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Among the many dark and depressing episodes of The Walking Dead, there’s one that stands out to me as the darkest. A lot of people might think of The Day Will Come When You Won’t Be, and that’s a pretty fair take, I think that after all this time of talking about it and rewatching it I’ve become a bit desensitized to it, but even after all these years, the season 4 episode “The Grove” still stands out as the definitive darkest episode of The Walking Dead.
0:00 - 2:48 - Intro/Episode Info
2:49 - 10:00 - The Grove
10:01 - 17:11 - Lizzie & Mika
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Late Night Driving - Broke In Summer
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The way Carol says “she can’t even walk yet” gave me chills
YES! The way she says that while trying so hard to sound normal for Lizzie is perfectly done. Melissa McBride is a fantastic actor.
Same
@@captainfox244My heart dropped when she said she was about to kill Judith
@@DanielWilsonPiano That helped me decide that yes she needed to die, as hard as it was. She killed her little innocent sister and was about to kill an infant - how to do you live with that child/person without the fear of all of your lives?
@@sidrennie5348yes. She could've kill Carol and Tyreese while sleeping...
If you don't think this episode is one of the best in the series then you need to look at the flowers.
Just look at the flowers...
its actually not tho
Just look at the fl..
@@rxgz5722 I think it’s an ok ep quite sad at certain scenes but overall it’s okay
@@rxgz5722 respectable opinion
The moment when Carol shoots Lizzie was soul-crushing. Then afterward when she confesses to Tyrese, I wonder if she may have wanted him to kill her and put her out of her misery.
She did want him to kill her. She didnt care anymore at that time
@@kelsey2333 It took me a long time to realize that it was an attempt at suicide.
Yup
Tyrese was my favorite character. Only person on the show ever. Who didn't allow the world as it was to corrupt his soul.
She did
Lizzie's acting was brilliant in this episode. A lot of people think she was a psychopath, but I think she was actually mentally ill. She didn't know what she was doing and what she did wrong and was generally delusional.
Psychopaths are pretty much just mentally ill people
Psychopathy is a mental illness, but I don't think that is what she had. She clearly cared about others, her reality was just distorted.
Psychopathy is a mental illness🤦🏼♀️🤦🏼♀️🤦🏼♀️
She needed the right person to take care of her. Carol wasn't it
yea people theorize that she has schizophrenia & it does explain a bit abt her thinking the walkers were talking to her
Lizzy seems to have had issues before the apocalypse. That whole look at the flowers thing Mika told her to do seems like a coping mechanism given to her from a doctor.
Aparantly it was confirmed that lizzie was scitsophrenic (sorry spelling lmao)
@@sleepwalking3345you mean schizophrenic? 😅
@@sleepwalking3345 that would explain some of her behaviors but what about killing the rabbits or even killing Mika? Those don't feel like schizophrenia imho it feels closer to psychopathy or maybe even something else entirely was wrong with her. Like she didn't understand why killing or hurting animals for fun is wrong. I know the writers have made a discission but honestly feels like it was poorly researched or understood
@@hurinthalion5984it wasnt for fun, it was to feed the walkers. she was just a traumatized kid with delusions that the walkers are like everyone else. definitely not a psychopath
@@bevil- no there was a rabbit she just randomly killed and nailed to a tree. Tyreese asks why she did it and Lizzy says it was for fun
It's so sad to think Carol basically lost four kids in the apocalypse. Sophia, then Lizzie and Mika (remember she said "one of *my girls* is sick" at the hospital) then Henry. I can't even imagine how it would feel to go through that much heartbreak
Yeah.
More than that almost everyone she started with is gone
Don’t forget Sam. He wasn’t hers but they were close and carol put a cookie on his grave after he was torn apart by walkers.
@@Ashas.Garden true, I didn’t include him bc I didn’t think Carol particularly liked him lol, just felt incredibly guilty
She didn't lose Lydia :)
I definitely don't think Mika was 'born with a bad brain' or even developed one over the course of the apocalypse. I think she was just a normal kid who was probably taught to be overly-compassionate at an early age because of her older sister's mental health. I imagine she was probably somewhat neglected, as a lot of siblings tend to feel when the parents need to focus on another kid's health.
I agree, Mika was freaking 10.
Yeah and her dad told her to watch out for her older sister when it should’ve been the other way around.
@@Redstar24_❤ Well to be fair if I saw everybody I love and care about literally get eaten alif before my fairy eyes everyone that I've ever talked to my. High school friends my friends everywhere my family members and my loved ones are literally getting ripped apart. While there's still screaming for help. Yeah I'd go a little cuckoo for cocoa puffs too
Isn't that just like the "glass child" subject?
Mika is so tradgic tbh. No one treated carl like that when the apocolypse started, hell i dont think carl has actually killed someone at this point. Mika really had the capability to grow and survive imo, hell im 19 and would probably be the same as mika
By far Tyrese was my favorite character. His death killed me. He is the only person in all of the walking dead. Who didn't allow the world to corrupt his soul and mind. He was just a good and kind person.
I felt the same about Glenn not letting the world completely change him.
@@heatherfrank7433but after 6x12 glenn did let his morals go and kill for the first time, it shows that even he let the influence of rick change him and make him go against his own morals
@@willdvss6536but even then he did so out of the kindness of not letting another person who also didn't kill a human for the first time to do so rather he sheltered the burden for him
Uh no Dale was like that too but unlike Dale Tyrese didn’t see himself as some moral compass and he didn’t constantly push his morals down people’s throats because he felt his morality was equal to being right
@@yelhsanosnhoj6602 That's also because we saw Tyreese in seasons 3,4,5, at this point in the show morality was already becoming something dangerous and in contradiction with the survival aspect of the show (basically It becomes tough to survive without killing any people). Whereas in season 2, morality was still such an important thing that people tried to stay attached to. I get your point but I think If Dale made It past season 2/3, his mindset would have changed drastically and on the other hand Tyreese in season 1/2 could have been more similar to Dale in that aspect. I don't know If what I'm writing is really understandable lol
I think Mika had a chance, but not Lizzie. She's a danger to others and, in reality, a danger to herself too - she plays with walkers, thinks they talk to her, thinks they're people who are just different. She would get eaten so fast on her own yet she can't be with others so... what can you even do for her? In their world, you can't help her. You can't take her to the psychiatrist and get her on medication or anything. There's just no hope for her.
She would’ve had a time with the whisperers
I wonder this all the time to this day. Did Carol do the right thing. After watching fear the walking dead and how they treated Daniel and his dementia, they kept him around regardless of his disorder. This episode really fucks with the mind on what is right and wrong and a decision as hard as Sophie's choice.
@@marcyc1695probably because lizzy could handle a gun and already killed. She would keep killing people and as she grew older she would be able to kill easier.
@@marcyc1695 They also kept Morgan though he was crazy.
@@whitedragoness23 Same goes for Morgan though.
I think what a lot of people forgot was that hershel saw the walkers the same way lizzie did back in season 2. and ultimately, it brought carol her worst trauma of losing sophia.
Hershel saw them as sick people that can be cured, I think it’s different to lizzie seeing them as people but just different. The analogy she made about her growing up, being herself and yet being different suggests that she likes/sees them as they are and thinks it’s okay, she bonds with them as walkers and doesn’t want them to change I think she just had a fascination with death, the early makings of a serial killer (in a non zombie world, because in this one most survivors are)
I mean technically Sophia died before she went into the barn but it was pretty traumatic for carol either way
Herschel didn’t have a mental disorder. Lizzie could not comprehend what the walkers were because she was mentally ill. Herschel couldn’t accept the walkers (his loved ones) were dead. He believe they were sick and he couldn’t let go. There is a distinct difference. Lizzy had been shown very clearly what they where and still didn’t get it. Herschel understood when he was shown the truth.
300th like
Lizzie was fundamentally dangerous. She wasn't bad. She wasn't evil. But her twisted dysphoria about her reality made her dangerous, so Carol was justified in removing that danger. It was that, or sending her out on her own, letting her die horribly either by walkers or bad people. Or, she's found by people who keep her and twist her derangement, and she becomes even more dangerous with allies and age. Ending her then and there was a mercy. They didn't have access to comprehensive mental care. There was no choice.
Agreed
The clip of Carol telling Lizzie to look at the flowers is actually what convinced me to watch the show. I was so curious about what happened to cause those events and how good the show as a whole was. I don’t regret it at all.
OMG ME TOO
Same! I saw a bunch of KZhead shorts and the two that convinced me were the look at the flowers moment and the moment where Carol and Therese found what Lizzie had done to Mica. When she said that she didn’t hurt her brain and that she’d change, it intrigued me because I hadn’t realized that in TWD people can turn without being bitten. It was a unique and intriguing concept that got me to start watching
bro thats so dope 😅
Until season 8
@@austinhernandez2716 s11 was the one I rlly struggled with tbh
There is an incomplete puzzle on the dining room table during Carol’s confession to Tyreese. According to the director, Michael E. Satrazemis, when completed, the puzzle forms a photograph of Carol’s long dead daughter Sophia who died years prior.
Whattttt?!?? 😮
btw it been 2 year at the prison break
it took them 9 month to get the prison, a year to lose it. so less then 2 year
@@NOTGGboy-dw8gmI estimated about 13-15mths... I'm rewatching the show....
The way Carol had to deal with Lizzie reminded me a lot of the ending of Of Mice and Men
I was looking for a comment like this lol. In my high school English class after reading Of Mice and Men, we watched the ending clip of this episode.
That's what I was thinking the whole time! The mice as well. In a way it was the innocence/ naïvity of both Lenny and Lizzy that was so dangerous and meant that they had to die
I think it's probably an homage
"Tell me about the rabbits, George..." 😭
Yeah that was the point. But in reverse
I think Mika also not killing the deer and then Lizzie killing her is symbolic. She couldn’t kill a deer. She told carol to her face she couldn’t kill living things… and she couldn’t defend herself (and Judith even though nothing happened) from her sister. And the realization of what her sister was doing to her and how carol was right? Also. The way they kept Judith from being immediately next by saying ‘she can’t walk yet’ was so brilliant. This episode hurts so much to watch lol.
Carol expected Tyreese to just kill her and takes her out of her misery, but what he did was actually save her. By forgiving Carol, he gave her a motivation to live.
Melissa McBride and Chad L. Coleman were amazing in this episode. Great chemistry together. This episode really nailed the insurmountable hopelessness that was starting to drain on the people in the apocalypse. Side note: Would have been cool to have Carol tell an older Judith about once upon a time when they were both in the woods together.
I remember watching this episode and being left in pure shock. I loved them showing the reality of what such horrors can do to children. While Judith is a beaming light of courage, Lizzie is the perfect example of how moldable kids can be, they are shaped by what’s around them. And her childish naivety ended up having major and realistic consequences. That’s what makes this episode one of the best, it doesn’t pull any punches.
I 100% believe that Lizzie was already like this long before the apocalypse. Her looking at the flowers was a coping mechanism. I think Carol even says something to the effect of "It was already there..."
Judith is still a baby here, probably almost a year old, so they're only about 2-3 years into the apocalypse at this point so both Lizzie and Mika were alive before the fall, they weren't strictly raised in it like Judith was. Mika might not remember the time before but Lizzie would, that's what makes it more unsettling. One of the best episodes, it's a masterpiece!
Mika would definitely remember life before the apocalypse. In season 4 it was only about a year and a half since the apocalypse started and she was 9 or 10.
Well the writers confirmed that Lizzie had schizophrenia, which explains a couple of things. Aside from that, the thing with Judith and the animals, I think in some way, Lizzie didn't realize that she was doing something wrong. She was definitely not a psychopath, she did show care and compassion for others.
Oh wow! Icl I never felt like she was mentally ill she just seemed like she was a young girl who was struggling to marry her perspective of humans from before with her perspective of humans, now turned walkers in the new world. And because she hadn’t been parented properly in a long time there was little room for long and deep discussions about the morality of killing these things. Whilst Carol tries in the episode after having patented herself and her sister and assuming that maturity due to the harsh conditions of her life now, she had to make her own decisions about her perspective on what was right and wrong in this new world and she had already decided. I never got that she was delusional just a byproduct of growing up in an apocalyptic society with no chance for real parenting and guidance
The fact you get to rescue these kids only for them to lose their minds in front of you is what so heartbreaking.
Carol is the freaking biggest badass in the entire show. Because she is willing to do the right thing, even when it’s hard and no one else is willing to do it. No one on the show has the mental and emotional fortitude to stomach the things Carol did.
I think what is usually not pointed out is that Lizzie probably didn't really snuck up to much on Mika, that's not her style. So Mika probably tried to reason with Lizzie, but wouldn't kill her to save herself even tho she did carry a gun, because she couldn't kill anyone or as far as we have seen even hurt anyone. So the problems of those girls kinda killed both of them.
Lizzie standing over Mika was the scene I confidently pick out as the most shocking I ever saw in the show. It stands out to me above all others
The fact this episode didn't get Melissa or Chad so much as nominated for an Emmy is a tragedy.
Ms. McBride won a Saturn award for Best Supporting Actor!
I've had a t shirt for years : its that snub nose revolver in a field and it says "just look at the flowers" . I have had people of every race, old & young stop me to compliment that shirt. it made me realize how EVERYONE watched TWD and knew that SCENE..just look at the flowers......
TWD really was just an absolute powerhouse of a show in its heyday
I don't understand how people hate the back half of season 4; it is easily my favorite stretch of episodes of the show.
I remember watching it as it came out and it was annoying and slow but streaming it completely changed my view of it
@@maxbenson7457ah of course that makes sense
Binge watching basically gets rid of pacing issues in shows and I remember watching TWD weekly as a kid. Post prison on the way to terminus was a effing drag until the grove and finale came out when watched weekly. Binge watching the show eliminates the week long waits for each episode and the storylines feel less disjointed when binge 😊watching
@@treswolves5512 much easier to remember the smaller details episode to episode too
@@treswolves5512 thats one of the reasons why I like to wait for a show to finish before I watch it
This episode was really big on Carol as well, because when she was removed from the group in season 4 episode 4, a lot of the episode had to do with Carol, proving that she can survive and explaining to Rick that sure you can be a farmer, but you can’t just be a farmer, essentially saying, you gotta lead and make tough decisions not everyone will like and tried to justify why she killed Karen and David earlier on in the episode. The Grove puts Carol’s money where her mouth is asking her to do what is required to the life of a little girl that was entrusted to her in order to guarantee the safety of two other lives, also her own, along with potentially anybody else along the way. She obviously ends up, making the tough decisions and going through with it all the way to a point where she ends up, making the decision to not go directly to terminus, and instead attacks it alone blowing open the gates using a heard of walkers to get the rest of the people after hearing gunshots, and checking the area to figure out what was happening and if they were even good people in the first place( she obviously does end up going into terminus to try and save Rick and them but I just wanted to try to keep it short😂😂). her ability to genuinely make the tough decisions is what ultimately saves Rick and the others from terminus. The Grove was like her ultimate test of can you make the hardest choices even when they could mean a life you care about. That is what the Grove mostly meant to me.
Well said. Ultimately proving why Carol is the absolute GOAT and one of my all time favorite characters.
All of this actually leads to my favorite version of Carol, which I like to call serial killer Carol where she appears normal but in the blink of an eye will set an entire group of people on fire while they’re sleeping leaving with almost no expression on her face all because the stuff they had belonged to people she knew and they hurt her son or use the worst enemy that any of the communities has ever seen being Negan just to kill alpha and i’d say she starts acting like this in season five because when you watch the tape that was recorded of Carol for entering Alexandria, she looks like a serial killer knowing everything she’s done how happy she looks and carefree. It was an act sure but I think that act followed her through the rest of the show. Morgan is the first person to walk up to her and say, “were you a cop you look like your always ready” even though she was just standing there looking normal. I think Morgan questioning her on having to kill them threw that idea in her head that maybe she’s like a serial killer making her want to stop no matter what even after leaving Alexandria she still has to kill even if she doesn’t want to.
@@thethriftytypewriter of course especially the version of her I would call serial killer Carol
@@mcgaming609 Morgan saw through her act. As the conversation between Ezekiel and Carol went it takes a BSer to see through another BSer. After Rick and Morgan killed the saviors that escaped Hilltop, Rick asked Morgan why he spared his life when they first met. Morgan said because his son was there. I haven't watched Fear since season 2, so I don't know about Morgan's character development since he left the main show. But I believe when he told Rick that, he truly believed that, even though I'm not so sure. But after Rick Carl and Michonne left him, until he met Eastman, "Clear" Morgan definitely would have. I loved the relationship between Carol and Morgan right from the start through the end of Morgan leaving.
@@shadowwolf9909Oh he absolutely would have. The only reason “Clear” Morgan spared Rick when they had their encounter is because Rick was able to get through to him, however little it was. He did still stab Rick, but if they had never met in S1 Morgan would’ve likely died in that episode.
Imagine carol just left and left lizzie to fend for herself. That would’ve definitely turned lizzie into a villain but for future season. Then around season 9 she met the whisperers. She would definitely feel like home with them and prolly been scarier than alpha. Then she came back to take revenge on carol for leaving. That woulda made an interesting twd villain in my opinion.
The whole point was that Lizzy wasn't fit to survive
I really wanted to see them just leave lizzy waaay more interesting
@@c.m.leavemealoneshe would be a great Whisperer
No Lizzie had already tried to let them bite her, she would a been taken out quick.... her thinking there talking to her, they take a bite out of her, yeah she'd be gone either way
No she wouldn’t the walkers would eat her :/
S4 as a whole was probably the darkest. Cannibalism, the gang loses so much at the prison, the gang splits up, and arent sure if they will see eachother again. This season was great, and so was this episode.
Was all great up until season 6, something about it just dropped the quality
This episode is probably the most realistic portrayal of children in the apocalypse and exploring deep psychological themes. How children process the apocalypse and the psychological horror aspect is something that few apocalyptic shows really delve into, you always just get the child who acts like a badass self reliant mature adult superhero or the kid who's stupid, weak, whiny and always needs helping. To have one child who processes the world around her differently to anyone else, and a child who is still innocent and pure, both of with express that childlike naiivity and curiosity but it different and conflicting ways, is so nuanced, and what it results in is probably the most dark and shocking moment in a show about zombies! This human drama is what makes TWD and it's what's been sorely lacking in the franchise for some time. Instead we get this recycled generic soap opera drama and action, but rarely real, visceral, relatable, dark character development. Carl in the comics is the only real comparison for this and it's one of the biggest failures of the show that they failed to portrayal Carl as this complex, conflicted, jaded child experience a complete loss of innocence, having dark thoughts and an existential crisis after the people he's lost and things he's had to do to survive, TV Carl is just cringe and basically does nothing after season 4. I also love Clementine and AJ in TWD Telltale games for this
Lizzie was already troubled before the apocalypse imo. Looking at the flowers was a coping mechanism.
Carl is not cringe lol
Lizzie's obsession with the walkers and confused understanding of life and death reminds me of like an inverse of how Tanjiro thinks of life and the monsters of his world in Demon Slayer. The demons in his world are truly monstrous, they hunt humans for sport and even when they aren't hunting them, they usually look down and belittle them for being weak. Unlike Walkers, however, demons are sentient beings who know that their actions hurt and effect people, and they do not care because that's the role of humans in the food chain. Demons killed almost all of Tanjiro's family, save his little sister who was turned into one, so he is fully aware of just how evil and cruel demons can be, and knows its his job as a Demon Slayer to kill demons in order to protect humans. But he also has a very different and mature perspective, maybe because of his Demon sister, that all demons were once humans, and most of them did not choose to become demons, and Tanjiro empathizes with the humans they once were. He will unquestionably kill any demon for the harm they have caused, but while they're in their slow state of dying, filled with confusion and anger at what their lives had become, Tanjiro puts a knowing hand on their head, telling them they can rest now. This lone act of empathy, and other similar moments, awaken the demons human memories, filling them with grief for what they lost and what they had done. This is never played as some sort of narrative trick to save the demons and turn them back into humans, it is just used to enhance Tanjiro's characterization, and showcase him as a more mature hero then you usually see in shonen stories. In the inverse way to Lizzie's unstable mental health makes her empathize with walkers and dissociate from humans and from life, Tanjiro is specifically empathetic to any and a all humans, even humans who were turned into demons, even demons who killed remorselessly, who may have killed hundreds or thousands, he sees the hurt human, the abused child, in their final moments, he sees these horrible monsters for what they truly are: scared and abused humans.
Talking about my two favorite shows- The Walking Dead and Demon Slayer! I love Tanjiro's character for having sympathy for them, despite how evil they have become.
One cool small bit of interconnectivity with the bottle-episodes of late season 4 is the burning walkers in this episode and the smoke in the distance. Showing how close they were to reuniting with Beth and Darryl but still not close enough.
OH YEAH!!!!! when they burn down the moonshine house!
Good catch! I never made the connection!
The passing on of information from Lizzie--the white smoke means fire is out, black smoke still burning. It's like Glenn saying flat head screwdriver for radiator, learned from Dale.
I’m never made that connection but looking back makes so much sense
OMG This is one of my favorite episodes! It's absolutely horrifying and emotional and I love it for it. When I first saw it I had my jaw down for an eternity. I feel like Carol and Tyrese's duo was underrated, it was only used in this episode if I remember right, and it was amazing to watch them interact together while trying to control a delusional, psychopathic Lizzle. I still cry at the "Look at the flowers" scene till this day. It's one of the things that can just bring tears to my eyes so easily from the sheer emotions compacted in this scene and episode.
Carol and Tyrese put on an acting masterclass 🌟
I don't think either of them had "bad brains" Mika was just young and could've survived, and Lizzie could've been helped but unfortunately they didn't have the resources to help her and ultimately Carol had to put her down for the safety of Judith.
Pretty sure that Lizzie did have a bad brain, literally. Seeing a lot of people saying that she did have a mental illness. Mika, yeah, she didn't really have a bad brain. She just needed experience.
I love thinking back to this episode after we’ve seen Judith grown up (yes even at like 9 years old she’s grown) considering how close she came to death and the Carol saved her life. She’s the best of Lizzie and Mika
"The Grove" is indeed one of the best episodes in The Walking Dead. The plot twist with Lizzie killing Mika is amazing, and it shocked me in a way that only one episode has done before and that was The Rains of Castamere from got. also, the episode showcased some of the best acting in The Walking Dead, which often goes unnoticed. Chad L. Coleman and Melissa McBride absolutely killed it in the episode, making it easily one of my top 10 fav. btw amazing video.
This is probably my favorite acting in the series from Melissa McBride. When Lizzie is yelling at her for killing the walker you can see the look on her face like “omg this kid is insane” and it’s so great. Definitely a top 10 episode for me too.
The fact that Melissa Mcbride doesn't get credited for her amazing performance as carol in twd is an insult
Wait why doesn’t she??
@@angelcloudcosplay4141none of the actors really do, it’s due to the show being horror genre, horror doesn’t rlly get recognized at major award shows unfortunately
Chad L. Coleman is a legendary in his roles as Tyrese and Coach from Left for Dead 2. I loved Tyrese already then I learned he was the voice actor for Coach amd his death hurt even more.
He was Coach?! Damn, can't believe I learnt this now. Makes me love Tyreese and Chad even more
the acting from everyone in this episode was incredible. lizzie is one of the most interesting characters in the entire show in my honest opinion
I think Mika could've learned to survive and kill eventually, but she was killed too soon.
That episode changed Carol yet again and made her such a deeper more complex character then she had even been up till that point. This is one of my favorite episodes where not much happens (till the end) along with the one where Daryl and Beth go to the moonshine shack and get drunk, that’s actually one of the best episodes of the series cuz again it pushed Daryl into desperate circumstances that he came out of on the other side as a better person. I am rewatching the series with a first timer and I’m jealous she gets to experience all this for the first time in 2023. Can’t wait till we get to this point in the show! Seasons 4,5,6 were the golden age of the show!
It was one of my favs especially bc of the symbolism. Super dark way of showing their world’s effect on children. The deer symbolized Mika bc it always ran away 😭
I’ll never forget the scene when Lizzy was trying to keep the baby quiet. It was earlier on in the episode and she covered the infant’s mouth. The baby struggled for breath but she kept her hand there. Although she finally stopped and allowed her to breathe, It put me on edge for future scenes with Lizzy because I was now aware of what she was capable of. It was an effective scene in a compelling episode. The writers definitely knew what they were doing
Yeah, that's why I don't think this was wholly mental illness. There was definitely some born-like-that psychopathy in there. She enjoyed the hell out of suffocating Judith.
I would argue "Scars" is actially darker (Espcecially with Michonne pregnant having to murk children) but this episode came before we got there. I feel so much for Carol in this episode as after she has to off Lizzie and make sure Mica doesn't come back, she's alone with the man who's GF she out down and then the grace Tyrese shows Carol in understanding why she did what she did. Just insanely good. Tbh, I think this episode is a large part of why I was thinking effected by the child's death in the first episode of TLOU, the little boy who was infected and they just put down. Lizzie unfortunately was too broken to ever be right, she would be a constant threat to Tyrese, Carol, and Judith. A huge part of what I find so interesting about TWD is cases like Carl vs Judith. Carl still recalls going to school, movies, parent teacher conferences, his birthday, ect. Wheras Judith doesn't have anything but what people tell her was the old world. I think a large part of that might be why Judith was so adamant about helping and staying in the CW. I think she wanted a chance to make memories like Carl had. But back on topic, I think for all the missteps TWD has done over 13 years, its also established and fleshed out ideas I hadn't seen in other zombie movies and tv and for that I think is one of the reasons we tend to go back to it.
The time from losing the prison to finding Alexandria is my favorite era of the show. So many character defining moments , the darkest days the group has seen. Loved the Claimers & Terminus also loved the hospital episodes.
One of the best episodes ever in the series. In my massive binge, most of the series is kind of white noise, but this one stood out hard. Lizzie's writing is some of the best child acting I've ever seen. She's so disconnected from reality yet has that child fear of upsetting your parental figure more than murdering your own sister
Such a good episode and that opening scene with Lizzie playing with a walker was disturbing.
My gosh! This episode broke me, but I cannot overlook the brilliance in its execution. The script, directing, cinematography and phenomenal acting- what an experience. If it wasn't already so hard to watch how adults are dealing with the horrors around them, to watch children in the same circumstances, it's anxiety fuel. Heartbreaking.
I totally agree. This was one of the rare episodes where I was legitimately HORRIFIED the first time I watched it. Not because of “scary” elements but because the plot itself takes such a dark turn that I ended up lying awake in bed for QUITE A WHILE that night.
Man, the darkest moment in TWD was the moment in season 5 after Beth died and the group is so exhausted that they are barely outrunning (out walking, really) the horde behind them. That time of the series after dealing with terminus and the cops truly felt hopeless
Carol has been my all time favorite since the prison arc. She became badass and became realistic in my opinion. She did the tough crap that no one else could, tried to be as strong as she could be for everyone, but ended up breaking down many times throughout the show. She went from this tough woman to one who was just putting up an act to try and be strong for everyone and for herself so she'd never be weak like she used to be with her abusive husband. Then she goes from this to more of a cunning and reliable type of character. Very amazing character in my opinion. She went through so much and lost four people that reminded her of her child Sophia who also died. Five people she loved as kids gone, she is such an amazing character.
So sad. As a mom with a grown child with mental illness, this episode was really, really difficult to watch. My son was diagnosed with schizoaffective/bipolar disease while he was attending college. I always imagined what would happen if there was an apocalypse as he would run out of medication within a few weeks. With the little grasp of reality he has, having no medication would be a nightmare. So sad.
This episode actually delved into issues that made it look less like a comic and more like a realistic human drama. This episode dealt with Apocalypse family issues: Mental illness, how do you deal with a child with psychopathy, weaker children who do not understand the zombie illness. And what every parent deals with, just trying to keep a newborn alive.
An idea for a video is to present a future with Lizzie still alive. Maybe create a mini-series with different people that died, basically what you said about an episode with Carl as a grown man, but with more characters like Lizzie, Eastman, Duane, etc
one for Shane would be crazy
This was a heartbreaking episode and in hindsight, Lizzie and Mika were doomed (as you explained). I'm still torn, though, over which was the darkest episode. There were several episodes to choose from. My choice is Killer Within. Rick's heartbreak at the end left me crying and the entire episode was dark - even a baby's birth means someone had to die. But The Grove is right up there, IMO. Maybe just a fraction of an inch behind Killer Within.
Season 4 just bumped Carol up from the previous seasons. She had untapped potential that was kept away and pushed down. By the previous society and by her husband. Sophia's death in the series made this strong, interesting and relatable, yet sad and scary person. Carol didn't have a mean bone in her body, but she got broken and came back like this.
“We see Carl who sometimes goes too far…”. Nope. Curl did what needed to be done in that situation. He was right, imo. Letting folks live just for them to harbor resentment and come back to k!ll you later when you’re back is turned ain’t the move.
I love this episode. It's heartbreaking. The acting from EVERYONE is incredible. I would have really loved to see more of Mika and Lizzie, but this episode was so powerful.
Honestly, I’ve always loved this episode. It’s so f*cked, but it doesn’t miss a beat and hits exactly where it should. I’d agree and say it’s at least one of, if not the absolute darkest of the show. I gotta say also, it’s kind of a shame Tyreese didn’t last that long in retrospect, because I think Coleman and McBride are great together. And whilst I know she has a loyal fan base and following as an OG, I still find her constantly overshadowed by the likes of Maggie, Michonne, Daryl, etc but I genuinely believe this episode - and really, season 4 as a whole starts this - solidified TV Carol as one of the absolute best characters in the franchise. I know she gets some flack for say season 10 (but people seem to forget the likes of season 8 Daryl/Tara) but she’s simultaneously the character I’d be most wary of getting anywhere near and want to give the biggest hug at the same time. Melissa is phenomenal in this role man, and I hope we still get to see her again soon.
Bottle episodes aren't always great but any Carol centered episode is. For a show with so many great characters she still stands out and above many of the others.
You liked the Carol is cooking a soup episode? ;)
A truly haunting episode. Obviously the most powerful moment is look at the flowers but that eerily calm intro with the inkspots playing is one of the best cold opens ive ever seen. I love the tone and atmosphere of this episode because its truly and utterly disturbing, hopeless and tragic. The boiling pot not so subtly foreshadowing things coming to a head. Ugh its so good
Their entire stay at the Grove felt so… surreal. It was haunting in a way that is not common in the show.
This episodes story was really good and the acting from all the actors was perfect. Carols decision to kill Lizzie was the only right choice if she was prepared to kill her sister she might kill anyone. I also think the episode shows a good depiction of mental illness in Lizzie she definitely had something wrong with her
I like how this episode was base of the comics that actually made it happen in tv and the other thing is this finally made carol realize she wasn’t going to deal with children anymore cause of she fails or they fail at being together or can’t survive with out carol or the groups help in the apocalypses.
Agreed. This one was extraordinarily grim. The older of the two girls in particular was incredible in the role
Carol's character progression is so interesting. She's had to make so many hard decisions and changed so much since her first appearance. That can probably be said about every character, but her story arc felt well developed and I had a strong sense of her character and morals throughout.
I forgot how powerful this show was, especially this episode. Craziest thing is how this aired almost 10 years ago
I couldn’t stop crying at this episode. Lizzie’s story is heartbreaking because she wasn’t a psychopath like people make her out to be. She loved her sister and dad and she loved Carol. She was just a child who has some form of mental illness that she was either born with or developed to cope with the apocalypse. She genuinely thought she could here hear the walkers and believed they were a better form of human. To Lizzie she didn’t kill her sister all she did was help make her the best version of herself. Lizzie also seems to have developed a fascination with death which is explains the dead animals. She’s not fascinated with death because she’s violent she just doesn’t see death the way she should. And mika was such a gentle soul that loved her sister despite knowing something was wrong with her and then the sister she loved so much is the one to kill her. An interesting thing I found about the episode was that they never showed Lizzie killing mika which I think is effective at making the whole thing darker. We don’t know if mika was scared or if her death was quick. Logically it’s most likely mikas death was slow since Lizzie intentionally diddnt touch her brain leaving her to slowly bleed out. That means mika had time to process her beloved sister killed her. I hate when people say Lizzie was evil because to me she was the opposite. She was a very loving child who wanted the best for her family she was simply mentally ill and that not her fault. Lizzie had to die because the apocalypse has no place for her nor did it have a place for mika. The true tragedy of this episode isn’t one sister killing the other, it’s the death of two innocent children.
All psychopaths were once children
@@thetruthandnothingbutthetr6484 Yes but Lizzie wasn't. Otherwise she wouldn't have reacted that way. She most likely had a different mental illness.
@@mariea.8100 where did you get your psychiatric degree from ?
@@thetruthandnothingbutthetr6484 Where did you get yours? you can easily do research. Psychopaths (official term is ASPD) is usually categorized by a lack of empathy, impulse, etc. believing walkers are real, and can talk is not a sign of ASPD. it seems more like she had schizophrenia or something else. That's just my observation.
Great take, the episode where Negan kills Glen is certainly dark, but I'd argue "The Grove" and the episode where Rick kills Shane and Carl kills walker Shane are the darkest episodes from an episodic message standpoint. Both sit very strongly in the concept of not only loss, but also power and betrayal. Very much looking forward to your Supernatural videos as I have been a fan of the show since 2017 and have watched it numerous times since.
This is my favorite episode in the whole series. The ending scene where Carol tells Tyrese and he decides to forgive her is perfection.
Lizzie would be one of those stupid people who would advocate for the rights of zombies because they would consider them "people with different qualities"
Carol lost her biological daughter, she adopted 2 girls who made her happy, one of them ends up insane and kills the sister, carol has to kill the other FINALLY Carol finds another kid to take care of(and we all know that scene)
Bro tyrese is such a good character I was pissed when he died after tyrese didn’t really get attached to another character cuz I knew they was just going to die but I’ve watched the show thru 2times now and going back to certain eps to watch again and I didn’t go back to this one the kids were really well written lizzie was just insane deep down and Melissa Mcbride is just fantastic that’s all to say about her
that recap alone deserves a like, I watched the series almost 5 years ago now, I definitely barely remember these characters
I have watched this show like 6-7 times and I have only watched this episode once
Nothing could have prepared me for this episode and I think it goes into how the children during this time really really go through it… Judith is definitely a survivor and I’m glad that this episode aired it was everything we needed
You NEED to do a video over “the calm before” from season 9. It was the last huge scare of character deaths in the series and all around just a great episode of suspense
he did one on it already, its title says something like “how The Calm Before Delivered the Last Shock of The Walking Dead”
@@jjkilhij9531 oh sick nvm dont mind me yall
He has a playlist of all the episode analysis videos. You can find it there.
it’s literally the novel “of mice and men”. ): so heartbreaking. Lizzie couldn’t live in this world, just like Lennie. it was a mercy. Mica definitely had a chance because she wasn’t delusional. She knew what reality was, and knew her sister was not mentally there. She was a child. Cant blame a child for not wanting to kill a live animal, but she could grasp that walkers were dead. She needed time to be able to come to terms with her new life, because while she never lived without walkers, she knows that the way they live isn’t normal, and they’re forced to grow up so fast. But she didn’t have that chance to learn,, but Lizzie never stood one chance, from the very first scene with her in it you could tell.
Comparing it to the Ben & Billy twins in the comics. You can make an argument that these twins did it better. Like you said, it's just a bad yin-yang, and both are detrimental to people and safe environments. Lizzie caused paranoia at the prison when the rats started turning up. And Mika is just too innocent. On the greater scope like this yea this was a pretty dark episode, plus Carol revealing her twist. Also talking about the burnt walkers from Daryl & Beth's episode was a nice touch. Good way of tying it in on this to far gone episode.
This is still easily my favorite episode from the show. It was just so shocking and emotional, even for TWD standards. They never really replicated the feeling I got from watching this episode in any episode before or after it. It truly is special.
It's been a couple videos that you describe the Governor as a true evil man and the one born with a bad brain. But I really don't understand how he is the one chosen for this role and not Alpha, who killed her husband and beat up her kid. The Governor was described as a pretty standard type of a guy before the apocalypse, having a normal job, who deeply loved his wife and daughter. It was only after his wife died without him having a chance to say goodbye, and after his daughter died because him being who he was. We see this during his conversation with Milton when he tortures him, he says : - What would your daughter think, about what you are ? - She'd be afraid of me, but if I was like this from the start, she would be alive today. To me, he's still one of the best villains in fiction history because where he comes from : he couldn't protect his daughter, so he went full on psycho to make sure that what's his stays his. Hell, he was even afraid of himself like when he, at first, refused to go along with Tara, her sister (I forgot her name lmao) and Meghan, because he could'nt take the risk of caring for someone as he did for his daughter Penny (at least that's how I understand it). And of course, having lost so much and having gone so far down this road made him loose any sense of empathy towards others. So no, to me he's definitely not the one with the bad brain. Alpha and even Beta (a video on him is maybe the one I want the most from your channel please do it please do it), to me, would be more understandable in this role. PS : I'm so thankful that someone decided it was time to go deeper into this beautiful show, thank you for daring speaking your truth about it.
I beleive it was on the talking dead they said this, but the puzzle was on the table throughout shooting and the cast would go over every so often and work on it. When Tyrese and carol were sitting at the table, the director or a crew member came over just before they started shooting and placed the picture of what the puzzle was on the table. It was a picture of Sofia coming out of the barn.
Thrifty!!! I’m so excited to watch this and your “Here’s Not Here” video. It feels like you were gone for a little while, but that’s only because you were covering other content. Thank you so very much for continuing to create TWD content. I enjoy it so much! 👏👏👏
The thoufht of being born in this time prompted the thought, what if there was pregnancy complications and the child died in the womb. Would it start earing the inside of the mother? Subsequently turning her too.
that one episode where maggie started having cramps or whatever i fr thought the baby was eating her alive from the inside
What a terrifying concept
This is why the world in Walking Dead is actually dead and the nonsense about rebuilding it is always just nonsense until they find a cure.
Babies don’t have any teeth and they can barely move not strong enough to do any damage.
@countchompula1896 some do. And also, they developed nails around 12 weeks. All it takes is a scratch 🤷♂️
Bro this is so weird I was literally just rewatching that episode last night and thought about you making a vid on it. My prayers have been answered.
I first saw this episode in subway and when Lizzie killed Mica I was surprised and had my jaw open to the ground. People were looking at me as if I was crazy
Thank you for doing this episode!!! You said it perfectly this episode showed so many dark elements that many shows won’t dare touch. This episode for me is one of my favorite and most memorable.
I wasn’t a big fan of The Walking Dead, but my older sister was and I’d watch new episodes with her sometimes. She’d catch me up on what had happened in episodes I missed, and I’d engage in theorizing and discussing the episodes with her when they were over. I remember we watched this one together, and it was one of the few episodes I never forgot about.
I think the "The Grove" the amazing piece of television cuz u see so much in these girls/ I feel u can see so much of ppl u know in Lizzie: confident and adamant in their belief, adamant to the point they will inflict harm to literally anyone around them, it doesn't matter who gets hurt as long as "I'm right," and her sister more gentle and uneven soul who needs to learn to be more rough to carry on. I think Mika had a more chance of survival because she had a "benefit of a doubt" to everything, while Lizzie killed her, but if u think about who doesn't trust their next kin, you don't look at ur brother/sister at that age and thing "yeah, they will totally kill me". I think if Mika have outlived her sister, she would have been a capable survivor.
I remember when Carol told her to look at the flowers and i immediately thought of my Highschool English class. Of mice and men made me so sad and I knew Lizzie needed to die but at that moment I remembered how they are both just mentally ill and it’s so sad.
I'm so happy somene is talking about this episode, it was so dark. One thing I noticed was also how Mika says to Carol something in the line of "I'm not like Lizzie, I'm not messed up" - I took this as her saying that she knows something is off about her sister.
I LOVE this episode. Made me fall in love with Carol who was already one of my favored characters but I would always assume she might die or something and dynamic between Tyreese and Carol was amazing
There was something wrong with Lizzie for a while. While they were still at the prison, Mika tells Carol that she's not messed up like her sister.
The Grove to me is the best episode in the entire series. It manages to be *so* disturbing and unsettling, with characters that didn’t have any of the plot armor that the main cast had, meaning there was *actual* stakes of who would live and die. And yet, none of it is cheap. They don’t rely on a bunch of gore and screaming, it’s just carried by the writing and premise alone. The gradual horror at realising what the little girl Lizzie was *actually* alluding to, how much it just crushed Carol… Hearing Lizzie sob, thinking she was in huge trouble as Carol just told her to look at the flowers, before squeezing that trigger. It actually disturbed in the best way possible. I was desperate to see what was next. It’s also an episode that I genuinely think you could show to anyone, even if they never watched the previous seasons, and it would still leave a massive impact. It’s a genuine masterpiece of an episode in my opinion.
Whenever I would rewatch the series this was the only episode I could never being myself to rewatch. Just listening to your recap of it brings tears to my eyes.
This is one of my favorite episodes AND seasons. "Still" and "after" are my other favorites. This season was incredible. I actually loved that this season dealt with individual stories and not the main storyline. "The grove" provoked so much real intense emotion in me and still does. It is tragic while being beautiful at the same time.
The Grove is one of my all time favorite episodes! It’s brilliant and emotionally charged. Melissa and Chad both gave phenomenal performances!
Man I love when you do walking dead videos it makes my day. My favorite tv series of all time. Thank you for these
I remember watching this being like 13 and Mika was my favourite and this episode CRUSHED me and made me realise how good this programme was, such a good episode.