of your at the range reloading shack. :)
I use Alpha in my 6 BRA supper tuff ,love it
Great stuff
This was a fascinating episode. But, I’m curious as to how the recoil of your top end loads compare to an equivalent velocity load for a 300 Win Mag. Or maybe how an equivalent level of recoil in a 30-06 compares in velocity to your top end loads. Truly fascinating work Gavin! 👍👍
Y’all are mad lads and I’m here for it lol
Very interesting!
Now this is real reloading!
Thank boys love yall.
I bet the muzzle brake was working good...... I loaded BLC-2 to the max LEE book load with 155gr ELD M. I stuck 2 cases out of 3 & blew out 2 primers.... I felt no recoil. I fell for the brass that said reamed trimmed & ready to load. They sell 308 & 223 brass in plastic jugs won't name them. You sold me on the Alpha Brass. Don't worry I will not try this but great video
Same here with junk hornady brass
Excellent content..
Thank you!
Thanks I use a BAT VR and it’s a tank… emergent is probably a similar spec
Just crazy but great to see all the data then the 1,390yd shot.
Thank you- it was AMAZING to see all of this come together!
This video is inspiring me to give it a big,”Hell yeah”.
My rem 700 varmint comfortably pushes 168gr speer match bullets at 2820 fps with a factory 26 inch barrel and varget. I did push it to where I found pressure signs, but the velocity didn't make any real gains. Given the velocity and ES values I was getting, I was more than happy. I'm definitely in the mid range of most 30-06 factory loads. Pushing to 300 win mag wasn't even a thought lol. You're a wild man!
Thanks for the quick reply. Always enjoy watching your your you tube channel. Have a good one . I own 2 308’s .
Been there, did it, done it, on my Ruger American and 450 bushmaster. The same action in the American 450 BM is used on the 300 win mag which is rated almost 64,000 psi if I remember. I ran a ladder test all the way to 460 S&W max load book data with zero pressure signs. Never tried it again but there were zero case or primer pressure signs and no hard bolt lift all the way to max.
Then you never hit max load ! Your max load is not the written standard max load ! Every chamber is a lil different
I have always wanted to do this with the 300 RUM. If you ackley the RUM the potential is mind blowing.
This was very interesting.
Sitting here trying to decide what to say. And all I can come up with to say is…. Amazing!
Interesting test.
Thank you!
Given your backgrounds in both gunsmithing, reloading and ballistics... your channel is the one that I would put the highest level of trust in when researching the upper limits of a calibers performance. This is something that I have enjoyed doing for nearly fifty years. I have been lucky enough to be able to attend numerous conferences via ADPA/NDIA and to have the guidance of experts at the level of national labs, arsenals and proving grounds in the past with some of my projects. So the respect that I have for your channel is based on comparisons with some exceedingly strong backgrounds. My interests have included mostly interior and terminal ballistics with forays into exterior ballistics having to do aero thermal limits of projectiles. Internal ballistics checkpoints have been encountered in the both the areas of acceleration gradients and hyper-velocity gouging. Terminal ballistics limits and interior ballistics limits were ultimately determined by hydrodynamic and sound speed parameters especially where launch and impact physics transcended the communication (sound) speeds of the materials being studied! Studies undertaken in the Electro-Magnetic launch community have shown both hyper-velocity gouging and aero-thermal limits will occur in the low to mid 6,000 fps range (that may be attenuated somewhat by projectile/bore hardness tailoring) with aero-thermal limits (for tungsten/carbon nosetip projectiles) being encountered in the 3.5 km/sec. range. I have encountered the gouging phenomena multiple times with propellent guns in both .30 and .50 calibers... and it can happen with the very first shots in the high 6,000 - to low 7,000 fps range! These guns by the way are operating in pressure ranges of 200 - 250,000+psi where stuck cases have not been a problem when using the front part of a case' to locate the projectiles at the desired shot start location in barrels with significant throat erosion. Barrel life at these regimes are on the order of several dozen shots which can develop 8 - 10 inches of throat erosion. The brass case is vaporized! None of this is practical for a normal firearm and testing with them must be at a safe location with firing done remotely... even when testing is being done by DOD! Obviously, it's best to limit the bore diameters to.50 caliber and under to avoid coming within the NFA guidelines. All of the foregoing tests were either conducted by someone else (Aberdeen, Balcony...LLNL, et al.) or in the late 80's/early 90's, by me. The center fire cartridges that I have done extensive testing with included .600 Nitro vs. .50 Bmg and a .300 Chey-tac and .300 RUM vs. .30/378 Weatherby's. More recently developed a.50/416 (Rigby) that got surprisingly close to.50 BMG velocities with comparable projectiles. Back to your video... this is probably the most interesting and well documented video that I have seen in this genre...on U-tube! I don't know how you could have done a better job! These are the types of videos where my interests currently have been. Keep your powder dry (the importance of which would be an informative video)!
I am 100% going to try this myself.
I believe the chambering, the barrel strength, and action strength along with the Alpha brass has to be right or one could be asking for a trip to the hospital or even the morgue. PEOPLE PLEASE BE CAREFUL. Thanks Gavin for a great video and very informative stats.
Before your panties get too wadded up, consider that the same basic receivers are used for .338 lapuas as .300 win mags and .308s. .700" bolt bodies and 2 lugs is very very common. The thrust from a .308 case vs a Lapua case makes the receiver very overbuilt for .308 or marginal for .338 Lapua, but no one gets bent over Lapua loads that are inherently more dangerous.
Pressures are likely to go up to 62000?
You guys are straight up crazy...and I respect you for that. Because the 308 can. Maybe in the future people can make a stronger case and action to make it a safe round.