To spawn or not to spawn- that is the question.
In this video, I discuss the current state of TF2's spawn rooms and what makes them work.
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the rock with the mad milk though
Not mentioned in your video, but for attack-defend maps, you can resupply as engineer in the forward spawns by edging yourself at the door and changing load-outs, via the load-out binds, as a way to resupply for buildings.
LED my friend create the good map the name is Podzolic , can you see?
I am now cursed with the knowledge that the badwater benches levitate
i am one with the knowledge that the badwater benches levitate
I am indifferent to the knowledge that the badwater benches levitate
I have no knowledge about the badwater benches levitating
Here's more cursed knowledge The water cooler in Red's second spawn in steel to the left is facing the wrong way
Oh yes, 0/10 map, game breaking.
Valve, please give us an update, PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO TALK ABOUT THE F*ING SPAWN ROOMS.
We just got the 64 gb update 🤓
There's nothing that hasn't been talked about about TF2 already. TF2bers are starving for content.
What years without a major update does to a mf
"omg people are out of ideas" My guy, this is breaking down the core design philosophy of the game. If you can't appreciate that, I'm guessing those 8 minute 1 second clip dumps called "CASUAL IS WACKY" would be more your speed
@@Great_Bluenigh on 2 decades of the same memes and countless deaths to random crits have rotted the brain such that TF2 players are incapable of high level critical thinking. I reckon you probably get a lot of comments like this on your more analytical videos. Love your work as well.
The Mountain Lab spawn also has a nice bit of environmental storytelling included, with the airboat apparently being the means by which the BLU team arrived.
that gives me some old de_nuke vibes with the van crashed into a gate and a dead guard in the booth near T spawn
@@dermeister8787 de_train has a similar arrival for the terrorist team.
Enclosure also has a neat little detail where you load the cart onto an airboat on stage 2 and you see the airboat behind you in spawn on stage 3.
you didn't have to make the thumbnail go so damn hard
Counterpoint: Spawn
It's eternity in there...
@@Nykomilemesis blue mentioned let's goo
@@JangoLibre Emesis red when??
@@Reimu__Hakureiemesis purple when?
The basement spawn rooms in 2fort with no spawn points 💀
Those are perhaps some of the creepiest rooms
Those are resupply rooms, as the map originally shipped without the health and ammo packs in the basement.
It's an elevator, if you switch classes while in there you go up to one of the spawn rooms
@@ronaid-with-an-inever thought of it like that, but there’s no elevator door in either of the spawn rooms that would connect to the basement
@@syco9008 emesis blue:
The spawn room is where I spend the most of my time in tf2, besides the respawn counter.
I like spawn rooms that tell you a story
when the emesis is blue
When the Spawn is Camped
emesis blue
Spawn rooms are my favorite places in a map aesthetically. Especially Mossrock's Blu spawn takes the cake. (Monster Bash is a close second)
I didn’t mention the Halloween or Christmas maps, but there are some great candidates there as well
I think DeGroot Keep's spawn rooms are also really good, especially Blu's. Lots of nice storytelling in that one, plus it has two exits, and even training dummies for target practice!
I think the bland spawnrooms is an intentional choice to push players out into the battlefield. Most of the nice looking spawns are the ones that you have to wait in during setup.
That's probably a fair assessment, but one can't help but feel in some cases that the forward spawn rooms are kinda squeezed in as an afterthought, since it's an easy mistake as a map maker to think that spawn rooms aren't as big as they really are.
badwater spawn , slow fall damage kills lol
Really glossed over the fact Blu first spawns are so detailed are because Blu spends over a minute in them in setup.
0:08 you could also pick a good map and talk about it for 12 hours
Never
badwater@@LEDs
@@LEDs dustbowl
@@LEDs Do you know what video he's referencing ?
Everything about TF2 has been talked about already. Coverage about the game has been burnt into a crisp.
I like a lot of the non immersive spawnrooms because you basically are walking out of a small building or functionally a closet, anything that isn't a small generic functional box or really small like the 5cp one ways, but something like the chinese koth map is a great storage room.
Kong King's spawn rooms are alright, but imagine if they were speakeasies with poker tables! Something to fit the early neon-noire aesthetic of the map.
Kong King could definitely be much better.
@@irregularassassin6380 Nah, too much detail for something you spend maybe 5 seconds in, tops. For BLU payload and A/D spawns detail can go a long way because you have to sit in there for upwards of a minute, but there's no point in making spawns look nice if you're just going to walk out of there the second you spawn in.
10:22 Looks like he's in the barrel today.
brickiest brick in the barrel
I knew that this benches had something wrong with them. Good to finally know what exactly.
You forgot to mention it feels eternity in there and it's longer than you think.
I’ve seen the other side. It’s longer than you think.
9:17 Bloodwater version has that door... and it was very brilliant idea, also everyone would go to that way too.
2:51 🪨
The 5cp spawn rooms only unlock when you control the middle and forward point. They're nerfed precisely to avoid the home field advantage that the defending team gets. It's inconsistent. Also by making the rooms exit-only they can avoid complicated door logic since the door just needs to open when someone's inside. The hypothetical entrance clip doesn't have to be toggled on and off based on which point is active (which could potentially get the door stuck open), or risk someone being able to enter a spawn point behind the points that are being contested.
Also what if there isn't an engineer? How is the team supposed to "just take a teleporter"
some maps have the forward spawn spawns located 1 point behind, so when you capture mid you spawn at your 2nd point, when you capture the enemy teams 2nd point you spawn at mid i dont see why oneway doors are necessary on maps like these other than to prevent hiding in spawn in comp, but coldfront is in no way a 6s map and its full of oneway spawns, and process IS a 6s map and yet the spawnrooms are exploitable, you can actually hide in a forward spawn even after you lose the point, and ive seen a dude actually do that. as far as i know, this has never caused an issue in an actual 6s match oneway doors feel like a very aggressive way to prevent engineers from playing the game until either team gets pushed back to last
Tell me why badlands 1st forward spawn is always unlocked then. And its got a resupply cabinet.
3:00 because it's a balancing feature. In 6s there's such a thing as "sacrifice", or just "sac". Basically to avoid stalemate, while pushing into enemy last, one of your player can rush in, get destroyed, switch to sniper to get some space and try to drop enemy medic, or spy to make unexpected play. There's a period after sac, when pushing team has to play 5v6, and it gives a chance for enemy team to countersac or make any play with lower risk. To switch you need to get into spawnroom, you need someone to open a door for you, or sac by yourself. If fowardspawns would be open all time, there won't be any risk at all, becuase enemy team won't know about 5v6. and basically there's no risk at all for pushing team, cuz thier player can get back into fight real quick, instead of waiting "15 seconds to respawn". Also. It will be a nightmare for flank players to play behind enemy lines, when there is fully working resuply room for enemies. There's no cabinet, but resuply bind exists. (also you can build as engie in foward anyway, just don't leave it fully). (no fowardspawns = stalemate, 5cps are stalematy enough in pubs already, cuz pablo.2017 and his friends are building 5 sentries on mid)
Almost sounds like 5cp is an inherently flawed game mode.
@@pepperonipizza8200its flawed for casual.
@@pepperonipizza8200 5cp does not work in casual, because heavy, engie and sniper presents on map all the time, w/o class limits. But in 6v6 it's the most balanced and fun gamemode. Back-n-forward action.
But the walk to the forward spawn is like 7 seconds. And it will be another 7 seconds back. It's such a long walk that visiting forward spawn might as well be respawning. You just don't have to deal with the +-5 seconds spawn waves can induce. The logic is kinda flawed. By the way, how do people deal with the fact that badlands has a forward spawn that can always be accessed and holds a resupply cabinet? How does that work?
@@redstonewarrior0152 you counted it wrong: ~6 seconds to sac, 15 to spawn and another 10-15 just to walk to the frontline again (if u want to offclass u swap to spy or sniper, not just to scout or solly). Istead of 7 to rocketjump/run as scout to spawn, and switch. Badlands is not being played in comp since like 2017 ig.(?) Even tho, some maps has special versions just for comp. Like, granary_pro is more optimized for 6s, has some objects moved/removed, badwater_pro for highlander has 1 more forwardspawns, and new routes, prcoess splash fixed. So when comp tf2 oldheads were playing badlands, they most likely used badlands_pro version of the map w/o this forwardspawn bug and some other features, like fixed splash on spire.
I always loved Thundermountains Spawnrooms, with how several of them have nice views of the map, or they have a window where you can peak and see ''your team'' (the models) doin funny stuff
Yeah, they're nice
Forward spawns are empty for a reason. They're meant to be light on visuals so that the only thing in your immediate vision is the spawn door. The final spawn rooms on 5cp maps are often just a bare room and don't allow you back inside in order to subconsciously keep gameplay flowing. This is the same reason why maps are more detailed in the playable space but nearly everything out of bounds is empty fields. It can actually hurt readability to have too much detail in spaces, and the source engine has a strict brush and faces limit, so sometimes mappers have to keep less important areas sparse for that reason.
It is a vague memory, but one of the past favourite spawn rooms had to be from a lost and forgotten custom map call "Koth_basement_v4" Was made by a L4D2 mapper. The Tf2 maps they made were always very... unique. Basement was one of the most claustrophobic in a serious way maps I've ever seen. They also worked on a 5cp map that was 5 different skyscrapers and a territory control map where the red spawn was a lighthouse directly in the middle. I was their only playtester at the time, but I vividly remember these maps and how you could tell a l4d2 mapper made them, they felt so damn weird. But the l4d2 philosophy of "making saferoom interesting and fun to exist in for long periods of time carried over to the spawn rooms. I really wish I could tell you where to find them, but it is all lost media. The download link is gone, but you can still find vids of the skyscrapers and the basement.
the doors are one way on 5cp so that it doesn't make the point easily defendable. If the team defending mid on badlands had constant access to a resup cabinet you would just never be able to retake it lol
I’m still bummed they never used the class specific spawns. It’d be so so cool to have a dedicated sniper spawn on some payload maps.
Agreed
For engineer: most spawn rooms let you build just outside the door so you can stand inside and refill your metal by either changing a weapon or binding `item_loadpreset 0` to a key and pressing it. It's really trivial to have one direction spawn rooms when the Eureka effect can also teleport you in with ease.
Some maps like process have func_nobuild brushes in the way so you can’t build while holding the door open. The eureka effect is definitely a good way to get around it though
You know, emesis blue tried to warn us about the respawn machine
The mad milk 40 seconds in had me take a double take
this was such a great video, good insights and really funny clips and tidbits that complement the narration without distracting from it
An outrageous fact is the Halloween version of Badwater, bloodwater, has it's side exit available to go through
I think Dustbowl's spawn rooms are also really great aesthetically. It really shows the early-tf2 era art-style that they talked about in the developer commentary, where at the start you see more "natural" settings with BLU and RED trying to disguise their operations but as you go further the mask starts slipping off... and you see in dustbowl as it gets more and more industrialized. In this case the spawn rooms having giant missiles underneath them. Also, Hydro's spawn room underneath the satelite dish is very unique. It's a long, round corridor that doesn't ressemble anything else in any other map. Even though it's a bit barren, it gets points for being unique. I love little topics like these and I think that map making in source engine is an art form, I wouldn't mind more videos talking about small and overlooked details like these.
This is simply incredible! I love your videos, the way you find little details in tf2 maps and also tell us some interesting facts really captures me. Good video, LED
Those Spawn Rooms better be good, after all, the time you spend in them is longer than you think, it's eternity in there.
I really love the trippy stuff bhind the one blue spawnroom on the Vutville
this was a really fun video!!! i was thinking about this topic the other day with how some of borneo's spawnrooms look, and how you could add detail to then in order to flesh them out and give life into otherwise boring rooms. i imagine some spawns are rather baren due to either optimisation or then being added late into development, or even afterwards during playtesting, thus not receiving as much attention. even some very old maps have interesting layout changes (dustbowl didn't have the dropdown on stage 2 blue spawn and the stairs right outside red's shortcut on stage 3, hence why they sometimes feel a lil strange), so i imagine it'd be a pain to decorate an entire spawn only to rearrange everything or scrap it entirely.
the moan at the "show love" mention 💀
I didn’t know a rant about spawn rooms could be THIS entertaining
I love your videos. They are well researched and informative along with having plenty of comically exaggerated examples supporting your points. Keep it up!
Thank you!
I love spawn buildings in Planetside 2. It's a design challenge to accomodate a 4v10 fight and 40v40 at the same space, and give protection from all kinds of vehicles. They are almost open, giving view advantage to defending side. And lack of details whisper: don't sit in the spawn room, go out! Tech plant spawn building has an underground pipe system, which gives access to an entire base. But it's also sort of hidden out of normal sight when you run out, which makes the normal way out more popular. Isamir underground bunker facilites have many temporary spawns; lighted arrows on the floor to show the way; ability for attackers to shut the main doors, so defenders are forced to take the vents out. Interesting base to play on.
The vehicle protection part usually doesn't work, and I'd argue all other locations don't have much more detail than the spawns
Ngl, desperately fighting your way out of your spawn room as the timer until the facility is capped ticks down truly is a feeling everyone should experience once. Espetially if they make it.
Great video, im gonna keep in mind all this when making spawnrooms from now on
hello ethosaur, funny seeing you again :]
5cp makes sense tbh it would give forward spawners way too much advantages so making them "boring" is intended.
Great, informative, entertaining video as always :D I think it'd be interesting if you made a video on the original six maps that TF2 launched with (2Fort, Dustbowl, Granary, Well, Gravel Pit, Hydro), how they've changed, and what we can learn from analyzing TF2's map design and art style back in 2007 compared to now.
It's great seeing someone else who enjoys looking into this games little map details. This game really is one of the most interesting mp games even from a map design standpoint
Mountain Lab and Gravel Pit are so comfy
My favorite has got to be the player destruction map that came last smissmas. The spawnrooms there are gorgeous and interesting.
Another point to make about specifically first spawns for blu in a/d cp and payload maps is that players are gonna spend a while there twiddling their thumbs waiting for setup to end. Its great to have some "player enrichment" for BLU to pass time with. Visuals help, but so do random things like adding stuff for players to jump and climb onto, or physics props to mess around with or even a deathpit for people to hurl themselves into for fun.
The Halloween version of Badwater has a second door on blu's second spawn point
Because I *only* play attack/defense, I know some funny details you can do in the spawns of basically every map of the game mode. Here's a big list: Dustbow: - in the first stage (blue spawn) you can be on top of a lantern in that right corridor with the rail, as soldier, demo, etc.. - in the second stage (red spawn) you can be at the top of both of the resupply cabin as heavy, spy, etc... Just get on the bench and crouch+jump into a metal bar in the wall - in the last stage, you can do the item above in the blue team! Mountain Lab: in Blue Spawn, you can be at the top of the "wood frame" of that inner metal door as heavy, spy, etc... The jumps are quite tricky, but you can do partner taunts there, too! Egypt - in the first stage (blue spawn) you can be at the top of the resupply cabin in a way that looks like you're floating. You can do partner taunts while "floating" too, but he hitbox is quite precise, so people will eventually fail at the taunt, and that's funny! - in the first stage (red spawn) you can be stuck in a corner by jumping into a torch (using some boxes or the height of the stair). Partner taunts works too and it's good to confuse new players. in the last stage (blue spawn), in the right door, you can jump into the middle of the pillars to exit the spawn faster while the door is going down. Just saying this because I rarely see other people using this and I think it's useful. Gravel Pit: in the blue spawn, if you know you're gonna lose the game, you can do a rocket jump / sentry jump to be at the top of a "light pole". Nobody looks up there! Junction: - At the blue spawn, you can be at the top of both resupply cabin by doing some jumps and strafes. You can further jump to a light switch to be in a even funnier place. - At the blue spawn, going towards A, there's a computer that is not solid, you can hide there and do partner taunts as well. - in the red spawn, you can switch loadouts if you are in the base but not in same room as the resupply cabin. I wonder why that happen... Gorge: - in the first blue spawn, you can be at the top of the resupply cabin as heavy, engi, etc.. And even above the vent for soldier and scout. - you reach the second blue spawn as pyro with the detonator. Additionally, there's a tree right after the spawn that you can stand on it, as any mobile class. Nobody looks up there, and you can camp the point and the spawn from there. Mercenary Park: - In the first blue spawn, you be at the top of the resupply cabin as heavy with the GRU. You can also reach the metal bars at the ceiling as pyro with the detonator.
I feel like the forward spawns in Badlands are also tailored to their environment (for the most part). It's in middle of no where so it make sense for it to not have any tech and just be an empty ass room. And I'm purely talking aesthetics, im sure there are balance reasons too. And one more thing, if the map maker made every single spawn point in a map, as opposed to usually focusing on making the last point special looking, then that would destroy the charm I feel like. If everything was designed to feel special then nothing would...
Me? I'm a simple man. Just a guy. I think my favorite type of room design is the "safe room" An employee break room, a spawn room, you name it. Just a small decorated little space where you can take a break from it all, shielded from whatever oposes you, temporarily. This video is truly for me
2fort has that funny hole on the floor as a spawn """door""" for one of the spawns. It's just hilarious to drop behind an enemy passing by and backstabbing him 😂
Shoutout to Hardwood BLU first spawn. One of the few times I made sure to convince other people to turn around, and admire the vista.
I'm not a tf2 mapper, but this video made me interested in making spawn rooms, but not just for maps, but just on their own tbh
Blues second spawn on dustbowl was so bad that they added a drop down on the left because it was really easy to sticky spam the trench and then move into spawn camp. It happened all the time on ps3
I think all spawn rooms, or at least areas accessible before the round starts, should have little build zones for offensive engineers to actually do something before the round starts
Would be interested to see remakes of these maps' spawns in a competition or something
It would be!
Tbf a lot of the competitive pro versions of maps have some of these changes, main one coming to mind is the second exit added to the second blu spawn on badwater
My headcannon for the Thunder Mountain is that it's all imagined from the mind of an asylum patient in a padded cell. You can see the real world seeping in through the facade when looking up at the ceiling in BLU's spawn room to find the white padded tiles.
The comp version of Badwater (and Bloodwater also does) uses that door on Blu's second spawn
9:10 there's a halloween version of badwater that includes a door here and it's soooo much better. I've never understood why its not on the normal version too...
"As far as spawn rooms go, that's all I have to say..." Somehow, I doubt that
There’s always something to expand upon 😉
If I recall correctly, back in the day, changing class triggered a suicide anyway (no swift switch if you're in the spawn room area), so it's only the resources or loadout change issue for these old 5-CP maps. Teleporters are also optional there due to how important spawn-to-point timings being adjusted regardless of what the players do as the contested point changes is.
That extra door on badwater is actually in the pro version of the map
Damn, now I have the urge to boot up random maps in singleplayer and explore them with noclip.
I agree with the window thing, and the resupply cabinet. If the only players which can take advantage of a respawn room are those with binds which will automatically restock them or change loadouts, then that's a failure on the map designers' part.
good looking spawn rooms are especially nice because you spend the entire setup time in there, at least on blu team
I like your videos about tf2 maps and mechanics, even if its just walls or doors
9:16 this is actually a thing on the pro version of this map
Of course they are important, especially on dustbowls because you, gonna see this room a LOT
So, idk if someone mentioned this, but the pro version of badwater actually uses that blocked off door as an extra spawn door. And yes its very nice to have sometimes
If you can sneak over to that borneo spawn room, it is one of the easiest to spawn camp
9:14 The halloween version of the map made that door functional so i don't think it would very game changing to do it in the base map.
Stil should helps it
On some competitive versions of the badwater 2nd attacking spawn, that door you mentioned does actually work. I played it a few times in highlander and it was good. Should be in the normal map
the scout at the end lol
🥛
Gorge's 2nd spawn can be problematic for BLU too, if you're going full Caberknight there's zero way to restore your Caber since the spawn is too high off the ground lol
I think the spawn rooms at 6:03 are just fronts, like how RED is disguised as a bakery in Expiration Date
The first forward spawn on cp_badlands is an anomaly, as you can enter it whenever you feel like doing so.
"(the three exits on Gorge) make it virtually impossible for Red to spawntrap." Clearly you've never seen how stupid me and my other teammates have been, while how insane some other players are.
0:34 💀
Tbh you kinda lost me with that one-way spawn complaint
Why? He's not wrong
"I know that the one-way nature of this door is intentional [...] but I don't understand why" *They are not resup rooms. It's just a spawn.* The reason they exist is to skip the walk across the map and sustain pressure on the team defending last. If you could go back in to resupply or switch classes that would be a reward for capping mid and second, instead of something to make the mode fast and fun. It's 5cp, you just don't play this mode like that, it's not viaduct You _can_ "hold" the door from inside for someone and it happens in sixes on rare occasions, but that's balanced out by the fact you need to dedicate a respawning player to the task.
Ok, and then you talk about leaving the spawn as it is and using teleporters? Like, that's just not how the game is designed, you're supposed to be back in the fight after a few seconds from respawning. You kinda allude to the point that this change would increase the viability on engi on 5cp (aside from his use on last and full battle-engi otherwise) but it's viability by necessity, not because the class is suddenly more fun. Like, if you need a teleporter to play the game, that leads to whining about nobody playing engi, not players choosing engi because the map is fun to play for him
Agree to disagree
Real talk; What is to stop the community from patching these maps ourselves? Fix all the issues like you had mentioned in Dustbowl video, then host them on a private server? Maybe make a git of development so there is a hub for patch notes and version history.
Some people have done this to a limited extent, but I don't think it's worth the hassle just to play on community servers unless you run a large chain like Uncletopia or something
I'm glad someone finally brought more attention to these horrible spawns
Spawn room flavor matters alot cause in a game like tf2 you're gonna see it alot. But I like how you brought up Upward last, which has those details despite it being a point most players will be rushing out of. It doesn't become a padded cell when you're trapped in here by the enemy team, but feels like you're trapped in an office, so ig not much better, lol.
0:34 Surprised that no one talked about this Edit: I stand corrected lmao
In gamemodes like payload and attack/defend, the spawn room is a permenant checkpoint. Once BLU capped a point, RED cannot reverse it. But in 5cp, the spawn room is temporary, it can be changed back and forth. Therefore, I don't think it is fair to compare them directly.
It makes engineer less useful
My favorite spawn rooms are the ones in Team Fortress Classic, because they have security turrets. You never know what kind of exploits people will come up with.
9:07 but because this spawn is only available after you've capped the second to last point, your team has so much control over the area in between the next point and spawn that if someone is spawncamping they had to do a major flank
Sulfur has the best spawn room in the game, and the RED spawn room is also pretty well made since it has four exits.
I heard that Valve allowed map makers to place invulnerable buildings in maps, and I wonder if that would be a decent way to help prevent spawn camping on certain maps. Similar to TFC having the spawn room sentry guns as the enemies were able to go inside if the door was open.
3:12 You missed the Eureka Effect.
I did
I guess some mappers forget that aside from workshop images or videos, this is every players first experience of any given map Making spawnrooms good is even more important for blue in asymmetrical gamemodes, as setup times can be very boring with nothing to do for blue
Pretty sure Blu's first spawn on Pier has a hidden disco room through the vent on the back wall. That's a great spawnroom to me!
The first room is brilliant, it's the middle ones that lack, in my opinion
3:12 I think you overlooked the approach that I personally use with one-way (and no-restock) spawnrooms, - having a loadout change keybind will respawn you with full ammo, so as long as you can build within reach from spawn entrance, lack of supply/door is not a problem. It is very much a non-obvious and stupid mechanic though.
Some spawnrooms have func_nobuild brushes surrounding the bottom of the door, making this impossible.
Surprisingly Bloodwater, halloween version of Badwater, have this second door on second spawn
All I got to say is if you played Wutvill before, you would start to notice these things.
I love Wutville
Truly the greatest map.
Rock !! and.. whater on top.. ? YEYY
On the subject of spawnrooms, I consider Snakewater's RED spawn to be absolutely terrible, solely for the fact that it has only a singular resupply locker, placed in the furthest possible distance away from the first few exit(s).
ngl I play engineer quite a lot, and the lack of resupply cabinets in some spawn rooms drives me crazy.
If you think about it, ut make sense that reds spawn rooms are less decorated because they can leave the spawn instantly during setup, but blu stays in spawn
I think the reason why there are one way spawn rooms is to prevent them to be exploited. If you've noticed, these spawn rooms are often put directly in front of a certain control point.
Technically dustbowl did get an update adding stairs next to the drop-off point of red spawn allowing you to get to the upper part of the narrow hallway. At least it was for the PC version sadly not the one in the orange box for the Xbox 360 and PS3