How to Set a Fence Post WITHOUT CONCRETE?! - Fence Pro Reacts
Today we're looking at a pretty hot take when it comes to setting fence posts. We're reacting to a no concrete fence post install. The video claims that this post is stronger and will last LONGER - we'll see if that's true or not. Let's dig into it!
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Set up a split rail fence 48 years ago with no concrete, just dirt from the hole. Used a 2x4 to pack it. The frost line in Upstate NY is 4'. It has been deeper. Post were not set below the frost line. Weather in this neck of the woods goes from one extreme to the other. No pressure treated lumber back then. Up until recently fence remained intact and looked nearly as good as the day I put it in. Speeding vehicle took it out a couple weeks ago.
My dad installed 400 feet of fence 36 years ago, dirt and gravel compacted... still holding. Quebec, Canada.
Good to know, I appreciate you sharing your experience!
In the rainy Pacific Northwest with lots of clay soil I use just plain gravel, sometimes topped with a couple inches of concrete sloping away from the post. Full concrete tends to hold the water in all winter long, rotting the post.
My dad moved to a S. TEXAS 31 acre hobby ranch/farm in 1972 after I finished 1st grade. Soil was mainly sand with a small % of darker soils (called sandy loam), but 95% sand. Dad would exclusively use fragrent cedar/juniper for posts (almost none straight) to depth of 3.0 feet deep & 4.0 feet deep for corners & pull points for tension wire fencing & just tamp the sand back in with a 1"×3" wood stick, 1/3rd depth, then 2/3rd depth, etc. until filled. Never rigid until rain settled the sand later. Dad discovered a tamping method that immediately made the post vibrate like a cartoon post that the wild coyote ran into. The method: Cracked #2 grade rock (leftover from new septic system drain lines.) Metal bar tamper, 2.5 inch × 3/8" thick round plate welded 1 end & other end 1.25" hex. Bar weight approx. 20 lbs. Dig hole to above stated depth, place & align post, pour the rocks surrounding the post to the bottom 1/3rd, metal tamp with 2.5" wide end, flip the tamper to small end & tamp hard! More rocks to 2/3rd, metal tamp w/large end, then small end. Fill rocks to ground level (g.l.) double tamp final time. Rocks settle slightly below g.l.. cover rocks with sand. Conclusion: cracked, angular rocks are wedges that dig into the post & ground, locking the post instantly, No waiting for stuff to dry. Rounded "river" rocks do Not work well! The heavy metal tamper with wide & narrow ends is the other key ingredient. Hope this is helpful to someone. Paul from S. Central Tx..
Our neighbor told us to avoid concrete for the fence because in his 40+ years of being a home owner he saw no benefits but absolutely hated when it was time to pull that concrete out. I am sure that the fact that we are in California where it doesn't rain much (at least not usually, right now is an exception) plays a role.
Having just moved a fence line, this the only reason I can think of to not use concrete. Do you think I'd be okay without concrete for a short 3-4ft tall garden fence?
My father has been installing fence for 42 years. We have never used cement for wood posts unless the customer requests it (we never recommend it). It will rot the post from the bottom up. We just tamp the soil down will a bar. Simple as. I've replaced stockade fence from 26 years ago that is still standing well from my fathers work. (long island)
Interesting, I appreciate you sharing your experience!
So... Let's examine this big brained logic. The wet dirt under the concrete-encased post will rot the post out faster because it's in contact with said wet dirt, BUT a post that is in complete contact with wet dirt will not rot out... Are you high?
I'm planning to install a replacement fence for a wooden(PT) fence that I'm taking down now. As I remove the posts, some just snap at, or just below the ground level. Some posts that came out looked quite good. This fence has been up for over 20 years! None of the posts were set in concrete, just our heavy clay-based soil. Some posts were in so tight that I could not pull them up and had to chainsaw the post a few inches below grade after digging around the post, then just filling-over the stump. I plan to replace with 2"x4"x6' ground contact PT as posts, along with flexible polypro web straps as the "boards." The posts will be painted white with a barn/fence paint. Now, I'm wondering if also using some asphalt driveway sealer on the buried section would be a good idea? Not sure about adding gravel in the bottom of the holes; wasn't any originally.
I've set many posts in Pennsylvania clay soil, and have fixed old fencing for people, including a 400' run. 30 year posts definitely exist. In that 400' job I assessed each post, only 8 needed replacement. They were set in compacted small aggregate, rock chips interestingly enough. I set the replacements in dry pack. I also developed a cheat, by the way. A way to straighten a tilted post without digging it out, or prying/pulling it, none of that lol in case someone was on an extreme budget. I'm watching this video (great video btw) because I'm about to set several new posts in compacted New Jersey sandy soil. Drainage is excellent here, water table 11 feet down and it's not very unusual for posts to be set directly around here. BTW I'll be using a 6" post hole digger, 30" embedment and they'll form an arc in layout. It'll be a very strong install.
Nice video thanks for making it. You both have shallow frost depth but as you said depends on location. Where I live frost depth is 6-8 feet thou most times its 8 feet. So sonotubes or piles must be minimum 9 feet.
Looks like he's in Australia which is somewhat similar conditions to where I am (NZ), I'd say 15-20 years max lasting time (if it's out of wind), and by that point rot would get it first. This is a legit post setting style and was commonly done for fences, even house piles, where I am. But these days definitely use concrete and seal the post with paint/clear treatment/bitumen paint where it'll be in contact with ground to get the most life out of it. Costs more but you'll get more life out of it. He's not completely wrong but just won't last as long. As for the level, I say it's his tools so he can do what he wants with it lol
😂 in Australia we don't have a frost depth...😂😂
Hi. I'm just renewing an old cedar fence that is T&G with 6" PT posts. I've had issues with 2 of the 5 posts as they're a bit wobbly. Once I removed them, I saw there's no concrete on these 2...but maybe all of them. The fence was done in 1996, so it's now been 27 years. The posts are fine, and I was really surprised. What kind of PT was there in New England at that time, it wasn't creosote? I'm treating the bottom of the posts before I set them with quick-set cement.
We have a pole garage builder has crushed rock around post for drainage. But how would that hold it firm?
I worked on my wife's cousins property maybe 18 years ago and built a small sections of fence down his driveway . well 18 years later he wanted a small concrete slab to keep his trashcan on. I removed a small sections of fence and the post was still in good shape after 18 years in the ground with gravel.
I live in S. California and have redwood fence on 2 sides of our property. What I've found works for me is to apply an asphalt based fence post paint from the base to about 1ft above the soil line. Posts I've installed with this method (in concrete) have lasted 10yrs+. Posts that were installed with no treatment in concrete lasted about 5yrs and had to be replaced.
My 4x4 mailbox post has been in the ground since 1973... It looks brand new... I paint it with regular house pant every 4-5 years...
Depends a bit on what define as redwood. Giant sequoia is too weak where as coastal red is amazing. Both dense and resilient. Western red cedar is amazing for sidings but hopeless in ground contact if regularly damp. Most commercial redwoods are pine which if treated are okay but not brilliant. Douglas fir is better but doesn't pressure treat well. Larch is one of the best softwood species if available. As for hemlock. Dig the hole then threw the post away. It rots as fast as western red cedar. Acacia is possibly the best available timber for posts and is often the first choice for the European wine growers.
Hello Joe! I have a post set in concrete some 30 years ago. I need a post somewhere else. Can I use the post that I already have, if I manage to take it out of the soil? Can I use the dry concrete on the new spot or should I take the dry concrete off and set it in new concrete? The post is a 2 inch steel tube. Thank you!
Joe, what do you think of using gravel instead of concrete?
in florida i set posts in sandy soil. lasted 25 years- pt was better back then?it was very easy to remove old posts an put in new fence .new without cement lime rock around top. i see alot of fence blown over and hard to straighten with concrete.
I had a fence that had concrete around all the posts and during a storm all the posts snapped at the top of the concrete. I rebuilt with new posts and no concrete and haven't had any problems yet. 2 years and counting. 👍 Also, most wood telephone poles are installed without concrete and they stay in place for decades.
Good to know, I appreciate you sharing your experience!
"for decades"....good!
do you realize how deep telephone poles are lol
@@jordan3405 yes, most are set 4-6 feet deep.
@@chris76-01 so you can see why they wouldn't move, and the posts are saturated with creosote
Do you have any videos or advice on what to do if you run into water at about 2 ft.
Am I the only one who digs the holes wider towards the bottom? I learned to do it this way to reduce the chance of it pushing upward due to frost and to help water absorbing into the soil run away from the post. I have never seen anybody ever suggest this in a video. When I lived up north, any old posts I pulled looked like cones of concrete on the bottom. Now, down south, I see cylinders of concrete... and I'm sure that's fine but I still tend to do wider bottoms when setting posts anyway just for the sake of extra strength during tropical storms.
Michigan we do 36+6 (the +6 is for the footing under the post, post itself only goes down the 36)
Hello Joe - we are having a concrete trash pad built and are required to “fence in” the trash bins by HOA. It will be 4 feet tall in “L” shape. What can we use to anchor the fence into cement pad? We can only find Strong-Tie anchors but they are not recommended for fences. Thanks for your very informative videos.
I’d have a fence company weld up some steel posts, preferably postmasters but you can use round posts with wood to steel adapters, to flat plates and anchor them to the concrete pad. I’ve seen folks use the strong ties and not have great results with them.
What my grand dad use to use was crushed rock around pole, and pack it. We had to change a couple of gate poles that were about 80 years old. They were not rotted just wore out, the wood. I have been using this method for 30-40 years now.never had any rotted issues. Try it sometime
What type of Crushed rock? 3/4inch?
I want to install a 50' long fence that's 4' high. We just built a new deck and didn't bury the posts because that is no longer the code. Can I inatall my fence posts the same as I did the deck posts?
I have several 4”x4”x6’ posts set without cement for my 6’ high flat panel wood fence back 2000 in MA, posts are still doing well but fence panels rotted so replaced.
Nice! I appreciate you sharing your experience!
In Florida it is the ground cover like leaves and branches that rot the post , Florida is a sandbox over limestone. You need to keep the base of the post clean, but dont need concrete.
My 4x4 mailbox post is not set in concrete... It was hit twice in the last 13 years and did not break... When I reset the loose post after it was hit, I cut long wooden wedges from a 2x4 and drove them into the ground next to the post... I pushed the post back to level with the wedges... The wedges hold the post upright like a vise...
Joe we actually debate this often with some customers. Especially ag fence. We have removed a lot of privacy fence out with no concrete on them. 20+ years old! I don't agree nor recommend this practice but there is an argument to be had!
I recently removed posts from my yard that were set without concrete. not sure how old they were because we just bought the house a year ago, but the posts all broke off within the first 6 inches of soil where they rotted away. Just pushing on them caused them to crack and snap off
I think the quality and treatment of the post has a lot to do with this. Posts today just aren’t the same as posts of the past.
@@JoeEverest it may not have moved side to side but I guarantee it would pull straight out...
Agreed! They don't make them like they use to. We have a replacement in a neighborhood next week that is notorious for not having concrete. Homeowner says he had the fence installed 18 years ago. If so I'll make a video and tag you to see how it held up!
You cannot set posts with concrete in some areas of Canada. Due to the frost line being 7ft deep it will pop the concrete out like a pimple. Quarter down will hold the post, if it does shift up you can set it back down. Posts set this way can last 10, 20+ years. Concrete in shallower frost lines concrete is a great solution. A 10’ post will be 4’ in the ground to make a 6’.
I spray leakseal on my post where it makes contact with the ground and/or cement, let it dry before concrete.
He is using an untreated Cyprus Pine post, common in Oz, 15 years in well drained soil if you're luck,
Grew up on a farm with miles of fence for grazing cattle. Tamped in posts with the dirt from the hole. Anything else would been cost prohibitive. A lot of work, but the fences last decades.
Putting a post up on sloping ground and pack with cement of any kind, after a good rainy season or two, dirt washes down from the cement. After a few years, at least the downside of the cement becomes exposed. In some conditions enounough could be expose to weaken the stability of the post. How do you fix it?
Hanku Australian man, man dressed in green, for teaching me how to put in posts in Australian conditions, I will be following your advice tomorrow.
I did a deck like this before , it worked great, not sure if it works well with fences however
Appreciate you weighing in!
Hi Joe. What are your thoughts on using a crushed stone aggregate in place of concrete? It can be tamped very well and water drains away from the posts as well as keeping the post out of direct contact with the dirt. Another thought I had, I've seen some people recommend painting on a roofing tar or liquid waterproofing around the bottom.of the post, before setting post in concrete. Any thoughts on this technique?
I have been fencing for a long time and crushed limestone works well. The wind load is the questionable part. After time it will move. It helps if the post is in the ground 36+ inches.
Fence builder here, I've tried the crushed limestone method as an experiment to see how sturdy they were vs. dry packed concrete. I tamped them very, very thoroughly. Hung my small daughter's hammock on it and it did NOT do well. Also have tried the 2 part foam product out and it's not as sturdy as concrete either. I do like the idea of the waterproof coating and/or post protecting product. I'm gonna check those out. But importantly, the area of the world you're in makes a big difference. I'm in the south with no frost line to worry about.
@@tyjones5019 I built a bridge in my woods to span a boggy section where my tractor got stuck several times. I set the old, salvaged round posts 12" down on top of a concrete patio paver. Then, backfilled the hole with our heavy clay soil. That soil packed down like the post Was in concrete! I've driven my tractor over the bridge many times towing a heavily loaded cart, as well. The bridge is still up and hasn't moved the slightest amount. I'm in the south, too.
the crushed stone aggregate 1 to 2 inches tampered is the best way to go and roofing tar you have a lifetime fence pole.
Pops used gravel only in heavy wet soil 20 years later fence is strong
Good to know, I appreciate you sharing!
Pulling out an old cedar fence that is at least 30 years old starting tomorrow. It's in pretty bad shape, but for all I know it could be 40 yo. I'm eager to see how they did the posts. Hopefully no concrete so I can pull them easier! I'm putting in some English style concrete posts though with no concrete. I'll have to pour myself since nobody sells those in Colorado that I'm aware of.
Nice! Best of luck with the project!
@@JoeEverest Thanks! Posts were very rotted at ground level. No concrete, so far!
Is Australian, talking for Australian conditions, Thanku Joe, but I will trust the Australian guy first.
Been slowing replacing the posts on an old split rail system that’s failing. Not using concrete with new posts, a little sand at the bottom and packing the hell out of it. They are solid. The cement from the failed posts is a bitch to get out. Takes me forever and kills me lol Hate cement
I appreciate you watching and sharing your process!
I am about to tackle my fence project, from this video, I learned what not to do.
Always happy to help!
How deep in the ground should be the post?
30” or 6” deeper than the frost line, whichever is more.
@@JoeEverest thank you.
This is what I would do. I’m a pretty crafty guy I would go get me a drill auger and I would auger it probably 4 inches probably five I go all the way down a Hardpac slide add some stone try to bring it down as far as you can go slide the post in
After using his level to compact just ruining the level, totally agree joe Use tamping bar not a level
Agreed, use the correct tool for the job!
Now, a fat chick with small feet jumping up & down in the hole will beat a tamping bar any day!😅
Yeah...like you, I am calling bs on the 30 year wood post lol. Mainly because after watching this guy install fence, it's quite obvious he hasn't been installing for 30 years lol. On a side note, I cut my teeth on 3 rail ranch fencing for the state of Texas. Miles and miles along side fm roads. We started out using sac-crete, went to portland/ sand/ gravel and eventually ended up using pea gravel. The pea gravel works really well BUT I would NEVER use it on anything with a wind load. One windy day and that fence will be bouncing around in the holes lol
Agreed, 5-10 years would probably still be generous
Grew in some marshlands, concrete tends to bring in the rot quicker when the ground is soppy.
How about foam Crete or whatever they call it. You mix two things and pour it down around the post, it fills all voids.
$$$
Can't I just cement the corners & gate posts & only dirt fill the line posts?
That's pretty much the equivalent of using t-posts in between wood posts for wire fencing.
metal posts, concrete, end of story. I could rip that post right out of the ground LOL.
IMHO if you put the post in the proper depth, concrete is not necessary. If you put an 8' post only 2' deep, you'll need an anchor, but why????? Just put it in at least 3' and use the dirt from the hole to pack the post. I installed a board fence in CT in 1977 and just packed it with dirt, and I know when I left the state in '98 it was still looking great!
They used better wood preservative back then, I remember landscape timbers lasting a long time, but now after 4 years I had some rot out, never use them anymore.
I use a baseball bat to compact my dirt. Comes with a handle for easy grip. 🏏
Love it!
Wanna know what i think of this post settijng technique? - i think it's garbage and will result in wonky fences. In areas with frequent rain, that soil is not going to provide enough stability over time on a 6 foot fence. To stop post rot paint the whole length in the ground and couple of inches above in thick bitumen paint - here in UK I use black jack.
our soil in Raleigh, NC is clay, not loam, much harder to dig into clay. digging by hand here is difficult.
Completely agree, I lived in Cary for around 12 years!
WOW, we were almost neighbors. We have been here since 1979 . My son has a fence that is leaning and the post is bent like a BOW. I am 75 years old and he thinks I am incapable of fixing this problem, however, I disagree. I bought a farm jack, chain and a gasoline auger (which probably was a waste of money :-(.....) My grandfather was a pole setter for the telephone company in the 1920s) He taught me to tamp the dirt around the pole until you had to go elsewhere to get more dirt to finish the job. He never used concrete, just a long skinny tamping bar. Am I on the right track here? Where do you live now?
Wood choice and soil type has everything to do with this. It’s not all the same. Fast draining acid (sand) soils will rot far more slowly than sweet clay soils rich in organics
He forgot to mention the 4’ level is to compact the post .. 😰😅
I'm Australian and this is not how things are done here.
Good to know!
Australian fence post setting recipe -- 5 parts kangaroo dung + 2 parts sand + 1 part stale beer; mix well & pour. No rot, no bugs, & sets like a rock. (oh, but the smell!)
@@standupnow-bo3lr Dont give away the secrets!
Wow, compacting soil with a level. WTF dude lol. BTW when I set my posts directly, my holes will be straight down and a little over 6". The reason is bigger hole, more to compact, first of all. Unnecessary effort but also, the smaller the compaction area, the smaller the compaction tool's end surface area. Same amount of force to compact but with a smaller area means tighter compaction.
do not use cement it holds water at the top more succefully than any dirt or clay would that is the downfall. If you set it deep enough than youre all good but not if youre tamping with a level you really need to pound that sand
i live in alaska frost depth..8'3" min lol
21 inches is a joke for fence post , and you can not pack very well mis using a level. The root / rock bar has a round end on it that is for packing around the post effectively.
Absolutely agree, thanks for watching and weighing in!
Seems like a lot of extra work doing it this way ...aswell .....
that's probably a 10 year post at most. especially if it's going to have a lot of wind on it
Agreed!
A G clamp is not a vice...
Why not good old fashioned tar instead of Postsaver?
My main reason is because tar doesn’t come with a warranty.
I'd be looking to get some of my money back if this fella was building my fence. Although if you watch he didn't even put any pressure on the level when he was "tamping" the dirt.... props to him for confidence
Agreed!
The level can also be used as a straight edge not just a level 💀 but u already kno that
Fair point!
Honestly the level on my phone (free app) is just as accurate as almost any level I've tested it against. Prove me wrong... I'm hanging pictures and fencing so how accurate does it need to be and my phone level works just fine.
He puts cement becaiuse its fine grain....9:40
USE THE PACKING LEVER 100%
😂
The only I see in this video was the orange Color 😂😂
😂 fair
Seen a guy using a level as a pry bar😢😢😢
😳😳😳
Yeah, I know that guy! He's the same one who forgot to open his garage door before backing his truck out.
He probably uses micrometers as clamps.
A square does not have a diameter 3:00.
Fair point, should have said the width of the post. Apologize for the confusion.
I have proof concrete is bad for wood post. So the proof I have is in my back yard. It is a concrete post holder thing for a laundry line. Obviously there is a rotten hunk of wood post at the bottom of the hole. You make concrete with water. So this guy can explain it away .
All that is proof of is you needing to buy a dryer.
Yeah, digging it up is not gonna help now you gotta pack it back in I don’t see this
I fell asleep seen this guy digging that hole
Does this actually qualify as a “how to” anything? Dig a hole somehow, put the post in the hole to the required depth for your region, plumb said post whilst putting some type of material in and around it. See, piece of cake. Lol
😂😂😂 fair point
Nope!
Agreed, thanks for watching!
My level also doubles as a sledge hammer, speak for yourself buddy !
boooooo.... that's a no no..... hahaha
First again 👌😉🇮🇪
Legend!
It will not last 30 years with dirt around it..
Never trust a older Asian in construction there is a reason why all the buildings in India are crumbling
I have never laughed so much at somebody who thinks he is giving an educational tutorial 🤣😂
😂😂😂
Concrete is alkaline not acidic
Oh how about the plastic boot that goes up above ground a foot. Round shovel, round hole. ;) Layered powdered concrete. Maybe it sucks the moisture out. But if it rains. The water will seep down an wet the concrete against the wood. Where did he go to school? I will stay away from his idea.
Man in orange, your commentary is boring. I want to hear what the man in green has to say.