How the Collapse of CD Sales Crashed the Music Industry (w/ Jim Barber)
In this episode, music industry veteran Jim Barber and I discuss how the collapse of physical CD sales in the absence of social media created "The Era of Faceless Bands".
Check Out Jim's Substack: starsafterstarsafterstars.sub...
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Still buying CDs. Couldn't give a flying fck what people are doing. Love CDs, the sound quality, the liner notes, the physical feel, the price, collecting them. The list goes on. Long live CDs...
Price … at one time they were way overpriced.
Cds are far cheaper than vinyl, sound better than streaming, and you get art and liner notes. Cds don't get enough love.
@@beanbunn4029 exactly!
Don't forget the smell of a freshly opened jewel case
I'm with you 💯! I've been collecting CD's for 30 years. I don't think I've gone a week since 1995 without buying at least one CD! Fuck all this streaming invisible bullcrap.
No cd players in cars anymore sure hurts.
Buy better cars. Mine have always had 8 tracks, cassette tapes, or CD play capabilities, physical media of various types.
@@davidweihe6052 loved my cassettes! They nevet skippped!
My 2016 and 2017 BMWs have them - and I'm VERY glad for it.
@@davidweihe6052 I'm told that in many new models, not only are there no factory options for physical media, it's difficult to even find an after-market unit that can fit in the dash.
I owned a music store from 1993-97. You wouldn’t believe the obstacles I ran into in those 4 years. You needed Billboard magazine to know what to buy. A year subscription was hundreds of dollars. Cassette tapes became phased out, leaving tons of dead inventory. CD’s still growing, so having to buy artists on both cd and tape, was expensive. Walmart selling cheaper than I could buy from wholesale. Then Circuit City, Best Buy came to town. I got out before Napster, which gave it all free. That was the death of the music store
I think it was fans vs. industry greed is what ended the independent stores. The industry's biggest stake in the heart of the stores was what you said, wholesaling to Wal-Mart for pennies. The customers always take the path of least resistance, so Napster/torrents were inevitable. The real moment the industry showed its willingness to degrade itself was the fake anti-longbox campaign. I think they had Don Henley and a few others promoting it "for the environment". In truth, 75% of the manufacturing cost of cd's was the cardboard longbox. I think it was something like $1.50 for the longbox and $0.50 for the disc and jewel case. This is 35 year old remembering, so please understand.
I bought the majority of my CD collection in the 92-98 timeframe
The 1990's were definitely a bad time to run a record store, a transition period.
The whole napster things started wit 2 college kids who couldn't afford the cd, one had it and the other one did....so they shared.....and it's all history from there.......and then there's Bit Torrent's...but that's another story
Most of the cds I bought were from 1989 to 2000. Somewhere around 1997 I started to buy LPs because Cds sounded so bad (loud). Then rock died.
I still buy CDs. My teen daughter used to make light fun of me until she started to collect LPs. She noticed that she would pay anywhere from $20-35 dollars per LP and the CD editions only cost $5-$12 (and often had extra tracks not on the LPs), so now she collects CDs. CDs are just so much more practical than LPs - you can listen to them anywhere. The only thing I miss about LPs is the large artwork.
Yeah, me too. Cd's, in general, sound better than lp's, unless they are mastered using loudness. Plus, they are not so large and fragile.
Shes Gotta a great DAD !!
When you bought an LP you felt like you bought something and played it, seat down in a couch and listened and read the lyrics, the composer's biography, etc. When you buy a cd now you rip it to a file and place the cd in a drawer.
@@user-oh6ev7mj5qplaying an LP is more intentional. More tactile and interactive. It requires more effort and therefore I think it’s more enjoyable because you are engaged in the process of playing the music.
@@batman48195 exactly
Video killed the radio star Video killed the radio star In my mind and in my car We can't rewind, we've gone too far.
🎶 _Oh, uh-oh oh oh…_ 🎹👏👏
there's a ton of great music in the 60/70s on KZhead that is waiting for you to discover it.
found some killer Japanese smooth grooves the other day from Masaki Ueda 1978 @@LoyalOpposition
@@JasonBrockThank you. I'll check him out.
It only that were true now. Mtv was sold, and ifartradio took over.
One of the reasons is because back then there was nothing else to do. I’d read every word on the album cover. I knew who some of the producers and engineers were! 😂 Pre internet, 3 TV channels and my parents weren’t big on magazine subscriptions. Remember those?
And think of how few widely distributed rock acts there were in the 60s and 70s (and 80s) compared to the 90s and 2000s. Sure it has something to do with the lack of physical media - but also the difference in the amount of content is insane.
So true! My sister and I have joked that half the stuff we used to do as kids was just born out of boredom because we didn't have all this on demand entertainment 24/7.
I do. As a bagpipe player, I used to get a half-sized magazine once a month directly from Glasgow, Scotland. Before you could tune in to BBC Radio Scotland on the net, that was the only connection to the bagpipe community you had. And yes, if mankind really seems to loose its creative drive sometimes it might well be because nowadays there is no more need to be bored.
@@joyb.5090 And to be fair some fans not only know names but also the favorite color, food, number, animal and much more of the artist.
This. The sheer amount of stuff coming at you nowadays precludes you from really doing any deep dive into the musicians. That and the loss of physical media.
It's pretty telling that social media sites refer to music and visuals (video and photos) as "content" rather than calling them art. That tells you everything you need to know about how modern audiences are being conditioned to appreciate art.
I am a "writer" not a 'content' creator!
Yep, everything is just 'content' to put ads on! Very sad state of affairs.
Content is the other c-word.
This exact point was pointed out by the head of Universal in a speech at Midem 2008
@jemimallah Interesting you think this is a boomer comment. Try this on for size: imagine you get the chance to meet your favorite musician face-to-face. Would you say to them “I love your content”. I think you’d say “I love your music / your work / your art.” Id seriously doubt you’d call their work “content” to their face.
It also correlates with the shift from "ownership" to "subscription/rental" based economics. When people OWN something, they make a commitment to it. When we stop owning "physical" things (like CD's) and shift to subscribing, downloading, or (free) streaming... there is no commitment to music. In our faster paced days, this paradigm holds true for life and our trend towards "experiential" spending... this money goes to massive corporations that have leveraged "fee for service", instead of allowing you to possess your own capital.
Well said.Same thing with cars
@@whoami-eb7cq Exactly... I "care" about maintaining and driving a car that I own... Someone who rents or borrows a car, doesn't really "care" about the state of the car.
@@cdncitizen4700 Photos too, isn't it great finding an old shoe box full of photos from way back in the past, reading whatever had been written on the back at the time. Not sure we will find the digital photos on somebody's discarded phone 50 or 100 years from now...If we can still even decode them by then, and if it will be as interesting as those old developed prints.
The problem with this little rant, is that you are allowed to earn your own music. It's just that there's no advantage to owning the music. That's just an emotional spillover from a time when there was no alternative to owning the music. Due to my demographic I feel a strong compulsion to own the music but really why? For a KZhead premium subscription I can listen to virtually everything ever recorded for $15 per month... Far less than it costs to have even a modest record collection or CD collection. I know that these structural changes don't seem to stop artists becoming rich. Such as Taylor Swift. Unfortunately. The RPS comment is all the more ridiculous given that it is posted on KZhead which is a streaming service where music is concerned
@@cdncitizen4700your comparison is specious. Renting music for a movie is obviously not like renting a car which is a physical object which could only be possessed by one person at a time. And which is also susceptible to physical degradation and mistreatment. None of that applies to audio visual artworks. The main practical difference with streaming vs CD sales is that one can afford to consume vastly more music for less money
My father and I would rarely admit to enjoying each others' music, so when he finally broke that silence by telling me certain songs I was playing that he enjoyed, I didn't try to further piss him off. That was never the goal. Instead, I would try to find even more common ground. It became a great challenge, trying to figure him out, and what I loved that he also enjoyed. I thought it was a great honor to have his approval. He once came home and 'caught' me listening to one of his old albums, and he never said a word, but I could tell he was pleased. I'm 63 now, and I really miss him.
I loved listening to Zep, Pink Floyd, The Stones, AC/DC with my father and he also introduced me to some country, which I mostly rejected at the time (sadly) but enjoy now. I also miss my father.
Your comment was wholly personal. Nice to know you loved and wanted your dad's approval. It's also worth letting you know that it's really not our business to know (unless you just like disclosing your emotions). Stay well
If you apply that to an audience you can incredibly increase “gratuities”. Something I learned years ago. Who am I playing for, myself? If that’s the case, why would I expect people to throw money at me for basically doing the same thing as I would at home?
My dad liked my Night Ranger tapes!
I want to add that even bands like Foreigner, Boston, and Loverboy were largely faceless to all but the die hards. That's why Foreigner was able to tour with one or no original members for decades.
Very good point.
I don't know enough about Boston (outside the name of the band) and Loveboy (never heard about them honestly but it's just my lack of knowledge). But Foreigner is more like 'one-face' band than 'faceless' one. It's 'the band of Mick Jones' and there are many similar bands like Whitesnake (aka 'the band of David Coverdale'), Rainbow (R. Blackmore), Megadeth (D. Mustaine) where you know who is the main songwriter - person that writes the big amount of songs and holds the rights of the band's name and so on. It's the same with the band I joined in 2009 ('Epizod' - relatively popular rock/metal band in my country Bulgaria) - our bass player is from the very begining (1988) and during the years there were many different members. You are the author these are your songs and you are free to choose with whom to perform them on stage.
On the other hand there are 'many-faces' band like Deep Purple - probably my biggest influence as a child in early 90s. There are like 15+ different members during the years and I can name each one of them including which year someone joined or left the band. And of course each one of them is/was great musician on their own.
@@MrHayes-cb7hpthat's why we called it Arena Rock, generic, yet solid.
@@VasilBelezhkovAll that stuff was called Arena Rock.
I think the best liner note gag in history was Twisted Sister. The guitarist thanked the maker and the strings, the drummer his sticks, etc. And Dee Snider thanked Vidal Sassoon hair care products! lol And always with the line "are you listening, Vidal?" And then, after 3-4 albums (2-3 of which were big/massive mainstream hits), the liner note now said: "Dee Snider no longer uses Vidal Sassoon products. You blew it, Vidal!" Lol omg... I laughed for a week when I read that. And no one in the last 25+ years will ever have an experience like that.
My only TS story when I got stationed in So. Cal late 80's met my friend that said he was in one of their videos. I called BS, so he said when it came on Mtv to look for him sitting in a school desk - there he was! 🤘
Dee Snider is a bright guy.
"In order to obtain maximum sensory enjoyment from the auditory representations contained herein, it is necessary to minimize load resistance through the potentiometer in one's preamplification section. In other words... PLAY IT LOUD, MUTHA!"
"There was so little information about bands that you studied liner notes." That one line took me back in time.
More information doesn't mean, I suppose, we're better informed. Just that we probably should be...if we could only focus on one thing at a time.
I remember reading the Appitite for destruction liner notes over and over. I had it on cassette and the liner notes smelled so good.
There is a direct correlation between the death of the CD / physical media sales and the rise of concert ticket prices. Would love to hear the inside of that.
Live shows were used as promotions in the 70s and 80s. At a time when albums were around £2 , concert tickets were around £1 - and I mean for headline acts - Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Genesis, Rory Gallagher, Neil Young etc - there was usually at least one support act. There were sometimes 'Label' tours with 3 or 4 acts. If you want a one word answer for the price increase - it's the Ticketmaster monopoly that owns the venues, the ticketing and a huge chunk of the money that bands try to make on their Merch. John Oliver covers this in one of his programs.
You are correct, and there is a direct corrolation. Record companies were making so much profit off album sales that the labels would subsidize the tours as a loss leader advertising for the band... So you would go buy that cd/cassette etc. And of course the bands were in the hook to pay that back. Even worse was paying all that back didn't come from the $19 of profit off the $20 CD. It came from the 25 to 50 cents the artist made per CD sold. And if you got 50 cents per sale you were a big dog... Like Metallica or Madonna. Aside from the ticketmaster gouging... Prices are still high because now we are paying the whole cost. That isn't just putting on the show, it's paying and feeding and hoteling the entire staff. Another interesting evolution of this is most bands are getting near 100% of the ticket money for a concert. The venue makes it's money selling beer and food. That is why you pay $10 for a beer that cost them about 50 cents. And most of that cost is just your cup. I'm fascinated by this stuff. And if you are too, there is a great wendover video called something like 'the insane logistics of a concert tour'. It's a must watch
@@TheClownfight I’ve been in the AV industry for 30 years, I saw it from the live concert/production side. I was wondering it what is looked like from the Record label/artist camp side and would love to see a discussion started on this especially on this channel. In the 80’s/90’s you had full crews with one position each and now 1 tech is handling multiple positions. Touring was way up but the wages where stagnant until the dread C19 times (thats a whole other discussion). But I agree with you completely!!!! They used to tour to promote and album, now they produce and album to for a reason to tour.
Something else they don't talk about... Books have a suggested retail price on them, limiting how much a mall realtor can ask for them. Cds never did, and prices could get jacked up so much, it killed a lot of impulse sales.
Easy....Legacy artists and bands with a big enough fanbase and a concert-friendly songs charge more....to make up for the relative pennies they get from Streaming
Discogs is even better than Wikipedia for getting to the details of a given record, and IMO a better place for it. Some folks have been transcribing the full notes for some albums, and it's an amazing resource, especially when the damn record companies don't put the proper information on the releases!
Yes! And it's much better to navigate through people's work
Remasters are sometimes released with ZERO information regarding the remaster (i.e., date). Hellooo!
45cat is another useful site. One thing it offers that discogs doesn't is the exact release date, either date or month, for many singles and LPs, and not just the year. It's helpful if you're compiling anything in chronological order.
Allmusic has some details also, but also gives you reviews by professional critics and fans. Gotta put up with a lot of pop up ads but it's very informative and comprehensive.
Discogs is fantastic!
Growing up in Boston, and going to university in the area, there was nothing like going to Harvard Square and Central Square , checking out records at the Coop; or Kenmore Square checking out the locally owned record stores. This hands on experience was half of the music experience. You talked to the record store guy about records, you fingered through the albums. You discovered new musicians by album covers and what was playing in the store... Miss all that.
Tower records in on the corner of Mass and Newberry.
@@razenhell6514 I'm commenting about the period before Tower Records was opened on Newbury & Mass Ave in 1986. In the 70s into early 80s there were a lot more smaller record stores in Boston and Cambridge.
all the music I like I found from local bands playing, bought their CDS or albums if they had them
agreed 100%
I used to love the little booklets that came with cds. It was so exciting to find lyrics, artwork and photos of my favorite artists.
Best quote of the week "make better records"....cheers
The Warning a rock power trio are making better records that's why the have a worldwide fan base. Their upcoming European tour is almost sold out.
Mo' Better Blues
Also the belief that there are greater hits out there than what has been shoved in our face. Lots of great music undiscovered out there.
Yes! Listening used to be a much more intentional activity. You paid attention. Hours spent on the bed, gatefold album open, liner notes and lyrics out. That was the visual stimulation that went along with the music of the day. Miss those days, but cherish the memories and routines of my youth that, if subjected to today's listeners, would never be fully appreciated (they'd get bored soooo quickly sans screen).
This. Now music is just background noise to be played during the recording of a tiktoks video or the like.
Most of my favorite albums are ones I was disappointed with on the first listen (Faith No More's Angel Dust comes to mind), but because I paid good money for them I forced myself to give them numerous listens and grew to appreciate the more challenging music. Now, with youtube and internet listening, if a song doesn't grab me within a minute, I'm on to the next one. And let's be honest: most songs that grab you immediately are pretty simplistic and shallow.
that is true! today, I buy music, if the song doesn't grab me almost immediately, I start to look at my phone, what else is going on, and at times, the song finishes and I really didn't hear a dang thing other than the first few seconds. in the old days pre-cellphone, I'd have to have the tv on or grab something to read (assuming I'm alone), in which case, why am I listening to this song if the tv is on... and tv wasn't like now, only 4 channels, during daytime, I just didn't give two craps about what was on, soaps, informercials, news/farm reports, and after school, after brady bunch/star trek/gilligans island, didn't care until 7pm when the primetime shows came on. I either read or listened to radio/records and later in my car, radio, cassette tapes and later, cd's. So yeah, read everything on the cover, learned the lyrics of the songs I liked, grew to appreciate the non-hit songs, or how far to fast-forward if the song sucked (in my opinion). Today, new music from new artists, I love Amyl & the sniffers, I think Amy is the lead singer (last name? uh, um, not lee...). anyone else in the band? uh, nope. Drain? uh, I know what the singer looks like. great songs but band names? I'm not including jinjer, I do know Tatiana's first name, but they are Ukrainian names, I am sure I'd butcher the the spellings let alone how to pronounce them. maybe I'm not a superfan...
Like bands like led zeppelin back in the day didn’t have air play on the radio,it was all hear say and buying their albums, and going to their shows and they were huge to say the least.
Owning vs Renting. Investment vs. Borrowing.... this applies to real world economics. Owning Capital vs. Experiential Subscription with nothing to show for it, other than the short term "social media" driven high of being able to brag ... "Look at me... I was there".
I always thought rap music is what killed the music industry
That's not how you spell, "crap". You left the, "c", off and or out.
It’s definitely what killed MTV 😂
Top of the Pops, Thursday night. Thursday was always a major night in social club world. Top of the pops finished at 8pm then after that the clubs would start filling up. When they started putting Rap on Top of the Pops the clubs were filling up much early, people were switching off and going out, not bothering to stay for songs they played after the rap thing. So I really think Rap killed Top of the Pops. At one point a turn in our club tried to do a Rap in their set. We were mostly Newcastle Brown Ale drinkers there, well lets just say those turns were shuffled off the stage badly bruised never to be seen again, not all those bottles were empty.
@@crazyralph6386 Viacom buying MTV in 1991 helped kill it off.
Ed Sheeran's giving it a good go!
Growing up in a musical household meant new albums were a treat for everyone. We would sit around the stereo with new CDs, especially when the new Big Shiny Tunes mix dropped. Then we had MTV music and DVDs of performances that were played in the background during parties or any social times for that matter. It was so ingrained in everything we did. Now everyone is stuck to their phone scrolling mindlessly with an occasional laugh. Myself included. Im trying to get back to the old ways of taking things slower... We stress ourselves out way to much lately .. we need to remember how to work AND play again.
I remember the recording industry defending high price CD's, saying prices would come down once their production capacity ramped up. I never did see CD prices come down.
I still feel betrayed by them because of that.
It was a licence to print money.
I could never afford new CD's so I was always buying them from thrift shops or second hand stores but then supporting artists through merch sales lol
I remember CDs being touted as being indestructible
@@valueape888 They can be abused more than vinyl, but not totally indestructible.
I have always loved CDs - when my dad passed away a few years back I inherited an amazingly huge CD and Vinyl collection (and me and my Dad loved a lot of the same stuff) - and I've finally got a decent setup again and started listening to CDs and Vinyl - I now understand my Dad's collection - it doesn't necessarily follow the bands, it follows the producers and the session guys. (Why does he have Steely Dan, Toto, Christopher Cross, Michael McDonald, Doobie Brothers, Eric Johnson) (why does he have Chicago, Peter Cetera, David Foster, Earth, Wind & Fire) (Peter Gabriel, Tony Levin, Manu Katche, Tracy Chapman) I now always read the liner notes while listening, and am getting to a point where I can tell who is on what albums from their sound (like a certain drummer, or producer) - to me this is really appreciating music - it's not about the headline name, it's about the band, and production and what each person brings to the table.
how nice for you to feel your Dads expression through his love of music, in heaven he is loving it when you do too.
I started writing on post it notes my thoughts on the music, or why I like it, and put it back in with the CD so whomever inhereits my collection hopefully understands.
Idk all those artists seem like they would go together in the same taste
@peanutgallery4 you may be right. But I couldn't list all 8000+ CDs and 900 vinyl. What about Pat Metheny, Martin Taylor, Norah Jones, The Church, Colin Hay... It's like a game, uncovering all of the links
@@DjDoggDadWhat an amazing idea.
I stopped buying CDs when the only place around selling them became Wal-Mart and Target. Now I buy my Depeche Mode and Erasure CDs on pre-order when I first hear they're dropping a new album. I don't even know if things like singles with alternate mixes on them still exist. And I don't buy digital versions because I don't have a smartphone. I miss browsing music stores
The last score of CDs that I bought were from Amazon, bought for the group rather than liking an individual song.
Music on Audio CD is digital too. You don't need a smartphone to play a file. You can put about 170 albums in full CD quality onto one 128 GB MicroSD card which costs $20. No reason to buy CDs whatsoever unless you like shiny plastic discs.
I do agree with Lars, that downloading without paying is theft. That said, sorry Music Industry, the comment about "filler" is spot on. Due to being forced to buy albums with one or two good songs per album, with the rest noise, I've not paid for music since 2005.
I have never ever thought that downloading/copying an ordered set of bytes is theft. Since 1982 when I had my first computer. It is the nature and side effect of the digital age. Creators need to come up with new forms of income, as they have. Lars charges $125 for a nosebleed seat and $1000+ to meet him personally. The actual song is simply an ad for his main revenue stream - the concert rip off.
@@neanderthalsnavel7411 I agree...it's sad, but without the revenue from music sales, concerts seem to be artists main source of income. That said, I'll never pay more than $50 to see any musician, or comedian. Same thing for sports. Baseball is boring on TV, but a fun day out in person with friends and the crowd. ...a minor league game yields 99% of the fun, for less than 10% of the price.
I remember buying singles at Tower Records for the B-sides and Japanese imports etc. Paying like $30 for 4 songs and then all of a sudden a few years later, all of those songs are on Napster and Limewire for nothing. All of my friends who had massive bookcases of CD’s stopped buying music. You knew things were changing.
Some guys were burning CDs even before Napster.
Big Time. I would check out a dozen CDs at a time from the local library to dupe. @@seed_drill7135
@@seed_drill7135 I had a TON of burned CDs ha.
@@michaelbell75 Burning cd's was a thing for us to turn each other on to new music. Then, if you liked it, you'd buy the cd. Burning cd's actually made people in my group buy more cd's because you wanted the real deal.
@@michaelbell75and now they just gather dust. You might drag them out if you an overwhelming urge to hear a particular tune.
This honestly just made me sad. I started playing drums in 1999. I was 14 years old. The death of physical media and music videos really affected music. I still play drums to this day but at the peak of my "career" all this was happening and made it even harder.
When my uncle passed he left me all his music because he loved to rock like I do, I had no idea what I would see, I ended up with two huge U-Haul storage boxes with 325 eight track tapes in them. From 69 to 81, some killer music. Those 8 tracks are still sitting in a empty room in the house in the boxes.
These conversations about the evolution of the music industry are fascinating. Keep them going.👍
It's only getting worse. As Art of Guitar pointed out, his pupils went from knowing every track on an album, to knowing only some tracks, to knowing only one track, to asking to learn a random song they heard on Spotify and they can't even name the band, much less the musicians in the band.
Listening to vinyls, knew every track. Changed to CDs, and suddenly had a Skip button, only a few selected songs were played. Ended up streaming, don't even know the name of the album, or sometimes even the artist. Just a list of songs. That's my personal "development".
If guitar players want to thrive they will have to do dance rock again like Steve Steven's did with Billy idol.
@@annna6553, Steve Stevens is epic. I wish he had more solo albums though. I've been waiting ages for him to follow up his last one.
I remember seeing that one. Sad
@@BFNope You had the luxury of a pen? I had only a pencil/my finger... etc.
One thing you can always count on is musicians getting screwed.
When a musician turns their attention to _not_ getting screwed, they likely lose their artistic mojo - Bowie in the 80s - or become horrible people - James Brown etc.
The groupies are everywhere...so, how can they not get scrwed?
It was uncontrolled GREED that killed the music industry. Artists were never allowed to include more than 3 good songs in a 20$ album. And the music industry did this because they thought that they controlled both the demand (by manipulating radio air play) and the supply. However, the moment mp3s became available online, the slaves were finally free of their shackles. And there was no turning back.
I agree. Back in the 70s I had discussions with my friends who said the top 40 lists were manipulated.
You can also add the creation of the IPod changed music purchases and the lack of album sales. It’s 99 cents for a song was more acceptable than filling your limited space then buying a cd or paying for album. Earbuds changed how people hear music and you have a private experience instead of blasting it on the stereo or in the car.
The quality of music dwindled as we headed into the 90’s and beyond. You no longer needed the entire record because there was only a song or two that you liked-music downloading services also greatly attributed to the hunting of songs and the loss of tangible products to hold in your hand and devour. You no longer needed album sleeves, tape jackets or CD booklets for lyrics because you could find the info online. The internet really began catching fire in the late 90’s and nobody was ready for the changes about to come.
Well you're off by a full decade. I can name plenty of rock, metal, rap, film scores, etc from the 1990's where the whole album rocked. By the 2000s I would agree every genre of music was on the decline.
Agree. Some people are looking for a type of (long, drawn out) ‘listening experience’ and will tolerate average songs or filler. Others do not court this activity and will not tolerate filler, so, for some, individual downloads were a no brainer when they became available. For others, maybe it didn’t make as much sense or have as much value.
Since it’s kind of on-topic, I really hate how “listening to music” on Apple Music doesn’t feel like listening to music any more. I’m sitting here with an incredibly powerful, high resolution device. It’s a perfect opportunity for tons of accompanying media. I still listen to some albums AS ALBUMS. I want information! I want to know everything, and I want pictures of it all too. You actually have to go to a different screen to even see the track progress. It’s less than 50% the experience it could be.
Apple do not care about music, they care about making money.
@@stevesmith3990 An unfortunate reality.
Apple tried this. iTunes LP. I bought 2 albums with this feature but, IMHO, looking at a screen is not the same as holding the paper.
I had a couple of "cover bands" in the 60's & 70's as "front-man" singer, guitar, keyboards. . . I am 83 & I'm encouraged to see the young musicians today on KZhead "covering" some of the greatest music of my era (1950's, 60's & 70's) as well as original songs of their own - - many of them are setting up "live" concert tours - - I hope people are getting out there to see & hear & support their efforts.
It never fails to amaze me the amount of heat that Lars from Metallica got for trying to fight Napster and illegal downloading. All people saw was a rich dude trying to make money but were unable to see that he was already rich. He would be just fine. But the new artists that need every dime they can get aren’t making crap and end up quitting the business.
The mentality now is EVERYTHING on the internet “should be” free How the hell does that work?? Who pays to produce and put it there??
agreed.
Keep in mind someone leaked a song Metallica was still working on and was rightfully furious about it, but when he saw that all of Metallica’s music was being shared, he freaked out at how much money he was losing, but it just backfired hard. However, when he acquired the master tape rights, then he was all too happy to talk to Daniel Ek about a Spotify deal, and there was an undisclosed big money deal Spotify paid a small handful of artists like Metallica who fully controlled their work, but their deal with Nugs also put that paid subscription service on the map for fans to get a massive archive of live shows (Lars was no doubt paying attention to how the Grateful Dead did business).
@@muziktrkr Right now , David Lee Roth is being unfairly criticized for removing A Different Kind of Truth album off Spotify . Now I'm reading complaints of musicians not getting fairly paid from online streaming .
@@RelicOnMauiRadio is free but the artists get paid for every play and a bonus if the song stays popular for years. It only applies to the songwriters in the US though because of course...
I don't recognize this dude that Rick is talking to. But he's awesome. He's a really good compliment to Rick. Keep him on for more! Talk about industry topics.
Check the description that goes with a video, click 'more' if necessary. The information is often there, as is the case here. His name is Jim Barber 😊
agree. You should check out that other video he did with Rick on corruption
His Substack is great. Rick has brilliant taste in jazz but James is better on rock and roll and R&B in my book. He’s more indie.
@@kendouble9705that's why he didn't say cage the elephant 😂
Worked on the business side of the music industry and witnessed its demise due to greed.
This surely has something to do with age. My 40 year old nephew would be able to name every member of the bands you didn’t know the names of. Probably wouldn’t do so well with the older bands-because those bands weren’t his passion. My 27 year old daughter could name every member of One Direction and all the bands who were from that era. My 16 year old could name the members of 21 pilots, AJR, etc. People know the bands they care about.
I'm an audiophile, a speaker designer and builder, and a music nut, and I'm shocked at 56 years old that the only places that I know to get CDs anymore is a used place about 2 miles away from my house called "2nd and Charles", then about a 40-minute drive from my house there is a second hand vinyl records and CD store, and finally places like Goodwill which I go to often. Best buy stop selling them probably three or four years ago and Target and Walmart I don't believe sell them anymore 🤔
I used to work in a Music shop. When I left it was still doing ok (1995). Then the local brick-and-mortar shops kept dissappearing and when the Czech legendary shop Indies closed in my home town, that was it.
We used to buy the first single and then the album when it came out!
DJs are required to have physical copies of the music they play so a fairly famous song would generate hundreds of thousands of sales of singles just from them.
Prince was the master of this. "From the forthcoming record..."
@@labnine3362 Many people did that besides him you know...
Wikipedia is where I go to see who wrote songs, produced albums, played on a song, etc. It's crazy that I used to know who Roy Thomas Baker or Mike Stone or Mutt Lange was. Now I know Rick Rubin and that's about it!
I mean if you read the liner note you always called him, “Robert John “Mutt” Lange…
I worked in the music/record business for six years - three years in the classic record & tape stores of the late 70's ('77, '78, '79) and then three years in distribution in the early 80's ('80, '81, '82). Who could have guessed that period would be the best time to work in the business before it eventually changed five years later with the onset of compact discs (CD's) along with the slow decline of both vinyl and cassette. 8-Tracks started leaving in the late 70's when cassettes started coming in at that same time, one listening format replacing the other, for use at home and in the car. For CD's, the analog-to-digital transfers couldn't expand fast enough, but they didn't sound good. When turned up, they were harsh on the ears when the dynamic range hit the wall. The first fully digital recording studio was Bear Tracks in Suffern, New York, owned by Spyro Gyra frontman, Jay Beckenstein. It took some time for all the other studios to re-gear into the digital age, but when mastered onto CD's (digital-to-digital) the sound was much better. But it still took years if not decades for re-masters to improve up to the quality they are today. CD's are still the most versatile listening format to use today for physical product. However, this is from the standpoint of being an original audiophile, where quality of sound matters. A generation or two of kids have little to no concern for such things, including their own favorite artists not getting a penny from all the music they've listened to for free, having no clue as to the end result.
Man I miss the good old days ! 👍
As physical beings I think humans attach value to physical objects. Even a crappy/hissy sounding cassette copy of somebody brother's scratchy LP felt more real, more tangible, more valuable than an mp3.
Agreed. Downloads and streaming are terrible experiences. I would never buy digital media. Having a physical LP or CD or cassette on your shelf, which becomes part of your home, your surroundings, that you can touch and commune with, that says something about you and your history the same way your book collection might, creates a stronger connection.
I remember the days of records tapes and CDs and have zero interest in going back to bulky and generally inferior technologies. Records are huge, heavy and fragile, CDs are also bulky and fragile, tapes just suck all around. We live in the best era ever for music listening BY FAR!!!!! I basically have all the music ever recorded in the history of the human race in high quality on my phone. The actual music is what's important to me, the rest is superfluous.
You never really own anything digital. @@joeshoe6184
I do appreciate digital downloads, but mostly because they allow me to own releases that aren't available physically in my area or when the physical release is sold out. I can then record them on physical myself. Digital downloads are a great additional way to sell, but not the greatest as primary sales model.
I still collect physical media of my faves
The last minute of the interview: So true! Tons of great tunes that never get heard. Top hits are not the only good music. Also if you are huge, your new song gets overwhelming airplay and becomes a hit even if it's only so-so.
Spotify directs me to lots of groups who have less than 1000 streams. Some of them are really good.
That's a good thing about the Internet based music business is though: you can still get music which is already out of print (because it hasn't been successful enough or other reason), for example on bandcamp. So music can still be discovered even if it has been a failure when it was released.
Bandcamp is the site that really drove home the idea that I'll never hear all the good music. There's just so much stuff that people are not only making, but able to release to the world at large.
And how did “you” get “huge!”😊
Metallica...Theyve been dining out on MOP since 1987.
Fascinating interview Rick. I came of age in the late 1960's and 1970's in Boston, MA and I was into rock and prog rock back then and still am. As a teenager I was an avid listener of the old FM radio station WBCN in Boston, MA. They turned me on to some great rock and prog music not heard on mainstream radio back then. Like you, I read all the liner notes, fascinated by the musicians and who the recording engineers were, sometimes seeing the same engineers on different group's albums. Listening to early King Crimson in 1969-'70, I was so impressed with Gregg Lake's vocals with KC that it led me to becoming a life long fan of ELP.
We both share the same feelings. I think we're probably close in age. We had the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, and Sinatra in the house growing up. I was 10 when I discovered King Crimson, and I used to blast both their first and second albums. Then, it was ALL prog! I miss gatefold and liner notes. It helped me to become a musician.
Great conversation. Keep it up.
I was at Heathrow Airport to meet a friend arriving and The Strokes walked out of Immigration and no one else there knew who they were. It was their first visit to the UK.
but how many in that airport can hum along to a couple of their songs ?
They stayed at my hotel and i did not recognize the lead singer lol
Gordon was the (original) producer! Transporter-raum studio or something like that - dark dingy spot, pleasant though.
So cool
I'm 58 and I barely know the band's name, let alone a single line of their songs.
As a young lad, my all time favorite band was the legendary Hocus Pocus and their classic Focus. I would spend hours yodeling in school, at home or just in my yard. Then one day they came for me.
🤣🤣🤣
Classic track!
House of the King, Sylvia, Live at the Rainbow, Focus 3. No filler. Just great mucianship.
Wasn't the band name Focus and the song was hocus pocus?🤔
@@870expressmag ya caught it!
Up until mid 2018 I had a collection of 700+ vinyl LPs and over 300 CDs, including albums that I’d had since the early 70s. However, in mid 2018 I hit some financial difficulties and liquidated 600 of the LPs, something I wish I could undo in part, but now I’m going back to at least get the CD version of some of the truly memorable LPs. I completely identified with Rick keeping everything he’s bought. Great video, Rick!
I have my collection split by decades. All of my 60s-70s music is on vinyl, my 80s music is on cassette and my 90s-00s music is on CD. Some of my favorites I have on multiple formats. White Stripes I have vinyl and CD for instance.
@jimrogers7425 hope You can rebuild yr collection in the future to come. The few albums that I have get rid of over the years have been big regrets. Never going to happen again 😀
Great conversation gentlemen.
2000-2010 was the decade of music forums, and I was in a number of different metal band forums at the time. Many of the big selling rock bands might have become faceless on traditional media, but a lot of 15-25 years olds were talking about music all the time on those forums. We discussed different aspects of the songs on the albums as well as the musicians and their influences. A lot of my friends got into progressive rock bands other than the big names (Pink Floyd, King Crimson, Yes) through discussions on forums for the progressive death metal band Opeth. Steven Wilson was producing their albums in the early 2000s, and he proved to be a gateway to a lot of non-metal bands for us metalheads. Things changed after Facebook became big and forums started disappearing in the early 2000s. I still talk to a good number of people I met through those forums, but I haven't met anyone new to have such discussions since the forums lost their significance.
One of the first places I found when I got online in 1999 was the Iron Maiden official website, so I could get news about the band. Of course that website also had a forum attached to it. I hung out there for years and made many good friends all over the world because of it. That is until they 'upgraded' the forums a couple times. Lost a lot of the history, then the band tied the forum to fan club membership.
Yeah, I was amazed at how so many young people were getting into progressive rock bands. I worked at a records store and I was the guy to ask if you were into 60's and 70's music.
I'm not a metal fan but the death of independent web forums still hurts me to this day. I really miss the atmosphere of them. It seems everyone online now is unfriendly- they don't wanna make friends, or form any social bonds. Just post catty clickbait comments then move on. No real discussions to be had.
Stu Sutcliffe was also a short term member of the Beatles.
Astrid Kircherr is my favorite member of the Beatles but there's no way Rick was going to let me get away with adding her to the list.
Yet equally great..
Thelma Pickles por vida!
Jimmy Nichols played drums on part of a tour when Ringo was out sick.
Don’t forget Billy Preston
still collect cds for multiple reasons-no ads/internet, ownership, no edits/removal of songs, convenience, sound quality, gorgeous artwork, supporting the artist. New CDs are still cheap & good portable cd players on amazon are at reasonable prices.
I love conversations like this. More please!!
I owned Edgar Winter's They Only Come Out At Night for years before opening the fold and reading who was on the album. I was very surprised to learn Ronnie Montrose played guitar on that album.
There is an incredible old video of Edgar doing Frankenstein live with Montrose on guitar, it's really worth looking it up on KZhead.It's from an English variety show.
I had an epiphany similar recently with ATFs DerCommisar. Had no idea it was a cover.
Im sure, this is my favourite musical/business channel ever, these videos are so good, quality over quantity
I love these interviews with Jim Barber!!! So informative.
I love your sit downs with Jim Barber. I learn so much.
The two of you gel nicely together. Loved the content. Thank you both
Discogs is where I go to find the liner notes for bands (who played on them, who engineered, etc.). Wikipedia is where I go to find out the history behind WHY the album was created, or why the band put the album out.
Great conversation as usual.
One thing not mentioned in all these comments is the down side of the enormous impact that Michael Jackson’s “Thriller” had. I remember the 1980 to 1982 period well because Rock as a whole was getting a much needed “shower” with new wave bands and others looking to the British Invasion 60’s for inspiration. Disco was on its way down after the excesses of 1979. But “Thriller”, as big as it was, brought MTV forward as the law in town, and every recording act had to play by the new rules. But the biggest part was that disco had returned in the form of Hip-Hop, leading to some acts that were truly lacking in the memorable department, sacrificing melody for rhythm, rhythm, rhythm. Add the “bottom line” mentality that is permanently embedded in the entertainment industry, and here we are. As for the internet, don’t forget said “industry” turned its back on Napster and fans having power to choose what they want. The point is; Greed ruled yesterday, Greed rules today, Greed will rule tomorrow. It won’t change.
The concept of the "filler tracks" was crucial to the full album demise. Both the industry and artists were guilty of it.
That's just funny to me, because filler was a problem for the LP going back to the '60s. Most rock and pop bands of the '80s were incredibly guilty of it.
@@jeremysmetana8583 Exactly. I think the other factors they talked about had far more to do with it than filler did.
Kind of like Vegas, okay for the house to win...buy a cd with one good song out of 10 tough....download a song...you thief!
@@jeremysmetana8583 I think the problem goes back even farther than that. Record companies would book a studio back in the late 1940's & throughout most of the 1950's. The band would go in and record a bunch of songs. Whatever songs the record company thought sounded like hits got released as singles. The rest of it got put on an LP. The only people who would buy an LP would be cult followers of a band, provided they had enough disposable income. While there are a few albums from the 1950's that were really good, most were just filler--and not even any hits! Back in those days, LP's were regarded as being appropriate mainly for long-form types of music--primarily classical, and maybe some jazz. It was actually Frank Sinatra who dreamed up what the concept of an album is with his _In the Wee Small Hours._ Still, it took the Beatles to really break open the idea of selling albums to the masses. It was only in 1967 that album sales really took off in the way we think of album sales the way they were in the 1970's & 1980's. I'm surprised Rick said music sales peaked around 2000. I'm not sure if he means number of sales, amount of money brought in, share of the entertainment market, or what. I remember music reaching its peak of having its share of the entertainment industry back in the late 1970's--the disco era--but even bands that weren't disco were getting a lot more attention back then than bands before or since.
It's really the industry. A band needs time to craft great music, but the industry expects a steady stream of creativity and product. That's just not realistic, so you wind up with filler out of necessity.
I'm a huge music nerd and I loved this! I'm also an old school guy that read the liner notes to every album, cassette, or vinyl I bought so I could know who every member of the band thanked and all the equipment they endorsed...it's all digital now, and that's ok but I miss those days😊 great interview fellas
Love the chats, could listen for hours.Good stuff-
I remember standing in line to buy 'that album' that was premiering at the music store on a particular day because I couldn't wait to hear it. Face to face interaction with complete strangers that through the music and details of a band you/we were not strangers at all. Common bond. I miss that big time. Around here I don't know where to even buy CDs. Yes I still buy CDs.. 😅
The CD skip button was the start of listener's attention span. My 14 year old son barely listens to s whole entire song. He has probably never listened to an entire album. Reading about who is in the band and who was involved means nothing to teens now because it's drum machines and a keyboard. Who cares who programmed it? They just want a good song.
They want good songs?
ya i used to read inside the albums about the band members...i enjoyed those rock magazines....
It’s mind boggling how much it’s changed since 2000 or so. And now a band’s bread and butter is made on the road, not CD sales. Which is probably why it costs a mint to see a live show these days.
One of the reasons that Taylor Swift and Beyonce continue to have the clout that they have, is because they're arguably the last of the superstar performers who can still consistently move millions of albums on new releases. Once they hang it up, pop music will effectively be dead because MTV isn't driving the industry like it used to up through the TRL era.
@@cmc5394oparva Ya Taylor does have that...she seems pretty major....i cant really see how long that will last....
Yo! Rick hit 4 mil subs! Congrats!
I kept so many music magazines back in the day. They were my go to internet before the internet for reference.
Love the lighting in this.
A few early 80's bands (not so faceless as it was the launch of MTV, but fairly nameless) Cutting Crew, Wang Chung, A Ha (famous for their song/video) Simple Minds, Survivor, Flock of Seagulls to name a few. Early New Wave music but had big hits. (with the exception of Cutting Crew which I would classify as rock.)
Fascinating discussion about how these trends happen, more like this, please! About liner notes, Bandcamp allows bands to post liner notes, credits, and song lyrics. More bands should take advantage of that.
That's why I love Bandcamp: lots of information for each track! And also, no 30 sec preview for songs but a limited times we can listen to them fully.
@@chez_jn Bandcamp is where I look for new bands, and even really old famous bands often post there.
Few bands bother typing anything, just as few bother with descriptions or subtitles on KZhead videos. 😒
@@crnkmnkyNot the Warning rock band they even have vlogs on how they composed the songs on their albums case in point the Queen of the Murder Scene album Vlogs 23, 26, and 26 were they talk how they composed every song in that album and a great album it is. You can check out the concert where they played that album live with some songs from their first album in between chapters. Just look for the Warning Lunario 2018 concert here on KZhead. Cheers
@@crnkmnky the Watning is the exception of you tube
Very informative Rick, thank you. Excellent guest too.
The reason why people don't know the 'other' members of rock bands as much anymore is that the performance style that allowed guys like Jimmy Page or Keith Moon to shine in their own right went out of fashion. That's a whole other chapter where you'd have to talk about the impact of punk and the idea that everything needs to be 'accessible'. In the subgenres where virtuosity in performance is still valued, people DO know all the band members. Like Tool for example.
Studying vinyl LP sleeves was part of the process...
Of course, it depended on what you knew about. I was always fascinated by who played what, and who wrote which song--but I couldn't have cared less about who the producer or the engineer was--because back in the day, I had no idea what a producer or an engineer did.
The "Thick as a Brick" album was a newspaper! I read that thing 100 times I think. They also had some suggestive photos included so that might have been some of the attraction for a 13 year old boy.
The non-rabbit. The sports results where every single score was either 4 or 0. The crossword in which one down's clue was "see one down". Brilliant stuff. Worthy of Monty Python.
Not only one of the greatest albums ever but incredible packaging/artwork and yet I'm not sure it was ever officially recognized (even nominated let alone awarded) for it?
Burned CDs is a major factor that doesn’t get talked about much in these conversations. More people had PCs and the speed got much faster by 2005. My band Taproot was on Atlantic Records, and we would do signings at record stores, and kids would literally bring burned CDs to the stores to have us sign them, which was not only offensive to the band but to the store. This was when I knew the revenue was definitely going to drop out of the music business.
I still buy CDs sometimes to my collection and to support my favourite artists!
I remember when it was time to drop my Modern Drummer subscription when, month after month, I began to fail to recognize who was on the cover. And getting the MD cover was a huge deal! Part of it was me getting older, but a lot of it was a lack of familiarity with the artist. It was a bit sad.
I remember when Zach Lind made the cover. MD had to include his band name below his name. They seemed to realize how names of band members were becoming irrelevant.
I often found my favourite tracks on an album changed over time.
Yep. It always annoyed me that people now with whole 'download the radio song for a dollar thing' is doing themselves a disservice for that reason. It fed into the watering down of otherwise fantastic talent in a band.
Great, great discussion. Thank you.
When the CD came out, the record companies hit the jackpot because they we’re basically re-selling what they’d already previously sold on vinyl. When the internet came along it was the same thing but in reverse. Record companies were totally caught out like you wouldn’t believe. They were so up their own back sides thinking the good times were never going to end. I ran record stores in the U.K. in the 80’s and 90’s and we thought the same to be honest but then … boom… it was all over. Closed the shops, now there’s very few independent record shops existing, most of them survive on second hand stuff. The few major chains left rely on T-shirts, magazines, books, headphones etc etc. The fun went out of buying music by 2000.
True. For those who already owned the vinyl album, the CD version always included one or two bonus track. For big fans, they had to buy it again.
The record companies made the biggest money off of Greatest Hits albums. Once people could create their own hits collections, that totally killed Greatest Hits releases, and you now even see big name artists on Spotify putting out greatest hits playlists.
Every now and then at a garage sale or flea market I'll come across an old CD that still has the original price tag on it, and I'll shake my head in sheer amazement that people (including me) used to pay that much for an album.
What was worse was PacMan was a quarter per play and some kids dropped a hundred dollars per day in the early 1980s playing that game.
They are a dime a dozen now. I bought about 35 CDs in a record store for like $100 few years ago.
I just bought 20 CDs for 40 bucks at a local Thrift shop this week!@@michaelbell75
@@orlock20 Video to come forward on the death of the video arcade: pay the amount you would've paid on a home system that had equally the same quality of graphics.
Even cassette tapes. I volunteer in a thrift store (I'm Australian where it's called an op-shop). 1990s cassettes come in with price tags of over $20 on them. That would be about US$30 now. Amazing.
This was such an unbelievable discussion, thank you Rick!
Thank you so much!!! Priceless info !!!!
Thank you gentlemen for this informative video! Rick, one of your best videos to date!🙏🏻🎧
Another great interview!!
Congratulations on 4M subscribers!
Great conversation !
So true Rick - you once again nailed the issues to the core! Great video... always enjoy your thoughful wisdom and your interviews with the "men behind the curtains"...
First of all: Congrats to 4m subscribers! 🎉😊 And please make Jim a regular - love your get-togethers / talks!
I grew up in roughly the time period you are describing and I can say that music magazines did make an impact on me, just not the sort you were talking about. Most of the bands whose members I knew were the sort of pop-punk that you heard on the radio and learned the names of by reading CD liner notes. However, I also learned about a TON of records and bands from reading guitar player and modern drummer type magazines because a lot of those magazines were singing the praises of jazz, funk, and fusion greats that I would never have otherwise heard of.
I like the content as well as the casual conversational style.
Great discussion
Some great insights in this conversation
I love these conversations you have with Jim. They are always so interesting!
As a fan of a lot of genres of music through the time periods you spoke of I can so relate to what you both are saying you and your channel is a treasure beyond words and each direction you go in through topics and interviews is stellar …. Keep up the amazing work!!!!
Great interview. As someone who was working overseas while this was going on, it connects a lot of dots👍