Today we test 4 different car engines to compare their fuel efficiency. We start by topping off the cars then running them for two hours. Then we compare how much fuel was used by each car during that period.
Cars:
2012 Mazda 3 Hatchback
2008 Ford F150 XL Triton
2019 Subaru Outback XT
2019 Ford Mustang Ecoboost
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You may want to try this using an OBD2 port on the car and keep track of how much fuel it uses based on that. You could graph it against engine temperature for that matter. Test it from a cold start vs. hot.
BEST advice yet.
That's a really good idea.
Yes. For a guy thats usually so ridiculously precise, the auto shut off on these pumps is sporadic to say the least, disappointing
@@JonnyD3ath At this scale, it's not likely to make a big difference, but it's not precise or accurate, I'd agree.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard it doesn't measure the fuel consumption, but the air intake and deduces the fuel consumption from a data table. I asume that this table will only apply to a warm engine.
Interesting experiment! I just used your data, and extrapolated, It is more efficient for me to drive my son to hockey practice, and sit and wait with the car idling, rather than drive home and back to pick him up after an hour. Thanks for the content, well done as always
:*( You should go in and watch him some time.
@@randoedits6906 always did, can't now, COVID BS
@@SteveEh Sorry I shouldn't of put my nose in it it just sounded different and made me :(. Forgot about covid cause I'm a dummy.
@@randoedits6906 Takes a smart man/woman to admit they're a dummy.😉
@@randoedits6906 Damn, you hit him in the soul.
Just keep in mind that the rate at which you pump can chage the trigger point (partly due to foaming) and when someone jumps on the pump on the other side, it definitely seems to change the pump rate. Good idea on keeping the same pump. This was interesting
Our previous car, a 2002 VW Passat B 5.5 (or 3BG) 1.6L Petrol (102 HP), would display the fuel consumption per hour on the display while stationary with the engine running. I remember that a warm engine with little electric drain would make the display show "0.8 L/hr" (that is a little more than 0.2 gallons/hour). That equals the fuel consumption of driving ~10km (6.2 miles). Turning on all the electric fans, rear window heater, seat heaters, head lights etc) would increase the consumption to 0.9 or 1.0 L/hr. That is how much the car would consume in 7 minutes going 55 mph.
My car does the same. I'd assumed they all do these days. I've found it interesting how much difference the AC makes when idling
thats perhaps why you would do such a test as they did here. to see if those numbers are accurate based on weight or volume of fuel. Some vehicles estimate many things.
Most modern cars do that and they are rarely accurate.
@@brianwhite4550 They have always worked well for me. But I also account for the physics/limitations at play and set expectations accordingly. What are you basing these "inaccuracies" on?
@Matthew Hayslett Would it help you to understand that it cant read the future to predict your route/terrain/driving style/trailer load etc like some kind of fuel genie... and thusly bases its estimate off the last trips fuel mileage. So when you just got back from that slow 45mph highway cruise averaging 30mpg it predicts you will be getting 30mpg the next time you get in and start your 3 block long burnout 🔥 😆
Usually engines start out at higher rpm when they're cold, so I would expect the first few minutes of warming up an engine to use more gas
Not only rpm is different on cold engine. Fuel to air ratio and some other things like timings. I suspect first 10minutes might show different efficiency.
I figured someone else would be saying this, so I came to look for it.
The same time that also causes most wear on the engine.
A gas engine consumes about 3 times more gas when its cold.
@@p12anjacobmlgnoscoper86 maybe US cars , but for sure not european or german ones. That is not such a big deal cause the difference on my 10 km commute between summer and winter is just about 0,7 liter per hkm or 5,6 L versus 6,3 L in winter with a 0°C winter and 20 °C summer both without AC on. that means 12% more during winter commute. But off cause if you count the first 5 seconds only then it can be higher but for sure not 3 times at least on our engine tests in climate chambers that can simulate -30°C nights. Next morning the cars do have to start instantly.
I would love for this to be the start of a series on fuel (and more broadly energy) economy in personal transport!
I get about 10 miles per PBJ on my bicycle.
@@slob0516 Not bad going - Frink tells me that's about 40 km/kWh: 10 mile / (350 kcal) -> km/kWh 1609344/40705 (approx. 39.536764525242596) :)
Include eBikes, and do a DIY rebuild.
@@slob0516 You should be able to go 10 miles on a bicycle with about 80 Wh of energy, that's equivalent 69 kcal. A quick google tells me a PBJ has 390 kcal. So you and your bicycle only have a 17.7% efficiency. That's about normal for an internal combustion engine in average conditions. So, you're actually not doing the environment any favors by using your bicycle! Or you guessed the wrong numbers ;-)
@@slob0516 that’s not good at all. Much better would be with electric bike and solar charging 😏
What a great, simple and educationally relevant to most people project I have seen you do. Thank You! The best part is that no fingers were injured in this one =)
You answered a question I have wondered about for a long time, so thankyou very much for that! I keep coming back for the interesting topics, the way you have just the right amount of detail and the genuine excitement you display for your craft. It's always a pleasure to watch your professional, interesting and exciting content no matter how long the video runs. Thankyou!
Efi computers on gas engines will do a fuel enrichment on a dead cold engine compared to one that is warm, usually determined by coolant temp. Just like a choke on a carb. Would be interesting to see if you could account for that. Also would might be interesting to compare to a diesel, at least a traditional diesel without a lot of emissions, that runs lean of stoich most of the time.
I guess it really only costs any of us a few dollars and a couple hours time to figure this out for our own vehicles. I too wonder about the diesel since they can run so lean. I offset a lot of my warmup time on my diesel by using my block heater, and it has a bonus of helping keep the ice off the windshield :)
Yes - and also how how much extra demand was due to the alternator (and other accessories). Actually I assumed they would have warmed up the vehicles prior to the idling test.
An emissions free diesel should burn 0.084-0.100 gallons per hour per liter of displacement. 60-70% of the average gasoline engine. 13% is due to the extra thermal energy in a gallon of diesel. The other 17-27% is mostly due to higher thermal efficiency and reduced motoring power requirements (compression ratio/combustion chamber shape and lack of intake air restriction). AFR is a minor contributing factor.
That's a good point and I think the best way to test that is to just idle them for however long it usually takes (20-30min?) to get to temp, turn them off, let them cool down, rinse and repeat. It would have been interesting to see a 2nd/3rd gen Prius Hybrid or Civic Hybrid thrown into this mix. As much as I love my Civic's, the Prius is just an overall better hybrid car.
@@zacharymorris9917 you've come a long way from the saved by the bell days friend ;)
Love your videos, its impressive how in depth you take these videos. I've always wondered on this question and this is a great baseline for most vehicles. Thanks for your knowledge and effort, look forward to more!
Great information, this was something I had always wondered myself but never put to the test. This is why I love your channel so much!
Definitely something that I've always wondered! Thank you and everyone you brought along for taking the time to do the research so we don't have to!
That’s a nice and practical test, over in the Netherlands we don’t get these cold winters but our gasoline is double the price. Our gas price is $8.23 per gallon converted. €1.93 per liter. Fortunately our engines are usually a quarter to half the size 😅
Thank you for sharing this very interesting and useful experiment!
I love your videos but I know they are usually fairly long. This was a nice change of pace and still very entertaining/informative. Keep up the good work!
Solid. I love yall changing perspectives for the viewer. Really keeps us excited and jump to the video. Cheers.
You should revisit this during the summer when the weather is warmer. A cold vs. warm air comparison. It would be interesting to know how well the EFI compensates for air density.
Absolutely. If nothing else, it's "common knowledge" that ICEs burn more fuel less efficiently until they warm up and that it takes longer to warm up the cooler the surroundings.
The fuel is different in the summer. Significantly less butane. That makes it difficult to compare accurately.
@@claws61821 I didn't know about "Cold-start fuel enrichment" until I messed with a standalone ecu back in my Miata days lol. Had to buy a book to understand injector settings like pulse width and even getting a good idle. Ended up having to sell it all but anyways yeah, it's in the programming itself to run rich until a certain engine operating is reached. I think a good example of this is how on old carbureted vehicles you typically have to give them gas as your cranking to fire them up.
Thank you for performing these practical, informative tests and sharing educational videos. The timing of this video release is perfect because I have been wondering just how much gas is used by car engines when running idle. I was particularly impressed by the efficiency of the Ford Mustang engine. I must say that these cars burned less gas than I expected over two hours!
I was impressed by the Mustang as well, much less than I expected
4 cylinder mustang. 🙈🙉🙊
@@justingauche6475 oh really? Didn't catch that!
@@justingauche6475 I figured the smallest they would make is a 6 cylinder but I just looked it up. Ecoboost is a 4 cylinder turbo 2.3L! I missed that somehow.
That was an interesting and thoughtful approach to this important question. I have wondered about this in the past, so thanks for thinking of and demonstrating this in a useful yet simple way.
You’re doing an awesome job with all the content on this channel. I’ve always wondered the same thing, thanks for the upload.
Fun fact: The Subaru Outback burning 0.842 gallons in 2 hours basically used ~31 kWh of energy while idling, or a rate of ~15.5kW. That's how much power a Model 3 uses when driving at highway speeds.
How long (time) could you drive at highway speeds for in the subaru?
The issue with Model 3, or any contemporary electric car in that manner, is the battery/energy pack. Read the original publications of Nikola Tesla on his Tesla turbine and, if have some technical background, you will understand why the current battery-electric cars are a huge waste of resources. Note here I am not defending ICE by any means as it is a hugely inefficient thermodynamic transformer.
@@lordsqueak It’s about 33 kWh/gallon for unleaded. The gasoline engine will have less than about 1/3 of the thermodynamic efficiency driving the wheels than an electric vehicle like the Model 3. The Model 3’s MPGe is 134. The Outback is rated at 34 MPG Highway. You get back some of it using waste heat that would otherwise be thrown overboard to heat the cabin, but that’s not much.
@@EfficientEnergyTransformations A Tesla turbine is a machine for converting high pressure gas into motion. It has nothing to do with electric vehicles .. what the heck are you talking about?
@Abstractism My magical electric car runs on solar energy generated from my rooftop for free and costs me a couple of cents per mile if I charge from the grid. And the truth is, even if I run it off of coal-fired or natural gas fired power plants (which is already getting replaced by solar/wind+storage), the amount of emissions/mile is still a fraction of what a gas car would produce. Seems like you cannot handle that reality does not match your assumptions and has to resort to calling everything "communism". Lol.
Engineering Explained did a video on the question of whether it was more fuel efficient to stop your engine at a red light or keep idling. He concluded that restarting the engine was equivalent to about 6 seconds of idling in terms of fuel usage. I guess that just means that modern cars don't take a lot of fuel to start up. I tend to think it's harder on the engine to start and stop all the time, maybe if it's a really long light, but also if you have a car that's maybe not so reliable, I wouldn't feel safe cutting it off in traffic constantly.
An already warm engine consumes a lot less fuel to start again than a cold one. Fun fact: The Prius used/uses a vacuum sealed insulated canister to hold hot exhaust gases for up to 6 hours! (yeah in a perfect world) so the engine can restart near-instantly in traffic, or use much less fuel after sitting. This has an added effect of being easier on the engine (no or little generator starter with sufficient gas temp) than "traditional" stop/start programming.
There was a video some years ago about a guy who hyper drives. Said person would shut off the engine while waiting at stop lights due to the 5 plus min waits. Would coast to stop light rather than run the engine. Was getting like 100 mpg driving like this yet it was super complex to do.
ya frequently shutting your car down and starting it back up is very rough on engine especially the crankshaft and camshaft bearing are without oio for few seconds before oil pump makes enough pressure to pump oil to those bearings. every "green" measures that car manufacturers are taking are coincidentally harming the longevity of engines. planned obsolescence, Perhaps
Batteries are the biggest victims
@@TykeMison_ 'Fun fact' No it stored hot engine coolant. Even in your perfect world...... 3l of exhaust gas would contain insignificant heat energy.
One of the best tests, because I REALLY wondered about this. Thank you for doing the tests; SUPER INTERESTING.
I was literally thinking of running this experiment on my own cars! Thanks for your work and videos 😊
Props for filling those folks cars up for 2 hours of their time. Good guy content creator !
1:14 Dunkin Donuts nearby may have benefited as well from those two hours!
The results were pretty amazing. Lets just run a few numbers to show how much fuel you would use in a winter season. Lets just assume that 4 months/16 weeks/80 work days. 15 mins run time per work day at .25 gallons per hour. Comes out to about 5 gallons per season on the low end and 10 gallons for a much bigger vehicle. So its not that expensive.
Thank you! you were probably the only one, who ran the numbers with the data we had, many others out here want to run a 8-hour test for whatever reason lol. I guess they don't know about extrapolating or simple multiplication 😁
If you were instead only idling for 5 minutes or so for your start in the morning and your start heading home it would probably be a bit less in a season. I only typically let my engine idle for 5 minutes in the morning and 5 minutes in the evening each work day. If I'm in a hurry it sometimes only gets a couple minutes but usually more than enough to give the engine a chance to start warming up.
@@kuhrd I totally forgot about the after work part. Yet either way its still a good ball park estimate for someone.
@@kameljoe21 yeah add a x2 your numbers are still good.
To me a more interesting way to contextualize that data comes to converting the fuel burned to potential road miles. 10 gallons per winter season on a small family car is pretty reliably about 300 miles on the road. To me that feels a lot more expensive.
Great video! I've wondered this too, so thank you for doing the leg work to figure it out.
I've been wondering this for a long time, thanks for doing the experiment!
A lot of folks run the cabin heater as well, which decreases coolant temperature and would increase fuel usage as the engine computer attempts to bring the engine temp up. Lots of opportunity for future videos!
It is said over 50% of engine wear is caused by cold engine starts. Not letting the oil circulate for a bit could cause the engine to wear out faster and a further environmental impact. Also, cold engines burn more fuel so it would be interesting to compare that.
Thank you for doing this, always wondered and never got round to finding out.
You always cover the most interesting topics. Thanks for another great video!
There is one issue with extended idling in engines the people should be aware of. It is particularly notable in diesels and has the same effects as running engines at high RPM at light loads (like electrical generators [alternators] at less than 50% load). It tends to glaze the bores leading to excessive oil consumption, loss of compression, power and shorter engine life. Here in Australia, it's not the cold, its
Here in Australia, it's not the cold, its leakage of Victoria Bitter into the air intake.
@@godfreypoon5148 Many would argue that any use of VB other than imbibing is ok and should be legislated, but I have never head of, or had to remove VB from an air filter box or intake. manifold. This may be an artefact for those frequenting Dingo Per Creek. The ingesting of XXXX or Great Northern by a vehicle intake manifold is considered a capital offence in Qld.
Good test, here in Italy fuel prices is considerably higher (about 7.5$/gal) but average engine displacement is littler so idling cost should be around 1€/hr , half for diesel. At work I checked the fuel consumption of a 400KVA diesel generator idling at 1500rpm (no load) , and it turned out to be 3.2 gal/h (full load 320KW = 24 gal/h)
Very good point, seems that they used the same pump on the same day, just hours after the first trial though. Good enough I would way, and when I thought about the "proper" way to do it, everything was rather complex tbh. Would love to hear a good option though.
I have always wondered this. Very well done thank you for answering this incredibly useful quesiton!!
Thank you for making this video it's really informative! I deliver for work with my personal vehicle and it has the auto stop feature for the engine. I really try to activate it as often as possible and now I see that it could really add up when idling!
For all those concerned about cold starts, I would estimate the extra fuel used would be very low, say 10 to 20 cents worth of extra fuel. The higher rpms during warm up is usually is only a couple of minutes.
I have learned it depends on if it is diesel or 'gas'. A cold started diesel can consume up to 200% extra fuel, until the engine is hot. If started in freezing winter, and the cars heating system is trying to defrost windows and the cabin (cooling the engine down) - it can take a *long* time before the engine is running at optimal/100% efficiency. This is why oil burners and/or electric heaters are really popular in certain regions/countries with cold winters. They help a *LOT* on fuel consumption and it is a joy to enter a car that runs great and is above freezing. Most can be set on timers, so fire and forget :ø)
It’s not only the rpm, it takes longer time for the engine to get to ideal temperature. Until then the engine consumes mor gas. So it’s both the factor of efficiency and time
Interesting results, I was aware of this though. Here in finland it's a bit more expensive as our fuel price is more than double of yours. Cheers!
Same in the UK... Huge difference...
Ditto here in New Zealand, where we're bracing for NZ$3/L this year (over NZ$11/gallon).
@@thromboid That roughly equates to $7.45 USD per gallon. At the height of the gas price spikes around 2010, I remember places in california selling gasoline for up to $6 per gallon. I was in Louisiana for the Hurricane response this last september, and I (well, the government) paid $2.40 per gallon. Combination of low fuel taxes in that state and very close proximity to the refineries.
perkele :D
That's insane
Hello this is Nathan Wallace from Winter Haven Florida. I love your channel, thank you for shedding some light on something that I've been curious about myself for quite some time.
Thank you.
These little quick-strike videos are great! Straight to the point and a definitive answer. Perhaps do more like this?
Thanks! Going forward, we plan to insert these here and there.
PHEvs can be fun for this question. My plugin prius can run its heat pump on battery when outside temperature is above 37-40F but it switches to gas heating below that and efficiency tanks for my morning commute. 30 mpg over 5 miles vs 70 (Hybrid mode) or No Gas (EV mode) over same road Edit: Obviously over longer distance the gas used to heat the car vs move the car becomes less significant
heat pumps are not best heating method in this scenario as the ambient temperature where they did the tests is clearly below 40f. if the ambient temperature is above 50f then hands down heat pumps rule and their efficiency is unparalleled but their comparatively narrow temperature range is their achilles heel
I have a PHEV but the EV part is probably an afterthought. The engine does not seem to stop below 10C, but it does charge the batteries a bit, just enough to move to the next corner. So it functions as a heating/charging device instead, even with a full battery. Really awful design, several lessons in bad engineering, but it's a short lease anyway.
At my old job, half of the fuel I consumed was idling in stop and go commuter traffic. I have since moved on, and now manage to hit the lower traffic times and areas, and get twice the fuel efficiency.
The results from the video seem to suggest idling doesn't consume much at all! I bet your higher fuel consumption was caused by the excessive accelerating from stop/start traffic 😉
@@bayney08 No, it actually correlates. I consumed very little fuel, just most of it was spent idling. I filled up maybe every two weeks. Now I travel more, and fill up every other day.
@@beliasphyre3497 same thing with my car now. City traffic's so bad in my country that I see my fuel gauge go down after a day of driving around nearby stop & go traffic. So much worse compared to driving on open roads, even if it's a longer drive.
Haha this is awesome I literally did the same thing a few weeks ago! The one other factor is a cold start with heater on high and the entire interior cold vs a warm start with a warm interior. I noticed a .11 gallon difference over 1 hour in my 5.7 Toyota Tundra. Colder obviously worse as my truck had an elevated idle speed for approximately 7 minutes of the 60 when truck started at 27F. As always great video! Thank you guys so much for sharing your knowledge and passion for science!
Thanks for testing this. It has crossed my mind
Something that would make a significant difference with this test would be the use of the heaters and the speed of the blower fans. Would really need to do the rest with the temp set at a certain temp on the thermostat for all of them or have them say on the middle speed. I also noticed lights on some vehicles and not on others. Car alternators are not very efficient and even putting a small load on them can increase their drag significantly especially when the engine is idling and making minimal power. I often do long trips at night and consumption is always worse in the wet when you have the resistance of the water on the road, are running the wipers, the heater, rear demister and the lights. It all adds up and it shows in the worse economy.
I measured less than 0.1 gph AC on and off. Nothing for blowers.
I doubt it. The heat generated by the engine has to go somewhere, either the cabin or outdoors through the radiator. This doesn't change. The electrical draw from the blowers is trivial compared to the power generated even by an idling engine.
Use of headlights have been shown to make an immeasurable difference in fuel consumption at idle, it has already been tested by the Germans.
Heater blower, rear defrost, heated mirrors, heated seats, heated steering wheel and lights have a significant impact on engine load.
@@TechIngredients might be surprised there. just on a guess I would say a blower on high with incandescent headlights on (not high-beams) would pull 0.4hp. also you could look at things like window defrosters, heated seats, radio, and ect. if I am remembering right, my 1.8t audi consumes about 0.56LBs/minute of air at idle which is close to 4.9hp so about a tenth of the energy goes to that. personally I put an external 115v coolant heater on mine that kicks on about an hour before I leave for work.
This is very interesting, Even when it's not frozen, you should let your vehicle idle for at least 30 seconds to a minute first thing in the day before you take off, to let the oil circle the engine and have all the parts lubricate themselves, also you should let your engine come up to operating temperature before you start flooring it up and down the street. Be kind to your engine and it would last you a long time.
The cooling of is recommended for diesel only, also with modern cars you can safely drive right away just take it easy for few minutes.
@@jantschierschky3461 I don't remember mentioning anything about cooling.. But yes you should take it easy on your engine until it comes up to operating temperature.
@@linkbond08I misread the initial sentence.
@@jantschierschky3461 👍
I have always wondered this. Thank you. This is top 10 youtube channels in my book.
I like your long format videos but I really liked this short one.
Great video. Cold starts are probably a little bit worse, especially in the -20f to -40 we get where I live. We really do like to warm the engine a bit here, acceleration and load on an engine with even thicker synthetic oil is really not great for them. They may be ok with it on occasion but it's almost certainly going to be rough on them over time.
Systems that preheat the engine without it running are a great. I know in some cold places in the world it Is not uncommon to have a electric heater installed on a car. They are plugged to a wall outlet.
@@MegaMoonse Yep, we had block and battery heaters in Alaska. You might get away without the block heater, but definitely not the battery heater. I had my car unplugged when leaving it at a hotel for 2 weeks (with permission), and it killed the battery. I had to do that frequently, so I started keeping zip-ties in my car to discourage people from "borrowing" my cable or outlet.
I'm kind of surprised by the results, I expected them all to use more fuel than they did.
Shouldn't be a surprise really. How many revs does an idle car generate? Just enough to tick the engine over and that is it, so it should be a comparative amount of fuel. If you consider your body like an engine (or several small engines and a couple of big engines all working in tandem), while at rest your body is using bare minimum and is quite efficient at consuming the fuel you gave it. You might use a little extra when you are cold, but if you are not moving much, your fuel requirements are very low, if you are moving and working up a sweat you use much much more fuel and you know it too, by the time you get to the end of the day you are probably eating in to the fat stores looki go forwards to a big meal, ready for the night ahead. And when you look at food that way you realise that it might be more effective to eat a heavy meal in the morning, and a light meal late at night when you are physically moving less.
Many are even less than this, my 2011 kia rio only uses like between 0.15 and 0.2 gallons per hour (maybe 0.35 gallons in 2 hours).
@@dennis8196 Actually your body works quite different. You don't use more than 25-35% more energy while woring out, than when you are "idle". Thats why it's a pita to lose weight.
@@fritanke2318 I think you have a typo in your comment there - looks like a missing letter "h". :D
once the car is warmed up and the battery is almost charged, then there's almost no load on the engine besides the ones to keep itself running and the efficency losses... so it makes sense that a modern engine would consume very little amount for those
EXCELLENT video for the public --- your channel is top notch!
this is great. i've been wondering this myself for as long as i can remember!
I can see it for when you just need it a few days/year or are somewhere without access to an electrical supply but I think it would be much better (cost/engine-wear/environmental-impact) to use a 300W block heater and, for the cabin, a 700W space heater (with appropriate caution to avoid melting things) for an hour or two. Either way, it's appreciated to have those points to ballpark how much fuel to expect to use. Thanks for another great video!
1200w circulating block heater for 30-60 minutes in any weather.
Maybe, but you'd have to factor in cost of installing block heater, extension cord, electricity for 8 hours, etc. Not to mention the repair costs when you drive away and forget to unplug the block heater!
@@57dent In northern countries like Finland, all combustion engine cars are equipped with block heaters when you buy them. Everyone here knows that starting a car in cold weather wears the engine. And everyone is used to plug in the heater one to three hours depending on temperature (or using a timer in the morning). Yes, it's happened once or twice that I unsuccessfully tried to tow my house with the extension cord (I didn't break anything). You don't run it for 8 hours, one to three is enough. You save a small amount of fuel, get less engine wear, get better comfort and no icy windshield.
@@johansvideor It doesn't get as cold in Arkansas as it does in Finland and pretty much nothing comes with a block heater, you can add one when you order it from a domestic maker on the build sheet or as a dealer option on imports, even ones that aren't really imports anymore.
Thanks for this, very helpful. I am disappointed that you didn't include at least one diesel engine in your experiment - maybe an idea for a future video?
haven´t watched a Tech Ingredients video in quite a while, nice to see you still here
Thank you for doing and sharing this, although it was not clear if the cabin heater was running and at what setting, off, low, medium or high. Adding it in the description may answer other's same question before they are asked.
Here in Sweden we connect the car to electrical motor heater that starts 2 h before departure, and reduce alot of the cold start problems!
Good thing I skimmed through the comments, was gonna write the same thing
If manufacturers were smart, there would be a circulating block heater on every vehicle sold in cold climates.
Interesting idea. However I've found the auto-stop feature on gas pumps to be incredibly inaccurate from pump to pump, car to car, and even day to day. Not sure how good the data is.
Same here in UK 🇬🇧 I always fill the tank up to the brim. The pumps here will auto shut off about 4 to 8 times before the tank is completely full. Also with my Toyota Auris 1.4Ltr Diesel the pump usually cuts out more often on a warm day. I think it has something to do with the air pressure coming out of the filler neck as the fuel starts filling up the tank and pushing the air out. I can't see this method in this video being very accurate. Interestingly running my little Toyota Diesel in summer as opposed to winter makes a massive difference to its fuel economy, it ranges from 62Mpg in summer to 28Mpg in winter around the city traffic. So over double the mpg on a warm sunny day.This is with UK Mpg and Imperial gallons figures. It will also soon be illegal here to leave a car idling or to sit in a car with your engine running. Obviously Stop Start switches my engine off automatically when stationary in traffic or at the lights and automatically restarts as I pull away.
I have found the same. That was not a good approach.
However, you could argue that the same pump on the same day would be relatively accurate, enough for this basic experiment. You would be within a few dimes most likely.
Yep, keep pumping til she makes a mess down the side of her flank. 😁 Give it a rock and let 'er settle, than squeeze one more in for good measure and any air bubbles to rise up. (Yes, still talking about refueling, but take that how you will!)
How were you able to determine its accuracy?
I was reading, and I found a comment suggesting that KZhead penalizes videos that are clicked away from at any time prior to the end of the video, even a few seconds. I hope this helps your editor and video planner, cause you guys make great content.
I have always wondered how much fuel is used too during that warm up! Thx for the vid!
My Father in law worked for a university bus system. In really cold nights the diesel buses were idled from 11:30PM to 5:30AM to insure they started the following morning. He indicated about 1/2 a gallon of diesel was used. This was only a few nights per year. Bus depot had open buildings to put the buses into. At that time diesel was cheaper than electric heaters.
ensure*
@@mokahless I tried to fight this battle too but apparently the arbiters of English has decided that they're interchangeable :(
There should be significant difference between a direct injected gasoline motor and port injected where there is a metering throttle butterfly and IAC valve. My request would be to do the same test with a couple diesels if you wouldn't mind. The very fact that diesel does not have a narrow required A/F ratio and there is no actual throttle on the intake of diesels, means there is not increased drag of vacuum. This is why 'supposedly' they sip less fuel at idle vs a throttle intake gasoline engine. Thanks for the video!
And a valvetronic bmw as well. I can see much higher intake velocities leading to more fuel dispersion, but they claim to reduce throttle losses and I am sceptical because I think the throtteling is now done by the valves and you still have a vacuum on the intake stroke...
I do a warm up these cold days - and notice my averaging figure has dropped compared with warm weather - this is obviously significant and has dropped about 2 decimal points on MPG average display - not perhaps all that much considering it warms the interior, engine and windshield etc.. Your test of course is way more definitive! Judging by your results, my small car probably uses about .25 gall maybe. Keep up the great work :)
Awesome video guys. Still one of the top tech channels on YT for years now IMO.
Would be interesting to see how usage changes w/ full heater and w/ full A/C.
You could calculate this with some simple data from the ECU. If you knew the pulse width of the fuel injectors in milliseconds at idle, the flow rate of the fuel injectors and the fuel pressure feeding the injectors. It would be easy to convert the milliseconds of spray from each injector to CC or LB / Hour of fuel used then convert to gallons per hour
Some cars have build in flow meter. My 20 year old Toyota can show idle consumption if speed is 0
My old BMWs have exactly this feature, but it's "hidden" behind a secret menu. On my 98' 540i (4.4L V8), the car told me I averaged 1.8L/hour at idle when warm. My 08' 550' (4.8L w/ aftermarket supercharger) burns 2.2L an hour according to the computer. It's an instantaneous value, so even minor changes (seat heaters, AC usage) can be observed. I don't know if other cars have this feature squirreled away insome obscure menu, but it wouldn't surprise me.
eehm... with all this data to be looked up, isn't it easier to just look up the idling consumption figure instead?
@@pattonpending7390 bmw uses fuel burned calculations for its oil life calcs. Not sure if all manufactures have this pid in the ecu
This isnt as easy as you think, injector dead time needs to be factored in, and dead time varies with alternator voltage and fuel pressure.
Oh man no diesel? Always wondered how long of an idle used same amount of fuel as a startup does.
Very relevant question, especially when the motor is already at running temperature. I can't help but think that the start/stop on most modern cars (mandatory here in Europe) is more of a feel-good measure that saves very little actual fuel. Especially when considered against the total fuel consumption of the car when being driven.
Great information! I live in Canada and usually idle my Mazda 2 for roughly fifteen minutes before driving to work on cold mornings. I don’t feel quite as guilty, now. Thank you!
I have always wanted to test this! Thanks! Consumption was less than I had guessed.
Me too.
Thank you for answering the first part of the question that I have been asking myself for a while. The second part, to which I wish I had the answer, is : "how much fuel do you burn while engine braking ?" I've asked an uncle that used to be a formula 3 driver and he told me that it depends on the type of carburetor, or injector, but couldn't give me a detailed answer.
I'm no authority on the matter, but I think most modern fuel injected engines shut the fuel off when engine breaking. Since the engine turns by external force, you only need to start inject fuel again once the breaking stops and it keeps going. Could be wrong though. Should be easy to check with an OBD2 interface.
@@AnWe79 Sure, but how do the injectors know that the engine "turns by external force" ?
In modern vehicles, none. The injector duty cycle is reduced to effectively zero.
@@MrGustavier Throttle position sensor.
@@AnWe79 *braking We prefer not to be breaking our engines.
Some perhaps unexpected advantages to an EV: near-instant cabin heat due to the use of a heat pump (or *bleah* resistive heating) rather than having to wait for engine coolant to warm up, and the ability to warm up the cabin in advance while still charging.
What about capacity/ lost due to low temperature? Batteries are chemical reactors. Guess what cold temperature does to battery. You say heater for battery - capacity. What to do when you need service, almost no way to fix it yourself. Some vehicles have electric heater built in for the start...
good luck running heat pump for temps below 0c or - 3c. their effeciency takes a nose dive below 0c. so much so that you need secondary heat source to bring back their performance. all this creates a huge drain on battery consumption. which already has limited energy that it can supply. so no electric cars are not better in this scenarios
One can install a electric heater on the block or waterhose. i prefer the hose model cause some of em has a pump to circulate the water when heating with ac. webasto and others sell em
Also no pollution sitting in traffic. Sure, you use some electricity for heating or AC, but no need to run the motor.
@@pfoxhound the battery in most EVs is heated or cooled to keep it happy... that heat comes from the battery's own energy and is "wasted" ie: not used to move the car. Sounds like you knew that though... as far as working on them yourself - after about 1985 when electronics got involved with carburetors and later fuel injection - "working on your own car" became a thing of the past. Other than an oil change or maybe an air filter - I'd guess most drivers any more never see the inner workings of their cars.
Thanks for the video, very interesting question and you can dig so much informations regarding energy use. Observations : - It's not that reliable to wait for the clic, depends on so much parameters (foamy bubbles in the tank, how the pistol is inserted, angle, depth...) Another difference is how much electronics or mechanical parts are involved idling : temperature set on the heat warmer, AC activated or not, lightings, music, etc. Keep on posting, regards from France !
Love that you gave us the start up clip of the Mustang! Was wondering if I could hear it purr 😌
6:33
@@trinkzconsistency I was talking about that exact part, basically thanking him as I was hoping for it anyway. Thank you though.
@@lololololololoalalal I would really love to have that sound in a car. I've heard how other mustangs start the engine and it's very different from the sound of this one. Do you have any ideas?
Years ago I remember watching some documentary on various technologies and of all things, they profiled high tech truck stops. These truck stops would supply and power, ac/heat to the truckers who were usually eating and sleeping in their cabs. This was a paid service, but it was cheaper (and greener) than idling all night because they'd burn roughly a gallon of diesel per hour just sitting there overnight.
I remember seeing that, it's like a huge thing there they just open the truck window and the AC thing just hooks on the side.
except in reality they suck to use and they really don't work that well. Having tried to use a few with my truck they usually smell like mildew and don't work as well as the generator built into the truck. Most trucks have onboard generators for heat and AC now rather than idling.
@@DevinRostron well that's disappointing to learn.
@Tech Ingredients thanks for the great content as usual, so other than parking you car in a heated building over night, what would be the best/most economical way of deicing/desnowing your vehicle on a particularly frigid morning? ps i live in ireland where it rarely snows so this is just idle curosity
Use a "tarp" on the window at night (outside). Ventilate moist air out of the care in the evening when you park it. If you can, leave a small (1mm ) ventilation gap in a window when you park. Keep the windows clean. Unfortunately you can't beat a garage or proper roof. Sub zero C night temperature here 3-4months a year.
Get a block heater. Same ones they use on diesels.
@@aleks138 block heater for sure works to lessen that idle time needed to warm up. 30 years ago in my Uncles 1982 Pontiac he had an aftermarket electric floor heater and a block heater! Fastest car out on a cold morning! haha
If you know it's going to be a *really* cold night, place an incandescent lamp or two (+60W) inside the engine compartment near the engine block where it won't melt anything and/or catch on fire. It's a 'poor-mans' version of an engine heat block, which basically is an effect resistor that heats up the engine block.
Block heaters are 500-1500W and directly heat the coolant. I have a hard time believing 120-200W just placed under the hood will make any difference
I recognize the background song at the end. That was the song you played on the best speakers video (or second best?). Wish I had those speakers. I still remember that video some years later. It was so epic.
Great content as always,you guys are great,thank you
In Germany idling your car is an 80€ fine.
Germany...always with the goose-stepping authoritarianism! What will it take to convince Germans that top-down government pseudo-authority is not the right way to solve problems? (I'm thinking it will eventually be a nuclear warhead or two. ...Or it just won't happen.)
@@JakeWitmer I spent a year working in Germany. Obedience is built into their culture. When they said, "I was only following orders", that's a real thing over there, it has a different meaning for them. Ever since the end of the war they have classes in school that try to teach them to question authority. Most of Europe is that way, but especially Deutschland. I think that is why they have such a long history of slaughtering each other.
@@RealDeanWinchester Yes, and it makes perfect sense when viewed through the lens of Prussian-style education. ...Just like America makes sense when viewed through the same lens. ...Because America adopted the Prussian model in 1852. The government's inherent interests are not the same valid interests that the parents and students have. They want to make obedient little worker bees and soldiers.
@@JakeWitmer pretty much. I remember that they had 3 or 4 garbage cans in each room 3 for recycling and one for "garbage". They would scold me for not putting things in the correct bin, 😂. After about a week of that i just started handing them my garbage, "here, you do it". Sorry guys, I can't be trained to perform your tricks. They had really good coffee though 😂
It could be interesting to compare or calculate where (in terms of the time idling) is the breakeven between leaving the car idling and turning the engine off and letting it cool down (especially in cold winter). When you start a cold engine, the first minutes, it takes tremendous amounts of fuel until it warms up, even if idling.
A lot of manufacturers run a very rich air to fuel ratio in very cold climates to help warm up the engine faster as well
Diesel guys up here in Canada where we see -40 all the time, have a fast idle module that lets you flick a switch to raise the RPM so it can actually warm up and give you interior heat
@@potatojz38 That right... and theres Friday after Thursday. That's true, too. But what does it have to do with the subject of my comment?
I love your videos. I wish you and your family the best. ✌🏼
Thank you for this! I've been wondering the same thing these last few weeks as you say the gas prices are crazy, especially here in Sweden where the taxes doubles it..
I think a much easier way to do this would be with a scan tool. It will give you lbs/hr of fuel. You can also calculate with injector flow and pulse width.
Easier yes but vehicle dependent measurement bias, since the car itself is the measurement device. Having the same measurement device between different experiments that you want to compare with each other is quite important.
Siena I'd not be concerned about differences in measurement sensors. On all cars the sensors are going to be very accurate as the computer relies on that data to deliver the correct air/fuel ratio to each cylinder.
I think after diesel gate most of us stopped trusting scans like that lol
Trucks idling, timely subject.
Just another 300k subscribers. Best channel on KZhead. Keep it up guys
Thank you. I appreciate your work.
I was surprised at first to see that the Subaru and Mustang used that much more fuel than the mazda 3. It makes more sense when you break down the differences though, the Subaru and Mustang have turbocharged engines, so they both have lower compression ratios to handle the boost without spark knocking (10.6:1 and 9.5:1 respectively). The naturally aspirated Mazda has a 13:1 compression ratio, and so is more efficient with no load at idle. The truck, on top of having twice the engine, is also the only vehicle here that uses port fuel injection (and as a consequence, only has a compression ratio of 9.5/9.6:1 despite being N/A). I'm also assuming it has the highest mileage... I'm almost surprised it didn't use even more fuel.
At closed throttle the compression ratio of ambient pressure to max pressure goes down dramatically. An idling engine has not 13:1 but close to 2:1.
@@pepethefrog7193 Sure, but it's all relative anyways. I'm saying physically the volumetric compression ratio differs between the tested vehicles, and that can account for their differences in idling fuel consumption. If 13:1 becomes 2:1, then 10:1 becomes about 1.5:1 no?
It might be interesting to look at the OBD2 information for cars while they're idling or especially warming up. It should expose at least the mass airflow sensor data which is pretty proportional to fuel usage for gasoline cars. I know my WRX idles at about 2000rpm until it gets up to temperature then drops down to 500ish, so fuel burned while heating the engine might be quite a bit more. It would also be interesting to see how much fuel a diesel engine uses since they don't have to fight the difference in intake and exhaust pressure.
Ah a fellow driver. I did exact test you mentioned comparing cold start vs hot start. Last year I calculated if hot start, it cost about 24 cent per hour of idling. Most of the gas is wasted while engine is running in open loop trying to heat up to running temperature. Maybe it's worth going back and graphing fuel consumption from a cold start this year.
My 1.9 TDI PD uses .45 gph when cold, to .22 when warmed up. From adjusted obd data.
@@ignasanchezl so as far as I can tell, the TDI PD engines have no throttle body but they do have some kind of anti-shudder valve that closes partly (I don't know how much) at idle. I'm surprised a diesel uses basically as much fuel as a similar displacement gasoline engine. It has a 19:1 compression ratio which is sane for a diesel. Maybe the variable geometry turbocharger actually creates enough enough exhaust back pressure at idle to make the fuel burn that high? That's my only guess other than the anti-shudder valve as to why it uses so much fuel at idle. Most normal turbochargers wouldn't even be spinning at idle. It could be that I'm way off about the difference between volumetric efficiency of car sized gas and diesel engines. Maybe that's mostly a truck/tractor thing.
anti shudder valves also act as a way to increase EGR recirculation. Also I might need to adjust my data.
@@ignasanchezl Yeah, I had to look up a lot of what I learned about those engines. Most of my hands on experience is with military diesel stuff like the HET an HEMTT which have a CAT c15 or similar. The engine weights as much as a car but its a whole lot conceptually simpler than any of the TDI PDs. When we were using HEMTT wreckers a lot of the time we would just leave it on even overnight. Of course I wasn't on the hook for paying the gas bill but I would have been in deep shit if I ever let it run out of fuel. I know for those its way, WAY more efficient to just let it run than shut it off and let it cool down just to restart it. From your numbers that seems less applicable to diesel cars.
Love the videos and the well thought Execution.
Cool experiement! I did not know it would be that much. It kinda makes sense that the older v8 guzzles a bit more though. Also I like that the auto generated subtitles write "music" when the Mustang starts up. Not that I disagree! 😂
I'd like to see the results of this test with a diesel or two thrown in. Thanks!
Diesels are great idlers so you can expect less fuel usage for similar displacement.
About 0.5 to 1l per hour on a 2l td. Depending on temperature and load. Realistically you're looking at 0.8l / hour on average. from a 2014 volvo D4
@@CynHicks if you can get it to start. In very cold climates you may need an electric heater to warm the vehicle before starting.
@@TotoGeenen totally agree. My Volkswagen Golf 2.0l TDI (Diesel 140hp) from 2006 uses 0.7l(~0.18gal) of Diesel per hour in idle mode, If the AC and other consumers like headlights or radio are off 0.6l(~0.13gal) per hour. Greetings from Germany
@@TheGamerFeat0815 yeah that sounds about right. Cheers mate
I'd be curious to know how accurate that auto shutoff is at the pump. Could easily be measuring differences in filler neck size or tank shape with this experiment and not really know.
The county Dept of weights and measures checks every pump every year. That's what that little seal is with the month punched out. They have to be within half a percent per 100 gallons.
Thats irrelevant as long as filled it up the same way first.
Those differences should be minimal with the same car, same pump, same position, similar environmental conditions. Car-to-car I would think those variables might matter more. Since they used the shutoff point to fill them before and after - should be pretty close.
Its usually a small hole at the end of the pipe, when it gets blocked by fuel it shuts off, youre probably talking very small tolerances between each fill.
As long as auto-shutoff works the same for each tank both fills it doesn't matter if there are differences between the different vehicles, the amount of fuel burnt will still be accurately recorded.
What a refreshing channel to watch on KZhead a channel to stimulate ones frontal cortex thank you
I'll just leave a comment for the algorithm, while adding that this channel is always interesting and informative, and often inspiring.
I’d love to see how this compares to a standalone generator or combined with an inverter and performing under load. Can you outfit a car to be an emergency generator, the same way electric cars can be used as house battery backups?
of course, i mean the alternator is a 12V generator. But you're going to have to find a way to fit your 120/240V alternator somewhere...
Car can serve as an emergency genset. I do use mine that way, but be warned... Anything more than 500W is going to put significant load on both alternator and battery. It can do over 2kW briefly but consider capacity of your battery - if its 40 Ah batt its going to sustain such loads for seconds, tens of seconds, if its 170Ah its going to be way better, but also take in account that your alternator is not going to meet its rating while idling. Overloading it is pretty easy. Also take in account that while you draw 1kW from the inverter, the currents on the 12V side are enormous and need proper connections and really beefy cables If you do have some space in engine bay, consider using 230V (or whatever voltage you need :)) gen directly. I would use some pulleys and belt system to engage/ disengage it. This solution would also need some rpm government. Some loads wont be happy with skewing or mismatched frequency and widely varying voltage.
@@JanicekTrnecka my truck makes a couple hundred horsepower at idle. How cool would it be to have a gearbox with a dedicated shaft for neutral (or a special gear) that plugged into a dynamo generator 🤨 I think I just came up with a patentable idea.
@@PatrickGunderson You re late wit that, some specialized trucks do have that kind of output shaft... sorry for being a partypooper :-)
@@PatrickGunderson its called a PTO and tracktors have it :) but actually gearing isnt something that makes sense for a generator's alternator. gears trade wheel RPM for torque, or visa versa, but an alternator is designed to work at a specific rpm with variable torque. constant speed alternators work at usually 3000rpm or 1500rpm. if you spin them faster they dont make 50Hz/60Hz at more power but rather 55Hz/65Hz which would be bad for the electronic devices. instead they modulate the amount of fuel squirted in, i.e. the size of the bang, i.e. the torque. these kinds of constant-speed alternators are much more efficient than the kind in your car, we're talking 40% in a car to 60% for a proper diesel genset. yeah despite alterntors being 90% efficient in general, how efficiently you spin them is where all the losses are.
i've always been told its bad for the cylinders, something about oil circulation. i'll idle till the windshield is melted depending on the day, and however long it takes, it takes.
The only impact is that idling reduces cylinder pressure, therefore reducing piston ring tension and increasing blow-by. Lots of idling will cause this acidic blow-by gasses to slowly thin the oil and chew up the TBN. However, idling for 10 minutes in the morning before you leave won't reduce your oil change interval by much. If you normally change at 7000 miles for example, maybe change it at 6000 in the winter. But this is really for people that idle for hours per day like patrol cars and contractors. Vehicles with smart oil meters like Ford actually calculate the idle time into its equation.
The engine will probably outlast the windshield.
The quickest way to clear windscreen fog is to use defrost setting on the climate control - this will turn on the a/c as well as heater which dehumidifies the circulating air for max defrost.
@@jimmychin8313 the AC does not turn in the freezing because (mr. obvious) it is at risk of freezing the evaporator.
@@andrewt9204 We change our seldom driven (less than 5,000 mi/yr) twice a year machines' oil in the Spring and in the Fall and this seems to work fine for n/a and turbo applications. We could probably do it once a year on the not turbos but idc.
Given how much fuel prices are rising, this sort of information is useful. Thanks!
Love the channel. A long time ago I saw a Kip Kay KZhead video about adding acetone to fuel to increase gas mileage. I think the hypothesis was that it lowered the vapor pressure and made combustion more of a complete stoichiometric burn. I'd love to see a video on that. Maybe a car would be too risky, but a cheap generator and heat guns would be a good way to have a constant load to run a fun experiment.
Kip Kay lol, I remember him. His imfamous laser pointer hacks cost me a lot of time and money(they cost a lot back then). Never worked. Good idea about using a generator and a resistive load.
Hearing you say "smaller 2 to 3L engines" sounds so strange to me. I know you are making a comparison to the F150, but small engines here in Italy (and most of Europe afaik) are 1-1.2L, bigger engines are the ones over 2L with 1.6L being one of the most favourite balances between performance and consumption. So I can't really wrap my head around the idea of people going around with such fuel hungry vehicles. Also as others have pointed out, cold engines run at higher RPM until the starter disconnects, so it would probably burn more gasoline.
In the US, it isn't uncommon to see a vehicle make a single trip of perhaps 3,000 km or even up to 5,000 km for a vacation road trip. I know I am much more comfortable on such a trip in a much larger vehicle than most Europeans are used to. And while we complain about the cost of fuel, I know in many places it is much higher. So it isn't particularly economical, but it is more enjoyable. Driving from one coast to another, Los Angeles to New York City, is about 4,000 km. One way. In my experience, the larger engines tend to hold up to that kind of work load somewhat better.
@@DavidSprings Such long trips are almost unthinkable in Europe. We rather take a train or fly.
@@johansvideor A prevalent TV ad in the seventies was "See the USA in a Chevrolet."
My 1.9TDI takes 0.6l/h when warm and 1,2l/h when cold. Thats so little, that it needs a diesel turbine to keep warm when idling in the winter.
After seeing Chinese parts in VW manufacturing I'm hesitant about long term ownership of a TDI
@@iseiyoulaitre the 1.9tdi is known to last forever, mine only got 300k on the clock, but a have a mate which is close to 1.2m now.
Great vids, been subcribed and following for while now.. funny thing, my girl and I were coming home from visiting highland dh bike park in NH , when we stopped at that exact gas station. knew it the second you started the vid..haha. I could never see the sense of the newer cars that shut down the engine at stop lights, it seems the fuel savings would be minimal compared to the addl wear and tear on the starter and battery/chg system over time. Even with many cars not using the stater to restart the engine (the ECU sees crankshaft position where the engine stopped and then sends some fuel and an ign event to the cyl at,or slightly past tdc and best suited for combustion. Still doesn't make that much sense.The reasoning may also be so manufacturers are able to claim less "overall emmisions" keep up the great vids.!
We had 10 days straight of 35 degrees celcius in Melbourne Australia and i really enjoyed spending some idle time in my 6 cylinder 4 liter ford falcon with the radio and aircon on in the driveway in the shade. Best value ever!