We've never done a teardown of a Porsche Taycan... until now! After removing and analyzing the battery pack for a client project, Julian shares some of his observations.
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#porsche #ev #taycan
Another great hire at Lean Design. Thanks Julian for a great video
Glad you enjoyed it
@@MunroLive What do You do with the SeaBee aircraft??? I really like that design...
Julian is an OG for Munro Live. He has been there for a while and in a lot of other videos or supports them with these teardowns.
Good job Julian!
Thanks
As an EV hobbyist these battery teardowns are some of my favourite Munro videos. Waiting with bated breath for that zero to get torn down too ;)
also watch - the Limiting Factor , for more in Depth on Li car Batteries.
I work in EV development and I watch those videos for a living :) I include my findings in internal reports for the whole company.
I think I'm already hooked. Thanks Mark @@markplott4820
I love seeing the Republic Seebee in the background. Fascinating and revolutionary design! I would watch hours of videos on this.
We have a video about it on our Patreon Page.
"Seabee"... but yes, that's an amusing background.
Good overview but no mention of the repair and reuse mentioned in the title. It would be interesting to see Porsche's (Rimac's) connections to bus bars. Also wish we saw inside the module to see the heat path down to the cooling plate. And as always, it would be good to get a peek at how they control gas flow in a thermal event.
We didn't open any modules on this one, as we mentioned in the video.
Taycan was designed way before Porsche and Rimac had anything to do with each other. Probably even before the first Rimac prototype was built.
At least it's possible to open and take out the modules. That's a good start when it comes time to repair. No pink foam in this one :)
@@MunroLive Just saying I wish you had. Thermal transfer through the cells themselves, repair/2nd-life, and safe/recoverable failure modes are key areas that have my attention. Each has been neglected in the past, to a greater or lesser degree, by OEMs. In the long term these are make-or-break subjects for successful mass EV adoption, though not 'sexy' or highly visible when they work.
@@mrm1885 Agree, but I highly doubt that the pink foam is a long term solution. It is possible that the intent is to block any attempted repair, but that would be egregious even for Tesla. I suspect its real use was to limit access to the cells themselves by folks like Munro and those who would run electrical tests on the cells. These still contain some secrets.
Thanks for the video! Waiting for the Cadillac Lyric battery teardown 😊
Thank you. Very useful and interesting.
Great show guys
Thank you.
Fantastic video. Random question, what watch are you wearing in the video, I love flieger style watches?
THANKS!
You're welcome!
Sad to see commenters making negative comments toward Julian, whom is clearly very knowledgeable and delivers with good cadence. People literally have no idea of the value of this information, there will be manufacturers around the world literally being called into the conference room to watch this content, some poor sod had to pay for it, and instead we’ve got entitled KZheadrs complaining that the presenter said “um”. He’s doing a smashing job, the content is world class, and thank you Munro and team.
I dont see these negative comments. Ur making that up to get votes.
🤗THANKS JULIAN AND ALL THE MUNRO TEAM 🧐 FOR THE EDUCATION 💚💚💚
Was enthusiastic about seeing you work with a Fein Tool oscillator where my brother in law is the Swiss 🇨🇭inventor of the sawing blades. He was 10 years the exclusive manufacturer with ALL application ideas that Fein and later Bosch as well as 3‘000 Chinese manufacturers have just stolen without any refund to the real initial inventor. So seeing your use is a late honor to see what can be done with no other tool like that😂🤓🤔
Danke!
Thanks!
Thanks for the video. I saw on a Mercedes company video about how they were focused on the necessity for battery pack integrity in a car crash. Do you have any videos on the safety features on battery packs? Best Regards
IF , Porsche switch to 4680 cylindrical, Structural battery pack & Gigacastings , whose worry go away.
@@markplott4820 I think gigacasting is best (but very hard for ‘ol tyme manufacturers to change to). As for the Tesla Battery, yeah I just don’t know at all in comparison to Germans. But Tesla has a lot more data and experience.
My question is: does Porsche cover the components in that Integrated Power Distribution Unit under its Battery Warranty?
10:19 - you got nominal voltage wrong for this smaller 79.2 kWh (gross) pack: it is 168 cells in series times 3.67 V nominal per cell, which is *616.6* Volts, not 520 Volts. The bigger pack with 93.4 kWh (gross) has 198 cells in series times 3.67 V nominal per cell = 726.6 V at the pack level, so that roughly aligns with your statement of 720 V nominal.
What is the huge robot foot in the background at t=3m49s?
Hm, not seeing the new underride protection. Wasn't it mounted?
All good with the battery, but what about that Sea Bee? I'd love to see videos on that beast...
Yea! Republic sea bee! What a blast from the past!
Is this the same in the Audi etron GT? If yeah, put that in the title too please 😅😅😅
It should be yes. But on the GT you always get the 93.4 kWh Pack 🙂
@@kingkoolkata great! Because when they hit $49,000 I'll probably get one 😅
Good question.
Are there any separators between cells? And/or sny fire propagation addons?
They did not tear down a module, so you will not see whatever separates cells. If you were asking is there separators between modules... well, yeah, there are obviously big walls in the case.
great to see the engineering challenges involved, in this very sensitive engineered product! super breakdown Julian! good luck! Go, go Team Munro!🍿 personally, I'd like to see minimal adhesive! then again the battery is so fragile, like a little baby.... nice & crispy like a pringle! I love seeing this Electronic Engineering that's helping the industry progress so well !
My Sonos SoundBar just LOVED your intro music!! Keep it coming.
The packs for the Taycan are build by German company Dräxlmaier, which seems also to supply Porsche with the new PPE pack for the Macan, both build in Leipzig, Germany. Official SOP for the new PPE pack was in September, 2023.
We need a reliability video and a thorough review in part 2 of the Porsche taycan overall.
2:08 - Does it look like the control module fits into a traditional gear tunnel, or is that just me?
I would find it very interesting to have a side by side comparison of the differences in each part from Porsche to Tesla. Maybe an idea for a future video :)
just watch the Plaid S battery Teardown.
@@markplott4820 Is there a comparison to Porsch in it? Will check it out thanks! :)
Want to talk about the Seabee behind you. That's a strange thing to be benchmarking!
We have a video on it on our Patreon Page.
Do these modules follow a VDA standard? VDA standards cover dimensions, and presumably other characteristics. they are not used worldwide, but some battery suppliers in China and vehicle manufacturers in Germany and in China seem to use them. Sellers of used Taycan modules list the dimensions as 390 mm long by 150 mm wide by 109 mm tall (as well as a mass of about 12 kg), and the width and height match the VDA 355 standard (which is 355 mm long, not 390 mm).
i'm using these in a conversion and can confirm the 390mm length.
Thanks,@@jasonmanness7941
What is the chemistry of the Taycan battery?
To hell with the battery is that a Seabee amphibian behind you?
Yes!
"Oh look! Sandy made a video about something I've never heard about before and now I'll pretend like I'm an expert on it and like I've known about it my whole life and act curious about it!" 🐑🐑🐑
That's a rectangular extrusion profile @13:44; the height and width are not the same, so it's not square. Maybe you just meant square corners?
I think he did...
So if there isn’t some sort of battery heating/cooling magic, how can this thing charge so fast?
Afternoon guys
Hello
Who’s Seabee is that?
Don’t get what you told us @10:22 mins ago 336 cells ins 20 packs? 136p2 Layout @520 Volts? Äh the numbers don’t match do we work with 3,7 or 3,8 volts 198p2 x 3,7 = 732 Volts @ 93,4 kWh so 235 Wh per Cell?
Very interesting report - well done. But what’s a porch got to do with battery packs? It has been said that correctly pronouncing someone’s name is like fine music…
Made in Poland, LG Chem. Neat.
Clearly Porsche's first battery pack design. Dozens of modules requiring expensive bus bar interconnects, complicated mechanical pockets for each module, separate box on top for connections, etc. Hopefully their next design will be much more produceable for higher volume manufacturing. Maybe they should hire Munro to give them some pointers on Lean Design. Thanks for the review Munro!
Why would they optimize a battery pack for high volume manufacturing when it is targeted for a low volume car? Apart from that - almost all EVs used such a modular design until recently.
but, OEMS were Supposed to be working on Hybrids by 2010 , the PIVOT to Full BEV Designs. PORSCHE ant others are Decades too late and using OLD FASIONED outdated Technology. makes their cars too HEAVY , Inefficient , too SLOW. case in Point - the 2021 Tesla model S PLAID . BEST in Breed. BENCHMARK car.
The Porsche Panamera Hybrid was introduced in 2013. Porsche Taycan Turbo S was the fastest production EV on the Nürburgring one year BEFORE the Tesla Model S Plaid. So "decades behind" seems odd in this context. @@markplott4820
Probably nothing to do with porsche. VAG were are using off the shelf components. Valeo electric motors and as we can see here LG batteries. That's slowly changing now since they are getting price wrecked by competition. The same EV cars from VAG are way cheaper in China. BTW that should be illegal.
All the competition is doing exactly the same . The only company that probably doesn't have to rely on third party battery cells is BYD. @@hagestad
Is there a part number for the oscillating tool blade that was used for the teardown?
You can bend a straight one to the depth you need.
👍👍👍👍
Wasn't Sandy in the thumbnail?
No
I’ve been waiting for a teardown of a Taycan battery to confirm/deny whether or not these cars are basically “throwaways” if the battery pack goes kaput. Still not sure.
looks replaceable.
why, should Battery EVER go kaput ? TESLA in 2023 makes Battery Pack that lasts LIFE of the car. over 1.5 million miles = Lion . 3 million miles = LFP . you wont need to Replace the battery pack unless its 2016 Tesla S.
@@markplott4820 There is ton of evidence that there is no way Tesla batteries can last that long.
@@hagestad - only Early 1865 have ANY problems , cells, Modules can be Replaced/are replaced by GRUBER motors . all Current Tesla/Panasonic Li cells have 35+ years of Life and 30% more Power , thanks to Panasonic . and last 1+ million miles . CATL LFP battery can last 50+ years up to 3+ million miles in a Tesla. unlike other OEMs , Tesla has BEST in Class Thermal management & BMS.
@@hagestad - Tesla , is proving you wrong, everyday.
Porsche, where decontenting is the feature
3:54 I wonder what could be in the background? Is this be part of an airplane?
kzhead.info/sun/hZesY9Knj2ppfWw/bejne.html
Someone mentioned its a Republic Seebee aircraft once you know what the configuration is its fairly easy to understand what you are seeing. There was even a landing wheel by the table attached to the craft.
"Seabee" (not "Seebee"),@@NotNowLater... but yes, it's distinctive. I'm far from an expert in old aircraft, but I immediately recognized it.
Yes, it's the entire fuselage (everything except wings, engine, and tail fins) of Republic Seabee.
Still no MG EV’s?? Do they not sell them in the US? Best seller here in the UK, amazing car..
Second that. An MG4 strip down would be epic!
USA has a 25% import tarif from Chinese cars. And EU has 10% import tarif. China has import tarif between 15 to 25%. The EU is one of the most open market regarding impor tarifs. But this will soon change. The MG will then become more expensive.
MUNRO - if VW group continue to use Li Pouch cells in vehicles , I see more Battery fires in their Future.
Thanks, repairability and reusability are the most important points on EV's...
more Important = NO repairs in First place. and FULLY Recyclable. (TESLA) . 2023 battery pack are ZERO Maintenance, no Repair required, FULLY Recyclable at end of LIFE (30+ years).
@@markplott4820 sure sure, we'll see how it goes...
@@markplott4820 No repairs in first place: no comment. The pack is a solid block with glue between every single cell making the pack almost impossible to work on or maintain (truly zero maintenance) and recycling is done by shredding the battery to thousands of pieces and chemically extracting or melting the battery to separate the materials. Laws are being made to promote recycling, because it apparently is barely worth it economically and the process extracts a mix of metals and not the pure form, so a battery can only be recycled a fixed amount of times before the metals gets so contaminated that it can no longer be used for batteries. Life 30+ years: Except if used as a cap driver, then it is only 5 years of life and no warranty for you.
@@larsjrgensen5975 - TESLA last year recycled batteries from LEGACY Tesla (S/X) w/ new battery under Warranty. the NEW packs are more Reliable and LONGER lasting. all 2020 battery packs (1865/2170) are made MORE reliable , LONGER lasting w/25% more Energy . ALL Tesla packs will last more than 30+ years w/o Maintenance , LFP packs are 50+ years.
The missing cell is the Porsche zero option, you get to pay more for this.
Yes! Porsche was First to master the “fewer standard features costs more”🙄😎
It's a missing module, not missing cell. This module alone contributed to a weight savings of 13.5 kg (about 30 pounds) of the car weight, means better acceleration and better weight balance.
Of course it costs more. It adds lightness. 😅
it's one of the ways to offset the driver weight
Or it will just allow them flexibility of using different capacity modules without changing the pack design and do better weight balance.
Wow, Taycan also had the optimal foot garage even on big packs?? And, they could easily have fitted 7 or even 10 more modules if they'd called it a 2+2 with shallower foot garage in the back.
but the Penthouse , encloses MORE Modules & Cells , and take up Space in the TRUNK. I thought PORSCHE was a Premium Vehicle......lol.
The Taycan invented this.
@@markplott4820Porsche users don't carry furniture in their cars, they pay a company to do that. Their users want to sit low in the car, which cannot be accomplished if you have a battery everywhere under you.
@@FlorinArjocu - yet the Tesla PLAID w/ Track pack can out corner and DRIFT better than the Porsche. the Model Y performance w/ Lifts & off road tires , outperforms the Porsche rally car.
@@markplott4820 Sure, but I would take the Porsche any day, I could not care less about the .1 seconds faster times for 0..60.
Glad to see they build the battery pack in Europe not China.
I assume the title is referring to repairability and reusability of the pack but he doesn't really speak to that at all in the content of the video.
Came here to say this.
Will we be seeing a full tear down of the car?
Nope, this was for a client, we only did a teardown on the battery pack.
do you have $3million lying around ? IF, you do then Pay MUNRO .
empty module space nice contraband space ?
Better late than never
There is talking and there is communicating. With the benefit of hindsight it is easy to see why Munro Associates lost someone to Lucid earlier this year. Clear communication is a skill which takes a lot of practice just like playing golf to a high standard or American Football. I suspect in the past Munro did not re-shoot many videos except when Sandy got it too wrong. But if you are going to keep your huge following, I think as a team you are going to have to work harder on your commentary. Once I used to watch every single video because the description of what you were doing was excellent. These days I am dipping in and rarely make it to the end. I have not anything to do with the motor trade. I just own an old Mercedes E class which does 4000 miles per year. But I was captivated by the original videos. I am sure Munro tells your clients how it is, and will accept this feedback in the spirit it is intended.
Our videos are never scripted and we don't do re-shoots.
You are precise Charls, my opinion as well. I still appreciate Sandy , mistakes an all . Their title Live surely means little or no editing. Get er done !
Overall I'm impressed with the presentations from all the engineers, especially Jordan. Don't forget we are paying little to nothing for this very interesting knowledge.
😮
Seems to be a lt better made than others (Tesla etc) but alas I could not afford one.
I feel some of these technical overviews lose the forest for the trees. There is way too much discussion of fine level details, not enough overview about advantages and disadvantages of the design, gravimetric and volumetric energy density of this pack compared to somebody else's, cell chemistries, etcetera. As other people have mentioned, it would be good to get a comparison of this design contrasted with a design of the pack from a Model S, for example.
We do offer reports with A LOT more information. Emails sales@leandesign.com if you’re interested.
Bro. No wireless oscillator... tsk tsk tsk. Get it done.
Too bad you don't talk about suggested processes for removing the in trunk bolts required for release of the pack. Or will they never sieze or fail, because you don't have to access they regularly... hopefully.
Like the CeeBee in the background. Sandy personal transport? 🇨🇦
I’m telling you the first company to come up with a modular, exchangeable battery will corner the market.
It was named better place and no longer exists, because it was not profitable.
Guys, please import from EU some EV's, not everyone drives pricy cars. I would LOVE to see some PSA battery design layout from 2020 'till now.
15 years old design... maybe time for a modern and safer pack and cells architecture ?
Dudes ! Don’t tease us with backdrop amphibian seaplane (Seabee ?) and say nothing !
This guy could be about 4 times more succinct in his speech. Just way too many words for the content he's delivering. He also likes giving the camera the finger as he points at stuff.
The new macan EV and ID.7 supposedly share a platform, but the battery packs from specs appear to be different. That might be an interesting double teardown for you guys.
ID 7 is MEB , Macan is PPE.
What does MEB and PPE stand for or mean?@@cpeegberts2030
Allegedly, NOPE .
Great but just pause instead of “aah”
Porsche still got those crap o ring push connectors on the internal coolant lines, better hope the rings dont flat spot like they do in the ICE ones after a few years. Doubt they are specified in a high spec elastomer. Munro could stand further back branching more into the total life cycle cost analysis like the oil and nuclear industry are now paying for not doing in the past. This design for manufacturing and value engineering is all well and good but then they cant be cheaply repaired or scrapped (already the case with EV,s right now), been there done that. Design is the point to build in life cycle cost and decommissioning. . Estimated to be costing the oil giants 1$/bbl and a job for life.
Not as easily accessible for repair as the Hyundai pack.
IF, you build it Correctly , shouldn't the pack be Maintenance FREE, and ZERO repairs needed ?
@@markplott4820 Ideally so. However, having spent a lifetime with these sorts of things, there are nothing which I would truly describe as maintenance free. Also damage to the pack is a consideration. As the longest existing true modern electric car company Tesla has had a small percentage of maintenance problems with their battery packs, so access for repairs, rather than full replacement is the best way to go for me as a customer.
Porsche Taycan electric cars recalled due to battery fire risk The Electric Viking
Ok.
Yeah that Viking dude doesn’t seem to like LG Chem batteries at all.
mileage SUCKS on a taycan. thats 1 area they seriously gotta improve on
De-contenting... that sounds like a word a bean counter would come up with
That and “mis-spoke”.
So, I guess you will pay a lot for some VW tech that is very average for a "premium" brand.
First!
🏆
Its called a hex driver. Not an allen key. It's not even a wrench. Drivers go in sockets Wrenches go over shapes
Boomtendo, these guys aren't mechanics, but I give them due credit for what they do.
Lots of interesting details here, but... Where's the TURBO? You know, as bragged about in the 2 inch high "Turbo" lettering on the rear? Where is it?
Loose the intro sounds like a soap commercial. Don’t need it for the cognoscenti on here 🤐
Hmm... "repair and reuse." According to street knowledge, "there are no moving parts in EVs, nothing to repair!!1" 😊
cheap seals LEAK , become Less waterproof overtime , we have seen this in the Hummer EV, & all Ultium platform Vehicles. and some other American OEMs too.
Uhm.. um.. uh.. 😫🙈
So tesla isn't the only one with basically unservicable sealed ev pack's. Looks like the byd atto 3 teardown&nio et7 pack teardowns!👍🏻😀
Tesla plans on feeding failed packs back into their recycling. You'll get a core offset against the replacement. The "non-serviceable" pack comes from making packs that last at least 300k miles. Servicing isn't needed if replacement is cheap enough. The cost of "servicing" one of these packs is $5-7k and is not getting cheaper because it is human labor intensive. Even in cases where they will service the pack, you'll likely have to pay to ship it to a centralized refurbishment center, the local dealer won't be able to do it well enough to be trusted. Tack on another 3 grand in round trip shipping. It will not be long until a new replacement pack from tesla is the same price as a single module replacement for other manufacturers. Module replacement is silly because another cell can fail the day after you spend $8-9k and they give you no warrant on the other cells. A replacement gives you a warranty on the new pack, it is like a brand new car. Module replacement is what someone will do at home, not pay a shop to do. So a handful of youtubers and that is about it. Most people don't have the time, skills, and equipment to do this.
except BYD not a Reliable BRAND and its Battery's scuk ASS .
@@markplott4820please share what you know about BYD cars, their reliability and why the battery is bad.
@@MarkSmith-lu7ly - BYD is UNSAFE , Lacks AUTOMATIC safety Systems . VERY Cheaply built car, NOT as Highly RATED as Tesla CNAP & euro NCAP . BYD lacks a Sophisticated computer w/ Autopilot & FSD which is 10x safer than a Human driver. UNRELIABLE rating in the UK & EU , according to LATEST testing. battery is GARBAGE compared to Tesla 4680 & 2170.
@@MarkSmith-lu7ly - 2023 Tesla model Y is OUTSELLING Chyna models that are 7x Cheaper than TESLA including BYD.
Julian, dude, take a breath. You've got 176 "um's" in a 17-minute video. Otherwise, well done. Cheers
So what is it about the Porsche battery that makes it an absolute monster in terms of thermal management? It’s the only EV on the market that can do 140 mph autobahn cruising followed by DC fast charging with a huge flat curve with no issues.
Maybe it has a stronger cooling system?
The very high voltage operation will certainly help with i2.R losses.
Porsche haven’t yet learnt why this is a problem. Once they start selling more than a few thousand units and get some serious feedback they’ll learn, just like Tesla did.
@@userscott Why what is a problem? Car performing the same in all conditions and not going into thermal panic like Rivian?
Better to leave the module out than install it, turn it off for lower trim levels, forcing the owner pay to chauffeur the thing around for the vehicle’s lifetime.The module will power another vehicle for every ~30 vehicles made.
No EV can "turn off" a battery module depending on trim level. Battery capacity changes made in software change the upper and lower limits of the state of charge - they don't disconnect part of the battery.
Better to design a battery thats reliable, if your design makes it repairable, it adds weight, complexity, cost and unreliability.
Correct
Porsche is truly many, many years behind Tesla.
Horrible design.
It does look clumsy and unrefined compared to Hyundai/Kia designs.
Shiocking how unrepairable most of the EV's are. Even Tesla makes it super hard to replace a failing cell. EV's could last many decades if you could replace a failing cell like you do in a flashlight. It is super unecological to not have repairability.
Its all about cost saving, screw connections are much more expensive and there is no Business Case for spare parts..new Cars has to be sold instead of maintance of already excisting vehicles
Unfortunately it isn’t that easy to just replace cells or even modules. Batteries age therefore you can’t just put a new cell into a system with aged cells.
The BYD blade system is field replaceable i believe. The unrepairability of 99% of EV's is absurdly bad. That is why i like the Edison Motors approach, which is easily repairable. They have the correct attitude, and the rest of the EV companies don't care, which is super un-ecological IMHO.@@davidglieder8862
One good thing about this battery pack is that unlike Tesla's 4680 piece of unrepairable garbage.... It can be opened up for service.
BIASED much?
@@billjackofall It is a fact. The 4680 is without question, unrepairable. All you have to do is look at earlier videos on this channel. It can't even be opened without destroying it.
4680 is Maintenance FREE , and ZERO repairs.
@@markplott4820 Till something fails, then you're screwed! This idea that nothing will ever fail is Musk propaganda. Don't believe it.
@@markplott4820 Yes because it is impossible, not because they never fail.
Repairability of Tesla batteries is HORRIBLE. Please comment on the *huge cost of repairs* when a cell goes wrong inside a pack... Tesla only sells a $21K battery as a solution to any even small battery issue, and this effect is horrific to a customer (especially a original owner who supported Tesla from the beginning).
Watch The Electric Viking
FALSE , Tesla Legacy vehicles are Repaired by GRUBER motors . Current 2017 battery packs are Maintenance FREE, ZERO repairs , lasts LIFE of the car. Tesla is UNMATCHED.
No, I want Sandy to comment on the Tesla battery design, and how a no-maintenance car in first four years becomes a brick at year six or seven when almost any battery-located part fails... contactors, battery contacts, wires, etc. or maybe one battery goes out... bang, here's a $20,000 bill. Enjoy!
@@babylonfive - FALSE on all accounts . Current 2017 Tesla cells will last 35+ YEARS and over 1+ million miles . LFP in Tesla will last 3+ million miles and 50+ years.
@@markplott4820 LOL, that was my viewpoint before too.. you are quoting battery chemistry, not *how the battery actually acts* for normal users. Youll see if you buy and hold a car (like I and others have) beyond the warranty period and have even one small issue with one of the 7000+ batteries, subsystems, contactors, etc. So, not false on any account, just misunderstood by you.