The TRUTH About How Long EV Batteries Really Last
When electric vehicles cost so much, it's understandable that people would be compared about their longevity. I mean, phone batteries are notorious for how quickly they degrade and they power devices that have a fraction of the functionality. But are claims that they will only last 3-4 years really credible? To find out what's REALLY going on, stick around as Dave Takes It On.
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Trying to compare the life of an EV to an ICE is ludicrous. Diesel trucks can easily exceed one million miles as that is what they are designed to do otherwise they are not fit for purpose. Plenty of diesel cars and vans on the road with 500k miles on them. Any machine that is well maintained and used correctly will last its expected lifetime. EVs biggest problem are the batteries. If they fail that can be expensive as it's a major part of the vehicle.
"If they fail that can be expensive as it's a major part of the vehicle". ...except that's misleading. If they fail due to accident damage they will be replaced by the insurer, and if they otheriwse fail in use they are covered by the battery warranty.
@@ajward137 What happens when the warranty is expired. Also what makes you so sure that an insurance company will pay out for accident damage 100% of the time. And lastly batteries make up a large monetary component of an EV therefore if they fail it can be expensive to fix. Can't see how that is misleading.
@@mgcarmkm4520 You're not making any attempt to compare like with like - The warranty on the batteries is typically 8-10 years, and that's practically the only expensive component that can "wear out" (although it usually doesn't). It's similar to the ICE engine or gearbox in a car - takes up a large monetary component of the car - except that you try getting a replacement when the (comparatively short) warranty expires. I leased a brand new Citroen C3 a few years ago, and did abot 30k miles a year commuting to work. Just outside the 3 year warranty, the gearbox destroyed itself because a seal broke up and blocked the oilways. Cost £2500 to fit a new gearbox. Apart from the battery, there is no expensive component that can "wear out".
@@ajward137 A warranty is 8 to 10 years or 100,000 miles normally. So if you average 25k a year then in four years time you are out of warranty. Tesla doesn't recommend rapid charging constantly and it does seem to affect battery degradation. A replacement refurbished battery could be up to 10,000 dollars so it's not cheap if it goes wrong. EVs are specialized machinery as the technology is relatively new therefore getting someone to work on them is not easy or cheap whereas ICE vehicles have a plentiful supply of parts and mechanics are not too difficult to find.
@@ajward137no the inverter and the electric motor are wear items. Electric motors have rotary seals and bearings in them if you don't do preventative maintenance on them you will kill the motor. This is due to the rotor and stator needing to avoid contact with each other. Also the typical coating on the stator degrades in humid environments. If the rotary seals leak it will immediately kill the motor along with the inverter and controller this was common problem on early tesla model s's.
I know a designer who works in esports car and motorbike design and even though they are working their batteries to extreme performance limits, they still last two years. I do not imagine that an F1 ICE engine would last that long.
They don’t. Most don’t last a season.
In 2023 it is said that the main battery costs Tesla $6,000.... The estimated battery cost at the end of 2024 is just $3,600. So to say that the battery cost $50k or $60k is utter nonsense.
But Mike, these people read this garbage and believe it, without ever questioning the authenticity of it....... It's probably fair to say that most of the crap written about EV batteries, comes from people who have never even owned an electric car.
@Brian-om2hh Totally agree with you. But it happens all over. Look at the garbage given out by Boris!! Standing outside to clap and support the NHS, whilst he filled his pockets and his friends pockets with PPE contracts. Most of us believed it...!! Now Richie is spouting shite about ALL THE MONEY SPENT INTO THE NHS.... Whilst his wife dodges £60m tax bill and makes a fortune on invested shares. The nonsense is all around all of us.
Hyundai asked for 60k CAD to replace a damaged battery on an Ionic 5.
2 cases in Canada on Hyundai Ioniq 5. 60,000 cad for battery replacements after minor damage
@@stuartburns8657 Go back and look at the invoice shown in both of those examples. first one list price of the battery $4,769 which mysteriously became $44,769 in the total, second one list price of the batter $6,649 which mysteriously became $56,649 in the total. Both cases were dealer errors that were recognised as such by Hyundai
I normally skip any video whose title starts with "The Truth About...", but since it was one of yours, I made an exception.
I have a 2014 Tesla model S P85 and on 119k miles no problems. Has been 100% supercharger usage, no home charging. Still 220 mile range, which is down about 15 miles from when first purchased. All ICE cars prior to this would have needed major repairs just to get to this mileage.
Last time I looked EVs did have axles, suspension parts, water or fluid pumps etc that do wear out. We shouldn't pretend they're zero maintenance however it's fair to say they are lower maintenance.
Suspension, steering parts, fluid pumps are good for what, 100-150,000 km? Brakes on an ICE, every 60,000 depending on model. EVs using regeneration, maybe 200,000. Oil in an EV lasts longer due to no combustion and lower operating temperatures, even if motor operating speeds are higher. The other big difference is that most EVs have software updates to tweak functionality. Tesla even does remote diagnostics. The service interval on my Volvo is every two years, and given the upward trend in the price of car repairs, will save me a bundle over the life of the car. And as for depreciation, if you keep your car for ten or fifteen years, well, who cares? I plug in at home, so range really isn’t much of an issue. Try finding diesel in ten years.
Well mate that is until you run up against having to change the battery. My 2012 Mazda 6 Sports Hatchback has 165,000 kms on the clock and is as good as the day I bought it (new) . I have had it serviced regularly and have only had to have the power steering unit replaced caused by pot hole damage.
Ah, the battery. Big oil is trying very hard to convince you with their campaign, but the battery in current EVs should be good for 15 years or more, based on a lot of numbers from Tesla et al. I’ll have saved for mine inside of five years - $20K Canadian plus $2-300 to exchange it. Compare that to replacing the motor and transmission in your Mazda. Which sure, is a very good car. Every litre of gas you put in it starts at prospecting for oil, drilling, shipping the crude, refining it, and distributing it to the gas station. But that isn’t figured in the carbon cost of running an ICE car, just tailpipe emissions. A lot is made about the dirty secrets in making batteries. But big oil doesn’t want you to know about theirs.
The only difference in regular maintenance would be an oil and filter change. Very rarely do you need to change gear box oil and as for the rest they are all similar. Brakes, suspension, Water , air filter, hand brake, steering, wheels, tyres, constant velocity joints etc. indeed due to the much increased weight there maybe more wear on some parts than on ice motors.
@@desmondbeattie3954 There’s a lot of noise made about weight. My 75kW battery adds about 250kg to the mass of the ICE version of my car, but Volvos are pretty beefy to begin with. My car is 500kg lighter than my last vehicle, a Land Rover, which I had for 250,000km with relatively few problems. Parts do wear out on all cars, true. In general however, there’s enough factual information out there to tell us that the servicing and charging costs of an EV that uses a home charger is significantly cheaper than an equivalent ICE vehicle. Enough that I would definitely buy another one if I had to do it again.
I know it is only one story , but yesterday I decided to do a range check on my nearly six year old LEAF 2.Zero. 90700 miles on the clock. I did a round trip of 155 miles, with a top up charge (12.5 Kwh)at half time, Shopping, a walk and lunch. I arrived home with 20% in the tank. The same figures as I got four years ago. As a second vehicle it has more than adequate range, over 130 miles, close to original, and will continue in use until it dies.
Point to mention, dependent on how large or small your kWh battery pack is this will decide on the reduced range over time. Also constant DC charging which tends to apply to most company car drivers as time is money will affect the life expectancy of the traction battery.
The truth about how long EV batteries will last: nobody has got a clue because completely different batteries keep coming to market every year and it takes 10+ years of any given battery being on the market to get real-world numbers. By the time you have concrete real-world data, the battery this data comes from has been obsolete for years already. Until battery cell designs stick around for 15+ years, we'll be in a perpetual no/limited-real-world-data state. We have pretty good stats on ICE because the metallurgy and operating principles have been mostly the same for the last 30+ years.
Battery technology in the cell works in a very similar way, the main change will be with Sodium ion cars. Yes there are variants in the chemistry, but that will be fairly similar in the core degradation issues. So we no truth in your comment, is is just latest FUD from the oil industry.
What would give confidence as to the condition of the battery is a test result of individual cells for capacity and internal resistance, I was speaking to a MOT tester recently and he explained that currently only pack voltages are tested which takes no account of the individual cells condition, just the terminal voltage of a pack. also the BMS doesn't currently charge to cell level merely pack level and overall battery level. If a certified cell test was issued that would be the most accurate assessment available and support the resale value as proof of condition.
Not strictly true to say nobody has a clue. You can get a fairly accurate idea by having the battery pack tested via the car's diagnostic socket, using an OBD..... This can provide you with a print-out of the battery's health in percentage terms....
@@tomooo2637 There are changes in anode, cathode, separator, electrolyte and current collector composition which will all give batteries significantly different energy and power densities, different charging, discharging, temperature, aging, dimensional stability, ability to maintain electrode plating, etc. characteristics and changing any one variable usually has knock-on effects on some subset of the others, some of which detrimental and not necessarily obvious. Electro-chemistry is far from being an exact science. The potential for unforeseen long-term detrimental interactions between seemingly minor tweaks is significant. It is part of the reason why it takes about five years for most battery improvements to get from the labs to market, got to show due diligence in attempting to catch any foreseeable issues.
@@Brian-om2hh Checking cell voltages is no guarantee that cells are free from lingering defects. A dendrite won't cause any visible degradation until it pokes far enough through the separator to cause significant leakage, same goes for most latent defects. And with cell composition changing every year, what is learned from one batch doesn't necessarily apply to new batches 1:1.
Yes but, anyone doing 50k miles per year across 240 working days in a year means that recharging away from home will be the dominant factor in ownership. The only rep I know with this requirement has abandoned his company Tesla and got a diesel bmw.
Hi Dave, greetings from Oxford. I think we will see a growing aftermarket for battery pack repairs, upgrades and exchanges, just as there is with ICE cars at present. What often kills a car is its inevitable depreciation, I ended up scrapping a 1974 Renault 12 because the exhaust went. The car was 16 years old and 180k miles and had no residual value, it was also rusting, leaking oil, and all the usual symptoms of a declining ICE vehicle.
I looked it up and on average anICE engine loses about 2% of its gas milage every year.
Really? My old Hyundai diesel is almost 13 years old, 287,000 miles and fuel economy is same as it always has been.
@@brendanpells912it just can't be, because components wear. As an engineer for 31 years that's just a fact of life, it's not bad, but it is normal.
@@devonbikefilms I log every single litre of fuel that goes into that car so I know what the fuel consumption is. This is also a fact. Maybe the ICE cars you used to drive degraded over time but I bought a car that is built to last and I don't neglect it.
Made from unobtainium
@@brendanpells912 You just think it is because you have no accurate way of checking but ALL ICE cars lose power and become less efficient over time.
It’s not the life of the battery that is the issue here at all, it’s the degradation, as that will directly affect the range, way more than it does on an ICE car. I would think in the future all used EV’s will need to be sold with a battery percentage figure by law and that will directly affect the price they sell for. What that means for the future used EV market, who knows? I would think there will be mandatory legislation soon for anyone selling a used EV to have a battery percentage warranted. Can’t see any other way people will have confidence in what they are buying otherwise.
Fair comment. Displaying the battery condition in percentage terms certainly wouldn't be difficult for dealers to sort, and it would offer assurance to potential buyers. Many dealers cited an ICE car's service history as a selling point if it had been well maintained. It isn't unusual for a well looked after 5 year old EV to display 90% battery state of health..... James (he of the James & Kate KZhead channel) has one of his company's MG5 estate cars, at just over a year old and 70k miles. The battery state of health is 96%.....and that includes a lot of rapid charging out on the road.
Agreed, it will probably be another thing buyers get used to checking, just like people check if cambelts have been changed when they buy second hand cars
I think mandatory kwh usable rather than %
It's a new way of clocking for the con artists, raising the battery percentage
@@peteradamsonful Yep that would be a good idea too. If used dealers will warranty it’s genuine that would give confidence.
Hmmm. I've had an astra MK1 do over 200k, a seat Alhambra petrol 340k, a cavalier do 116k before I rather carelessly wrote it off. 150k is on the low side
Exactly, this is a bunch of nonsense. ICE engines are much cheaper to replace, and (Japanese and Korean at least) engines with timing chains are also quite easy/cheap (Oil and filters) to maintain + reliable. He mentioned 3rd person who buys the car. No one in their right mind would buy 10 yo EV with >100k miles (Maybe very cheap for groceries shopping). People buy equivalent ICE cars all the time, and rely on them. Btw isn't it funny how EV people, who are like all about sustainability, carbon and whatnot, argue one should replace car every few years lol. I have 11 yo Hyundai (bought it new) and I don't even think about replacing it.
You must be a very niche motorist, 650,000 miles is around 80 years driving for the UK average. The Astra would be 25 years old, I doubt very much that it would last that number of years without serious repairs costing many ££££s
@@garyhill9723 because people don't buy used cars, own/manage companies (and car fleets) etc.
@@garyhill9723 I had jobs where I was driving 35,000 miles/year. My old Hyundai diesel is 13 years old and done 277,000 miles. Still doing 25-30k miles/year.
@@brendanpells912 Yes I’ve worked with a lady who did 300k+ in her diesel golf from new over 6 or 7 years, I would do 20-25k a year at the same time but usually px’d my car at around 50k. My reply to the comment was that it was quite an outlier to have driven 650k miles in 3 cars. The other side of that coin, my first 3 cars (many years ago) all had recon engines before 100k.
Most cars are scrapped not because the engine fails, but because of problems with the chassis, bodywork, electronics, interior, havac, etc. that will end up costing more to repair than the car is worth. I suspect the same will happen with evs, on a similar timescale, execept the scrap value of the ev will be significantly higher than the ICE car due to the scrap value of the battery.
Yeah. ICE cars often die because the “electrics” are toast. LEGAs buy electric parts from the cheapest supplier. Crazy VW sourced all wiring from Ukraine. Oops!
Unless you have a 1L EcoBoost engine then you could be replacing it as early as 40K miles
I think EV’s will get scrapped off sooner as if the battery fails on a 8k car ands it’s 4K for a repair or second hand replacement you won’t bother. Most ice cars still have value until about 2k as long as the engine and gearbox is ok.
even mildly degraded ev batteries can also be repurposed for house backup/grid storage. There are companies that do grid storage arbitrage with used ev batteries.
@@jeremytine Not exactly, the main reason to scrap an EV now is the battery, even if the car was new but has suffered a heavy accident we don't know the condition of the batteries. The costs involved in stripping and testing the batteries are enormous that's why it costs so much for a recycled replacement battery pack, and it's only just cheaper than buying a new one (about 25% Tesla). You need to test each cell individually to know the state of each cell, especially as it only takes one cell to throw out a bank of batteries. Plus you don't know the power profile batteries have run previously in their lives. It wasn't as bad in the past as charger speeds weren't as commonly high, but as there are more and more superchargers they more likely that a preowned car has been supercharged. At least here in the UK temperatures are relatively cool which helps prolong battery life. Makes me laugh when people say a cell is only $2, yes that may be so, but the work to remove the pack, strip it down find the specific cell and then build and seal it all up correctly isn't a quick job, especially not for a business. If you need to rent a garage. employ someone and insure the place to be able to carry out this work you are probably looking at $50 an hour before you even turn a profit, plus you can't do a half job just replacing one cell. Who's going to be happy paying $2k to get a single cell replaced, then in a couple months another cell goes and you have to start again, and a repairer certainly isn't going to offer any warranty on a partially repaired battery. I'm glad I bought a new Tesla buying second-hand is too much of a gamble, especially now the largest share of cars bought or rep/company cars and they don't necessarily care as long as they are charged and ready to go as quick as possible.
Great video again, I used to do 'quite high' mileage in the past, I think my best single year was 96k in one car alone. I've never been bothered by higher mileage vehicles, well maintained & they are fine. I did have the cams snap on a Mercedes once at 460k, it was fine till that point metal fatigue set in. All vehicles are scrapped to soon through consumer vanity, nothing else. I read last week of a Tesla owner in the USA who had an early model s 90d (the one that came with free charging for life) He has taken the free charging seriously & is currently sat at 1,9 million miles on the clock. 3 batteries & 2 motors done under warranty in that time. I think there are only an old Mercedes & a Volvo that have ever got higher mileages recorded. There are MG4's that are already over 100k in a year of use too. Can't be that bad..
I think in 8 years time batteries will be very different. An 8 year old ev will be fixable by then. There will be loads of EV specialists offering repairs
Problem is the regulations and such. You can't just put in a different battery in an old car. The BMS might not work with it or the wiring need to be different. In some places you need to get it approved to even get it insured and road legal, and if the car manufacturer is not approving the mod that's not going to happen. And why would they? By denying to approve a battery upgrade they can sell more cars.
@@Gazer75 There have already been cases of old Nissan Leafs getting their batteries replaced with those from newer Nissan Leafs. It's expensive, but when it's all done, you end up with a 10 year old car that has considerably more range than it did when it was new.
@@ab-tf5fl From what I understand you will not get the extra kWh from a bigger battery if upgrading the older 24kWh Leafs. The BMS is different and some other things. At that point you might as well buy a new Leaf. What you can do is replace modules with bad cells. A shop specializing in EVs here asked Nissan about it. You'd also have to get Nissans approval as they have to give the car a new type rating. Without that the car can not get registered and receive plates. In the US you can do pretty much what you want as long as the car doesn't fall apart. There is not even a bi annal safety check like we have in Europe.
I've owned my ICE powered vehicle for 17 years, it has 250,000kms on the clock, and it doesn't seem to have DETERIATED that much as it still returns around 45 mpg (Imperial). Out of interest how much , as a percentage of the original vehicle cost, does a worn out engine and ancillary parts cost to replace/rebuild compared with the REPLACEMENT cost of a battery pack.
About the same, before they replaced it under warranty, I was quoted $22000 to replace a blown engine in a 2014 Holden Commodore V8. A Replacement battery for a RWD model 3 is $16000 (AUD)
Had a friend show me an article from daily mail showing that the battery will need changing after a few years .I must have a Lucky one as it's 4 years old and still fine
It is great that we are starting to get more and more facts about actual EV batteries and range loss. It is a surprise to hear as well that Tesla has found no more /major difficulties with EV's that have only been rapid charged. Great information again.
Hi Dave as an almost new EV owner (Hyundai Kona is on order) I find your information helpful and very entertaining. Slowly working my way through all the episodes. Many thanks, keep up the good work.
Some good points Dave concerning Engine wear. I Engine wear did look at prices for Nissan leaf’s battery replacement which was around 6k last year, but the price varies depending on location. This talk of battery failures I’ve actually not seen any as yet, but I have seen reports of the converters failing which does a small packet. But this sort of failure can happen with modern ice car. The question really is, let’s just say you have owned your battery car for 5 years doing 8k a year and your left with a battery replacement does it actually still save you money over an ice car? What are the costs for servicing generally for battery cars? I would be interested in knowing what they do to justify the costs to.
Swedish statistics say average battery life is 300,000. Nissan leaf had no cooling and no other measures to extend battery life. Currently the scrap value of used batteries exceeds the original manufacturing cost and there is a shortage, as there are an increasing number of aftermarket restores and improvers.
On balance, some cars like Ford Fiesta ST have had engine failures at 40,000 miles. Occasionally a dud does get made but this is exactly what warranties are for.
Ford eco boost engines are failing every day through poor design but no one crying to ford about their poor performance. How many cars have had new engines fitted in the last 10 years and is still ongoing but never mentioned
@paulscott1759 Exactly.... Ford USA had 2022 Explorer and told thousands of owns NOT to park near the house. Fire issues! Nothing said...!! Apparently Ford has the highest percentage of warranty claims and recalls of any company. Yet in UK it is "buy a Ford, as more reliable than Vauxhall" If that was true Vauxhall would breakdown in the showroom... 🤣
@@mikadavies660 There are plenty of ICE car fires in the US. The NTSB recorded 190'00 of them during 2022....
@Brian-om2hh Fortunately the only ones that count are Tesla. Funny that they won't be able to count fires with the new battery chemistry. The story will probably be something about Elon on drugs...!!
There have always been ICE engine failures of one sort or another. The great Peugeot 1.9 diesel cylinder head gasket fiasco of the late 80's, early 90's for example..... The Peugeot 405 diesel I had in the early 90's, blew it's top twice......along with an assorted variety of other costly faults. I swore back then I would never touch another French car, and I remain as good as my word to this day.....since then, I have once been given a lift in a Citroen. But thankfully it was only a 20 minute trip, and we did reach our intended destination. Although I did begin having doubts about 10 minutes in......
Problem with the 70% is that the range lost is more painful for low range cars that maybe already were on the limit of comfortable range. I've seen testing on old degraded e-Golfs, Leafs and i3's. It's painful when you drive 50-100km between charging. Its basically a local commuter and only that. My 10 year old Golf TDI was still able to do 800-1000km on a full tank. Pretty much the same as new. To be fair I didn't drive it much due to health issues, but I believe it was only at around 60-65k km when I sold it. Even if I lost 100km it wouldn't be very noticeable. You don't loose 30% of the range if you take care of the car and keep it serviced. Highly doubt my 2020 e-Golf will still be able to do close to 200km in summer after 11 years and/or 60k km. I can normally do around 150km between charging on trips. Potentially loosing up to a third of this is going to be painful. At least there are chargers everywhere around here so 100km between stops is not a problem, but the ratio of time at chargers vs driving is going to be very bad.
The good news is 1) There's a whole lot of people out for whom a local commuter car is all they really need, and 2) modern EVs have much bigger ranges to start with, so it won't be an issue when they get old. With respect to 1), I would argue that anybody that would own an ICE vehicle alongside the EV falls into this bucket (this includes millions upon millions of two-adult-two-car households). For most city-dwelling families, the number of times that both adults need to drive two different cars 50+ miles in the same day is almost zero. And, even if it does happen, a one-time visit to a fast charger for whoever's driver is shorter can be enough to make it work. The real problem is that most consumers are not this rational. They want *every* car in the household to be capable of the longest trip they might ever make, even though, really, only one of the cars needs to have this capability.
Just clocked 50,000 miles in my Renault Zoe GTline ZE50, no noticeable battery degradation or range loss as yet.
Whats the real life range
@@davebaker8362 At around -5 celcius 130 miles, on a typical winters day of 7 degrees around 150 miles, summer at 25 degrees 200 miles. That's motorway range using Eco mode (speed limited to about 66 mph)
@@leegoodman297lol @ 130 miles. Meanwhile I take 2 minutes to refuel mine for another 600 kms
@@xr6lad And it takes me about 10 seconds to plug it in. Honestly the time saved refueling argument isn't valid for the majority of people. 99% of the time my journeys are within the range of my car so I don't waste time going to a filling station and stand waiting for it to fill up or potentially queuing to get in and out which happens quite a bit unless you fill up at unsociable hours. I drive straight home and plug in. In a year I average maybe 3 journeys where I charge en route and I've never driven far enough to require 2 charge stops, typically I'd need a toilet break because I'd have driven for 3-4 hours before needing to charge. So I might waste say 20 additional minutes 3 times a year waiting for a charge to reach 80%. That's a lot less than the time I used to spend in filling stations.
@@xr6lad About every 5 days I plug mine in when I get home and it fills itself while I have my dinner and watch the tv. What could be easier.
The aspect of EV battery life that has me the most nervous is not battery degradation in the cells themselves, but something stupid happening like a temperature sensor going bad or a wire getting lose. In many cases, issues like these are easy to fix and don't require scrapping the entire battery, but the problem is, you still have a lot of service centers that act as though everything inside the battery case is this mysterious black magic that can't be touched, so finding someone to open up the battery to replace the broken temperature sensor can be difficult and expensive. That said, I'm not too worried about this and I paid a low enough price for my car that if I can even get 10 years out of the battery, the cost of the vehicle per year will fall within the acceptable range. But, when the time comes to eventually purchase my next EV, I will definitely be paying attention to battery repairability across different brands, and would absolutely be willing to accept tradeoffs in range or charging speed for the peace of mind of knowing that if something does happen to the battery, that it can be fixed.
Once the cost of battery replacement, that is the cost of the battery and the cost of labour in doing so, matches the cost of the engine or gearbox being replaced on a equivalent ice car, then there really is no reason not to buy a EV. It will be interesting to see if the uptake on EV ownership actually extends the time between the buying and selling; after all if the EV operating system can be updated then short of accident damage or excessive corrosion to the structural integrity of the vehicle, then why sell the vehicle on?
NBC Affiliate Seattle KING5 News just did a YT video, “Mayhem EV at EV repair shop as more early adopters experience battery death.” This reports comes from area that espouses EVs. Basically, EVs are abandoned due to battery death for those who can’t afford to replace battery.
We'll find out in another 4 or 5 years. By then we'll have much more data and we'll know which EVs turn into money pits.
mine's 8 years old and no problems yet. What should I look out for?
Problem is you don’t normally get a warning long before batteries fail. It only takes one cell to go down in a pack to take the bank down. But if you keep them in the 30-80% range and don’t work them hard they should last 10-15years.
@@davetakesiton A single sample is an anecdote. Flicking through these comments there are examples of sub-60K and over 500K ICE cars. To analyse and compare the typical life of ICE vs BEV needs a large sample size. Hopefully the EU regulatory framework for batteries (AKA "battery passports") will collect data over time and present an unbiased source to inform the consumer and legislature in preference to the current petrochemical vs ecowarrior lobbyists' dramatics.
The mild steel battery tray used on VW EVs will rust out well before the battery cells age.
The method of recharge can vary enormously this in turn has an effect on the life of the battery. Refuelling at a pump never effects the engine life, it's the same every time.
I remember a video where a high current fuse (placed above the Tesla battery) degraded by repeated supercharging. It consisted of a number of filaments in parallel. Over time these burnt through and the degradation accelerated. Eventually, and usually after a supercharge and fast acceleration away from the charger, the car died. The battery was OK but the fuse needed replacing. Unfortunately Tesla charged a fortune to drop the battery and perform a replacement. Third party (HEVRA) garages could probably perform this repair as long as Tesla was willing to provide the fuses. In the US it is roughly a $300 part. Apparently there is supposed to be a warning in advance.
A car’s age, effects fuel economy . No matter how well maintained efficiency and power are never as good as when you drive it a lot. However, while a product of the miles you’ve driven, this decrease in efficiency is most likely due to faulty or worn engine components. It’s also true your ICE mileage changes over the period of the day as well. Colder mornings mean lower fuel economies.
lol
@@denissorn Why LOL? Every ICE car loses power and efficiency over time no matter how well it's maintained.
@@TB-up4xi that's bs, especially in context of comparison with EVs. My 12 years old Hyundai consumed 4 - 6.5 liter of diesel per 100km when it was new, and I haven't noticed any change in the consumption during all these years. Say the consumption went up around half liter (so 4.5 - 7 per 100 km) after 12 years, what's your motivation for being pedantic here? For the sake of nitpicking or to feel better about your EV vehicle that's basically junkyard material after 12 years (because they're so economical, carbon friendly and all the fake nonsense gadget worshipers fall for, while switching luxurious cars like they were socks).
@@denissorn that's some serious projection.
@@TimTheFoolMan yeah dude you got me. I switch expensive gadgets like socks, and my Hyundai's range halved.
Only be replaced under warranty if you have kept the service schedule up to date, manufacturers will try anything to get out of it, so if buying second hand always check service history
And have the battery pack tested with an OBD device, via the car's diagnostic socket......
If you buy a Tesla, they don't have routine servicing so you'd be fine unless you abused the car somehow.
Finding this a bit hard to accept. I had a 2001 Passat 1.9tdi and I sold it in 2016 with over 750,000 miles on the clock. It was regularly serviced and only ever needed brakes, 2 clutches and timing belt when required. I now drive an EQA 250 and love it, but I don't think 150,000 miles is a fair life of a car.
Well done you. My brother has been running 2.0 TD VWs as his company car for over 10 years, doing about 60 to 70k per year. Without exception they were all getting ropey at 150k and were absolutely hanging at 170+k, spending more time off the road for repairs.
@@devonbikefilms VW stopped making the 1.9tdi as it was almost indestructible. Still think 150,000 is nothing for a car. I lease now so it doesn't affect me and I'm definitely an EV convert.
Been driving for 50 years, never owned a car with more than 80000 miles. I dont think most people would. Always going to be exceptions, I except that.
Selling a Passat with 750,000 miles. You couldn't give it away.
@@RobertArrowsmith well sorry to spoil you idea, but I sold it for €500. The engine was still perfect!
People who buy an EV ; sell it in 4 years are far weathier than the general public. In Australia there are millions of cars over 20 yo Ive had a number of Ford Falcon & Toyota Hilux which did 500000km & one did 680000km & I sold them in useable & roadworthy condition. A friend was still working with a Falcon at 1125000km. A stepdaughter in 35 years had 2 Toyota Corallas. We have to get yearly roadworthy certificates. Cant see an EV go close to these mileages.
Exactly, not only are you getting high mileage and long life from your ICE cars.......but the RANGE on a full tank of gas is more or less the as when brand new. My 22 year old Mazda Altenza with 250,000 km is still giving me the same range as when brand new. If an EV loses 100% of its range after 10 years..........then after 5 years, it's lost 50% of its range. And don't forget. all EV manufacturers bullshit their the range to start with. Greetings from NZ.
I drive a 2012 VW Passat 1.6L Turbo Diesel. I drive on average 20,000 miles per year. I regularly service my car. I have 232,000 miles on my car and it's still going fine. Most other cars of a similar vintage have similar milage and run efficiently. Im averaging 55 mpg and no problems. Any EV car will need to achieve the same
I hope new business will set up which will offer battery upgrades or fixes. But I am with you that batteries are in general quite reliable and 10 years is no problem for most EV's with a decent BMS. I guess the Tesla/BMW will last maybe 20 years. Who even keeps cars 10 years these days? Its irrelevant for most as they will be in a newer car before any issues. In the future a new or repaired battery will not be excessively expensive. I'm not worried.
There are already a number of independent EV specialists in the UK, offering battery upgrades and refurbishments, and modifications etc..
My EV has 9 years and 70000km. Ny motor is like new and without noise
The data you showed didn´t state how often the vehicle was charged with the super charger and s on, no details whatsoever just 2 lines.
If they are that good why is there so much depreciation on evs
Really good video Dave.
Cheers mate
Hopefully they last longer than my vacuum batteries, which are the same just fewer.
It's easy and cheap to replace an ICE engine. While diesel engines are several times more expensive, for cars like Corolla one can find engines in good shape for like €500. Equivalent diesel engine might be 2 - 3 X that, so still waaay cheaper than a battery.
if you want to put in an engine that might be equally as knackered as the one you are taking out. Buy new!!
@@davetakesiton not sure that's the best move when the car is old. It's easy to find refurbished engines in good condition. IIRC sometimes one can buy them directly from Mazda etc.
My electric bicycle battery has done just under 7,500 miles over 7 years and is still healthy enough to meet my needs. I've noticed that voltage drops sooner than it used to, indicating reduced range, but until it becomes less than I need to travel that's not a show stopper.
A few Chevy Bolts in the US have 250,000 on the original batteries; not all Bolts got free, replacement batteries. A fellow in Quebec Canada has 430,000kms on his original Bolt battery (last time he posted), and he said it had about 5% degradation.
My EV ( Renault Zoe 63 Reg) is now over ten years old and still has a battery with 98% SOH.
Nio have battery swap, 30 to 60k swaps per day in China. Problem solved if you buy the right EV 👌
Hello 👋 My 2014 Renault kangoo ZE is still going strong. Infact it's just like new!
No matter how many times you tell me your specific car is going strong that doesn’t change the fact that 1.4 million cars are scrapped every year at an average age of 14 years. Well done for being the exception
@@davetakesiton hello again Dave, I'm just checking that you know I'm on your side. 😃 My kangoo is a full electric van. My point is to show the nay Sayers are idiots! My first electric car was a 2018 ionic and was bought by one of my neighbours... Still going strong... We have just taken delivery of a new peugeot e-rifter to use as a micro camper, doesn't have great range but it doesn't worry us cos we're very confident in the charge infrastructure. It's so much better now than even just 2 years ago!
Anecdotal evidence is considered invalid, until you get to cars you either love or hate, then anecdotal evidence is supposed to carry the day.
Battery degradation varies a lot. There are plenty of situations where the owner didn't get a battery replaced due to "external factors" or they basically ran out of miles on the warranty. When you then have to pay 50-70% of the cars value when it was new to get a replacement there is a problem. A perfectly fine car is almost worthless. The Ioniq 5 story from Canada is one example of "external factors". The guy hit something on the road and cause damage to the battery housing under the car. Hyundai refused warranty and battery was damaged and needed replacing. They asked for 45k USD to replace it and the insurance company basically sold the one year old car for scraps. So you as a owner will have to take the cost of loosing insurance bonus. This also drives up insurance cost as the companies has to divide this on their customers.
That IONIQ story is 🐴 💩The dealer scammed the owner- the car was still under warranty. Now Hyundai has to deal with the Frunkin’ lies.
There where 2 stories of this happening to ioniqs in Canada. And Hyundai did confirm that the 60,000 cad was the correct price.
Afternoon mate
battery replacement outside of warranty is a no brainier, no one will pay and the vehicle will be scrapped and yes, I would buy an ice vehicle with 200,000 miles because I know a replacement engine or repair is perfectly doable, as a mechanic myself, I can confirm this, as I’ve change around 30 engines in my 35 years experience, most recently rebuilt a 2009 3 cylinder polo engine, rings, valve stem oil seals and big end bearing shells, parts came too £150, customer very happy, also I have a 53 year old v8 Bentley type 1, still running perfectly. Unless these EVs can still last 50 years, they are just more throw away garbage, nothing ‘green’ about them, just another dumb idea the best thing we can do, is not make any new vehicles and repair and maintain the ones we have.
EV batteries wear out on calendar aging and charging cycles, not mileage as there is no moving parts.
Another great video Dave, you never fail to make me laugh, it takes me back to when I was a child, reading the Beano. Why not let a funny, but factually incorrect story, get in the way of the real facts. Do EV cars run on a bed of air, as according to you, they don't have axils, brilliant LOL !!!! I've been dealing with lithium batteries since 2005, I know about them, I don't know where you get your information from, but it's very wide of the mark. Sorry to wee wee on your EV bonfire.
To be fair an ice car with high mileage is a lot cheaper than an ev battery.
Tesla 4860 batteries are £12 each
@@bernardcharlesworth9860 🤣 not bad if you need batteries for a TV remote
Nonsense. Batteries are now around $50 per kwh.@@bernardcharlesworth9860
Why would you buy a whole EV battery, when the cost of a battery pack refurbishment could be around the same as fitting a new clutch in an ICE car? Unless of course you didn't know about battery pack refurbs......
@@Brian-om2hh still going to cost more than an high mileage ice car.
Stupid question maybe.. As say a 50kw battery degrades. When it's charged does it take 50kw to full charge even when it has degraded to say 45kw..
The reason a battery degrades is that the internal resistance increases. This means there is a parasitic energy sink, where energy used charging the battery doesn't go into chemical energy, like it is supposed to. Instead, it goes into thermal energy. This means that the battery charging will be less and less efficient, as the battery degrades. Whether the drop in charging efficiency decreases enough to still use the same energy as it took to give it its first charge...I haven't explored that specific data. I would expect that it does mean it still takes the same amount of charging energy, to give it less total energy stored.
Just waiting for a kit to convert Teslas to ice!
Dave those questions aren't stupid, because of all the FUD that out there.
I have a total different problem. My ohme charger is cutting out because it’s getting too much power over voltage into my property. National Grid can’t do anything about it because it’s too much solar panels in my area. It’s because it’s in putting to electricity is back into the grid causing too much power coming to my property so I have no choice now to send my Ev back after all the Waiting, My charger cuts out after 253v has anyone else heard of this problem?
I get 247V on my Ohme. I'm pretty sure that voltage ranges have legal limits in the UK.
What you need is a voltage stabiliser. And get on to your supplier and challenge them re supply standards.
A quick look tells me 253V is the legal supply upper limit.
@@charlesbridgford254 Scottish power said 252, 251 sometimes it’s 250 is okay I can tell that he doesn’t want to answer some questions, but he says he will monitor for seven days but you have to request it not making sense to me in the 21st-century, everybody else solar panels
@@jakeroadtonowhere4070 Solar panels may be the reason, but it's the Network Operator's responsibility to manage solar installations, so it's not really an excuse. Keep pestering.
The problem is Li-ion batteries decline over time not just charge cycles. So very few batteries will last more than ten years regardless of mileage. Only the Model S is over ten years old those first year’s batteries no have a failure rate of about 7%. Definitely less than half of Li-Ion batteries will last twenty years. Unlike ICEV a forty year old BEV is a boat anchor and a forty year old ICEV can be perfectly usable.
180 300 miles and no battery degradation
Dave, the word you were searching for was DE teriorate, not detteriate
This guy an engineer because teslas have water pumps, they have heat pumps, they have gear boxs that do need lube changes, they have rotary seals and bearings on the eletric motors(this is what commonly kills electric cars). They require prevantive maintenance typically major prevantive maintenance particularly for the electric motor at 100k to 150k. Really I've found that most people who recommend EV's have never even turned a proper wrench before or done the simple maintenance to keep something on the road cause if they did an electric car could go for a long time and a ICE cars could aswell. Really everything you drive requires servicing its just a regular car is probably more refurbishable than electric due to the batteries and manufacturers locking most people out of BMU learning protocols.
Your beliefs disagree totally with the reality of owning an EV. Many Tesla Model 3s have been documented to have covered over 200,000-430,000 miles with zero servicing or major repairs or major replacements. Where do you get your ludicrous beliefs? PS most have never changed even their brake pads and the tyre wear is also better than ICE.
The thinkig is you can get a gas car that is 15 years old and drive it up to 300k miles with the right maintenance, you couldn't do that with an electric car simply because of the age. We have alot to learn but of course if your buying a car every 5 years no you can get anything. If you wanna buy used and save money its a different story, but then Im in Cali, you can keep cars for a long time if you choose
Tesla just had a reunion of Model 3s that all had done over 300,000 miles, the leader was at 430,000 still on original battery and brake pads. You were saying?
@davetakesiton did you read my post? Wait til you get older Teslas and see how the batteries wear. We dont know how time will affect these batteries yet. I'm skeptical, any battery you get, time is a factor as well as use. I had a really high quality Odessey battery in a car I put about 1k mile a year, battery went out and I had a tender on it. These are not cheap repairs either. Well see tho
The Tesla modS batteries lasted >300k on a total milage of >1million miles ! Negligent factor! .. Recycled thereafter and >92% re-used
Ah, is this the Tesla that did a million miles, but when you do your research, it had 4 batteries and 6 drive trains replaced? That one?
If you are driving as much as you say, then you are completely wasting a good chunk of your life fighting traffic. Also, since you mentioned this 20-year life of a car: Don't worry about the future; because that day may never come.
average EV life will now be around 300,000 miles, and the current production should be longer.Statistics from the Swedish.
Every vehicle I have ever had has done 230,000 to 250,000 miles so total crap.
The problem with this video is it take Tesla at face value and ignores research and what we know about these batteries.
Apprehension about EV's: EV's are a performance disaster and prone to spontaneous battery fires. Their greater weight causes more road damage and environmentally dangerous particulates. Moreover, the mining of Lithium for the batteries causes major environmental damage. Furthermore, EV recycling at the end of their operating lives is poorly developed and heavily burdens the environment with dangerous toxic waste.
All be it point on warranty may be good for tesla however other manufacturers are not doing this. Take the EV transit, he drives from let's say London up north more tha 100 miles to deliver items or to perform his her work he needs charge the van for an hour before he can get back home or head off to another job. That's him tied up for an hour just charging and not working. Delivery vehicles vans etc can cover over 300,000 miles in a year many of them have a engine replaced within the first 3 years of the vans life under warranty and these full engines cost around £3000 which is considerably cheaper than a battery. Wheel bearings brake pads etc all in the hundreds not thousands so figures used in this video are inaccurate. Commercial vehicles such as vans really do allot of miles every year. You also need take into consideration that if you went from Skegness to Wales and back your entire day would consist of waiting for the car to charge it very inconvenient not to mention charging points are hard to use, mostly don't work.or are very slow charging and are not always available or suitable depending on the type of electric car. You can buy a high milage cheap car for less than £1000 repair it and be on the road, the same can not be said for a EV and because of the danger of the battery there is serious certification and regulation around any and all tampering or repair made to these batteries just making it completely uneconomical for those on a lower income
Batteries are getting cheaper every year by the time you're 8 years are up a new battery maybe cheaper than a new car. Tho your car and it's battery will probably be good for meny more years with out needing replacing. Evan if you do get battery problems they can be fixed. Most of the time it's just a bad cell. Just look how many EVs have ever gone to the scrap yard most of them are still going even tho there now old technology.
You're stoned if you think an internal combustion engine will only last 3-4 years. A Toyota engine does a good 500,000 before it even gets tired. . That battery pack is dying from the day it's born. 10 years at best. And no matter what you do. . If you use it, it's only going to die even sooner. Reality check!
We only drive about 3,100 miles a year. Based on that, if I bought a new fuel sipping, inexpensive ice Corolla today, it would take approximately 40 years to accumulate the same amount of miles my current ice car has on it right now. That's 40 years of not having to worry about electricity guzzling EVs and batteries and lousy charging infrastructure and range anxiety and thermal runaway and so on. Without all of that added stress and worry to vex me through the years, I stand a better chance of living out those happy 40 years.
If you have a Tesla there is a good chance the Muskrat will tell you it is your fault & you have to pay the bill
As a truck driver I don't see any ev,s on the road older than 5 years but I know that they should be out there
Five years ago battery vehicle sales were relatively tiny and the range quite limited. The landscape is changing even if the battery chemistry isn’t. The gains are in aero, electrical cooling and electric efficiency. Better batteries (whatever that means) such as LFP are less than five years old. Lithium M3P is unproven in the mass market as is sodium ion
Elon says lots of things. Be careful. When he claims your battery will last 15 years, he does not mean it will have the same capacity as it did when you bought it. Even the warranty only guarantees 70% of original capacity at 8 years. So sure, if your battery doesn't explode because of complete cell failure, you can limp along, charging every 100km or so, and yes, your car still technically runs. If that works for you, go EV. PS. Don't believe any range estimate that any EV car gives about itself. Range is how far you can actually drive under your normal conditions, not what the car's optimistic software thinks the range might be.
Strange my 8 year old model S is plodding along, range down about 5% but still well over 200 miles in the real world, not exploded yet, not limping along, 0-60 still well under 5 seconds.. Please let me know what I did wrong. BTW what warranty did you get? I got 8 years unlimited miles
If an EV loses 100% of its range after 10 years..........then after 5 years, it's lost 50% of its range. And don't forget. all EV manufacturers bullshit their the range to start with.
@@davetakesiton "0-60 still well under 5 seconds".......stupid comment, Dave......nobody is looking for acceleration.......people want trouble free motoring.
Diesel is best!
Can you get a translator? Cannot understand you?
I have to wonder just how many times an EV owner would have to stop for a "top up" as opposed to an ICE vehicle owner having to stop for fuel in the average mileage anyone normally travels in a year?? I am sure that the time spent waiting for a charge top up would be so unbearable as to drive one(no pun) quite insane - especially the reps mentioned in this video. Frankly buying a used EV is in my mind such an extreme risk to take simply because one would never know how the vehicle was treated or driven in the past - for example has the vehicle been damaged and then repaired from a minor incident which may or not have involved the battery - go figure!! For a used ICE vehicle any good mechanic would be able to pick up any faults that the vehicle has.
All lies in the media about EV's and my E golf still has 5 years VW warranty happy as the range is fine for what we use it for
MG 7 years. Why Volvo 3 years?
Till minimal dent or scratch to casing or wee bump to the car...
Buying a seconghand EV would be the automotive version of Russian Roulette with 2 bullets in the cylinder
You might get 5 years from a battery before it starts to slowly fail in output. EV's are a busted flush. Avoid.
My e-bike battery has already lasted 5+ years and doesn't get taken care of nearly as well as an electric car battery (e.g no thermal management, sits all the time at 100%). Sure, the e-bike has some battery degradation, but it still works, and will continue to work for quite some time.
My EV is fine thanks. 😂😂😂
You have no idea what you are talking about.
What a load of pish 😂 if you pranged it it’s gonna cost a fortune to repair dent in a battery and it’s a right off 🤷♂️parts are so expensive and have to be fixed buy main dealers .they are proven to be less reliable than ice cars 🤣you’re so one sided on EVs man it’s a religion I’m not against EVs but it’s the right to choose what you want and not pick and choose the statistics that promote EVs they are on the decline the public doesn’t want them this is fact!!!!!
I wonder who's paying this guy? I reckon it must be Elon Musk.I think he probably doesn't even own an EV. If anybody is spreading rumours and misinformation it's this guy doing the video. I had one absolute nightmare went back to ICE anyhow I don't believe the average bloke buys a new car every 4 years. An awful lot of people in the UK can't afford to pay their heating or grocery bills etc let alone replace their car every 4 years mate . Maybe you're the exception not the norm. So personally I think you're being well paid to brainwash us with this crap Thanks