Former Sub-Postmasters Respond To Ex-Fujitsu Worker Speaking Out | Good Morning Britain
The Post Office scandal reaches a fresh landmark today as the final submissions of Phase 4 of the Horizon Inquiry are heard. Phase 5 - which will see former Post Office chief executives including Paula Vennells and Adam Crozier called to the witness box - is due to start in April.
Former Sub-postmaster Lee Castleton says he and his family are still 'picking up pieces' of their lives after he was ordered to repay a shortfall of £25,000 as part of the Post Office scandal.
Christopher Head, once the youngest sub-postmaster in the country who was wrongly accused of theft and was hounded for £88,000 for almost five years.
Broadcast on 02/02/24
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#GMB #fujitsu #postoffice #mrbates #mrbatesvsthepostoffice #horizon
I simply cannot get my head round the lying and deceit of the Post Office & Fujitsu directors. They should all be taken to court, convicted and thrown in jail.
Jail's just for little people. Big people get years of public enquiry followed by more years "serious consideration" of the findings before a decision to prosecute is made. And if they are eventually prosecuted, they'll be defended by Sir Archibald Twizzleton-Womble QC, who charges more an hour than any postmaster earns in a year, but these guys can afford that no sweat.
summed up right.@@probro9898
In addition to convicted and thrown in jail they all should also have all of their assets seized under the proceeds of crime act.
No. They should first immediately be held in custody on remand, pending a thorough investigation...
@@probro9898 stalling for years and then saying they can no longer prosecute due to the length of time passed is a common trick they use
Stop calling it compensation! It's money that was knowingly stolen from them via fraudulent means.
What baffling is the Fujitsu and Post Office were willing to jail every postmaster in the country no matter the cost just to keep them quiet
No it was to keep the company's name in good order to the public at any cost ............
This needs to be called out for what it is…theft, fraud, bullying and manslaughter !
And perjury
debbiereigate705 Yes indeed , but somehow I can't see that ever happening , the government and the civil service will do their utmost to protect themselves and the PO management, one aspect of this whole scenario is that some members of government from both parties knew that the postmasters were innocent yet did absolutely nothing thus addio to the cover up , this alone is the overriding reason that they will do everything in their power to absolve themselves of any blame . We , the so called ordinary people can be treated with total distain , they look upon us as expendable except for taxation and a vote once every five years.
i'm shocked you tube allowed you to say tha .with out judgment.
@@andydudley1775 because it is the truth!!
People definitely need jailing over this.
They were but it was the wrong people behind the prison bar's and it's a disgrace.
Minimum per post master should be £5,000,000 with no costs no lawyers ripping them off. It should put the post office and Fujitsu on the bankrupt list.
All lawyers fees to be paid by the post office also.
@@alansharman3644 Agreed. The lawyers are doing brilliant work on behalf of their clients, and deserve to be paid.
£5000000 compensation, all ‘reclaimed’ money returned x3, plus £1000 a week for any time spent in prison. But any compensation really means nothing without successful prosecutions of Post Office and Fujitsu executives and staff involved.
User-xq6me6pd7q yes indeed , and keep the tax man's greedy paws out of any compensation, Fujitsu should dig deep into it's vast pockets and provide more than adequate funds for those wrongly blamed for this despicable fiasco , the Post Office is employing a bunch of slimy Lawyers who will dodge and dive all the while charging obscene amounts of cash , in this case taxpayers, if anyone is prosecuted it will be a miracle the so called authorities look after their own.
The level of compensation offered to these two ex postmasters is derisory and insulting, the post office are still trying to rip these innocent people off, having already ruined their lives.
Their 2023 accounts showed they'd halved the reserve for compensation. They'd better get rid of it completely and comment that the liability is substantial, HM Treasury please note.
Post office and Fujitsu need to be jailed for what they did to these people!
At least repaid and compensated ..they make 8 billion in profit a year!!! They can afford to pay them for what they have cost them! And should be paying them fhen for their suffering as well.
Never again must bonuses be on offer on ANY Government contract EVER.
The government used to have its own IT teams - however the government at the time decided that this wasn't any good and so decided to privatise. So they put the work to big companies who took the staff on and then added costs on for their profits. Most of these companies were not UK owned to the profits went abroad. The good staff got better jobs and left. So the systems were supported by less able people. Systems were developed under contract and were accepted before they were ready so that the contracts could be paid. As anyone who works in IT will tell you systems are released with errors which may take years to come to light. If you don't believe this why does you PC and phone get regular updates to fix errors. Help desk staff are often on performance related pay based on meaningless measures of performance - quite often the number of calls dealt with. So they are under pressure to close calls without resolution by 'fobbing off' the caller. Somebody should have been looking at the calls raised to see if there was a pattern.
One cannot help but Wonder, if this Scandal is "Yet another?" government project aimed at rubbishing the Royal mail post office, so as to Sell it all off to gang of FOREIGN PIRATES, who will, as ever,... Run it into the ground!!! "Just like Water, gas, electric, insurance, etc etc.
Taxpayers money doesn’t effect the people giving money away, time it was altered to getting rid of dead wood or non combatants, ie the house of dose (lords) jobs for the boys that just clock in for their wage.
Best of luck with that.
Jail is the only answer. Justice must prevail
We had a Fast Track for PPE. People were getting HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS within weeks. There is money available to pay. Just not the will.
They can get in the queue behind the contaminated blood, (which Rishi & Co voted against) Grenfell, & Windrush victims still owed compensation. This gov is an absolute disgrace
Absolutely! don't forget about the Hillsborough victims.@@1inchPunchBowl
the govt are involved in this by virtue of non faesance!! they abdicated their responsibility over the po!! that needs to be made perfectly clear and helped po and fujitsu behave as criminals
I'm crying watching these guys. Poor buggars 😢
Keep telling your story.ordinary people of this nation are with you.
They the government and the post office are still treating this poor people with distain. They deserve all the compensation they have asked for, and deserve. Shame on them.
As the son of a sub post master, I'm honestly heart broken that the people you were supposed to call for assistance, would not or could not give guidence or help. My parents are not tech savvy, yet every week when they did the balance they are playing russian roulette with their financial future. Truly a despicable situation to play honest hard working people in. This whole situation should never have happened it flies in the face of all professional management practices, software practices, moral practices.
Every costimer service department docks people for actually helping the person. There's a huge clog in the system for basic basic help. Even for police if its not an emergency ..the lack of being able to speak to a reasonable decent humann being and jus tget these brick wall npc people. It's dreadful.
Well I am furious.
The fact that Paula Vennels is free to walk the streets just shows the lack of any real purpose the government has of getting the real truth. The women was always first in line to be in the limelight for when accolades were lauded for her or Royal Post, but on this subject, crickets, and denials of knowing anything about it. This women and ALL board members are just as guilty as each other and should be treated as such and put on trial. But that will never happen, as it will drag certain politicians into it as well.
These people need huge amounts of compensation and people responsible should be jailed if companies fold so be it Disgusting that corporations think they above the rest of us ……….
15%! Wow. How low can they get!
as low as a snakes belly!!
Christ ! How long will it take for them to be paid back and also receive damages 💔
They can get in the queue behind the contaminated blood, (which Rishi & Co voted against) Grenfell, & Windrush victims still owed compensation. This gov is an absolute disgrace
@sueleitch the 12th of never comes to mind
Its disgusting .
I cannot believe that BT have not sacked Adam Crozier he is up to his neck in this from his time as CEO of the Post Office.
i be not renweing my contract and i be using this as the exuse im not funding a criminal.
And yet, the English legal system is held up as being the best in the world. The best for whom I ask.
The best for those who have money.
Lawyers.
Lawyers.
@@simonmorris4226 And those who can afford them
When will British Justice catch up with the Post Office and Fujitsu directors?
Piperstart It almost amounts to a certainty that it will not , British Justice is in the gutter and unless a miracle happens it will stay there.the government , civil service and the PO have no real intention of bringing a just and fair level of compensation to the people so badly treated , if , by the remotes chance anyone is prosecuted it will be sacrificial lambs nobody of the top management will ever see the inside of HMP however much they deserve it.
British justice will never catch up with these scumbags because the government at the time were fully aware of what was going on🤔 so it will be drawn out for years and they are hoping it will disappear or the victims will disappear🤨🤨🤨 that’s modern British justice if you’re not part of the elite!
It's very difficult to do when it is a corporation of that size. The complexity of the investigation is huge and they are expert at passing the buck. However I heard the police have now broadened their investigation to cover for fraud as well, so the signs are these guys are that evil woman are running out of time. The net is closing in.
It won't, sadly. A few low and middle-ranking sacrificial lambs will be offered up by Fujitsu and the Post Office and those in charge, including politicians, will breathe a sigh of relief and say "Move on. Nothing to see here".
This is actually a fine example of British justice. The system is rigged so that individuals and companies with vast resources can easily deny justice to those without those resources. It’s not an accident. It was always the plan.
Personally I doubt if the post workers will get their just compensation nor will anyone involved in the scandal be prosecuted. One question that doesn’t seem to be asked is where did the money go which the post workers were illegally made to pay. This is corruption at the highest level and somebody would have got rich out of others suffering. We have thank ITV for making this public otherwise it would be just swept under the carpet and forgotten about.
I’ve known about this since I saw a panorama program a few years ago. I have also watched the drama. The money paid by the postmasters, the money they didn’t owe and that many of them remortgaged their houses for went into profit and ultimately to shareholders. So whilst these poor people were trying to balance their books by remortgaging their houses the shareholders were getting richer. 😡
@@jacquelinemosforth8280 There is only one shareholder; the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy - the UK Government in other words. This is arguably at the very root of the problem.
How could anyone let sub post office workers take the blame when they knew Fujitsu was faulty ,
There's no remorse from Fujitsu OR the PO. Look at how they're dragging out the compensation scheme. Look how often they've deliberately messed up disclosure sometimes hours before a witness is due (which then results in another delay). I have watched some of the inquiry and am absolutely gobsmacked at the level of disdain and deceit from the PO towards their SPMs. It's horrifying that people like this exist. Also, they should have ALREADY been paid back the money the PO stole from THEM! Why has this not happened already? Just PAY it IMMEDIATELY and sort the compensation out as a separate issue. There is literally no logical reason why the money the PO STOLE has not been returned with interest! There should absolutely be jail sentences for ALL those vile liars on the stand. They sent innocent people to jail, but they were innocent. The only guilty party and thieves are the PO!
Well said. 👏
they can only do this because they are being allowed to, thats how they got away with their crimes, no responsible supervision at all!!
Let's see if this country will actually send these real criminals to prison and make them pay back everything that they owe. Every sub postmaster needs to be paid back in full,not talking about compensation,just what they lost because someone has their money and it needs to be given back.
Not going to happen, all of them are covering between each other
@@jjptech yeah I think you are right. Nothing will happen to Paula vennells,she was in on it all with the government at the time so they will protect her,and they won't want here dropping them in it too much either. Let's be honest here if the government cared they would of done something about it years ago.
@@jjptech iT's called the british class system.
Nothing is going to be done absolutely outrageous situation
It's the usual thing, the small man makes an honest assessment and the big corporation offers 15%. Around one seventh. Had the small man demanded 7 times more it would be regarded as dishonest and we would be in more trouble.
Our government is STILL giving billions in contracts to Fujitsu What a joke this country is !! These postmasters were robbed and their reputations destroyed then robbed again by the compensation system. Post office bosses and Fujitsu bosses should be looking at very long prison sentences ( but that will never happen ) !!!
SHOULD HAPPEN if there is any real justice in UK??
If these wronged men & women were in the US they would have had a class action suit that resulted in a judgement of likely millions upon millions to each person, in comp & also punitive damages. These poor people, I hope the ones up top who knew & lied are utterly ashamed of themselves & will one day be held to the highest of account.
They need 20 Years of Back Wages for starters THEN Personal Damages Compensation on TOP !
Not to mention all the money they had to find that didn’t go missing!
And yet not one has been held accountable again its just the skint little people as alan bates put it!!!! Its not a compensation package its a massive insult and terrible to treat people in such away!!!
“shocking” to whom? sounds like normal corporate behavior.
How terrible to admit this but do nothing at the time!
They perverted the course of justice on a massive scale. Peoples lives were destroyed even though it was obvious that these people were innocent. I can’t get my head around it. Even now feet are still being dragged.
Please keep it up with the news stories and discussions, the public pressure and awareness needs to be maintained until the postmasters get the overdue justice that they deserve.
Fujitsu are absolutely stuffed. They will have to pay hundreds of millions if not billions.
And yet they have several other government contracts running into billions - they should be banned from ever again taking our money for their so-called Robust software...
Can Judge Rinder please comment of the fact that there are a massive amount of judges that have blood on there hands.
Shame on the post office, Fujitsu and the Government. Many people need to be jailed for this conspiracy.
Time for the public to BOYCOTT THE POST OFFICE. No more money over the post office counters and close down all post office accounts. Its time for the people of britain to stand up and fight on behalf of the SPM's and force the powers that be to make this wholly right.
thatll help all the postmasters wont it...eeer No?
The problem that the Met are facing now not whether there will be prosecutions or not, but how many individuals will be prosecuted. Certainly the Post Office investigators who gave evidence in the last few weeks have left themselves wide open to prosecution for the actions that they took as individuals. And they are just the ones at the bottom of the food chain.
In any "normal" commercial environment the Post Office would have trialed the software at a few locations before rolling it out across the country. They would also have held Fujitsu accountable for any deficiencies in the software, and not been involved with any cover-up. Once they knew what Fujitsu was doing they should have taken action against Fujitsu. I don't understand why the Post Office took the side of a supplier rather than their employees.
The only reason I can think of would be that Fujitsu used to be ICL, which was a government owned concern.
Because to admit that there were problems would have opened the door to litigation and admit they had done the wrong thing. They dug a hole and couldn't get out of it and just continued to dig themselves in deeper. Part prejudice, part incompetence, part ignorance. Wholly arrogant and in the end corrupt behaviour to cover it all up.
@@lufe8773 I'm sorry but you're missing the point. Fujitsu is just a supplier of software... a supplier that could be sued for damages by the Post Office. There's no need to cover up a failure when it's NOT your failure.
@@bookie5667 Sorry but I thought that Fujitsu employees have been involved in the cover-up. And they were responsible for fixing any problems with the system. Also, they were told to say to any postmaster who enquired that no one else was experiencing problems with the system. Therefore the company would be in part guilty. Anyway have a good day
@@paulbrown4235 You are not quite correct. ICL was not owned by the Government. It supplied hardware to the government and did some development work - this was because the UK had a buy British Policy to support our IT industry. Eventually ICL became part of Fujitsu. The Horizon contract was won by ICL but it was Fujitsu which finished the development.
After all of this, that the PO has any kind of control over the percentages of what these people are due is as criminal as the rest of it.
This is a common problem in the corporate world.
As sad as it is, I don't think this government has the capability, the capacity or the stomach to sort this mess out.
or the competence, they will cover up just like the po
The low (15%) compensation offer is obviously due to an unforeseen Horizon computer 'error'!...
I think we need to look at it at a different angle. Imagine Fujitusu is a car maker and they know the car was faulty and had killed people. Doesn't the car maker get fined directly from the government? Now replace the car with a software who they KNEW is faulty and had killed and wrongly convicted and imprisoned people. At the moment Post Office and Fujitusu are pointing at each other like a Spiderman meme. Both parties are accountable they need to fight against each other to split the cost of the fine so we can compensate people correctly and rightfully.
This is what I have been saying. There are legitimate criminal charges that should be brought against both parties in this affair. Not just civil offences. Any half decent lawyer/investigator could easily compile heaps of evidence to prove their case. The government MUST criminally charge the parties involved.
@@jujutrini8412 100% not sure IF Fujitsu or their senior staff are party donors thought. It gets very dark very quickly
And yet people are prepared to accept (1) inadequate security software systems in their cars which make them easy to steal (2) Driverless cars with potentially dangerous software systems. No software is foolproof.Some developers think 'near enough is good enough'. Before I retired from a career in IT spanning many decades - my teams motto was - 'To every complex problem there is a simple solution and it's WRONG'.
@@chutalotr I 100% agree with you, but Fujitsu/post office is the one who said and lied to the parliament their system was robust.
Are there any postmasters out there that didn’t have a problem.
They were complicit then!
Surely sub postmasters could counter claim for theft against the Post Office for money demanded fraudulently?
disgraceful that employees knew and they did nothing
I've read that some of these IT people working for Fujitsu were leaking their concerns to Computer Weekly, who started doing articles on the Horizon failings, from 2009, I think. A year or two later, Private Eye took up the topic. Both magazines kept covering this, and eventually other media took it up. So we do have some of those employees to thanks for whistle-blowing and those two magazines for persevering with the story.
The post office should pay back the money that was paid to the by the wrongly accused people at least.if they say they haven’t got it where is it?????????
If you can't pay for justice you don't get it in my case guidances over ruled law
Offering a bonus for every prosecution is called a preverse incentive. Accepting it should have been prison...
I know no body would have wanted to lose their job BUT I do think anyone that worked for the Post Office and Fujitsu that knew Horizon didn’t work should have come forward and prevented the SubPost masters going to jail. They do have to take some responsibility for their lack of action.
The Post Office and Fujitsu do. not merit my stamp of approval in this affair
Fujitsu mediocrity on developing software seems chronic, they also developed a computer program in Japan for the My Number ID card system that resulted in the printing of certificates of wrong individuals , it was an scandal in Japan the past year.
This was ICL code. Incompetent UK programmers.
Those call takers should face charges for preventing the course of justice, they knew this while the court cases were on going, and did not inform the courts.
😠😡🤬🤬 beyond shocking & why isnt the PO charged with theft ‘ cos they stole .kept that money …❓❓❓ why theft gets punished , jail time 😡❓
So many innocent lives ruined over a refusal to admit a computer system was flawed. Why did so many judges convict them?
More than that.. they actively refused the defendants the right to present a.n effective defense
Come on Government so much wasted during Co-vid, ensure that these people get the Compensation they right deserve. I wonder how much the Lawyers are getting paid???? Make that known.
hundreds an hour you bet, they are having a field day at our expense. The po and fujitsu should be given the tab!!
Let's be clear... this is a product of the arrogant, sales-driven, bonus-minded ICL mindset that Fujitsu started to buy into in the 1980s, finally taking an 80 per cent stake in ICL in 1990. By the 1980s ICL wasn't really much good at hardware or software; it needed Fujitsu for the Japanese company's technology for lower-end products. But the same ICL people continued to rule the roost, even as the British firm's credentials were being burnished by its association with and, finally, takeover by Fujitsu. That's not to absolve the Japanese owner of responsibility for this shitshow. No more 'trebles all round'... just long jail sentences, I hope.
Why is Vennells still walking free? The woman is a deceitful individual who threw the postmasters under the bus in pursuit of her bonus. And yes, she was an Anglican priest.
Fujitsu is a partner of Infosys. Infosys is owned Sunak’s father in law. Gillian Keegan’s husband was the CEO of Fujitsu Tory gov gave £4.9B contracts to Fujitsu post-Horizon scandal, of which Sunak approved £3.6B
So sad for these people
Proper heroes , how did they cope , no amount of money will compensate what they have gone through please get them everything they deserve , it’s gone on long enough
I am so upset by this on top of everything else going on in the world. Its just so pointlessly cruel.
What upper management knew or didn't know is irrelevant, they were responsible TO KNOW. No sympathy with that weak defence
Just remember, if it wasn’t for that tv program this would have been swept under the carpet years. ago and those PO executive’s enjoying their entitlements…
Where is the money???? Who has got the stolen money??
These two honest men deserve knighthoods more than Ed Davey and that Vennells woman.
I am also a past Fujitsu employee. I am happy to answer any questions you may have
all lawyers should be ashamed- they have watched their industry for nearly 20 years NOT disclosing information and did NOTHING. How could a Judge convict with NO evidence? SHAME. Lawyers including defence witnessed money being taken from the post masters. A normal person would call this theft. Why hasnt this been followed up. Mis-carriage of justice is the fault of our legal system - they should be paying back with interest all their fees.
GMTV, you've misspelt 'sub-postmasters' incorrectly in the video description.
I feel so sorry for the sub post office people who were treated so unfairly and falsely of fraud and convicted and are still suffering such injustice pay them compensation and squash all convictions immediately and charge all the CEOs of the Post Office and Fujitsu from all the time that horizon was started all on remand no bail allowed see how they like being locked up but this want happen because they got money 💰
Well done for not promoting impartiality here. As someone who was not personally affected but has listened to vast amounts of testimony in this enquiry I share the anger too. However listening to the testimony of senior people effectively closing ranks, blaming others that they can’t even name because they have lost their memory. I honestly think all those who took part in this conspiracy are concocting a new conspiracy of silence and collective amnesia in order to wriggle out of accountability. Those in positions of power always find a way of dodging justice and a way to ensure justice is denied to the rest of us.
"Collective amnesia". So true. I really hope that damning evidence exists in some form that they can't escape from.
Horizon was clearly used by Crown Post Office Staff, that are Principal PO’s run and managed by Post Office Plc itself and there is no doubt that these bugs, errors and discrepancies also arose when they balanced their accounting systems, so how did the Post Office deal with them….? Accuse and Charge their own staff of Theft and False Accounting in the same way as non Crown PO’s SubPost Masters out in the Provinces? No, we don’t hear anything mentioned about them. Neither do we hear what role Adam Crosier played in this Scandal, he’s now CEO of ITV plc, but was previously CEO of the Post Office between 2003 and 2010 and crucially would have known and been responsible for PO falsely accusing innocent SPM’s. Strange how, is it not , that there’s no been mentioned in ITV drama….?
Why oh why is it taking so long to compensate these poor people ?
They must go to prison
These Fujitsu workers who failed to stand up to what they KNEW was illegal and wrong are just as much to blame as the Postal bosses…shame on them.
i personal knew a postmaster this gentlman was a fully charterd accountant . he closed his post office about twelve months after horizon system came online . between me you and the rest of the freaking world . knows thease people had their lives freaking wrecked . no chance of moving on .a zero credit rating , no way of rebuilding thiere lives . if you can't understand the post office knew that they were destroying honest hard working devoted postmasters who belived this service they provided . was a respected and honarable service to the comunity they served only to be labled by a digital system as freaking thieths . IF THERE WERE ANY HONOUR AND REMORSE BY THE POST OFFICE THEY WOULD PAY OUT DOUBLE THE POSTMASTERS CLAIMS AND PAY BACK ANY BONUSES ISSUED TO THOUSE THAT WERE IN CHARGE AT THE TIME .
Basically the deceit, obfuscation and conspiracy is continuing. The sooner legal proceedings are made against the bosses of Fujitsu and the post office the better, if any of them are they still in position, I’d expect additional evidence is being destroyed.
He should have gone to the police.
And still the powers that be are doing their upmost to allow the law and process to drag out the pain and not admit their disgusting actions
Rob Rinder knowing the legal system, was a good interviewer here - knowing what should have happened and the imbalance in court.
Where were the Auditors in all this?
I remember investigative journalists, Paul Foot, that would have been reporting this in real time. There was hundreds of victims UK wide, and no one was investigating for them.
the great unanswered questions - where are the people who programmed the system to have remote access and what happened to the money that went "missing"
The postmasters should get a minimum of twice what was stolen from the post masters: restoration and more for damaged reputation at least.
Why didn't all these helpline and Fujitsu employers come forward at the time?? They're queuing up now???
Some of them were leaking their concerns to Computer Weekly and that was the first news outlet to take up and expose the story, followed by Private Eye.
The sad reality of the British Justice System in all sorts of different types of cases is that it only counts, in large financial terms, if your reputation is damaged, if you’re famous or are a big business. Even people with life changing injuries get insultingly small amounts for the most unimaginable “pain, suffering and loss of amenity” when compared to the many £100,000’s or even £Millions awarded to big names who’ve been wronged by newspapers or TV media. These ordinary people’s reputations are NO LESS VALUABLE than any MP or movie ‘star’, but it will never be compensated in remotely the same way sadly. It’s totally wrong, but that’s British Justice for you …
First every single penny that was stolen from the postmasters must be paid back plus interest. Then they must be compensated properly and fully, they have all experienced loss of earnings and reputation, the stress must have been enormous. All legal fees must be paid, this has to stop.
Since when did the judge get demoted to be a news anchor ?
I get the feeling that these two victims would have found it extremely difficult to get normal everyday financial avenues open to them with this sword of Damocles hanging over them! This should be a major part of their claim. Paula Vennels and several others to be prosecuted please asap.
It stinks.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I do not have a TV but I heard about this scandal via a long Radio 4 documentary. It must have been six or seven years ago.
The corporate world survives on the individual self interest of survival, followed by greed, with money being the food.
The po is anEVIL organisation as are fujitsu. Many of these people need to go to jail SOON!!
Really well presented and a great candid approach, more truth to emerge. Sad circumstances and everything could have been avoided 20 years ago, awful UK System.