Three Ways to Find the Lands!
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Trying to find the Lands? This video will demonstrate what the lands are show three ways to find them.
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My method is actually the last one that Travis showed. The one where you let the lands push bullet in. But it is neck tension dependent. I also put die wax in bullet ogive to prevent it from sticking in the lands. The method of seating bullet deeper and deeper until bolt closes is the Alex Wheeler method. As you said, there are a tons of ways to measure this. Multiple ways to remove outer layer from feline. 😁
Nice! I was surprised at how consistent this method was.
Not a comment for Erik (he clearly knows what he is doing), but a comment on his process. I suspect the benefits of either the second (loctite) or third (Erik Cortina... or similar Alex Wheeler method) is consistency/repeatability in that in the second and third, it is a combination of the camming action of the bolt plus whatever you neck tension is. If you are good at consistent neck tension, then you should get repeatable results. For the first, when using the rod to push the bullet in, that level of force is variable from one person to another and maybe even from one test to another from the same person. I personally use the Alex Wheeler method and have found it to be very repeatable while the rod method is not. The downside of the Wheeler method is you have to do things like remove the extractor, etc. from the bolt because the ONLY force you want to feel is that of the bullet touching, barely touching or not touching the lands as you close the bolt (and not compressing an extractor spring for example). It also requires a bolt that closes easily/smoothly. Lastly, I can imagine using the bolt to seat the bullet vs. the Alex Wheeler method maybe creating different measurements because using the bolt to seat the bullet, is pushing you slightly into the lands, while the Wheeler method may allow you to measure where the lands are just touching. I should probably give Erik's method a try as it might be easier to do in the long run.
Erik's method is what I've been using for the past 10yrs.
For this method, do you use form sized brass or re-sized brass ?
And the feline is much maligned. Thank YOU for sharing! I used my lighter to smoke the bullet!
ONE CRITICAL THING WITH THE LOCTITE. you need to de-prime the brass! If not, the air inside the case will push out the loctite into the chamber. dont ask me how i know this..
I haven' tried this method but was thinking the same. We use those anaerobic adhesives on a great many things in my trade and some of them are no joke. Since they put this to the masses they should have spent much more time on it and emphasized which ones to use and exactly how to do it with no fudge room.
@@indydurtdigger2867 yeah it's a mess to remove, as its like lacquer when dried. Can't be easily solved by chems either.
Thex
@@jmkhenka nail varnish remover eats loctite threadlocker
@@pj4433 Some of them yes. Others are chem resistant if not outright insoluble.
I started reloading in the early 60’s before oal comparators, with all my knowledge coming from reloading books and magazines, totally absorbed into shooting and reloading. Early on, I started trying multiple methods, some discussed here, but I found that if you just took whatever bullet you were going to use, drop it down the bore and just tap it lightly to jam the lands, I took a wooden dowel, advanced down the muzzle till it touched the bullet, then make a mark on the dowel with a sharp pencil at muzzle, then push bullet out of the barrel with the dowel, remove bullet, close the bolt , push dowel till it is up against bolt face, then remove dowel. Measuring the distance with my trusty Craftsman dial caliper precisely gives me my max coal for that particular bullet. I would then and now, especially it seems with all Berger bullets, they do better with up to .080 of jump. This easy method has always worked for me. I would like to have one of those nice Delrin rods though. Would seem to be perfect to use for same method.
I like your method!
Great method. To me its finding the accurate seating depth, not the lands. I let the target tell me where to seat the bullet when working up a load. I think many of them have a good sized jump. Or not. lol
Loctite method seems fine. You can then use a sharpie to write the length right on the case, and keep the whole thing as a reference forever. Ideal. Thanks for bringing this to us.
Exactly what I done, except I just used some regular glue instead of loctite, but then all the info is on the case
Why not just right it down in your reload book?
@@John_Redcorn_ Ah! What a treasure trove I'd have if I could have every note and slip of paper I ever wrote something on (and remembered what the hell it meant). But I don't. "Writing things down" is a great idea -- that VERY often doesn't amount to much, lol.
@@GetMeThere1 well thats why they make reload journals with places to write these things down. Lol 😂
@@John_Redcorn_ LOL. I'm left to wonder just WTF is wrong with you. I gave my idea of how I'd like to do something, and you feel a need to come along to say "No. You should do this instead." Not with the claim of an insight into a better way, and therefore that your way is better, but (seemingly) just to say "Do it my way instead of your way." Good luck with your fucking journal -- perhaps one day you'll have the urge to stick it up your ass! As for me, I prefer a direct object clearly on display (or put in a small drawer specifically for such types of objects) rather than a written DESCRIPTION of the same object, which, to be always available would have to be indexed and catalogued in such a way that the information can be retrieved.
Cheap trick: Glue the bullet in the casing, load it before the glue has dried, wait for it to dry, pull out. Put it in bullet seating dye, adjust the dye until you feel resistance.
Regarding the locktite method. I always pop the primer out. This allows air to escape out of the back of the case when the bullet is seated in the lands. Stops loctite from seeping out of the case neck into the chamber of the rifle.
When using the OAL gauge, try using this with the rifle in a vertical position. What this does by having the muzzle pointing upwards, you can lightly lift the bullet to the contact point and not jam the bullet into the lands. If your bullet is sticking into the lands, you really have no idea how deep that is going.
So cool to see a actual cutaway while you guys explain what’s going on. That definitely makes it clear what every little step on the print is for!
On my race pistol got a neat cutaway realy quick. Once.neet to see how chamber reamer worked well. Going deeper when groups got bad . Nothing loose now . go Deeper.got very good groups. Do em all long now. This sport got to be an " arms race"
I’ve used a brass rod and two locking collars. You close the bolt and insert the rod to the bolt face and set a collar at the barrel end. Then insert a bullet and use a pencil or rod to hold pressure on the bullet from the action end. Insert the rod to the bullet tip and set another collar. Measure between them and you have your jam. But Eric’s method is much simpler.
....and remember that we just do this once to get the measurements to use to adjust seating depth.🤙
I like this way. I have tried the modified case but didn’t really like it so I just got this one do come up the the same theory as yours. “Frankford Arsenal Cartridge Overall Length Gage”. I like your idea with brass rod and lock rings. I’ll have to find your components and check it out.
Great information for reloaders, even if we are not building a rifle or taking our reloading to that degree. Understanding this and seeing it really helps to understand how everything really works together for accuracy!
I've used Travis' method for years. I recently picked up the Hornady tool and haven't quite tested it like you guys but it's interesting to see that the bullet can be pushed further in and logically that makes sense. Thanks for the videos guys!
EXCELLENT video - that cutaway shows with complete clarity how a cartridge and bullet sit in the chamber with the tolerances that reloaders talk about. As a raw beginner, that first 4 minutes utterly crystallised so much that I've been trying to understand from books. Many Thanks from the UK.
Yes, it was awesome
I always used the modified case that Hornady sales and their OAL tool until I seen the video on how Eric Cortina's does it. He even says he lubes the bullet with sizing die wax to help keep the bullet from sticking and it works really good with bolt action rifles. I still use the Hornady modified case method when I'm working up a load on AR15s. Great video as always keepem coming guys!!!
For the last 30 years I’ve used an empty case and superglue instead of Loctite
Thanks for the ongoing videos. Great stuff. I will say I have driven myself crazy trying to get consistent readings with the OAL gauge. (Especially true with VLD bullets.) TINY variances in pressure on the push rod change the distance to the lands a fair bit. It’s a hassle to remove the firing pin and ejector button (Wheeler method) or Barrel for the fingernail lift method (Mark Gordon method, explained in the Precision Rifle Blog), but I have found these methods very consistent.
Excellent video Gavin and Travis. I use the Alex Wheeler method for bullet seating and the Erik Cortina method for finding head space and setting up my FL sizing dies.
Gavin, that's the first and best visual demonstration I've seen on this subject. I really liked it, you guys. Maybe another video on where factory ammo is set and the difference of the precise measurement and effects of the differences on performance and barrel ?
One issue with using the close the bolt method is that the seating depth might be increased by the pressure of the bolt. Furthermore, then when the bolt is retracted the bullet might ease out slightly from the case. It would seem the loktite method provides a good maintain of the bullet in the case. But I cringe at any red loktite in my chamber!
I’ve used the sharpie method for several decades, but bought hornady’s oal gauge 3-4 years back. I made my own dummy cases (fired in my chambers) and bored and tapped on my lathe. I use a hardwood dowel in conjunction with the gauge to push the bullet back and forth to get a good feel for the contact of the bullet and the lands.
I use the locktite method, however instead of using locktite I use a paper patch around base of bullet to keep it snug in the neck.
Super clear video, thanks fellas. I've been using the hornady OAL gauge, because I have one. I'll definitly be trying the other methods for comparison
For 40 years I have held an unloaded case above a candle to get a good sooty effect. Close the bolt gently, extract, and see if you are touching the lands, and by how much. Seat bullet slightly deeper and repeat the process. When the bolt closes easily and there is only the lightest mark of the lands, you know you are good to go to calculate further seating depth. This may be too inaccurate for the most exacting bench-rest shooters, but it gives me one-hole groups from my .222 Rem. I also prefer to headspace using the bolt rather than the shoulder of the cartridge.
I agree with Eriks method and have used it for some 40+ years, I do however use a modified version of that for super super exact loadings, What I do for those is I use my normal push back method and add to it by blackening the bullet with a sharpie or carbon black. I insert the test cartridge, close the bolt and note the land marks on the bullet after it has been pushed back. I then repeat 3 x and note the lengths....depending on the marks of the lands on the bullet will let u judge on whether or not your 3 bullets are seating on the lands consistently and with the same force. Always always always measure your length consistencies exactly like you showed in the video, using the apex of the bullet ogive. Beginning shooters might want to measure from the bullet tip but NEVER NEVER do it as tip profiles in the same batch of bullets can vary significantly, the ogive or slope profiles never changes at least in the same lot of bullets......Use a diffrent lot......start all over..... Just saying !!!!!!!
i have used the last method for years but i use a sinclair hex nut style comparator to measure from the ogive. Works very well. I repeat the process about 10-15 times to make sure i get an accurate reading. Has produced a many a good load both for hunting and long range taget.
I originally used the last method but got tired of having bullets stuck in the barrel and starting over.. then i used the hornady gauge method.. from now on i will start using the loctite method. I like the idea of having a hard copy of each specific bullet/chamber combo i reload for. Going to loctite it in then laser engrave the bullet/rifle combo on the case! Thanks gavin
You guys make a good team, very enjoyable and educational. Thank you for sharing the video and please keep up the good work !
Using the OAL gauge, you're pushing the bullet into the lands, whereas with the other methods, you're not. That is why you're seeing a difference. I've learned to use the gauge and NOT push so hard. Push until you meet resistance then release and then lock the push bar in place. I find that you will see the same kind of measurements as the locktite method.
Yes. Erik Cortina talks about the difference between finding the lands and what he calls the “jam method”.
That's why I want to find my O.A.L. with a fire formed case and resized with just enough neck tension to hold the projectile in place so I'm not jamming it into the lands, just touching. But at the same time I'm not putting to little neck tension so that when I hit it with calipers, it doesn't push the bullet inside the case. I do that 3 times and measure 3 times. If the measurements are the same or pretty close +/- .001 I know I'm good. If the measurements are off, then I know the neck tension is to tight because If the first measurement is 3.290" and the next is 3.330 that means the lands are grabbing the bullet....The bullet shape could be off that much BUT I doubt it.
You can also use some graphite dry lube on the part of the bullet that makes contact with the lands (Ogive) to help prevent the bullet from sticking in your bore.
@@semperfi6288 don’t know why but I like that idea better than case lube
Very Good Information. I love the third method (that I have always used) since it requires no special devices or tools and it is easy IF you are shooting different weights, lengths and ogive geometry, Use a once-fired case, tension the neck ONLY and let the lands seat the bullet. Important that you are careful that the land tension does not pull the bullet out of seating during the extraction of the test cartridge. Perform this a few times and look for consistency. I love watching your knowledge evolve Gavin; its evident form early the early vids to the latest. Shoot on!
Thank you for the AWESOME VIDEO! so much information and love the cutout model! Makes things very clear with a visual example to see.
When I was getting started I would lightly tap a fired case neck on the bench it would provide enough resistance to let the bullet slide into the lands but also allow it to come out. I would do it 3 times to ensure consistency.
Always enjoy your topics. An aside, noticed your bench vise, so am asking…. What size of vice do you recommend for a startup DIYer and what features do you suggest? Thanks in advance.
I used to use the hornady tool with modified cases, but swapped over to the wheeler method a couple years ago. Just seemed the most consistent. Also amazing how many people I have seen with the hornday gauge backwards on the caliper. Not difficult to put the screw in the right side so the gauge is centered to the caliper blade.
This is what I do and I shoot short range benchrest and moving a bullet .003 into or out of the lands is critical!
Really appreciate the content, good information
I've been using the Cortina method for a while then got told to use an AOL gauge so bought one and found it to inconsistent so went back to the Cortina method as it was just way more consistent.
I used to sharpie mark the ogive and look for land marks on the bullet. I've since been using the Hornady OAL gauge and I find the OAL gauge much easier and more accurate on my .223 and .308.
As always Gavin, awesome and informative videos. When casting bullets I almost always make a chamber cast using low temp casting alloy. Tap it out and you have a generally perfect model of your rifles chamber and lands. I wonder if someone could write a 3d modeling program to print a chamber guage for your rifle?? Also, what are your thoughts on barrel manufacturers for higher end barrels making a sequentially cut chamber guage using the exact reamer? Tromix for example. Somewhat like you did with the OEM Howa barrel. I am new to precision rifle handloading, mostly reloading for semi auto mag length rounds and cast lead for semi auto pistol and revolver background.
I've never checked... I have only ever used the manual data... I'm gonna give it a try for sure!!! Hopefully I'll get better rounds quickly.. using my saved data over the course of a long trial and error period and checking the lands this way(method 3 most likely) I'll get everything tuned in...
I also used the last method with a sharpie as well as the OAL gauge. I found over the years that the sharpie method is just a good and it is easier.
Also...for those considering the Hornady gauge, if you send Hornady two fired unsized cases, they will modify your case and send it back to you for $15. I got mine back in about two weeks.
It's so easy to make your own.
Screw Hornady!
Where is the link for the ‘special’ case head tap he mentioned ?
@@ivymike3459 The tap is 5/16-36tpi - You can get them from McMaster-Carr and probably other places that sell machinist tooling. You will likely not find it at the local hardware store.
Not if you live outside of the USA. Service is only available to USA residents. If you live elsewhere you have to make your own.
It's no wonder you were reading longer with the Hornady gauge! If you read the instructions: ------------------------------ “We recommend using no more than 3 or 4 lbs. pressure on the bullet adjustment rod (about that of a light trigger pull). Then, gently tap the bullet adjustment rod with your index finger to ensure the bullet is in light contact with the lands. The most preferred method is to use the bullet adjustment rod in one hand and a wooden dowel inserted through the muzzle in the other hand, “sandwiching” the bullet. This allows a positive feel as the bullet contacts and releases from the rifling. Remember to use the same pressure or “tapping technique” on the bullet adjustment rod each time you use the tool. Keep in mind that you can “drive” the bullet into the lands as much as .025" by using excessive pressure or a “heavy-handed” approach. The key is to find a relatively light, yet positive “touch point” of the bullet’s ogive with the origin of the rifling. It is from this “touch point” that adjustments can be made in bullet seating depth.” ------------------------------ In the video, you could see you pushing so hard you were flexing the rod! Probably using 10lb or more! For the modified case, although I have made my own, you can use the Hornady ones with just as much accuracy - simply measure the difference with a headspace comparator.
Good info. I've had differences of far more than the .025" mentioned...It likely could depend on caliber & the lengths involved. I've had .338 Lapua 300 grain Scenar give a difference of over .200" between the point it can be first felt, vs pushing until it stops (not pounding in with sledge-hammer). I jam a couple in and take measurements just to give a sense to ensure that what I feel is the actual lands, and not resistance in the tool. I've had some bullets that slide more easily than others. Berger really seem to have a hard time moving in the modified case, which makes getting a "touch point" almost impossible. The rod can also give some resistance and I've seen some suggest to sand it down a bit.
Great vidio Guys thank you , I have always used a Hornady o.a.l gauge seems to work ok for me , after I have seated the bullet in the case and locked the push rod in place I use a blunt cleaning rod to push the cartridge and bullet out of the chamber so that the projectile doesn’t stick in the lands , Aussie Steve .
Awesome video. I wanted to save some money for projectiles and powder so I took a case and instead of a full resize I just gave it enough to hold on to the projectile. Not too tight, but not enough to pull out. Paint with a sharpie and push it in and lock it down. I ran it multiple times to verify the bullet wasn’t pulling back out as I have had that happen in early stages. But just like you guys said pick a method and stick with it because you can get varying numbers different ways. Biggest thjng is making sure when you bring the dummy round back out, the rifling hasn’t pulled the bullet out. Sharpy helps you see that!
The cut away barrel was a excellent teaching aid ,everything changes for a change in Bullet manufactures even given the same bullet weight ,Berger verses Sierra or Hornady I wish you would have mentioned that
I also use the 3ed method, but I very lightly tighten up the very end of the neck with my die set so the bullet won't stick in the barrel, I also use a black marker to see the rifling. 👍
Outstanding information.
I am new to reloading and this video is tremendously helpful. One question, I was attempting to do the loctite method last night, and before starting, tried to insert a bullet in a once-fired case. The unsized case mouth is too tight to insert the bullet. Do I need to neck or FL size the fire-formed brass first or chamfer to make slipping the bullet in easier? I'm working with .25-06 brass.
Excellent and as a new Loader I have watch several videos and never really obtained a total grasp till this one. Thanks Guys…
I use the AOL gauge method. I am reasonably new to all of this & still learning.
I use the Hornady case gauge measurement system. Another system I have seen is using a Dremel and cutting a groove in a fired case neck, neck sizing, and then seating the bullet without a ejector using the bolt.
The Sinclair tool is great also, I use that because you don’t need the custom cases like the Hornady.
I use the seating die and a resized empty unprimed case. In increments bullet seating further out until it does not chamber and I get rifling/lands marks on the bullet or the opposite and seating further down until it does chamber and no marks are visible but this takes a number of new unmarked bullets. Then I back it off to my desired COL. As stated, bullet type makes a big difference and results are based on each bullet type. I don't get stuck bullets in the lands this way since the bullet is seated. I only do it to know my chamber size. I do not chase the lands like I used to. Some rifles do not like it close to the lands while others do so I shoot different COL loads until I find the "sweet" chamber spot or accuracy node and that sweet spot will change between types of bullets and over time throat erosion. I have a .223 chamber that absolutely hates bullets close to the lands for that short jump. It likes a long jump to hit its best accuracy. Same for a .22-250 chamber.
TIP: for the Hornady bullet comparator; I just measured 3 different 223 bullets of different weights and manufacturers and found a total of CBTO variance of some .030. All bullets must have identical O'Gives. Then I removed the plastic plunger and filed down the rounded end into a more pointed end and remeasured a 3 bullets again @ 8 each and found the new total variance of the same bullets to be .010. In two of the bullets the CBTO variance was less than 5%. Very accurate now. My conclusion is the bullet bases are not 100% perpendicular to the concentricity of the bullet and the plastic plunger end is too large to get an accurate reading on a small point from the base of the bullets. This was all done in a brand-new JC Custom barrel just purchased and not installed. I wish Hornady would install a smaller metal pointed end on their plunger for a little extra money.
I have enjoyed watching the Howa videos and know you chose to rebarrel. Given that you have all the gear could you have fixed the original factory barrel and how would you have gone about it? It’s great watching you guys work and thanks for sharing this knowledge.
Just starting to get into hand loading and it is easy to get lost in the weeds… This video is. very helpful. How do you approach initial cartridge length measurements for a new system? Imagine new rifle, brass, etc… for the initial firing of new brass, the recommended approach is to seat the bullets at the lands… I understand that it is critical to get a measurement from the bolt face to the lands which the gauge method cannot provide. The difference between the gauge measurement and the bolt methods implies extra headspace even on a fired case… it has been mentioned elsewhere that it can take more than a single firing for a case to fully expand to the chamber dimension and there should be some spring back expected as well. Keep up the great work!
Very impressed, my friend. An inspiration to me to strive to excel and to encourage others to do the same. May you have great success!
Now that was an AWESOME Video ... I just learned a couple more tricks. Thanks Gavin 👍👊
I use travis' method and then the OAL gauge to get an idea of what is kissing the lands and what my JAM is (which is how Cortina does it I believe). I use an Accuracy One comparator which is great because the way it measures, the head spacing does not matter.
Great video and very informative! This works great on some loads but on others it only allows the bullet to be seated inside the brass a few thousands. It doesn't work for all loads. On the Hornady 190 grain subs it works. Going by Hornady manual the round should be off the lands by 1/4".
Morning fellas. Have to say this video is a great explanation of the subject matter. Thanks for the hard work, really well done.
I started this modest little reloading channel myself, for beginners to cover things I didn't understand and were difficult to find. I just started precision, magnum reloading for a 300 PRC and 6.5 PRC. I'm going to share this on my channel and I really appreciate you guys demonstrating the importance of OAL measuring and using such a visually descriptive method to show this. I'm learning more and more myself and I happen to be at this step, as the .300 PRC seems to be VERY finicky about Ammo. I'm realizing that using book load data was giving me 0.0945" of jump on the 212 grain ELD-X and 0.215" of jump on the 250 grain A-tips.
Wow! That’s a big difference in jump. Gets even bigger with erosion from shooting.
I learned to reload on the 6.5 prc and recently the 300 prc. the long jump is typical on magazine fed rounds. To get the bullets up to touchpoint, with the new longer bullets, they won't fit in the magazine. Fortunately there are some good nodes at long jumps. As the throat erodes you may have to adjust seating depth. The long bearing surfaces seem to keep these new long bullets lined up despite the long jump until engagement of the lands.
Well done sirs. I get really "into it" when I reload. Great video!
I think on the last method where you have a seated bullet long and then close the bolt on it you need to make sure that you don't have a lot of neck tension.
I was shown to use the OAL gauge and the rod down the barrel together, so you push the case into the chamber, then using both rods "feel" for the lands with as little force as possible. When you have it lock the OAL and remove. Do this 3 times and compare results. Seems to work fine.
I was just trying to figure out how to do this. Thank you Gavintoobbe!!!
Been using the OAL gauges and have always done it the exact same way every time so I'm hopefully consistent there. However a bullet specific dummy set up to the lands would be a time saver and is clearly accurate as shown. Might have to dig out the red loktite
I’ll be using the Loctite retaining compound or the 290 adhesive. If you use the 290, BEWARE! It’s a wicking adhesive, use a very small amount smeared IN the case. If it leaks out it’ll glue the case and bullet in place. Once you get them out, there will be a hardened film adhered in your chamber.
I use the closing bolt way,and it's never failed. I've found,that it lets me use longer/shorter bullets,and still seats well.
Good show. Thanks. Years ago I did the black marker routine.
Gavin I do two things. I use a fire formed case. Next I take out the firing pin and the extractor out of the bolt. Then I put the case and bolt in the gun. If the bolt does not fall closed freely closed I will bump the shoulder of the case .0005 how ever many times it takes until the bolt falls closed. When that part is done the most free clearance you will have with the case is .00045. Then I start the same prosses over with the bullet. I will start with a measurement using the Hornaday gauge. Then I put the case and bullet in the gun. If the bolt does not fall closed then I will seat the bullet by .002 to .003 at a time. You will know when your about perfect. The bolt will start to fall half way then 2/3. At this point I go to .0005 seating change. When the bolt falls closed you will never be more than .00045 off the lands for that bullet batch #. The only reason for doing this is to know that exact length the bullet ogive touches the lands. I've been shooting bench from 1968 to know. The truth of the matter is the way you showed it the video works the same as I've done. Now matter how you find the lands we all start seating bullets + or - from the measurement we both got from our method we used to find the node the gun shoots at. I will say one thing. I made a tool using a seating die plunge and a dial indicator and comp to check ogive to tip of bullet where the plunger sits. I then write this down and check any other bullet I choose. Using math any other bullet I use I will know where to seat the bullet to start making up a new load just off the lands. I love your work keep it up. I built my first rifle in 1978 22PPC. One other thing, the tool I made and the seating die I use for any give caliber I had reamers made to redo there inside where the bullet hit so they are exactly the same. Good luck Rick D.
Dear Richard, I think you may have the decimal point in the wrong place. Also it is not poss to measure that accurately with a calliper , 0.0005 i.e. Half a thousandth at real best. Regards
@@redhunterknives6675 My dies are able to bump a half thousandth at a time or .0005 my first bump on a fire formed brass is .0015. The point was find just off the lands. If your bolt does not fall closed by it self (no firing pin or extractor) after you know the shoulder of case is not at fault, then your bullet is still touching the lands. PS .0005 is a half thousandth. All my chambers In my bench guns are custom. I use Dave Manson reamers that I have ground to my specs. .0005 +.0005= .001 Shoot tight groups.
I use a digital Height gage that I purchased on the net. Made my own version of the Hornady Shell Holder that snaps into the the plat that the height gage is bolted to. With all the attachments I can measure shoulder setback, COAl , and base to ogive. I was tired of getting parallax from holder a caliper.
Always learning from you thanks so very much Been loading pistol for years now learning rifle
I use the oal gauge from hornady, I’m not a precision bench shooter but this system gives moa accuracy for my hunting loads. I try and be careful when pushing the rod not to hard jam into the lands.
i use the hornady tool. i don't chase the la land so it is useful to set the no trespassing line. i tried also pushing the bullet in a normal brass closing the action but at now i prefer the hornady tool
Great video. I use the last method with no probs. Can only add the nail lacquer works better than locktite.
The third method seems the easiest and fastest to do. just load a case with a loose bullet in the chamber and close the bolt. The great thing I can see about this one is that I could quickly do it as I am setting up my press for a loading session for a whole batch of a particular bullet. Then when you change to a different bullet type, quickly do the same
Use a combination of the Loctite and Hornady gauge. Drill out the primer pocket, use Loctite as stated, but push the bullet into the rifling using a small rod through the primer pocket. I use the RCBS Precision Mic, but the results are never consistent.
Sinclair OAL gauge does not get enough love. Takes a bit of math to calc the base to ogive, but results are consistent and no need for a modified case. Great video though!
I use the bolt to seat the bullet into the lands. Reason, when i started loading now over 70 years ago, things like comparators didnt exist. But matches for blackening the bullet did.
A couple of decades ago when I was REALLY into making the best ammo I could, I used Sinclair’s comparator. It’s similar in that it uses the bullet in the chamber, take a measurement. Runs fired case in and take a measurement then subtract the part of the bullet that will be in the neck and measure the over all length. I would prefer to measure off of the olive but their option was full length, bullet seated. I really like that Loctite method for the shooting I do now. Thanks, Jeff
Sinclair’s does sell a comparator that measures off the ogive. Sorry. The auto correct got me on the ogive in the first message. Olive? Really?
Very useful info as I am getting my first bolt action rifle. I already reload, but usually have a recipe for OAL
I use a very similar process as the 3rd one he showed. The only difference is I take a very thin Emery cutting wheel and cut the neck to relieve some of the tension from the size case.
I use the same as you... It's very simple and easy to do. But I usually paint the bullet with a white board pen, just to see if the bullet was pushed out when you extract the case!
The loctite method works like a damn charm. Feel like I owe you money for that tip. I bought an old hall action benchrest rifle chambered in 6ppc .262 neck. However there was zero info on the chamber, gunsmith, and so on and zero items included with the rifle at auction. Barrel was new never fired action/ bolt also never fired so a deal I couldn’t turn down but trying to load for something like that with no info on chamber/seating specs kinda intimidating. That barrel my have been put on the action 30 plus years ago for all I know But having the exact depth for touching the lands helps a lot. Thanks!!
The first time I used the "get it stuck in the lands" method. I had to mortar the round out about seven times. Now, I have the OAL gauge from Hornady. I use my rifles for hunting. MOA or less is fine by me.
You should do a headspace measurement on a fired or resized case and compare it to the modified unfired case. Add the difference for a precise measurement.
I like Eric cortinas method because it gives you a go no go feel for every other method it seemed to much of a difference in measurements
I have been using the Sinclair COL guage now for 7 years and it gives an exact measurement every time and does not require modified cases or anything like that. I have found it to be the way to go. I am a 1000yd benchrest competition shooter and its my way for both my 6bra light gun and 7saum unlimited gun
Thanks for the information and tips I think the lock tite is pretty good
Excellent video.. I was just thinking today on the relationship between the case,bullet and the reamer used.. I knew there had to be some degree of measurement to cut the chamber to get the cartridge to a more precise depth. This changes my perception of ordering a new custom barrel.. Being a Design/Engineer I’m wondering if the bullet,case,reamer can be entered in CAD to find the best potential clearance’s for the setup prior to the cut.. would love to give that a try.
You should went on and showed us how to take those measurements and adjusted the seating die.
love this stuff. you guys gt ,ec, tf are great. curious if the ec, aw, tf methods affect bolt closing pressure or more importantly neck tension, if when chambered the case rotates on the bullet if it bites into the lands? guessing it increases closing pressure, & reduces neck tension? tnx
great information, thanks for this!
I've been using the OAL gauge with modified case since it was called a Stoney Point Gauge.
Very enlightening. Well done. One comment: (at 2:58 timestamp) It was stated that the ogive is being compressed. It. Is VERY difficult (darn near impossible) to compress metal. Metal is actually being moved (i.e., making burrs in the bullet) by contact with the rifling. This point may seem trivial to some, and is often misunderstood by laymen.
I've used the OAL gauge. and the sized case method. Sized case is really easy, especially if you have a neck sizing die.
I use the hornady OAL gauge but when or if I’m trying to get a accurate load on a new cartridge and I don’t have time to wait to order a modified case I use the third method except when the bolt is stiff I will pull out the loaded cartridge and seat the bullet deeper on my press a little at a time till the bolt closes freely. It’s a little time consuming but had great success with it and you don’t get a bullet stuck in the lands.
Havent settled in on which method I like the most, but the bolt method does entail using the actual bolt/plunger, casing, and round.
You should do a video regarding jamming vs jumping the lands and it’s respect to accuracy repeatability and functionality.
Very education. Thanks guys. Much appreciated.
The Eric Cortina method is actually shown on a KZhead video long ago. Look up Alex wheeler's video and watch it. There's things that you need to do before doing the bolt drop test. Things like removing you ejector and firing pin. This method is absolutely the best for determining the exact moment that the bullet comes in contact with the lands. However Eric Cortina did show perhaps a better method , where he doesn't even know where the lands are in relationship to the bullet that I find is either better, or equally useful. You cant look up that video from Eric on KZhead as well under the title Stop chasing the lands. I've used multiple different methods, and use a portion of each for my own reloading practices. I work off of the thought that you can never have to much information. Keeping track of multiple measurements allows you to build empirical data that helps over time to make better informed decisions based on measurements
The shoulder of a case fired from the rifle will come to rest at that exact spot in the barrel. I don't have to have any special tools to perform the loc-tite method! I don't have to take my bolt apart! Just push the style bullet I want to load in, it will set up and viola! Subtract the amount I want that bullet off the rifling, test several depth to find the sweet spot. Write it down for that bullet.
Great video, as always! Thank you!
I have a sacrificial case for each caliber which I cut petals into the neck. I can easily tension a bullet enough so it will just contact the lands but be held enough to keep it in when extracted.