The Welsh Filmmaker That Proved Jackie Chan Wrong
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The Raid Redemption & The Raid Berandal are two of the best martial arts movies ever made. I explore its martial arts and how Gareth Evans went against the advice of Jackie Chan.
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Sources:
🎥 The Raid Redemption (& behind the scenes)
🎥 The Raid Berandal (& behind the scenes)
🎥 Merantau
🎥 Shanghai Noon
🎥 Drunken Master
🎥 Police Story (1&2)
🎥 Movie scenes sourced from Every Frame a Painting video (could not find them all)
🎥 Office Space
🎥 John Wick 3: Parabellum
🎥 Expendables 3
🎥 Legend
🎥 The Dark Knight Rises
Articles:
Independent article: shorturl.at/pFH03
Guardian Article: shorturl.at/gLY19
KZhead videos:
• Unleashing Havoc: The ...
• Jackie Chan - How to D...
• The Art of Action - Ga...
• Jackie Chan - Intervie...
• Iko Uwais Martial Arts...
• The Raid 2 Interview -...
• EXPEND4BLES (2023) Iko...
• Cecep Arif Rahman | Fi...
• Mile 22 Behind The Sce...
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I think The Raid makes it work because the shaking doesnt hide the movements, it emphasizes the stress of the situation.
Exactly, it's not to show the martial arts.
indeed
I also noticed instead of the sort of cut on contact, then repeat the hit again for emphasis, that same idea was applied to the loadup instead and the hit was shown through
Yeah. You can still see the whole fight despite the crazy camera movements
This.
I actually don’t think these two filmmakers are that different at all. They’re arguing for the same principle: clarity.
Yes, precisely. Furthermore, Jackie's not at all talking about the sort of editing you see in The Raid. If you've seen enough movies you know what he means-- it's the way they edit fight scenes in Marvel movies, or that scene in Taken 3 where they cut 15 times to show Liam Neeson climbing a fence. Jarring editing that hides untalented action actors and produced unreadable sludge. Jackie's not proven wrong by a good movie making reasonable filmmaking decisions. They're not connected in the first place.
In somewhat different ways?
Yeah, the The Raid movies are filmed for clarity too. There's really no contradiction here.
@@Kelohmelloto be fair. Taken 3 is a really extreme example. Even in that movie the worst is that fence jump. But to be even fairer. Resident evil 6 (the movie) has like 50 of those cuts in an even shorter scene, and unlike taken 3 it's not even on a stupid fence jump but an actual main action scene, and as you probably can guess is nauseatingly bad.
@@spooderderg4077 Resident Evil 6's camera work was so horrible. Speak what you want about the quality of the previous movies, but the action sequences in them were quite well shot and directed. The last one felt like they didn't care at all, just tried to put the movie out as close to Resident Evil 7 (the game) release
One thing to remember is that Jackie himself kind of went through a very similar process. As he started out, everyone wanted him to be a Bruce Lee clone. Even he himself admired Bruce's work. But he acknowledged that if he only imitated, he would not progress. So he deliberately did things to contrast his style with Bruce. That way we got the fast and wild slapstick style action comedy of his breakout films. So seeing Evans looking at his heroes and deliberately breaking the rules of those heroes. And still staying true to the message of having clear geography and depicting mastery of martial arts fully. He did learn the greater lessons. And gained his own style of action direction.
He actually just could not do the things necessary to play a clone. He did one clone movie and it did not do good so he found his own way. Its not that he could not progress, it was more that his career would end there if he kept trying to do it.
@@gandalainsley6467That's what the OP said. He wouldn't progress by being a clone, so Jackie did his own thing.
@@maplenerd22nah OP said Jackie just didn’t wanna be a clone, when in actuality it’s because Jackie learned he couldn’t fight or move like Bruce which is the real catalyst for him abandoning straightforward martial arts flicks.
@@YourMomsNewHusbandanother detail nobody has mentioned was that Jackie Chan didn't like the robotic style of Bruce Lee. Which is one big contrast he does to show pain, and mistakes during the fight. And after the movie he shows his bloopers. He wanted to humanize the movie martial artist. Which is why his characters are normally every day people that happen to know how to fight. His hands hurt he rubs his head and makes silly faces.
Well said
Let's not forget that during Jackie Chan's time, a mobile camera rig that could follow the action would have been more of a dream than what's actually possible. So, his views and approach were based on the equipment available at the time.
True
100%, his comments are off that time, the techniques and choreography has improvement immensely since then. His comments would probably be different now.
Jackie Chan was my favorite, loved his movies. Jet Li came sometime after but Jackie chan forever =D
This. I was about to comment the same thing. Another thing is I never watch any Raid movie, I watched some clips from teasers and trailers but not the movie itself, but even from watching the clips of the film in this video, imho, Jackie Chan opinions still stands true. The actors, including the MC still pulling punches, and most of their movements in hand-to-hand combat had many 'flailing hands' because they tried to show more impacts for the scenes but that made it more unnatural. Some of the scenes also lacked speed. If you watch Jackie Chan movies, you will stay for the credits, because there we can see the hard works and commitments he put into his movies, which most all of them had cause him some injuries and several broken bones. Some scenes even got delayed for months because he injured so badly.
Very well observed @user-ng7of8zx8t
Much like CGI not being bad per se, it's just bad CGI sticking out like a sore thumb while good CGI goes out unnoticed. Never seen anyone criticize The Raid for fast cutting, close ups and weak lighting because the filming techniques aren't being used to cover up anything. But everyone remembers an aging Liam Neeson getting 15 fast cuts to show him climbing over a fence.
Nah bro, not that climbing scene 😂😂😭😭
😂 facts
THE INFAMOUS FENCE CLIMB😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
An example of great use of CGI was that scene in the first Raid movie where the cops are hiding in the passage way of a stairwell and the goons are on the floors above them and one goon comes into the passageway and a single shot gets fired shown in slow motion that lights up everyone and gives their position away, it was so dope
The Raid did use CG, but it was mostly just for blood and gore. And for the muzzle flashes since they were using airsoft guns (either for budget or legal reasons)
The Raid films still maintain Chan's fundamental point. They don't cut or chop up each punch or kick. What Chan does with a stable cam, Raid does with a dynamic cam.
Err no, The Raid movies prove Jackie Chan right. They follow the same principles as expressed by Jackie Chan but they bend it, not break it. The colour tone being black and blue and how they 'seem' dark is just an illusion when you look past that you realise the fighters are really well lit - it's just good cinematography. Also the amount of cuts is no less or more than a highly kinetic Jackie Chan fight sequence. The shots although shaking do not sacrifice clarity in their framing ie. the viewers can discern the action. Finally you have great choreography performed by people who know how to move. What you see is a stylistic difference but not a difference in principles. I have to disagree with you heavily on this.
shut up
I believe the color tone being black and blue isn't intentional. Gareth Evans said on his IG account that he just didn't have enough experience back then to do color grading correctly. He is actually working on it and a new corrected version will be out soon for the 4k HDR release.
This. Shaky cam and dark lighting are bad when they unnecessarily obscure things. The application of these for dramatic effect but controlled to ensure that no important parts are obscured, means that the rules Jackie stated are followed.
Agreed.
For me the biggest point Jackie makes becomes really clear with the raid movies and its cuts… each cut makes you feel that the actor is being replaced by a stunt double even for a few frames…the action looks good but it gives the sense that the actor doesn’t know martial arts that well.
Gareth Evans is absolutely one of the best and also most underrated action directors around. Everyone has watched or at least heard of The Raid, but there are so many other amazing projects he’s also worked on like Gangs of London. Hope his name becomes more mainstream
Tom Hardy and other big acting names are attached to his next project (which should be released this year), so good hopes for it!
I'm pretty sure Gangs of London is an adaptation of Gangs of London for PSP, a spinoff of The Getaway and The Getaway: Black Monday
@@storytellers1I believe the film is called Havoc.
@@storytellers1 have you got any information about where they Will publish that movie?
Is Gangs of London worth watching?
It's not that Jackie is wrong... it's just that it takes a lot of talent to get it right by doing it the wrong way. That's why there are very few films like The Raid.
Agreed
Double agree.
Good writers can follow the rules. Great writers can break them. Until you know why the rules are there and why you might want to break them, it's safer to just follow the rules.
@@ProfDCoy reminds me of jazz music. I can never understand that witchcraft. But I enjoy it.
It's not wrong if you use it with stylistic intent, it's only wrong if you use it trying to cover lack of skill. The actors in The Raid were actual Silat practitioners with high level skills, that's why the stylistic choice of fast cuts could work. It's the same as painting. Picasso was totally able to draw and paint realisticly (if you look at his early work) he just reached a point when he needed new ways to express himself artisticly hence he invented the style he became famous for. Nowadays at lot of young arts students try immediately to get into abstract painting to hide the fact that they haven't mastered the drawing basics, and so also their abstract paintings suck. And in Hollywood, this happens because nowadays, they choose actors based on good looks, not on high skills, so they need every trick in production to cover their lack in skills.
You missed the main reason the shaky cam and camera cuts work well in the raid: they're actually still stable, just not in a way that anyone had ever thought of at the time Jackie Chan gave that interview. This technique revolves around keeping the point of interest at the exact same location on the screen, even when switching cameras. This in effect makes it so that your eyes never actually have to move to a different part of the screen, and you automatically keep seeing clearly what's going on, even though it might appear as if the camera is chaotic. There's an excellent example at 2:57 (although if you start to pay attention to it, you can see that in pretty much each camera cut the point of interest remains stable on screen). We see the guy pick up a plate and throw it. He is the point of interest of this shot. Right before the camera cut, he is at 1/3rd on the left of the screen, and his head is at 1/3rd from the top. Then there's a cut, and the New Most Interesting Thing (the impact of the plate against the opponent's face), happens at 1/3rd on the left of the screen, and his head is at 1/3rd from the top. Exactly where our eyes were already pointing at in the previous shot. So in a sense, the main element that makes this work so well still revolves on stabillity of camera technique, just not in the same way Jackie Chan imagined it.
Excellent analysis! I never thought about this before, but it makes sense why The Raid is still easy to watch even though I usually get sick from shaky cams: the eye movement is what makes the viewer sick.
Yep, it maintains the clarity of the scene. Which is what Jackie valued. They aren't opposite at all, just using the same emphasis on clarity while using different techniques.
They did that in Fury Road, too.
@@anarchisttutor7423 and it was amazing
I guess that kind of depends on what is the point of reference the viewer is looking for. It's true that the person throwing the plate and the person getting hit by it are in the same place of the frame, but if the viewer is tracking the plate instead that creates a small distance on the screen after the cut.
Jackie actually cuts pretty fast - you just don’t notice the cuts because the shot design, the flow of the performance, and fact that cuts were built into the choreography made the edits feel very seamless
There is a lot of cuts in his movies that I as a kid never noticed. It could have been because of tv quality at the time but you can see where he inserted doubles now easily.
Jackie does cut less than his conteporanies in Hong Kong to be fair. Sammo is a much more "dynamic" editor than him. But yes Hong Kong action, which is the peak of action cinema, is filled with cuts. They're just shot with the cuts in mind.
Yes, Jackie Chan movies were like the opposite of Tsui Hark movies. No one can claim that Tsui Hark’s actors didn’t know how to fight 😀
Yoo dont forget , Jackies film is ages ago , no editing software and camera still weight a tons .
It’s not that, the real difference is that the fight is a single fight shot from different angles, as opposed to a fight shut with multiple breaks in between
Rule 1: never underestimate your audience Rule 2: always show the impact Rule 3: the audience is able to think edit: rule 4: effects that go unnoticed are good effects feel free to add to it
Just one rule: clarity of motion.
When you say never underestimate your an audience what do you mean? ...if you don't mind me asking
Rule 1 and 3 is the same thing
I feel the bottom line is , action should be clear to thr audience , they should know who hit who , how , and why , where everyone is positioned, and why they're in danger , or have the advantage
@@rasheedknox2140 less is more, we dont need over exposure to things, basically like adding certain shot just to make it clear it happens, a lot of times unnecessary take/shot ruin the flow of the movie, example, after a punch adding a close up of the enemies face than continuing a shot, instead they couldve cut it and continue shooting a fight, we all knw getting punched in the face is painful, no need to add close up shot
The thing with the raid is they dont use shaky cam to hide anything. The action is still very clear and would look great even without shaky imo
Sure. But still: "They complained that the actor hadn't enough power and not enough speed." Well, Jackie Chan was right then. It's said in the video. The cuts helped masking it and although the movie and the fight scenes are wonderful what it lacks it's EXACTLY IMPACT. It doesn't feel it hurts. But certainly the direction helped make it more dynamic to compensate for that.
Not true, there's a lot of moments missed due to the shakiness, it blurs some body parts when it happens.
@@JohnnyLynnLeeYou got it right. The problem people complain about not having enough power because it has lack of choreography, without the camera movement the audience cannot feel the motion and impact watching the same punch or kick being thrown over and over. If people go back look at some of Jackie's fight scene his fights are always interesting it keeps the audience engage.
The Raid 1 and 2 along side the John Wick movies are the best action movies in years.
The John Wick movies suck…
@@Jaxck77dumbass take
Fr John wick movies r my fav
John wick 4 truly has that best long shots + stable camera action of all time
@@Jaxck77 Cool story bro
To be fair, Evans' cinematography isn't actually that different from Jackie's. The camera is shaky, but you can still see punch and hit in the same shot. He cuts, but they add power. The lighting is dark and blue, but the action is still visible. It's impressive how Evans was able to do all that while still maintaining clarity.
Jackie Chan's point was about filmmakers using editing techniques to fake out and sell a tense fight without any "actual" fighting happening, i.e. turning a "1-on-1 fight scene" into an incomprehensible montage of 2-second clips to vaguely approximate the real thing. Chan doesn't shy from editing fights himself, but highlights and elevates the fighting skills of the actors and the fight itself. Little as possible editing in 1v1 fights, and a bit more in the scenes with 3 or more participants as those tend to be more a compositional thing. And if I recall correctly, Raid movies did exactly that but on a higher production level. So if anything, they've affirmed and expanded on Jackie's idea of creating a fight scene.
Timo Tjahjanto took martial arts brutality to a whole different level with "The night comes for us" and "Headshot", him and Gareth evans is the Godfathers of brutal action films.
Yeah, those movies are also amazing. It really hits home how brutal the fights are when the heroes are an absolute wreck at the end of a fight. Like in Headshot where Iko's forearms are covered in bruises after he fights the guy with the telescoping baton. Or in Night Comes for Us where Joe Taslim catches a utlitily knife with his teeth (after it pierces his cheek!)
@@fattiger6957 I like that in Raid, Night comes for us and headshot the protagonists has experience and god level in martial arts but always in the end fight they're almost dead.
Should check Scott Adkins interview with Evans, Evans himself said that Jackie Chan's films are his reference on making movies, he even put Jackie's movies in the background while he wrote the script for The Raid
Loved the pronunciation of Swansea, made it sound like an exotic place
Nowadays, Pencak Silat is gaining popularity in the western world. Proud of you, Iko and friends (Cecep AR, Yayan R, etc. including Gareth E), you made our Pencak Silat more worldwide. Alhamdulillah 🤲
Jackie Chan's was right, he commented it based on hollywood film that time. The successful of Ong Bak is actually the first one that starting to change the industry worldwide.
Just because camera nowadays can capture much better motion with excellent focus and superhuman dynamic range, doesnt mean old school Jackie was wrong, no. He was limited by the technology of his age, when we had much heavier, complex camera, which need lots of lightning, bad focus, short dynamic.,... Watch Foreigners, Jackie still fight very well with fast camera work. Both THe Raid movies keep the same basic fundamentals of action, clear shot, audience can see everything, the motion was fluid. Gareth didnt go aggainst Jackie, he improved Jackie, which prove his masterful understanding in action VIDEOGRAPHY, while Jackie was more of a choregrapher.
I have to get this off my chest and say that the prison fight and hammer girl on train sequences were the best action I had ever seen at the time and rewinded them both at least 3 times. That's all.
I've watched so much of these in slo-mo. I kept stopping the movie just to rewatch what I just watched. I should have just done a single run-through and then watched a second time in slo-mo.
Never heard of Evans, but I am definitely looking forward to watching these movies as a break from my exams!
Only watch them if you've got a strong stomach. Some of the visuals are rather intense.
People : you are too soft Evans and Uwais: alright, violence it is
Garreth Evans is amazing. Gangs of London is also a masterpiece of his.
Raid 2 really made me realise Raid 1 could be topped. Wouldn't have believed it if I didn't see it
One of the key things is that in the case of the Raid films, none of the camera techniques are used to mask any sort of lack of skill. Iko Uwais is incredibly skilled at what he does, and so is everyone else performing the fight scenes. So there is no need for anything to confuse or mislead the viewer. All of the camera techniques can be used to enhance rather than alter what's actually happening on set.
Side note: who ever is doing your audio mixing is gifted at what they are doing because not only are you audible and clear but the music you have in the background is perfectly mixed and balanced making this feel very cinematic
Back in England? He was never in England. He lived in Indonesia and Wales. He recently made a film in Swansea.
What part of the map is wales?
@@emptyblank099a your ignorance is vast. Try googling.
Jackie's best films are so visually clean and engineered flawlessly. The raid movies were poetic chaos. Both styles were sensory overload in the best way.
The raid is just the embodiment of chaos. No plot. No small talk. No bull crap. Just pure chaos .... Very satisfying
@@bowonetpreneur894 I would acully like to see him make a movie with an amazing plot.
@@pse2020 the night comes for us
It feels like the actors have so much more room, like the environment is part of it all and sets a tone. The camera feels the momentum.
Loved those movies. They really get your adrenaline pumping, I remember having to cool down a bit after the first one. Never new the backstory or realized why they feel like they do. Thanks for your insights!
I was almost unaware of the Raid movies and Im definitely gonna watch them this week. That's the great thing about your channel, I get to know about so many new or otherwise less popular films.
Hope you enjoy them!
Do you aware of John Wick movies?
less popular my ass did you live under a rock?
Also check out The Night Comes for Us and the TV series called Gangs of London.
@@thanosal-titanCome on, nikka.
In Jackie's defense, most fight scenes with shakey camera, dark lighting, and too much cuts between movements are just really confusing to watch sometimes.
Great essay! Thanks for your efforts and insight - I've subbed and look forward to enjoying more of your work
Jackie is referencing old movies way before digital film making and CGI! So we have to understand his reference point here.
Kinda crazy how long ago I was there for Havoc. I stand by that what we saw looked incredible (the choreography seen here was invented for the documentary, but we did watch a lot of work from the film) and I cannot wait to see it when it is ready. Gareth is a very generous figure, and we enjoyed our time with the team.
You only get away with breaking the rules when you understand the rules you're breaking. Jackie and Gareth both understand the rules.
Newer filmmakers are unlocking the full potential of the camera, overcoming the limitations faced by their predecessors who worked with heavy, less mobile equipment. In "The Brothers Sun," a contemporary TV show, a drone shot skillfully maneuvered between kicks, providing a dynamic perspective. Gareth Evans, in particular, demonstrated the art of maintaining focus throughout action sequences, contrasting with less adept directors who resort to rapid, disjointed edits, exemplified by the infamous fence-jumping scene in "Taken 3."
I disagree that the tempo of cuts in The Raid necessarily opposes what Every Frame A Painting or Jackie Chan had said. The cuts *are* faster, but so is the action itself. A four-second scene might still show four complete attacks, which certainly isn't the same as the "throw punch"-cut-"see punch connect" approach.
I think you misunderstood what Jackie Chan meant with moving the camera, as his context is about movies back them where a lot of action shot very tight shots with long lenses with on purpose added camera shakes where really is hiding bad fight choreography. Though Jacky Chan movies also does have camera movement that follows the action more often just pan or tilts, it is often filmed on sticks and only a few operators in Hong Kong who are strong enough to haul a Arriflex around handheld. Gareth Evans is using wide angle lenses still keep relative wide framing that follows movement, but a major difference is the technology that made it possible for Evans use small digital camera instead of a large film camera, but also to do longer take fight scenes with a lot more camera movements, as his camera noticeable use wireless follow focus which made focussing much easier when the camera has to move around so much.
I'm always super happy to see coverage about this. The Raid 1 and 2 are hands down my favourite martial arts films. Iko Uwais is a genuinely lightning-in-a-bottle talent, and I'm always looking out for his next project. I really hope he can get better work than what he's been seeing these past few years. More of The Night Comes for Us than the goofy superhero show Netflix did. XD
Oh, and HEADSHOT. I almost forgot. What a freaking fantastic movie!!!
Yeah, Iko is amazing. I'm always looking out for new projects from him. And yeah, his Netflix show sucked despite having a great cast. The lack of brutality in the fights was a huge letdown after seeing his other work and a show like Warrior that gets super bloody and brutal at times. Iko seems to play a side character in a lot of his movies, particularly his American movies. Hopefully he gets more leading roles. I think the guy is actually a really great actor with a lot of range, rather than just a stoic action man. In Headshot he got to show off a more emotionally vulnerable side (while still having amazing fight scenes)
@@fattiger6957 Couldn't agree more. I actually think Headshot is my favourite movie of his for that reason. It was such an effective story for being "just a martial arts" flick.
at the other hand, we had Joe Taslim having real good cast and showcasing his talent in several big movie like FF6, Mortal Kombat, and The Swordsman, Also yayan ruhian(mad dogs) and cecep arif rahman(the assassin) cameo on John wick 4. I really glad the raid cast have flourishing career after Raid projects *edit : change “good” to “big” movie since “good” is personal preference
@@raxanne Yes! You're so right. I can't wait to watch Warrior. I saw Joe was on the latest season and about squeed. He was an incredible Sub-Zero, even if that movie was pretty meh.
In the Raid, the camera movements follows the hits and expand upon them. That's not chaos, it's not shitty patch-jobs - or as we say in French "cache-misères" - to hide the shittyness of the fight choreography. In fact it's extremely logical and purposeful.
Absolutely brilliant analysis, thank you for your work and for sharing your expertise! This is my first visit, and subbing before the video is enough completed!
Love both films sooo much especially cause it so awesome seeing artists form different cultures working together to make art. Also Evens has said in his instagram that he is not interested in making the raid 3 but want to make a project in indonesia again 🇮🇩🏴
Shaky cam looks horrible to me. Might be nice as a effect here and there but I find it so much easier to go back and watch Chan's classic for a reason.
Even in a fighting context, the choreography of this film feels like a dance.
My problem with his style is that I really get dizzy with too much camera shake. is a health issue. not very strong but with too much I start feeling ill. I'm also a big fan of fighting games since very little and more steady and ''soft'' fights make me feel like I'm watching tekken. Or when I praticed karate. I like crazy action but sometimes is just too much.
I still have not watched either of The Raid films, save for a few scenes. This made me really want to experience it finally. Don't know why I've been putting it off for so long, but now is the time! Thank you!
great video! and now you've made me wanna rewatch raid series again.
In Chan's era, the ANALOG FILM era, you simply could not move those giant cameras like is being done by the Welshman. What Chan said in that interview was 100% correct FOR THE ERA.
so true..different era, different styles… just cant compared both side by side..
That's an amazing title, sir Edit: Holy shit awesome video. This is the perfect followup to Every Frame A Painting's masterful video!
To be fair, Jackie Chan did say “don’t completely copy me, you should copy a little bit of me and then more create yourself, that becoming your way”
Loved the video man, thank you!
Had no idea about the back-stories behind "Raid" and "Raid 2". Awesome video. I too, hope there's a "Raid 3".
Compare the Raid to those other movies and you will see they are more close to Jackie Chan style.
great now I have to watch the raid and the raid 2 again! Love it, thanks for this amazing video
Yo loved this video. Huge fan of both these movies and now this video makes me appreciate them more.
I think an even better contrast would be the director lau kar leung Jackie even disagreed with him in drunken master and argued that a bit more faster cuts would suit it better (which is really in contrast to what he did in his previous films) Anyway lau kar leungs made movies like the 8 diagram pole fighter and 36th chamber of shaolin. So yeah you can see that absolute stable camera where you can see in a shot everyone involved in the right and there are very very few cuts. He was a pioneer in this regard. I think this was exactly like that nunchuk fight in John wick 4. I think that's the pinnacle of a lau kar leung type scene except in today's era. I have always avoided the Raid films cause of this. I have hated shaky cam and even though the right scenes look good It just doesn't look right. It is rough to my eyes not seeing 2 people fighting each other in the same shot in the same wide lens way. Maybe I will watch them someday. But I have always thought...would the Raid have looked even better if it had followed the similar way? I get the appeal of the shaky cam and all but the fighters being skilled is what makes the fight scenes not the shaky cam. Unlike the typical lau kar leung fight scene where even if the fight isn't super fast the clarity in itself is still gorgeous Do watch the pole duel from the 8 diagram pole fighter and the 3 sectional staff fight from 36th chamber. One is focuses on speed and the other on fluidity and clarity, cutting only to show the close ups of the weapons so that you can actually "see". Also pretty good character building through a fight. And so back to that question. Considering the skills of the actors involved, is it that the raid looks good DESPITE the shaky cam? And Would a 3rd raid look better with just pure skill and lau kar leung type directing?
> Considering the skills of the actors involved, is it that the raid looks good DESPITE the shaky cam? You have a good point there.
Totally agree! Classic Hong Kong movies are still the best in terms of pure skill and beauty of the martial arts! Also Gordon Liu is one of the best martial artists ever and almost everything he does becomes a masterpiece!
it sounds to me like they took way more inspiration from those stickman fighting flash animations of the 2000s than from jackie., like biting elbows did
Raid 2 is just fantastic, the fight with the girl with the hammer and dude with the baseball bat is insanely tense and beautifully choreographed
Nice analysis, well produced. Thank you for sharing. : )
What an amazing and inspiring story! Thanks a bunch!
commented and liked cuz you shoutout Every Frame a Painting....truly the OG
how i miss every frame a painting
What happened..?
I love the first raid film, but The Raid 2 is a contender for the best action film I've ever seen. 10 years later, only Mad Max: Fury Road, Mission Impossible 6: Fallout, Top Gun Maverick and John Wick 4 I feel compared favourably to it. And The Raid 2 only had a budget of $4.5 Million
it began with merantau movie (first iko uwais movie) and its an action movie too, then gareth evans took the potential about it and make it more perfect action movie.
These are my absolute favourite films of all time and the films which got me into studying cinema as a whole, what Evans does in these movies is chaotic shaky camera movement which stops and becomes stable to show you the impacts/violence as clearly as possible, which is the opposite of most shaky cam which is intended to hide the violence. There are very few movies in history which achieve what Evans does in these, the only others I can think of are John Wick 3, Chocolate, and The Night Comes For Us. It makes me infinitely sad that there wasn't a third Raid movie, I don't care that it wouldn't make sense story-wise, I just wanted more of Evans, Iko, and Yayan orchestrating and performing this beautifully unique style of fight scene.
You've clearly put a lot of effort into this video and it's well thought out but I'm not sure that the scenes you showed from the Raid movies are actually breaking Jackie Chan's rules. Although shaky cam is used, the shots are still much longer than you'd find in Marvel movies (one of the biggest culprits of using quick cuts to hide the martial inexperience of their actors) so that you can still see and take in the action that's unfolding. For example, the elbows being shown at 7:23 are consecutive, fast strikes but it's the same shot throughout without any cut aways. In a modern Hollywood action scene, they likely would have cut at the impact of each elbow strike with an close up of the guy's reaction. The shots would have gone back and forth from face to elbow in an attempt to show dynamism but would likely just disorient the audience I think in the end, they're achieving similar results just with different techniques. Chan used static, wide camera shots to show the audience the entire sequence whereas Evans found a way to move the camera to reflect and enhance the action without losing the audience. So in other words, they're both striving for and achieving clarity and impact, just with their own unique style. Chan's criticism was for quick cuts and dark lighting specifically done with the intention of masking the actors lack of skill; I don't think that means he thinks that all quick cuts and dark lighting are bad. All in all, a great video!
Funny thing about using Marvel movies as an example for what Jackie considers "bad" habits in filming action: they _also_ use a ton of previs to prep their action. They did it two ways: same as Gareth did here (the stunt guys and/or actors choreographing the action _and_ the camera work beforehand in a gym) as well as doing it in a computer for the more fantastic, CGI-heavy action (e.g. the Thanos vs Dr. Strange battle in Infinity War).
12:50 haha i would watch that. a previs movie version, just to see what it might look like. Thank you for the video and now i have 2 more movies to go watch
Love Gareth Evans work. Recently watching his tv series "Gangs of London" and yeah,that's a gr8 series.
One thing is, while Gareth Evans somehow proving that shaky cams works great, it didn't really disprove the essence of what Jackie has said: "when the actors can't really fight, hollywood directors tend to hide it with shaky cams, dark lighting, and forcefully edit the hit so it would look good, but in reality makes it bad". Gareth Evans works with martial art trained people, they really know how to fight, and how to show a great fight. shaky cams work if it was to show the point of view of a bystander, and quick POV change works as long as it was not used to hide the 'bad coreography'. The reason Jackie edits and direct the coreography that way is because he was a trained chinese opera artist, he knows what best on stage, and adapts it on the movie. Gareth evans knows how modern film , practical effects, special effects, and how to put it together, but even he can't do it well without 1 crucial ingredients: actors that can really fight.
I know that you've pointed this out in the video, but in the case of Evans, the shaky cam and the cuts are not meant to cover up the flaws in the martial arts, and blown takes. The takes are tight and continuous (generally), the movement of the camera is there to provide a sense of momentum to the fight, recreating the gaze of a spectator, focusing on particularly brutal moment, and shifting focus to keep up with the pace. The camera in the Raid movies where in a Jackie Chan film, the camera is never behind the action, an no moment of the choreography is not captured, the same cannot be said with Evans' work where there is often off-screen action barely captured to focus on more brutal or spectacular aspects of the fight, then coming back to a choreography already in motion. The fights never seem to end through the movement of the camera. As you showed in the limited sequences of Merantau, the action slows as he shifts targets, the momentum is lost in the wider shots and the empty space on screen. I would say that's one thing that also never happens in Jackie Chan movies, the action takes up the whole screen, has a tight focus on the action, which also creates its own sense of momentum. Both cameras are treated as an observer, where in Jackie Chan's world, all eyes is on Chan and his talent, the choreograpy and the visual storytelling. In Evans' movies, the focus is on the spectacle of the action, the brutality rather than the action. One is more like watching a dance recital, where the other one is like watching a street fight, both are impressive in their own way, but neither lacks actual ability. It's not about covering up inadequacies which is what Chan's criticisms of shaky cam and quick cuts is all about...more like what you'd see in the Taken films. Evans didn't prove Chan wrong, the criticism is just not really applicable to the style that Evans employed...something that Chan probably didn't expect based on his experience with that type of camera work. As stunt crews become more proficient, and directors like Evans and Stahelski find more success with a western take on Eastern action styles the shaky cams and quick cuts become less and less about covering up flaws and more as a means of moving the action forward.
What's the soundtrack that plays in the very beginning of the video?
Merantau is not mediocre it's got something raw and genuine in it that The Raid movies give up to be the action movies they are. I would hope Evans and Uwais revisit that story after they have more fully culminated as filmmakers and storytellers. Even as it is, it's the one that I come back to. The one that has that lingering special feeling. But before then, and while John Carpenter and Kurt Russell are still around, maybe if we're really good boys and girls we could get Escape from Jakarta, or maybe even a Little Trouble in Big China. Who else would we want to carry that torch for a while?
Now I need to watch these films again. They're just some of the best action films ever made, and I got that itch now, after watching your very enjoyable video. Thank you, sir!
The raid has no plot, no talking, just pure chaos... I love it
Excellent analysis. Really enjoyed watcing this.
Wonderful video. That kitchen fight towards the end of The Raid II utterly blew me away. It's my favorite fight scene of all time.
The soundtracks are so good. Mike shonida from Linkin Park and a collab with Chino Moreno from Deftones
I did not know this story, thank you for sharing.
I think the big difference with the Raid movies is the cutting and moving camera isn't hiding anything, it's putting the viewer in the middle of the fight
I utterly loved this vid. Thanks so much!
The funny thing about The Raid movies is that Gareth Evans never explained how Jakarta can snow in the second film.
The raid series is absolutely fantastic. Subbed!
I'll never like a shakey shot. I'll never like a shot where the lighting doesn't show what's going on.
I think it comes down to the talent of the fighters in the scene. Jackie Chans' method doesnt work with people that can't fight and who are unathletic and unskilled at art of movie fighting and stunt fighting. The techniques Jackie doesn't like are to cover up what he says ....but when done with a competent fighters it works. But honestly I hate that shakey cam crap too....but the The Raid series does it the best
Truly well made video!
multiple thoughts, first is that this guy did something to how anime does their scenes. since you have limited motion with animation you have to change perspective, zoom in and out, amongst many creative ways to emphasize impact. makes sense if you have less resources like not having jackie chan acting or directing and not having the ability to retry a scene til it’s done perfect, you’d have do this. second the perfect blend is finding ways to incorporate both styles in your film and i think john wick has mostly done this. one great thing about john wick is that each movie almost has a goal, part one was how realistic can the portray a super hit man, 3 was how creative can they get with the kills, and 4 was how creative can they get with how the scenes are shot. awesome evolution lastly everything jackie said is wrong with modern action is how i feel about american godzilla films, too dark, lots of cutaways. idk how you make a monster fight not look silly but as i get older i come to appreciate men in monster suits doing wwe stuff like the old japanese films more and more lol
The Raid is one of the few perfect Action movies, for a action movie in the genre. The problem with western action movies, is that after the Bourne Legacy got such a big ass acclaim the issue is that the action scenes were copied from that. Tons of jump cuts, lots and lots of jump cuts, so many damn jump cuts you could cut yourself to death. The issue is that people keep using Jump Cuts w/o any thought or purpose, it's like shoot a gun and you're just spray and praying. The thing about the Raid is that it does use jump cuts, and shaky camera. But it does it in a way that allows the action to breathe. A good example of this IRL would be Windshield Wipers, the First iteration of Windshield wipers did their job, however they would move too fast and interfere with the eyes trying to keep track of the road and cause issues seeing. The best iteration was the "intermittent wipers" where it pauses slightly. This keeps the eyes from getting interfered with. The same thing is in the Raid, the jump cuts don't rapidly cut like American Action, where it's literally even damn second, you can see that in any american movie save for a few, and it's just rapid jump cuts w/o letting the eyes rest and acknowledge WTF is going on. The Raid Allows the action to play for a few seconds letting us "rest" then jumps. That's the beauty of it, letting it "rest" you need to keep the action flowing and going, but you also need to keep just enough of the action going through, kinda like how you would do an action before changing to another action. Or else you get janky editing and issues. Look at why John Wick is so successful. Longer shots, longer scenes of action, jump cuts that allow the action to breathe and let the viewer see it actually. People love the action when you can actually see it, the same thing is in Asian Martial Art movies, you get to see the DAMN action. Jackie chan likes repeating the same action after one action is done ( Kick the opponent, JUMP cut, Opponent is flying, Jackie's still in shot showing his kick ) Bruce lee with his unique shot profile, he likes showing he he's surrounded by enemies, then close up shots of himself, then back to the action, then showing the effects of action through single shot of the enemy getting hurt. Then showing the emotions of both fighters Bruce and the Enemy through single shots. that's the beauty of action, that's what action should be, fluid, in action, in movement, letting it linger, showing the mechanics of the action, letting the brain fill in the gaps and connect it. Action should never be just random jump cuts, NEVER implementing Fake action is terrible and makes the scene and fight just all around a bore/chore to even watch through.
I don't think these films contradict what Jackie Chan says. Jackie's point is only that filmmakers shouldn't HIDE the fighting and choreography through deceptive camera tricks
he didnt say you cant ,he said thats how most do it to help hide that the actors may not be real fighters
@4:45 Calling Swansea ("Swanzee") Swan-zayah sounds so sophisticated! 😂
How the fuck I get back to this channel again after two years 😂 BTW your video essays are getting better over time
i still remember the now marvel standard " rotate the camera with the punched so hard guy". it was epic!
When Jackie discusses dimly lit scenes, shaky cam, and erratic cuts, it's all connected to the filmmaker's strategy of concealing the actors' lack of martial arts skills. A skilled director and cinematographer can craft scenes that are visually dark while still clearly showcasing the actors if they have the skill to show off. Claims that Jackie is wrong or The Raid is the best martial arts film are clickbait. Every Frame highlights Jackie's more challenging filming style with impressive results. Despite liking The Raid, I found the second too close to torture porn. Jackie still holds the record for some of the best martial arts films.
awesome stuff!
The raid has its camera so clear even though it feels active and frenetic it never makes the action unclear.