The Gaming Brit video that started this response: • JUST Action Games Codex Entry's Channel: / @codexentry Foxcade's Patreon: / foxcade Foxcade's Twitter: / superfoxcade
Пікірлер
Foxcade v Gaming Brit: Dawn of Just Frames
@elrapido51505 жыл бұрын
elrapido5150 Creative Response
@brandonmuse55325 жыл бұрын
Wtf man that title is so Onimusha
@baroquechevalier85164 жыл бұрын
I feel "spectacle fighter" is a much better descriptor for the genre really, as the game's focus is on the style and is also focused on the depth of the fighting
@jackawaka Жыл бұрын
Ninja Gaiden isnt focused on style, but mastery and high skill ceiling.
@scary54555 ай бұрын
@@scary5455 that is style
@jackawaka5 ай бұрын
I think Vanquish should be a Character Action Shooter!
@massterwushu96995 жыл бұрын
In that case, we need more of these kinds of games because Goddamn that game is so much fun! Still waiting on a sequel or some kind of spiritual successor.
@DinoDave1503 жыл бұрын
@@DinoDave150 try ultrakill its a character action fps!
@Azure9577 Жыл бұрын
@@DinoDave150Warframe
@scary54555 ай бұрын
Well this reminds me of how 1st Doom sprouted the whole new genre of games which used to be called "Doom clones" back then and how broad it is now as FPS
@LilithLonelyHeart5 жыл бұрын
I call them Devilnetta games.
@laughingoctopus85565 жыл бұрын
I call them Bayomaycry, but I like your name too.
@Gnidel5 жыл бұрын
Bayonetta-May-War
@notproductiveproductions35043 жыл бұрын
Bumdumptruckbayomaycryvanquishrevangebce
@tanyaharmon67393 жыл бұрын
Ninja gaidevil
@jexusdomel51943 жыл бұрын
That’s actually an incredible name for them, just like how MetroidVania defines a specific type of 2-D Platformer. Devilnetta defines a specific type of 3-D action game.
@TheDamnWinner2 жыл бұрын
if you ask me all games should just be cancelled
@SONYPVM5 жыл бұрын
I just checked Steam. The suitcase game is called "Assault Spy" and the raptor is "Nelo." Both of them seem to still be in Early Access, though.
@Zero0mtk5 жыл бұрын
@MAGAMan. Z er0 I came here to find out which one the "raptor" one was and I'm so happy it's first comment.
@RuneKatashima5 жыл бұрын
Your survival horror point alone shows the importance of sub genres. Action game is far too vague to describe every game with action.
@SurvivalHorror1005 жыл бұрын
SurvivalHorror100 absolutely. Just like how metal in general is vast thats why we categorize them in sub genres to make it easy to look for interesting bands that share similar style of music. Same thing applies to action games :-)
@megadeath098ajb5 жыл бұрын
The metal example is especially on point, for the reason you gave as well as being an example of what Foxcade warned against: being too exclusive when something doesn't perfectly match one's expectations for the genre. Metal subgenre purism is infuriating, which is part of why artists who aggressively don't give a damn like Devin Townsend are such a delight. (misses the survival horror boom as well)
@jasongarrett7685 жыл бұрын
I honestly felt that this was a really weak point, since horror isn't really a game genre to begin with. It doesn't describe in any way what the gameplay is like, only the aesthetic the game has. Anything from Castlevania to Resident Evil is a horror game. You could design a survival horror game, and then strip it entirely of its horror aesthetic without touching the gameplay, and it would just be a survival game. Meanwhile, in order to make an action game not be an action game, you have to actually alter its gameplay to strip it of action. You could argue that the term action game is too nebulous, but it at least describes the gameplay to some extent, something horror absolutely fails to do.
@JamesNintendoTurd5 жыл бұрын
Whether or not horror describes gameplay is completely irrelevant to the overall point. You said it yourself, "you could argue that the term action game is too nebulous", thats literally what he is arguing.
@benparent98645 жыл бұрын
@@benparent9864 It's been some time since I watched the video (and won't watch again right now), but I seem to remember that he made some point about how action is too nebulous and needs additional descriptors because horror (at least he provided it as an example) does it as well. My point is that action isn't as nebulous as horror, since horror is uniquely an aesthetic descriptor, while action does offer some hint to the nature of the gameplay. Which is why I said it's a weak point to make, since you can't really bring up the comparison like that. I didn't even say that the video as a whole was wrong, just that that point in particular was weak from my perspective.
@JamesNintendoTurd5 жыл бұрын
Nicely done argument; people often forget that genres are made for people to navigate/understand/find works of media of similar types that they might like rather than to argue about what things are on the internet.
@zaphero55185 жыл бұрын
Okay, now that we've got that settled, new debate: Poptarts count as sandwiches. Discuss.
@CodexEntry5 жыл бұрын
Codex Entry DO NOT BRING YOUR HERESY HERE
@Yenz304155 жыл бұрын
Chaotic fact
@thirdeye96985 жыл бұрын
THEY'RE TOO DAMN SUGARY, LOOK AT MY TEETH, THEY'RE DYING in seriousness tho they're pretty good as a treat
@SprinkleBunn5 жыл бұрын
Obviously the answer is no. XD
@martinn26505 жыл бұрын
they are ravioli you buffoon
@inanimateobject78945 жыл бұрын
With the mention of Sonic and its end of level rating system, I can remember with Sonic Adventure 2 it introduced a similar DMC like worded Style system for chaining homing attacks, grinds, successfully timed pole spinning moves and Light Speed Dashes. Also funnily enough both DMC1 and SA2 came out the same year, but with SA2 predating DMC by a few months. Maybe some shared ideas between friends from the two companies meeting up on lunch breaks or just pure coincidence who knows, but it is still pretty cool to look and think "oh wow parallels"
@DemonDethchase5 жыл бұрын
I agree with both you and GamingBrit to certain extents. It's a shame that most people need to act like asses and flame one of you two.
@wcamicase_gaming5 жыл бұрын
Real talk
@saimalishahid14064 жыл бұрын
I don't understand people who don't like/want people to refer to these games as character action when they will talk about souls games and how things are souls clones. If you take everything as action then souls games are just action games too if we can't have our sub genre that just makes talking about the very specific type of gameplay easier then you can't have yours either.
@LittleWingedKuribo5 жыл бұрын
Because the cornerstone of character action is good combat. Meaning, you could excuse games with worse combat by saying they're not character action. Well, that, and it's stupidly broad. It's nice as a colloquialism, but that's about it.
@Peasham5 жыл бұрын
That's not a good comparison imo, I don't consider "Souls Clones" a genuine genre. Code Vein, The Surge, Salt and Sanctuary are similar, but they're still just action-rpg's to me.
@MerlautZone5 жыл бұрын
Because souls clones is a more assholish term that just has laced in elitism and skepticism like keeping on with "doom-clones"
@DatAsuna5 жыл бұрын
A lot of Souls fans dislike the term Soul Clone and Souls-Like. They have been used to lump in games that obly have surface level similarities or aren't good games in general. Just because you use a bonfire checkpoint system and combine money and exp into the same currency does bot make you a Souls game.
@aureateseigneur53174 жыл бұрын
I don’t call them “souls-clones”, I call them “'running around the boss and wait for an opening' simulators”
@notproductiveproductions35043 жыл бұрын
I'm so happy someone made a video properly discussing and elaborating on what roughly defines a character action games. Thanks for the great video.
@danielmesri57415 жыл бұрын
Thanks to this video, I now know the existence of Nelo and Assault Spy. How on Earth did those games slip by me? Anyway, this was a great insight video. Always love watching anyone and everyone's view on this somewhat undefined genre.
@SetnaroX5 жыл бұрын
I wonder about that too. I instantly wishlisted them and will wait until they leave early access.
@Gnidel5 жыл бұрын
That was me, too! I see these cool and unique-looking CUHRAYZIE GAMEZ onscreen, and I have no idea what they're called! I gotta play these sometime. They look rad. And hey, this is the first person I've ever seen acknowledge the existence of Fairy Bloom Freesia. I had completely forgotten about that game.
@lugbzurg89875 жыл бұрын
Assault Spy gets a huge recommendation from me, been playing since launch and rough edges from Early Access aside, it pretty much nails everything that makes games like DMC great
@AmanojakuPenguin5 жыл бұрын
Same thing happened to me with God Hand, didn’t even know the game existed until late 2017 from watching GamingBrit’s channel, I still can’t believe it passed me up for like 11 years but I’m glad I found out about them eventually
@xXIzZy120Xx5 жыл бұрын
@@lugbzurg8987 here's someone else who enjoyed Freesia. Really deserves more love
@crossgamer22614 жыл бұрын
I may be late, but I started watching your vids today, I've loved the dmc series for such a long time, watching your videos made me happy, I really enjoy your tone of trying to take in every opinion and then forming your own by watching/playing the thing. Keep up the good work!
@SprinkleBunn5 жыл бұрын
This was a great video. I agree with a lot of the points you brought up. This is one of my favorite sub-genres and I for one hope it continues to evolve so that one day maybe more people will fall in love with these games like we have.
@jthe1eyedgamer3325 жыл бұрын
“Kamiya Simulators” that’s a new one...
@Comkill1175 жыл бұрын
Whatever people call this genre I just want to say it's my absolute favorite. The top of the heap being Ninja Gaiden. Ninja Gaiden 4 when? Oh and Devil May Cry 5 looks good too!
@MadDragonify5 жыл бұрын
A well done video. Enjoyed listening to your thoughts on this genre!
@JimmyGoodYT5 жыл бұрын
I'm glad that "just action games" being a very reductive attitude was pointed out. I mean, I'm a metal head, so I'm very used to the 'Forrest Gump Shrimp Recipes" thing in metal sub-genres (proto-classic-heavy metal, thrash, death, black, blackened death, stoner, doom, prog, avant-garde, circus, symphonic, gothic, black'n'roll, black-thrash, melo-death, viking, pirate, nu-metal, rap-metal, techno-metal, technideath, industrial-metal, then you got your "cores", metal core, grindcore, deathcore, porngrind...and all this ignoring the rainbow of punk/metal hybrid stuff) Imagine a world where "It's all just metal". Shit would all blend together and would lack identity despite being something separate and organized. I wouldn't recommend Deicide to an Iron Maiden fan and I wouldn't expect a Metallica fan to be into Carach Angren when I first play it for them. Point is, these labels are here to give identity to our tastes, so we can seek out more of what we like. and personally, I use "stylish action" as the name, but I know what's meant when people say the others, like "spectacle fighter" or "character action". And knowing what's meant by that is all that's really needed.
@marther38985 жыл бұрын
Mar Ther I came to a very similar conclusion thanks to using metal as a reference. You can't just say "really good metal," as the elements that are present are mixed and emphasized in different ways to bring different sub-genres. As much as people argue this over metal and video games, you can't just parse the good games from the bad games when there's bound to be clear flavors that you hate and love due to personal preference and values. As much as people may raise eyebrows over sub-genres, they help me find new things when I want a certain kind of experience.
@weskerpawnch5 жыл бұрын
How? If you have a label for every type of metal, that means every type of metal loses its own identity, and is shuffled in with the rest. If a band tried to do something unique, but some fuck-off band from god knows where did it similarly, they're just be grouped in the same category. That's the antithesis of uniqueness, being like something else.
@Peasham5 жыл бұрын
Furthermore, colloquialisms are colloquialisms for a reason. Meaning, they're not well-defined enough to be definitions. "Knowing what someone means" isn't enough for a definition.
@Peasham5 жыл бұрын
and over-generalization is even worse for that sense of uniqueness. like i said, if it was "all just metal" or even just "good metal", then new things wouldnt be happening at all, and even if those new things happen, putting them into an umbrella term of just "metal" ignores what makes a band stand out. the best way to do that is to take what we know already and mix it with something we might not know yet. and that subgenre doesnt stop there; it can now mix with other subgenres (Immortal, Mayhem, and Darkthrone are just black metal, thanks to the influence of Venom and Celtic Frost. Cannibal Corpse, Deicide, and Six Feet Under are just death metal, thanks to the influence of Possessed and Death[the band]. Then a band like Behemoth comes around years later and melds those two, popularizing "blackened death metal." Without the presence of the first two, the third would have never happened at all). these subgenres exist to recognize and organize new things so the listener can seek out more of what they already like. Imagine this: Black Sabbath is a metal band. Slayer is also a metal band. Atreyu is metal. Immortal is metal. Winds of Plague is metal. Meshuggah is metal. Korn is metal. Linkin Park is metal. Carach Angren is metal. But none of those bands sound REMOTELY alike. Their only common ground is "high-gain guitar music", so we say Black Sabbath is heavy metal, Slayer is thrash, Atreyu is metal-core, Immortal is black metal, Winds of Plague is death-core, Meshuggah is prog-metal (or proto-djent), KoRn is nu-metal, Linkin Park is (was?) rap-metal, and Carach Angren is symphonic black metal. It's about labeling the things for what separates them from each other, not about what makes them all the same. Calling it just "metal" just puts all of them into 1 boat when each set of qualities deserves their own vessel. And if other bands decide to follow well-established formulas, then those bands are considered "unoriginal". Case in point; Trivium, Avenged Sevenfold, and Five Finger Death Punch. in games' case, Darksiders and Okami were just considered 'zelda clones', when Okami definitely deserves more credit than that. Darksiders....not so much. this is why a consensus needs to be made and why saying "They're just action games with really good combat" is an idiotic claim to me. Why the fuck would anyone play an action game with crap combat? Cuz thats what its implying; these specific games have really good combat, everything else in the "action" file doesn't have good combat. It's ignoring what sets DMC3 apart from Dynasty Warriors and puts subjectivity into what's supposed to be an objective category. this is why half the games ever created in the history of all games can easily just be called "action-adventure"; as if Zelda and Full Throttle have to share a file-folder, regardless of OBVIOUS differences. May as well lump Witcher 2 in there with them, then. Or does being an "RPG" put it into the same boat as Final Fantasy and Bravely Default? What about Breath of the Wild? Is that an "RPG" because of how similar to Skyrim and Witcher 3 it is? And then, what's Dark Souls? Hack-n-slash or RPG? Is Dark Souls actually an "open-world" game, too? If so, does that mean Dark Souls and Far Cry 3 are part of the same genre? Why did the term "Souls-like" happen for Bloodbourne, The Surge, Salt & Sanctuary, Hollow Knight, Dead Cells, and Lords of the Fallen? Aren't they all "just action games with really difficult combat"? Is Cuphead a Souls-like, by the same token? No, it's side-scrolling shooter, like Contra. When a collection of games all share the same mechanics (a grading system, deep and expressive combat, fast pace, arcade-style stage design, and hi-octane cutscene spectacle), then they need to have a term that distinguishes them from the others in that "action game" cabinet. Thus, we need to come to an agreement as to what they should be called, cuz this subgenre has Wonderful 101, DMC, Bayonetta, and Veiwtiful Joe all sharing a house together in the neighborhood of "action games". I prefer "stylish action", cuz "hack-n-slash" and just plain "action games" denies those games their respective credit and identity. TLDR; If you think emerging sub-genres DON'T provide games a sense of identity, I think you're a fool. To agree with the idea of "just action games" is far more generalizing and pidgeon-holes games that deserve more credit than that. By that token, Vanquish, Spec Ops: The Line, and Gears of War are all just basically the same game. But they aren't, are they?
@marther38985 жыл бұрын
I love how you can't see the obvious hypocrisy there. If generalizing a game with a genre makes it lose its identity, why does generalizing it in a sub.genre not? Why can't we, oh I don't know, review and analyse games for what they are, without having to label them anything? Because in the end, they're all blanket statements, since you're only giving games the "character action" title based on your feelings, not objectivity. A colloquialism at its finest, but a definition? Not in a million years. Also, your examples of loose definitions are horrible. Full Throttle is a point-and-click, Witcher is an action RPG, FF is a turn-based RPG, BOTW is open world third person action adventure, which indeed does make it similar to the Witcher, but not to Skyrim, which is first person. And now I know you're being intellectually dishonest, since FC3 is an open world FPS, not a hack and slash. All of these have actual definitions that you can apply to them objectively. You know, without feels. A first person game is objectively first person, so is third person, so is over the shoulder, so is isometric, 2D, 3D, and so on and so forth. And you were a hypocrite again, since you said Cuphead isn't Dark Souls because of its perspective, yet lumped in 101 and Joe into the same genre. If a game's perspective is enough to differentiate it in terms of genre, then why does the same not hold true for the character action genre? Like, do you actually think about the things you write? Also, no, we really don't need to come to an agreement, and we never will. The genre you're arguing for is based on games "feeling" the same, while not being objectively the same. Mostly because God Hand, Joe, and DMC are, objectively, completely different games, but because they're kinda like each other in some mechanics, they're character action. And that "kinda like" is because you look cool and the game tells you you're cool. And coolness is subjective beyond all belief. The very basis of the definition makes it ineligible to be a definition. What it makes it, however, is a colloquialism. And is just as relevant as one.
@Peasham5 жыл бұрын
This is pretty much the first time I hear this term. I just checked the wikipedia pages for Bayonetta and DMC and they are all just called hack n slash games. Weird.
@The_RedVIII5 жыл бұрын
I've always heard them called hack n slash games.
@dr.gokiburi5 жыл бұрын
First I’ve heard it called “character action”. Also just called them hack n slash. The term character action kind of sounds made up.
@muffetmissulena65405 жыл бұрын
That's the problem with subgenre titles not becoming popular; those who prefer games of that type can be seen as elitists of the main genre and you can struggle to find games of similar types, often defaulting to games by the same creators and in the same series. How many people have heard of the Devil May Cry/God of War series, and Clover/Platinum Games, but not Otogi 1/2, Shinobi PS2, Blood Will Tell, Ninja Gaiden 1/2/3, Nelo, Assault Spy, Nightshade, Bujingai, Chaos Legion, Gungrave (Overdose), The Sword of Etheria, and Mortal Combat: Shaolin Monks? How many assume a game of that type is bad if they've never heard of them before?
@zaphero55185 жыл бұрын
I only heard it through gamebrit and later fox. I believed it was a new term .. then I looked it up and saw it was used since at least 2014 I hope this term will never go mainstream. It's so stupid and says nothing (like Moba - i remember people calling Quake 3 moba - becauste its an online arena...) It only helps to confuse people - I'm so sick of misusing words, so I would rather choose another term style'n'slash or something like that .. or outright DMC-clone :P
@Superschokokeks5 жыл бұрын
Hack n slash isn't used that much on the core communities because people used the term for at least 3 completely different genres. Diablo-style ARPGs (usually called looters or Diablo-likes too), Dynasty Warrior style 3D beat em ups and action games like DMC. To differentiate them the communities came up with different names and character action is the one which sticked the most with these kind of action games.
@welcometovalhalla28845 жыл бұрын
13:48 SOMEONE MENTIONED MY GAME! IT'S NOT IRRELEVANT! AHHHH!
@RuneKatashima5 жыл бұрын
You stole my words
@jino1394 жыл бұрын
I marked out when Codex turned up. Love both your channels!
@PlagueInjected5 жыл бұрын
Timestamps: 1) Combat Depth 4:50 2) Perfection/Mastery Systems 6:22 3) Faster Pace 9:18 4) Arcade-style Level Design 10:50
@tasoganedude3 жыл бұрын
Overall I think that the video is great at explaining what sub-genres are and why they exist AND since Character action game is the name that has been flowing around recently, I think I can agree with it. Again, great video.
@emmanuelmondesir13145 жыл бұрын
I wonder where FFXV fits in this aspect then? A lot of ppl brush over its combat bc of how simple it may be at first glance, but surprisingly has depth with its weapon switching, warp strikes, and airstep combos as well as looking pretty stylish
@Kirusei3 жыл бұрын
Never thought about the connection between my love of DMC/Character Action games and Souls-like games until this video. It makes perfect sense now that you brought it up tho
@YetiCoolBrother5 жыл бұрын
Finally able to watch my wi fi went on the fritz as soon as you uploaded
@suhiljugroop51795 жыл бұрын
You’re not locked in there with them . They’re locked in there with you - Rorschach foxcade
@swordguy12435 жыл бұрын
Yeah dude, that's a great scene
@burnoutberry4 жыл бұрын
13:41 Has the list of games used
@xMasterSparku5 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much
@majeedmamah74574 жыл бұрын
Another great video, nice colab btw
@zeromailss5 жыл бұрын
People say subgenres can't be based on a few games, but metroidvania is literally named after only two.
@jexusdomel51943 жыл бұрын
Why are we still here... just to suffer?
@RUUGOOLE5 жыл бұрын
Live for suffer. Life for revenge. Know your life. Comes to an end
@kuronoroux88645 жыл бұрын
I just recently kinda got into the Character Action Hack N' Slash subgenre because I've been a big fan of the western hack n' slashes like God of War and Darksiders and Dante's Inferno for a long time. I started with Bayonetta and Just recently started playing the Devil May Cry franchise and started with DMC3. I LOVE the game and I'm planning on diving deeper into the franchise. So far from the fandom I've heard 1 is good, avoid 2 and the remake like the plague, 4 was ok, and 3 and 5 were the best.
@cameronb71613 жыл бұрын
I just love that when you talk about fighting enemies in these games you say “styling on them”.
@ryanofheartz46115 жыл бұрын
I personally use the term "fast-paced action" or "hyper-action" when I describe these kind of hack n' slash games to friends
@MrJerryUltra100005 жыл бұрын
Really, I think the truth of the matter is that video game genre definitions are a trainwreck overall. I'm a believer in the argument that genres should be based on core appeal, and then branch outward. The existing genre definition is more based on a superficial description of the game, which sometimes works ok (Most people describe portal as a puzzle game before calling it an FPS or a platformer), but also sometimes misfires (the core appeal of Yakuza varies person to person, since some people are in it for the crime drama, some people are in it for the brawler, and some are in it for the toybox -- and you can easily ignore whichever two pieces you don't like). That being said, good luck convincing the entire gaming public to stop calling everything an action-adventure game!
@ImpossibleAsymptote5 жыл бұрын
Interesting video, I was always confused on what character action games are but this does help narrow things down. I guess you do have a point of different genres. I hate looter shooters but me not calling them "real shooters" is a bit disingenuous of me.
@civilwarfare1015 жыл бұрын
thanks for giving the wonderful 101 some. love. that game is criminally underrated
@teero1215 жыл бұрын
Love all your videos on this. Definitely gonna pick up Nier after finishing DMC 5's plat.
@jhon14065 жыл бұрын
You wouldn't think that many people would have a problem with the idea of a way of describing games, but here we are. Loved your take on it, lovely video!
@Daligga5 жыл бұрын
Now i need a Kamiya simulator.
@luxiemg5 жыл бұрын
The block button on Twitter is a great Kamiya simulator
@jonathand.40883 жыл бұрын
Thank you for telling me about Nelo and Assault Spy - didn't know about those ;-)
@MikeCoronaNY5 жыл бұрын
Really great video. The character action genre wasn't really one I was familiar with until a while ago, to me these games were just hack and slash or beat em ups but now I think I understand what makes it it's own genre of games, one that doesn't have to be restricted by what traditionally makes it a thing. I mean I'm still going to harp on what makes an rpg an rpg but I definitely agree that genres should aim to evolve and be more inclusive than. Also you god of war response video too lol, your genuine thoughts on the game would be interesting though.
@BillBilliamson5 жыл бұрын
As much as u love these types of games, I'm really surprised u haven't done a retrospective for Metal Gear Rising Revengeance. I'd LOVE to see that, as would many of your other viewers. U covered Bayonetta which was done by Platinum Games, so it's only fair to cover MGR:R. I don't mean to sound like an entitled douche, I am just saying, it'd be awesome if u covered it! And also, thank u for all of the amazing content u have made so far. I just found ur channel today, and I've been watching for hours! Great work, and pls, keep em coming!
@iiisixstringiii82855 жыл бұрын
I do have plans to do one in the future, hopefully in the next few months but Bayo 2 would come first. I also want to get up to speed on my MGS lore so I can do it proper justice. And thank you! :)
@Foxcade5 жыл бұрын
Yummy yummy foxcade video in my tummy
@Ghettojaku5 жыл бұрын
All arguing about semantics aside, thank you SO MUCH for introducing me to Assault Spy. I've Played Ninja Gaiden Black, 2 and 3, Metal Gear Rising, DMC 3 and 4, Bayonetta 1 and 2 all to death and have been DYING for a new character action game. This is my absolute favorite genre of video games and it's so niche, nobody other than the DMC guys and Platinum games really ever makes them. Sucks that Assault Spy is only in early access, but it's super fun and I can't wait for the full release. I'll definitely check out Nelo too.
@Busterbalz5 жыл бұрын
Don't think that I missed that excellent use of Persona 4 music.
@PizzaDad4 жыл бұрын
What's the name of that game where you fight with the suitcase shown at 1:15? Edit: Found it. Games are listed at 13:41. It's Assault Spy and in early access, so that means I gotta wait for it to get out before I try it.
@adelin0815 жыл бұрын
I think the real problem with 'character action' as a genre that TGBS touched on is that gameplay depth is the only element shared by all games that are commonly accepted as part of the genre. God hand doesn't have a scoring system (the level system is somewhat comparable but it's disabled on hard mode anyway) and I personally wouldn't describe Ninja Gaiden's combat system as being particularly style orientated but they're considered part of the genre for their technical combat systems. I think separating the games with the deepest combat mechanics into their own subgenre of action undermines what those games do uniquely well and justifies a lack of gameplay depth in other hack and slash/beat em'up ups, games which are just as combat focused but with much lower skill ceilings.
@MrGav11915 жыл бұрын
But Ninja Gaiden 2 is so fucking stylish II would say it practically defines the genre as much as DMC3 and Bayonetta
@2000Doriyas5 жыл бұрын
Jordan It runs at 10 frames a second during combat, it doesnt help define anything but how not to make a sequel.
@aureateseigneur53175 жыл бұрын
Jordan I agree it looks stylish in a way that many other games don't but it doesn't seem to emphasize stylish play to the extent that something like DMC does. NG's mechanics seem more conducive to quick kills and ruthless efficiency in combat rather than freeform combos, such as obliteration technique and UTs.
@MrGav11915 жыл бұрын
I completely understand that perspective, I just mean that once you begin to excel at the game you pretty much learn "how" to be stylish at it because it teaches you how to be proficient and learn the enemy patterns. It provides so many different moves / weapons / options to be stylish like shuriken juggles and cancels that it's begging you to play stylish even if you can only do that on the lower difficulties for a while, but it would be so great if it did have the style meter like DMC 3 / 4 to actually incentivize variety instead of it being just for personal satisfaction to pull cool shit off like kick juggling, combo flexing etc. LTDR it has such satisfying physics and mechanics with a huge amount of moves and abilities that work together that it deserves to be played for stylish reasons as much as DMC despite not incentivizing it directly.
@2000Doriyas5 жыл бұрын
That rarely happened beyond the staircase for me, it's one of the most satisfying games I've ever played and I encourage people to dig into it regardless of it's flaws, just like DMC 3 and God Hand.
@2000Doriyas5 жыл бұрын
Video was great as usual. I saw some new games to try.
@brandonmuse55325 жыл бұрын
I really enjoyed this video! I was looking for a definition and this really helped! A lot of the hallmarks of the genre made me think a cool alternative name could be Colosseum Fighter or Gladiator Action game: Gladiators are locked in a room with and entertainment and spectacle is a high focus. Speed doesn’t really qualify though…
@malhawkeye64272 ай бұрын
It's very weird, in France we just call "beat them all" games like DMC or Bayonetta And "Hack and slash" is for games like Diablo or path of exile And that's it !
@louismartin76085 жыл бұрын
Imagine if an anime fighter uses those mechanics
@notproductiveproductions35043 жыл бұрын
I don't see anything wrong with that term. It's just like the "metroidvania". Those games were basically side scrollers with deep exploration. Some gamers doesn't even know what that means, especially the younger ones. I always call the NBA2K series as "shitty game" and nobody gives a flying f.
@riomigz13055 жыл бұрын
I dont think that's a valid comparison since "metroidvania" does actually refer to other existing games which would make sense to atleast the people who've played metroid or castlevania. Character action doesn't give any hint as to what kind of game were talking about. My problem with terms like character action or other terms like spectacle fighter is that people will use it as a scapegoat for having lackluster combat. I saw this alot with the new God of War. When people critisized the games' combat people would use excuse of "it's not a character action game" as if thats an excuse for mediocre combat.
@fls1285 жыл бұрын
I really didn't expect to see Chaos Legion on this video. What a pleasant surprise
@Neolabfg5 жыл бұрын
I’m quite surprised you didn’t mention the Darksiders series or Legend of Zelda series.
@charlessmith68695 жыл бұрын
Hack n Slash.
@rohandante Жыл бұрын
I will agree with GamingBrit on one thing: Character Action is a weird name for this genre. Like, why "Character Action"? What does that even mean? Action with Character? I much prefer Stylish Action, or CUHRAYZEE Games.
@cillbipher26135 жыл бұрын
spectacle fighter there you go
@Jay169982 жыл бұрын
I believe back in the day with DMC3 or 4 the label on the Japanese covers labeled it Stylish Action. With games like Monster Hunter getting the label Hunting Action which I find much more appropriate than calling it an Action RPG.
@SakuraGraffiti5 жыл бұрын
It actually dates back to DMC1's Japanese release and is on the box of many other games before and after than era. That said Chaos Legion (not played but still) is called "Emotional Action" on the box and I wouldn't rush to call every description that Capcom or Namco say a new thing worth applying more broadly. On Namco, they have new names for each Tales of game with Berseria being... "RPG of Discovering your Own Reason to Live". Thematically, they tend to be spot on but mechanically I wouldn't say it helps someone pick which Tales of game to play at all.
@thelastgogeta4 жыл бұрын
Action is very interesting in Japan, because technically platformers like Mario are considered action games.
@thomasffrench36395 ай бұрын
So for people who still think Character Action is a dumb term, imagine explaining something like Hollow Knight without using the term "Metroidvania". "Hollow Knight is a platformer." So it's like Mario? "No, there's an emphasis on exploration, you get upgrades that help you when you revisit an area." Cool, like Mega Man X! "No, but everything's connected." Like Metroid? "Yeah." Why didn't you just say 'Metroidvania'? Even if you don't like the name, using a label for a collection of games that all contain similar elements makes things so much easier. Specificity helps. As teen, I had to look up "hack and slash games more like Devil May Cry than Dynasty Warriors", when now I can just say "Character Action games" and people know what I'm talking about.
@Erk12345675 жыл бұрын
Furthermore "Action Games with really good combat" is completely subjective to TGB's tastes and preferences. I know just as many people who would apply that term to Soulslikes or Muso games, regardless of whether people here would agree with them. You NEED specificity when talking about a genre of games, and Fox has accurately laid out some criteria for what makes this subgenre a subgenre.
@Erk12345675 жыл бұрын
So what you're saying is, every game should be categorized as every other game that's like it, but came before it. At what point does this categorization stop? When it's convenient? Also, if something's like Metroid, it doesn't make it a Metroidvania. If something's like the Castlevania games that tried to emulate Metroid, that's a Metroidvania. I could even dismantle and disagree with your main point easily, I love it.
@Peasham5 жыл бұрын
Peasham I mean, the whole point is that a subgenre is more about a collection of shared elements than everything resembling the original work. Pink Floyd has more in common with King Crimson than The Beatles, so it's Prog Rock. Alternatively, Queen did not consider themselves prog, but their earlier albums had elements of Prog, which can aid in selling those albums to a King Crimson fan. Viewtiful Joe has an in-depth scoring system reminiscent and a shop to buy moves, so while it's ultimately a puzzle platformer/beat em up, you could describe it as having Character Action elements and you'd be telling the truth. A subgenre isn't this strict label that a game has to fall under because it's like this one game (though some can), it's used by communities to share games that are similar enough in nature to warrant a comparison. And if you could actually dismantle my argument, you should've done it instead of jerking yourself off in the last sentence.
@Erk12345675 жыл бұрын
Oh its a Metroidvania? So it has math based RPG mechanics? Oh it doesnt? Hmm...It has a laege inventory system! No? My skills are directly influnced by the death of my enemies ala the Soul system? No...doesn't have that either? Well wtf kind of Metroidvania is this?!?!?!?! Hollow Knight is a 2d Open World Platformer. Didn't need to use Metroidvania at all to explain what Hollow Knight is. I dunno man, read the dictionary and learn to articulate better maybe?
@aureateseigneur53175 жыл бұрын
@@aureateseigneur5317 okay, so the examples contrived, the point I'm trying to make is that fans of these types of games are going to know exactly what you mean
@Erk12345675 жыл бұрын
Whether or not you consider it a genre or sub-genre I think the distinction is very important. Calling something an action game is too broad. I've been playing Resident Evil 6 a lot lately. If someone asked me to describe what Resident Evil 6 was like I'd need a little bit more than action game.
@Brandon_Powell5 жыл бұрын
Or maybe you can just spend a couple more seconds describing the game and what other games it's similar too, instead of trying to pick one word that defines it perfectly.
@bennymountain15 жыл бұрын
Gumshon Highly trained Special Forces officers have to fight zombies and other such mutants after an outbreak of a deadly virus. Can you tell me which Resident Evil I'm describing?
@Brandon_Powell5 жыл бұрын
Adam J. Harper When did this go from being a discussion about semantics and sub-genres to a critique of the Resident Evil series. I was describing both Resident Evil 1 and 6. The S.T.A.R.S team fight against zombies and mutants after the outbreak of the t-virus and the B.S.A.A and other government agents fight against zombies and other mutants after the outbreak of the C virus. The description was applicable to both games. The genres are third person survival horror and action third person shooter. We could argue endlessly over Which Resident Evil games are good and which are bad but that would only cloud the topic at hand. And quite frankly I'm tired of that argument anyway.
@Brandon_Powell5 жыл бұрын
Brandon Powell No, it's a third person shooter. That describes it perfectly, since it really is like a generic TPS.
@Peasham5 жыл бұрын
@Brandon Powell: Well, with your description, the first game I thought of was Operation: Racoon City. WHY!?
@lugbzurg89875 жыл бұрын
I would say aggressive rather than defensive gameplay is a key feature of the genre. For example dodge offset in Bayonetta allows you to combine your defense with your offense so there's very little time when you are not attacking enemies. Compare that to something like Dark souls that has several mechanics like the stamina system that encourage much more defensive gameplay if you want to stay alive.
@potato6735 жыл бұрын
What about Ninja Gaiden Black which is a very fast paced defense oriented action game?>
@aureateseigneur53175 жыл бұрын
You hit the nail exactly on point
@megadeath098ajb5 жыл бұрын
"Fighting games are just 2-D action games."
@ImaTroper5 жыл бұрын
Megaman Zero is a stylish character action, change my mind
@TheExFatal5 жыл бұрын
I agree. Just like Dust an Elysian Tale is. But Guacameele isn't because combat is more puzzle-based. Change my mind too.
@Gnidel5 жыл бұрын
I've found my people
@tanyaharmon67393 жыл бұрын
Nice vid. When you come back, hope to see some more good *and diverse* content
@mediam39575 жыл бұрын
In my honest opinion "Stylish Action" is more a modifier that can be placed onto existing games. It means very in-depth combat where the style comes from you getting the hang of the system, and using everything at your disposal. Difficulty isn't artificial - rather, it's a matter of "Git gud or get stomped."
@anhilliator12 жыл бұрын
And doesn't sound bland, generic, reductive and stupid as Character Action.
@ilucasz Жыл бұрын
What is a fellow Raven/lynx doing in character action territory
@Azure9577 Жыл бұрын
@@Azure9577 Ah, I see you've noticed my profile picture! A Raven must hone their craft in all fields if they want to stay ahead.
@anhilliator1 Жыл бұрын
So basically you will going to made up a new genres for every game that has a slight difference to other games with similar or samey mechanics?
@IlSH22 жыл бұрын
That is a sub-genre, but the whole video is just a pretentious excuse for a stupid name of something that already had bigger genres that could classify them well. Like Hack'n Slash, Beat'em Up, Third Person Shooter, etc.
@ilucasz Жыл бұрын
ive been playing “character action” games since ninja gaiden 2 and never heard the term “character action” until this year
@y2kjetters3175 жыл бұрын
The term has been around since 2008ish. The reason is that people want free form combat games, and that is what Character action is. Ninja Gaiden would be hack in slash, but Bayonetta as brawler shootemup and dmc as hacknslash shootemup. But they all have free form combat. Character action sums up entirely the aspect of these games that players want to play. It's like comparing Fzero to Mario Kart. One is dead because the other provides the distinctive properties players want, but to just call them both racing would diminish what players are looking for. If you like Mario Kart, you might also enjoy Extreme G.
@furyberserk5 жыл бұрын
Honestly, I remember the original DMC being described as a stylish action game, I think by Kamiya himself if I remember right. Hack & Slash was originally referred to for Diablo styled games. Honestly, I think stylish action fits better.
@agt_pendergast88995 жыл бұрын
These are some pretty good points to define games such as DMC or Bayo. Now when I play games in the future, I think I’ll be able to critique them better.
@shinygekkouga525 жыл бұрын
man after my own heart, first one i know to talk about the difficulty comparison between dmc and souls games
@alikhavari42505 жыл бұрын
Foxcade, you Canadian?
@Darkslayer2895 жыл бұрын
Yup. Sorry...
@Foxcade5 жыл бұрын
Maple Syrup is better than British Tea! And I'm British!
@songoku93485 жыл бұрын
Dedo Demi thank you so much for that insult it's gold
@ratty39855 жыл бұрын
I heard that about and I knew immediately
@Ironboundmonk5 жыл бұрын
0:26 "aboot" :3
@laughingoctopus85565 жыл бұрын
Aren't character action just hack and slash games?
@Ranexer Жыл бұрын
Nope. You can play character action games without sharp weapons, like Bayonetta.
@scary54555 ай бұрын
I like that the Ghost Rider game got a little mention,wish the game got more love,its so underrated
@Num13Roxas5 жыл бұрын
I quite enjoy the term “spectacle fighter”, that’s the term I’d use
@dandelyon27965 жыл бұрын
What's the game at 12:10? Looks sick af lol
@jesjay255 жыл бұрын
you've probably seen the whole video by know but anyways. the game is called "nelo" and is currently in early access on steam
@teero1215 жыл бұрын
teero121 yeah he mentioned it later but the game looks great! I think I'ma pick it up later this week
@jesjay255 жыл бұрын
teero121 but thanks tho!
@jesjay255 жыл бұрын
sure no problem. im really interested in nelo, as well but imma wait till its finished
@teero1215 жыл бұрын
it looks interesting but there is to much shit on the screen
@nomercy89895 жыл бұрын
this was such a well thought out video.this comment section is killing me tho lmao like wth did anyone watch the video?
@marknc75465 жыл бұрын
I did. And I can tell you that while this was a good video, the topic that was the main focal point is something that should not be touched with a ten foot pole.
@Dan4Neo5 жыл бұрын
@@Dan4Neo I disagree. I think encouraging discussion and debate is needed
@tanyaharmon67393 жыл бұрын
THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT
@bennymountain15 жыл бұрын
Great video, well spoken
@Sentay05 жыл бұрын
So, if a character action game is based on a combat system with a lot of depth, why not call it something like "Technical Action games"?
@yt49ab6p55 жыл бұрын
That's actually kind of a neat term! But I think the point that a lot of people critical of the existing name are missing is that genre descriptors are under no obligation to be descriptive. The term "RPG" is extremely vague if taken literally, and there are certainly people here and there who misuse that descriptor -- a fair amount of people and industry-focused publications label Zelda games as RPGs, of all things -- but generally speaking you know the sort of elements to expect if you're told that a game's an "RPG". Genre titles doesn't have to be literal as long as there's a shared understanding of what they're labeling.
@Karuvitomsk5 жыл бұрын
Because "Technical Action" doesn't describe the speed and emphasis on style we want "Character Action" games to have
@magicno25 жыл бұрын
Some people call it that. Some call them DMC-likes, because it's the earliest notable originator. The names of genres and subgenres are often unintuitive and could be greatly improved upon (soulslike, metroidvania, roguelike), but so long as they do their job, they're fine. Just don't take them literally, or you end up with crap like "RPGs? But you Play a Role in every Game!".
@alseid87095 жыл бұрын
+Joey Robles And character action denotes speed and style how?
@Dan4Neo5 жыл бұрын
@@Dan4Neo Since making this comment, I officially sided with Codex Entry and now believe that Character Action games are games that are deemed Character Action games by the Character Action game community. Solid definitions are mostly impossible since everyone in the Character Action game community has different solid definitions on what makes games Character Action
@magicno25 жыл бұрын
I think the main problem is when subgenres are used as a justification to have one specific part of a game be more or less heavily criticised. While describing a game it is helpful to have fast and precise ways to identify them in time and space, but when one has to analyse a game critically I believe it serves better to make a step back from the genre/subgenre definition, look at the mechanics and system that are inside a game a analyse them one by one to see how well they work and how well they serve their purpose in the game. This is also the context in which TGBS video was made, whic was basically a reaction to people that were livid to him for saying how some design decisions in the new God of War restricted how well you can play it as an action game (close fixed camera and no jump for example). Their argument was that since "it is not a character action game anymore" then combat mechanics should not be judged in the same way...which is bs to me, a system has to be judged for how well it serves to the game purpose and that's it. Those were badly implemented systems for the type of action they wanted to go for in the new God of War. Similar systems served very well in different action games, such as God Hand and Hellblade, as those games were designed around either closere and less numerous encounters and a reduced visual spatial awareness that needed to be complemented by sound cues...sorry for the rant. So, yeah, subgenres are good for description of a game, I agree.
@eliamagrinelli5175 жыл бұрын
I opened this video hoping Foxcade would address this issue. I feel like a lot of people don't understand how to gain insight from a review or critique. People want to see the #/10 and have their opinion confirmed or else get mad that someone doesn't share their opinion, or they want to see the score and decide to play a game based on that number.
@TheDoomSheep5 жыл бұрын
Well that is because most of the people don't really care or go to see reviews to understand things, but to have a confirmation of the choice they made to like something. It is often more of a social-belonging based process, in which ones identifies his/her own self based on what theylike and it is then natural to feel the wish to have that thing be well accepted by others. I like a lot Totalbiscuit (R.I.P.) WTF videos, Superbunnyhop, Mattewmathosis reviews and Codex Entry videos as they all talk about many systems, explaining what they think about them and letting you decide whether you would like them or not. It is in my opinion more helpful, but more engaging and many people just don't care I believe. Which is fine, because in the end videogames are videogames, they are stupid. We all are stupid.... some more than others...
@eliamagrinelli5175 жыл бұрын
People suck. They can't take different opinions.
@Dan4Neo5 жыл бұрын
I have always called them "Devil May cry style action games" for more than a decade now. Didnt know it had its own name!
@Sephivoiceactor5 жыл бұрын
You're a good fox, Foxcade.
@user-fy3oy4vo9m5 жыл бұрын
I wish i knew more about one piece....
@mrjiggely5 жыл бұрын
Mr Jiggely just go for it.
@tricksalot25 жыл бұрын
youre not alexander !
@crabohardman59575 жыл бұрын
(Impressed whistle)
@Comkill1175 жыл бұрын
Omg. I swear I heard 'heartbreak heartbreak' from persona4 at the start of the video and then persona 5 'shapeshifter' at the end.
@ronald77955 жыл бұрын
Thank´s to Codex Entry I found your channel............ so..... that's Ironic, and based in this video I´m going to subscribe.
@DavMCycle5 жыл бұрын
"Character action game" is the blandest name you can give to something that's supposed to be flashy and stylish
@NavyHuskie2 жыл бұрын
I agree the genre needs to exist, I just think character action is a stupid name for it.
@arenkai Жыл бұрын
I guess if the point is to be stylish in the game, then why not call it "Style Action"? Character Action is as reductive (and more stupid) than "just Action games".
@ilucasz Жыл бұрын
Haven't heard of Assault Spy or Nelo until this video, but they both look really fun. Insta added to my steam wish list, probably won't bother with them until they're out of early access though Anyway, I think sub genres are important for anyone with a niche interest within a greater genre. Finding new games that specifically appeal to my taste in action games like Assault Spy are much harder when we refuse to use sub genres. I mean, I would've never even heard of the game if it wasn't featured in a video talking about "character action games".
@Adrian.Christ5 жыл бұрын
Im so excited for lost soul aside. It looks so fucking good for a game made by 11 people. Hopefully they keep on their promise that it'll be done by this year.
@loki_l_13805 жыл бұрын
Can I get this "git gid" at my nearest GameStop? I usually pull out my mom's credit card and buy my way through 😎
@revolver55025 жыл бұрын
13th Party think you should buy that matching Ciel Figuring bud lol 😛
@gunslingerP905 жыл бұрын
You mean "Git gud" ?
@Shiftinggers5 жыл бұрын
I'm pretty sure that this genre of games already has an official name... I believe it's Hack and Slash. There's nothing wrong with people calling them Character Action games, but I don't see the problem in calling them Hack and Slash games?
@robertlaurine73032 жыл бұрын
For me, the difference between Hack and Slash and Character Action is the enemies/AI. Hack and Slash enemies are so dumb. They just stand there, waiting for you to punch them. Yeah, there are like 1000 enemies, but they dont do anything. I played Dynasty Warriors, One Piece Pirate Warriors and Naruto Ultimate Ninja Impact and the enemies are all the same, just stand there doing nothing. In Character Action games like DMC or Bayonetta, you only have like 5-6 enemies that will force you to block, dogde, evade and attack successfully. So you have to learn attack patterns, number of enemies, which type of enemies to kill first etc.
@jeppyjep2 жыл бұрын
@@jeppyjep You mistook Hack And Slash with Musou... They are not the same thing. Actually, the greatest examples of Hack And Slash games are Bayonetta and Devil May Cry.
@ilucasz Жыл бұрын
Hack and slash is used to describe isometric diablo like games Dynasty warriors is musou
@Azure9577 Жыл бұрын
The "it really incentivizes creativity in combat" part feels similar to how different players handle execution in fighting games like Tekken 7 and why veterans were pissed off at the *casualization* of Street Fighter V, both genres have a lot of depth.
@kmphysics5 жыл бұрын
At first the title confused the heck out of me then I watched the video it all makes sense now
@nikolasbartell21945 жыл бұрын
They are just action games with really good combat
@AlexB4tman5 жыл бұрын
ay lmao
@ViktorKruger995 жыл бұрын
*J U S T A C T I O N G A M E S W I T H R E A L L Y G O O D C O M B A T*
@HazmanFTW5 жыл бұрын
They really are. Foxcade's definition would exclude several games from the genre like Furi.
@Dan4Neo5 жыл бұрын
Arent they called "hack n Slash"?
@pedromrsil5 жыл бұрын
TiTan29 there are 2 genres that are drastically different that are called hack and slash by people that don't play them: Isometric Arpgs like diablo and path of exile are universally referred to as Arpgs by those communities, as well as DMC- like games that still don't really have A a decent name. It should just be hack and slash since no one really calls Arpgs that anymore except people that don't play them.
@dudeonthasopha5 жыл бұрын
yes they are just Hack'n slash, but some would want a game like dmc so they try to classify it as a "character action game", some dumb stuff about sub-genres
@zacrylist57485 жыл бұрын
dudeonthasopha i've always heard hack and slash, It might be because im not in the us, so people here "only know" the term hack and slash
@pedromrsil5 жыл бұрын
Z the Booza That's cos there can be games of the same gameplay without all the combat gimmicks that are still hack n slash, as example hyper light drifter or ys vi
@byakazyaka5 жыл бұрын
Hack and slash is an incredibly broad term. To narrow things down for clarity people use terms like character action, stylish action, spectacle fighter, etc. so that i dont look for a game like DMC and get a Diablo-like ARPG. Its the same reason why people say fighting game instead of "beat em up". Beat em up tends to describe a game like streets of rage which is pve against hoards of enemies so if I'm talking about a primarily pvp game like Street Fighter then I would say fighting game to clarify. A problem people tend to have with sub genres is that they take the names too literally when discussing how to define them.
@EbonMaster5 жыл бұрын
I've subbed so I can keep watching after your trip. Liked the Persona song when you mentioned Japan!
@TeQxktcg5 жыл бұрын
I like this definition because you now classify Senran Kagura as a "Character Action Game" and now it must be mentioned from here on out whenever someone brings up the topic.
@TheCrescentKnight5 жыл бұрын
Along with Oneechanbara, both have better training tools than Devil May Cry last I checked.
Foxcade v Gaming Brit: Dawn of Just Frames
elrapido5150 Creative Response
Wtf man that title is so Onimusha
I feel "spectacle fighter" is a much better descriptor for the genre really, as the game's focus is on the style and is also focused on the depth of the fighting
Ninja Gaiden isnt focused on style, but mastery and high skill ceiling.
@@scary5455 that is style
I think Vanquish should be a Character Action Shooter!
In that case, we need more of these kinds of games because Goddamn that game is so much fun! Still waiting on a sequel or some kind of spiritual successor.
@@DinoDave150 try ultrakill its a character action fps!
@@DinoDave150Warframe
Well this reminds me of how 1st Doom sprouted the whole new genre of games which used to be called "Doom clones" back then and how broad it is now as FPS
I call them Devilnetta games.
I call them Bayomaycry, but I like your name too.
Bayonetta-May-War
Bumdumptruckbayomaycryvanquishrevangebce
Ninja gaidevil
That’s actually an incredible name for them, just like how MetroidVania defines a specific type of 2-D Platformer. Devilnetta defines a specific type of 3-D action game.
if you ask me all games should just be cancelled
I just checked Steam. The suitcase game is called "Assault Spy" and the raptor is "Nelo." Both of them seem to still be in Early Access, though.
@MAGAMan. Z er0 I came here to find out which one the "raptor" one was and I'm so happy it's first comment.
Your survival horror point alone shows the importance of sub genres. Action game is far too vague to describe every game with action.
SurvivalHorror100 absolutely. Just like how metal in general is vast thats why we categorize them in sub genres to make it easy to look for interesting bands that share similar style of music. Same thing applies to action games :-)
The metal example is especially on point, for the reason you gave as well as being an example of what Foxcade warned against: being too exclusive when something doesn't perfectly match one's expectations for the genre. Metal subgenre purism is infuriating, which is part of why artists who aggressively don't give a damn like Devin Townsend are such a delight. (misses the survival horror boom as well)
I honestly felt that this was a really weak point, since horror isn't really a game genre to begin with. It doesn't describe in any way what the gameplay is like, only the aesthetic the game has. Anything from Castlevania to Resident Evil is a horror game. You could design a survival horror game, and then strip it entirely of its horror aesthetic without touching the gameplay, and it would just be a survival game. Meanwhile, in order to make an action game not be an action game, you have to actually alter its gameplay to strip it of action. You could argue that the term action game is too nebulous, but it at least describes the gameplay to some extent, something horror absolutely fails to do.
Whether or not horror describes gameplay is completely irrelevant to the overall point. You said it yourself, "you could argue that the term action game is too nebulous", thats literally what he is arguing.
@@benparent9864 It's been some time since I watched the video (and won't watch again right now), but I seem to remember that he made some point about how action is too nebulous and needs additional descriptors because horror (at least he provided it as an example) does it as well. My point is that action isn't as nebulous as horror, since horror is uniquely an aesthetic descriptor, while action does offer some hint to the nature of the gameplay. Which is why I said it's a weak point to make, since you can't really bring up the comparison like that. I didn't even say that the video as a whole was wrong, just that that point in particular was weak from my perspective.
Nicely done argument; people often forget that genres are made for people to navigate/understand/find works of media of similar types that they might like rather than to argue about what things are on the internet.
Okay, now that we've got that settled, new debate: Poptarts count as sandwiches. Discuss.
Codex Entry DO NOT BRING YOUR HERESY HERE
Chaotic fact
THEY'RE TOO DAMN SUGARY, LOOK AT MY TEETH, THEY'RE DYING in seriousness tho they're pretty good as a treat
Obviously the answer is no. XD
they are ravioli you buffoon
With the mention of Sonic and its end of level rating system, I can remember with Sonic Adventure 2 it introduced a similar DMC like worded Style system for chaining homing attacks, grinds, successfully timed pole spinning moves and Light Speed Dashes. Also funnily enough both DMC1 and SA2 came out the same year, but with SA2 predating DMC by a few months. Maybe some shared ideas between friends from the two companies meeting up on lunch breaks or just pure coincidence who knows, but it is still pretty cool to look and think "oh wow parallels"
I agree with both you and GamingBrit to certain extents. It's a shame that most people need to act like asses and flame one of you two.
Real talk
I don't understand people who don't like/want people to refer to these games as character action when they will talk about souls games and how things are souls clones. If you take everything as action then souls games are just action games too if we can't have our sub genre that just makes talking about the very specific type of gameplay easier then you can't have yours either.
Because the cornerstone of character action is good combat. Meaning, you could excuse games with worse combat by saying they're not character action. Well, that, and it's stupidly broad. It's nice as a colloquialism, but that's about it.
That's not a good comparison imo, I don't consider "Souls Clones" a genuine genre. Code Vein, The Surge, Salt and Sanctuary are similar, but they're still just action-rpg's to me.
Because souls clones is a more assholish term that just has laced in elitism and skepticism like keeping on with "doom-clones"
A lot of Souls fans dislike the term Soul Clone and Souls-Like. They have been used to lump in games that obly have surface level similarities or aren't good games in general. Just because you use a bonfire checkpoint system and combine money and exp into the same currency does bot make you a Souls game.
I don’t call them “souls-clones”, I call them “'running around the boss and wait for an opening' simulators”
I'm so happy someone made a video properly discussing and elaborating on what roughly defines a character action games. Thanks for the great video.
Thanks to this video, I now know the existence of Nelo and Assault Spy. How on Earth did those games slip by me? Anyway, this was a great insight video. Always love watching anyone and everyone's view on this somewhat undefined genre.
I wonder about that too. I instantly wishlisted them and will wait until they leave early access.
That was me, too! I see these cool and unique-looking CUHRAYZIE GAMEZ onscreen, and I have no idea what they're called! I gotta play these sometime. They look rad. And hey, this is the first person I've ever seen acknowledge the existence of Fairy Bloom Freesia. I had completely forgotten about that game.
Assault Spy gets a huge recommendation from me, been playing since launch and rough edges from Early Access aside, it pretty much nails everything that makes games like DMC great
Same thing happened to me with God Hand, didn’t even know the game existed until late 2017 from watching GamingBrit’s channel, I still can’t believe it passed me up for like 11 years but I’m glad I found out about them eventually
@@lugbzurg8987 here's someone else who enjoyed Freesia. Really deserves more love
I may be late, but I started watching your vids today, I've loved the dmc series for such a long time, watching your videos made me happy, I really enjoy your tone of trying to take in every opinion and then forming your own by watching/playing the thing. Keep up the good work!
This was a great video. I agree with a lot of the points you brought up. This is one of my favorite sub-genres and I for one hope it continues to evolve so that one day maybe more people will fall in love with these games like we have.
“Kamiya Simulators” that’s a new one...
Whatever people call this genre I just want to say it's my absolute favorite. The top of the heap being Ninja Gaiden. Ninja Gaiden 4 when? Oh and Devil May Cry 5 looks good too!
A well done video. Enjoyed listening to your thoughts on this genre!
I'm glad that "just action games" being a very reductive attitude was pointed out. I mean, I'm a metal head, so I'm very used to the 'Forrest Gump Shrimp Recipes" thing in metal sub-genres (proto-classic-heavy metal, thrash, death, black, blackened death, stoner, doom, prog, avant-garde, circus, symphonic, gothic, black'n'roll, black-thrash, melo-death, viking, pirate, nu-metal, rap-metal, techno-metal, technideath, industrial-metal, then you got your "cores", metal core, grindcore, deathcore, porngrind...and all this ignoring the rainbow of punk/metal hybrid stuff) Imagine a world where "It's all just metal". Shit would all blend together and would lack identity despite being something separate and organized. I wouldn't recommend Deicide to an Iron Maiden fan and I wouldn't expect a Metallica fan to be into Carach Angren when I first play it for them. Point is, these labels are here to give identity to our tastes, so we can seek out more of what we like. and personally, I use "stylish action" as the name, but I know what's meant when people say the others, like "spectacle fighter" or "character action". And knowing what's meant by that is all that's really needed.
Mar Ther I came to a very similar conclusion thanks to using metal as a reference. You can't just say "really good metal," as the elements that are present are mixed and emphasized in different ways to bring different sub-genres. As much as people argue this over metal and video games, you can't just parse the good games from the bad games when there's bound to be clear flavors that you hate and love due to personal preference and values. As much as people may raise eyebrows over sub-genres, they help me find new things when I want a certain kind of experience.
How? If you have a label for every type of metal, that means every type of metal loses its own identity, and is shuffled in with the rest. If a band tried to do something unique, but some fuck-off band from god knows where did it similarly, they're just be grouped in the same category. That's the antithesis of uniqueness, being like something else.
Furthermore, colloquialisms are colloquialisms for a reason. Meaning, they're not well-defined enough to be definitions. "Knowing what someone means" isn't enough for a definition.
and over-generalization is even worse for that sense of uniqueness. like i said, if it was "all just metal" or even just "good metal", then new things wouldnt be happening at all, and even if those new things happen, putting them into an umbrella term of just "metal" ignores what makes a band stand out. the best way to do that is to take what we know already and mix it with something we might not know yet. and that subgenre doesnt stop there; it can now mix with other subgenres (Immortal, Mayhem, and Darkthrone are just black metal, thanks to the influence of Venom and Celtic Frost. Cannibal Corpse, Deicide, and Six Feet Under are just death metal, thanks to the influence of Possessed and Death[the band]. Then a band like Behemoth comes around years later and melds those two, popularizing "blackened death metal." Without the presence of the first two, the third would have never happened at all). these subgenres exist to recognize and organize new things so the listener can seek out more of what they already like. Imagine this: Black Sabbath is a metal band. Slayer is also a metal band. Atreyu is metal. Immortal is metal. Winds of Plague is metal. Meshuggah is metal. Korn is metal. Linkin Park is metal. Carach Angren is metal. But none of those bands sound REMOTELY alike. Their only common ground is "high-gain guitar music", so we say Black Sabbath is heavy metal, Slayer is thrash, Atreyu is metal-core, Immortal is black metal, Winds of Plague is death-core, Meshuggah is prog-metal (or proto-djent), KoRn is nu-metal, Linkin Park is (was?) rap-metal, and Carach Angren is symphonic black metal. It's about labeling the things for what separates them from each other, not about what makes them all the same. Calling it just "metal" just puts all of them into 1 boat when each set of qualities deserves their own vessel. And if other bands decide to follow well-established formulas, then those bands are considered "unoriginal". Case in point; Trivium, Avenged Sevenfold, and Five Finger Death Punch. in games' case, Darksiders and Okami were just considered 'zelda clones', when Okami definitely deserves more credit than that. Darksiders....not so much. this is why a consensus needs to be made and why saying "They're just action games with really good combat" is an idiotic claim to me. Why the fuck would anyone play an action game with crap combat? Cuz thats what its implying; these specific games have really good combat, everything else in the "action" file doesn't have good combat. It's ignoring what sets DMC3 apart from Dynasty Warriors and puts subjectivity into what's supposed to be an objective category. this is why half the games ever created in the history of all games can easily just be called "action-adventure"; as if Zelda and Full Throttle have to share a file-folder, regardless of OBVIOUS differences. May as well lump Witcher 2 in there with them, then. Or does being an "RPG" put it into the same boat as Final Fantasy and Bravely Default? What about Breath of the Wild? Is that an "RPG" because of how similar to Skyrim and Witcher 3 it is? And then, what's Dark Souls? Hack-n-slash or RPG? Is Dark Souls actually an "open-world" game, too? If so, does that mean Dark Souls and Far Cry 3 are part of the same genre? Why did the term "Souls-like" happen for Bloodbourne, The Surge, Salt & Sanctuary, Hollow Knight, Dead Cells, and Lords of the Fallen? Aren't they all "just action games with really difficult combat"? Is Cuphead a Souls-like, by the same token? No, it's side-scrolling shooter, like Contra. When a collection of games all share the same mechanics (a grading system, deep and expressive combat, fast pace, arcade-style stage design, and hi-octane cutscene spectacle), then they need to have a term that distinguishes them from the others in that "action game" cabinet. Thus, we need to come to an agreement as to what they should be called, cuz this subgenre has Wonderful 101, DMC, Bayonetta, and Veiwtiful Joe all sharing a house together in the neighborhood of "action games". I prefer "stylish action", cuz "hack-n-slash" and just plain "action games" denies those games their respective credit and identity. TLDR; If you think emerging sub-genres DON'T provide games a sense of identity, I think you're a fool. To agree with the idea of "just action games" is far more generalizing and pidgeon-holes games that deserve more credit than that. By that token, Vanquish, Spec Ops: The Line, and Gears of War are all just basically the same game. But they aren't, are they?
I love how you can't see the obvious hypocrisy there. If generalizing a game with a genre makes it lose its identity, why does generalizing it in a sub.genre not? Why can't we, oh I don't know, review and analyse games for what they are, without having to label them anything? Because in the end, they're all blanket statements, since you're only giving games the "character action" title based on your feelings, not objectivity. A colloquialism at its finest, but a definition? Not in a million years. Also, your examples of loose definitions are horrible. Full Throttle is a point-and-click, Witcher is an action RPG, FF is a turn-based RPG, BOTW is open world third person action adventure, which indeed does make it similar to the Witcher, but not to Skyrim, which is first person. And now I know you're being intellectually dishonest, since FC3 is an open world FPS, not a hack and slash. All of these have actual definitions that you can apply to them objectively. You know, without feels. A first person game is objectively first person, so is third person, so is over the shoulder, so is isometric, 2D, 3D, and so on and so forth. And you were a hypocrite again, since you said Cuphead isn't Dark Souls because of its perspective, yet lumped in 101 and Joe into the same genre. If a game's perspective is enough to differentiate it in terms of genre, then why does the same not hold true for the character action genre? Like, do you actually think about the things you write? Also, no, we really don't need to come to an agreement, and we never will. The genre you're arguing for is based on games "feeling" the same, while not being objectively the same. Mostly because God Hand, Joe, and DMC are, objectively, completely different games, but because they're kinda like each other in some mechanics, they're character action. And that "kinda like" is because you look cool and the game tells you you're cool. And coolness is subjective beyond all belief. The very basis of the definition makes it ineligible to be a definition. What it makes it, however, is a colloquialism. And is just as relevant as one.
This is pretty much the first time I hear this term. I just checked the wikipedia pages for Bayonetta and DMC and they are all just called hack n slash games. Weird.
I've always heard them called hack n slash games.
First I’ve heard it called “character action”. Also just called them hack n slash. The term character action kind of sounds made up.
That's the problem with subgenre titles not becoming popular; those who prefer games of that type can be seen as elitists of the main genre and you can struggle to find games of similar types, often defaulting to games by the same creators and in the same series. How many people have heard of the Devil May Cry/God of War series, and Clover/Platinum Games, but not Otogi 1/2, Shinobi PS2, Blood Will Tell, Ninja Gaiden 1/2/3, Nelo, Assault Spy, Nightshade, Bujingai, Chaos Legion, Gungrave (Overdose), The Sword of Etheria, and Mortal Combat: Shaolin Monks? How many assume a game of that type is bad if they've never heard of them before?
I only heard it through gamebrit and later fox. I believed it was a new term .. then I looked it up and saw it was used since at least 2014 I hope this term will never go mainstream. It's so stupid and says nothing (like Moba - i remember people calling Quake 3 moba - becauste its an online arena...) It only helps to confuse people - I'm so sick of misusing words, so I would rather choose another term style'n'slash or something like that .. or outright DMC-clone :P
Hack n slash isn't used that much on the core communities because people used the term for at least 3 completely different genres. Diablo-style ARPGs (usually called looters or Diablo-likes too), Dynasty Warrior style 3D beat em ups and action games like DMC. To differentiate them the communities came up with different names and character action is the one which sticked the most with these kind of action games.
13:48 SOMEONE MENTIONED MY GAME! IT'S NOT IRRELEVANT! AHHHH!
You stole my words
I marked out when Codex turned up. Love both your channels!
Timestamps: 1) Combat Depth 4:50 2) Perfection/Mastery Systems 6:22 3) Faster Pace 9:18 4) Arcade-style Level Design 10:50
Overall I think that the video is great at explaining what sub-genres are and why they exist AND since Character action game is the name that has been flowing around recently, I think I can agree with it. Again, great video.
I wonder where FFXV fits in this aspect then? A lot of ppl brush over its combat bc of how simple it may be at first glance, but surprisingly has depth with its weapon switching, warp strikes, and airstep combos as well as looking pretty stylish
Never thought about the connection between my love of DMC/Character Action games and Souls-like games until this video. It makes perfect sense now that you brought it up tho
Finally able to watch my wi fi went on the fritz as soon as you uploaded
You’re not locked in there with them . They’re locked in there with you - Rorschach foxcade
Yeah dude, that's a great scene
13:41 Has the list of games used
Thank you so much
Another great video, nice colab btw
People say subgenres can't be based on a few games, but metroidvania is literally named after only two.
Why are we still here... just to suffer?
Live for suffer. Life for revenge. Know your life. Comes to an end
I just recently kinda got into the Character Action Hack N' Slash subgenre because I've been a big fan of the western hack n' slashes like God of War and Darksiders and Dante's Inferno for a long time. I started with Bayonetta and Just recently started playing the Devil May Cry franchise and started with DMC3. I LOVE the game and I'm planning on diving deeper into the franchise. So far from the fandom I've heard 1 is good, avoid 2 and the remake like the plague, 4 was ok, and 3 and 5 were the best.
I just love that when you talk about fighting enemies in these games you say “styling on them”.
I personally use the term "fast-paced action" or "hyper-action" when I describe these kind of hack n' slash games to friends
Really, I think the truth of the matter is that video game genre definitions are a trainwreck overall. I'm a believer in the argument that genres should be based on core appeal, and then branch outward. The existing genre definition is more based on a superficial description of the game, which sometimes works ok (Most people describe portal as a puzzle game before calling it an FPS or a platformer), but also sometimes misfires (the core appeal of Yakuza varies person to person, since some people are in it for the crime drama, some people are in it for the brawler, and some are in it for the toybox -- and you can easily ignore whichever two pieces you don't like). That being said, good luck convincing the entire gaming public to stop calling everything an action-adventure game!
Interesting video, I was always confused on what character action games are but this does help narrow things down. I guess you do have a point of different genres. I hate looter shooters but me not calling them "real shooters" is a bit disingenuous of me.
thanks for giving the wonderful 101 some. love. that game is criminally underrated
Love all your videos on this. Definitely gonna pick up Nier after finishing DMC 5's plat.
You wouldn't think that many people would have a problem with the idea of a way of describing games, but here we are. Loved your take on it, lovely video!
Now i need a Kamiya simulator.
The block button on Twitter is a great Kamiya simulator
Thank you for telling me about Nelo and Assault Spy - didn't know about those ;-)
Really great video. The character action genre wasn't really one I was familiar with until a while ago, to me these games were just hack and slash or beat em ups but now I think I understand what makes it it's own genre of games, one that doesn't have to be restricted by what traditionally makes it a thing. I mean I'm still going to harp on what makes an rpg an rpg but I definitely agree that genres should aim to evolve and be more inclusive than. Also you god of war response video too lol, your genuine thoughts on the game would be interesting though.
As much as u love these types of games, I'm really surprised u haven't done a retrospective for Metal Gear Rising Revengeance. I'd LOVE to see that, as would many of your other viewers. U covered Bayonetta which was done by Platinum Games, so it's only fair to cover MGR:R. I don't mean to sound like an entitled douche, I am just saying, it'd be awesome if u covered it! And also, thank u for all of the amazing content u have made so far. I just found ur channel today, and I've been watching for hours! Great work, and pls, keep em coming!
I do have plans to do one in the future, hopefully in the next few months but Bayo 2 would come first. I also want to get up to speed on my MGS lore so I can do it proper justice. And thank you! :)
Yummy yummy foxcade video in my tummy
All arguing about semantics aside, thank you SO MUCH for introducing me to Assault Spy. I've Played Ninja Gaiden Black, 2 and 3, Metal Gear Rising, DMC 3 and 4, Bayonetta 1 and 2 all to death and have been DYING for a new character action game. This is my absolute favorite genre of video games and it's so niche, nobody other than the DMC guys and Platinum games really ever makes them. Sucks that Assault Spy is only in early access, but it's super fun and I can't wait for the full release. I'll definitely check out Nelo too.
Don't think that I missed that excellent use of Persona 4 music.
What's the name of that game where you fight with the suitcase shown at 1:15? Edit: Found it. Games are listed at 13:41. It's Assault Spy and in early access, so that means I gotta wait for it to get out before I try it.
I think the real problem with 'character action' as a genre that TGBS touched on is that gameplay depth is the only element shared by all games that are commonly accepted as part of the genre. God hand doesn't have a scoring system (the level system is somewhat comparable but it's disabled on hard mode anyway) and I personally wouldn't describe Ninja Gaiden's combat system as being particularly style orientated but they're considered part of the genre for their technical combat systems. I think separating the games with the deepest combat mechanics into their own subgenre of action undermines what those games do uniquely well and justifies a lack of gameplay depth in other hack and slash/beat em'up ups, games which are just as combat focused but with much lower skill ceilings.
But Ninja Gaiden 2 is so fucking stylish II would say it practically defines the genre as much as DMC3 and Bayonetta
Jordan It runs at 10 frames a second during combat, it doesnt help define anything but how not to make a sequel.
Jordan I agree it looks stylish in a way that many other games don't but it doesn't seem to emphasize stylish play to the extent that something like DMC does. NG's mechanics seem more conducive to quick kills and ruthless efficiency in combat rather than freeform combos, such as obliteration technique and UTs.
I completely understand that perspective, I just mean that once you begin to excel at the game you pretty much learn "how" to be stylish at it because it teaches you how to be proficient and learn the enemy patterns. It provides so many different moves / weapons / options to be stylish like shuriken juggles and cancels that it's begging you to play stylish even if you can only do that on the lower difficulties for a while, but it would be so great if it did have the style meter like DMC 3 / 4 to actually incentivize variety instead of it being just for personal satisfaction to pull cool shit off like kick juggling, combo flexing etc. LTDR it has such satisfying physics and mechanics with a huge amount of moves and abilities that work together that it deserves to be played for stylish reasons as much as DMC despite not incentivizing it directly.
That rarely happened beyond the staircase for me, it's one of the most satisfying games I've ever played and I encourage people to dig into it regardless of it's flaws, just like DMC 3 and God Hand.
Video was great as usual. I saw some new games to try.
I really enjoyed this video! I was looking for a definition and this really helped! A lot of the hallmarks of the genre made me think a cool alternative name could be Colosseum Fighter or Gladiator Action game: Gladiators are locked in a room with and entertainment and spectacle is a high focus. Speed doesn’t really qualify though…
It's very weird, in France we just call "beat them all" games like DMC or Bayonetta And "Hack and slash" is for games like Diablo or path of exile And that's it !
Imagine if an anime fighter uses those mechanics
I don't see anything wrong with that term. It's just like the "metroidvania". Those games were basically side scrollers with deep exploration. Some gamers doesn't even know what that means, especially the younger ones. I always call the NBA2K series as "shitty game" and nobody gives a flying f.
I dont think that's a valid comparison since "metroidvania" does actually refer to other existing games which would make sense to atleast the people who've played metroid or castlevania. Character action doesn't give any hint as to what kind of game were talking about. My problem with terms like character action or other terms like spectacle fighter is that people will use it as a scapegoat for having lackluster combat. I saw this alot with the new God of War. When people critisized the games' combat people would use excuse of "it's not a character action game" as if thats an excuse for mediocre combat.
I really didn't expect to see Chaos Legion on this video. What a pleasant surprise
I’m quite surprised you didn’t mention the Darksiders series or Legend of Zelda series.
Hack n Slash.
I will agree with GamingBrit on one thing: Character Action is a weird name for this genre. Like, why "Character Action"? What does that even mean? Action with Character? I much prefer Stylish Action, or CUHRAYZEE Games.
spectacle fighter there you go
I believe back in the day with DMC3 or 4 the label on the Japanese covers labeled it Stylish Action. With games like Monster Hunter getting the label Hunting Action which I find much more appropriate than calling it an Action RPG.
It actually dates back to DMC1's Japanese release and is on the box of many other games before and after than era. That said Chaos Legion (not played but still) is called "Emotional Action" on the box and I wouldn't rush to call every description that Capcom or Namco say a new thing worth applying more broadly. On Namco, they have new names for each Tales of game with Berseria being... "RPG of Discovering your Own Reason to Live". Thematically, they tend to be spot on but mechanically I wouldn't say it helps someone pick which Tales of game to play at all.
Action is very interesting in Japan, because technically platformers like Mario are considered action games.
So for people who still think Character Action is a dumb term, imagine explaining something like Hollow Knight without using the term "Metroidvania". "Hollow Knight is a platformer." So it's like Mario? "No, there's an emphasis on exploration, you get upgrades that help you when you revisit an area." Cool, like Mega Man X! "No, but everything's connected." Like Metroid? "Yeah." Why didn't you just say 'Metroidvania'? Even if you don't like the name, using a label for a collection of games that all contain similar elements makes things so much easier. Specificity helps. As teen, I had to look up "hack and slash games more like Devil May Cry than Dynasty Warriors", when now I can just say "Character Action games" and people know what I'm talking about.
Furthermore "Action Games with really good combat" is completely subjective to TGB's tastes and preferences. I know just as many people who would apply that term to Soulslikes or Muso games, regardless of whether people here would agree with them. You NEED specificity when talking about a genre of games, and Fox has accurately laid out some criteria for what makes this subgenre a subgenre.
So what you're saying is, every game should be categorized as every other game that's like it, but came before it. At what point does this categorization stop? When it's convenient? Also, if something's like Metroid, it doesn't make it a Metroidvania. If something's like the Castlevania games that tried to emulate Metroid, that's a Metroidvania. I could even dismantle and disagree with your main point easily, I love it.
Peasham I mean, the whole point is that a subgenre is more about a collection of shared elements than everything resembling the original work. Pink Floyd has more in common with King Crimson than The Beatles, so it's Prog Rock. Alternatively, Queen did not consider themselves prog, but their earlier albums had elements of Prog, which can aid in selling those albums to a King Crimson fan. Viewtiful Joe has an in-depth scoring system reminiscent and a shop to buy moves, so while it's ultimately a puzzle platformer/beat em up, you could describe it as having Character Action elements and you'd be telling the truth. A subgenre isn't this strict label that a game has to fall under because it's like this one game (though some can), it's used by communities to share games that are similar enough in nature to warrant a comparison. And if you could actually dismantle my argument, you should've done it instead of jerking yourself off in the last sentence.
Oh its a Metroidvania? So it has math based RPG mechanics? Oh it doesnt? Hmm...It has a laege inventory system! No? My skills are directly influnced by the death of my enemies ala the Soul system? No...doesn't have that either? Well wtf kind of Metroidvania is this?!?!?!?! Hollow Knight is a 2d Open World Platformer. Didn't need to use Metroidvania at all to explain what Hollow Knight is. I dunno man, read the dictionary and learn to articulate better maybe?
@@aureateseigneur5317 okay, so the examples contrived, the point I'm trying to make is that fans of these types of games are going to know exactly what you mean
Whether or not you consider it a genre or sub-genre I think the distinction is very important. Calling something an action game is too broad. I've been playing Resident Evil 6 a lot lately. If someone asked me to describe what Resident Evil 6 was like I'd need a little bit more than action game.
Or maybe you can just spend a couple more seconds describing the game and what other games it's similar too, instead of trying to pick one word that defines it perfectly.
Gumshon Highly trained Special Forces officers have to fight zombies and other such mutants after an outbreak of a deadly virus. Can you tell me which Resident Evil I'm describing?
Adam J. Harper When did this go from being a discussion about semantics and sub-genres to a critique of the Resident Evil series. I was describing both Resident Evil 1 and 6. The S.T.A.R.S team fight against zombies and mutants after the outbreak of the t-virus and the B.S.A.A and other government agents fight against zombies and other mutants after the outbreak of the C virus. The description was applicable to both games. The genres are third person survival horror and action third person shooter. We could argue endlessly over Which Resident Evil games are good and which are bad but that would only cloud the topic at hand. And quite frankly I'm tired of that argument anyway.
Brandon Powell No, it's a third person shooter. That describes it perfectly, since it really is like a generic TPS.
@Brandon Powell: Well, with your description, the first game I thought of was Operation: Racoon City. WHY!?
I would say aggressive rather than defensive gameplay is a key feature of the genre. For example dodge offset in Bayonetta allows you to combine your defense with your offense so there's very little time when you are not attacking enemies. Compare that to something like Dark souls that has several mechanics like the stamina system that encourage much more defensive gameplay if you want to stay alive.
What about Ninja Gaiden Black which is a very fast paced defense oriented action game?>
You hit the nail exactly on point
"Fighting games are just 2-D action games."
Megaman Zero is a stylish character action, change my mind
I agree. Just like Dust an Elysian Tale is. But Guacameele isn't because combat is more puzzle-based. Change my mind too.
I've found my people
Nice vid. When you come back, hope to see some more good *and diverse* content
In my honest opinion "Stylish Action" is more a modifier that can be placed onto existing games. It means very in-depth combat where the style comes from you getting the hang of the system, and using everything at your disposal. Difficulty isn't artificial - rather, it's a matter of "Git gud or get stomped."
And doesn't sound bland, generic, reductive and stupid as Character Action.
What is a fellow Raven/lynx doing in character action territory
@@Azure9577 Ah, I see you've noticed my profile picture! A Raven must hone their craft in all fields if they want to stay ahead.
So basically you will going to made up a new genres for every game that has a slight difference to other games with similar or samey mechanics?
That is a sub-genre, but the whole video is just a pretentious excuse for a stupid name of something that already had bigger genres that could classify them well. Like Hack'n Slash, Beat'em Up, Third Person Shooter, etc.
ive been playing “character action” games since ninja gaiden 2 and never heard the term “character action” until this year
The term has been around since 2008ish. The reason is that people want free form combat games, and that is what Character action is. Ninja Gaiden would be hack in slash, but Bayonetta as brawler shootemup and dmc as hacknslash shootemup. But they all have free form combat. Character action sums up entirely the aspect of these games that players want to play. It's like comparing Fzero to Mario Kart. One is dead because the other provides the distinctive properties players want, but to just call them both racing would diminish what players are looking for. If you like Mario Kart, you might also enjoy Extreme G.
Honestly, I remember the original DMC being described as a stylish action game, I think by Kamiya himself if I remember right. Hack & Slash was originally referred to for Diablo styled games. Honestly, I think stylish action fits better.
These are some pretty good points to define games such as DMC or Bayo. Now when I play games in the future, I think I’ll be able to critique them better.
man after my own heart, first one i know to talk about the difficulty comparison between dmc and souls games
Foxcade, you Canadian?
Yup. Sorry...
Maple Syrup is better than British Tea! And I'm British!
Dedo Demi thank you so much for that insult it's gold
I heard that about and I knew immediately
0:26 "aboot" :3
Aren't character action just hack and slash games?
Nope. You can play character action games without sharp weapons, like Bayonetta.
I like that the Ghost Rider game got a little mention,wish the game got more love,its so underrated
I quite enjoy the term “spectacle fighter”, that’s the term I’d use
What's the game at 12:10? Looks sick af lol
you've probably seen the whole video by know but anyways. the game is called "nelo" and is currently in early access on steam
teero121 yeah he mentioned it later but the game looks great! I think I'ma pick it up later this week
teero121 but thanks tho!
sure no problem. im really interested in nelo, as well but imma wait till its finished
it looks interesting but there is to much shit on the screen
this was such a well thought out video.this comment section is killing me tho lmao like wth did anyone watch the video?
I did. And I can tell you that while this was a good video, the topic that was the main focal point is something that should not be touched with a ten foot pole.
@@Dan4Neo I disagree. I think encouraging discussion and debate is needed
THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT
Great video, well spoken
So, if a character action game is based on a combat system with a lot of depth, why not call it something like "Technical Action games"?
That's actually kind of a neat term! But I think the point that a lot of people critical of the existing name are missing is that genre descriptors are under no obligation to be descriptive. The term "RPG" is extremely vague if taken literally, and there are certainly people here and there who misuse that descriptor -- a fair amount of people and industry-focused publications label Zelda games as RPGs, of all things -- but generally speaking you know the sort of elements to expect if you're told that a game's an "RPG". Genre titles doesn't have to be literal as long as there's a shared understanding of what they're labeling.
Because "Technical Action" doesn't describe the speed and emphasis on style we want "Character Action" games to have
Some people call it that. Some call them DMC-likes, because it's the earliest notable originator. The names of genres and subgenres are often unintuitive and could be greatly improved upon (soulslike, metroidvania, roguelike), but so long as they do their job, they're fine. Just don't take them literally, or you end up with crap like "RPGs? But you Play a Role in every Game!".
+Joey Robles And character action denotes speed and style how?
@@Dan4Neo Since making this comment, I officially sided with Codex Entry and now believe that Character Action games are games that are deemed Character Action games by the Character Action game community. Solid definitions are mostly impossible since everyone in the Character Action game community has different solid definitions on what makes games Character Action
I think the main problem is when subgenres are used as a justification to have one specific part of a game be more or less heavily criticised. While describing a game it is helpful to have fast and precise ways to identify them in time and space, but when one has to analyse a game critically I believe it serves better to make a step back from the genre/subgenre definition, look at the mechanics and system that are inside a game a analyse them one by one to see how well they work and how well they serve their purpose in the game. This is also the context in which TGBS video was made, whic was basically a reaction to people that were livid to him for saying how some design decisions in the new God of War restricted how well you can play it as an action game (close fixed camera and no jump for example). Their argument was that since "it is not a character action game anymore" then combat mechanics should not be judged in the same way...which is bs to me, a system has to be judged for how well it serves to the game purpose and that's it. Those were badly implemented systems for the type of action they wanted to go for in the new God of War. Similar systems served very well in different action games, such as God Hand and Hellblade, as those games were designed around either closere and less numerous encounters and a reduced visual spatial awareness that needed to be complemented by sound cues...sorry for the rant. So, yeah, subgenres are good for description of a game, I agree.
I opened this video hoping Foxcade would address this issue. I feel like a lot of people don't understand how to gain insight from a review or critique. People want to see the #/10 and have their opinion confirmed or else get mad that someone doesn't share their opinion, or they want to see the score and decide to play a game based on that number.
Well that is because most of the people don't really care or go to see reviews to understand things, but to have a confirmation of the choice they made to like something. It is often more of a social-belonging based process, in which ones identifies his/her own self based on what theylike and it is then natural to feel the wish to have that thing be well accepted by others. I like a lot Totalbiscuit (R.I.P.) WTF videos, Superbunnyhop, Mattewmathosis reviews and Codex Entry videos as they all talk about many systems, explaining what they think about them and letting you decide whether you would like them or not. It is in my opinion more helpful, but more engaging and many people just don't care I believe. Which is fine, because in the end videogames are videogames, they are stupid. We all are stupid.... some more than others...
People suck. They can't take different opinions.
I have always called them "Devil May cry style action games" for more than a decade now. Didnt know it had its own name!
You're a good fox, Foxcade.
I wish i knew more about one piece....
Mr Jiggely just go for it.
youre not alexander !
(Impressed whistle)
Omg. I swear I heard 'heartbreak heartbreak' from persona4 at the start of the video and then persona 5 'shapeshifter' at the end.
Thank´s to Codex Entry I found your channel............ so..... that's Ironic, and based in this video I´m going to subscribe.
"Character action game" is the blandest name you can give to something that's supposed to be flashy and stylish
I agree the genre needs to exist, I just think character action is a stupid name for it.
I guess if the point is to be stylish in the game, then why not call it "Style Action"? Character Action is as reductive (and more stupid) than "just Action games".
Haven't heard of Assault Spy or Nelo until this video, but they both look really fun. Insta added to my steam wish list, probably won't bother with them until they're out of early access though Anyway, I think sub genres are important for anyone with a niche interest within a greater genre. Finding new games that specifically appeal to my taste in action games like Assault Spy are much harder when we refuse to use sub genres. I mean, I would've never even heard of the game if it wasn't featured in a video talking about "character action games".
Im so excited for lost soul aside. It looks so fucking good for a game made by 11 people. Hopefully they keep on their promise that it'll be done by this year.
Can I get this "git gid" at my nearest GameStop? I usually pull out my mom's credit card and buy my way through 😎
13th Party think you should buy that matching Ciel Figuring bud lol 😛
You mean "Git gud" ?
I'm pretty sure that this genre of games already has an official name... I believe it's Hack and Slash. There's nothing wrong with people calling them Character Action games, but I don't see the problem in calling them Hack and Slash games?
For me, the difference between Hack and Slash and Character Action is the enemies/AI. Hack and Slash enemies are so dumb. They just stand there, waiting for you to punch them. Yeah, there are like 1000 enemies, but they dont do anything. I played Dynasty Warriors, One Piece Pirate Warriors and Naruto Ultimate Ninja Impact and the enemies are all the same, just stand there doing nothing. In Character Action games like DMC or Bayonetta, you only have like 5-6 enemies that will force you to block, dogde, evade and attack successfully. So you have to learn attack patterns, number of enemies, which type of enemies to kill first etc.
@@jeppyjep You mistook Hack And Slash with Musou... They are not the same thing. Actually, the greatest examples of Hack And Slash games are Bayonetta and Devil May Cry.
Hack and slash is used to describe isometric diablo like games Dynasty warriors is musou
The "it really incentivizes creativity in combat" part feels similar to how different players handle execution in fighting games like Tekken 7 and why veterans were pissed off at the *casualization* of Street Fighter V, both genres have a lot of depth.
At first the title confused the heck out of me then I watched the video it all makes sense now
They are just action games with really good combat
ay lmao
*J U S T A C T I O N G A M E S W I T H R E A L L Y G O O D C O M B A T*
They really are. Foxcade's definition would exclude several games from the genre like Furi.
Arent they called "hack n Slash"?
TiTan29 there are 2 genres that are drastically different that are called hack and slash by people that don't play them: Isometric Arpgs like diablo and path of exile are universally referred to as Arpgs by those communities, as well as DMC- like games that still don't really have A a decent name. It should just be hack and slash since no one really calls Arpgs that anymore except people that don't play them.
yes they are just Hack'n slash, but some would want a game like dmc so they try to classify it as a "character action game", some dumb stuff about sub-genres
dudeonthasopha i've always heard hack and slash, It might be because im not in the us, so people here "only know" the term hack and slash
Z the Booza That's cos there can be games of the same gameplay without all the combat gimmicks that are still hack n slash, as example hyper light drifter or ys vi
Hack and slash is an incredibly broad term. To narrow things down for clarity people use terms like character action, stylish action, spectacle fighter, etc. so that i dont look for a game like DMC and get a Diablo-like ARPG. Its the same reason why people say fighting game instead of "beat em up". Beat em up tends to describe a game like streets of rage which is pve against hoards of enemies so if I'm talking about a primarily pvp game like Street Fighter then I would say fighting game to clarify. A problem people tend to have with sub genres is that they take the names too literally when discussing how to define them.
I've subbed so I can keep watching after your trip. Liked the Persona song when you mentioned Japan!
I like this definition because you now classify Senran Kagura as a "Character Action Game" and now it must be mentioned from here on out whenever someone brings up the topic.
Along with Oneechanbara, both have better training tools than Devil May Cry last I checked.