Wooden pin pilum
2023 ж. 25 Қыр.
70 846 Рет қаралды
Roman Leginaries were trained to throw pilum (javelins), hard, far and accurately. I can't, so I recruited a Team GB javelin thrower for my tests. Of course these weapons could be thrown back so an intriguing line in a Roman text explains that the head could be held in place using a wooden peg.
This peg would break when it hits the target and makes the pilum harmless if thrown back.
Clearly this needs making and testing; so I did.
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Don't know if anyone has pointed out the reference, but it's Plutarch's Life of Marius 25. "When these things had been reported to the Cimbri, they once more advanced against Marius, who kept quiet and carefully guarded his camp. And it is said that it was in preparation for this battle that Marius introduced an innovation in the structure of the javelin. Up to this time, it seems, that part of the shaft which was let into the iron head was fastened there by two iron nails; but now, leaving one of these as it was, Marius removed the other, and put in its place a wooden pin that could easily p531 be broken. 2 His design was that the javelin, after striking the enemy's shield, should not stand straight out, but that the wooden peg should break, thus allowing the shaft to bend in the iron head and trail along the ground, being held fast by the twist at the point of the weapon."
Seems pretty clear to me. Does it mention if this innovation became standard practice? Or if was used by anyone else? I feel like dependability would be more important than an innovation that caused failures to any degree.
@@MrBottlecapBill marius like reinvented the whole army and their methods and equipment, so probably the reason the story is being told is because it did become standard
@@MrBottlecapBill I don't think there's any other references to determine wether this would become common parctice. As Tod says in the video you can easily use thicker/stronger wood to make the pila basically never break on the throw, just at the cost of them being a bit less likely to break on impact. (as Tod says, 30% breakage rate would still be better than 0% on impact) But at the same time I am not sure this innovation would be all too popular over all; Pila were sometimes used as melee weapons and there the wooden peg would be absolutely unacceptable; it'd also increase the risk of breakage during general handling of the weapon (for example when it gets stuck beteen branches and is pulled loose or when it's accidentally knocked against some hard object) it should also be noted that there's many scenarios where the weapon being thrown back is just not realistic; in a field battle Pila would often be used just before the charge, and in such a situation it's not really a good idea to start picking Pila from the floor because it will break cohesion; this goes double when the pila hit shields/bodies; it just wouldn't be realistic to start trying to pull a Plum out of a shield while the enemy begins charging you. It's possible that for situations like sieges pegs could be replaced, though.
Thanks Joshua. So covering a few points here from other commenters. There appears to be only this one description and no archaeological evidence, but this reference is to.a real object (assuming he didn't make it up). However there is no description as to how it worked. I completely forgot to describe how I made this one, so I will knock out a quick film covering this. Please also bear in mind this was my first attempt at it and I could endlessly mess about with pin diameters and materials but I think I showed that the system can work and probably work very well and reliably but just not yet.....But I also agree that it has to absolutely work every time so if it fails on launch, ever, it is no good. Also bear in mind that Michael is a usually good thrower and can deliver really fast direction changes that are causing the problem and most people can't throw like that. The top hole through the shaft is a lozenge (elongated hole) and the bottom one is a regular hole, a steel pin goes through the slot hole and allows the head to move up and down a few mm, allowing the wooden pin that is fixed to get sheared. Which wood? is of course a question but as the Empire was so large, they would have sourced and tested local woods and one I would like to try but don't have is crab apple as that is a UK wood used for 'tough as hell' jobs like flails. A point to note though is that perhaps this was all about solving a problem that was never a problem; was pita getting thrown back a real problem?
If it was a siege, the weighted pila might be used. They have a shorter Wooden shaft (shown on trajanus column) makes it easier to throw off a rampart. The weight hits harder on impact so if people holding shields above there heads to avoid arrows, it just smashes through. And you don’t have the fast acceleration to break the wooden pin on the throw, sins you basically have to aim and give it a light throw, let gravity take over. Still smashing the pin, rendering it useless, The man underneath it useless, and the shield got an extra anoying limb making it useless aswell. (Why we call it the pila muralis in our reenactment group) might give you something to play with @tod.
Seeing how Michael goes from "what is this old dude on about?" To now full understanding and full participating with input is so amazing
i just love Michael :D
Q
If Michael ever gets problems with self-esteem, all he needs to do is read the comments under his videos with Tod. He is a good kid
Fantastic stuff Tod and Michael! I've wanted to see these tested for AGES.
You and me both! T hanks Matt and there will be more coming I suspect but nothing major for a while, though just about to film a 'my next thoughts' vid
Michael breaking the pin during the throw is a real testament to how much power he is putting into those throws. Most of us would probably have trouble breaking the pin by shaking it sideways, let alone just by throwing.
And that is exactly why I didn't make the pins strong enough
I second this! Young man has a serious arm! I've tried to throw spears and such and it's tricky!
The power of the heavy javelin, imagine what a fully trained Javelineer could achieve.
even with the broken pin, the lad sent the broomstick with enough force to put a quite a dent on the shield. reckon he could toss a fully armored dwarf across a chasm easy.
Don't tell the elf! @@wytfish4855
having Michael again is a treat, what a nice chap :D (I hope I'm using the British term correctly)
Perfectly!
I also love how Michael is improving in throwing these. You can see that it is about training actually and once he knows what he's doing, he can do really good damage. I find this as a huge issue with alot of tests of historical weapons because people using them are not skilled enough to prove anything.
I get that Tod has a lot of confidence in Michael's accuracy. And deservedly so. But him standing in the line of fire still gave me anxiety 😅
Don't worry I was well off line
@@tods_workshopI think what gives us anxiety is the fact that your at the front of the thrower and not at the back or at the very least in line of them. You see, modern safety ranges teaches us to be behind the shooter so that no unfortunate mishaps occur during a mechanical failure.
The way Michael keeps striking the Head/Neck area is downright intimidating
Camera depth. He's pretty far imo
Big difference between being downrange and being in the line of fire. He was obviously well off to the side.
There do exist Pila, with parts of the haft remaining, from the site of Oberaden(Germany). (p. 18; THE PILUM, The Roman Heavy Javelin; M.C. Bishop).
Thanks
The handshake at four minutes and 50 seconds was amazing. It was just a testament of saying if you were in battle thousands of years ago you could’ve done well.
4:50 works as well :)
Handshake? I only see a helmet well and truly dusted through but I think you meant at 5:22 🍻
I was using voice to text. I have a physical disability that makes typing a little bit more difficult so sorry about the errors I’m too lazy to fix them. Everybody knows what I mean hahaha
@@gideoncornfield4732 knowing that now I sure will help you out any time I see you if its needed 👊
It is fantastic that Michael is helping you with these. He's no legionary but he's one of the closest things we can get to these days and is likely within the skill variance level of the guys back then. I'd also recommend taking more types of wood than 1 as they do not seem to take much space.
Imo they should change the concept of modern javelin and have them chucking pilum at targets 😂 I'd totally watch that!!
It looks like he's been practicing his accuracy
@@HonestBottom id also like to reintroduce the gladiator fights but with volunteers, n true criminals no one likes (rapists, murderers, certain corrupt politicians...) :D
@@milire2668 Hahaha I used to say that too!! Absolutely agree lol
Michael would be an elite legionary. It's not like people from the past were all superhumans.
One thing to consider is that the pin doesn't need to break on impact instantly, as you'd still need to pull the pilum out of whatever it struck. This most likely will involve a lot of levering and sideways force being applied, which probably would lead to the pin breaking even if it didn't just from the impact itself.
Not really, the pilum has a long enough head you can use that imho.
True, in heat of battle, it is almost guaranteed the wooden pin will break under such condition.
Pulling it out of the ground seemed easy enough, in their setup anyway. If the ground was dry and rocky, it might not stick in much at all. Still, even some breaking would be better than none.
The pin broke more on throws than on hitting the ground, so you're probably going to pick a stronger pin that throws well and doesn't break on the ground
@@winston6369 Exactly; you'd have to have some sort of specialized scrounger-boys or something [like ball-boys in futbol?] that came along behind a unit as it marched/fought and picked up things left in the wake, possibly to be repaired on the spot or taken quickly to some person/place the items could be replaced, then handed to the next unit that was heading into battle, or to a runner that was heading back up to a unit at the front who had already expended most/all of their ranged weaponry and attempt to resupply some of the men in that unit with some ranged weapons that had been scavenged and repaired but previously came from the enemy. All plausible, but rather unlikely, as winston rightly points out imho.
The first throw’s POV made me jump from my seat. What a shot 🫡
That helmet one made me wince. Insta-death is better than dying slowly, but damn, having your brain forked by a spear somehow feels really bad.
Yepp, Mike's helmet piercing head Shot had me in awe 🙏
Michael is getting good at this! He must have a claim to be one of the best pilum throwers around
What a brilliantly simple middle finger to weapon scroungers like me. Frustrates me immensely that this idea is so good, and I love it so much.
well all you have to do then is carry some wood pins
@@Sawtooth44 Doesn't help my plan for infinite projectiles mid-battle much if I have to stop and repair each one to use it.
The wooden weak point idea might have not been such a great idea overall because it was only briefly used by Marius and then was abandoned and not used again.
Sawtooth. The problem is that you would then have to remove the old bits and replace it and throw it back all in about 15m
@@Intranetusa Even if it wasn't worth sustaining, it's remarkably effective against my personal compulsion to gather and hoard any expendable ammunition.
I hope Michael enjoys participating in these videos as much as we enjoy having him featured on the channel. It's been fantastic having him help you out, Tod!
Just gotta love Todd's videos. Always going to learn something and have fun
Michael would make a wonderful model for Renaissance artwork. The first 20-30 seconds where he's just casually standing with the pilum had just a wonderful aesthetic to it.
I would not want to get hit by anything thrown by Michael. Even just a paper ball.
Yep, Dude is a machine. Todd couldnt ask for a better guest.
The more Tod does about spears, javelins, pilum and other thrown projectiles is they really work. That first throw to the right chest of the dummy that'll put anyone down and probably for good with out getting good medical aid quickly. Spears, javelins, pilum specifically are all fairly simple to make and take far less material than a sword. You could arm lots of people really and effectively with just spears and shields. Spears in one form or another have been used for basically all of recorded history. Even in modern times the rifle and bayonet is just slightly shorter spear.
I agree, especially since im into horse combat and a lot of people seem to forget there wasn't just horse archers, there was a lot of javelin and dart throwers from horse back across many cultures and time periods. Its really lovely to see someone talking how they are built and just testing and testing
Reconstructed iron parts or various Roman pila seem to vary from around 0.2kg to 0.6 kg. Many gladii could have around 0.4 to 0.6 kg of iron in them as well, those weren't large swords at all. So the difference wouldn't be a great, though pilum shaft likely would be still way easier to forge, for most part.
@lscibor The pilum was also more complex than your average spear/javelin.
@@beowulfsrevenge4369 Depends on pilum, and exact "average spear/javelin". Pila were often, if not usually fairly simple round long shaft, with simple triangular, or similar pyramidal point. While plenty of ancient spearheads have quite elaborate broad blades, with varying thickness, spines, point reinforcements, etc.
10:40 "These are proper weapons. You don't want someone throwing these at you". My favourite statement
If you want to do more tests on the shearing force required for different woods at the end, maybe use a simple spring scale (or a digital luggage scale) that have a “max load experienced” setting, or do it horizontally, with hanging weights from the tip of the pilum. Drying of the wood may influence the force required, too. I think this is a very interesting approach you have there. I certainly had some fun watching this! Edit: for weights, maybe use an empty water canister, and pour some in slowly, instead of metal weights or such. That way, it is slower, but easier to find the actual breaking force.
There are also tools specifically designed for measuring trigger pull, something like would be useful, assuming that such devices can measure high enough since trigger pulls probably don't go all that high and scales might max out at a pound of two over the heaviest of trigger pulls.
I was very surprised that he didn't try using something like water canisters or weights or similar.
It really is a good idea to have the hands on soldier throwing as well. No two hands, arms, individual height, weight, skill are the same. There really is a thing to delve into the details when skill is such a factor.
I hadn't thought about using a scale until I started filming and then couldn't find my bow scale, which would have left the reading up, so couldn't annoyingly
might as well do a proper setup for newton-meters or foot-pounds of leverage/torque. very simple rigs, those.
Michael is an amazing athelete, and I hope he turns his talents and mind to something like experimental archaeology as he grows older. There are likely very few people in the world with even the moderate amount of experience he has accrued in throwing a replica pilum. Combine that with a bit of scholarly training (formal or informal) in history, and he would be a truely unique individual!
Selling the Trebuchet?! You better make an even better one then Tod!!! It's a fan favorite!
No plans for a new one I am afraid
You can use any wood you want by adjusting the thickness of the pin and the size of the hole it goes into. Things could get complicated and confusing if you aren't careful, though, but once a pilum is made, it wouldn't matter.
Agreed but I had to settle on something and then make it work from there
The Video with Michael are always very nice. His Feedback ist really helpful and his throws are amazing. Thx to Michael for taking part in these Videos.
oh no, tod is selling his trebuchet :( hope he will make a new improved one
the wooden pin idea is great technology. As a woodworker I can imagine they would have used olive and laurel wood.
I am familiar with olive wood, good and hard, but my laurel is a small tree in a bucket, does it have a strong wood also?
@@romgl4513 I've a few decently old laurels, trunks 35 cm or so, but the wood is not very strong, and it grows relatively quick. I could see boxwood, oak, chestnut and olive for sure
@@romgl4513 Yes. It's been around ever since the romans took it in Europe. It used to be used as door knobs and chest handles etc. Archeologist found some used as nails/pegs in ships. Very strong. Insects don't eat it. Due to containing to much poison (green). no more in use today. But dried perfectly safe. I make walking sticks from them (as hobby).
@@offgridcabinbelgium Old growth Olive wood is very hard indeed. Spindle wood, medlar and buckthorn wood are good as well.
The barbarian with a pilum through his cranium isn't in the mood to return the favour.
Michael is such a Chad. I am socglad Todd brought him in, you can clearly see how much of a difference the skill level of the weapon user makes. It seems obvious, but people nowadays always seem to overlook this very fact.
What amazes me is how precise even javelins can be. With a few attempts you could actually take a specific person from surprising distances with these weapons. The generals from antiquity that lead from close to the line had to be quite crazily brave.
@tl8211 Yeah. I mean, there is a reason why spear throwing is an Olympic sport in the first place. Back then many cultures used javelins extensively. And they worked brilliantly, otherwise they wouldn't have lasted for a thousand years.
@@Ascaron1337 Yes, I knew they certainly would work, and expected them to have good range, what surprises me is the accuracy you can achieve, that is IMO well beyond what you would need as a mass projectile weapon. As someone who only ever shoots a gun, the idea of being man-accurate without sights or even any direct visual cue is really impressive (even if it shouldn't be impressive... humans hunted with these for millennia, so obviously they had to be very accurate... but I just didn't think of that).
21:11 that actually looked devastating. The way the helmet tilted forward... Just wow. And as always huge respect to Michael! 💪🙏 PS: Mike's throw punching through a goddamn helmet...this was just intimidatingly scary. 🙏
I love seeing him open up to the camera and at least to my eyes, get more interested in the results and giving insights to the armor penetration.
Maybe a pilum with a socket, rather than a tang would be better in this case. For this one, I wonder if having the metal pin be closest to the shaft would be better and less likely to break on launch.
I second that notion
We want more Michael!
Always hyped to see an episode with Michael!
Is it just me, or has Michael become much more precise in his throws? Sure, he missed twice, but the times he hit they were square on!
Shear pins in engineering have a shear point, a groove around the pin at the place you want it to shear the deeper the groove the easier it breaks, a grooved bone pin could be an option.
It´s nice to compare Michael in front of the camera from the first video to this one. He is much more at easy, an you can see clearly that he is enjoying this colabs.
I like seeing lads with geezers. I was always the young guy hanging with the old guys, and now I'm slowly but surely becoming the geezer. Old dudes know the most and have the best stories. I love this series of videos. And the pilum research is great. The only of its kind. Very cool.
Great video! I can tell Michael's really getting interested and comfortable with this role as the historical javelin thrower
Michael is definitely starting to get skilled with those pilums. And amusingly, he's clearly starting to learn about these things from the other side as well, which is good, means he can do the testing better as well as help you adjust anything that needs it. And yeah, you definitely strained more on the boxwood. With oak clearly the 2nd best, and no discernable difference between the others.
Oberaden is the find site for the pilum that has the whole length of the metal shank, and the triangular "block" where the shank is riveted to. I'm not aware of other finds that have more of the wooden shaft. Oberaden, from the illustrations in Bishop & Coulston's "Roman Military Equipment", has one pilum with 3 rivets, and the other with 2 rivets, although both artifacts have the metal "colette" at the tip of the wood "block" firmly wedged in place with 2 metal wedges. So, IF there is such a thing of a wooden peg, as I think the source for this is attributed initially to Caius Marius, but, I am not aware of ANY surviving written reference explaining this wooden peg variant, so I'm of the school of thought that this is a Modernism that has become "fact" when there's no supportive evidence for its existence. Or if it did exist, it didn't seem to be in use for very long, going only by the 3-rivet artifact. It appears the Romans put a lot of effort into making sure the iron did NOT break on impact, at least in the 1st century CE/AD period, again, IF such a variant even existed. We also don't know which of the rivets is supposed to be the wooden peg, but again, we don't even know what the original source(s) is supposed to be describing this variant, if it ever existed. it's a similar problem we have with the "weighted" pilum. We have a single depiction in sculpture showing a sphere-like shape, but no artifact has been excavated; Polybius mentioned a socketed, shorter, barbed-head "lighter" pilum, and a "heavier", supposedly the tang & rivet version, to throw into the enemy at [close] range. The whole idea of a "weighted" pilum (ie Vegetius) may instead be referring to the Plumbata. I'd also like to point out that all of the Pila (irons) that have been found, that I am aware of, only some of them are bent, in a gentle curve. But there is no other period description I'm aware of that specifically mentions the design of the pilum was even to bend/break on impact. The excavated examples may have been bent on purpose as a votive/sacrifice, ritually "breaking" the weapon, or, making it otherwise "un-usable" to an enemy who would have dug it up, in the same general manner we see earlier Roman and even earlier Greek helmets and objects "ritually" broken or bent/damaged to prevent its re-use, etc.
Thank you. Very interesting. Have a look at the pinned comment, it lists the source of the wooden peg version
Yes, and also : This thing would be a constant nuisance to maintain. Soldier life (in particular at that time) consists mostly of marching, camping and drilling. I can imagine this variation of pilum constantly breaking while marching or drilling in tight lines, or even being broken in purpose (hazing ). And soldiers generally hate things that break and need constantly repairing. So, for one battle, I could believe historical sources. For general use, I doubt it was ever widely adopted. Great video by the way, great craftmanship and great throws.
@@-Anarion- And yet, they created the "Lorica Segmentata" and used it for almost 300 years. And let me tell you from personal experience how much of a pain in the ass that thing is to keep rust-free and kept together. There has been some who ponder if the armor was "designed" to keep legionaries busy with constant upkeep of the damn thing. it does seem to be designed with some element of "modular" sections that can be swapped out and fairly easily repaired in a sort of "assembly line" arrangement. But that's a whole different topic than Pila.
I see your point, but there is a significant difference between these two: the lorica keeps you alive, while the pilum with the wooden peg offers a marginal advantage in combat.
Love the video. The next time you see Michael I suggest you take a variety of woods: you don't want to find that box is too tough, though you could sand it down, I suppose.
This experiment is awesome. I like the involvement of the javelin thrower.
Jesus, man. That chap would have been quite the war machine back in those days... What a thrower!
The main issue with the breakable peg reference by Plutarch is that it isn't supported by any archaeological evidence. Of the examples of pila that have been found (and there are oodles and oodles of them), they either: - Have flanges in such a way that any kind of hinge being made by one peg being wood and breaking, could not actually happen - Are of the socketed "needle" type and thus cannot hinge - Have no flanges, but all the metal rivets are still there on the piece (two rivets or three) - Are the collared type which has a metal collar around the tang (in addition to the rivets; two or three) to prevent it from splitting the wood like a chisel or from hinging - Have a spike tang with no need for rivets, which also means no hinging There has not been a single pilum that has been found in the archaeological record currently, where there's only a single metal rivet and a hole where something else should/could go. Paul McDonnell-Staff did a very good article about it in Ancient Warfare Magazine Volume V, Issue 1. I don't want to dismiss Plutarch entirely, because it seems odd for him to mention this specific thing and there not be some grain of truth with it, but with the way they constructed pila from what has been excavated currently, the Romans seemed very keen on preventing this exact hinge thing from happening. Not to mention he wrote this biography almost 200 years after Marius died. Perhaps they experimented with the peg (hence Plutarch's mention of it), they didn't like the results they got, and then decided to add the flanges and collar to the tang in order to prevent it from happening.
I don't think that these were used very often. The pila would be more fragile during march/transport and sometimes the legionnaires needed to use them as actual spears (against cavalry etc.). Maybe they could have one of their two pila pinned sometimes or prepare it for a specific encounter when they hade time and means to do so.
would be interesting to see softer woods. they might flex in flight but then snap upon impact
What a difference a professional makes. I can't imagine how much time he saves you.
I've grown up with the idea of pilum being soft shafted and bending on impact, and it's ingrained itself into my mind so strongly that even after seeing Tod's other videos proving it was much stiffer and would penetrate shields and chainmail i never even considered it being able to punch through an actual steel helmet. It actually makes me wonder how well it would do against other types of armour - scale armour, bronze cuirasses, even medieval plate armour - even if they would be unlikely to ever really meet historically.
Arrows vs Armour 3: What is a pilum but a really big arrow?
Javelins are used in the medieval period, but yes it doesn't seem like armour was proof against them, probably due to the encumbrance and limited ammunition of the threat. They were used on horseback too, and for such a heavy javelin that extra 20 mph or whatever is devastating on the other end. I'm somewhat confused they aren't referenced much in sieges afaik as height, well many castles just dropping one would make human kebab
@@mandowarrior123 I think with the added height it might just be unnecessary when a piece of wood or stone would be just as deadly and much less effort to produce.
Todd, I can recommend making a few extra holes, so you can move the pins around, or add multiple. That way its easier to tune the system. The stronger pins should also give more penetration because the breakpoint would be higher, but at the cost of less chance of breaking off.
A stronger pin will absorb *more* energy on breaking and so deliver less to the target, resulting in *lower* penetration.
@@QuantumHistorian That is not true.
@@OrIoN1989 wow, with such a well reasoned argument based on solid physics, who could argue with that!
@@QuantumHistorian you will transfer less energy if the pins give to early. You are saying the opposite. Please give your argument why i am wrong though. If the pins do not break, it will behave like a spear
@@OrIoN1989 Yes, if they do not break, the pins absorb no energy and so it's all delivered to the target, making this the hardest hitting case. My thoughts is that the equation is: _Total kinetic energy of pilum in flight before impact = energy breaking the pin + energy used to penetrate target_ Because the initial energy is fixed, the harder the pin, the more energy is spent breaking it (assuming it breaks), therefore the less is left to penetrate the target. I guess what you're arguing is the equation is: _Total kinetic energy of pilum in flight before impact = energy breaking the pin + energy used to penetrate target + kinetic energy remaining in the shaft of the pilum after breakage_ And that the weaker the pin, the greater the last term? My instinct is that unless the pin is laughably weak, or the pilum impacted very obliquely, the last term is small compared to the others, so making the pin stronger (but still breaking) "costs" more in the 2nd term than it "saves" in the 4th. In other words, it's like the crumple zone of a car. It dissipates the most energy when it only just breaks.
I’m most impressed that he’s standing down range of that thang and doesn’t blink.
He can not only throw but also hit a target consistently! Very impressive and gives a real 'visceral' insight into how dangerous a weapon it was in its day. Was there never a time when they used pilum as thrusting weapons, when the wooden peg would have been a handicap?
The guy is alive, it went to the edges of shield and them, and the guy is throwing his shield down so that he can continue to fight. The peelem did its job.
You should probably also consider using green woods for the pins you're testing. The live wood would add some flexibility to the pin that should help keep them from sheering on launch.
Not sure if this is relevant, but here goes anyway. Now, as I see it, one of the main purposes of the pila barrage is to make it easier for the gladius action to follow. First prize is, pilum takes out man. Second prize is pilum sticks in shield and pivots when pin breaks. Now soldier HAS TO abandon his shield to be able to fight with his sword. It also creates some confusion is the ranks for the legionaries to exploit. Third prize is that when it misses and hits the ground the pin breaks and it pivots rendering it useless for a return throw.
That spear to the head shot was brutally perfect lol
I wonder if another positive of having the sheer pin is that it means that the tip is less likely to bend on impact. The pin acts as a sacrificial part that prevents damage to the more important components. After a battle, you can always collect the pilum, replace the pin, and it's ready to throw again. Whereas before, you would need to bend the tip back into shape.
Fantastic work. I remember reading about shearing pins in pila many years ago (30+). Good to see it put to a fairly scientific test. Keep up the good work.
So the Roman’s would throw them knowing they had to be clocked in the hand or they would break upon launch. The enemy might know they needed a stick but might not know they also needed to hold them a certain way throwing them back. It’s also hard to bend the head back into shape after impact if it breaks so easily. That’s really quite clever.
Love Tod's experiments - gives me a sight of the ol tymes
I can’t remember the reference but I believe I read that the shaft was made of fairly thin mild steel that just bent after the barbed end was embedded into the target . The idea was to make the shield unusable with the spear dragging in front of you.
I love how he became more at ease in front of the camera! I also wonder how much of the energy is lost (and therefore penetration power) because of this shear design.
Michael is thoroughly enjoying himself in these videos.
Another approach to the problem might be to simply rotate the shaft when you throw the pilum so the hinge slot is horizontal instead of vertical. The force of the arm going up would then work against the sides of the slot and not the wooden pin. The simplest fix is often the best.
I love how much Michael has been showing up in the videos this year. (:
That was awesome, the headshot alone was worth it. Thanks to Michael, hope to see another test.
Interesting that you could even hear a difference between the woods even with the low quality speakers I use for the "web rig". Putting aside the throwing back, isn't it easier to bring the pilum back to useable shape after the fight with this method than bend metal?
Always love your work!
Ebony is a lovely and hard wood. (for knives). But, as you said, quite expensive. A harder and dark black wood is African blackwood. And it is substantially less expensive than ebony. Especially, the 'radio' black ebony. Love your videos, have a great day. The U.S.A. specialty craft wood stores carry it. And the net should suffice if that wood is not available in England.
I like how easy it would be to recover and fix each pilum after the battle
its really good seing michael again, also him talking more than when he first showed up really helps the video.
Such a great team up! Having fun learning new stuff!
Love these vids. Great work you two
Excellent, as always. Thank you.
Thank you Tod for the great videos!
You understand why the Romans liked the pilum so much, that's a scary weapon to face.
Yes. Going through a rain of plumbata and pilum and then still having to fight with the fully armed heavy infantry makes for a really lousy day.
I think what we are talking here about the pin breaking, is that i dont think the Romans wanted every single pilum to break, so they used slightly stronger wood, I agree with todd. If only 30% broke that would be enough numbers to not be thrown back at the legion. So a good deal. There was a lot of skirmishing in ancient and medieval warfare, and good skirmishing could get you a victory or the conditions for it.
Thank you for another one :-) hope to see another video with Michael soon :-) and wishing him all the best in his sports career and in his life :-)
I love it. Thank you gentlemen!
You could make it break more on impact by making it so the normal pin has some back and forth play and the wooden pin does not and keeps the pilum point extended, so on impact the wooden pin takes all the impact damage, but in other directions the pins both carry the weight.
These pilum videos have been really cool and informative. I wouldn't want Michael throwing one at me!
Might I propose that we change the word thrower to chucker? I much prefer, "our resident spear chucker." Let's consider some of the interesting aspects of the word chuck. According to the online etymology dictionary there's a specific connection to striking a person: "to throw," 1590s, variant of chock "give a blow under the chin" (1580s), possibly from French choquer "to shock, strike against." If we explore further it holds a connection to the main part of Michael's body that permits his chucking of pilum as the etymology dictionary tells us the chuck is: Specifically of shoulder meat (from early 18c.) So Michael uses the chuck to do the chucking and if that's not enough, chuck can also mean "device for holding work in a lathe or other machine" is from 1703 (also chock)." So in a sense, Michael is the chuck in that regard too, as he's holding the work of your (or someone else's lathe). It also just sounds fun. Cheers and thank you for always putting out such interesting videos.
One thing I do wonder is how much power the pin breaking removes from the throw. The pin itself probably isn't much, but it might transfer some of the force that would have driven it forward, into the target, to the shaft which is now flopping around. Its turning a rigid projectile into a very flexible one.
You don't need the wooden pin to break itself upon impact,it just need to be able to break. If an enemy infantryman receives one of those he will try to remove it first (No matter where it lands) and THEN it will break making the pillum useless AND a bother at the same time.
It looked to me like the shaft got damaged less with the pins. So another effect could be making the pila more easily refurbished after the battle. The ideal wood would be strong but brittle. Less chance of being broken in daily use and maybe also less likely to break when thrown but more likely to break on a sharp impact. I'm wondering if it would be possible to give some play in line so the impact force does the breaking rather than relying on a lateral force.
Excellent work.
What grade of mild steel did you use in the film "Arrows vs Armour 2 - Best metal for armour?" AISI1005 or maybe AISI1010?
I haven't read all of the comments but something stands out to me - if the pin broke on launch for a few throws, then surely if it survived a throw and impact towards an enemy, then there must have been a greater chance of it breaking on launch from an untrained enemy trying to throw it back. Furthermore, if it did break at launch from an enemy towards "friendly troop's , it merely needed to have its pin replaced and it becomes usable on the offence once more! Perhaps a very small part of any battle but it would have an impactful (sorry for the pun) psychological effect.
This series of videos is just wonderful! Thank you so much.
Thanks
Another stunning video from this series. It's a pure joy to watch you guys.
Thanks
Michael is unbelievably accurate and powerful! What a talented man.
I always enjoy Tod's videos, and having Michael there to help him with his expertise is great! But we are not talking about the most important fact in this video: Tod is SELLING the trebuchet!!!!
I am!
Great fun. Keep on testing!
Your next one should use boxwood and oak pins so you can compare them on the same day so that weather conditions etc. are constant.
Once again, Tod proves you don't know, until you KNOW.
So many little details like that
We need a new video where you compare the penetration of breakable pilums with normal ones. Surely, some energy is lost when the peg breaks and the handle swings without putting that energy into the pilum's spearhead.
I think you may have stumbled upon something with the one that was thrown twice. If the objective is to keep the pilum from being effective when thrown back, you don't need to optimize for breaking on impact to the point where it breaks on first throw. Instead you should push the toughness of the pin to break on impact or second throw. Sure, it might cause a bruise and dent a shield but it won't pierce your men on the return trip.
Excellent tests as usual. Wonderfully done. That shot to the helmet was brutal. I did not expect that. From the most powerful warbows a person can shoot standing up, I would expect that kind of hole. The velocity and the weight of those big arrows are amazing. But from a hand-tossed pilum, I really did not expect it to just cut right into the helmet like that. Wild. I agree with your conclusion and I think that you'd probably opt for a sturdier pin, because ultimately if a few of the pins break, that's a few less the enemy is throwing back at you if/when they can. But if you lean more on the side of weak pins, you'll end up losing a valuable weapon and wasting time and energy and money basically disarming your soldiery of their primary weapon. Nobody wants that! Certainly the better of the two scenarios is to opt for something a little sturdier.
I would suggest, as others have been too, that you consider having two or three wood-pin types ready for test-throws. First, because I assume that having more types of pins dont incur morr work on your end, and second, because I doubt the 'validity' of the strain test. I am no engineer, but I assume that there's a big difference between stress testing wood for strain (as you did) and percussive force (as impact would do). Love these types of videos and I look forward to seeing many more!