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"I've only put 300 hours into Street Fighter 6"
@spidersonic0110Ай бұрын
“Newbie Hours” 😵
@DavidAKJohnsonАй бұрын
Rookie Numbers Did anyone get that reference?
@TerryTheOne-WingedBogardАй бұрын
Its not much tbh, ive got 700 in sf6 and 200 in tekken8 and im not a streamer or pro
@heroicsquirrel3195Ай бұрын
It's a LOT for people that have lives families
@brandongoree5911Ай бұрын
Bro I haven't even owned the game for 300 hours my God
@cosmogangАй бұрын
It's an endless cycle. Once the honeymoon period ends for some people, then they start arguing about old vs new fighting games.
@ShaunInce123Ай бұрын
Every time. The new game is the best thing ever for the first month or two, then it absolutely sucks and the previous game that we spent the last two or three years of it's lifespan complaining about is, all of a sudden, so much better because people choose to forget all the jank that was in the previous game at this same point in it's life.
@melvinshine9841Ай бұрын
There’s a lot of people who’s primary engagement with games is arguing online. If there’s no drama they get bored and create their own. How to “fix” the game is way more interesting to them than actually playing.
@ryanwhaley5041Ай бұрын
Facts
@xxdarkkillerxx5343Ай бұрын
Literally mortal kombat when tekken came out.
@massgunner4152Ай бұрын
"B-But THIS TIME its actually true!"
@DedAlexFiveАй бұрын
I look forward to ten years from now where we're discussing this topic yet again, lol.
@runbaa9285Ай бұрын
Ironically, if we skip forward 10 years, we’ll have missed the 3 other talks about this topic.
@nevvawinter7331Ай бұрын
Ten Years?! just wait until tomorrow
@2445aceАй бұрын
Wait till SF6's season 2 and Tekken 8's major tournament
@khalduras784Ай бұрын
You know how many times I read "these new games suck not like Street fighter 4" man I never thought I'd live to see ppl bring up SF4 as a positive
@mrblackhouseprezАй бұрын
"Come back in ten years!"
@TheCrewExpendableАй бұрын
It's wild hearing people complaining about Street Fighter 6 being too offensive focused, because I remember when Street Fighter 4 came out everyone was complaining about it being too defensive focused.
@ThorgisArcadeАй бұрын
I'll take offensive focused over defensive focused.
@seanmcbayАй бұрын
I remember feeling like the game was spam heavy online. All I saw was Camy, o maybe a Ryu. And it was justfireball wars, or canon drill.
@ajshiro3957Ай бұрын
Slow Fighter 4 was the popular term then.
@HillthugstaАй бұрын
@@seanmcbayDepends on how the offense is. Tekken 8 gets a bit overbearing with 50-60%+ combos and spam for something that focuses on having cool stuff like sidesteps, KBD, low parry, hop kick, etc. as options, but not like T7's turtling and poking was fun either. SF6 is nice because parry is just as strong for keeping turns as it is for taking back and can result in really fast or really slow matches and leaving it up to the players and their styles. Something like samsho is really fun with it being intended to be slow and with its theme'ing. Guilty gear xrd at least in terms of offense is nice but it punishes in dumb ways like negative penalty even though it has chip damage, which just makes a rich get richer when playing against new and low level players which will then just spam when defending instead of learning when to hit. Tag fighters are really cool with offense mixing and matching teams to make the best offense and defense with characters you like.
@muckdriverАй бұрын
Players often do not know what they want. And while I'm usually bad a offensive games, I heavily prefer a game that wants to engage you than one where you're just sitting around waiting for something to happen. The most optimal way to play in past games where to either find a character who easily breaks defense or play ultra defensively, just waiting for your opponent to get impatient. And that drove me up a wall. It's wild to me that these people are complaining about offense when they were complaining about how defensive these games used to be. All of a sudden, SFV is good, the same SFV they were complaining to hell and back about being too defensive.
@ManganizationАй бұрын
Dood; we are on Old Game Vs New Game 10 at this point lol
@pockystyx4087Ай бұрын
Nah, more like old game vs new game 15. 😂
@Meldrick-jv7syАй бұрын
Make it technically Old Game vs New Game 20.
@memesandhoi2924Ай бұрын
Call of Duty literally every year.
@NeightrixPrimeАй бұрын
Hyper Arcade edition
@detectiveq994Ай бұрын
I think we already passed Old Game vs New Game part 10 years ago and now we're at part 20. Soon we will get part 21 when Akuma + major balance patch released and then continue with part 22 when Garou 2 or Project L released.
@thepuppetmaster9284Ай бұрын
SF6 is light years ahead of what we got at launch for 3, 4 and 5.
@returningwhisperАй бұрын
Yea but the gameplay isn’t fun
@Shodan130Ай бұрын
People said the same about 3, 4 and 5 as well lol @Shodan130
@xOmniCloudxАй бұрын
@@xOmniCloudx yea and 5 wasn’t fun either, and isn’t fun, 4 however I like
@Shodan130Ай бұрын
@Shodan130 you missed the point entirely...
@xOmniCloudxАй бұрын
@@xOmniCloudx nah I get the point, as products sf 6 is miles ahead contentwise…. But I’d rather shit in my hands and clap than play sf over ST lmao
@Shodan130Ай бұрын
I remember when MvC3 was also the “New game bad” at the time, good times.
@Void_OutАй бұрын
I think mvc3 was redeemed by having extremely deep and unique characters. sf6 is making an effort back in that direction, but sf5 was literally just "here's the poke you do into v trigger and then you do a free mixup" and there was just nothing else to learn
@shaolinotterАй бұрын
@@shaolinotter Maybe, but not many really gave it the time of day until UMvC3. Which kind of furthers Max’s point about how it’s not until the later versions of some games that people really like them and talk about for years later. SF 3, 4, 5 Tekken 7 GG Xrd FighterZ Etc.
@Void_OutАй бұрын
Even MvC2 went through a 'baby game' period because it removed 2 attack buttons
@guitaroachАй бұрын
100% this. I remember the hype for MvC3 coming out and then when it did, it wasn't the most well received. It was that baby version of MvC2 with easy execution, insane damage and a comeback mechanic that made people feel comebacks had no merit or skill anymore, like when people think back to Justin Wong's cyclops 1v3 comeback. The game was busted with the DLC glitch, people did not like how strong Wesker felt for how easy he was, and ultimately, everybody rolled their eyes when a dark phoenix appeared. Then people complained a lot because UMvC3 came out not even 12 months after MvC3, and I knew a good few people who refused to buy the next version because they felt like they were getting ripped off, especially when the netcode still wasn't rollback. Ultimately, every time a new iteration of a franchise comes out, there is going to be some resistance- some unwarranted, but definitely some very warranted too. This will happen with every 'generation' of fighting games and fighting game players.
@PrimeKeroHSАй бұрын
Yeah I mean UMVC3 and MVC3 compared to MVC2 was piss easy. Comebacks were pretty common due to X factor so it makes sense that people playing marvel 2 for a decade and a bit would complain
@sean2848Ай бұрын
"Fighting game developers will make a game, it will turn into something that they were not ready for. You get it into the hands of 10,000 people, 100,000, a million people, and all of a sudden, people are just doing things that you are not ready for." Couldn't explain it any better for MORTAL KOMBAT 1.
@LEWfromdaHOUАй бұрын
This sort of discourse is just part of the circle of life in fighting games. Whenever the time comes and a Street Fighter 7 or Tekken 9 drops, people will reminisce about how the previous title was better, conveniently forgetting the many grievances that were prevalent in the early meta.
@odd_cup_of_coffeeАй бұрын
Same thing with favorite characters getting slight kit tweaks or new moves
@roderickreynolds2366Ай бұрын
@@roderickreynolds2366 But Kuma has had hammer punches since Tekken 2 so this mishima fist crap is a travesty.
@StarRain6Ай бұрын
It ain't just fighting games. Heck, it ain't just games as well. Anything that was successful and got a sequel, will go through this exact process or something very similar. People love to complain, that's all there is to it.
@Ryu_MakkuroАй бұрын
@@Ryu_Makkuro exactly. Look at the star wars prequels. Those movies were hated by virtually everyone for YEARS, and now most modern star wars fans would say those are their favorite movies in the franchise. The past is always looked at through rose tinted glasses, and that applies doubly for previous FG installments.
@moistman3110Ай бұрын
It'll be totally valid by Tekken 9 because Harada and Murray will finally achieve their dreams of making a 2D fighter. I like 2D fighters and I play them but I don't think that's what people come to Tekken for.
@alexandermccalla5098Ай бұрын
People need to hear this, because Mk1 is being treated like it’s the first time in history a game made a misstep. A lot of vanilla games have glaring issues. Mk1 is similar to sfv release but by the end of it regained favor by the end with most. We gotta give it time.
@billyford4836Ай бұрын
I've been saying this for months now! Excellent comment❤
@rockkandyplay5692Ай бұрын
On the flipside, it's the only modern fighting game of the current era to get a Nintendo Switch port. I feel bad for the Switch missing out on Street Fighter 5 and 6, as the series has a history of skipping Nintendo home consoles after Alpha 2 on SNES.
@NewGabeOrderАй бұрын
This is why i really appreciate Max man, this amount of perspective on this take really helps. You're my favorite for a reason man
@thecoolguyman587Ай бұрын
So true
@rockkandyplay5692Ай бұрын
"This game doesn't make me feel the way games did when I was younger, so it must be that the game is bad."
@TheRogueWolfАй бұрын
More often than not I feel like it's a matter of I was really good at the last game that I played for 7000 hours and now I'm not as good at this new game and so I don't like it. Of course some of the things that people say are true and are legitimate but other times they just go way overboard and are like the game is a complete dice roll a new player can beat a pro 50% of the time it's like that's not how it works.
@charliericker274Ай бұрын
Yes because the large amount of 3s players or +R players who have only picked up the game in the past 5 years are doing it purely for nostalgia of a game they never played
@Shodan130Ай бұрын
Or the game just look like shit 💩 I don’t have to spend 700 hours to know if I have fun with a game or if a game looks visually appealing
@davicpetrovski155Ай бұрын
Anyone who says Sf6 is better than SfA2 or USF4 is on crack.
@ScrubermenschАй бұрын
@@Scrubermensch a2 got mogged by EX2+ though let’s be real
@Shodan130Ай бұрын
SF and Tekken players: The games are so much more offensive focused nowadays! KOF players: Welcome to the jungle, little boys.
@FelipeVerdugodaSilvaАй бұрын
13 was peak
@sashalamaАй бұрын
@@sashalama no it wasn't people would have bought it
@mesiahwilliam7334Ай бұрын
lol no one buys kof games 98 and 2002 would be crazy to determine that based off their console sales @@mesiahwilliam7334
@BurnerAccount86753Ай бұрын
@@mesiahwilliam7334the netcode sucked and less people played video games nevermind fighting games back then
@Shodan130Ай бұрын
You are right but I mean as a KOF fighting game, not talking about sales yo hoo hooo and a bottle of rum
@sashalamaАй бұрын
NEW THING BAD OLD THING GOOD the eternal cycle of man
@MoojinBoiАй бұрын
Pretty sure there is evidence that people in the bronze age complained about the invention of writing.
@seb24789Ай бұрын
Tekken 8 is the first fighting game since Tekken 3 that I actually have fun with. It feels very accessible with it´s arcade tutorial and other elements to the point where I got myself a Kitsune and managed to play and learn one single character for 70 hours without getting bored. Even playing ranked (never went online in other fighting games). That´s a first for me with this type of games and I feel like a lot of new players feel the same.
@UmihitoАй бұрын
It really benefits Max having an FGC and Casual perspective when tackling these kinds of topics..
@LordBeMineАй бұрын
I’m too old to care about this type of conversations anymore , especially when people just point to top players “omg X said this game actually sucks”. No way! The guy that makes a career out of this doesn’t like the new game because the systems he used to dominate in the past game aren’t available just as they were before? I feel all the critiques that we should be talking about like questionable monetization, time between patches, etc. is more important with the way fighting games are now. “Back in my day you used to actually fight in the arcade because games were harder” who cares bro?
@Plasmacat1Ай бұрын
This is the correct take. I feel too old for this as well and I'm only 26. I've been following the FGC since MvC3 and I think I've seen enough to know that this is not really a valid discussion. Maybe it's just due to the growth in popularity bringing in new people who have yet to witness and understand this cycle
@TaulantDomiАй бұрын
Facts!
@Meldrick-jv7syАй бұрын
@@TaulantDomi Great observation. It's probably related to monetization of content creation. DooD was the only one I saw like a decade ago even talking about fighting games. People saw him make money off it and then a bunch of other people jumped on, and yeah sure there's a real online FGC content scene now. Been there for awhile. But tbh I don't really know the playerbase is so high, people like watching sure but the actual player numbers are pretty bad especially after initial honeymoon phase, as compared to popular genres like FPS, MOBA etc.
@geraldmoogle8708Ай бұрын
@@TaulantDomi People who point this out get trashed on most professional FGC channels.
@majorlazor5058Ай бұрын
I can't tell what this op comment is saying here
@assassin8636Ай бұрын
Sometimes i forget Max is like 42. He barely looks 30
@NovaGNАй бұрын
Like 32 at the most lol. I hope I look this good at 40
@Sp3llmenАй бұрын
@@Sp3llmenThere's no hope for me. I already look worse at 32
@Rayhaku808Ай бұрын
That's because we play games and stay happy!
@noisyether9211Ай бұрын
This short term memory is not exclusive to the FGC, I can't wait for monster hunter wilds just to hear people complaining about the lack of master rank for the fourth game in a row
@vegancarnotaurus8216Ай бұрын
I remember the worst moment in mh series history which was pre iceborne mh world where every content creator, player and their mothers were tirelessly complaining about lack of endgame and convinced the game would never get a g rank update
@simran789654Ай бұрын
The new game is bad until it becomes the old game
@MEEPdragonАй бұрын
SF6 and T8 are in so much better shape than SF4/5 and T6/7 were at this same point post release
@williampounds5191Ай бұрын
This
@chillnspace777Ай бұрын
Easily. I mostly see “you only beat me because of new mechanics, i’m so much better than you” boomers whining while self reporting that they are too bad to learn new mechancis
@arpadszabo661Ай бұрын
Exactly
@nerooyeye2196Ай бұрын
Don't touch USF4 that's the best one for me
@NatsuD1919Ай бұрын
This is not true and i played 6
@leoatkinson5345Ай бұрын
One thing I've been wondering about lately is why is it that in a current age where plenty of great older games are getting either remasters or fully-fledged remakes, why have we not gotten many Fighting Game remasters or remakes??? Yes there was the very solid Capcom Fighting Collection that released a while back and Virtua Fighter 5 got a remaster as well plus the long-awaited Marvel vs Capcom 2 re-release which unfortunately was only an Arcade 1-Up exclusive but other than those 3, we've not gotten much remasters of other FGs. How come there's never been a compilation collection of all the older Mortal Kombat or Tekken games similar to what Capcom did with Street Fighter 30th Anniversary? Heck we've never even gotten a FG remake period & there are a few older FGs out there that I feel deserve to be remade & improved upon. Just a thought.
@DragonHeart613Ай бұрын
Maybe that’s what the new VF will go for.
@brainofjtdАй бұрын
Because most old games have rollback and with arguably better lobby functionality than a remake would actually have via fightcade. Hell even arcsys has updated their legacy games with rollback The only game that needs a legacy revival is tekken because legacy tekken is Barron compared other franchises
@Shodan130Ай бұрын
They did that a lot in the PS3 era. Take old fighter port it and give it online. They just stopped doing it
@mrblackhouseprezАй бұрын
I think they don't want to fracture their player base. They kinda want everyone playing their new fighting game.
@randomcharacter6501Ай бұрын
@@mrblackhouseprez because fightcade was free and did it better
@Shodan130Ай бұрын
There's good and bad games in every era. some people are blinded by generational bias and ignorance. Don't let nostalgia cloud your judgement.
@OtherBarry4908Ай бұрын
Old games are just inherently different to new games in the way they are designed, it’s not about nostalgia, I would say 95% of people on guilty gear +R or 3rd strike only picked it up in the past 5 years.. wayyy after the game got usurped by a sequel
@Shodan130Ай бұрын
I’m really glad I’m on the “Old game good, new game better” train cuz it allows me to enjoy myself
@CHRIS-XАй бұрын
I think finding fun from old and new comes to differ on what you feel the game than being a oldie hardcore fan to dump the new gen game entirely, it's like the boomer meme again but in FGC levelheads.
@maximizejyleАй бұрын
Honestly to me it really depends on the franchise Like I can fully admit that say, psychonauts 1 is better then 2, but at the same time I can turn around and say that something like gravity rush 2 is WAY better then 1 I don't want people to dogmatically worship one side or the other, I want them to be honest with themselves
@doctordice2doctordice210Ай бұрын
@@doctordice2doctordice210 Honestly I feel from that
@maximizejyleАй бұрын
Yup. Like FGC is eating GOOD recently... Yet so many people still complain over the dumbest things 😭
@shahs1221Ай бұрын
@@shahs1221 people taking the good times they're living in for granted is a story as old as time
@doctordice2doctordice210Ай бұрын
Also T8 is the first iteration that has gone straight to console. Previous versions always had a good few years in arcades which meant they were essentially getting roughly 2 years of testing from the public before hitting consoles.
@joshuadavey8947Ай бұрын
True
@nerooyeye2196Ай бұрын
T7 was in arcade for 2 years before console?
@majorlazor5058Ай бұрын
@majorlazor5058 yes. I'm surprised you didn't know
@nerooyeye2196Ай бұрын
@@nerooyeye2196 you don’t even know me 🤣😂🤣. I never had a PS4 and I don’t go to arcades often. There barely are any. Haven’t seen Tekken in an arcade since Tag 2.
@majorlazor5058Ай бұрын
@@majorlazor5058 😂😂aight. I just thought that most people were aware of it
@nerooyeye2196Ай бұрын
Whining and gatekeeping never ends with the FGC It just gets louder
@DOSFrostАй бұрын
Exactly
@LEWfromdaHOUАй бұрын
Pretty much
@rockkandyplay5692Ай бұрын
I wish we could get it to stop. It makes it hard for me to get my friends into Soulcalibur because of this.
@IamaPERSONАй бұрын
You gotta appreciate the amount of effort these spam bots put into their comments
@TerryTheOne-WingedBogardАй бұрын
Nah we dont
@KariocaAFCPАй бұрын
For real bots out here spitting some poetry lmao.
@anonymousnate678Ай бұрын
Who created and is utilizing said bot swarm?
@heathmcrigsbyАй бұрын
@@KariocaAFCP yea we don’t.
@TerryTheOne-WingedBogardАй бұрын
Hoping someone will make an "adblocker" but for spam bots on all platforms
@spentparch4067Ай бұрын
Idk if I’ve ever watched a KZhead video that ends with a to be continued and felt hyped af for part 2 until now
@P0liFGCАй бұрын
Dood, Max is so needed. Thank ypu for this vid
@j.d.prophecy43Ай бұрын
I can, fully believe, that we're doing this again. If only for the fact that fighting games are individually played for so long, so many years, that new people come in and have zero idea how the old ones are played, and the vets have been with the older games for so long, it's hard to not have a bias to said old game if they've already stuck with it, and it's nigh impossible to not be perceived to have a bias towards it by others anyway. It's a losing argument, because neither side is approaching it in good faith or sufficient knowledge.... it eventually comes around to "like the thing that I like, or PERISH". If that's not what you're thinking, that's what the other side is assuming of you anyway... because, as the clip, and podcast with Chris T and Ryan Hart explained, for as mentally solid you need to be to grapple with the depth of these games in order to compete at a high level..... there's a lot of brainless bums that give the FGC a bad name by treating this like a high school clique. Drama is for bitches, simply, do, better.
@ggbhtgАй бұрын
Couldn’t agree better! The FGC is a community that just likes to be so extra. I have a few problems with modern FG’s but I still adjust to the new game mechanics and just hope that it won’t get to brained downed.
@calleocho2107Ай бұрын
"Neither side"? More often than not, it's the public veterans who are usually making arguments that are not in good faith. But what annoys me more about this is that Capcom already let it known that changes are coming yet these players are making a big stink over nothing.
@ManganizationАй бұрын
But thats the whole purpose of fighting games to trash talk and build adrenaline, ultimately the point of a fighting game is literally to kill each other.
@StarRain6Ай бұрын
Its not wrong to enjoy complex and harder games. I hate these mind numbing modern games. I seriously do not know how ppl say they are good games. Addicting maybe like any other pvp game, but not good. They need to realize it's over though. I un followed all fgc stuff except Max for now. I didn't buy any fg after strive. In gaming in general I have stopped buying these new aa/AAA games since like 2013. The casualized redundant game dev trend got big during that time.
@XFR18Ай бұрын
Drama isn't always for bitches and it shouldn't be labeled that way
@assassin8636Ай бұрын
Some people in the FGC have purely selective memory and/or can't make up their damn minds about what they want. I don't even play Street Fighter or MK and I remember people complaining about SF5 and MK11 *slowing things down* from the previous entries, but now we have some of those same people saying current entries are too aggressive? Speaking as a Tekken guy, even if we ignore that Tekken 8 in a much better state, right now, than Tekken 7 was at this same point, are we just going to forget about how much Tekken 8 has already changed? You had two Heat Dashes in the early builds, the bullshit Kazuya string in the CNT and the CBT, Claudio's absurd damage in the CBT, changes to combos in Heat, etc. We go through this same damn cycle where the old game is suddenly so much better than the new, when most of the time the new one is a noticeable improvement over the previous game.
@melvinshine9841Ай бұрын
Haha it's the new FG cycle. Newest game sucks! Previous game was great! Rinse and repeat ad infinitum.
@geraldmoogle8708Ай бұрын
People are gonna People. Until the End of Time.
@yourchildrensghost9736Ай бұрын
It's funny that for how objectively these games are focused on offense, it's also the most I've enjoyed defense too. Drive Impact/Perfect Parry, Deflect Shield, most string enders being minus on block, etc.
@gamelord12Ай бұрын
One of the best takes I’ve heard on the topic 🔥
@Jaded.1Ай бұрын
Funny enough I was just watching Max's 2 year old "Cyclops is A God: Month of Marvel" video...and then he posts this on KZhead 😁
@BrothaBeige88Ай бұрын
I think the reason why people are looking at older fighting games is because they feel that new games invalidate old playstyles. SF4 is a good example of promoting a multitude of playstyles and moment to moment decisions. For every justin wong and snake eyes patiently waiting for thier mortgage to be paid off, there is koji kog turning his arcade stick so hard he falls out of his seat. The important part is that its the players decision not the games. Also why do people think that its going to continue for the same reason they were made in the first place. Its not for the benefit of the people who enjoy the game or for its health. Its made for the people who watch it. Which is profoundly bizzare and unique to digital content.
@EstussoupАй бұрын
"The McDonald's french fry level...." is a quote I havent used enough in my life 😅😅😅😅😅
@megaboxxxАй бұрын
So that's why Tong kept making jokes about old games being more difficult and legit during the 1v1 marvel 3 tournament ...
@cynical_perks8725Ай бұрын
Street Fighter 6 has World Tour. That alone is worth at least a reason to buy the game. And, since it's Capcom, it gave me flashback vibes of both Street Fighter Alpha 3 and Rival Schools (the japanese version had a Daily Life/School Sim Mode).
@VBrancoPTАй бұрын
Man, you can't just drop to be continued and call it a day, I'm invested!
@NepururinАй бұрын
Oh boy a two parter?!?! Definitely a good take on everything that is happening. I applaud you taking the time to discuss this. I'm sick of all the hate (again much of it warranted) for what I'm experiencing and considering as a pretty fun time in my existence. Having T8 vanilla is so fun and volatile
@Pwnr145Ай бұрын
Max, you are a priceless gem. Just came here to say this.
@cosmogangАй бұрын
Always a pleasure to listen to Max reflections
@kaiko70Ай бұрын
This is a fantastic video! Great to have this perspective, I think it's important to acknowledge we're still in v1. Thanks Max!
@mookjongАй бұрын
I have always loved fighting games from an extremely casual POV. Since I was a kid. I was never gonna "git gud" as they say. But I love the game and learn to hold my own. My favorite fighters of all time are MvC2 and Darkstalkers 3. And MvC2 is ALWAYS gonna be loved by the community for it's roster alone. But it has aged, and not in all good ways. Despite that, we all still love it and it's meta as it is. That said... SF6 is the first fighter I've played since that REALLY grabbed me. In the end, everyone's gonna like these games for different reasons... they're all great. For their own reasons. Being a part of a major tournament or not is moot. The communities exist for all of them. That's what it's about.
@JonnicomАй бұрын
Agree with Max. These vanilla versions of SF6 and Tekken 8 are way ahead of where the old vanilla games were. They almost feel as polished as the latest versions of the previous games.
@DragonthornXАй бұрын
who gonna tell him that Tekken 7 last iteration is arguably worse than it was at launch lmao.
@Shodan130Ай бұрын
Let's go with MK3 vanilla for example, that wasn't a great version of the game then we got UMK3 then Trilogy. Not the most balanced at all but dammit, were they fun
@truindividualАй бұрын
He makes perfect sense. People act like the old games were the best but everyone forgets vanilla games. People also act like old fighting games were king, no they weren’t. They were some of the most broken games.
@martin99110Ай бұрын
Evo 2023 taught me that non broken games don’t exist. The main selling point of new games was balance yet there was 6 mirror match grand finals
@Shodan130Ай бұрын
New games are still broken constantly.
@seanmcbayАй бұрын
@@Shodan130 low tier high tier dichotomies will always exist (plus capcom's money being a toxic element as it encouraged people to play top tiers which had both negative and postive effects on the meta) But there's a difference between the low tier high tiers of 6 compared to 3, where the low tiers just straight we're missing essentials every character should have and the high tiers were these well rounded characters who had an absurd strength that would really exist in an extremist specialized character Hell for all of its hate crimes, 4 without yun and Elena was fairly well balanced, there are characters who straight up feel that they're playing with half a kit but the majority were competently playable Same can be said if season 5 sf5 before Luke came in and ruin it for everyone Tl/dr: perfect balance is a meme, the game not being 100% balanced doesn't mean that it has bad balance
@doctordice2doctordice210Ай бұрын
@@doctordice2doctordice210 yea for sure, but when t7 gets WORSE balance Over time and patches rather than better. Capcoms financial based balancing (which namco does way worse if you look at tekken and dbfz) and arcsys huffing glue in the dev room. I don’t think it’s that compelling of a reason. Like sure 3s has bad balance, but games like tekken 5DR, sf4 and the like have decent balance, arguably better than what we are seeing now
@Shodan130Ай бұрын
@@Shodan130 I disagree SF6 doesn’t have any characters like Seth on released in SF4. Like it was mentioned in the video, no one remembers vanilla SF4. Seth had so many nerfs. He had moves removed out of his kit. He even had interactions removed from his kit. Like being unable to use his ult if his fireball was on the screen.
@martin99110Ай бұрын
I only spend 10 minutes on Twitter each day instead of scrolling for hours. I feel more refreshed than distressed that I didn't know there was another FGC discourse.
@isumairu25Ай бұрын
Thanks for the shoutout! Wish I had actually made that meme and not just spread it around though. Credit to whoever did make it, it was damn clever.
@tz_toast_riderАй бұрын
this nonsense with the fgc has been going on since sf4/t6 days...now don´t get me wrong the whole battle pass and in-game shop stuff is wack (but ultimately don´t affect the gameplay in any way)...one day it´s the greatest fighting game of all time and the next day it´s the worst and a couple years later it´s the greatest again...I feel like people just reach their current ceiling and immediately start whining about characters being broken
@ScientologyHunter2Ай бұрын
I love his this conversation will always crop up every few years. I remember when I started in '09 on Vanilla SFIV and it was so frequent to see "09'er" used in an extremely derogatory manner, talking about how anybody starting in '09 was only playing fighting games due to how companies had made them drastically easier for the younger noobs to even grasp how to play the genre. Now here we are in 2024, and no doubt there are a lot of '09ers around that have said or thought similar things. It's just like in real life when you hear an older adult compare their times to yours, and how yours are drastically easier, or whatnot. The cycle will never end that's for sure. And naturally as I'm an '09er, SFIV for life >: )
@PrimeKeroHSАй бұрын
this is prevalent in all of gaming. people posting about " i wish we can get a decent game like we used to." or" can i get a game without dlc and actually complete" or other dumb shit. there are SO many fantastic games coming out. people are way too nostalgic and way too picky. its infuriating. the type of people who say" theres nothing to play" who probably only play fortnite and cod are the worst.
@PlayPodOGАй бұрын
I think what annoys me the most, is when people say a newer game is bad, and then act like the older games that they love are practically flawless. It happens so much with beloved games, like Lego Star Wars or Kingdom Hearts. Or Sonic. Even though in some of the beloved games in those series, I have a number of problems with. And you'll just get some funny looks if you either criticize and/or express distaste in more beloved games or if you just prefer the newer game to the older one. Newer games can have their fair share of issues too, and people are welcome to dislike them and criticize them. But its a disingenuous double-standard when they just act like older games didn't have their problems too. It's not everyone, but when it does happen, it's irritating.
@DADA-yt1ptАй бұрын
Oh boi here we go… again
@mrcwillis6970Ай бұрын
The FGC will never grow with these petty ass arguments.
@Lumi-OF-ModelАй бұрын
Seriously, do we have to do this EVERY time a new game comes out?
@spidersonic0110Ай бұрын
This is a spambot, and it got more likes than the original comment
@zynux8252Ай бұрын
IWC just beat y'all to it
@RGF91Ай бұрын
@@zynux8252it freaks me out that they talk so normal now
@calleocho2107Ай бұрын
They aren't necessarily petty, they have to do with what makes the game enjoyable for many people, and if there are legit criticisms to be had, then it is worrying to people the direction that the game can go. And with how successful the new ones have been, comes the risk that the devs will be more complacent about fine-tuning the gameplay, compared to games like SF3 where the failure of it is what pushed them to change it into something better
@deddrz2549Ай бұрын
This is what happens when you all you want is for every game to be MvC 😂
@1meen1Ай бұрын
Damn your good bro... solid solid take. This is why we love you max!
@christopherpease8998Ай бұрын
Damn i looked and clicked so fasg because i thought this was gonna be a mvc2 is back on stores announcement 😂.
@GenerallDRKАй бұрын
Have we learned nothing from 3th strike 😟?
@fakeusers2Ай бұрын
Unironcally? Sf2 players were smugly pulling the same "THIS GAME RUINED SF's DEPTH" bs EVEN 3rd strike wasn't safe
@doctordice2doctordice210Ай бұрын
You gotta appreciate Max for all his Hard Work😎
@hgsqu33zyАй бұрын
that is some top tier thumbnail lmao
@BurgerSliderManАй бұрын
"coming down to 50/50 situations, now you have to guess all the time." said it all right there
@TFPDiceАй бұрын
Wish Max talked more MK1 in this video...
@princeofcrimeАй бұрын
Just give me Capcom vs SNK 3 please... With updated 2D and the same amount of character slots
@OldNudyАй бұрын
OMG, watching SFIV Ken whif a shoryuken just to be safe against Abel's MP almost made me spit-take!
@DavidH373Ай бұрын
As an old FG fogie myself, I am in 100% agreement with Max. FG devs NEVER get “it” right on the first go around. Especially Capcom lol. And it’s not just FG devs either. Do y’all remember the dumpster fire that was vanilla Diablo 3? People are just impatient and have no idea how good they’re eating nowadays.
@TMNTfeverАй бұрын
One thing is for sure, there will never be another marvel vs capcom game.
@Kat1kafkaАй бұрын
Let me hope man
@GuyWithZen459Ай бұрын
@@GuyWithZen459No. It’s dead lol
@bulb9970Ай бұрын
@@bulb9970 we thought the same about fatal fury bro
@barpos97Ай бұрын
At this rate, marvel could use the money
@PrinnyDusstАй бұрын
Capcom has all the resources to create another successful Versus game with their IPs. At this point, they should just make Capcom All Stars
@PathFinder1490Ай бұрын
I feel like twitter is too toxic sometimes, especially in the FGC space. A random salt tweet can become discourse for a game that's only 3 months old.
@chrishipop5Ай бұрын
Yeah, toxic as hell After looking at the statistics, I just said "SF6 is indeed very balanced" after one game and someone complained and my account was blocked.
@computervision557Ай бұрын
That logo in the thumbnail is chef's kiss 🙂👄🤌🫴
@emperormegaman3856Ай бұрын
As Max mentions, when Street Fighter 4 first came out, there was a LOT of discourse over not just it, but people who got into fighting games with SF4. The term "09-ers" got thrown around a ton, and it was NOT a friendly nickname. A similar thing happened with Marvel vs Capcom 3 when compared to MvC2, where the term "11-ers" came about a little.
@SpanishFly120Ай бұрын
people dont have to agree. but people also need to elaborate more on why they hate certain things other than screaming "IT SUCKS".
@Counselor-yj8hkАй бұрын
Because the games are designed in a fundamentally different way, old games are simple, very straight forward while new games have more complexity and feels diluted. Lacking in the strong fundamental core. You can play tekken tag 1, ST, kof 98 and get how it’s played and how to consistently win in 5 minutes, but your barrier to get there is fundamentals and execution. New games have so much going on that you are constantly fearing 50 different ways to instantly lose the game or some gimmick you didn’t lab. I like simple games, and simple FG’s don’t exist anymore
@Shodan130Ай бұрын
@@Shodan130 The games have evolved. You're just old and can't keep up.
@Sammy_X7Ай бұрын
@Shodan130 what you said was an oxymoron. Dilution removes any and almost all complexity. To dilute is to strip away to its base compound. So these recent games are so divoid of complexity that they are stripped down versions and streamlined compare to their older iteration. Or they are so complex that they are completely unrecognizable from their simpler iteration. It can't be both.
@SleepingBookАй бұрын
@@Sammy_X7 I can keep up well enough to win my local and get paid. But as you said I’m old which is true. Locals pay out worse now than they did 10 years ago. So why play a game I don’t find fun like sf6 when I can play something I find fun like ST ? Playing a game you don’t like to fit in with the Fgc is mental illness
@Shodan130Ай бұрын
@@SleepingBook what I mean is diluted from its fundamental core, sf2hf is very much a game laser focused on neutral, same with a game like tag 1, tag 1 is a game that’s 100% focused on movement based neutral. Compared to their newer games sf6 and tekken 8 that focus on the fundamentals of the game is diluted with boatloads of more mechanics and systems. These mechanics and systems make the game more complex but also makes it less focused on one particular thing like old games would be, hence what I mean by diluted
@Shodan130Ай бұрын
Definitely an eye opening topic.. Can't wait for ya part 2 video..
@DanKen139Ай бұрын
As someone who's been playing fighting games since the 80's, the thing about most fighting games back in those days was that when we played them. We played them only amongst our friends who would come over and play with us or we go to the Arcade and played other people but when you play in the Arcade. You didn't really have the know how about how to do special moves and combos because you put in your 25 cents or your 50 cents and you played the game and if you lose you either play again and again until you run out of your allowance and take your long walk home of shame. As the years went by we started having tournaments which then made the game accessible. This was more around the Street Fighter 3 era. I loved Street Fighter 3 New Gen when I first saw it in a shop that had Arcade games and I was the only one who really played it. 2nd Impact came out and more people played it. I mained Sean in that version and I knew combos because I read EGM magazines. EGM was the only way you get to learn about these games and all the cheat codes etc. Then there were Gamefan magazines as well that gave you tips on strategies but not everyone bought those Magazines unless they were hardcore fans. Some people had 12 month subscriptions coming into the mail. When 3rd Strike came out no one really wanted to play it until the Evo moment of Justin Won vs Daigo. People were mostly playing Street Fighter Alpha and Marvel vs Superheroes and then MVC 1. I didn't even know tournaments was being held for the game, it was a girl from elementary school who showed me the video and that moment, I said yo, I got learn how to play this game but the game was hard to find. I didn't get it until the SF anniversary edition came out and it was a good port for the PS2. Thing is now why new players are good at fighting games is because they have a lot of resources to learn how to play the game compared to back in the day. Back then we only had EGM and Gamefan and Gamepro magazines. Now players got the internet, Gamefaqs, KZhead, and a whole set of tournament videos to watch and learn and lets not forget they have practice mode and online play to further train. Old games didn't have these things. So I don't believe games were harder back then, there just wasn't many resources for players to learn back then. Nowadays those same new players are getting good at older fighting games over on Fightcade because they have the resources now to learn and the people to help them practice and compete with and there is also practice mode implemented through modding the roms for Fightcade. Anyway sorry for the long ass comment. I don't think fighting games right now are getting easier either. SF6 is draining because there is so much to keep up with during matches. Only thing easier about SF6 is modern controls but most people using MC's have the same strategy in my experience because they just wanna exploit quick executions. Modern Controls not really that new though. These controls scheme been in SF Alpha and Marvel/X-men vs Capcom games since the beginning I believe. I also remember playing SNK games and to me those games were a bit harder because of the motions for super moves.
@beetosan2910Ай бұрын
I didn't play sfiv ranked, the first game i started to play ranked was sfv and got to platinum, then my friend got me into Tekken 7 and I got to red ranks I think (just below Tekken Ruler or Tekken king idk it's not very high), but I came back to street fighter when 6 was released and I love it more than any other fighting game I've played, the combos are fun and easy to do, yet the skill expression is still present I feel like people just get salty cause they lose to somebody who started playing sf6 as his first game and is beating them and they are like "yea you got carried by the game, if we were playing sf4 or sf5 I'd smoke you", same thing happened in sf5 and probably even in sf4, people get salty cause they put a lot of hours into a game that ceases to exist and then get beat by players that don't even know if previous releases existed
@ireallydontknow6709Ай бұрын
Idk if max will say it in the next video, but the reason more newer players are getting good nowadays is because fighting games lately are more accessible. It can be cause games are easier, they offer more tools to help players learn, or the fact people can get coaching or look up combo vids. Its not a bad thing at all
@MURDOCDXАй бұрын
Definitely not a bad thing. FGC players will call these games scrubby though.
@LEWfromdaHOUАй бұрын
"The Player Is Here To 💩 On Your Game...... Not Literally"Preach Brother! Preach!
@KDogg_727Ай бұрын
Max: I’m gonna take you for a ride!
@JdudhhsuxbsksjАй бұрын
I have been a fighting game fan all my life, I wish I had the money for Tekken 8 but atm can't comment as I don't have but SF6 I am in love with the game. I would love a Primal Rage reboot or remaster and Killer Instinct a new game would be great. Tried getting into MK1 but I find my skill issue preventing me enjoying the game, SF6 I feel I can find a level that suits me. I play a lot of other games so don't sit and grind fighting games enough to get to master but I love playing SF6.
@TimeSplitterChimpАй бұрын
Personally I can’t tell if it’s just nostalgia or the way serotonin decreasing with age, but the older fighting games just feel like they have a staying power about them. I support new fighting games and I’ll play them for a few weeks, but then they go up on a shelf, while I fire up SFA3 for the billionth time.
@theAshesofDecember1Ай бұрын
I think it's just what got people into the genre or a game early into their like of FGs. I started FGs near the launch of Strive. My current 'main games' are Strive, KOF XV, SF6, and Tekken 8. I've tried some of the previous entries and other franchises (UMVC3, BBCF, Skullgirls, etc) and I've had a lot of fun, but Strive feels very comfortable and I suspect that it's because that's what got me into FGs when previously I thought I didn't like the genre.
@jordibaizabal5682Ай бұрын
Selective amnesia. First off, you are remembering the classics. Not Time Killers, Criticom, Karnov's Revenge, Agressors of Dark Combat, or any of the metric ton of garbage that came out back then. Those didn't have staying power of any sort. Second, back then, we all were less discerning and more accepting of a game's flaws. Nowadays, we scrutinize games closer and expect more from them.
@mappybc6097Ай бұрын
@@mappybc6097 I think it runs a little deeper than that, after I put some further consideration into it. Like if I really think about it, I feel in love with the alpha series sprite work that went the whole way up to mvc2. I loved the anime design for all of the marvel characters at that time and was enthralled with them the moment COTA dropped. I didn’t even fully understand the mechanics of the crossover games as a kid, not to the degree that I do now. However. The thing that stands out to me as a huge difference is that I knew each character and was passionate about finding out their stories and endings. Odd as it may seem, I feel that most of these games I’ve stopped caring about the characters. The stories have gone on too long and have grown too convoluted. It’s sort of the argument many fans had against MVCI in that, they replaced magneto with some other character that eight-way dashing and so the “function” was the same and it’s like, I don’t care about the function. I care about magneto as a character. I think a lot of that has dropped off for me. Even guilty fear which has always been crazy story-wise has just gotten so ridiculous that you need an encyclopedia attached to the game to know what’s going on and it sort of takes me out of it. So weird as it is to say; I wish fighting games stories were as a good as they used to be. I know the storytelling mechanics have gotten substantially better and deeper with story modes but, I’ll always just miss simple arcade ladders with a three panel ending with cool artwork. And unlockables upon completion a la tekken 3 rather than dlc on EVERYTHING
@theAshesofDecember1Ай бұрын
@theAshesofDecember1 Fair enough. Personally? I found out more about Ryu as a character in SF6 than in the past 35 years of SF lore. It's just delivered in a very unconventional way, which is a shame because anyone who skips World Tour will miss out on some pretty interesting interactions with the characters they love.
@mappybc6097Ай бұрын
@@theAshesofDecember1 I agree with you on not caring about the story anymore. With Street Fighter, it sure didn't help how they kept jumping back and forth in the timeline. I lost track of which game came first in the story.
@omegaweapon116Ай бұрын
Cant wait for "Can't believe we're doing this...AGAIN - REAL TALK: Old Games VS. New Games; Rebirth"
@iainwelch611Ай бұрын
On the kind of non-issue of fighting games being easier now: could we consider that the teaching tools of internet guides, community spaces like Discord servers, player practice spaces, and in game learning resources are better for learning an improving at a game now then they were before? I’m not saying things weren’t lost in the transition into this online era, but as a community of communities between casuals, tournament players, and developers in different games we’ve done a good job at building a space where someone can improve from getting their teeth kicked in, to expressing themselves in competition.
@splish8869Ай бұрын
Here comes Max, with logic and reason, to settle everyone down.
@ShredGamingАй бұрын
Thought for a second this would be about OG FFVII and the new trilogy
@DrCoomer_1Ай бұрын
max is that guy you bump into at a comic book shop that changes ur life forever and then u never see him again
@ebickachow9078Ай бұрын
Can't wait to come back to this topic once Fatal Fury comes out.
@chaosroy2426Ай бұрын
Look, I think what we miss from older games was the engagement to it. We could unlock sick alternate or boss characters and they looked bad ass. I think newer games have better gameplay but when it comes to content the older games like ps2 Era wins
@notoriousmike3307Ай бұрын
Ps2 days were so hype, but I also enjoy newer games as well. I'm hopeless lol😂
@rockkandyplay5692Ай бұрын
@@rockkandyplay5692 no newer games have better gameplay
@notoriousmike3307Ай бұрын
Yet the fgc are the one who complain about having to unlock characters
@MegaDarkness5000Ай бұрын
@MegaDarkness5000 That's what adds Replay value. If they don't like it, then they should just pay extra money to immediately unlock everyone, like KOF XIII did.
@X2011racerАй бұрын
so early i can see the bots
@arko2320Ай бұрын
The tale as old as time 😂
@soulezwan266Ай бұрын
max old hair style vs new hair style
@Khinh-xq6lxАй бұрын
Out of curiousity, why was MK1 no talked about in this video, as I think they are having the same issue that SF6 and T8 are having with their fans
@etl2474Ай бұрын
I'd say because Tekken and SF were more traditional with their gameplay compared to MK. Aside from REALLY basic stuff, MK since 9 has changed drastically between games, any skill from previous titles doesn't really carry over. Basic strings and combos change a lot, property of special moves (like Scorpion's spear in MK11) while some basic stuff on Tekken hasn't changed. And MK1 is getting more flak due to how WB and NRS are handling monetization and how they planned the retention of players which feels more anemic compared to MK11.
@OddballEddieАй бұрын
Yep, all 3 games are having the same issue.
@LEWfromdaHOUАй бұрын
Cause MK actually sucks
@Bkzflyest0823Ай бұрын
@@Bkzflyest0823no
@secondexodus9105Ай бұрын
Why is Max quiet 🤐 on MK1?
@secondexodus9105Ай бұрын
Street Fighter III was released alongside the SFA and SFEX series, so I’d say having three concurrently running series at the same time could not sink a franchise. SFIII by itself without Alpha probably would have done but it didn’t happen that way. SFIII caused no harm to the Alpha series by existing, and the series continued getting new games, evolving into Capcom vs SNK. Although a crossover, they are still practically Street Fighter games.
@MartyndeАй бұрын
The SF3 series bombed so hard they didn’t make a new Street Fighter game for 10yrs.
@M1d32Ай бұрын
@@M1d32 That’s not how it was. A bomb wouldn’t have received an update (2nd Impact) then a true sequel (Third Strike). And I already demonstrated that the Street Fighter series continued during and after SFIII with other games up until the early 2000s, a few years after Third Strike. The correct answer for Street Fighter going on hiatus for years was the market shifting to 3D games, and Capcom’s attempt at a 3D fighter (Capcom Fighting All Stars) was an internal flop that never saw release. That has nothing to do with the quality or reception of SFIII. The PS2 era was a rough time for all fighters and I think Capcom were right to sit it out. And anyway, despite its poor sales, Third Strike is actually a genuinely good game that Max often returns to and speaks highly of. It didn’t “bomb so hard” due to poor quality.
@MartyndeАй бұрын
@@Martynde they tried to salvage it twice leading to no new Street Fighter games in a decade. A franchise that they released spinoffs and new additions to with Street Fighter II like snow dropping from the sky in winter. Very textbook definition of a bomb. Edit: PS2 era was fine with Tekken games, Soul Calibur, Virtua Fighter, Dead or Alive on the Xbox. Even the Mortal Kombat games kept coming out despite their stinker after stinker.
@M1d32Ай бұрын
Absolute facts on everything said
@jakejameslugoАй бұрын
That cliffhanger 😢
@ElJosherАй бұрын
Old games vs New games is always a divisine topic no matter what genre it is. Like someone here said, it's a losing argument.
@thetruej7872Ай бұрын
It's a losing argument because the type of person to go "old thing better" is both ignorant of the past and the future, looking at both through a superficial lens Like a 80's and 90's kids in the 00's weren't listening to plastic beach, fleet foxes, the avalanches, etc they were pretending that Justin Bieber was the only thing the 00's had to offer
@doctordice2doctordice210Ай бұрын
I think that we seem to disregard the transitions in technology. What seems better? A console with no way to fix the bugs, or a console with the ability to download updates? It is a petty topic to me because we have the ability to take lessons learned and make something new.
@MajinErickАй бұрын
@@doctordice2doctordice210id say there less ignorant and more nostalgic they like old things better ussaly because they were young when old thing came out or if not they at a time of there life they kind of miss which is human people miss were they were young and they tend to put things that they enjoyed when they were young on a pedistol
@addex1236Ай бұрын
@@addex1236 see, I Sympathize there but I don't know how that translates to being willfully blind and unfairly reductionist to the present There's a difference between reminiscing of fond times gone by vs treating the word "modern" like it's a shameful slur and taking what you have for granted
@doctordice2doctordice210Ай бұрын
Im honestly sick and tired of the gaming community, not just the FGC. There is ALWAYS something to complain about. Sometimes it's valid like people complaining about MTX and broken releases, but a lot of the time it's just whining to whine. "THIS GUN IS BROKEN REMOVE IT FROM THE GAME, I DON'T LIKE THIS CHARACTER SO THEY SHOULDN'T EXIST, THE GAME DOESN'T PLAY HOW I LIKE SO IT'S BAD, THIS MAP SUCKS REMOVE IT, THIS CHARACTER IS TOO META, THE DEVS DIDN'T ADD A THING I WANTED SO LET'S HARASS THEM, THE GAME DOESN'T TRY NEW THINGS, EW THE GAME IS TRYING NEW THINGS!!!!" it's so tiring. Can't go anywhere on social media without hearing whining about the things I love.
@LanTheArtistАй бұрын
Right now, in all the communities I'm in, I spot complaints about simple things like Eddie Gordo's killmonger cut. It's annoying.
@Naho_3609Ай бұрын
The amount of people who bold face tell me about how much they love street fighter iv, and don't remember themselves bitching endlessly outside of AI and WNF about how terrible SFIV is with it's invulnerable wakeups and link problems while I was there... is startling to me.
@ZaidTabaniАй бұрын
It’s like when max brings up that one fighting game thats dead can’t even think of the name rn 😂
@mexicanakumaАй бұрын
Homogenization thing ends up being a solution to let every character be able to win in a game where the win condition is static and the game flow is stable, many things follow similar rules like how in SF6 most supers of the same level have very similar use. The importance of frame data, the very few ways to do effective pressure, very few ways to do good oki etc, and they all lead to the same place, when your character is unable to do some of that it feels like their road towards the same destination is simply longer than the other characters. Generally the neutral ends up being where the gameplay is more varied since there's more interaction and a lesser amount of "right choices". If I were to guess, I don't think people complain about neutral skips because they skip neutral unfairly, but because they end up skipping the part of the game that is the most fun for them. The one where most of the real-time problem-solving thinking happens. There are many benefits to this sort of stuff but also many setbacks. This is inevitable when you make choices in game design, every choice to reach some objective will have to abandon something else to a degree. In older fighting games you'd more often see characters that played by different rules. It made it more varied but there's the problem of forcing players to play dramatically different games depending on who they're fighting against, and also the more out there a character is the more likely they are to be either too strong because they don't obey the same rules as their opponents or extremely weak because they're supposed to try to win in a different way in a game that makes it way too difficult. Balancing games like that is so much more difficult. Of the games the have released since SFV came out, I'd say that Smash Ultimate was the most successful in keeping characters dramatically different from each other while maintaining a decent degree of balance and character representation in competition, even though it's one the few that kept the practice of making clone characters. But smash has the unique advantage here in the fact that the win condition as well as many game aspects are variable, the very structure of the game includes variance in everything, it's a game system that encourages varied ways to play in its core. This might be controversial I feel like one path that these games can take to diminish this is to disincentivize combos, but then again, you'd be sacrificing the immediate satisfaction of doing combos for the sake of another aspect of gameplay. There's no right answer in these problems, depends on what kind of game you want to make.
@LealFireBallАй бұрын
I'm not hating on old games, because I love old fighting games: but SF6 is hype. It has so much theme, style, and aesthetic integration in not only it's music, graphics, but also its gameplay. There's no part of this game that doesn't achieve this integration and it's super impressive. But watching rounds hit PANIC MODE when people hit burn out is HYPE AF. That's not saying there aren't some annoying interactions with this (Rashid level 2 for example), but this volatility is fun. That being said I expect season 2 patch to seriously address things like roster balance and some sharp edges. SF6 is my favourite fighting game in forever, and I was there for SF2, Fatal Fury and Art of Fighting.
@cbiliciАй бұрын
SF6 and TK8 are adaptations of KoF mechanics into their core gameplay, but they're partial/incomplete. KoF has the Blowback Attack (C+D) which is the zoner-equalizer that you don't see in the current mechanic crop. KoF also builds grapplers with movement options; which is the other main factor that makes it different.
@TonyTheTGRАй бұрын
Yes, Street Fighter and T8 have more offensive tools, but these games always have an opening phase where aggressive and powerful characters are strong. Good defensive plans take a long time to get crafted. Also, JP?
@PrecludeLPАй бұрын
I've always found defense more interesting than aggression, rushdown & mixup. Grapplers are an awesome blend of defensive play WHILST moving in (that's how i look at it). But with aggression emphasised it feels like grapplers are weaker than ever across all games now. Also a lot of ppl find zoners lame and they're like pure defence. Attack = Fun Defend = Lame
"I've only put 300 hours into Street Fighter 6"
“Newbie Hours” 😵
Rookie Numbers Did anyone get that reference?
Its not much tbh, ive got 700 in sf6 and 200 in tekken8 and im not a streamer or pro
It's a LOT for people that have lives families
Bro I haven't even owned the game for 300 hours my God
It's an endless cycle. Once the honeymoon period ends for some people, then they start arguing about old vs new fighting games.
Every time. The new game is the best thing ever for the first month or two, then it absolutely sucks and the previous game that we spent the last two or three years of it's lifespan complaining about is, all of a sudden, so much better because people choose to forget all the jank that was in the previous game at this same point in it's life.
There’s a lot of people who’s primary engagement with games is arguing online. If there’s no drama they get bored and create their own. How to “fix” the game is way more interesting to them than actually playing.
Facts
Literally mortal kombat when tekken came out.
"B-But THIS TIME its actually true!"
I look forward to ten years from now where we're discussing this topic yet again, lol.
Ironically, if we skip forward 10 years, we’ll have missed the 3 other talks about this topic.
Ten Years?! just wait until tomorrow
Wait till SF6's season 2 and Tekken 8's major tournament
You know how many times I read "these new games suck not like Street fighter 4" man I never thought I'd live to see ppl bring up SF4 as a positive
"Come back in ten years!"
It's wild hearing people complaining about Street Fighter 6 being too offensive focused, because I remember when Street Fighter 4 came out everyone was complaining about it being too defensive focused.
I'll take offensive focused over defensive focused.
I remember feeling like the game was spam heavy online. All I saw was Camy, o maybe a Ryu. And it was justfireball wars, or canon drill.
Slow Fighter 4 was the popular term then.
@@seanmcbayDepends on how the offense is. Tekken 8 gets a bit overbearing with 50-60%+ combos and spam for something that focuses on having cool stuff like sidesteps, KBD, low parry, hop kick, etc. as options, but not like T7's turtling and poking was fun either. SF6 is nice because parry is just as strong for keeping turns as it is for taking back and can result in really fast or really slow matches and leaving it up to the players and their styles. Something like samsho is really fun with it being intended to be slow and with its theme'ing. Guilty gear xrd at least in terms of offense is nice but it punishes in dumb ways like negative penalty even though it has chip damage, which just makes a rich get richer when playing against new and low level players which will then just spam when defending instead of learning when to hit. Tag fighters are really cool with offense mixing and matching teams to make the best offense and defense with characters you like.
Players often do not know what they want. And while I'm usually bad a offensive games, I heavily prefer a game that wants to engage you than one where you're just sitting around waiting for something to happen. The most optimal way to play in past games where to either find a character who easily breaks defense or play ultra defensively, just waiting for your opponent to get impatient. And that drove me up a wall. It's wild to me that these people are complaining about offense when they were complaining about how defensive these games used to be. All of a sudden, SFV is good, the same SFV they were complaining to hell and back about being too defensive.
Dood; we are on Old Game Vs New Game 10 at this point lol
Nah, more like old game vs new game 15. 😂
Make it technically Old Game vs New Game 20.
Call of Duty literally every year.
Hyper Arcade edition
I think we already passed Old Game vs New Game part 10 years ago and now we're at part 20. Soon we will get part 21 when Akuma + major balance patch released and then continue with part 22 when Garou 2 or Project L released.
SF6 is light years ahead of what we got at launch for 3, 4 and 5.
Yea but the gameplay isn’t fun
People said the same about 3, 4 and 5 as well lol @Shodan130
@@xOmniCloudx yea and 5 wasn’t fun either, and isn’t fun, 4 however I like
@Shodan130 you missed the point entirely...
@@xOmniCloudx nah I get the point, as products sf 6 is miles ahead contentwise…. But I’d rather shit in my hands and clap than play sf over ST lmao
I remember when MvC3 was also the “New game bad” at the time, good times.
I think mvc3 was redeemed by having extremely deep and unique characters. sf6 is making an effort back in that direction, but sf5 was literally just "here's the poke you do into v trigger and then you do a free mixup" and there was just nothing else to learn
@@shaolinotter Maybe, but not many really gave it the time of day until UMvC3. Which kind of furthers Max’s point about how it’s not until the later versions of some games that people really like them and talk about for years later. SF 3, 4, 5 Tekken 7 GG Xrd FighterZ Etc.
Even MvC2 went through a 'baby game' period because it removed 2 attack buttons
100% this. I remember the hype for MvC3 coming out and then when it did, it wasn't the most well received. It was that baby version of MvC2 with easy execution, insane damage and a comeback mechanic that made people feel comebacks had no merit or skill anymore, like when people think back to Justin Wong's cyclops 1v3 comeback. The game was busted with the DLC glitch, people did not like how strong Wesker felt for how easy he was, and ultimately, everybody rolled their eyes when a dark phoenix appeared. Then people complained a lot because UMvC3 came out not even 12 months after MvC3, and I knew a good few people who refused to buy the next version because they felt like they were getting ripped off, especially when the netcode still wasn't rollback. Ultimately, every time a new iteration of a franchise comes out, there is going to be some resistance- some unwarranted, but definitely some very warranted too. This will happen with every 'generation' of fighting games and fighting game players.
Yeah I mean UMVC3 and MVC3 compared to MVC2 was piss easy. Comebacks were pretty common due to X factor so it makes sense that people playing marvel 2 for a decade and a bit would complain
"Fighting game developers will make a game, it will turn into something that they were not ready for. You get it into the hands of 10,000 people, 100,000, a million people, and all of a sudden, people are just doing things that you are not ready for." Couldn't explain it any better for MORTAL KOMBAT 1.
This sort of discourse is just part of the circle of life in fighting games. Whenever the time comes and a Street Fighter 7 or Tekken 9 drops, people will reminisce about how the previous title was better, conveniently forgetting the many grievances that were prevalent in the early meta.
Same thing with favorite characters getting slight kit tweaks or new moves
@@roderickreynolds2366 But Kuma has had hammer punches since Tekken 2 so this mishima fist crap is a travesty.
It ain't just fighting games. Heck, it ain't just games as well. Anything that was successful and got a sequel, will go through this exact process or something very similar. People love to complain, that's all there is to it.
@@Ryu_Makkuro exactly. Look at the star wars prequels. Those movies were hated by virtually everyone for YEARS, and now most modern star wars fans would say those are their favorite movies in the franchise. The past is always looked at through rose tinted glasses, and that applies doubly for previous FG installments.
It'll be totally valid by Tekken 9 because Harada and Murray will finally achieve their dreams of making a 2D fighter. I like 2D fighters and I play them but I don't think that's what people come to Tekken for.
People need to hear this, because Mk1 is being treated like it’s the first time in history a game made a misstep. A lot of vanilla games have glaring issues. Mk1 is similar to sfv release but by the end of it regained favor by the end with most. We gotta give it time.
I've been saying this for months now! Excellent comment❤
On the flipside, it's the only modern fighting game of the current era to get a Nintendo Switch port. I feel bad for the Switch missing out on Street Fighter 5 and 6, as the series has a history of skipping Nintendo home consoles after Alpha 2 on SNES.
This is why i really appreciate Max man, this amount of perspective on this take really helps. You're my favorite for a reason man
So true
"This game doesn't make me feel the way games did when I was younger, so it must be that the game is bad."
More often than not I feel like it's a matter of I was really good at the last game that I played for 7000 hours and now I'm not as good at this new game and so I don't like it. Of course some of the things that people say are true and are legitimate but other times they just go way overboard and are like the game is a complete dice roll a new player can beat a pro 50% of the time it's like that's not how it works.
Yes because the large amount of 3s players or +R players who have only picked up the game in the past 5 years are doing it purely for nostalgia of a game they never played
Or the game just look like shit 💩 I don’t have to spend 700 hours to know if I have fun with a game or if a game looks visually appealing
Anyone who says Sf6 is better than SfA2 or USF4 is on crack.
@@Scrubermensch a2 got mogged by EX2+ though let’s be real
SF and Tekken players: The games are so much more offensive focused nowadays! KOF players: Welcome to the jungle, little boys.
13 was peak
@@sashalama no it wasn't people would have bought it
lol no one buys kof games 98 and 2002 would be crazy to determine that based off their console sales @@mesiahwilliam7334
@@mesiahwilliam7334the netcode sucked and less people played video games nevermind fighting games back then
You are right but I mean as a KOF fighting game, not talking about sales yo hoo hooo and a bottle of rum
NEW THING BAD OLD THING GOOD the eternal cycle of man
Pretty sure there is evidence that people in the bronze age complained about the invention of writing.
Tekken 8 is the first fighting game since Tekken 3 that I actually have fun with. It feels very accessible with it´s arcade tutorial and other elements to the point where I got myself a Kitsune and managed to play and learn one single character for 70 hours without getting bored. Even playing ranked (never went online in other fighting games). That´s a first for me with this type of games and I feel like a lot of new players feel the same.
It really benefits Max having an FGC and Casual perspective when tackling these kinds of topics..
I’m too old to care about this type of conversations anymore , especially when people just point to top players “omg X said this game actually sucks”. No way! The guy that makes a career out of this doesn’t like the new game because the systems he used to dominate in the past game aren’t available just as they were before? I feel all the critiques that we should be talking about like questionable monetization, time between patches, etc. is more important with the way fighting games are now. “Back in my day you used to actually fight in the arcade because games were harder” who cares bro?
This is the correct take. I feel too old for this as well and I'm only 26. I've been following the FGC since MvC3 and I think I've seen enough to know that this is not really a valid discussion. Maybe it's just due to the growth in popularity bringing in new people who have yet to witness and understand this cycle
Facts!
@@TaulantDomi Great observation. It's probably related to monetization of content creation. DooD was the only one I saw like a decade ago even talking about fighting games. People saw him make money off it and then a bunch of other people jumped on, and yeah sure there's a real online FGC content scene now. Been there for awhile. But tbh I don't really know the playerbase is so high, people like watching sure but the actual player numbers are pretty bad especially after initial honeymoon phase, as compared to popular genres like FPS, MOBA etc.
@@TaulantDomi People who point this out get trashed on most professional FGC channels.
I can't tell what this op comment is saying here
Sometimes i forget Max is like 42. He barely looks 30
Like 32 at the most lol. I hope I look this good at 40
@@Sp3llmenThere's no hope for me. I already look worse at 32
That's because we play games and stay happy!
This short term memory is not exclusive to the FGC, I can't wait for monster hunter wilds just to hear people complaining about the lack of master rank for the fourth game in a row
I remember the worst moment in mh series history which was pre iceborne mh world where every content creator, player and their mothers were tirelessly complaining about lack of endgame and convinced the game would never get a g rank update
The new game is bad until it becomes the old game
SF6 and T8 are in so much better shape than SF4/5 and T6/7 were at this same point post release
This
Easily. I mostly see “you only beat me because of new mechanics, i’m so much better than you” boomers whining while self reporting that they are too bad to learn new mechancis
Exactly
Don't touch USF4 that's the best one for me
This is not true and i played 6
One thing I've been wondering about lately is why is it that in a current age where plenty of great older games are getting either remasters or fully-fledged remakes, why have we not gotten many Fighting Game remasters or remakes??? Yes there was the very solid Capcom Fighting Collection that released a while back and Virtua Fighter 5 got a remaster as well plus the long-awaited Marvel vs Capcom 2 re-release which unfortunately was only an Arcade 1-Up exclusive but other than those 3, we've not gotten much remasters of other FGs. How come there's never been a compilation collection of all the older Mortal Kombat or Tekken games similar to what Capcom did with Street Fighter 30th Anniversary? Heck we've never even gotten a FG remake period & there are a few older FGs out there that I feel deserve to be remade & improved upon. Just a thought.
Maybe that’s what the new VF will go for.
Because most old games have rollback and with arguably better lobby functionality than a remake would actually have via fightcade. Hell even arcsys has updated their legacy games with rollback The only game that needs a legacy revival is tekken because legacy tekken is Barron compared other franchises
They did that a lot in the PS3 era. Take old fighter port it and give it online. They just stopped doing it
I think they don't want to fracture their player base. They kinda want everyone playing their new fighting game.
@@mrblackhouseprez because fightcade was free and did it better
There's good and bad games in every era. some people are blinded by generational bias and ignorance. Don't let nostalgia cloud your judgement.
Old games are just inherently different to new games in the way they are designed, it’s not about nostalgia, I would say 95% of people on guilty gear +R or 3rd strike only picked it up in the past 5 years.. wayyy after the game got usurped by a sequel
I’m really glad I’m on the “Old game good, new game better” train cuz it allows me to enjoy myself
I think finding fun from old and new comes to differ on what you feel the game than being a oldie hardcore fan to dump the new gen game entirely, it's like the boomer meme again but in FGC levelheads.
Honestly to me it really depends on the franchise Like I can fully admit that say, psychonauts 1 is better then 2, but at the same time I can turn around and say that something like gravity rush 2 is WAY better then 1 I don't want people to dogmatically worship one side or the other, I want them to be honest with themselves
@@doctordice2doctordice210 Honestly I feel from that
Yup. Like FGC is eating GOOD recently... Yet so many people still complain over the dumbest things 😭
@@shahs1221 people taking the good times they're living in for granted is a story as old as time
Also T8 is the first iteration that has gone straight to console. Previous versions always had a good few years in arcades which meant they were essentially getting roughly 2 years of testing from the public before hitting consoles.
True
T7 was in arcade for 2 years before console?
@majorlazor5058 yes. I'm surprised you didn't know
@@nerooyeye2196 you don’t even know me 🤣😂🤣. I never had a PS4 and I don’t go to arcades often. There barely are any. Haven’t seen Tekken in an arcade since Tag 2.
@@majorlazor5058 😂😂aight. I just thought that most people were aware of it
Whining and gatekeeping never ends with the FGC It just gets louder
Exactly
Pretty much
I wish we could get it to stop. It makes it hard for me to get my friends into Soulcalibur because of this.
You gotta appreciate the amount of effort these spam bots put into their comments
Nah we dont
For real bots out here spitting some poetry lmao.
Who created and is utilizing said bot swarm?
@@KariocaAFCP yea we don’t.
Hoping someone will make an "adblocker" but for spam bots on all platforms
Idk if I’ve ever watched a KZhead video that ends with a to be continued and felt hyped af for part 2 until now
Dood, Max is so needed. Thank ypu for this vid
I can, fully believe, that we're doing this again. If only for the fact that fighting games are individually played for so long, so many years, that new people come in and have zero idea how the old ones are played, and the vets have been with the older games for so long, it's hard to not have a bias to said old game if they've already stuck with it, and it's nigh impossible to not be perceived to have a bias towards it by others anyway. It's a losing argument, because neither side is approaching it in good faith or sufficient knowledge.... it eventually comes around to "like the thing that I like, or PERISH". If that's not what you're thinking, that's what the other side is assuming of you anyway... because, as the clip, and podcast with Chris T and Ryan Hart explained, for as mentally solid you need to be to grapple with the depth of these games in order to compete at a high level..... there's a lot of brainless bums that give the FGC a bad name by treating this like a high school clique. Drama is for bitches, simply, do, better.
Couldn’t agree better! The FGC is a community that just likes to be so extra. I have a few problems with modern FG’s but I still adjust to the new game mechanics and just hope that it won’t get to brained downed.
"Neither side"? More often than not, it's the public veterans who are usually making arguments that are not in good faith. But what annoys me more about this is that Capcom already let it known that changes are coming yet these players are making a big stink over nothing.
But thats the whole purpose of fighting games to trash talk and build adrenaline, ultimately the point of a fighting game is literally to kill each other.
Its not wrong to enjoy complex and harder games. I hate these mind numbing modern games. I seriously do not know how ppl say they are good games. Addicting maybe like any other pvp game, but not good. They need to realize it's over though. I un followed all fgc stuff except Max for now. I didn't buy any fg after strive. In gaming in general I have stopped buying these new aa/AAA games since like 2013. The casualized redundant game dev trend got big during that time.
Drama isn't always for bitches and it shouldn't be labeled that way
Some people in the FGC have purely selective memory and/or can't make up their damn minds about what they want. I don't even play Street Fighter or MK and I remember people complaining about SF5 and MK11 *slowing things down* from the previous entries, but now we have some of those same people saying current entries are too aggressive? Speaking as a Tekken guy, even if we ignore that Tekken 8 in a much better state, right now, than Tekken 7 was at this same point, are we just going to forget about how much Tekken 8 has already changed? You had two Heat Dashes in the early builds, the bullshit Kazuya string in the CNT and the CBT, Claudio's absurd damage in the CBT, changes to combos in Heat, etc. We go through this same damn cycle where the old game is suddenly so much better than the new, when most of the time the new one is a noticeable improvement over the previous game.
Haha it's the new FG cycle. Newest game sucks! Previous game was great! Rinse and repeat ad infinitum.
People are gonna People. Until the End of Time.
It's funny that for how objectively these games are focused on offense, it's also the most I've enjoyed defense too. Drive Impact/Perfect Parry, Deflect Shield, most string enders being minus on block, etc.
One of the best takes I’ve heard on the topic 🔥
Funny enough I was just watching Max's 2 year old "Cyclops is A God: Month of Marvel" video...and then he posts this on KZhead 😁
I think the reason why people are looking at older fighting games is because they feel that new games invalidate old playstyles. SF4 is a good example of promoting a multitude of playstyles and moment to moment decisions. For every justin wong and snake eyes patiently waiting for thier mortgage to be paid off, there is koji kog turning his arcade stick so hard he falls out of his seat. The important part is that its the players decision not the games. Also why do people think that its going to continue for the same reason they were made in the first place. Its not for the benefit of the people who enjoy the game or for its health. Its made for the people who watch it. Which is profoundly bizzare and unique to digital content.
"The McDonald's french fry level...." is a quote I havent used enough in my life 😅😅😅😅😅
So that's why Tong kept making jokes about old games being more difficult and legit during the 1v1 marvel 3 tournament ...
Street Fighter 6 has World Tour. That alone is worth at least a reason to buy the game. And, since it's Capcom, it gave me flashback vibes of both Street Fighter Alpha 3 and Rival Schools (the japanese version had a Daily Life/School Sim Mode).
Man, you can't just drop to be continued and call it a day, I'm invested!
Oh boy a two parter?!?! Definitely a good take on everything that is happening. I applaud you taking the time to discuss this. I'm sick of all the hate (again much of it warranted) for what I'm experiencing and considering as a pretty fun time in my existence. Having T8 vanilla is so fun and volatile
Max, you are a priceless gem. Just came here to say this.
Always a pleasure to listen to Max reflections
This is a fantastic video! Great to have this perspective, I think it's important to acknowledge we're still in v1. Thanks Max!
I have always loved fighting games from an extremely casual POV. Since I was a kid. I was never gonna "git gud" as they say. But I love the game and learn to hold my own. My favorite fighters of all time are MvC2 and Darkstalkers 3. And MvC2 is ALWAYS gonna be loved by the community for it's roster alone. But it has aged, and not in all good ways. Despite that, we all still love it and it's meta as it is. That said... SF6 is the first fighter I've played since that REALLY grabbed me. In the end, everyone's gonna like these games for different reasons... they're all great. For their own reasons. Being a part of a major tournament or not is moot. The communities exist for all of them. That's what it's about.
Agree with Max. These vanilla versions of SF6 and Tekken 8 are way ahead of where the old vanilla games were. They almost feel as polished as the latest versions of the previous games.
who gonna tell him that Tekken 7 last iteration is arguably worse than it was at launch lmao.
Let's go with MK3 vanilla for example, that wasn't a great version of the game then we got UMK3 then Trilogy. Not the most balanced at all but dammit, were they fun
He makes perfect sense. People act like the old games were the best but everyone forgets vanilla games. People also act like old fighting games were king, no they weren’t. They were some of the most broken games.
Evo 2023 taught me that non broken games don’t exist. The main selling point of new games was balance yet there was 6 mirror match grand finals
New games are still broken constantly.
@@Shodan130 low tier high tier dichotomies will always exist (plus capcom's money being a toxic element as it encouraged people to play top tiers which had both negative and postive effects on the meta) But there's a difference between the low tier high tiers of 6 compared to 3, where the low tiers just straight we're missing essentials every character should have and the high tiers were these well rounded characters who had an absurd strength that would really exist in an extremist specialized character Hell for all of its hate crimes, 4 without yun and Elena was fairly well balanced, there are characters who straight up feel that they're playing with half a kit but the majority were competently playable Same can be said if season 5 sf5 before Luke came in and ruin it for everyone Tl/dr: perfect balance is a meme, the game not being 100% balanced doesn't mean that it has bad balance
@@doctordice2doctordice210 yea for sure, but when t7 gets WORSE balance Over time and patches rather than better. Capcoms financial based balancing (which namco does way worse if you look at tekken and dbfz) and arcsys huffing glue in the dev room. I don’t think it’s that compelling of a reason. Like sure 3s has bad balance, but games like tekken 5DR, sf4 and the like have decent balance, arguably better than what we are seeing now
@@Shodan130 I disagree SF6 doesn’t have any characters like Seth on released in SF4. Like it was mentioned in the video, no one remembers vanilla SF4. Seth had so many nerfs. He had moves removed out of his kit. He even had interactions removed from his kit. Like being unable to use his ult if his fireball was on the screen.
I only spend 10 minutes on Twitter each day instead of scrolling for hours. I feel more refreshed than distressed that I didn't know there was another FGC discourse.
Thanks for the shoutout! Wish I had actually made that meme and not just spread it around though. Credit to whoever did make it, it was damn clever.
this nonsense with the fgc has been going on since sf4/t6 days...now don´t get me wrong the whole battle pass and in-game shop stuff is wack (but ultimately don´t affect the gameplay in any way)...one day it´s the greatest fighting game of all time and the next day it´s the worst and a couple years later it´s the greatest again...I feel like people just reach their current ceiling and immediately start whining about characters being broken
I love his this conversation will always crop up every few years. I remember when I started in '09 on Vanilla SFIV and it was so frequent to see "09'er" used in an extremely derogatory manner, talking about how anybody starting in '09 was only playing fighting games due to how companies had made them drastically easier for the younger noobs to even grasp how to play the genre. Now here we are in 2024, and no doubt there are a lot of '09ers around that have said or thought similar things. It's just like in real life when you hear an older adult compare their times to yours, and how yours are drastically easier, or whatnot. The cycle will never end that's for sure. And naturally as I'm an '09er, SFIV for life >: )
this is prevalent in all of gaming. people posting about " i wish we can get a decent game like we used to." or" can i get a game without dlc and actually complete" or other dumb shit. there are SO many fantastic games coming out. people are way too nostalgic and way too picky. its infuriating. the type of people who say" theres nothing to play" who probably only play fortnite and cod are the worst.
I think what annoys me the most, is when people say a newer game is bad, and then act like the older games that they love are practically flawless. It happens so much with beloved games, like Lego Star Wars or Kingdom Hearts. Or Sonic. Even though in some of the beloved games in those series, I have a number of problems with. And you'll just get some funny looks if you either criticize and/or express distaste in more beloved games or if you just prefer the newer game to the older one. Newer games can have their fair share of issues too, and people are welcome to dislike them and criticize them. But its a disingenuous double-standard when they just act like older games didn't have their problems too. It's not everyone, but when it does happen, it's irritating.
Oh boi here we go… again
The FGC will never grow with these petty ass arguments.
Seriously, do we have to do this EVERY time a new game comes out?
This is a spambot, and it got more likes than the original comment
IWC just beat y'all to it
@@zynux8252it freaks me out that they talk so normal now
They aren't necessarily petty, they have to do with what makes the game enjoyable for many people, and if there are legit criticisms to be had, then it is worrying to people the direction that the game can go. And with how successful the new ones have been, comes the risk that the devs will be more complacent about fine-tuning the gameplay, compared to games like SF3 where the failure of it is what pushed them to change it into something better
This is what happens when you all you want is for every game to be MvC 😂
Damn your good bro... solid solid take. This is why we love you max!
Damn i looked and clicked so fasg because i thought this was gonna be a mvc2 is back on stores announcement 😂.
Have we learned nothing from 3th strike 😟?
Unironcally? Sf2 players were smugly pulling the same "THIS GAME RUINED SF's DEPTH" bs EVEN 3rd strike wasn't safe
You gotta appreciate Max for all his Hard Work😎
that is some top tier thumbnail lmao
"coming down to 50/50 situations, now you have to guess all the time." said it all right there
Wish Max talked more MK1 in this video...
Just give me Capcom vs SNK 3 please... With updated 2D and the same amount of character slots
OMG, watching SFIV Ken whif a shoryuken just to be safe against Abel's MP almost made me spit-take!
As an old FG fogie myself, I am in 100% agreement with Max. FG devs NEVER get “it” right on the first go around. Especially Capcom lol. And it’s not just FG devs either. Do y’all remember the dumpster fire that was vanilla Diablo 3? People are just impatient and have no idea how good they’re eating nowadays.
One thing is for sure, there will never be another marvel vs capcom game.
Let me hope man
@@GuyWithZen459No. It’s dead lol
@@bulb9970 we thought the same about fatal fury bro
At this rate, marvel could use the money
Capcom has all the resources to create another successful Versus game with their IPs. At this point, they should just make Capcom All Stars
I feel like twitter is too toxic sometimes, especially in the FGC space. A random salt tweet can become discourse for a game that's only 3 months old.
Yeah, toxic as hell After looking at the statistics, I just said "SF6 is indeed very balanced" after one game and someone complained and my account was blocked.
That logo in the thumbnail is chef's kiss 🙂👄🤌🫴
As Max mentions, when Street Fighter 4 first came out, there was a LOT of discourse over not just it, but people who got into fighting games with SF4. The term "09-ers" got thrown around a ton, and it was NOT a friendly nickname. A similar thing happened with Marvel vs Capcom 3 when compared to MvC2, where the term "11-ers" came about a little.
people dont have to agree. but people also need to elaborate more on why they hate certain things other than screaming "IT SUCKS".
Because the games are designed in a fundamentally different way, old games are simple, very straight forward while new games have more complexity and feels diluted. Lacking in the strong fundamental core. You can play tekken tag 1, ST, kof 98 and get how it’s played and how to consistently win in 5 minutes, but your barrier to get there is fundamentals and execution. New games have so much going on that you are constantly fearing 50 different ways to instantly lose the game or some gimmick you didn’t lab. I like simple games, and simple FG’s don’t exist anymore
@@Shodan130 The games have evolved. You're just old and can't keep up.
@Shodan130 what you said was an oxymoron. Dilution removes any and almost all complexity. To dilute is to strip away to its base compound. So these recent games are so divoid of complexity that they are stripped down versions and streamlined compare to their older iteration. Or they are so complex that they are completely unrecognizable from their simpler iteration. It can't be both.
@@Sammy_X7 I can keep up well enough to win my local and get paid. But as you said I’m old which is true. Locals pay out worse now than they did 10 years ago. So why play a game I don’t find fun like sf6 when I can play something I find fun like ST ? Playing a game you don’t like to fit in with the Fgc is mental illness
@@SleepingBook what I mean is diluted from its fundamental core, sf2hf is very much a game laser focused on neutral, same with a game like tag 1, tag 1 is a game that’s 100% focused on movement based neutral. Compared to their newer games sf6 and tekken 8 that focus on the fundamentals of the game is diluted with boatloads of more mechanics and systems. These mechanics and systems make the game more complex but also makes it less focused on one particular thing like old games would be, hence what I mean by diluted
Definitely an eye opening topic.. Can't wait for ya part 2 video..
As someone who's been playing fighting games since the 80's, the thing about most fighting games back in those days was that when we played them. We played them only amongst our friends who would come over and play with us or we go to the Arcade and played other people but when you play in the Arcade. You didn't really have the know how about how to do special moves and combos because you put in your 25 cents or your 50 cents and you played the game and if you lose you either play again and again until you run out of your allowance and take your long walk home of shame. As the years went by we started having tournaments which then made the game accessible. This was more around the Street Fighter 3 era. I loved Street Fighter 3 New Gen when I first saw it in a shop that had Arcade games and I was the only one who really played it. 2nd Impact came out and more people played it. I mained Sean in that version and I knew combos because I read EGM magazines. EGM was the only way you get to learn about these games and all the cheat codes etc. Then there were Gamefan magazines as well that gave you tips on strategies but not everyone bought those Magazines unless they were hardcore fans. Some people had 12 month subscriptions coming into the mail. When 3rd Strike came out no one really wanted to play it until the Evo moment of Justin Won vs Daigo. People were mostly playing Street Fighter Alpha and Marvel vs Superheroes and then MVC 1. I didn't even know tournaments was being held for the game, it was a girl from elementary school who showed me the video and that moment, I said yo, I got learn how to play this game but the game was hard to find. I didn't get it until the SF anniversary edition came out and it was a good port for the PS2. Thing is now why new players are good at fighting games is because they have a lot of resources to learn how to play the game compared to back in the day. Back then we only had EGM and Gamefan and Gamepro magazines. Now players got the internet, Gamefaqs, KZhead, and a whole set of tournament videos to watch and learn and lets not forget they have practice mode and online play to further train. Old games didn't have these things. So I don't believe games were harder back then, there just wasn't many resources for players to learn back then. Nowadays those same new players are getting good at older fighting games over on Fightcade because they have the resources now to learn and the people to help them practice and compete with and there is also practice mode implemented through modding the roms for Fightcade. Anyway sorry for the long ass comment. I don't think fighting games right now are getting easier either. SF6 is draining because there is so much to keep up with during matches. Only thing easier about SF6 is modern controls but most people using MC's have the same strategy in my experience because they just wanna exploit quick executions. Modern Controls not really that new though. These controls scheme been in SF Alpha and Marvel/X-men vs Capcom games since the beginning I believe. I also remember playing SNK games and to me those games were a bit harder because of the motions for super moves.
I didn't play sfiv ranked, the first game i started to play ranked was sfv and got to platinum, then my friend got me into Tekken 7 and I got to red ranks I think (just below Tekken Ruler or Tekken king idk it's not very high), but I came back to street fighter when 6 was released and I love it more than any other fighting game I've played, the combos are fun and easy to do, yet the skill expression is still present I feel like people just get salty cause they lose to somebody who started playing sf6 as his first game and is beating them and they are like "yea you got carried by the game, if we were playing sf4 or sf5 I'd smoke you", same thing happened in sf5 and probably even in sf4, people get salty cause they put a lot of hours into a game that ceases to exist and then get beat by players that don't even know if previous releases existed
Idk if max will say it in the next video, but the reason more newer players are getting good nowadays is because fighting games lately are more accessible. It can be cause games are easier, they offer more tools to help players learn, or the fact people can get coaching or look up combo vids. Its not a bad thing at all
Definitely not a bad thing. FGC players will call these games scrubby though.
"The Player Is Here To 💩 On Your Game...... Not Literally"Preach Brother! Preach!
Max: I’m gonna take you for a ride!
I have been a fighting game fan all my life, I wish I had the money for Tekken 8 but atm can't comment as I don't have but SF6 I am in love with the game. I would love a Primal Rage reboot or remaster and Killer Instinct a new game would be great. Tried getting into MK1 but I find my skill issue preventing me enjoying the game, SF6 I feel I can find a level that suits me. I play a lot of other games so don't sit and grind fighting games enough to get to master but I love playing SF6.
Personally I can’t tell if it’s just nostalgia or the way serotonin decreasing with age, but the older fighting games just feel like they have a staying power about them. I support new fighting games and I’ll play them for a few weeks, but then they go up on a shelf, while I fire up SFA3 for the billionth time.
I think it's just what got people into the genre or a game early into their like of FGs. I started FGs near the launch of Strive. My current 'main games' are Strive, KOF XV, SF6, and Tekken 8. I've tried some of the previous entries and other franchises (UMVC3, BBCF, Skullgirls, etc) and I've had a lot of fun, but Strive feels very comfortable and I suspect that it's because that's what got me into FGs when previously I thought I didn't like the genre.
Selective amnesia. First off, you are remembering the classics. Not Time Killers, Criticom, Karnov's Revenge, Agressors of Dark Combat, or any of the metric ton of garbage that came out back then. Those didn't have staying power of any sort. Second, back then, we all were less discerning and more accepting of a game's flaws. Nowadays, we scrutinize games closer and expect more from them.
@@mappybc6097 I think it runs a little deeper than that, after I put some further consideration into it. Like if I really think about it, I feel in love with the alpha series sprite work that went the whole way up to mvc2. I loved the anime design for all of the marvel characters at that time and was enthralled with them the moment COTA dropped. I didn’t even fully understand the mechanics of the crossover games as a kid, not to the degree that I do now. However. The thing that stands out to me as a huge difference is that I knew each character and was passionate about finding out their stories and endings. Odd as it may seem, I feel that most of these games I’ve stopped caring about the characters. The stories have gone on too long and have grown too convoluted. It’s sort of the argument many fans had against MVCI in that, they replaced magneto with some other character that eight-way dashing and so the “function” was the same and it’s like, I don’t care about the function. I care about magneto as a character. I think a lot of that has dropped off for me. Even guilty fear which has always been crazy story-wise has just gotten so ridiculous that you need an encyclopedia attached to the game to know what’s going on and it sort of takes me out of it. So weird as it is to say; I wish fighting games stories were as a good as they used to be. I know the storytelling mechanics have gotten substantially better and deeper with story modes but, I’ll always just miss simple arcade ladders with a three panel ending with cool artwork. And unlockables upon completion a la tekken 3 rather than dlc on EVERYTHING
@theAshesofDecember1 Fair enough. Personally? I found out more about Ryu as a character in SF6 than in the past 35 years of SF lore. It's just delivered in a very unconventional way, which is a shame because anyone who skips World Tour will miss out on some pretty interesting interactions with the characters they love.
@@theAshesofDecember1 I agree with you on not caring about the story anymore. With Street Fighter, it sure didn't help how they kept jumping back and forth in the timeline. I lost track of which game came first in the story.
Cant wait for "Can't believe we're doing this...AGAIN - REAL TALK: Old Games VS. New Games; Rebirth"
On the kind of non-issue of fighting games being easier now: could we consider that the teaching tools of internet guides, community spaces like Discord servers, player practice spaces, and in game learning resources are better for learning an improving at a game now then they were before? I’m not saying things weren’t lost in the transition into this online era, but as a community of communities between casuals, tournament players, and developers in different games we’ve done a good job at building a space where someone can improve from getting their teeth kicked in, to expressing themselves in competition.
Here comes Max, with logic and reason, to settle everyone down.
Thought for a second this would be about OG FFVII and the new trilogy
max is that guy you bump into at a comic book shop that changes ur life forever and then u never see him again
Can't wait to come back to this topic once Fatal Fury comes out.
Look, I think what we miss from older games was the engagement to it. We could unlock sick alternate or boss characters and they looked bad ass. I think newer games have better gameplay but when it comes to content the older games like ps2 Era wins
Ps2 days were so hype, but I also enjoy newer games as well. I'm hopeless lol😂
@@rockkandyplay5692 no newer games have better gameplay
Yet the fgc are the one who complain about having to unlock characters
@MegaDarkness5000 That's what adds Replay value. If they don't like it, then they should just pay extra money to immediately unlock everyone, like KOF XIII did.
so early i can see the bots
The tale as old as time 😂
max old hair style vs new hair style
Out of curiousity, why was MK1 no talked about in this video, as I think they are having the same issue that SF6 and T8 are having with their fans
I'd say because Tekken and SF were more traditional with their gameplay compared to MK. Aside from REALLY basic stuff, MK since 9 has changed drastically between games, any skill from previous titles doesn't really carry over. Basic strings and combos change a lot, property of special moves (like Scorpion's spear in MK11) while some basic stuff on Tekken hasn't changed. And MK1 is getting more flak due to how WB and NRS are handling monetization and how they planned the retention of players which feels more anemic compared to MK11.
Yep, all 3 games are having the same issue.
Cause MK actually sucks
@@Bkzflyest0823no
Why is Max quiet 🤐 on MK1?
Street Fighter III was released alongside the SFA and SFEX series, so I’d say having three concurrently running series at the same time could not sink a franchise. SFIII by itself without Alpha probably would have done but it didn’t happen that way. SFIII caused no harm to the Alpha series by existing, and the series continued getting new games, evolving into Capcom vs SNK. Although a crossover, they are still practically Street Fighter games.
The SF3 series bombed so hard they didn’t make a new Street Fighter game for 10yrs.
@@M1d32 That’s not how it was. A bomb wouldn’t have received an update (2nd Impact) then a true sequel (Third Strike). And I already demonstrated that the Street Fighter series continued during and after SFIII with other games up until the early 2000s, a few years after Third Strike. The correct answer for Street Fighter going on hiatus for years was the market shifting to 3D games, and Capcom’s attempt at a 3D fighter (Capcom Fighting All Stars) was an internal flop that never saw release. That has nothing to do with the quality or reception of SFIII. The PS2 era was a rough time for all fighters and I think Capcom were right to sit it out. And anyway, despite its poor sales, Third Strike is actually a genuinely good game that Max often returns to and speaks highly of. It didn’t “bomb so hard” due to poor quality.
@@Martynde they tried to salvage it twice leading to no new Street Fighter games in a decade. A franchise that they released spinoffs and new additions to with Street Fighter II like snow dropping from the sky in winter. Very textbook definition of a bomb. Edit: PS2 era was fine with Tekken games, Soul Calibur, Virtua Fighter, Dead or Alive on the Xbox. Even the Mortal Kombat games kept coming out despite their stinker after stinker.
Absolute facts on everything said
That cliffhanger 😢
Old games vs New games is always a divisine topic no matter what genre it is. Like someone here said, it's a losing argument.
It's a losing argument because the type of person to go "old thing better" is both ignorant of the past and the future, looking at both through a superficial lens Like a 80's and 90's kids in the 00's weren't listening to plastic beach, fleet foxes, the avalanches, etc they were pretending that Justin Bieber was the only thing the 00's had to offer
I think that we seem to disregard the transitions in technology. What seems better? A console with no way to fix the bugs, or a console with the ability to download updates? It is a petty topic to me because we have the ability to take lessons learned and make something new.
@@doctordice2doctordice210id say there less ignorant and more nostalgic they like old things better ussaly because they were young when old thing came out or if not they at a time of there life they kind of miss which is human people miss were they were young and they tend to put things that they enjoyed when they were young on a pedistol
@@addex1236 see, I Sympathize there but I don't know how that translates to being willfully blind and unfairly reductionist to the present There's a difference between reminiscing of fond times gone by vs treating the word "modern" like it's a shameful slur and taking what you have for granted
Im honestly sick and tired of the gaming community, not just the FGC. There is ALWAYS something to complain about. Sometimes it's valid like people complaining about MTX and broken releases, but a lot of the time it's just whining to whine. "THIS GUN IS BROKEN REMOVE IT FROM THE GAME, I DON'T LIKE THIS CHARACTER SO THEY SHOULDN'T EXIST, THE GAME DOESN'T PLAY HOW I LIKE SO IT'S BAD, THIS MAP SUCKS REMOVE IT, THIS CHARACTER IS TOO META, THE DEVS DIDN'T ADD A THING I WANTED SO LET'S HARASS THEM, THE GAME DOESN'T TRY NEW THINGS, EW THE GAME IS TRYING NEW THINGS!!!!" it's so tiring. Can't go anywhere on social media without hearing whining about the things I love.
Right now, in all the communities I'm in, I spot complaints about simple things like Eddie Gordo's killmonger cut. It's annoying.
The amount of people who bold face tell me about how much they love street fighter iv, and don't remember themselves bitching endlessly outside of AI and WNF about how terrible SFIV is with it's invulnerable wakeups and link problems while I was there... is startling to me.
It’s like when max brings up that one fighting game thats dead can’t even think of the name rn 😂
Homogenization thing ends up being a solution to let every character be able to win in a game where the win condition is static and the game flow is stable, many things follow similar rules like how in SF6 most supers of the same level have very similar use. The importance of frame data, the very few ways to do effective pressure, very few ways to do good oki etc, and they all lead to the same place, when your character is unable to do some of that it feels like their road towards the same destination is simply longer than the other characters. Generally the neutral ends up being where the gameplay is more varied since there's more interaction and a lesser amount of "right choices". If I were to guess, I don't think people complain about neutral skips because they skip neutral unfairly, but because they end up skipping the part of the game that is the most fun for them. The one where most of the real-time problem-solving thinking happens. There are many benefits to this sort of stuff but also many setbacks. This is inevitable when you make choices in game design, every choice to reach some objective will have to abandon something else to a degree. In older fighting games you'd more often see characters that played by different rules. It made it more varied but there's the problem of forcing players to play dramatically different games depending on who they're fighting against, and also the more out there a character is the more likely they are to be either too strong because they don't obey the same rules as their opponents or extremely weak because they're supposed to try to win in a different way in a game that makes it way too difficult. Balancing games like that is so much more difficult. Of the games the have released since SFV came out, I'd say that Smash Ultimate was the most successful in keeping characters dramatically different from each other while maintaining a decent degree of balance and character representation in competition, even though it's one the few that kept the practice of making clone characters. But smash has the unique advantage here in the fact that the win condition as well as many game aspects are variable, the very structure of the game includes variance in everything, it's a game system that encourages varied ways to play in its core. This might be controversial I feel like one path that these games can take to diminish this is to disincentivize combos, but then again, you'd be sacrificing the immediate satisfaction of doing combos for the sake of another aspect of gameplay. There's no right answer in these problems, depends on what kind of game you want to make.
I'm not hating on old games, because I love old fighting games: but SF6 is hype. It has so much theme, style, and aesthetic integration in not only it's music, graphics, but also its gameplay. There's no part of this game that doesn't achieve this integration and it's super impressive. But watching rounds hit PANIC MODE when people hit burn out is HYPE AF. That's not saying there aren't some annoying interactions with this (Rashid level 2 for example), but this volatility is fun. That being said I expect season 2 patch to seriously address things like roster balance and some sharp edges. SF6 is my favourite fighting game in forever, and I was there for SF2, Fatal Fury and Art of Fighting.
SF6 and TK8 are adaptations of KoF mechanics into their core gameplay, but they're partial/incomplete. KoF has the Blowback Attack (C+D) which is the zoner-equalizer that you don't see in the current mechanic crop. KoF also builds grapplers with movement options; which is the other main factor that makes it different.
Yes, Street Fighter and T8 have more offensive tools, but these games always have an opening phase where aggressive and powerful characters are strong. Good defensive plans take a long time to get crafted. Also, JP?
I've always found defense more interesting than aggression, rushdown & mixup. Grapplers are an awesome blend of defensive play WHILST moving in (that's how i look at it). But with aggression emphasised it feels like grapplers are weaker than ever across all games now. Also a lot of ppl find zoners lame and they're like pure defence. Attack = Fun Defend = Lame