From Aircraft to Improvised Infantry: the Vickers MkI No2
utreon.com/c/forgottenweapons/
/ forgottenweapons
www.floatplane.com/channel/For...
Cool Forgotten Weapons merch! shop.forgottenweapons.com
The Vickers MkI No2 was an improvisation of the British Royal Air Force. They needed arms for airbase defense, without unduly impacting the production of weapons for the infantry. Wheat they had a good supply of were Vickers Gas-Operated (aka Vickers K-class) guns that had been used in now-obsolete aircraft with flexible observers' guns. And so, the MkI No2 was a Vickers Gas-Operated outfitted with a buttstock, pistol grip, and bipod. Voila! An infantry MG!
I have found no accounts of how they handled in use, but one must assume they were not great. Despite looking really cool, they have basically no functional cheek rest and a rather high rate of fire (thanks to their aircraft gun lineage). Still, in addition to airbase use these guns found their way into service in Normandy (with No4 Commando), Norway, and the invasion of the Walcheren Islands. When the war ended, they were not kept in service, as they were a small number of non-standard weapons.
Many thanks to the Royal Museum of the Armed Forces and Military History in Brussels for access to this very rare piece! Check them out here:
www.klm-mra.be/D7t/
A couple photos of the guns in action and the mag-carrying gear can be seen at the Vickers MG Blog:
vickersmg.blog/the-guns/vicke...
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
6281 N. Oracle 36270
Tucson, AZ 85740
What differences are there (if any) between this gun and the Vickers K guns used by the SAS and LRDG in North Africa?
The base gun in the same. The SAS and LRDG used No 1 Mark I guns straight out of the aircraft with little adaptation.
@Vickers MG Collection & Research Association Exactly, one has essentially been ripped out of the wing of a plane and strapped to a jeep. The other was modified by Vickers for infantry use.
@@spaman7716 not exactly 'out of the wiing of a plane', they were manned guns on aircraft as they're magazine fed so not much use mounted in a wing.
Pistol grip and stock on this one for using like a bren as an example, Vickers K used on the SAS jeeps has a thumb trigger and no stock
..'cause only flying personel can change a drum when OUT? As we ALL know: Plane/car mount = BIG difference!
Looks like its got an air filter
I was thinking the same thing
They should have gone with a cold air intake, everybody knows that's how you get extra horsepower... And possibly flame decalls
I've been binging Marty T videos lately, so that was my first impression as well.
@@kowell xD, oh i forgot about that, also it can look really nice if well done
machine guns looked great before they all got fuel injection... can't beat that carburated machine gun look.
For the guns used in commando operations, you can easily see how an LMG with no noisy, snaggable belts, big drum mags and a silly high RoF would be desirable. Not to mention that it look a good bit shorter than a bren.
Yeah, it's pretty close to ideal for that purpose. Surprisingly compact and sturdily made, and the handling challenges aren't going to phase an SOS type for a second.
Is that not a drum mag?
@@beargillium2369I read it that round for a second too. Might be clearer as "...an LMG with big drum mags, a sill RoF and no noisy snaggable belts would be desirable"
Yeah it was the silly rate of fire that I first thought of. As much as I love the Bren I can see how it might be limited for cammando raids, can picture them standing around frustratedly waiting for the next round to fire haha
That gun just oozes cool factor.
It really does! Lewis and a Bren had a baby and named it Vickers. I would love to have this in another Call of Duty or Battlefield or similar title, but less of a big name so these designs shine out more. Preferably something from an indy studio.
Unless you were the one firing it. The pistol grip and the 'no' cheek piece ooze user regret.
This is a Star Wars gun if I've ever seen one
@@KOTYAR1 Even better than a Mauser C96! 😃
And Steam Punkiness!
A few months before the start of WW2, an article appeared in the supplement of the British magazine "Flight" (the edition of July 27th, 1939), about the Vickers K gun. In the article, it said the weapon had been designed so that it could be fitted with an alternative stock and pistol grip so that it could be fired from the shoulder. This was illustrated by a photo of the gun being used in just such a configuration. So it was not just an ad-hoc modification carried out when the guns were surplus to use from aircraft.
This, the Italian Villar Perosa, and the American Stinger. Aircraft guns as ground guns. Keep 'em coming, Ian!
Before mockup with Degrantev DP 27
Your not wrong
The germans did this a lot. MG15, MG81, and MG151. There is also a picture of an MG131 in a ground mount floating around but idk if that was widely used or what
@@smoraptor Germans did it in WWI with both the Bergmann MG-15aA/nA and the Becker 20mm cannon, as well.
These were actually used by Royal Marine units on D-Day as well. Used in the Normandy campaign. They were dopted to give additional firepower and to help counter German MG-34/42.
Per Mare Per Terram ♠️
I think Polish paratroopers had some of these at Arnhem.
@@Possumbaby1413 I think it was the recon company. Seen here at 18.40 kzhead.info/sun/mc1_lb2wo4KPrGw/bejne.html
Rich (Vickers vicar) informed me that the jeeps and guns in the movie had been issued to 1AB (recce squadron) just prior to their excursion to Norway in 1945. At Arnhem in 1944, they used the No1.
Cool as! Somewhere, I have a photo of myself holding the aircraft type (with the D-handle instead of butt stock) taken about 10 years ago in Papua New Guinea. The sugar mill I was visiting for work had only recently dig it out of the ground, after about 70 years in the earth. It was in remarkably good condition and having never held any MG before, I was blown away by how light it was... Didn't realise at the time that it was an aircraft gun, but it makes a lot of sense as that sugar mill is located on what was once Gusap Field F.O.B in the Ramu-Markham Valley, between Lae and Madang. All the fence posts for many miles around are strips of Marston matting
Been waiting for this gun to be featured for ages.
Me too
I find it fascinating that there are people who can design these modifications so quickly. It doesn't look like it would be fun to lug around and shoot but I imagine it did the job.
I made a 3D model of this gun for a videogame. Now I see like... 3 mistakes I need to go and fix :P Wonderful video as always!
What game? I’d love to check it out!
I'd love to know what game you are working on :)
warded
You might use the other carry handle from the image in the video, seems much better.
Bro,can make this for cod2 mod?🤣
The first time I encountered this weird looking weapon was when I was building a Matchbox plastic 1/76 scale model kit of the ''Longe Range Desert Group'', a 30cwt Chevrolet and a Willy's Jeep (Matchbox no. PK-173), several decades ago. Both model vehicles are gone but I remember the Vickers K machine gun. Nice to see a real one!
I'd like to see a Larry Vickers book about Vickers MGs....A Vickers on Vickers.
Fall out: London Devs - We finally have enough weapons in game. *Gun Jesus releases new video Fall Out: London Devs - We almost, have enough weapons in game.
Looking at these old firearms and how they were made and adapted when needed, shows craftsmanship and creativity.
The U.S. Army Rangers used these guns mounted on London Fire Brigade ladders(!) erected on RN LCAs as fire support for the assault at Point-du-Hoc on D-Day. One can be seen muzzle down on the objective after the fighting, possibly marking a casualty. One description refers to the gunners firing at their apogee "as they swung back and forth like a metronome."
Sounds pretty crazy
The very famous photo of a helmet on a ‘rifle’ at PdH is actually a K gun.
Reminds me of fury road.
Great example of using what you have on hand to make what you need
Alternative theory on the carry handle: they wanted to make a terrible optional tripod mount
I remember wandering around this museum as a boy in the '70s. a collection well worth a few visits!
Like a deep dish DP27 designed to be carried upside down by the biggest guy in the squad.
The Vickers were very popular with the LRDG and 22 in the desert and in Normandy. The high rate of fire was perfect for their use in hosing down airfields. I’m not sure if they used them on bipods as the images mostly show them on vehicles. I’ll look through the archive to see what I can find
I'm pretty sure Ben Macintyre's Rogue Heros says that they mainly used mounted versions.
@@denisonsmock5456 thank you! That saves me trawling for info
All the photos ive seen are the original pattern without the butt and with the original aircraft pattern D grip. Essentially they were either pinching RAF stores or using up weapons left over from crashed and obsolete planes
As Ian mentioned the development of the land service no2 version with the buttstock and bipod started in 1943. The classic images of SAS, PPA and LRDG desert raiders really predate that, starting in 1942 up to the fall of Tunisia in May ‘43. Having said that they still seemed to keep them in Italy and Western Europe so they might have got no2’s later
My favorite bit is the spring for the front sight. Simple and effective.
oh WOW!! you actually just answered a long standing question I've had regarding some funky militaria. the slung over ammo carrying bags. there were a number of these in circulation at the local army surplus store down here in new westminster canada. this was at the old "army navy" at the waterfront, which recently closed down after 70 years. i had inquired about them before, and all the fella at the store said was that they were canadian army surplus. they even had very similar grease stains to the ones in the pictures on the link you posted in the show notes. they were very expensive, and lord knows what happened to them. i guess these made their way over here from the UK post war
These ones? Commando K Gunner - Normandy 1944 (Machine Gunner Mannequin) kzhead.info/sun/rMmonqyNa2mtink/bejne.html
@@vickersmg thats them!! near identical !!
@@wikikomoto they could have been Lewis gun pouches otherwise. Slightly different looking but in no way compatible.
@@vickersmg all the images i can find of the lewis gun pouches have 4 carriers, one distinctive thing i remember about the ones they had here, were that they only had 2 pouches. like the ones in the video you linked, and reference images. (my friend was joking about them being a bra)
A lot of people forget the real meaning behind Christmas. Happy Birthday Gun Jesus, may your magazines always be full and your aim be true.
The RAF used quite a few Hotchkiss portative mgs for airfield defence early on alongside a lot of Lewis guns. There was even a few .45 Maxim guns used from the 1890s. In wartime you use what you have on hand.
I have seen photos of Maxim guns in the Ukraine war. It is old but it will kill you.
Bro this man has made every video for every gun.❤
This gun looks very heavy but packing a lot of punch with those 60 round magazines and sturdy.
The 100-round drum would be even more reasonable.
@@tt-ew7rx Yes, the operator could hide under it when it was raining!
@@mikehipperson Well for that the British already had their washbasin type helmets ...
The m60 before the m60 was an m60.
Yup, I was thinking it looked an awful lot like an M60E4 with a top mounted drum magazine instead of belt feed.
cosmetically it does look like an early M60 🙂
Such amazing machining on the insides. Damn.
It's crazy that it could cycle so quickly with such heavy internals
I watched the video for the air mount version of this the other day and was really interested about this configuration!
Neat adaption. If they didn't handle/shoot well they wouldn't have made it off air force bases late in the war. Their were plenty of options out there by then.
The adapted bren gun handle looks like it was intended to mount on some sort of pivot. Possibly field improvised, which would explain its placement.
Another great vid. They were famously used in twin mounts by the embryonic SAS on their Willys Jeeps in North Africa. Due to the lightning surprise attack nature of their operations against emeny airfields these would have been ideal with their high rate of fire. Apprently they destroyed more German aircraft on the ground than the RAF ever did in the air...
Even in obsolescence they destroyed aircraft
9:10 That trunnion pin looks to be modified perfectly in accordance with drawing DDE 3623/24 where it is indicated that it should be "securely brazed".
Holy molly i just finished watching the SAS Rogue Heroes and yeah i was interested of Vickers K GO due to the fact i even saw it in call of duty 3 for the SAS jeeps, and somehow played Men of War and the SAS got the No.2 Mk1, i was waiting for you to upload this specific after you say that on the early vickers k videos, and somehow you uploaded it 2 days ago, so yeah what a coincidence of the moments
If you think about it, they did end up being used for anti aircraft
Wonder what works better, this or the the American 'Stinger'. This is oblivious made more professional but also looks very heavy
This looks easier to maneuver and fire from the shoulder with due to the pistol grip and front vertical grip. The weight is also centered because the drum magazine goes directly ontop of the reciever. The stinger looks better for bipod firing because you actually have a good cheek weld and the gun is lower profile in general. But the traditional style rifle stock and side mounted belt box (throws the weight off center) would make it very impractical to shoulder fire, basically you're stuck hipfiring it if you aren't on the ground with the bipod
Quite a few of these used in the ground role in Rhodesia.
And it still manages to look more reasonable then the so-called "Assault Rifle" in Fallout 4... Heck this could fit right in in a Steampunk setting and I kind of like it :-)
Videogames.
Always enjoy the “Never knew it existed’vids. Thanks again!
I know that the percussurer of the SAS. In desert campaign used these to arm their vehicles. I believe that they also used the modified Lewis guns with aircraft magazines, is that true. When I younger, I loved to look through a pictorial series of World War 2, that my Great Grandmother bought during, or just after the war. It was a 20 volume set. It went throughout the war, from the mid 1930's to 1946/7. It was very informative and interesting to read about the war.
It would seem with the carry handle extended, you could rest the bipod on an elevated surface like a wall or sandbags and use it as a vertical foregrip, which mightve been helpful with no cheek weld for better control.
Could it be, that the carry handle was at some point removed and put back on the wrong way? Because it looks like it should be reversible and then it would not be as akward.
So wait, was this thing essentially one of the first implementations of a bullpup layout? (the trigger being a mechanical link to the actual fire control group, the bolt traveling all the way to the shoulder rest, etc)
I've been a history buff for a long time but I had never heard of this gun until I picked up some models for Bolt Action wargaming. It blew my mind that I'd never heard of it before. Its very cool.
I read the scoop muzzle attachment was to direct the flash away from the early aircraft fabric covered skin so as not to set it on fire if it got too close.
Love to see it on the range, what an interesting conversation.
This would be worthy to be in the galactic empire's arsenal in the fight against the rebel alliance.
I was wondering when you'd get one of these on your channel, they had them in Battlefield V and I had a lot of fun using them on that.
Interestingly it seems they kept the mentioned aircraft-intended firing grip in BFV despite the rest of the gun being like the one shown.
@@VertietRyper those alternative attachments from BFV are under appreciated and it would be great if they were in 2042.
"Looking forward to joining Dads Army getting issued a Bren Gun" Later: "WTF???"
Close to 1000 rpm - that is always badass
Most famously they were used by the SAS mounted on Jeeps used to attack Axis ground forces in North Africa. There's a really cool picture of Paddy Mayne in his Jeep with a few others looking just like the movie version with these guns evident.
Thank you , Ian . 🐺
One of the coolest machine guns we've seen on this channel!
I would speculate the bren carrying handle were used by soldiers on the ground whereas the one your showing off they were thinking about firing down from rooftops or from buildings rather than lying on the ground. The carrying handle deployed down would have given you a perfect downwards angle firing control.
I'm curious about how that magazine works and what the internal parts look like. Would like to see you disassemble the magazine.
I think he does that with the aircraft version.
Merry Christmas, Ian.
This IS an ancestral modular weapon system unintentionally made!
Fantastic video, many thanks.
This is the ideal infantry weapon. You may not like it, but this is what peak performance looks like.
M60 E6 = BEST OF THE BEST! ...in DK
Fascinating stuff, thanks!
They put this thing in Battlefield V, pretty fun and effective in the game for a mmg.
Its basically the British equivalent of the MG34 or 42 based off on its fire rate in game, really cool weapon
Reloads faster than an MG42 or an MG34 without the double snail mag too, people that think they're being smart by rushing you after a drum get to enjoy a second follow-up drum.
Imagine a British Rambo dual-wielding these before having a spot of tea.
A Gurkha would probably do it.
Paddy Mayne, only it wouldn't have been tea 😉
AKA the sas
That rear sight blocks your view like nothing else. I wouldn't want to be using that if i was trying to acquire a target under stress.
Loved The vídeo. Years ago I used to confuse it with The Lewis gun without that heavy and awkward Air filter. Because both weapons were used by The LRDG and SAS.
Heya ian, isnt the carry handle actually a steadying handle for more accurate sustained fire? we used to use similar ones on our bren guns in the australian army in the 1990s.
Our view is that it is to be used for the left hand to pull downwards when firing for extra stability.
As good as a semi-auto rifle would have been, I still think that an air cooled LMG (With a significantly larger capacity than the Bren) was the main thing our infantry were missing in WW2. A belt fed would have been better, but something like this would have served too. Don't get me wrong, the Bren was great at what it did, but there was basically nothing in widespread issue between a Bren and a water-cooled Vickers, which was just outdated.
a bren with more of those drums that they prototyped for AA-use; that or simply adopting the Darne machinegun; Frankly the Soviets and the US had similar problems; the M1919 was ill suited and only partially rectified; the stinger An/M2 was a slightly better solution but not perfect either; disintigrating belts were just something that leaders didn't want to deal with (on a platoon or squad level) in the interwar period I guess.
With that sighting arrangement, something tells me most of the guys who actually shot this during the war aimed by following the bullet impacts.
Allegedly, some folk upped the tracer ratio in their pans. They liked the light show and thought it intimidating. I suspect you are correct regarding aiming. One of my favourite anecdotes about this gun concerns its use in the front turret of a Sunderland of the ASW variety, operating out of Pembroke dock. An Australian gentleman was peeved the U-boats shot back at him with a miscellany of light cannon and other artillery, whilst he had just a single Vickers K/GO to keep their heads down during an attacking pass. So....he gaffer taped in two more and upped the tracer round count. How he subsequently got into the turret himself and served the guns is not explained, but the result was reported as satisfactory and indeed kept enemy heads down. It is in a book called "Waves beneath my wingtips", and covers Sunderland ASW operations.
Great timing, SAS Rogue Heroes shows them using the dual mount.
Ingenious reconfiguration
I'm wondering if the bipod was rested on an emplacement where the carry handle wouldn't get in the way. It could explain why some have different handles that are more suited to prone firing positions.
I was thinking the same thing. If you're trying to shoot aircraft/paratroopers in the air then you need more elevation than that bipod allows. It would have needed to be up on some kind of base or stand. In that case, the extended carry handle wouldn't be a problem.
Vickers K were still in use into the 1950s 1960s with SAS on land rover swb short wheelbase patrol vehicles, i also think the Belgian sas also had them on Minerva land rovers for a short time. I have also see pics of the ground use ones post war
My uncle was an instructor in the RAF Regiment in WW2, teaching airfield defence.
Of course the Vickers K-gun had a much more famous ground use in WW2, being strapped to the front of the Long Range Desert Group jeeps for their behind lines incursions were the large mags and rapid rate of fire were ideal.
My second favorite gun from The Mummy after the Chamelot-Delvigne Model 1873
Cool. Vickers. Ian thank you.
Willing to wager the firer's off-hand grasped the top of the buttstock to keep it in the shoulder pocket and their chin/cheek rested on top of the back of their hand for the 3rd point of contact needed to use the sights effectively.
The carry handle/vertical foregrip might work when firing from a trench or a high wall, other than that.. eh..
Hi Ian interesting video just an observation I think the vickers k was used by the lrdg on some of their vehicles
For airfield defence the bipod feet would be outside the cast turret or bunker lip and the handle would be inside allowing easy grip and control..
"Vickers GO mk1" is a decent name for a giant robot.
I'm a simple man. I see Forgotten Weapons posted a video, I watch said video.
Are you positive that the handle wasn’t just taken off and installed backwards for storage or by someone who didn’t know any better when they received a box of parts?
Looks like it would be alright . As long as you don't have to carry it very far. Bet its heavy. Thanks Ian
Very great content of this video GJ. Do you have access to the post WW2 pre Vulcan .50cal rotary machine gun?
Love the chunky look of this gun. It would fit in so well for an Imperial Guard regiment or something.
My favourite infantry gun in CoH2.
Thank you!
The shape of the back end of the gun really reminds me of the SA80
Amazing engineering, looks very robust.
About time for this gun
1:00 Anyone else hear the Samsung notification? Whoops! Still a really cool video on a very unique and unusual weapon!
I know that Japan with their version of the Vickers that they used in aircraft were intended from the onset to be used as grown weapons in the event of a crash landing in enemy territory.
... The SAS, also acquired them, I believe in there stock aircraft spec, mounted on Willy's Jeeps,for long range, scoot and shoot German airfield/ fuel dump attacks!. long-range reconnaissance petrols etc !.
Now I gotta play bf 1 for another week straight , thanks Ian
Merry Christmas everybody, and remember : you can not make bad guys harmless by making good guys helpless.
The SAS used variations of the adapted Vickers along with the LRDG in North Africa on behind the lines raids.
Exceptionally cool gun.
Until you've fired a whole drum, that is, when I think it would be smoking hot.
Belgian SAS Hero Bob Melot was from Brussels and sadly died their in a car accident after the liberation. He would have been using these Vickers K’s in his SAS jeeps in France and beyond.