Madsen Saetter: Denmark's Remarkable Unsuccessful GPMG
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The Maden-Saetter was the Madsen (DISA) company’s entry into the GPMG arena. It Wass developed by Eric Larsen-Saetter in the early 1950s, although it did not enter production until 1960. The design was heavily German-influenced, with an MG34-like receiver, MG42-like recoil mechanism and feed system, and G43-like locking system. Unfortunately for DISA, it was a bit too complicated and had to compete against some truly excellent GPMG alternative at the time; the FN MAG and MG42/59 (aka MG3). A total of just 11,500 were produced, and the only significant military contract was to the Indonesian Army.
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I wonder if Ian ever sat in a museum with a disassembled gun and couldn't figure out how to put something back together, with a nervous smile and growing unease every time staff passed him by.
Thats were you put that camera in good use, record while disassemble it and watch your recorded video if you forget some
He said in a Q&A that it has happened a few times, but if he's ever unsure he asks one of the staff to go through it with him before filming.
One of those insane bolt action to semi auto conversion guns frustrated and confused both him and several staff who were also experts.
the museums have their own experts
Why do you think Ian always shows the gun dissasemble, but almost never shows reassemble?
I remember seeing one of these in East Timor in 1999. The Indonesian military was very rifle heavy but machine gun light. This gun, an FN Minimi and an old RPD were the only machine guns I saw. Out of literally thousands of Indonesians!
Wow i dont know our army used this MG.
Wow cool
not only those three but also M60 (in use with cavalry unit) and FN MAG at those time, hell even Brimob (Police paramilitary unit) still use M1919A6 and Bren Mk II in the late 90s-early 2000s
no offense man, but you sure the guys you saw weren't "Indonesian backed militias"?
From what Bob Howard (John Howard's brother) told me when he was teaching me at uni, it was a bit of both, but the Australian Govt. were keen to emphasise the militias narrative over Indonesian forces to avoid further escalating tensions with Jakarta. But then if the OP was part of INTERFET, I'd probably take his word over some shit I heard in a Sydney lecture theatre 9 years after the fact.
That is the coat of arms of the Indonesian Army, complete with the Kartika Eka Paksi (lonestar bird) banner. It’s very interesting because it is not strictly identical with the current logo. As you know, Indonesia went through a major upheaval in the 60’s, where hundreds of thousands (maybe even millions) of people died. It could represent the design used by the previous regime.
When name's Madsen, you know it's going to be: 1) Very cool. 2) Unsuccessful There's the one light machine gun that was very ahead of its time, and then decades later what seems like an explicit effort to proactively make content for Ian.
3) and rather well built.
Hey! We are a pretty small country! (Hrmph) ;-)
The Madsen LMG was very successful. The argentine army used it in 7,65mm, I have a pair of 30-round magazines, they are primitive and weird and are painted green.
@@me.ne.frego. What is is a non-primitive magazine? Dear departed frogeater :-P
ROFL
Once upon a time another gentleman named "Mr. McCollum" disassembled a rifle and explained all of it's workings to his young son Ian. He never dreamed that later in life; his son would go on to share the history and inner workings of hundreds of firearms and other weapons with millions of people. Pretty cool the way it worked out; my thanks to BOTH Mr. McCollums!
Some of the cooler episodes are the ones where Ian brings his dad on.
@@justindunlap1235 can you give me the link or just tittle of the video please?
@@bronxkal9275 kzhead.info/sun/qcl9pa99qamXZ4E/bejne.html I'm pretty sure this is what I was thinking of, but i think there are other instances of him being on the channel.
Hey, you dropped the D in Madsen! As a Dane it makes me happy to see people who make an effort to pronounce our weird language correctly, thank you.
A gentleman from Glasgow used to say "Pa'erson", with two "T's".
Why the d is dropped? Does it apply in all danish words?
@@ninaakari5181 in this case it's because it's a surname with its root in the name Mads, pronounced like Mass. Our D's are pronounced if they're the first letter in a word. If they're in the middle or end of a word they're either soft or non existent, but our rules are weird and wildly inconsistent.
@@DragonBornish very interesting, thank you! I always wonderder "why are these news reporters pronounsing that submarine killer's surname wrongly" when it was on the news a few years back 😅. Now I understant
Thanks for this. As a dane its allways Nice to see Danish arms represented.
The Danes are like the Swiss, a triumph of quality manufacture over design. Geoff Who admires the skills.
I agree, as a Dane I am always happy when our firearms history gets covered. It's a shame Madsen couldn't find lasting success, but I suppose it was also to be expected in an industry that became dominated by much larger players. I wonder if Madsen could have been more successful if they had tried to work together with some of the larger companies. Their approach to design and manufacturing would have been relatively compatible with other larger manufacturers in the region, especially the germanic companies.
@@CheeseDanish85 Imagine if Madsen had bought the AR-180 design and produced it with quality unknown in the UK and without the restrictions on export the Japanese had at the time. Geoff Who would have bought a semi-auto version if offered.
Man, this thing is seemingly well thought out, but seems rather complex in terms of overall part count.
I could just imagine grunts in the field trying to keep track of all of those parts.
I don’t think it’s a part count issue so much as that all those parts can be removed from one another.
"seemingly well thought out, but seems rather complex in terms of overall part count." Ahh, the very definition of Madsen ; )
I would say all those parts are quite simply shaped and also seems like military on budget could run those MGs for centuries.
@@nikitajukov4915 I saw another comment saying that he saw these still in service in Southeast asia in the mid 90s, so that's a reasonable claim.
The SIG gun, or Neuhausen as it was called in Denmark, was adopted in the traditional heavy MG role and used on a tripod at a ll time. It served alongside a whole host of different LMGs including new and old Madsens, Swedish BARs and Bren Guns. It and all the LMGs were replaced by the MG 42/59 in1962.
? The Neuhausen is a 9mm pistol..
@@heinedenmark Same factory, different gun. The pistol was the M/49
@@chrthiel I know M/49 Neuhausen very. Used one in Afghanistan. It's not from Denmark and got nothing to do with Madsen.
@@heinedenmark So? I'm talking about the SIG gun Ian mentioned in the video which was also called the Neuhausen
@@chrthiel That's weird
Had this come out in '52 instead of '60 I believe we would have many more examples. Looks like they waited too long.
Yeah, I was just thinking "if they'd gotten this out 5 years earlier...."
Afaik cmiiw the Madsen-Saetter is still in service by the Indonesian Army sometimes known as *SMR* Madsen Saetter which stands for *Senapan Mesin Ringan* or *Light Machine Gun.* Interestingly the FN MAG also entered service and licensed by PT Pindad as the SM2 (formerly known as SPM2)
They also made a bigger 50 cal version. I don’t know if anyone bought them, so might be very hard to find
I have seen an example at the Aalborg Defence- and Garrison Museum - In an experimental naval twin-mount, no less.
Other than the Madsen LMG, the only legacy Danish arms seem to have is to make this channel live up to its name.
The Madsen-Rasmussen seems to be the earliest known, working example of a self-loading rifle, so it's not a total loss in the legacy department
Also, the smgs were a mainstay of 1960's tv, from Mission: Impossible to Star Trek.
Always love to see a video about a gun that I know nothing about
With this gun, the entrance exam for machinegunner school consisted of a jigsaw puzzle proficiency test.
Great video! I would really like to see the Madsen 20 mm cannon. In Denmark we had them on a side carriage on Nimbus motorcycles. It was a surprisingly capable system.
That sounds very cool
The Dutch used them as well. The motorcycle sidecar-autocannon is quite possibly the coolest light afv of the WW2 era.
Hurts my heart seeing that flash hider all green with oxidized copper. Screaming "clean me"
Thanks for the video! I've been waiting for a video about this very rare post-WW2 GPMG for a long time.
The Indonesian army territorial unit/command near my city still has this gun, it looks like it's already converted to 7,62 nato. There's also some gun still chambered in 30.06. This gun is used by the territorial command while the army combat element/unit used the FN MAG.
Nambu & 1919 acid trip fever dream sitting on a table
those crafty danes :) the large tri-port adjustable gas system appears to look rugged and very easy to clean out, 12:00 the trigger group housing appears to be properly heat treated like a color case hardening, of which if so is a sign of high quality and engineering that many other manufacturers may not have gone to the extreme of doing on a part that does not wear out through repeated action, this MG seems to be well thought out, and easy to maintain, price of manufacture may have worked against it's popularity as well? thanks ian, i enjoyed the video
I like that the pistol grip looks like a straight up block of wood.
Did you see all the other shit going on? With the amount of bits and doodads going on, buy a belt sander and fix the grip yourself lmao
Looks like ak grip
So its a flapper/linear-hammer locked action, its a very clever out-of-battery safety 😯
Yes, it solved the problem of bounce-back that the MG34/42 never got right.
That's possibly the most clever part of the gun. That, and the long but extremely durable looking upper reciever cam track arm, that ultra reliably transfers longitudinal motion into lateral motion to actuate the feed pawls. More parts? Maybe... Each one incredibly basic and robust? Definitely. Just look at the fire control group. It's like a lesson in design simplicity. The triangle flats on the gas regulator are an elegant solution. The whole gun screams functionality above all else. What more do you want in a GPMG? Seems like a better lockup than the MAG/240 and MG3 honestly. Perhaps a modernized version is in order. Interesting design...
I love watching the engineering aspects to these firearms, the ingenuity is always fascinating.
Wow Ian, some assembly required. I really enjoy watching your videos, I can't wait till you show us how you reassemble it.
Putting the forgotten in forgotten weapons today. Loved it, can’t wait for more.
Vintage forgotten weapons, great video thank you! Mind blown when I saw the actuator for the feed mechanism that's a new one haha.
Wow! That's a lot of bits and pieces. Found myself zoning out and began to worry that my interest was waning but then I was saved by Ian stating how complex this thing is. And I'm back to anticipating tomorrow's video!
Oh man i remember thinking this thing was cool as hell, assuming it was a super late WWII gun i'd somehow never heard of. It's just one of those not-quite-WWII-not-quite-vietnam guns, it doesnt look like it fits anywhere in time. Danish gun design is a weird beast
It looks like a 1930s Italian design that has been debugged.
I like that gas regulator design; smart...
i'm intrigued, could you elaborate?
You post every time I'm busy shooting before work. I'm not complaining
Denmark did adobt the SIG as M/51 but only in limited numbers. Is was mostly used as an SMG on tripod and/or on pintle mounts on vehichles. The primary replacement for the M/24 & M/48 Madsen (DISA) LMGs was the MG3 - known to us as the LMG M/62. The latter replaced all the other types in the sixties - and is still used by our army in vehicles etc.
I just love the amount of time it takes Ian to explain what a Madsen gun does in one moment, compared with how quickly he can explain the operation of other guns...
As a Dane, again Ian thought me about a danish gun i didn't know existed! Thank you Ian, or should I say I praise the gun Jesus.
Ian getting excited over the gun being flapper locked made my day! 😅
Hello from Denmark! Love your videos, very well explained and detailed! Btw the name Saetter is actually pronounced like the word "letter" because "ae" is used instead of the letter "æ". Not meant as to correct you, but as knowledge! "Madsen" is also pronounced "massen" but you already know that because I remember you have mentioned it in videos before.. Danish is a tough language, even Danish people don't always speak it properly 😆
Thanks again Ian!
What strikes me is how the bolt, carrier and receiver are generally round in shape, easy to make in a lathe and mill. Makes me wonder how much of the design was dictated by the machinery the company had available.
I believe about 100%. Cast steel production is a whole different animal to tame.
Maybe it's not a case of the inability to manufacture complex parts as much as it was an intentional leaning into the robustness inherent in very basic shapes like circles, triangles, and wedges. More of a focus on reliability and functionality... Trigger group Cam track arm Gas regulator Bolt carrier Locking wedges Longitudinal striker (that physically cannot detonate out of battery) Very basic shapes, simple machines really, arranged for maximum mechanical advantage, and flawless reliability... Heck, even the sling attachments are designed to radius an angle logically. I don't think it's unrefined or rudimentary at all. Actually seems like a number of very elegant design solutions on many levels, just engineered for mass production. They certainly had some good ideas that are very much still viable today.
While it might be the least interesting part of this magnificent gun, I think it's cool that Ian gets to show the modular trigger off because he doesn't usually have a reason to do so haha
According to a small book on El Salvador's armored vehicles, there were pictures of this gun used in various vehicles and it was noted as fairly common in ES service, although numbers are not stated. An associated BMG .50 version was designed and trialed. These guns are in the 1969 editioniof Small Arms of the World. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madsen-Saetter_machine_gun#Service_history
Love it when Ian stresses "interesting" as a feature?
One can absolutely hear the quotes...😁
As a Dane I thank you for showing this weapon. Always interesting to see forgotten stuff from ones country.
Holy, so many parts, wouldn't want to take this apart in any field
We still need to see the 20 mm madsen machinegun👍🙃
Madsen is a unappreciated company. The nato type aks they made looked awesome. Also the Madsen from ww1 seemed advanced and way more compact.
By Odin, I appreciate my northern neighbor and especially the beer. Greetings from Aventoft
Never heard of this MG before. Very cool.
Thanks Ian. .
Madsen Saetter still indeed used by the Indonesian Army Paratroopers, last year Garuda Shields with US Army was an example 😂
Where can i see it?
Hi Ian, love you content as always, just wanted to point out the name on the thumbnail is "Masden" instead of "Madsen". Just wanted to point it out in case you want to correct it.
Danish Madsen/Dansk Rekylriffel Syndikat: Look we made this amazing LMG. Danish army: Yes, MG3 it is then.
A fascinating collection must have been dispersed for this auction.
This Thing is about the perfect Storm of these Techs all coming together! Perfectly Elegant in it's simplicity. What is it's NEXT Ancestor? I bet it is KOOLweL too! The EASE and Grace these weapons are handled, disassembled, and reassembled, along with the Total Mastery of knowledge is NOT Lost on ME! Thank You Sir! May I have Another? Sorry I missed your "Thumbs Up" I got it!
the bolt slightly reminds me of a kjellman's style of flapper locking
Great to see something from my home.
Now that we get a good close up look of it, it makes one somewhat suspect that atleast a little of the general layout and aesthetics seems to have loosely influenced the PK.
reminds me to the G3 rolerdelayed mekanism on auto in many ways.
Always love a bit of my countrys gun history
Fun fact, the old DISA factory, if I remember this correctly, was converted to making shopping carts! and later the factory was torn down and on the lot is now a shopping center
I noticed some light crumbs on the table. Emagine Ian finishing his sandwich right before the filming, then epically dusts his hands off and saying "Alright, back to work"
he said in other video the best way to clean gold damascened guns was using oil and bread crumbs
Wouldn't mind owning this GPMG its different for sure
Kind of reminds me of fn mag.58, for quick change Barrel belt-fed and also open-bolt design. Except how it works😄😁 love from India 🇮🇳 ❤
An interesting combination of mechanisms.. sights split between receiver and barrel could limit accuracy, especially suppressive fire at beyond 600 metres or so.
Yeah but u want the front sight to be on the barrel and fully adjustable so you can keep zero when changing between barrels
@@user-njyzcip ideal would be to have both sights on the barrel... But that makes it very awkward.
Oh boy I love finned barrels and cone flash hiders..
The way Ian correctly pronounces Madsen makes me realize that Mads Mikkelsen is probably actually Mas Mikkelsen…
Couldn't figure out why this gun wasn't popular until you showed us the locking system.
Cool gun. Too bad it was too complicated to be adopted in any significant numbers. Of course, if it wasn’t complicated it wouldn’t be a Madsen.
Just letting u know the title pic of this vid got Madsen spelled as Masden. But this vid is perfect as always.
Folding sights. Eat your heart out Magpul!
Looks more solid and well designed than the M-60 I learned in 1972, in the US Army. Geoff Who has considerable experience.
Didn't the Danes adopt the m60e6, irony
@@Truthbomb918 I think the US Army never accepted the idea, the M-60 was an expendable item. Once the receiver was loose, it should have been discarded and replaced. Instead the US Army expected the gun to last like a Browning, which is assembled from forged and machine steel plates and is heavy as heck.
@@geofftimm2291 u do need strength in a gpmg, and that means weight. Fn got it right with the mag
@@Truthbomb918 it is a delicate balancing act, need it light enough to be lugged around all day but strong enough to handle sustained fire
@@Truthbomb918 MAG is way too heavy to carry as a dismounted infantry MG. The M60 is a much better weight to patrol with. And today you can get the Knight's AMG for half the weight of the MAG.
some people do unboxing videos, i think ian should gun cleaning videos. stream it live maybe, with a casual q&a at the same time.
Have you ever thought about asking Ian McKellen to do a voice-recording of your intro? "I'm Ian McKellen and this is a stainless steel MAC-10..."
"... In really good condition" Yeah maybe for its rarity. But i'd say that is looking to be in quite a horrible state by most standards. All that green crust and dirty insides means it has been neglected. I would never leave it in that state, even less so if i sent it to an auction!
Yes, pretty sad.
Redundantly intricate.
Truly a unique General Purpose Machine Gun
The parts just kept coming out of that thing 😂
As far as i know Denmark adopted The MG3 machinnegun calling it the M/62. And that was supplied by Rheinmetal. SIG did supply the Danish army with its sidearm the M/49 Neuhausen pistol (SIG P210). So you Got them confused or am I wrong?
Yeah. Never heard about a Neuhausen MG. Been in the army 8 years and have used the pistol on deployments.
The danish military used a bunch of different mgs before adopting Tyskersaven in 62.
@@heinedenmark SIG "Maschinengewehr Neuhausen M50" Indført i 1951, Udleveret til bla Gardehusarregimentet, som brugte dem i både feltaffutage og på køretøjer.
@@MagnusPedersen Okay. Tak for det.
The Danes sure took a lot of rejection in good sprits, given all the cold war era firearms they tried to sell but met little success with
Yeah WW2 surplus and Marshall help really killed of that company. Sadly
This ain't no bicycle 🚲😁(pedal != peddle)
@@spyczech Yeah I think it was the M47. Adopted by I think the Columbian Navy or something to that effect
@@spyczech Yes, the Madsen M47. The idea was to sell it to militaries that could not afford to kit their main infantry with semi-automatic rifles, but self-loading rifles ended up rapidly proliferating (as well as the unexpected amount of military surplus that was low-cost) and ultimately it only got one contract by Colombia for a few thousand rifles in .30-06 springfield. They ended up only being issued for ceremonial use, and eventually got sold and exported to the US on the consumer market.
I knew its an Indonesian one because they still use it up until 2004 aceh war
Did I miss the mentioning of the number of rounds pr. minute? I from Denmark and one of the strong features of the German machine guns was their high numbers of rounds pr. minute, so just thought if that had been a concern when designing this.
Hey Ian, I’d love to hear your thoughts on SIG winning the NGSW contract, and the army ordering 20,000 for field trials, and the round they’re chambered in, 6.8x51mm, steel based and brass casing, 80,000psi. Think it’s got any merit as a new adopted system? And how would we do that with Nato? Wouldn’t they need to adopt it then, just like with 7.62 nato?
Seems very simple but too many bits that can be lost on a field strip
Awesome!
Wow. Lots of parts. I respect that, though perhaps it's not very practical in military use.
The nut on the gas regulator block looks like a cone from a bicycle cup and cone hub bearing.
The bolt and firing pin set up looks like a bigger version of a Remington 550 .22 rifle
Thank you for educating us danes on our own gun history
Maybe this is the machine gun that inspired LEGO... When we consider that it probably has as many peculiar pieces as the latest Star Wars Death star, I no longer wonder why it lost out to the MAG and MG3 However perhaps Larsen-Sætter did talk to Kirk Kristiansen
That flash hider needs a cleaning.
Hearing people trying to pronounce Danish, makes me realize how weird our language actually is.
I just like the way you pronounce it, almost danish. You never, and I repeat never, say the "D" in danish lastnames such as Madsen, Andersen.
So, the locking flaps double as an out-of-battery safety? Since if they cant lock into place (i.e out of battery), the firing pin can't be struck...
@@timewave02012 this, however, is an LMG, not an SMG, and a hugh pressure rifle round...
That recoil spring seams more HK G3 than MG42. The 42 has a coil spring with no guide rod and it's not connected to the buffer in the butt. This looks like over size Cetme or G3
Absolutely I agree. I think he probably meant to say the way the buttstock rotates into the receiver with those locking lugs similar to the MG42
Cool weapon for sure .
6:23 **45 degrees. 4 lugs like that would have rotational symmetry at 90, 180, 270, & 360 degrees.
It looks like a hybrid of the ZB26 and the MG34 and 42.
@forgottenweapons Your thumbnail screenshot is misspelled. It is not Masden.
Thank you.
If this thing came out 5 years earlier, somebody big would’ve adopted it.
It’s interesting that most of the West decided to accept as baseline the German push-through belt design post war. The USA and Britain had used pull type belts up through WW2 with great success. The German belt seems intellectually simpler but also requires a much longer receiver. Compare the an MG42 to a M1919, the belt on the Browning enters in line with the chamber while the belt on the MG42 enters behind the chamber. In practice this makes the receiver 2-3 case lengths longer on push through designs. Push type belts make for longer receivers, and when the receiver is integral to the lock up like on this gun or the FN MAG that makes a long/heavy receiver. The M60 and MG42 avoid this by locking to the barrel extension directly. It’s strange to me that this wasn’t recognized by other designers. The Danes here seem to have gone out of their way to just cludge together German designs, like a bizaro M60.
I suppose that LMGs are simply accepted as heavier weapons that require some setup and are never expected to be effective while moving. If so, then the receiver length becomes less important than other factors such as reliability, etc. Maybe the German designs were superior in these other areas?
Fewer parts with a push-through belt. You don't need a couple pieces of spring steel to latch onto the cartridge rim and pull that out of the belt, then drop down and push forward.