Ukraine: The Problem with Mine-Clearing Tanks
In this video we look at the various problems with dealing with mines in combat situations. Particularly we look at anti-mine flail, plow, roller and other equipment like explosive lines charges. Additionally, we look at air/artillery deploy-able mines.
Cover Image: Armored mine-clearing vehicle BMR-3M, by Vitaly V. Kuzmin
www.vitalykuzmin.net/Military...
Cover Design by vonKickass
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00:00 Intro
00:28 The Problem with Flail Tanks: Keiler
04:42 Ranked Mine Clearing Equipment
09:19 Books & T-Shirts
09:38 Mine Plow on the T-72 (KMT-8)
11:40 Instant Minefields
14: 26 Summary
#mines #mineclearing #eod
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I'm a industrial designer and I have a design for a cheap, fast, survivable and very efficient mine clearing system. are you interested? PS: seeing your video fully I realized my design covers all the problems you mentioned. it also could be build within 1-3 months period so it could be used in this war.
@@kasraeskandari9351 You might want to look at the rafael carpet or read the dtic document - FAE bombing for minefield breeching.
I bet Adolf Zelensky would have like to known this information before starting Operation ZZZZitadel.. The Russians were just laughing their asses off in spectacular fashion. As was I to be honest. Why are ze German People so dumb as to try and fuck with the Russians AGAIN on behalf of the Terrorist States of America and EUSSR FREAKS like Ursula the warwhore and Guy Verhofstadt???? Have the Germans not learned anything from world war two and the effects of repetitive propaganda???? #RevokeFemaleVotingRights #StopMakingHitlerLookLikeAProphet
my design is completely new system and nothing like those you mentioned. it needs minimum charge to set off each mines individually. in short, it finds and tag the mines with GPS and a small charge that could be detonated remotely on demand so the entire minefield could be cleared before enemy has the time to replenish it. @@disposabull
My pick for the future: Boston Dynamics style "dogs" relayed into the minefield carrying lane clearing line charges. They can already carry up to ~100kg, so ~100 metres of charge line. They can be small. Being electric, they will not show up on most thermal/IR systems as they wander along. They can be quick or slow as needed and, via remote sensor relay, they can be *very* precise. They *can* be made silent in terms of their operation, although they will make noise on the terrain itself. They can be seen via older image intensification systems, assuming someone happens to be looking and they are higher than the surrounding terrain. Low radar profile vs opposition terrain observation radar. For initial clearing, they would seem like a good idea.
Combat Engineer Intelligence officer here: you basically describe the SOSRA process. The technology for clearing lanes through minefield has not really evolved since WW2. Yes we have mine clearing line charges, but their length is limited and they are not 100% solution. Line charges DO NOT clear all mines and are mainly good for 1st generation track attack mines. Track width mine ploughs are NOT meant to clear a lane. They are meant to protect an individual tank while crossing a minefield (to secure the area), but other vehicles should not follow in it's path. Track width mine ploughs do not clear full width mines with magnetic sensors between the tracks, unless equiped with electronic counter-meassures (like the Russian EMT). For the engineers to be able to conduct the reduce of the obstacle, the manoeuver units need to supress, obscure and secure the area. In Ukraine this is extremely difficult. Two things have improved a lot in the past few years: ISR assets (drones for example) and long range fires. Everything is observed and will be targeted with accurate long range indirect fires. The Ukrainian breach attempts south from Orikhiv (7-8 june 2023) mainly failed because the breach lane was under observation and accurute indirect fires, while the area was not secured. Securing an obstacle (or obstacle belt) for the engineers to breach can be extremely difficult. With air supriority this becomes easier, but it often comes down to dismounted infantry breaching small lanes and creating a sort of 'bridge-head', before a lane is created for tanks and vehicles. This is exactly what the Ukrainians are doing. So breach tank are extremely usefull, but you need to set the right battlefield conditions for their use, otherwise you are sending them to their grave. Remote delivered mines can be used to quickly close a breach. Both NATO and Russian doctrine describes their use for this purpose. They should be dropped behind the breach force, so that they are isolated and the assault force can't reinforce them. Breach tanks are rare and it's very likely that the assault force is not equiped with breach tanks. This is a real danger and remote delivered mines were used in this manner by both Russia and Ukraine. A layered system of breach assets is needed for a breach to succeed on the modern battlefield.
I think all militaries doctrine instruct that minefields must be under observation and touchable with fires. And of course mine clearing tanks rank as no 1 target for AT crews
Would it be possible to clear mines by using a horizontal drill rig to emplace a charge that physically excavated a trench wide enough for vehicles? It sounds crazy but the Ditch Witch JT100 for example seems to claim 46 m / min advance, which is much faster and stealthier than the mine clearing flail. Not as fast as the surge speed of the miclic but probably competitive with the reloading cycle of the miclic, and if circumstances allowed you could set multiple charges per drill vehicle before blowing up anything. It's not clear to me whether there's a hope of controlling depth accurately enough with a commercial unit, though. Too deep and the charge won't blast away the overburden, too shallow and you give away the mine clearing effort prematurely.
I was surprised to find the other day that the first mine clearing line charge was invented (and used) in WW2. It was launched by a rocket just like now, but as an empty hose pipe like a fire hose, then nitroglycerin was pumped into the pipe and detonated. This made it seriously dangerous and there was a huge accident after which it wasn't used again during the war.
I was with Dir, of Combat Developments at Ft. Belvoir from 77 to 79. We came up with SLUFAE(Surface Launched Fuel Air Explosive). It allowed for attacking a mine field from several klicks back. When we gave a briefing to the Under Secretary of the Army, a Marine General said "that would be great for final protective fires". He was told to shut up. At that time most counter mine programs were not funded. Tankers didn't want plows and rollers on their beautiful new XM-1 tanks. We had three prototype mine rollers and three prototype mine plows and were told to scrap them. Fortunately, someone just hid them in the Armor Engineer lot at Ft. Knox. When the tankers saw all of the mines in the Kuwait desert, then they were demanding lots of rollers and plows immediately. I see the future of mine clearing to be a combination of standoff munitions, drones with thermal sights to locate the mines, and remote controlled robots to remove or neutralize them. Good Luck, Rick
Pretty much anything would be an improvement ... one thing I noticed is that the better IR drones can show mines when the temperature difference is just right. It would be cost effective to send a little sapper suicide drone to every visible mine @@sealpiercing8476
These vehicles where really designed to clear traditional mine fields, I don't think people realise how dense and large the Russian minefields are. It's something crazy like up to 500 meters deep and around 4 mines per square meter with anti-personel mines along with anti-tank mines. And even if you do manage to clear a path Russia can deploy more mines in the area using missiles. There are also more complicated mine setups where they have a mine or stacked mines which destroy the anti-mine tanks or they have mines connected to pressure pads that are deeper underground setup so when a tank moves over the mine it doesn't go off until the mine is under the belly and the tank triggers a pad that then detonates the mine penetrating the belly of the tank. You also can't go around these mine fields, they are all along the front with barely any gaps.
And don't forget that you don't just have anti tank mixed with anti personnel, you often got many different models of mines in the same field. Which makes it even more difficult, and ontop you got improvised stuff as well, like a grenade under a magazine
Not to mention that these minefields are under observation by various UAV systems and often covered by fire.
I don't know what you think a traditional minefield is, but if you read any doctrine from any professional army on how to develop a minefield, that is exactly how they are supposed to be created.
@@solarwarden1894 Bingo, though the problem isn't so much the systems themselves as it is a doctrinal/technical/logistical insufficiency on the Ukrainian side. Every piece of military hardware is designed within a doctrinal context and under the assumption of proper utilization. The clear problem in Ukraine is that the current military reality in Ukraine doesn't allow them to use their hardware as a proper system of systems with proper doctrinal/technical/logistical integration.
If only we had classic cartoon drill tanks to burrow under the dense fields.
*Channels my inner 1960's American war planner* How effective are nukes at clearing a path in a minefield?
😂
Dude they wanted to use Nukes for everything
We can NOT allow a nuclear mine clearing gap to develop!
Hmmm... Interesting. Maybe we can develop civilian applications.
I suggest they give job to farm equipment manufacturers. It will likely work at a fraction of what they are paying. Also they are familiar with picking ripe fruit and retrieving buried objects. You could start with a Cat D11 dozer starting at 250,000 lbs. Use ground penetrating radar that works on metal and plastic. A/C and remote operation are options. Lastly use a winch propulsion system for mine clearing and tracks for transportation. You sure you can’t make portable bridges as a quick solution and mine clear when you have the time?
The importance of mines can be illustrated by two Second World War examples: People often criticize Montgomery for his caution and need to outnumber his enemy by an almost comical amount before he would attack, and these are valid criticisms in some cases. But at 2nd El Alamein, his massive artillery barrage was arguably a very important factor that allowed his combat engineers to clear lanes through the Axis minefield in relative safety. It has been a little while since I read Roman Töppel's excellent book on Kursk, but one thing I noticed was that popular images of the battle had generally overestimated the effects of things like Soviet armor on the defeat of the German offensive and heavily underestimated the effects of Soviet mines. If I remember correctly, most knocked out Ferdinands were victims of mines that were then destroyed by their own crews and abandoned, and a potential breakthrough in the northern sector failed because the tanks had no infantry support (the infantry being stuck many kilometers behind the armor).
Montgomery wasn't exactly cautious when he went for Operation Market Garden.
@@S0ulinth3machin3 He was but Gavin didn't take his bridges
@@S0ulinth3machin3Monty basically ignored his intelligence reports of nearby German armored units as well as other intelligence reports. Monty should have been court martial for gross incompetence.
@@danielc6925 right. I agree. But Monty still wasn’t “cautious”. No room for error.
"people often"
I had a discussion in the comments of another video with a guy who ran training on MCLC for the US Army Engineer center. They are not as great as people think they are and the skip zones make them less than idea. Basically there are no great solutions and you need to use multiple systems in combination, like MCLCs followed by plows followed by rollers.
Proper demining of just a narrow lane takes a lot of guys, a lot of gear and a lot of time, like hours if not days. Problem is, if there's an enemy then they will never let you use all that. Best case the first makes it through by some miracle but they now know exactly through which tiny bottleneck your assault will come and smoke everything pulling up. Which is why you should only start it when the front has been pushed forward, the enemy guns silenced and the area secured. Mine clearing is a rear activity.
@@mnk9073 what gets me is how the army did not develop an unmanned/optinallymanned breacher vehicle. you think that would be priority 1.
@@MrChickennugget360its not that nobody tried.
@@MrChickennugget360 What would be the point? It would be way more expensive than a manned vehicle and prone to jamming. The main issues still stand, slow speed while clearing, clearing a narrow path that will be a bottleneck to all following forces, sometimes not clearing 100% of the mines, clearing vehicle being first on the frontline once it clears the minefield, vulnerable to artillery and AT teams, the wreck of the vehicle just creating an obstacle on the cleared path, the path getting re-mined by long range launchers.
@@MrChickennugget360 The problem with an unmanned vehicle is that it is unmanned. If you keep driving it around remote controlled, at some point someone is getting a clown shoe sized boot shoved up their behind for designing a perfectly good vehicle without the ability to put anyone in it. So the next revision will have the ability to carry all the crew around anyone is ever going to need to operate it. And of course it will be possible to be operated from inside, jic the remote control gets lost or breaks. Then someone will go through a risk check list, noticing that the operators of the mine clearing tank are not protected from shrapnel from exploding mines and other combat related dangers while operating the mine clearing robot from the outside. So the manuals will be updated that the mine clearing vehicle is to be operated from a support vehicle, if no support vehicle is available, the mine clearing vehicle is to be remote controlled from inside of it and only as a last resort from the outside. Of course there will be never any support vehicle available, even when standing right next to one, because while checking every mark on the suitable roles checklist, from a cigarette lighter to serving as the commander's left slipper, the updated checklist will only be available for an obscure prototype vehicle, that's siphoning off the defense budget for the last 20 years. And 10 years down the line cost cutting measures will remove the remote control ability of "the mud machine" the sergeant major uses to bully around fresh recruits from the comfort of his office when it's raining.
There is a big difference between clearing and breaching minefields, that's why we've largely moved to explosive line throwing for the former and relegate mechanical systems to the latter for maintaining cleared paths and creating new ones behind front lines.
The second one is what i always have in mind when thinking about the Keiler for example sure its loud, dusty and slow but far behind your own lines that should not be the big issue but you can clear large areas with small personal.
Yes and no. Both of these that you mention are breaching techniques. Breaching is the term used to punch a lane through a minefield, possibly while under fire, to an acceptable standard in line with tactical requirements Clearance is the term used for finding and removing 100% of the mines in the mineral area, not under fire and where all emphasis is on safety.
Clearing a field is removing all the mines. Breaching is clearing a lane or lanes so that follow-on troops can get through the minefield.
M48s with that bathtub shaped lower hull was actually very effective at mitigating mine damage in Vietnam back in the day. On "thunder runs" they literally just drove down the roads in pairs with one tank track in each road rut and ran over the mines to clear them. If you lost a track another tank trailing behind took its place and the convoy just kept going. Wouldn't work with more advanced mines available now days, but the guys who did this back then had balls that clanked louder then their tank tracks.
Very good video. Mines arent primarily intended to kill, they are an area denial weapon. They force you to deal with the issue by either clearing the minefield or go around it, either way the enemy is dictating your strategy. The air deployed mines in particular are excellent for this since you don't even need to occupy the territory you are deploying mines in. Even if the enemy knows exactly where your mines are, he still has to clear the minefield and you can just put it straight back after he is done. The only limit is whether you can deploy mines more cheaply than the enemy can clear them. How many mines does an area have to have before you are worried about moving through it, probably not very many I imagine. This heavily favours the defender too since if you aren't attacking you don't have to worry about moving into a minefield. There is also an added benefit that is particularly evident with the widespread use of drones and general visiblity on the battlefield these days. If you have laid a minefield and the enemy breaches it, they will have to breach a relatively narrow front. Provided you can maintain vision on the minefield you can then target either the mineclearers, you any movement through the minefield which will be restricted to narrow lanes. You can even combine this with direct fire to make the area essentially impassable. You cannot clear a minefield while being shot at after all. Overall an incredibly potent weapon.
Area denial and terror lol. There's something about taking one step and being strewn across a battlefield that will always freak folks out.
Glad to see the soil type mentioned. A challenge that isn't always appreciated.
I have an interesting document from the Australian Archives which raises some interesting commentary on the implementation of flail tanks in North Africa. the two most interesting parts were 1.the mine clearing tanks had to be kept under operational secrecy, and were considered a 'one use weapon'. meaning that because the operation and presence of a flail tank was so obvious you could only ever use them if you had the element of surprise, and afterwards their effectiveness would drop dramatically as the enemy would develop countermeasures both in the immediate (it firing AT guns) or the long term sense. 2.Flail tanks were relatively easy to develop direct countermeasures to in field conditions. The example given involved German engineers burying large explosive charges ahead of mines in the minefield. These charges were buried deep enough that the flail would not disturb them and were linked by a length of det-cord to a mine approx. 1.5-2 metres behind the charge. this would cause the mine to effectively act like a fuse for the explosive charge, which would be underneath the flail tank when the flail stuck the mine, thus detonating the charge and destroying the flail tank
That is very interesting. I had no idea that they used this as a countermeasure. Its very smart.
Yeah, I feel like similar stuff would be easy to defeat the plow. 1 in 200 mines, make them deep enough the plow doesn't tilt them and give them a random few seconds of delay when they sense pressure. I'm surprised minefields can be dealt with at all, they seem like a great investment in a static frontline. Couple thousand bucks worth of mines can kill a extremely expensive western tank.
How would that work when the flail tank is moving forward so the mine in the "back" would be struck by the flails first?
Rollers shouldn’t be considered mine clearing equipment. It’s not used to breach/clear mines it’s used to safely detect the edge of a minefield, either by sight or by contact. Then you deploy a mine clearing system, ie blade or MICLIC. After clearing a breach lane, you follow with a roller to ensure all mines in the lane are disposed of “proof the lane.” Once the lane is proofed, there is a quick disconnect on the roller so you can have a fully functioning tank in the battle, which is pretty cool imo.
The thing about minefields is, that they are not considered obstacles if they are not covered with massed fires. You must suppress the enemy fires the entire time you are clearing a path through the mine field. That requires a huge amount of artillery ammunition. Then you must suppress the counter battery fire, defensive artillery, which requires even more artillery ammunition. Breaking through a minefield is hugely expensive in ammunition, something which is in short supply on both sides in Ukraine.
And here's the thing about line charges, they don't proof the lane themselves. The can only be used in conjunction with one of the other methods.
The Russians have been running out of ammo since last June 😂 Keep smoking that hopium
@@AfricanhorrorThey have, the amount of artillery shells being fired by Russia has dropped off a cliff.
@@ricardoamendoeira3800 False. Russian casualties have dropped off a cliff as a direct result of Ukraine losing support from the West. Hardly any artillery is coming in to resupply Ukraine. On the other side, Russian war capacity is rapidly ramping up.
Russia is still able to produce it's own ammo tho. Ukraine is totally reliant on handouts at this point.
I was with the Danish Army Engineers back in 2018 - 2020 and worked with Common Munitions Disposel, ei UXOs and Mines. Clearing minefields wasn't a concern, and definetly not under fire. If possible minefield are to be marked and avoided, simple as. If that isn't possible the minefields are 'secured' with firesuperiority, maybe, at most, under the cover of darkness small assault paths are made so that the far end of a minefield can get assaultet and captured... Then when the enemy isn't around vehicles like plows (I worked with leopard 1 Wisent tanks) to clear lanes/roads. These roads was wide enough to have tanks pass, and a safety margin... Nothing more was done tactically, removing the minefield is either psot-war stuff or something done way behind the front, and often by civilian specialsists, veteran voulenteers, and possibly by trained and oversighted reserve army forces (like the american national guard or the british army reserve)
The Ukranian trained in germany got frustrated that the main tactical advise for minefields they got was, avoid them. But clearing mines under fire is just costly in everything.
Modern war has shown that avoiding the mines is often not feasible because of the volume of mines deployed in a short period of time along a wide unbroken line.
In exercise and training. Real world like in Ukraine is very different.
Igen de az békében egy gyakorlat de ez élesben megy látható volt a sok tank felrobbanva újra telepítik könnyen az oroszok akár a menetoszlop tankjai közé is . Más az elmélet és a gyakorlat a párnásak meg végkép végzetesek
"If that isn't possible the minefields are 'secured' with firesuperiority, maybe, at most, under the cover of darkness small assault under the cover of darkness small assault paths are made " Let me have a check applying this to the ukrainan situation: 1) the minefields are 'secured' with fire superiority: reqirement not met. Russian have around 5:1 artillery superiority on all frontlines 2) under the cover of darkness: Evidently IR sensors, drones equipped with IR cams, and heat seeking ammunitions are not considered here 3) small assault paths are made: evidently the enemy remote mining is not considered here. It seems that we are lacking some basic facts evident from the ukrainan scenario
You need to use 2 assets to conduct a "deliberate breach" to "clear" a route - say a MICLIC and a Plough, not just one unless you want to accept risk with a "hasty breach". The next issue is the depth of major minefields - a MICLIC (or Giant Viper) charge is only good for around 250m. If the minefield is say 1km deep you need to repeat a process of MICLIC then plough 4 times as you clear each 250m segment. Also you need to plan on 50% losses to breaching assets. If you want 4 lanes open you need enough assets to start 8 breaches - 8 x MICLIC, 8 x Plough for a minefield 250m deep. The KMT type option also limits follow on vehicles to the same width. You effectively break up a combined arms team because the BMPs, BTRs etc. can not drive down the same track width lanes as they are narrower than the breaching vehicle. Lastly if you aren't using SOSRA (Suppress, Obscure, Secure, Reduce, Assault) your attempt is likely to fail as the obstacle will be covered by fire and observation.
as soon as there is activity in "mine field" you can expect a direct artillery hit as area was already scouted, measured and mapped for it
@@rcajavus8141 Absolutely, one of the reasons why you plan for 50% losses.
US really needs to replace MICLIC...its never been a very good system. The UK replaced Giant Viper with Python about 15 years ago. Twice the length and uses IM explosives. A Trojan towing 2 units can clear a 400m long path.
@@dogsnads5634 Understood, I just wanted to provide some open source examples. The principles remain the same though.
This definitely ranks up there for the jobs I would least like to do in the military. Sitting duck, trapped in a metal coffin, and you can't even leave even after you did some clearing because the flails may have tossed mines on top of the vehicle. Yeah, couldn't pay me enough to do that. Seems like it should be a priority to make full size drone mine clearing tanks.
"Note this video includes product placement" Omg? I can buy an M1? "Today's sponsor is..." Oh well.
What I think is the real lesson of the present Ukrainian Conflict is that no matter how ink military and political leaderships spills on the topic of "Combined Arms" during peace time, they most always fail to actually apply it in war time to begin with and many fail to ever really apply it, dragging out wars that should have been relatively short.
in italian there is this proverb: "Tra il dire e il fare, c'é di mezzo il mare" . Translated, "There's a world of difference between saying and doing"
Well the problem is Ukraine didn't have a combined arms capability and let the Russians build up this defense line
@@illusions4559 My opinion is that the ukrainan didn't have the means to attack the southern frontline in time. Or maybe they lulled themselves in a false sense of superiority after thaking back kerson and karkiv
During peace time military science seems like a real science sort of like astronomy but after a war it seems like astrology
Go study the Gulf War. That’s how combined arms warfare is done. The Operations Room channel has a great series on that conflict
It's good you bring light to the trap people commonly fall into when coming up with a solution. We often stop trying to solve the problem when we find a solution, where instead, we should be trying to find the new problems our solution will introduce.
Before the Ukraine war, I never thought any force would be mad enough to try and clear mines in range of the enemy. I always assumed that such tanks were used after the battle to clear the space for additional deployments, not actually on an active battlefield. Madness.
only a cocaine high general would make such combat operation and send troops to do it
There’s no other choice
the problem is that there simply isnt anywhere on the frontline that isnt covered by mines from both sides. if either side wants to make an attack, they have to go through those mines and theres no other practical way to defeat them than to use those vehicles. its not that either side is stupid for trying to attack through them, its just that no alternative exists.
Well, then, until you remember the Ukrainian military is a Nazi organization full of Nazis, who are psychotic fanatics, not rational actors.
@@rcajavus8141 or a general who has 300,000 unnecessary soldiers that he can send to their death, knowing that due to closed borders the population cannot escape, and he will receive another 600 thousand in 2 months
So much knowledge packed in this video that no one outside of the forces consider. Very well presented and visualised. Thank you.
Since these systems are rather rare, expensive, slow and very exposed when they're used, the fist thing you need to do to clear a minefield, is completely suppress any artillery system in the surrounding area and obtain air dominace.
Army engineers train for years to be able to clear minefields and IEDs. A few weeks of months of training will not prepare them for the most complex minefield since WW2. In a few months, the remaining Ukrainian combat engineers, having gathered enough experience can pass that to new recruits and eventually they'll be much more effective.
It may have been mentioned in the comments already, but the mine plow equipped Leopard 2R donated to Ukraine by Finland were selected for donation specifically because they didn't work in the Finnish terrain. There may be a need for multiple types in a nation's or organization's inventory.
That unit was destroyed in its second day in operation One day to stage Day day blown up in the first 200m
Another big problem is that the assault units are limited to the cleared lane. For example, the famous video where the Ukrainian platoon litterally became one-legged platoon(every soldier lost at least a leg). There were MICLIC remains present, so the lane was there....but the unit got hit with artillery and left the safe zone. One by one the soldiers found their mines. Bradleys tried to rescue them but either got git themselfes or the rescue teams also triggered mines the moment they stepped on the ground. The hopelessness of the situation was insane.
Very well-thought-out and produced video! Excellent work!
Glad you liked it!
In 1993 I got blown up by a TM-52 missed by a KMT-5 attached to a T-55. I learned a lot and cleared landmines for the next 30 years to come. The most successful system, not mentioned here, is the ROTAR Sifter. Invented by me, there are some 54 units deployed by the US Army worldwide.
Yeah, we didn't mention the system here since it is not suited for a combat situation.
@@MilitaryHistoryVisualized Hi, I've been trying to leave a thoughtful comment about what I think is a good way to breach a minefield, but it keeps getting auto-removed by YT. If you could perhaps find it in the moderation bin and approve it, I would appreciate it.
@@SwordOfApollo I checked the "held for review" comments, but there is only one from the last 12 hours and it is not yours.
@@MilitaryHistoryVisualized Thank you. This is strange. I don't know why that comment won't go through and it's not even there for your review.
@@SwordOfApollo KZhead is quite buggy, particularly lately, I got recommended videos from my own channel, this did not happen in the prior last 7 years...
Excellent Video. Learned something today. Thank you for the Sources on Videos particularly on the Keiler. That will come in handy in the future.
First, this video is impressive in the research, content, and presentation. That you're getting comments from people who are familiar with these assets is an indication of the quality of your content. I'm going to state the obvious, though. To some, US first gulf war made assault through minefields look easier than it is. I believe a large part of that is that the US not only established air superiority, they eliminated a lot if not most artillery and armor that was near the minefields, that we had an ability to eliminate anything that had direct observation, and we had excellent and long range counter battery fire. Combined arms and numerical superiority at at assault isn't a luxury, it's required.
So glad to see more of your content again!
Very informative. Thank you for sharing with us.
That system on T-72 makes more sense than the one on Abrams, with rollers. If I saw well (but could be wrong), that Abrams has 2 rollers to the front in front of the tracks and one in the middle, at the back. The issue I have is that there are mines that use tilt rod to detonate. And if that thing is in the middle, then it is perfect position for it. Then the bottom of the tank will touch the rod, tilt it (as the name suggests) and it will detonate right under the tank, sending a shaped charge (or rather EFP) right into the bottom of the vehicle... That is why plows are way better. So, the list you shown here is pretty good. Though, I have a suspicion about those vehicle that use "explosive ropes". Pressure mines have systems that prevent pressure (obviously) from these systems to activate them (radial stepping plate, for example)., so while it would detonate the mines it lands directly on, I'm not so sure about those that are near by... Also, some tanks have, as you mentioned, systems that increase magnetic field of the tank (M84 have it, though not all of them) thus making the mine with that fuse explode way too soon...
Missed opportunity for "Why they f(l)ail". I'm pondering about the operational use of these, I just can't see them being used in an assault. Perhaps this video will get in to that. Also, the flailing types were, affectionally, called "SADO/MASO" in Finnish service. (The usual SISU, PASI, etc.) I'm literally laughing out loud at that Logitech gaming pad the use to drive that, eh, Goliath. I have one, it's pretty good. :)
lol
@@MilitaryHistoryVisualized wonder if a goliath like tracked vehicle could drag mine clearing charges across the ground which will be less risky than using any mine clearing vehicle. Another possibility is to use programmed drones in a line that can go in tandem and drop mine clearing charge line.
There is no such thing as an assault during a breach into a minefield like this. It takes weeks to clear the field, not minutes.
From your video and other comments i can see quite clearly what a heck of problems the troops and tanks are facing to cross those minefields. Many people have died because of this even after more than 10 years in Tuscany were I live. Good job 👏 👍 👌
The real issue is kilometers long ATGM teams and drone corrected artillery. Makes it impoosible to do anything in mass without getting all the lead vehicles blown up, seen countless times on both sides in Ukraine.
Dam I got wayyy better understand now no doubt wish this was broadcasted on the news so people had way better understanding
Big slow moving ammo magnet.
Suppress, Obscure, Secure, Reduce, Assault; The task of reducing any mine obstacle is a mission for a unit depending on size of minefield and guarding force. For example in order to reduce an obstacle with a platoon you need a whole Company for the specific Task and it is a Mission for an entire Battalion. Not being too detailed more or less.
Great presentation on this subject
Thank you for a interesting discussion of mines.
Very interesting and underrated topic! Could you do a follow up, discussing modern solution options (drones, automotive driving, ISR) which could be implemented to clear minefields?
This reminds me of an old Star Trek Deep Space Nine episode in the Federation used a self replicating mind field to impede the Dominion war fleet. The ability of the Russians to quickly and easily thicken or replace minefields has been vastly undervalued by many experts. And, suppressing all of the anti-tank assets in an area to enable de-mining operations in an age of drone, helicopter, and aerial and satellite surveillance seems like a very good way to tell your enemy that you are coming without lots of very expensive deception operations going on at the same time.
You mentioned terrain being a factor for a roller, but it is also a factor for the plow! Here in finland we bought plows but then testing proved that they're useless for our terrain and were out to be scrapped until they got sent to Ukraine, where the terrain is much better for them.
Too many rocks?
@@IvanTre I'm not an expert on the subject but I think yes? It's just what the military said/commented about the shipment to the general media so the details are somewhat vague. I can try to go look for the exact reasons. But now we just have tanks with rollers so dunno.
As a combat engineer and EOD, i can tell you that Mine Clearing Line Charges (MICLICS) have several problems. Minefields are generally way deeper than 100 meters, especially in Ukraine 400meter and more are common. If you want to breach a minefield deeper than the maximum clearing capacity of the MICLIC, you will have to shoot two: reloading times aren't extremely long, but that kind of defeats the whole "it is way faster than anything else" argument, and also after the first charge what you are trying to do is as visible to the enemy as it would be with a flail, if not even more so. Also: The second charge would pretty much have to be exactly in line with the cleared path of the first charge, and with the rockets used in those tanks and also with the environmental factor, i would not bet on that that works. Last point, a minor one: the charge loosens up the soil, possibly making the difference between "just good enough for a company to attack through" and "secons vehicle trying to pass will get stuck". With a flail of plow, the breach will be 10 times more passable for the vehicles to come.
I would think then a hovercraft made from fiberglass zooming over a minefield spreading linecharges/charges behind could work for demining several hundred meters fast...It would be very vulnerable, but for a surprise attack it could work, it could also be autonomous, working as a drone...
Very clever idea.
“America's cultural contribution. One million landmines, and my hovercrafts float right over them.” - Colonel Moon Tan-Sun
Until they can detect the hovercraft above it and you are back to square one.😂😅
@@tomizatko3138magnet exist....
@@tomizatko3138 the mine charge would lose most of the penetration capability before it reaches the hull of the hovercraft moving 1m above the ground, I suppose
Lol no, they wouldn't. AC vehicles will still trigger AT mines jn numerous ways depending on the mine. Hell, a stick trigge reaching up 10 inches would do it for cheap.
@@camojoe83 a hovercraft at full speed over land flies higher than that.
More good stuff! Thank you!
It should also be noted that mine clearing and assaulting through a mine barrier are entirely different concepts. While a Keiler would suck in an assault role, it would actually be quite effective at clearing secure areas.
Eureka, I’ve got it. Something like a hamster wheel with 18 inch thick steel rims, just need some willing volunteers or an internal mechanism to keep the thing rolling. It’ll be effectively indestructable, but admittedly could only go in straight lines.
A modern Panjandrum might not be a horrible idea.
I particularly loved the video. Very relaxed in it's feeling
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you for this very relevant and timely discussion!
Thanks for this! Very helpful!
A few additional lessons from Ukraine: Incendiary artillery rounds are useful for burning down vegetation that can conceal mines and will make some of them visible. Aerial drones with thermal imaging cameras can detect some surface mines, especially at certain times during the day when the difference in temperatures between mines and the surface is greater. Aerial drones can be used to either detonate mines with a dropped explosive or to pick up and carry the live mines with a grabbing claw on a line. This is inefficient for large scale clearing and only some of the mines can be cleared like this but it can reduce mine density remotely while the operator is relatively safe. Theoretically some AI operated surface and aerial drones could clear an area over time but the systems would be expensive and there is some doubt about the verification of clearing all mines in a path. The serious hindrance of mines in modern warfare suggests that a larger number of mine clearing vehicles should probably be acquired by most armies.
This is one of the reasons Ukraine asked for F-16's well over a year ago. An army doesn't need air dominance over the entire battle space but over a section that will allow sappers time enough to clear paths and suppress artillery and helicopters. A rethink is needed for this problem anyway, like using small remote or AI vehicles to string out mine clearing charges or lower cost full size remote vehicles in order to have more of them. So many the enemy can't destroy them all fast enough.
US doesn't want to see its equipment get destroyed on camera. It's bad marketing, drops the sales of their weapons systems. That's why Abrams and F16 are still not seen on the battle field.
Yeah but they would need 100s of F-16s to get such local air superiority. Russia has dense air defenses and would quickly deploy more assets in area you are trying to breach. In addition Russia has rather lots of cruise missiles and ballistic missiles which would now have F-16s as targets on few air bases that can host them.
@@tomk3732 Understood, which is why this war scales up fast. The US would fight this war very differently than Ukraine is being forced to fight. They would probably start by pushing back Russian air assets with their own cruise missile attacks on Russian bases and infrastructure based inside Russia. Also protecting their own bases with Patriots, Thaad and the like would be a priority. Ukraine should be allowed and funded to develop and mass produce its own cruise and ballistic missiles. This is all possible but my opinion is that the west doesn't want Putin to leave power since they fear the unknown more than they fear his conquest of Ukraine.
As usual with your videos very informative
MHV always has such interesting subjects. Thank you again Bernhard.
My pleasure!
You should also talk about the challenge of detecting mines in the first place. Its not feasible to just assume there are mines everywhere and anywhere. These are assets they have to bring up when needed. Often times, the unit only realize they are in one when they hit one. but it could also be a very thing minefield used for delaying action to fool them into thinking it is a denser minefield. There are ground penetrating radar vehicles, mine detectors by engineers and now drones with thermographic cameras, magnetic detection and so on. And ofc these tools help mine clearing too.
Thank you for this.
Very good video thanks for your great work 👍
I was many years ago actualy a mine flail driver among other things. I just thought i share a little knowledge. The white mineflail tank you see in the video is an older version and its easy to see that it have a design flaw that can jepody the tank and crew safety.. The tank drive in a streight line and so does the mine flail. It so to speak dig lines in the ground just like if you pull your fingers though sand in a streight line. You will get some deep lines in the sand where the fingers was while other become taller and untouched. Other kind of mine flails does the same, but they move the flail a little bit to the left and right and the mine flaim that spins move in a zig-zag patern as it drive forward. This reasult in better mine clearing since there is no "lines" in the ground where potentially an anti personel mine is untouched.. But in general mine flails just dont belong in the front line in any army. They are really slow and many models do like 300-500m pr hour and cover a 3m wide track or more.. some flails do not even clear a wide enough path for tanks to follow behind so it have to remove the track 2 times to make the cleared path wide enough. Also mine flaims are actually very expensive its like +5-7000usd pr hour and the chains only last example 10 houres before the metal are worn out and fall off, and also everytime you hit a tank mine a few chains are ripped off that you need to change = you have to leave the vehicle to do so in a mine field with the enemy pointing at you. Mine flails are however okay for peacekeeping missions and humanitarian work and the ones that can zip-zag can make it like 99,9% safe to walk on the ground afterwards. either the mines explode or fall appart and then there is only the detonator left. They are however almost worthless regarding comming to the rescue since it take +1 hour for them to reach the area. They can also remove mines on runways and roads by reversing the direction of the chains, and then mines can be removed rather quick. Personaly im a bigger fan of an automated remote controled tank with a plow that you just send forward in an assault and with AI now a days i dare to say that is the way forward. But with all military gear no system can stand alone and it depend on the terrain and situation what tool to use in the toolbox. That is how armys work. But there are many different kind of ways to remove mines. Some places they use rats to find mines, other places they sprey gene modificed seeds on fields and when there is mines nearby the flowers changes colour. Other places drones are used. regarding mines then most of the ones you see in ukraine/russia are the old simple mines. But now a days there are also intelligent mines that can mesure vibrations in the ground and send signals to the HQ about enemy activity. They can remote control them and turn on/off depending on who should go though. Also some mine types have a timer that allow you to say that example in 365 days from now they should deactivate so they are no longer dangerous. THis is great after a war that you know after x time mines no longer work. But in general more or less everything you can imagine can be done now a days. Sometimes mines also move their original location when there is heavy rain or flooding.. it was quite normal to hear explosions in the mountains in serbie and kosovo when the ice hocky mines move around. The worst thing was the bomblets from clusterbombs since some did not explode and landed all kind of places or be thrown up on top of the mine flail. Fun thing.. i think it is the belgian army they have inflatable boots so they can walk into minefields. I did not dare to try. I did my self by accident walk though 2 mine fields since i came from the wrong direction and could not see the marked signes. I can laugh about it today but it could have been tragic.
Thanks, great write up. Yeah, even the silly solviets throw in enough wierd stuff to mess with mine clearing. A tripple stack of anti tank mines with an artillery shell seems like it could easily take out any mine clearing vehicle. Or at least damage it.
A very good video. Thank you!
Great episode.
My pioneering teacher at OSH (Offizierschule des Heeres Dresden) addressed why a rather new vehicle uses an M-48 chassis, although Leopard-2 hulls were available. He said the representative of the manufacturer told him they deliberately chose the M-48 because of its cast hull. All subsequent MBTs use welded hulls. This is a good idea in combat, but apparently a cast hull can withstand the constant pressure waves from exploding mines better.
Cheaper too
What about a long chain of Bangalore torpedoes? also, any advances in vibration based shape mines? Thanks for your great work as always!
I think the chain flail clearers are probably the best. Run so they fling ordnance and triggers out the front, they're probably the most durable and effective. Also, you can make one out of about any piece of equipment if you don't have a tank.
Excellent thank you
Thanks for this great Video! the Product Placement works => In the Moment i am writing with some guys from KWM to apply the keiler front part to my toyota :-)
One interesting developement (I think... might be wrong): I remember a video about a thermal picture of a minefield at dawn. Mines where clearly seen, because they always have a different thermal signature. Combine that with a fleet of drones, like the ones they use in India, to plant 100 million trees in a month, and use them in reverse, to pick up the heat signatures. Maybe mine fields are history soon.
Maybe peoples are history soon
Interesting!
I think an interesting proposition would be to look back at the American SLUFAE, and looking into something similar to destroying mines, maybe using clutter munitions to do so? It may be more expensive but it would likely be safer for everyone going to clear maybe.
Clearing and breaching a minefield are two different things. And given new realities.... infinitely harder. Informative as always.
eod work is different than breeching actions in combat, i think this should be seen as different tasks when dealing with mines and thinking about used equipment. there are always new ideas around the corner like autonomous mine detection drones. a logic next step for combat mineclearing would be line charges deployed by drones to get a longer standoff distance or shoot them from cover. am curious how all this works in 10 years from now.
Question: Could you map and detect mines with a lidar drone or something similar? Follow that with drones to place small charges on the mines that could be remote detonated simultaneously. It could be quiet and possibly at night or with a smoke screen.
Lidar doesn't penetrate soil. Radar cant distinguish mines from funny rocks and other trash Metal detectors see trash and not all mines have metal bodies. It would have to be a pretty advanced miltimodal expensive system. And it would still be slow and miss rare configurations
I'm no combat expert but I would think you could drop a bunch of smoke ahead as the mine clearing areas. Wouldn't stop drones from seeing but it would help prevent any ground forces from seeing what was happening.
I would think that more use of remote controlled mine clearing vehicles based on a full sized flail or plow manned type would be used for combat situations reserving manned units for minefields that fall behind the lines. I know this doesn’t seem to be a thing yet but surprised it doesn’t exist.
Flails haven't been used seriously for years. They're only used by mine cleaing in safe areas, by charities and the like, for anti-personnel mines.
Problem with remote controlled mine clearing vehicles is the "remote controlled" part.
There was a Ukraininan video about the problem in Ukraine, the mines were tripple-stacked. There was an artillery shell at the bottom and two mines on top with an anti tamper device. That means there is explosives equivalent to 4 mines, for which the mine clearing tanks were not built to handle and get immobilized. The only ones that are effective are the line charges.
Link to the tripple stacked mines video... kzhead.info/sun/jKiThNCRgJOvhHA/bejne.html
When talking about the line charges, I feel it should be mentioned that the mine fields in ukraine are 4 times longer than the vehicle based lines (and 11 times longer than the infantery ones).
Another thing that I am surprised wasn't mentioned at all in this video is that artillery barrages and bombs can be used to clear mine fields. Im unsure on what extent this is done in ukraine but during WW2 heavy artillery barrages were commonly used to clear lanes through mine fields, and dropping a line of bombs can also clear a lane through a mine field. These are far more wasteful then other methods but the fact they can be done quickly and instantly clear large sections of mine fields is a large bonus that cant be ignored.
I assume that future mine clearing (although the Ukrainian's are rapidly innovating so we may see it soon) will likely be carried out by a mix of small UAV's and very small disposable unmanned ground vehicles or drones which maybe managed by AI systems. The airborne UAV's will use thermal imaging and perhaps millimetre wave or ground penetrating radar to detect the mines. Then a large swarm of cheap disposable UGV's or FPV type drones are delivered into the minefield. Each one positions itself over or adjacent to a mine and detonates its 'kamikaze' warhead. Basically we are talking about a 'smart' dispersed multi-element 'MICLIC'. I can even see a large UAV or UGV being used as a 'mother-ship' for hundreds of disposable kamikaze 'micro MICLICS'. We are not far from this point. If someone can combine the quadcopter UAV carried Thermal imaging and ground-penetrating radar systems we are starting to see in Ukraine with computer managed drone swarm tech we are seeing in drone light displays and the cheap FPV kamikaze drones we are seeing proliferate in the field then you have the makings of a dispersed autonomous mine clearing system. Airborne LIDAR and computer managed optical survey techniques seem like other remote detection options. If LIDAR can see ancient ruins hidden under jungle for thousands of years from aircraft, then LIDAR mounted on UAV's could definitely detect and map the soil disturbance that indicates a buried mine. The hardware already exists. Its integration and software that needs to be created.
Ukraine is legit rapidly developing, they are like on 40th mobilisation wave. Crimea by summer with spring counteroffensive 😂
i imagine being a crewman in a mine clearing tank, clearing mines for an attack in a hot zone, must be nerve destroying
I've often wondered by no one has explored sonic resonance of mines. We know that all objects will resonate with the right frequency and vibrate. Some until they shatter. If you make the volume loud enough, you can deafen the enemy or even disorient them so they cannot function. The LRAD showed that a coherent re-enforcing beam of noise can be so strong that it temporarily debilitates the target. LRAD can be directed to even make it unpleasant for pirates approaching a merchant vessel. It would not take much research to work out the frequency at which the detonation circuit starts vibrating and putting enough volume into the speaker that the ground literally vibrates and is then scanned across the ground at far enough away so the mine is triggered without affecting the speaker. Of course It would require the mine clearance crew to do this by remote if they wanted to keep their hearing, but at least it would cover a larger area and should activate enough mines to declare the area clear. Anything that did not detonate after being shaken beyond resonance is not likely to go bang anyway. You might even be able to place the speaker on a dirigible with splinter-resistant fabric and fly the balloon up and down corridors repeatedly until the field is clear. Just to make a point, Ukrainian anti-personal mine clearance consists of using a long tree branch and then whacking the butterfly mine outside the lethal zone. Directing a high-volume LRAD would certainly make most butterfly mines vibrate.
the flails at least and some tactics are likely a result of a lot of the mine clearing experience, and as a result R&D, from the past 70 years has come from clearing mines in a non active combat zone by peace keeping missions and so on. relatively speaking there hasn't been too many large scale conflicts where there has been a need to clear large scale mine fields at the front lines under hostile presence.
The video would have been better for the larger public if you had started with an introduction that explains what kind of (land) mines there are, what triggers them, and how these are deployed. That makes the story of how to remove them and its dangers, risks, and complexity a lot clearer.
I worked with an old sherman chassis made to clear mines anna cat d9 for a xerox subsidiary on the liberia/cote de ivorie border in 99-2000. We was clearing mines for the peace corps in the run up to the civil war starting back up. I stepped onna surplus ww2 mine February 17th 2000 and lost both of my feet.
This makes me wonder: would there be any sense of giving some sort of mine clearing equipment for most if not all assault vehicles? They could cross the minefiled independently instead of following the few lead vehicles. It's not fool proof, obviously, but sounds to me like the best bet when enemy fires or surveillance can't be suppressed entirely.
A remote controlled tank with no offensive capability maybe could be used, it being unmanned means it could just drive straight through and activate all the mines and keep operators safe. Have critcal component's armored more and since its de-armed even if the enemy takes control of it the only thing it could be used for is mineclearing
Exactly. Nowadays there is literally no reason to use people for such dangerous tasks. Automatised T55 without the turret, extra armour plates slapped here and there and a plow at the front would do wonders. One could even slap a steel rope behind it and when tank is destroyed it could be dragged back clearing another lane :). The sad thing is however that western military is incredibly slow to learn and corrupted to the extreme. Cheap is bad for business. Unfortunately the war in Ukraine can be won only by cheap and disposable with some support of specialised systems. Not the other way around. We see this in case o FPV drones that handly overwhelm more expensive systems.
In modern combat you have a lot of drones and artillery working together. This is probaly the reason. When all this things starting to work it will be visible for enemy and destroyed pretty fast with artillery.
Mine flails were initially designed to clear sandy beaches of primitive mines, against an enemy unprepared for armour to be coming at them, unprepared for being attacked at all, and in an age before man-portable anti-tank weaponry.
Could an air-burst bariatric munition be used prior to an advance?
I saw a russian mine clearer take mine after mine after mine and survive. That thing went kilometers before one managed to immobilize. That being said, it was doing more than 6kmph
Can we all just agree that the M1150 looks the most like the most Sci-fi tank of the lot. that thing looks like every 80s and 90s kids dream of what a tank should be
My Dad was in a Sherman Crab from D Day onwards. One of Hobart’s Funnies. He’s was with the Westminster Dragoons.
Very good video
Do they use ground penetrating radar drones to map out mine fields? Perhaps this way you wouldn't need to define to move forward if the minefield is a bit patchy.
can all mines be detected accurately on a minefield with metal detectors on drones and are there wide area metal detectors for such an operation available?
I'm sure that like all your content, this is well researched and well reasoned.... *But Flail tanks are freaking cool and that's a hill I'm gonna die on*
If you had an air compressor the size of the tank or have one in tow how easy it would be to grab several of the old disassembled tank turrets for use as a mega air wands. Remount the expendable turrets and bend the barrels to point and move in a desirable array, joy stick or autonomously controlled device in conjunction with whatever demineing chassis deemed appropriate to carry or push the extra load. In whatever scheme you can point out for demineing, the absence of large volumes of compressed air has been entirely overlooked or deliberately discounted.
That was an interesting video.
good video
Thank you