Was Petra the Real Mecca? | Al Muqaddimah
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Did Muhammad Exist: • Did Muhammad Exist? | ...
00:00 Intro
01:43 Dan Gibson's Hypothesis
03:12 Checking the Evidence
04:05 Where Do Muslims Face?
04:28 The Problem with the Qiblas
07:24 Descriptions of Mecca
09:23 The Story of the Qibla Change
10:48 The Cover-up
12:55 We Face Your Qibla
14:40 Conclusion
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What if the real Mecca was the friends we made along the way?
Islam is not a shonen🤣
Lol
Haha!
Shafiq Sha we confuse ourselves if we dont face the facts
@@Yassine_98 it does have harems though
As an irreligious person, I really, really admire your ability to speak of your own faith in such unbiased, fact-based manner. Really great respect to you, man.
lol, muhamed worshipers are irreligious people and you are a funny bot
@@worfoz "Pray to Muhammad" Lol yeah yeah lol false god jesus you never met a muslim dont you
@@AryaputraGemilang No, muslims do not exist anymore. Muhamedans pray to muhamed and hois associate alla, like the innovation shahada tels them Islam is about Isa´s God, muhamedansism is about muhameds alla. Jesus is the real god of 2.5 billion christians, you hate that, but I respect religions
@@worfoz stfu
@@theren2486 You know, it is really a good idea to just shut up when you don't know anything.
I'm always fascinated by all of Religions history. I am an Atheist and study all aspects of religion ever since time immemorial but I respect all religious views to the highest degree. Salam Alaikum dear muslim brothers
I'm also an atheist, however, do not feel the same. Have you read the Quran, what do you think of 98:6, 9:5 or 9:29? Why should one respect a book that says such things against others?
Thanks I like atheists like you
@@theastronomer5800 context is a thing
@@theastronomer5800 You know, one day, you should grab a translation of the Quran and read it contextually, from beginning to the end. Instead of cherry picking verses that are part of a larger conversation and the point that the sura or that part of the sura is trying to make. None of the verses in their proper context say, what you think they are saying.
@@mrweirdguy5249 Of course, and I have three translations at home and have read the Quran twice, along with many hadiths and tafsir. Have you read what Ibn Kathir for example has to say about 9:5 and 9:29? The context seems rather clear to me.
I live in the U.K. most of the mosques don't face towards Mecca. The reason for this is quite simply:most mosques are converted existing buildings like community centres, houses, warehouses and more recently in central London, a Sega Funland. This was probably the case earlier. Inside the mosque we always pray towards Mecca, regardless of the direction of the building.
Dan Gibson investigated the early mosques and their foundation.
@monotfrommeccamonotfrommec1520 similar scenario to what it is now. A lot of mosques were built on the location of existing buildings. It was easier to convert an existing building than raze it and re build it. The Hagia Sofia is a prime example.
This is seen in places like the Hagia Sophia as well. In any case, many original mosques in Islamic lands aren't even fully oriented to Mecca. Premodern astronomical technique was good but not always perfect but has been resolved by aligning the prayer rugs with Mecca even if it makes the orientation within the building somewhat awkward.
@@adnaanu the Hagia Sophia verdict changed everything for Turkey 😂the almighty made nice turkey roast of turkey,, it was a joy.
@monotfrommeccamonotfrommec1520 not sure what you are referring to? What is the Hagia Sofia verdict?
Apart from that, the location of Petra shows that it has to be under Christian Byzantine rule and as far as I know, no other religion survived with a central locus under Byzantines except christianity, the Jews were kicked out of Jerusalem, all folks religion was destroyed so how come the pre-Islamic polytheism survived in the first place and the same goes for Islam, if Petra would have been the actual Makkah, the Byzantine would had nib it in the bud before it reached the Rashidun Era.
yeah I was thinking the same. It would then not only be a muslim conspiracy but a christian one as well. Why in the universe would they do that?
Arabia Petraea was a vassal kingdom of Byzantine ruled by Ghassanid, a Nestorian believers dynasty
@Siraj Haq your thinking is foolish and without credential value if it lacks the evidence and contradict the truth
Yes
@Siraj Haq Qureshis was a north arabian tribe , north arabians go back to a man called Adnan who lived in the time of Jesus , and the name Adnan was very common in the nabataeans civilization i think after the destruction of the nabataeans kingdom by the romans in 100 AD , many tribes migrated to Hijaz one of them was Qureshis that migrated to Mecca the Nabataeans were the descendants of Ishmael so no contradiction with the fact that the prophet is a descandant from Ishmael
When it comes to the way Muslims pray and you have to face in direction of Mecca, I thought as a young teen (Irreligious for as long as i can remember) it was pretty stupid and inconvenient. Later on in life it started making sense. On a personal level you feel connected to a wider Muslim world even when praying alone. On a religious level it makes sense to have something that centralize the faith (holy sites within lots of religions). Also, very interesting video!
Shafiq Sha noo noo we confuse ourselves with ignorance and close minds ! Thats our problem azhab 50 explain it to me plz in quran
The way muslims pray even that isnt in quran ! Who made it up we sont even know , probably the non muslim arabs way of praying! Allah is the same word as well !
@OTTOMANS PEOPLE back box? It's called the kaaba
@@cemasikoglu9597 trying to b funny eh....?
Eerie Von no your just writing to write something answer me with knowledge so we can discuss
People still made mistakes in determining Qibla direction in modern era. The mosques in Indonesia (or Dutch-Indies as named in that era) faced a general West direction before early 20th century. The correct direction is North-West to a certain degree.
Ok, that's fine but what he quickly glossed over is the fact that Dan Gibson went and did the research in person and no one else has he says it's because 'it's not important' but it's because no one dares question Islam. If you know anything about any of the research into this this documentary is worthless at best. He's just using anecdotal information to deny it. Most likely he is an arab Muslim and to them their religion is 100% pure from start to finish zero mistakes and they could never admit they were wrong. He is wrong, I'm pretty certain of that. Dan Gibson isn't an anti Muslim, quite the opposite he loves Islam and the arab countries almost more than anyone I've seen from the west. He would have loved to verify Mecca if his research would have permitted. He is just a historian.
mosques in islamic spain also did this. apparently they held on the opinion that the general direction of prayer was sufficient to make the prayer valid instead if actually facing it
of*
allah is the east and west so quran says dont border about directions, god is everywhere, you dont earn something in positioning your body in this or that direction...
Javanese Kejawen Hindu Suryaman chopping his penis and bowing to desert incestuous tribes! Shame shame
Just found your channel linked by Let’s Talk About Religion, your topics look amazing and I’m so excited to find this channel! (I also had to comment on this video specifically because I named my cat Petra after this amazing location.)
Petra's photos on my Twitter! ASAP!
Al Muqaddimah I sent some over! :)
@@AlMuqaddimahYT If you Don't answer me then I am gonna Stop watching your Videos,my question is that did Aurangzaib regret Killing his Brothers ? Because he must have known that doing so was a Major Sin in ISLAM! Hence did He or Did he Not????? Please do answer don't be rude and arrogant!!!!!
Your capability of non-bias astounds me. I don't know how I could think clearly enough to actually look into this and see a thousand people disparage something I hold so dear.
You're 100% right. For example, I'm a Christian, and I'm fascinated by Islamic history because I didn't learn much about it in school. I trust this guy a lot to give me an unbiased and genuine and scientific conclusion without letting his own religious views misguide his judgement.
@@shafiqsha9875 There is a refutation to this theory available on KZhead kzhead.info/channel/PLW1vycCEWR7EhexQWeJrw0701YITXjxZe.html I am not aware of any western leading scholar who has agreed with Dan Gibson's theory, but rather many have disagreed, primarily because he doesn't analise his sources and because he doesn't take into account how the early Muslims calculated the Qibla.
You are astounded much too easily!
@IIOO Im sorry what are you trying to say? I don’t understand
He has some liberal bias but that's fine
I truly appreciate the improvements you made to your speech pattern. I was watching some of your earliest videos a while ago and you are a lot more understandable now =) Greetings from Germany
@dorderre with more followers comes more responsibility...
WELL, ITS ALL THE MAGIC OF ARAB MONEY! IT DOES WONDERS!! 😄😄😄😆😆😆😁😁😁😎😎
They're like flat earthers, it boggles the mind.
Perhaps
@@judicatorhurayth1927 The funny thing is actually a Flat Earther and Quranist Sam Gerrans actually believes in this Petra Theory 😂
That is the weirdest guy i ever seen!!!@@Saif_VAGABOND_Talpur
@@Saif_VAGABOND_Talpur what a fool
@@----f Who?
Your videos are so fascinating! Good job 😊
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe. Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83 The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning. Petra The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow. Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
“A revision of history, ON THIS SCALE, in that period is IMPOSSIBLE. I cannot stress this enough.” Mic drop. Thank you. If Petra were the Real Mecca, one would think the Byzantines would have mentioned that they were fighting the people and worshippers of the 'mythical holy shrine’ of Petra. There is this whole body of orientalists and now Evangelicals who keep coming up with really strange theories. They need to be called out publicly.
The Byzantines make no mention of the religion of the Arabs. There is a Byzantine document saying Mecca was in Arabia Patrea. So yes they mention Petra
They tried everything. Even made up strange idea such as Prophet Muhammad was trained by church. Lmao
@@wamulyati3605 🤣 they’re literally stupid
@@RedWolf75 can u provide a link or source to that document u claim? or are u just spewing nonsense?
@@RedWolf75 The suggestion that it was Petra and not Mecca is still wrong. The Quran itself refers to the Nabateans of Petra and condemns them for their polytheism (Quran 15:80-83). Why would the Quran refer to the Nabateans as a different community than the Quraish? It's because they are different.
I'm a Christian, and I'm here bcz I like to see both sides of the story. You do have good points here, and I like that you have a more open-minded approach like when you say that there are obscure things in the beginning of the post Mohammad history. I think that we need more research from both sides as you mention it. I'll stay tuned for more videos since I'm interested on the Middle East, more precisely Iran.
Although that he needs to assume a massive cover-up over a long time and a large and diverse area, with _all_ books mentioning an important fact being changed, should ring all the alarm bells that you can imagine. History doesn't work that way; if someone needs to claim something like that for their revolutionary new theory to work, you can usually bet that it's wrong.
@@varana yeah, I think Christians and Jews can use the same argument, how their books could be changed as muslins claim without anyone noticing it, and when that modification could have taken place..., But here we are talking about Islam, so I'm not bringing that here. I have my pros and cons, since the Muslim faith was relatively new and I don't know if in every corner of the empire people were well aware of all things,at least the common people those that weren't able to read arabic. But I'm not adamant about it.
This explanation is as bad as the explanation provided for why Mary is confused with Mary the sister of Aaron and Moses, and why the quran says that Jews consider Uzzair as the Son of God. It is called clutching for straws.
Actually a city in the North completing down plays how importantance the Hadj is. Your second point of rewriting history by later authors, draws into question the reliably of the recorded Quran.
tdwebste3 The Quran was supposedly revealed in 620, an entire Quran was discovered dating from 640 pretty much the same, twenty years is not a lot for the Quran to have been changed so much, and there have been Quran pages discovered at the time of Muhammad carbon dated back to his time, which are the same.
As an arab with much globalisation influence, I got back into religion because of english videos like this, jazak allah khair
Shame.
I am from Pakistan and many of the mosques I have been to don't directly face Mecca. Because, it simply doesn't matter. The direction we pray towards is not in the direction the mosque is facing, it's Mecca (Rugs are not aligned with the walls of mosque). Direction of mosque is not even an argument in the first place. It's such a random thing to pick and make a propaganda. Not to mention all the historical facts that were presented in this video.
Yes bro exactly what I was tbinking
Interesting hypothesis, I know the comments will be interesting as well.
Actually these missionary & atheists couldn't convince muslim. Now they are trying to confuse muslims with many things.
@@shafiqsha9875 There is a refutation to this theory available on KZhead kzhead.info/channel/PLW1vycCEWR7EhexQWeJrw0701YITXjxZe.html I am not aware of any western leading scholar who has agreed with Dan Gibson's theory, but rather many have disagreed, primarily because he doesn't analise his sources and because he doesn't take into account how the early Muslims calculated the Qibla.
@@TahaWasiq He said Muslim pray to Black stones. It said all about his knowledge about Islam.
@@shafiqsha9875 Virtually all of the western scholars, even the atheist ones disagree with Gibson. I just can't see a serious historian agreeing with such absurd theory
@Siraj Haq you make a pretty good point. Arabic was a backwater language just spoken amongst the Arabs who were tributaries of either the Byzantines or Persians, who know how much those dominant cultural influences seeped into the Arabs and therefore Islam unknowingly before the Islamization of Persia.
Actually from an Arab Egyptian Muslim perspective, I feel like many people specially foreigners deal with Islam as an ancient lost civilization and ancient book that we are trying to understand, As if we found stones and temples and hieroglyphs writings and then we knew that there were pharos and ancient Egyptians and we try to understand their history, They deal with Islam as the same thing, Man if you are raised in a house and then left your family and lived somewhere else and a foreigner came to you with a million evidence and papers and witnesses to proof that your old house is actually not here it is in the other street you will not believe him because it's not an ancient temple, you lived here you had a family here. Guys, Mecca and the qibla and the prophet life and the Kaaba are sooooo holy for us, we know each detail of the prophet life in Mecca and in Madina, No one ever can change this things even after all this years, or even after only 10 years, you can't even say that Rome was in Germany then it was shifted to Italy, because it is strong history for you, and mecca is not history for us, it is history and still present we are still living and praying facing it in all the globe from the beginning of Islam, we are not trying to discover a lost civilization here.
These "researchers" are explaining questions that nobody ever asked.
@Saad Bin Masud historical flaws?
@Saad Bin Masud you're free to publish your own scholarly works in that field, let's see your arguments and evidence.
@Saad Bin Masud Eww disgusting, go away.
@Saad Bin Masud Historical flaws like what ?! Can you give me examples
That was an excellent debunking. Thank You.
It wasn’t why would the Quran exaggerate things according to him,saying i an agricultural land when it’s not if that’s exaggerated what else is
It is mentioend clearly in the Quran Surah al-Baqarah 144 "We have seen the turning of your face towards heaven. So We will turn you towards a direction that will satisfy you. So turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque. And wherever you may be, turn your faces towards it" the sacred mosque in Mecca
When I travelled to the UK from south Asia, I prayed towards the west instinctively for about a month until I realised that mecca is actually in the south east of England. Many of the early Muslims didnt even see a proper world map in their lifetime. So they may have prayed towards the direction where their instincts directed.
Arabs not muslims
you know the world is a globs right. so ultimately you would have been right. Just the longer way around lol.
The quran instructs us to pray anywere between the hemisphere which includes the qibla.
Taha Wasiq all muslims should face one direction but it has to be correct dont you think ?
@@shafiqsha9875 at this point you're just spamming the same thing on every comment. I dont think anything you say can be taken seriously
Thanks for doing an open-minded, as unbiased as possible analysis of Islamic history! You'd make the Muslim scholars of the Golden Age proud.
He didn't address any of the actual points of Gibson. Why do the mosques point towards Petra to within an error of only 2.9 degrees? Gibson's work is also supported by linguistic, epigraphic, numismatic and trade route studies over the last few decades - they all point to northern origins of Islam.
@@theastronomer5800 hmm. Good points. And given that Islam is highly influenced by Christianity and Judaism, it would not be surprising to have a Northern origin like the other two abrahamic faiths.
Regardless, just the fact that he's willing to explore this topic impresses me. Modern Muslim thinking is much too conservative, and this is on the border of sensitive as far as mainstream islamic topics go.
@@maisa5943 That is very true. I have seen too many Muslims dismiss any historical evidence as soon as it contradicts their traditional narrative. I find the history very fascinating. Have you read the books by Dr. Puin and Dr. Ohlig by any chance, super interesting! (Early Islam, and The Hidden Origins of Islam). They contain many contributions by scholars in different fields. I find the early Islamic coins very interesting myself! Jay Smith did a decent survey of them if you're have never looked into them (he's a Christian apologists, so you can ignore the few times he talks about Jesus, but his historical summaries are good to listen to). Cheers!
Dan Gibson has 120+ videos on this subject, (=EXTENSIVE RESEARCH) now muslims are all about WISHFULL THINKING concerning the DEMOLISHING MISTAKES IN ISLAM, but they should realize a 10 minute video, is really not going to answer the EXISTING PROBLEMS in this case about PETRA/Mecca....do more research muslims, get your brains active
MALAY SUBTITLES Part 4 of 4 13:31 terdapat banyak kiblat. Namun, bagi sesiapa yang biasa dengan budaya Arab, ini adalah perkara biasa. 13:37 Orang Arab selalu menggunakan kiasan seperti ini. Ini bukan metafora yang asli, 13:42 sebenarnya dalam Al-Quran. Dalam ayat 148 bab kedua Al-Quran, dikatakan, 13:47 "Semua orang berpaling ke arah mereka sendiri [doa]" 13:50 Maksudnya, semua agama mempunyai kiblat masing-masing. Ini datang dengan segera 13:56 setelah pertukaran kiblat menjadi Tempat Berkumpul Terlarang yang diperintahkan dalam ayat 144. 14:03 Mengatakan bahawa kita adalah orang yang mempunyai kiblat yang sama bermaksud kita menganut agama yang sama. 14:08 Pada masa itu, istilah Muslim tidak digunakan. Sebenarnya, petikan dari al-Tabari yang digunakan oleh Dan Gibson 14:13 tidak lengkap. Baris seterusnya mengatakan, "Kami bukan orang Turki atau Daylamites" 14:18 Maksudnya, "Kami bukan non-Muslim". Metafora digunakan lagi beberapa halaman di mana 14:23 seseorang berkata kepada saudara ibn az-Zubayr, “Kamu adalah orang yang, dalam satu pagi, membunuh 14:28 tujuh ribu orang yang berpaling ke arah kiblat. " Bukan kiblat KAMI tetapi Kiblat. 14:35 Ini adalah metafora yang tidak difahami oleh Dan Gibson secara harfiah. 14:40 Pada akhirnya, terdapat banyak misteri mengenai Islam awal. Banyak fakta telah menyebabkan banyak perkara 14:45 soalan yang tidak dijawab. Walau bagaimanapun, hipotesis yang dikemukakan oleh Dan Gibson 14:50 tidak sesuai sama ada. Mustahil untuk menutup skala ini. Lebih senang dibayangkan 14:56 sejarawan awal membesar-besarkan perincian mengenai Mekah daripada membayangkan semakan semula 15:01 sejarah pada skala luar biasa ini. Walaupun semua ini masuk akal dalam dokumentari, 15:07 apabila anda melihat dunia Islam yang lebih luas pada masa itu, tidak ada cara untuk ini masuk akal. 15:12 Ini sebenarnya adalah keluhan yang saya ada untuk kebanyakan orang di internet. Orang sering memilih 15:16 menyusun sekumpulan fakta dari internet tanpa cuba memahami konteksnya. Sebuah acara 15:20 tidak berlaku sendirian, ia dipengaruhi oleh dunia di sekitarnya. Semasa anda cuba memeriksa sama ada 15:26 cerita itu sahih, anda periksa persekitaran dan konteksnya untuk melihat apakah itu benar-benar mungkin. Malangnya, 15:32 idea berani yang seolah-olah menggegarkan kepercayaan lebih dari satu bilion orang baru saja terpilih 15:36 oleh orang tanpa banyak kajian lebih lanjut. Jumpa awak lain kali. 15:40 Sekiranya anda ingin mengetahui lebih lanjut mengenai sejarah Islam awal, Muslim Sepanyol dan Khilafah Abbasiyah, 15:45 lihat senarai main di saluran saya. Jika anda suka saluran dan jika anda mampu, 15:49 janjikan satu dolar atau lebih di Patreon untuk menyokong saluran tersebut.
tkasih!
@@fnulnu6 Sama-sama!
I watched the docunentary of Dan Gibson about Petra and as Muslim, Qur'an is the best guide and we should not question it. Peace be upon us all
Hahaha sure buddy.
Dan is fool
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe. Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83 The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning. Petra The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow. Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
"A bold idea that seems to shake the faith of more than a billion people just gets picked up by people without much further research" Damnn this is true for all religions tbh!
Agreed
m.kzhead.info/sun/e6qrYrWAaHqjaHk/bejne.html
m.kzhead.info/sun/nc-QhsemapGcdaM/bejne.html
Well, dan gibsons theory is very good too, im convinced
@@braham_1137 kzhead.info/channel/PLEJMLhtoQWIRXK9o-hv6eyNXxUpEeb5X_.html
this theory isn't even believable and the moment he said there was a massive cover up, i knew he had no real evidence
@OTTOMANS PEOPLE Masjidil Haram in Makkah was not the first mosque bro
@OTTOMANS PEOPLE ok
Thank you for this video. I was very conflicted and confused after watching Dan Gibson. You really set the record straight. Thank you. May Allah Bless you. We need more muslims scholars/researches in the Islamic faith.
Dan Gibson is a Christian Romans 3:7 - The New International Version (NIV) 7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?”
@@Ra3bAbdulRa7man can you expand a bit more and not take verses out of context. ' Why not say-as some slanderously claim that we say-“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!' firstly what you may have interpreted about this verse is that people were saying 'if we lie about something that brings good (e.g. in this case dan Gibson would be winning Christian converts)then why do we get condemned' but what is actually means is 'if us being doing bad things shows Gods goodness (like showing how good is God compared to us sinners) which is glorifying God what is the point of doing good when we can do bad and still glorify God.' so the people were not saying what you think they were saying and Paul responds by saying don't do that as it is not good. these are worded different to help you understand- But if, as a result of my falsehood, God demonstrates his truthfulness, to his greater glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8 And why not say, as some people slanderously accuse us of proposing, “Let us do evil so that good may result”? Such people deserve their condemnation. - new catholic bible 7 A person might say, “When I lie, it really gives him glory, because my lie shows God’s truth. So why am I judged a sinner?” 8 It would be the same to say, “We should do evil so that good will come.” Some people find fault with us and say we teach this, but they are wrong and deserve the punishment they will receive.- new century version essentially the 'some' are not saying that 'if i lie for a good cause why am i punished' but 'some' are saying that 'when i lie it shows that i am wrong and God is right (for example i might say that there is only is only 1 translations of bible which is of course false but by this statement i am indirectly giving glory to God as i would be a liar by saying this and God would never claim that as he is truthful therefore the contrast between me and God and me would show his greatness)
If you were conflicted and confused by Dan Gibson then I'm afraid you have very weak iman. How about you learn about your deen from Islamic scholars instead of shayateen
@@GTGforever turn to Allah now as Jesus did and all the prophets before it's too late
@@arabianknight0000 you are blind to truth bro and ignorant of it you scholars lie to you
Even here in Malaysia, a couple of mosques built 30 years ago were not accurately faced to Kaaba, not until recently ( 5 years ago or so) that the Qibla of the mosques were corrected after recalculation. And this happened at the time where gps exist, so it's totally understandable if the ancient arab miscalculated their Qiblat way before computer ever existed.
So in Indonesia
Become non muslim leave islam don't believe in child rapist Muhammed ✌️🪓🪓🪓🪓🕋🕋🕋
lol I find it funny that non-muslims find this misdirected qibla as "suspicious" and try to creates controversy over it, when us muslims are so accustomed to find carpets that set up at odd angle against the wall because the mosque was built in wrong direction.
Yes but early mosques analized by Gipson that pointed to the same spot(petra) that is not random. And that is the point and mistery of the research. Not that some face in other direction but that a group of early mosques faces petra. Why?
When I was in Alexandria in Egypt, I was always told to give my back to the sea and turn a little to the left; that way, I should face Mecca, but who knows, I might have been facing India, hahaha.
@OTTOMANS PEOPLE yeah ik only the sauds and some tribe in saudi Arabia are allowed to go inside
@Estex There are apps that tell you the directions. But as el muqqadima said, while qibla is vital, we usually tend to face a general direction that should technically make us face Mecca if I am in an unfamiliar environment. But for example, if you are in my home and ask me about qibla, I should know where it is since it is my home after all. Basically, it is the sense of direction that guides you.
@Estex what my school teach is muslim face mecca for praying but the actual kiblat is ur sincerity to face kiblat not the mecca itslef, mecca is kinda symbolization to help us show and rationalize our faith. I mean praying can take us at least a minute and many people more than 5 mnute, when praying on ship or plane we can't ask the captain to not making any directional change so we stay facing mecca
I have a question.... if you face the Kabah anywhere in the World and then turn backwards meaning the Kabah is in the back... You still face the Kabah technically...
@@CharDhue I mean you are metaphorically facing the place where god technically dwell but god dwells everywhere
Thanks for this clarification. I grew up in a muslim household, I am not religious myself and I had the open mind to accept Dan Gibson's hypothesis, I even got excited about it. However, later I started to notice that he had missionary tendencies when he actually started diverting from archaeology and instead talking theology, and most of the times, as you have mentioned, took things literally and transliterated certain statements, that being an Arab, I knew were not accurately interpreted. For example, he seemed so desperate to prove to muslims that their prayers won't be answered since they're not pointing the right way, which having been raised up a muslim, I could easily debunk by saying that God takes the intention into account first. Also he projected a lot of things from the Christian way of crediting worship and assumed in Islam it would be the same. I sent him several emails asking him why he's trying to debunk Islam when there are innumerable theories of Jesus Christ not dying on the cross and others questioning his divinity. He never replied.
Trust me, there were more than a few charlatans like Gibson who masquerade under the guise of academia but instead are missionaries
That's why you should look for professionals with no agenda to defend.
@@glasgowblackchigowski6117 Gibson spent over 25 yrs studying in arabia and living through it. don't tell me you know more about the culture than he does. u should credit him for doing what muslims r not doing at all: RESEARCH.
@@cuteawais Gibson's research is as good as my failed school project, there are countless other researchers other than him who are more competent and don't share his views at all, that's historically speaking. But if we come to faith, picking on myslims saying that they don't research their religion as much as the others do, that's big fat lie. Muslims are most knowledgeable about their religion more than any faith in the world, we know our religion inside and outside, unlike mr Gibson's faith that makes him a lot more biased in doing more speculations than real research.
@Saad Bin MasudI studied at Jesuit school, I know what I'm talking about
Pre-Islamic Arab were very good to pointing directions. It was easy to pointing Petra or other city at that time... #peace 😊
Thanks for addressing this. I was somewhat convinced by this theory and have been waiting for a solid rebuttal, which you’ve delivered. شكرا
@Al Mudarabah wow a biased video you yourself uploaded
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe. Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83 The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning. Petra The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow. Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
Petra was at the edge of the Roman Empire, home of Muhammad’s clan. Religious thinkers gathered at the edges of the empire escaping orthodoxy, Roman had a long history of inventing religions, to cement the army together and control the countryside cheaply. I find it hard that Petra wasn’t the intellectual heart of the original movement and going on Christian religious sites Mecca was chosen later as being better for cash flow and safer from annihilating attack, Petra being severely damaged by earth quakes
This channel is seriously underrated!!! I seriously recommend doing more collabs because more ppl need to find you! (It's how I found you. your collab on your did mohammad exist video)
I'm so glad I found this, bringing some much-needed objectivity on this subject. Your fairness and well-documented evidence is a good reminder: No matter what one's personal feelings are about a subject as sensitive as this, as a religion it must be respected.
Additional objective information kzhead.info/sun/nrWsmNqam3V4oZs/bejne.htmlsi=42XZNN2ZOrltfJWh
there is a city near to Mecca called Ta'if and it was a good agriculture center so Mecca can have a population of few thousands in the 7th century AD
Excellent. Clear. Methodical. Point-by-point. A super rebuke.
We actually do have a few very early non Muslim sources mentioning the Kaa'ba and it's location in Arabia. Read the Khusistan chronicle written in 650s CE.
And many early islamic inscription flourish in Arabia.. And petra is very silent..
There is a masjid(mosque) in Makkah with a rock inscription slab dating back to the early 600s... I visited the masjid & i read the rock inscription.
@@yakmi1116 i don't know about that, but Hejaz is very flourish on islamic inscription..
@@ekadria-bo4962 because hejaz have huge mountains and big cities like in Taif & Thaqif & have large fertile cities oasis like Madina & it's close to Tihama & Yemen..... There's no doubt that nowadays Makkah is the same as the pre-islamic Makkah.
@@yakmi1116 there is no pre.-islamic makkah
Fantastic work .. thank you.
Nice video, good research and editing, YYou deserve more subscribers and view. Greetings from Italy
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe. Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83 The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning. Petra The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow. Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
This reminds me of the hypothesis that early Arab ideological conflict was an extension of the rivalry between the Ghassanids and Lakhmids. Just wish we knew more specifically.
watch the channel "sneakerscorner" it will open up ur mind about easily islamic history. gem of a channel
@@cuteawais lier propaganda christen machinery channel
@@izharehaq it gives u facts with proof. That’s all I need. If u don’t want to believe it that’s ur weakness. U can’t accept the truth
@@cuteawais Don’t speak about truth when you write ‘ur’ instead of ‘your’.
I want you to make a series about Spreading Islam In Nusantara Archipelago (Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei) it will be very Interesting cause spreading Islam in that region is even more peaceful than how Islam Spread in the Middle East
Sufi merchants!
9 sufis from two periods of times I believe, started from abbasid era
How Islam spread in middle east is based on tyranny of Ummayyad and Abbasid. The struggling to bring back as Rashiduum Caliphate is impossible and still today!
No mosque in the world is build facing ka’bah , it’s not a requirement, though some may have build. But in all mosques prayer are performed facing in the direction of the ka’bah in Makkah this is the most important thing.
Thanks for making this video...
As strange a theory as it is; it would kind of make sense that Abraham would build the Ka'bah in Petra rather than Mecca - as it's much more closer to the other areas associated with Abraham and the places he and his sons travelled too.
Avi lipkin and anis sorrosh did research on this in order to refute kaba was built by Abraham, the research stagnant with conclusions it was built by Jewish setlers.. And it's not Petra but the current one (today Mecca)
Yeah made more sense if Abraham made ka’bah in petra than in mecca because he left his wife hagar and his son. No way they can survive in a small desert town without somewhere to plant a wheat or palm tree to eat. And in islam it was described being a big city as traders pass by to collect water from zam zam well, but if many trader passes by then at least it will be mentioned in a map or something
Actually these missionary & atheists couldn't convince muslim. Now they are trying to confuse muslims with many things.
@@muhammadridhosinuraya Lol, your words "in Islam" is about the later period where Mecca developed as City, but not yet in Hagar and Ismail time.
hi could you please make a list of all the journals, pdf's and books you cite and read, it seems interesting and would like to dive deeply into the Islamic history
this was well done
Dude you are awesome and have common sense to a degree that is rare in these times and I for one am excited to hear more from you thank you.
Thank for this. I'm a student of Islam and Middle Eastern studies from Jerusalem, Israel. And you convinced me of the inconsistencies of Dan Gibson's hypothesis.
Avi lipkin did much better works than him ,he's a jewish anti islam
@@inongbalee3092 Who's Avi Lipkin? What are you talking about?
@@NP1066 he's a jewish anti Muslims just like I said ..he wrote the book return to Mecca... he did lots of academic research for this matter and its far more convincing than Gibson one ..such as who built the kaba,
@@inongbalee3092 You're presenting him as an anti-muslim and you expect me to like or be interested with what I'm hearing? That's a turn-off right away. As a Jew myself I'm against people who are anti-muslims. I wouldn't dedicate my studies to Islam if I didn't like and respect muslim people and Islam.
@@NP1066 my emphasis is even though hes an anti islam he still presenting reliable academic reports on his research which later he compile into a books ..his research started from moses exodus so it's cover Petra, though his conclusions are differ with muslim stand point but it's not an issue
Excellent arguments refuting Dan Gibson's theory. Another argument against it comes to mind based on your discussion of Umayyad rivalry with the Abbasids. Would not Shia Muslims have also criticized moving the Kaaba from Petra to Mecca? The absence of any such criticism speaks volumes to me. Keep up the good work. I subscribed, and, God willing, will help on Patron.
Patreon.
Shia religion was created in the third Islamic century. 😏
@@Irfan--Khan Without lies Islam dies.
@@worfoz • That's your personal opinion. 😏
Do you know that the Qarmatians stole the Black Stone for thirty years and transported it to Al-Ahsa, which is east of Saudi Arabia, and then ordered the Arabs to go on pilgrimage to it? What do you think was the response of the Arabs? The Arabs ignored their demands and made a pilgrimage to Mecca because the land is holy, understand?
For the first two hundred years, mosques were orientated toward Petra, not toward Mecca. Somebody, after two hundred years switched it to Mecca.
Lol this is a lie. We have very old masjids dating back to the time of the Prophet. Search masjid al qiblatayn in somalia. 2 qibla since it used to be towards Jerusalem but got changed to Makkah during the prophets lifetime.
@@duckgoat7570 Thank you for attempted rightmakin. Article in wikipedia doesn't say how the mosque was dated. All I know is that there has been much deception since the very beginnin so, without bein an intensive scholar on the topic, I have no way to validate nor to invalidate any particular statement I am not interested to spend much time findin details, but would rather see a finished presentation by someone else. Therefore, without bein willin to spend the time, I cannot discuss it with you in a way that might bring, to you, satisfaction. However I will warn you against "conformism" (which is horizontal or social) versus actually askin "God" for the answer (vertical), which he promised that he will give if we ask.
Dan Gibson dedicated a lifetime to these discoveries. The more astonishing thing is that islamists in the middle age (or whatever period that was) decided to change facts, erase evidence and started to live by lies ... and they still do to this day. Apparently to avoid the pain of being wrong and deceived and lied to and telling lies for hundreds of years. But is that the reason for the violent nature of islam?
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe. Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83 The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning. Petra The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow. Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
Did you not watch the video? It gives a perfect explanation as to why that is
I take issue with what the author claims are Dan Gibson's "conclusions". All Mr. Gibson did in his video was present hypothesis, which is far different than a conclusion. What explanation do you have regarding such things as peoples, geography, and vegetation in the Quran referring to things more closely found in the Petra area than in Mecca? The author acknowledges that some things may be lost and exaggerated in early histories. Ok, what explanation do you have for what Mr. Gibson observes? How do you explain the total lack of archeological evidence of anything in Mecca that predates 800 AD?
Great comment.
kzhead.info/channel/PLEJMLhtoQWIRXK9o-hv6eyNXxUpEeb5X_.html Also 2nd century Mecca The historic consensus in academic scholarship has long been that "Macoraba", the place mentioned in Arabia Felix by Claudius Ptolemy, is Mecca.[24] More recent study has questioned this association.[25] Many etymologies have been proposed: the traditional one is that it is derived from the Old South Arabian root M-K-R-B which means "temple".[25]
Detective o will made a really good playlist for all of this. You should check it out and you should watch all the videos as it goes in parts of course.
The burden of proof is upon you and not upon those who believe it’s Mecca. It is totally impossible for Gibsons ‘hypothesis’ to be true.
@@AaronHafeezGFX Actually, the burden of proof resides entirely with Islam. They are the ones making outrageous historical claims. Dan Gibson challenges that, and the muslims don't like being challenged.
Your closing statement alone single-handedly put the entirety of Gibson's research and works invalidated and cremated to dust. My respect and honour to you in helping out the doubts to whomever question about it. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👍🏻👌🏻
I love him for that
@khairularchi You don't seem to understand that Mecca is a theory, just like Petra is theory. If Petra does not work, this does not mean Mecca works. Both can be non-starters. Mecca being the setting for many of the Qur'an's surahs is impossible. I don't accept the Petra thesis, and I certainly don't accept the Hijazi Mecca either. This video does absolutely no discussion of 7th century history.
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe. Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83 The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning. Petra The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow. Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
They were very good at geometry and maths. The Greeks learned it all from ancient Mesopotamia. By the time all these Mosques were built this knowledge was everywhere.
I am descendant of Muhammad through Henry the Fourth of Navarre.
The Greek historian Diodorus Siculus writes about Arabia in his work Bibliotheca historica, describing a holy shrine: "And a temple has been set up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians".[41] Claims have been made this could be a reference to the Ka'bah in Mecca. However, the geographic location Diodorus describes is located in northwest Arabia, around the area of Leuke Kome, closer to Petra and within the former Nabataean Kingdom and Roman province of Arabia Petraea.
Interesting can you provide the source 🤔
@@umaryusuf537 "Diodorus Siculus writes about Arabia in his work Bibliotheca historica"
@@adamroodog1718 interesting I wonder what city he’s referring to coils be Petra could be something else we have way to know. Also I looked at Dan Gibsons claims and there are a lot of issues with a lot of his points from him Mis translating words to using fabricated sources to not being fully fair according to his own judgement. With that his claim isn’t strong enough and I don’t by the fact that Petra was the first Qibla. What do you think?
@@umaryusuf537 to tell you the truth umar i dont know and i dont know if anyone truely will know now after so much time. the qibla of the early mosques seems like there is something to it. what that something is again i dont know. the saudis remove anything we could learn about early islam like aisha's house, now a car park and public toilet, the graves of the companions of the prophet, the contents of the kaaba and they were even going to destroy the green mosque during the first gulf war. the cave of hira looks man made to me. especially the roof. the etymology of the word mecca is something like in phonecian is ruined, old arabic is santuary, and narrow, which also seems to fit with petra. in the koran there are alot of traders and merchants. i think its described as the mother of all cities with roads leading north south east and west. that doesnt really fit with mecca. if you were going to jedda for example you would have to leave the plateau go down into the desert to get to mecca and then up again to get back on the road to jedda. ive often thought that if i was islamic and was on the one haj of my poor life would i go to mecca or petra? my answer to myself was i would go to mecca but i would also visit petra just in case. haha. im sitting on the fence dan gibson may or may not be self serving, or blinded by what he has found or even just plain wrong. alot of people who do things like this focus on their discovery and then see it everywhere in everything. but he brings up enough questions that need answers whether he is wrong or not. im interested in the truth. im not religious and not trying to say islam is wrong, im just trying to understand a very interesting part of history. all religions i have studied have this period after the main man dies and before the rules of the religion are set that i find fascinating. budha for example didnt want anyone to pray to him. he wanted the people to focus on learning from his teachings. but people being people made him into a god. at his temples which are called a stupas they paint the face of budha but without ears so budha can never hear the people praying to him. christianity was for jews only until paul returned from corinth with money from the new converts. and now maybe mecca isnt where it is supposed to be. or the inscriptions on the al aqsa mosque dont appear anywhere in the koran, whats up with that. its just something i find really interesting i hope you and your family are happy and healthy and you had a wonderful eid with them recently best of luck adam
@@adamroodog1718 interesting analysis you have. Yeah Dan Gibson does bring up some interesting questions but as far as I’ve seen most have been answered there’s a 30 part series on KZhead by a Muslim KZhead who address many of Dans points I cab link it if your interested in watching it
Nice response. Great for on-going discussion. Thank you. Your comments about Spanish Qibla's are valid, but Dan Gibson only proposes his idea as a possible explanation. As for the cover-up, if Islam (based on leading figures of the Arab conquest) was systematized under the Umayyads and revised under the Abbasids as the glue that held the empire together, then a cover-up is easily acceptable.
The Egyptians were happy to chop of the faces of previous Pharaohs.ie why is there a later head on the older body of the Sphinx?
Thank you. Only after watching and listening to all of Dan Gibson's video. One can find anomalies. Appreciate your labour and time to give another perspective.
Really good video. I agree that a cover up of this scale simply wouldn't be possible in this context. It almost reminds me of the phantom time hypothesis.
Man, that is a weird conspiracy theory.
Nah there people that early Muslims were Christian
This Theory of Dan Gibson only works if according to him and his ilks Arabs removed the mentioning of Petra Qibla from their Islamic Sources!
Allah itself is an outcome of conspiracy theory
@@adwaitvedant3297 wot?
@@adwaitvedant3297 this then leaves the Arab Christians then in a real dilemma? 🤔
this petra hypothesis is so absurd that it doesn’t need any videos being made to disprove it
of course not - how could a real muslim think otherwise... lol
The hypothesis aims to explain why the early qiblas face towards Petra - that is an archaeological fact. How would you explain it? Gibson's work is well supported by many other researchers over the last few decades. Linguistic and epigraphic studies for example show the likely norther origins of the Quran, numismatic studies show that early Islamic coins were minted in Jordan and Syria for ~100 years after, none in Mecca/Medina. Trade route studies show that Mecca was not know as an important trade city and is not mentioned until after Muhammad
@@theastronomer5800 Islamic history is only about 1400 years old. That's not very old in historical sense. It was well into the time when humanity has started keeping written history. So, the idea that the name and location of a city-A was changed to city-B (which is 1200 kms away from city-A) seems far-fetched. With thousands of pilgrims coming to the city every year, even since pre-islamic times, such a conspiracy is very hard to execute by anyone. Then there is the medina period during life-time of Prophet Muhammad. Prophet migrated to medina on foot, crossed the dessert in 8 days. Thats doable for 450kms, but is it for 1250kms? Then we have battles of Badr, Uhud, Trench etc. Where armies are coming from makkah, and medina to fight in between. On this hypothesis, the non-muslim armies would be coming from Petra. Note that by the time of Ummayads, Islam has already spread much farther than Arabian peninsula. Persian and Roman lands were also already captured much earlies. So muslims were coming every year to perform hajj from as far as India, to Morroco. So would be simply impossible for anyone to change a city and relocate kaaba in all historical written records, and oral traditions.
Great video! Great rebuttal
I did a quick Wikipedia research about Dan Gibson and according to the Wiki article, Gibson is a self-published author with no educational or academic background. If anyone knows more about this, please comment below.
He is dumb I have also watched his video,, complete ignorance
What about his arguments and evidences?
As well, other than muslims in these empires, there were muslims in abysinia or ethiopia or habesha, in turk areas were abbasid caliphate didn't reach, new muslims in Indonesia. Like, somebody would have noticed at least, this hypothesis is nonsense
Wtf I live in Jordan and this is my first time hearing about this
@Port Sap no it's not
Man this is just a theory to make muslim confused they want to question our faith by saying/writing stupid things
Recently discovered this channel. I'm loving it. Minor complaint: Could you lower the volume on the page turn sound effect every time you introduce a new source or scholar? It's a bit distracting. Otherwise, I love this shit. Good work.
Biggest hole in the Petra theory is the zamzam well. One can't shift a spring well from Petra to Mecca. Zamzam well was pre Islamic n historically documented
I must say I found both Dan Gibson and the cambridge academic very convincing. As a sunni, born Pakistani, who spent some early years in Saudia....I cannot fathom how Mecca could have possibly existed as a city which the Holy Quran describes. Even more is how would Hazrat Hussain go to Koofa from Mecca in 28 days...that is somewhat possible from Petra but not from present day Mecca. Dan also talks about a city called Becca which is near Petra which could have been Mecca. Kaaba , is shape of cube which was a ubiquitous structure found in Arabia ......Muslim intelligentia and their prized books were decimated in 1200 by the Changez Khan....there has never been a voice of reason or dissent after that holocaust.....everything following 1200 -1300 has been tutored under state supervision of Ottomans until 1900's when Middle eastern fiedoms started to assert themselves. The more people find it religiously difficult to accept alternate reality of Mecca, the more I am convinced they have something they feel insecure about.
you are correct. Do you have some material I can read on about Changez changing things
I perfectly agree. The Islamic Golden Age ended due to a reason. Hopefully we can overcome that mistake and go back to reason. And that’s coming from a non-Muslim (me).
@Saad Bin Masud I know.
The Islamic "Golden Age" ended because of the crystallisation of Sunni Islam. The Islamic world cannot "go back to reason" as long as Sunni orthodoxy breathes. So one might ask, why was there an age of reason in Iraq and Persia for 300 years. Well, it is precisely because of how cosmopolitan the society and the intellectual classes were. People then and there could actually read Ancient Greek and Persian (and in the 8th/9th centuries, Sanskrit too!!). Islamic legal scholarship was more of a cottage industry, which in today's Near Eastern Studies scholarship is magnified beyond belief. Once the Ulema moved out of their cottage industry role to become the dominant side-kick or dominant full-stop institution in the Islamic world, reason and creativity and culture/arts were soon to die out. There is a serious contradiction in calling this Golden Age "Islamic" given that Islam (whatever Islam often means) played the most central role in extinguishing free thought.@@kekkek2852
i can't get the free trail The requested URL was not found on this server.
Thank you for explaining the context! I saw that documentary a while back and I felt that such a huge cover up would have been difficult to manage back in the day. Even nowadays it would be difficult! Really enjoying your channel!
Its not really a cover up. The Hadith show at the time, it starts always pointing to mecca.
Also ....all the different Islamic sects and empires who hated each other would have never agreed to the location of Kaaba being in mecca if it wasn't true .........I just find it hard to believe for every muslim sect to agree with this alleged "cover up" of Islamic history lol
Why would it be a cover up during those days? They just pray to the black stone... The black stone move and so they move the direction of the praying.... Today, they have an issue with the Hajj that you want to be the location where Mohamed was. But it might be no important for them.
You have missed the most important aspect. The archeology of Mecca. Even we assume Mecca was a bustling settlement with lots of people is an exaggeration, the existence of pre-Islamic pagan temples is not invalidated, otherwise Mohammed wouldn't even bother to preach them. If there is no people to preach whom do you preach? Which means there was a settlement of people in/around Mecca. But strangely, the archeology is severely lacked in this regard. There is no archeological finding in Mecca that shows there was any kind of permanent settlement, with temples, homes, public squares and so on. Also the descriptions of the surroundings (which is very scarce) in hadeeths align more with those of Petra than Mecca. Moreover, Petra being the birth place of Islam has no consequence on the Islamic religion. It doesn't make their beliefs false or anything, except how the rituals are conducted during the Hajj. I don't understand why Muslims are so afraid to explore this idea. Furthermore, your claim of early Arabs being bad at finding correct direction and their expertise in the mathematics related to it, is false. They WERE, in fact, master navigators, which has been proven by many many historians and archeologists. This Petra hypothesis also explains why Saudi gov doesn't allow any kind of Archeological dig around Mecca and why they have destroyed many ancient markings and relics around the place, even graveyards, so that they can set up ugly looking buildings all around the Kaaba? Just a food for thought.
Even 800 years prior to Islam, the Arabs were well known for their navigation skills. That’s why their core business was traders and caravan merchants
@@MPika-qd8jk Good question. 1. The name "Badr" is not a name of a place, it means "full moon". The battle of Badr means battle of full moon. Another name of the battle is Battle of Hunin (Battle of Nostalgia). The term Badr itself has no relation to geography. 2. The first account of Battle of Badr was described in Ibn-Ishaq's biography of Mohammed (100 years after the battle), in that biography, there is not a single geographical description of the place of the battle. 3. Then Ibn-Hisham expounded a little bit based on Ibn-Ishaq's description (170 years after the battle, 70 years after Ibn-Ishaq). 4. The first account of geographical description about this battle we find is in Al-Tabari's work (250 years after the battle, 80 years after Ibn Hisham). He allegedly found the geographical description from a "letter" sent to the caliph Abdul-Malik (250 years after the battle). There is no authenticity of source regarding this letter that suddenly appeared out of nowhere. 5. Not a single historian or caliph before Abdul-Malik never knew about that letter. The Abdul Malik's letter describes the location of battle to be currently known place in Saudi Arabia. 6. The last point: according to Ibn-Hisham and Ibn-Ishaq, a caravan with war and food supplies was set out SOUTHWARD from Damascus Syria to the holy city of Mecca, Muslim soldiers heard about the news and went to NORTH to loot the caravan. How would you explain it? I didn't do any research regarding Tabuk. Therefore I can't comment on this issue. It's an open and interesting research problem, people should pursue it. Perhaps I will dig into it in the future.
@@MPika-qd8jk People only resort to bad mouthing or personal attacks when they are incapable of conducting a civil discussion. Never saw a single Muslim in my life who has a shred of capacity to engage in civil argument without being emotional. I am not assuming anything about your personal knowledge or conviction. Neither I am passing any judgement about your character. But you are continuously engage in in such kind of behavior. Okay I agree, I lack knowledge (I am not expert in every domain of knowledge), I have no problem admitting that. BUT I don't engage in discussion unless I am presented with a CLEAR and PRECISE source. Now educate me. Read my comment again, present me ONE VERSE where it describes anything specific and clear description about the geographical location of the battle of badr in the Quran. And show me which hadeeth it says badr is a name of a place. غزوة بدر literally means battle of the full moon in old Arabic. Show me proofs that 17th of Ramadan date is not from Al-Tabari's book you found it from Ibn-Hisham or Ibn-Ishaq's work. (or from Quran or Hadeeth).
Yeah i mean you are blaming muslims to not take seriously a claim some guy just made about mecca out of nowhere. Where all of history is so rigid and relatively well understood that a kaaba change happens and no one says anything about it except some guy 1400 years later ?? And you are suggesting us to take it seriously and we are close minded if we don't ?? This is like saying donald trump is the terminator and we are close minded to not explore the idea.
@@abdullahmuzaffar2483 None of what you have said is a counter argument. What you are basically saying is "you are wrong". I don't understand what is the point of writing an entire paragraph? You could have just finished it in one line. Lol.
Brother Syawish, When you start mentioning about "revision of this scale is impossible", I instantly remembered Matt Baker's quite similar argument over the so-called coverup of the exodus of Moses and the Israelites, in Matt's video Does Moses Exist.
Thanks for the independent take on this! The dam Dan Gibson docu sounded so convincing until I heard you
I rea0lly like your video style!
Even in my language ' Urdu" we have a idiom that goes like " Ap apna Qibla darust kijiye" which literally means " You should rectify your direction of Kabbah" and figuratively means " Leave the bad habits and do the right thing"
Man your chanel deserves so much more subscribers! This video is so well done that you just think “what is Dan Gibson his intention” Love to you brother❤️
gibson`s intentions are complete clear, they are described in his books. read them, he explains everything thoroughly, and you will wonder how it is possible that people have not conducted his research earlier. read the books, then you will be one of the very few people around here who really know what they are talking about, instead of just trying to support their superstitions and prejudice (as alomst all of the people here are doing). you choose which group you want to belong to.
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe. Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83 The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning. Petra The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow. Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
Nice Video, very informative I want you to Start A Series Of Ottoman Empire.
You're a genius, he totally should
@Al Barbarī hmm i see
Yes..this comment must be on top
Thanks for presenting another aspect of this theory.
As an arabic speaker who read Dan gibson work, the guy made numorous mistakes translating some words in arabic he didnt account for vowel per example he translated a certain word حِجر to حَجر which both look the same other than the vowel but have totaling different meaning one means a rock the other means Lap. so im not that surprised of the inconsistencies of his work pretty genuine i guess but still Wrong
Finally someone said it, I am an Arab too and noticed it myself
Yeah, u know that knowledge so speak up LOUDER bro, dont be shy.
Directions are determined by scientific approach not Arabic vowels 🤨🤨🤓🤓🤓
You can't change history, just as you can't say Mecca is the place of Adam and hundreds of prophets, whereas history never records that place existed before the 7th century. listen, there is not enough water source, there will be no civilization, period.
@@Martin-lv1xw for people who think earth is flat, it might
I've flipflopped on this idea often. First I was convinced, then I wasn't, then I watched more of Dan Gibson's videos and I became convinced again, then I researched even more and finally today I honestly am skeptical. A lot of what Gibson says makes sense but I find it hard to believe that such a radical change would go unnoticed. The explanation he gives that that it was and he cites some texts about one of the final tabi3een saying the prayer is being forgotten but that's not the same as an entire city. Can you imagine being an inhabitant of Petra and allowing your community to forget that the city is holy? Also by the time of Muhammad Petra was almost entirely Christian as well, not pagan. But I don't know, the issue is that both sides of this debate have religious axes to grind, Dan is a Christian and associates with apologists, its difficult to find a secular viewpoint. The secular scholars I know of however haven't really paid much attention to this debate.
That why some orientalist said Islam is actually one of branch of christianity, and some said that created by some christian priest
Did Meccans frozen in time,did they just go extinct hahahah The owner of this channel is Syawish who is atheist one side ,islam another. so that explain this nonsense. Hadiths mentioned all the details of Mecca,if Petra is Mecca,where is Zam Zam Well? Where is Safa Marwah where the Hajar wife of Abraham were running up n down with Ishmael in her hands,wheres this and that valleys? If Petra is Mecca why are archaeologists all affirmed the library located outside Kaabah was a house that Muhammad was gave birth at,and theres measurements of his house size and companions house sizes and nothing like Petra. Islam has seperate history on Petra,not Muhammads history. Hadiths are made by chain.of narrators.individuals who had history of lying or such and narrates a hadith will make the chain weak.So we take the chains that are mostly of holy ppl.and individually judged by the community no biasness. Kaabah was damaged not destroyed. Sauds will smack this Paki Syawish who is torned between being athiest n muslim.and being a wack ass historian.
I feel like there is an incredibly modern assumption in thinking it would be noticed.
@@Kuudere-Kun exactly. Not many original muslims to begin. No many maps existed. Many muslims died in war etc. The. Petra got excinct by earthquakes, nobody lift there anymore. The stone had already been moved to Mekka...
Dan Gibson's hypothesis is very weak. i right away dumped it when I learned about it. The language spoken at Petra is Aramaic. If Dan Gibson is correct the earliest quran should have been in Aramaic. Yet the quran had always been written and recitated in Arabic - with the dialect of Mecca.
Great episode. Excellent commentary at the end - the need to understand the environment for any 'fact' to be understood is paramount to understanding the fact itself. I recall watching a 'documentary' based on Gibson and it was easy for me to see the pitfalls used in the approach; I have much experience in this area of what constitutes evidence versus opinion. Not the least of which involves the myths surrounding my ancestor Morat Ra'is the Younger of Morocco (Jan Jansen van Haarlem). I read a very good research article on the positioning of mosques in Morocco and the changes made within a single mosque as well as the changes over time as new or different understandings came to prominence. Mention was made of the use of a parallel line orientation that you mention. Unfortunately, the article was not germane to the book I'm writing on the Maghreb so I did not keep it otherwise I'd direct you to it - but it is out there. One thing I do recall reading either in that article or somewhere else was the dilemma of how does one determine what 'facing Mecca' even means? You would think it is a straight-forward Q & A but, as it turns, it is not. Is the shortest distance from one point to Mecca the right direction to face? Some use this approach with the result being a mosque oriented in a more northerly direction than one might expect because the curvature of the planet results in the 'direct-line' approach being a greater distance than an 'arching' approach. An analogy was given with the paths that airlines use. The shortest distance is to fly far to the north when going from Los Angeles to Madrid as it is much shorter so which way is Madrid? The shortest way is northeast while the direct way is much more easterly oriented but is a much longer distance. What parameters are used to determine what 'in the direction of' actually means? Is it the shortest distance? Is it the shortest amount of time required to traverse the distance? It's a very interesting topic
I LOVE THIS VIDEO. I just saw the documentary and it seemed interesting, but also a bit conspiracy. I'm very happy I found your video. I'm very happy with scholars like you on the internet. The ones that are religious but also interested in the early history of their religions. It shows you are searching for the truth and nothing but the truth. I can trust you. You are not trying to prove something. Also, you show very well how difficult it is to research early Islamic history. (The beginning of "anything" is always heavenly debated and you should never believe one source trying to change the narrative. That's the case here as well and I'm very happy you show that AND WHY it is so difficult/hard to know.) Truly, thank you, thank you, thank you. I cannot say it enough times. You're doing an amazing job educating the masses about truely fascinating subjects!
According to him he said Quran exaggerated Mecca in that it dint possess agricultural land if that’s exaggerated what else is
If Dan Gibson was an ex Hamas and ex Al-Qaeda member ,he would have convinced a lot of people.
Brother, your way of presentation is really great. But , you are wrong in one thing , pre-Islamic Arab merchants were really good at pointing directions, they used positions of stars , stone and thread and also poems . So directions of those old quiblas could not be unintentionally wrong. Also Hipparcus(190bc -120bc) was known as the father of trignometry. So, use of trigonometric formulas was also very common in ancient civilizations like egyptians, greeks, romans , persians and indians.
This is 100% the truth...the pyramids are spot on and almost every monument from that era all point to the four corners. I know there are some that dont and are believed by some to be pre the current poles but that's another discussion but a lot of them are 99.9% accurate. It's obvious from the start that this kid already doesn't believe and he is just presenting the facts as laze fair as possible to make them seem insignificant. You can't have some fat old white man telling the entire arab community that they are wrong. I've seen the dan Gibson documentary at least 15 times because I am western Muslim and I think his evidence is near irrefutable. The big hang up is that in Islam they consider their religion 100% pure from the moment gibriel or gabriel first spoke to Muhammad until now they say their text is unchanged therefore it is the only pure word because christianity which they acknowledge in a positive way still falls short because the original texts of Jesus were destroyed. So I get the hesitation but for non arab muslims we are open to any new evidence because we aren't tied down to dogma.. Dan Gibson saying they pray towards the black rock is nothing but colloquial at best, it doesn't matter... the kabba and the rock are in the exact same place.. I stopped watching at 5 mins because I can't stand the dance when it's clear someone is biased from the start.. they did a satellite linked study that showed all of the kiblahs pre the big change in 673 to 750 point towards Petra, not Jerusalem, not Mecca but Petra and it makes 100% sense
So I further listened to about half way and this kid is just reaching. It's just a pure hit piece. I get it I guess but what a waste of time to just be wrong... you have to say to yourself you're wrong and prove that the wrong isn't right before you can go with your final conclusion. This young man obviously can't do that..
There are alot of mosques around the Islamic world that have only recently corrected their qiblah people made alot of mistakes back in the day and specifically at directions i don't know if you read history or not but it was common for travelers to find themselves in a completely different area than they wanted to go while still using those tools
@@isseabdirahmanweheliye9010 So did all those early kiblas pointing to Petra precisely, make a mistake too? All of them made the same mistake? Obviously they knew the direction and it was Petra
Thank you very much from the heart .may Allah ta'ala bless you for servicing of his Deen.
Amazing video
You made a very strong case for Mecca being located in a different part of the world, and not in Saudi Arabia. Well done.
I guess there is a good reason why Saudi is now starting to openly talk about its pre-Islamic history as well...
Question: are there any mentions of Mecca - by Arab or non-Arab sources - prior to the 8th century? Why does Mecca not show up on any pre-10th-century maps? Why are there no 7th-century coin mints there, or any archeological support for such an (allegedly) ancient city?
In human record, there is one from 6th century. The charter of medina or medina treaty. There's also one from the beginning of time, the Quran 48:24
@@wantrevize Ibn Ishaq's Sirah, supposed to be dated at early 8th century is the earliest source of the charter. But it is also lost writings, referenced by Ibn Hisham in the 9th century. Earliest attestable writing about the charter is then dated at 9th century. Same problem for the Abû 'Ubayda writings about the charter, referenced by Tabarî in the 10th century. How do you respond to that ?
So , tell me where is cave of Hira , cave of thaur in petra? How muslim goes to ethopia in first hejrat ?
Funny thing, I was in Petra with two of my three younger sisters and a guest four years ago, when I heard the athaan. Just listening to it made our visit all the more special and spiritual. ☺️ ❤️
Macca =petra bacca=Jerusalem The kiss of truth is occupied Jerusalem now, . Where is the Sacred Mosque? Reading Surat Al-Baqarah knows the location of the Sacred Mosque in the city of Jerusalem. This is the secret of Palestine
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe. Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83 The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning. Petra The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow. Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
The description of Mecca is itself in Quran of green city and mother of all cities . Also it does not fall on trade rout , no ancient map points mecca despite its pompous descriptions
can you show me where in the Quran mecca is described as green city?
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe. Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83 The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning. Petra The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow. Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
Where does Quran say that?? 👀
W r u lying dawg? Give the verse
From what I have heard from Islamic scholars regarding more "lax" qiibla directions is that there was a difference of opinion. The now unpopular opinion was that the qibla was based off of if the kaba's four walls were extended from east to west and north to south and that as long as your direction of prayer was in line with one of those walls then you would be ok. So for example the mosques in cordoba were faced south because when the kaba's walls are extended it would be closer to face south than to face East.
Dan Gibson's data on Qibla direction is accurate because he is using modern technology, the GPS. For me, he is persuasive in this matter. If the creators of the early Qiblas do not have any sense of direction, if they do not have any technique to determine the right direction where the early Qiblas would point to, the technology which Gibson used would give a random direction. However, to everyone's surprise, the early Qiblas' direction, according to GPS, point to Petra. Is this a mere coincidence?
i'd suggest experiment to sail on the sea & use night stars during nights & sun ascensions during the day for navigation, just like the ancient folks did. See if the techniques proven to be accurate to determine directions. If the ancient folks didn't have good technique, i'd expect some masjid would face eskimo or antarctic then. But no. Their accuracies were not bad afterall.
@@JoeJoe-qy2bb Exactly!
I don't know if you read his book, because he spends about 30 pages talking about ancient navigation. This is the #1 issue that seems to come up - "they couldn't determine directions back then/had no GPS". This is silly, because we know from early Arabic history that they traveled great distances though the deserts with the caravans (before roads existed) and there are references in Arabic texts that describe the methods and equipment that they used (some tools can be seen in museums). The star compass for example was accurate to about 2 degrees, and the average errors of the Petra-facing mosques is 2.9 degrees. So, as you say, very persuasive. Furthermore, statistics! The standard deviation is 2.1 degrees and the error for these mosques to Mecca is over 20 degrees, which is 5 sigmas. If you look up the probability of trying to face Mecca but hitting Petra with a sigma of 2.1, it's about 1 in 3 million.
@@theastronomer5800 Wonderful! Thanks for the info. Honestly, I have not read his book. I just watched the documentary of Dr. Gibson.
@@markpagente3665 Oh, a part of his book with the supporting evidence is available online here if you'd like to check it out: www.almuslih.com/Library/Gibson,%20D%20-%20Supporting%20Evidence.pdf
Speaker's Corner on KZhead debunks this many years ago 😂 but it's nice to have nice version to debunking it again😹
Not really, hehe.. xD
@@avtaras I don't know? They(Muslims in speakers corner) cite the specifics to the point. Christian trolls run away for lack of information. On their part.
haha..sneakers corner debunked speakers corner a few months back. go watch it. Petra is the real Mecca. You're welcome
@@cuteawais Except they didn't? The evidence shown was debunked on the spot
@@cuteawais Christians say that Isaiah 42 is not about Muhammad, because the Sela is not sela of medina but rather in Edom which is Petra. Now, they have to accept prophet Muhammad since they believe Dan Gibson, lol.
Impressively dispassionate. Well done.
What Dan Gibson doesn't understand is, Kabbah is the symbol the Moslem or Islam will be gathered, the Moslem pray to Qibla or Kabbah direction is to unite Muslims. If a Moslem lost or made a journey and doesn't know Qibla or Kabbah direction they still can do the pray. It's not the right or wrong direction, but the important thing is as a Moslem should remember to their one God (Allah) and do that by praying. So Dan Gibson theory "Have Muslims Been Praying In The Wrong Direction" well unfortunately does not affect us as Muslims. Sorry to say but Dan Gibson throwed away moneys for his useless research.
he got funded from......yk what i mean
Even today there are many mosques in Pakistan that are built incorrectly I use the qibla campus and many of our mosques have difference of minor degrees but those minor degrees could mean praying towards medina or yemen or who knows maybe jerusalem 😂
Yeah, because earth don't spread like carpet and spike it with mountains.
@@sudirosumbodo5385 ofcourse
the mosque in my neighborhood has the same story. I have just realized it faces yemen. And not mecca
@@Char444 the mosque in my neighborhood has the same story too, it faces Washington DC!
Explain how a football player accidentally scores 20 own goals in his career before he strikes his first goal
The issue here is not only quibla direction but also of the Hajj. Here in the Philippines Filipino Muslims who had gone to Mecca as pilgrimes they're usually called Hajji. If the allegation of Dan Gibson is found to be true then probably they will be called as fake Hajji.
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe. Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83 The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning. Petra The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow. Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
No mention of the "mother of all cities" being a walled city with a river running through it? Clearly Mecca has never been a walled city or ever had any river as both foundations and river beds are easy to find, you would think anyone going on a pilgrimage there would know that. I would not try to make the case that Petra was the home of your faith but I could very easily make the case that it was clearly not Mecca as it fits none of the criteria.
Thank you for your take on that theory. It sounds absurd. I just wanted to note a couple of things: Mecca, while still being in a dry climate, it is in a valley "بوادٍ غير ذي زرع" and could have some green surfaces like palm trees, minding that was after Hajar and Ismail were moved to there. Olives would have been weird, though. Also, "Muslimeen" was mentioned during the lifetime of Muhammad (peace be upon him) so the term was actually used, but it is well known that facing our Qiblah is a major unifying character that is likely used to remind someone of the unity of Muslims.
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe. Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83 The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning. Petra The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow. Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
Why and how could people build a very important shrine in the middle of no where while no one could live nearby to maintain it? Why would people consider a barren land as the holy place? Why was the Forbidden Area needed to be installed when nobody wanted to go there because it was so unimportant? The "cover up" could succeed might be the same reason as you mentioned "people just didn't take qibla as seriously as we do today".