Dutch 'Sixes' Culture vs US 'Performance' Culture (Education)
What is the Dutch “Sixes” culture (zesjescultuur) in education? How does it compare to America’s “achievement” culture?
In this video, I explore the differences between the Dutch and American education systems including the pros/cons of the Sixes culture using the latest neuroscience.
⏰ CHAPTERS:
00:00 🏁 Intro
02:26 🇳🇱 🇺🇸 Dutch vs. USA Education
05:25 6️⃣ Grades (USA vs. Netherlands)
07:19 🏆 Rankings (USA vs. Netherlands)
08:19 👍 Pros of Dutch Sixes Culture
10:25 👎 Cons of Dutch Sixes Culture
12:25 🎬 End
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As a dutch university student I would also like to point out that you dont get a 6 with only 60% of the right answers. The bar for a passing grade is higher and is normally around the 75-80% mark but differs for each class/exam.
This really differs for every degree though. I imagine you're a humanities/social sciences student. I, as a mathematics and physics student at UU, have the grading system: (Points earned / obtainable points) x 10 = grade. This means 60% actually does give you a 6. To pass the high school final exams (n=1), you only need 50%. In extreme cases, this can be 61% (n=0) or even only 38,5% (n=2).
Thanks for sharing these perspectives
@@sjors3487While it is true that you get a 6 at 60% of the points, you don't score 60% of the points with only 60% of the knowledge. Around 75% of the knowledge would get you a 6.
@annekekramer3835 yeah, in belguim too.. professors make sure uou cant really pass without really understanding at the course well, the change from 10/20 instead of 12/20 some 20 yrs ago, led the exams losing 2 point easy knowledge questions, replaced by 2 point very hard question, so its just as hard to get a 10 then a 12 before, and getting a 16 or 20 became way harder..
@@sjors3487It makes a difference what highschool you go to. If you go to VMBO you get a 5 when you have half of them correct. But Havo you must have about 70% correct for a 5. VWO is even higher.
You missed a massive diffrence in the educational system. In the US everyone is in the same class in high school. Meaning the smartest kids compete with the dumbest. In the Netherlands everyone is put in classes based on how talented they are. Meaning All the smart kids are in VWO. Then HAVO then VMBO. Meaning the exams on VWO are far far more difficult then the ones on VMBO. So if you gett all 10/10's on VMBO that would mean getting 8/10's on Havo and 6/10's on VWO. The exams on VWO are far more difficult then the ones people get in American High schools since everyone has to do them. Not just the smartest kids. So people on VWO would get 95%'s on American exams. but only 60% on the exams they get here in the Netherlands. Seeing all the comments I wanted to add a little bit. The fact that we do get 6/10's doesn't mean we have any less of a peformance culture than America. Just a diffrent grading system. If you don't pass your test you will get dropped down to a lower level. If you would start on VWO there is a big pressure to make sure you don't go to havo. (which happens to a lot of students). Also the 6/10 on VMBO was just an example. I don't know what the level diffrence exactly is. (its also quite a sensitive topic for people since people don't like to hear that others peform way better than they do). Besides that, there are diffrent levels of VMBO which I did not talk about. VMBO students are often far better at sports or doing things with their hands. Just the theoretical stuff is harder for them. They are often looked down upon and it does create a big social barrier. (I never really came into contact and still don't with people who did the lowest levels of VMBO.) From my own experience I did VWO for 3 years then dropped down to havo (doing HBO now) . There was a massive difference is how difficult stuff was. I was really struggling on VWO and had to put in a lot of work to get my grades high enough to go to the next year. On havo I really didn't have to do much and passed everything without much effort. (most of the time not even studying for a test would still give me a 6)
Thanks for sharing this. That's a big difference, glad you shared! Do you agree/disagree with this approach (putting all the smart kids together, etc)?
I think it is good because both the subjects they have to follow aswell as the content of the class can be tailored to the students needs. and for the arguement you can make that the better students wil motivate the weaker students. i doubte that will happen alot as i have seen students drop from vwo to vmbo in there school time because they where not motivated. but i have also seen people take the oppesite track, going from MBO to HBO and then WO(Masters).
@@hidavidwen the only clear downside to this system is a sort of classism existing between vmbo and havo/vwo where vmbo is looked down uppon, but having people of similar thinking levels makes group projects more equal, creates a better enviorment regarding grade comparison and makes making friend easier since humans are more likely to make friends with people on the same wavelength as them. an other downside is that you don't really learn to work with people that think on a different level than you, but that is more dependant on the individual.
@@jornzwaagstra1150 Those are good points, though it's worth nothing that you'll find kids from all walks of life at every level. Also worth noting is that you can advance from one level to the next, but it'll cost you a year. Way back when, I went to HAVO after the first year of high school, but went on to do VWO and got a master's degree after that. A friend of mine went from MAVO (now VMBO) to HAVO to VWO and graduated with honours getting a master's in hard science. The system does not always put kids at their correct level, but that can be corrected later on.
@@kaasmeester5903 ofcourse discussing these topics will always be to broad to apply to each individual .
an important note here is the grading curve, and it's absence in the netherlands. It doesn't matter how well you did amongst your peers, what matters is if you've mastered the subject or not. The 6 being the passing grade is not by accident, this is the level where you've mastered enough to progress, the person who made the exam knows this, and has adjusted accordingly. therefore, the 6 really is good enough. I've seen many an exam where only about 10% of the class passed, if these classes were graded on a curve, a lot of students without proper mastery of the subject would have passed. Better to halt them early and have them catch up early, or signalling to them their current track is not for them. As such, in some degree tracks as little as 12% make it through the first year.
Thanks for sharing! Yeah that makes sense 🙌
A non dutch friend of mine really disagreed with the idea of a 6 and says he didn't see it as good enough mastely of the material, but as the bare minimum knowlegde, meaning you'd be below average once you graduate. His view was an 8 amongs graduates is average, 10 is above and 6 is below, since nobody below a 6 would have graduated. Maybe this is how more people see this system and if so I totally get why they're against it.
@@dazy03I think it depends on the field of experience. In my expertise, Chemical Engineering, you don't pass if you know around 60% of the subject. I think you'd get a 6 at around 75% knowledge, a 9 at around 95% knowledge and a 10 at 100% knowledge and a perfect day where you never make a mistake.
@@dazy03a 7 is average, but note that it’s also skewed by the people who get 8’s and 9’s or even 10’s. Most people will get between 6’s and 7’s. 6’s are made to be good enough to follow higher education, so yeah, it is good enough (though I’d argue it’s more stressful since one bad grade can mess it up)
I think its fascinating that you think that mediocre grades will lead to a mediocre life. There is so much more than our education or career that defines us a person or our wellbeing. A healthy work/private life balance is one (a lot of people in the Netherlands work "just" 40 hours per week and more and more even less. This leaves way more time for maintaining your social life, go on trips or practice a hobby.
A study comparing Dutch and American university grades concluded that it takes the same amount of effort to get an A in America, as to get a 7/10 in The Netherlands. Also note that to recieve a pass you usually have to answer 70-80% correct.
Thanks for sharing this! That makes sense
The percentage of needed correct answers really differs a lot between different studies though. I'm an Artificial intelligence Masters student at the TU/e and it's really uncommon that more than 55% of the questions need to be answered correctly to pass. As a result, the exams are usually designed to be very difficult though. From what I've heard it seems to be that way for most technical studies.
@@hidavidwenmajority of my grades are calculated by: (points gotten - points available) x 9 + 1
yeah in middle school, not in university though
sick albion fights man. but im in highschool@@sterbenfear
On a special note: "getting the highest grade possible" is simply impossible in the Netherlands. Even the absolute best of the best almost never get a 10. Being higher than a 9 is still totally possible, but a 10 is absolutely flawless. It happens maybe once every 10.000 tests. It is so rare, that if someone actually gets a 10 on the national final exam in ANY subject, it will make national headlines.
Thanks for sharing! Yeah I read somewhere that 10 is for God
You can pretty much only get a 10 in a multiple choice exam. I agree that it is pretty much impossible in written exams.
I know several people that got a 10 and it's rly impressive but saying it'll make headlines and is only 1 in 10000 is kinda overestimating how special it is
@@FrietPiet I had a 10- on one of my Central Exams for Dutch (I sat both Havo and VWO exams two years apart). I had forgotten to put in the title and in over 10 pages of writing, had made 1 spelling / grammar mistake. At the start of the exam i scared the supervising teacher, who after 10 minutes of me staring off in the distance without even having touched a pen, came to inquire if i was alright. "Go away, i'm thinking!"
I had a 9.4 Match exam. The class avg was 8.4 the highest of the NL (in 2013) the math exam were given to a group of Chemical analysts that required to do basic maths to a group thats doing formulas for normal class. Yeah that was a big screw you and your time by the dutch goverment because that was madetory. Hence we were decorated by the minstry of Education.
I'd like to add that sixes culture is more than just aiming for good enough: it's accepting that you can't excel in every field/subject and that that's okay. You don't need to know everything if you're not gonna use it (often) in the future.
I think this is an important nuance. In high school, I had subjects that did not interest me, so a 5.5 average at the end of the year was perfect. However in the subjects I liked/were interested in having below an 8 would be a disappointment.
Thanks for sharing Max! Took me a while to really grasp this concept, but I think I get it now. And that's because coming from the US...our main focus is on the grades. To get As in every subject. And to excel. Even if we're never going to use Physics or Art History. Because from a pragmatic perspective-grades matter to help us get to that "next level" So it is literally the opposite of how Americans are trained at an early age. And this also influences the workplace/life mindset too =) Everything starts at a young age...Two different systems
100%
@@MrBliss77that’s me exactly!! 😂
If a six is not enough, you should call it a five. While I was doing my internship to become a high school physics teacher, I had to make exams. For every exam that I made I checked whether a six was actually enough. I made the questions so that they would progressively get harder and for the last couple of questions they really had to think out of the box and combine different things. Those questions would get them a 7 or higher. But if they just understood the subject they would get a six. When a student got a six, they really got a grasp of the subject.
Thanks for sharing this perspective
Fair remark. I would expect a teaching system to grade someone as a 6 or 7 when they have a good enough grasp of the subject. On the other hand, when I was in uni, 'the system' used to adjust the grading of a test so that the majority passed. I only had to study a bit above average to pass.
@@esiebring7436 The majority passed? Omg, that sucks! Then your grade doesn't mean anything! If I would let a group of elementary school kids do a university exam, and you grade on a curve, what does the mark then say about the knowledge of the subject? Nothing! I had plenty of courses where less than 20% would pass. It simply means the rest does not understand the subject and has to ty again, or pick different courses. Introduction to fluid dynamics is one if those courses. It's not a subject just anyone can pass.
@@esiebring7436lol, we had many courses with a passing grade between 30 and 40%. Still most courses aimed for the 70% pass mark. This was at Wageningen University in the Netherlands. The MSc courses were also easier than the BSc courses because there were too many people with insufficient knowledge of the topics who joined the MSc programme. I found this to be a bit strange.
@ian4683 I might have interpreted the situation wrong. Anyway, after a test they looked at the results, something was altered in the grading system and then the majority would've passed. Getting 50% to pass might not have been the actual goal; it could just be that they took away the 'bad questions' (bad, because obviously dubiously phrased and thus answered wrong by many). I used to listen to all the grumbling after an exam and when most grumbled more than I did, I'd feel safe. It did affect my method of preparation; I'd aim for doing slightly better than most. (This was in stark contrast to my husbands experience. Failure rate was aimed somewhere at 10% during the first semester, to sift out the truly dedicated/bright IT-students (according to his stories).)
The sixes culture also makes room for people who need to work hard for a 6. They can attend and succeed in university without being judged by the rest of the world. So no potential is lost
Thanks for sharing! Makes sense. No potential is lost
Yes and it's a complete disaster, people that need to work really hard to get a 6 are studying and later working above their competence
@@douwehuysmans5959 that's kind of a prejudice, for important jobs a six will mean different things. If you refuse people for grades instead of diploma people with less expensive education are most likely to be refused even though they worked hard for a diploma. Getting a 6 is not black and white, why would you have VMBO, HAVO, VWO if only grades matter? People who work hard for a six aren't necessarily bad at it they most likely have trouble learning from books, it's also important that someone with lots of knowledge isn't necessarily good at the subject, experience also counts. Getting a six doesn't mean someone is dumb just that they aren't as good at theory but most likely are great at actually working with it in real life.
@@douwehuysmans5959that's a bit unfair, especially in highschool. Students aren't equally skilled in all subjects and it'd be a waste to go down a level just because you suck at a few subjects you can drop after your 3rd year anyway
@@PixlyPenguin You have VMBO, HAVO and VWO so people can grow within the correct boundaries of their competence and find a job that fits their competence, work generally is harder than school, not easier. At higher positions your job generally involves reading tons of books, articles and reports and extracting the most vital information from them, how is someone that isn't good at reading a book going to function there?
As an American who just started a Master's Program in the Netherlands, I was shocked and disappointed when I received my first 7 on a quiz. In my head, this was a C (so, very mediocre). During my Bachelor's, I was the kind of student aiming for A - A+. The reactions about my grade from my Dutch classmates were quite different though -- sharing with me that I did REALLY well. It didn't make sense in my brain. I'm now starting to warm up to the idea of striving for "good enough" if it means I have more time for mental and physical well-being.
I passed with sixes and sevens most of my high school year. My focus was on quality of life: sports and hobbies. At that time, there was less focus on your diploma's rather than your actual performance. Nowadays one requires diploma's if you want to apply for a job. As a teenager, and even at high school I had absolutely no clue what I wanted to do, but I was (am) a hard worker and a quick learner. I did seasonal work during Summer holidays at a bank (where my late mother worked for), when I finished junior high and after my military service I got a steady contract. Did a lot of departments within the bank, learning on the job. Nowadays I am a senior in cash management, despite the fact having absolutely no financial back ground. I am consulted by top bankers, but also CFOs, treasurers and controllers of the companies in my portfolio. We recently hired new co-workers. The managers I worked for have little interest in diploma's but more in work attitude and eagerness. BTW I am often asked for advices from coworkers who did university, who did study hard, who paid lots on their education. A diploma is not more nor less than a piece of paper. It's all about the person.
What does it matter?
Welcome as that is how dutch grades work , as at high school level we got A/B/C/D levels of grading . A beeing 1:1 grades 55% is a 5 . B 60% is a 5.5 C 65-70% is a 5.5 and D level 70%-75% is a 5.5 . A beeing the lowest level of education . And most education levels are A/B B/C and C/D levels . the higher the level the higher the details are punished . One missed comma or period , Forgetting a Capital letter or forgetting a correct unit in physics for example you forget gram or newton behind a measurement , 1/10 of a point is detracted . And when you ever doubt the system , just have a good look at what the dutch have accomplished and how many noble prize winners they have over the past 500 years .
Well you can get a 10, just need all answers correct. What is hard about that ? :D
@@HermanWillems Yep , but also do not forget all the correct comma , period placements, capitol letters and spelling or correct units . missing one is -0.1of a point for that question . and having multiple it can run up quick . Having all the questions correct and having and yet having a 8.8 because of missing commas.or simply forgetting to put a date on the exam paper .
When studying electronics, I had a teacher who told us he rather did not take exams at all, he found them to be nonsense. He said if you're not here to learn, that's your problem, I don't care. So he did exams with 20 questions (because he had to) but you only had to answer 10 questions you could select yourself. For some reason everybody filled in 20 questions on his exams and everyone had good results. I guess nobody wanted to flunk his exams. His message was, it's all about the learnng process, grades tell you nothing.
that's logical ... if you understand what you are doing and how ... you can also adjust that formula for a better result if at any time in the futute it would be called for.
I had a teacher that recycled old exams, but did not change the answers. So the right one was not there, but you knew for example the old answer was c, so even when it had the wrong answer in the exam it still counted. This was also my electronic engineering. And of course you had teachers that where plain rubbish and you only saw the backs of them and they where writing on the board. Well, just write is once and print it. Those hours are for questions not for what you could already read in the books. And i had a very funny teacher, great guy, fun and everybody liked him and had good grades and he got a burn-out. Very sad.
Thanks for sharing! Well that's a real educator right there-all about the learning. Reverse psychology?
I agree, yet my question is then what is the point of classes anyway. everyone can go and learn the topics they want. Is it only because of efficiency? because society lacks enough teachers? Or is the goal is competition and motivation in the group studies? in this case, I would say grades help.
@@PashaPorkar I know a lot of the US States names and Possitions in the US ... none of which I learned in school as I am European. Learning is something you need to keep doing as long as you live even if only to keep your mind flexible. School is just an aid to Help the young learn as much as possible in the years their minds are keen on gathering information. as your brain will start to lose some of that the older you get.
As an educator on a vocational level in the netherlands, keep in mind that the grades arent just the same. We are tasked with guaranteeing a minimum, workable, safe skillset for each student at the end, and grading systems are made to do just that. Fail to do a safety check? Immediate failure, even if you could count points and get to a 6. But students not applying the most optimal solution to a problem? Still a pass, but less points, because you still fixed the problem adequately, you are employable to do the task. We guarantee the minimum, and also offer something for the students with more motivation or capacity to grow further and get even better. Its up to the students if they want or can do the extra steps. Students know themselves, and certain programmes in certain universities are very difficult, are known as such, and weaker students will opt not to do the hardest programs but one that actually fits their capabilities.
Ah thanks for sharing this perspective as an educator! Guaranteeing the minimum but also offer something more for students (up to students) 🙌
I think an essential part that you've missed here is that it's not typical to aim for a six in every subject. In my experience people have a few subjects that they care about (out of interest or because they align with their future plans) and then there's the subject(s) that you are happy to score a six on.
If someone only has 6s that implies they can barely follow along, and are probably getting a lot of extra teaching at home. But a mixture of grades between 6-8 is very common and just means you are good in some courses and good-enough in others.
Like many other pointed out, the curve is very different. I studied in an American system after being a 6-student. I got A's without breaking a sweat. Gettings an A+ here means that you did the best possible job imaginable, not just compared to other students. Getting a 100% score on an essay is basically unheard of. I think that scale on the 7 minute mark is accurate-ish.
As a Dutchie, one of my teachers in uni made a list of grades for written reports that put the grades in perspective. I always remembered this and now use the same list to explain the Dutch grading system to my international friends: anything below 5.5 - varying levels of not good enough 6 - the bare minimum 7 - the expected level 8 - better than expected, either in knowledge, skill (researching/reporting), or both 9 - (far) ahead of other students, teacher may have learned something from this report 10 - 'a diamond, teacher runs through the hallway crying'
Middleschool/basisschool 1 = You did not learn 2 = You did not try hard enough 3 = Wow, you didn't get it 4 = Okay, you didn't learn hard enough 5 = Hmpf. Better next time. 5,5 = Well I guess you did well enough 6 = Ahah, you got it 7 = Yes, good job 8 = Eeeeyyy well done there 9 = Pffwoah hey, wow! 10 = WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Highschool/Middelbareschool 0 = You gave back your paper with your name and the date and your autograph on it. 1 = You barely tried 2 = You really didn't get it 3 = You tried and it did not work 4 = Okay, you kindof got it 5 = Hey...you're starting to get there 5,4 = Ahhww well, in the end, that's nearly a 6 5,5 = EEEyyy good job bud, that is a 6 6 = EYYYY well done, a 6! 7 = Oh, so you have personal info on this subject, this happens to be your favorite class? 8 = Wowzes you must've sacrificed your nights for this! 9 = Jezusmina what the hell have you done to get a nine?! 10 = Ah, so it was a 20-point German-words-test and you got all 20 right? Education afterwards, in my case, Level 4 VMBO Standbuilding, Marketing, Design. 0 = You were ill 1 = You tried and failed 2 = Really, try better 3 = You had some good answers, just not enough 4 = Heeeyyyy starting to get there! Yes! 5 = Woahwahwiewah, that is grande! Well done! 6 = Wowwwwwwwww that is magnificent! 7 = Yeah right, what the fuck did you do then? Did your dad pay the school? 8-10 = Nonexistent.
@@Widdekuu91ik kreeg altijd een 1 voor m’n naam geen 0
@@JBtheboss649 Hm..misschien vonden ze je naam dan heel mooi. Bij ons waren ze wat strenger.
@@Widdekuu91haha ik dacht dat het kwam omdat een 0 niet in het systeem kon
@@JBtheboss649de 0 was voor 'niet op komen dagen'. Als je alleen je naam op het papier schreef kreeg je een 1
As a Dutchie who studied at the film academy in Belgium, I experienced a major culture shock. Belgium is all about 'de blok', which comes from the word 'blokkeren', meaning 'to block'. It is the period leading up to the exams and it is called 'de blok' because you are expected to block everything from your life that is not related to your exams. They will study 8-10 hours a day for several weeks to get good grades. Meanwhile, I never studied. Because a 6 was all I needed and I paid enough attention during classes to get a 6. Eventually I even dropped out and went my own way. But there is an important nuance to this that this video forgets to mention: studying isn't necessarily about gaining knowledge. For a lot of people, it is just memorizing the manual. And that will be useless down the line. True knowledge comes from experience. That's what I did. While they were studying for 3-4 weeks straight, I was gaining experience. They got 10's, I got 6-7's. We started with a class of 120 and 8 years later, only a handful still work in the industry. I am one of them and most of the others are dropouts as well
Oh wow thanks for sharing, assumed the culture was similar in Belgium too from what I read but didn’t know about this
Yep, Belgian teaching hospitals are full with Dutch students too. I wonder why, don't they teach medicine in the Netherlands? Or do they need doctors and dentists that like to 'blok' once in a while instead of aiming for 6-7 in the Netherlands?
@@hidavidwenNope, different country, different culture. And our Belgian universities are full with Dutch medical students who feel that keeping their noses to the grindstone is a good thing. I should know, I spend way to much time in a teaching hospital nowadays, about 1 in 4 of the students is Dutch. Easy enough to pick them out, they sound Dutch. Now I wonder, are they here for our beer, the portion size of our fries, or because they prefer to become good at their calling.
As a Dutchman I would like to add that the zesjescultuur is.... a spectrum. I was quite satisfied with a 6 for classes that didn't catch my interest or wanted to persue further. Putting in the 'minimum' effort allowed me to focus on other subjects that I really liked or were much harder for me. Other than that, very interesting video. Thanks for making it!
As someone who is studying in the Netherlands for college, I am glad to see this culture. Coming from Romania where there is so much pressure on students to do this and that and get good grades, I adore the zesjescultuur. Because I can finally navigate school without burn out. The whole “reaching your full potential” thing has a few good points, but overall, from personal experience it feels like a load of crap, it feels like “burn out” under disguise. I am glad to live a in a place that encourages this kind of culture because I have the freedom to move at my own pace, I can sprint or barely trot through something and still end up ok, the freedom of being allowed to try as hard as I want to is priceless, my true potential is met in my eyes when I come home from work or school and don’t feel worn out, but still feel like I did a lot.
Good! If you were meant to be a turbo nerd then you would already happily have been running up that hill, and climbing that mountain.
@@Needlestitch I wasn’t a nerd. I can count on my fingers the amount of times that I opened my books and just studied throughout my high school years. The thing I am moaning about is the fact that reaching the bare minimum is so hard back home because of BS standards. The zesjescultuur has given me the chance to just focus on learning in class without feeling guilt that I don’t do my homework and don’t study. I finally feel like I am just taking in the information and genuinely understand it rather than just crunch it all into my head. I can do the bare minimum in formal work and still achieve better outcomes than trying so hard for nothing.
Thanks for sharing your perspective and best of luck studying! For me...I didn't really think about realizing my "full potential" until after graduation and my mid-late 20s...but personally, I think it's really about self-awareness-knowing your values/strengths/interests/purpose-and then you'll be more motivated to "realize your full potential" and have a life compass to "achieve" And the "self awareness" piece is something that is missing in traditional educational...but that's another story =)
@@hidavidwen I would love to see that story about self awareness any time soon. Because while I do want to do my best, I prefer putting my happiness first and wish to find that balance where I am not burnt out (something I fear a lot because of Romanian high school), and not just being a slob who doesn’t grow. I want to grow, but I want it at a slow pace so I can take it all without being overwhelmed or overworked.
As a Dutch high-schooler I relate to the part where you calculate the minimum grade I have to get to pass my class (eventhough I usually don't get that grade, it is nice to know that I don't have to stress over the test). Because my grades are usually pretty good, some years I could get a "negative" grade (below zero) and still pass the class. Those last weeks of school I usually relax and focus more on my school project (in my school you have to write scientifical reports) or spend a lot of time with friends.
Thanks for sharing especially as you are a high schooler! Can I ask…what is the hardest part of being a high schooler?
@@hidavidwenI finished highschool and am now in my second year of uni. I can honestly say both are very relaxed and laid back (In my experience). Hardest part of highschool for me (i did the VWO) was just finishing stuff like papers on time (procrastinating was my greatest pitfall). The tests were always pretty doable as long as you'd actually spend a few hours learning (which was the hard part for me specifically because of me sitting around and procrastinating). I really like the video, by far the most in depth comparison on Dutch/American school systems!
@@boazd8622 Thanks for sharing and the kind words! Ah yeah...looking back, university/school are very special/unique times...to meet others and try different things in a safe space...so I hope you enjoy the most out of it!
Same: I usually had 7-8 grades and it was very relaxing to know I could score something like a 1 on the last test and still get a 6 on average
@@hidavidwen I think the "challenges" really differ each year. Thoughout the years I really struggeled with procrastination, a fear of failure (I have a bad habit of having to high expectations) and learning how to built healthy and strong friendships. These "skills" of "the handeling of these fears" have gotten a lot better, though. Now I am in my final year and my biggest challenge is passing my exams and finding a study which I am really passionate about.
I think there is one thing that sticks out for me. Fullest potential is not only what grades did you get, but also what did you really learn, and what other development have you achieved. I'm out of the educational system here in the Netherlands for over 30 years now, but if I've learned anything in the "real world", it's that your averages don't say very much. Whether or not you are able to use your knowledge and acquire needed new knowledge is much more important. I've never had much interest in my own grades, but achieved a high average anyhow. If I look at available "high level" tests in maths for example from the US of A education system on YT, I'm surprised at the fact that these are very simple to complete without any faults, despite the fact that I've never done much with my education for the last 30 years. It's hard to compare educational systems if there is no standardized test. International research seems to imply that the Netherlands isn't doing badly compared to the US of A, despite our "good enough" culture.
Correct , one can cramp for grades all they want , but if they dont understand the subject matter it will be a 1time result . As you let them make that same exam 1 year later and they fail. unlike the ones that do the bear minimum or low effort get a 6 or 6.5 and understand the subject matter and ask them to retake the test and they will do well .
Thanks for sharing! Yeah, good point...I've been out for 10+ years now as well...and I don't remember much from my studies to be honest...but in social sciences/economics, the reason why schools/degrees matter is it is a "signal" to the labor market that this person is good enough... I can say that education in the Netherlands is high quality (and I say this comparing to a top school in the US). The BIG difference is the type of students. For example, If you go to a "top" school, you are surrounded by the "smartest" students. Someone else mentioned a difference is that Dutch high schools split the smart kids into the smart high schools. We do that in college in the US.
@@hidavidwen I know there is a lot of criticism on the early split being made in the Netherlands, but I think you're right that this is one of the major reasons why we maintain a decent level of education. The lessons don't have to be catered to all levels of pupils/students. The groups are more equal in level and interests. I know schools and degrees are an easy way to select potential employees, so I understand why it is being used. Unfortunately schools/degrees and actual added value in my experience don't match up that well in reality. In "my" time we had an expression for it and called these people "papieren tijgers" or paper tigers (not exactly what this term is actually used for in the Dutch language). People who have all the papers you could dream for, but haven't got a clue how to use their knowledge with real world problems. Often takes a lot of deprogramming, and realization on their part that they do not know it all. I've needed some re- and de-programming myself as well.
@@hidavidwen There's a problem with relying too much on what someone did in school. When you're in the system you don't really get to sample different things to find out what you're passionate about. There's also an issue with maturity, the prefrontal cortex is only fully developed at about age 25, at which time you should be way better in gauging consequences of your actions. Up until that time(and after of course) there's a wide variation in how well people can gauge consequences. I've seen many friends, classmates etc. only get serious well into their 20's, at which time they started to work harder, took classes to get better at their job or to be able to switch jobs. The lazy 6's culture disappeared once people found out what they were passionate about or for some when they found out it's hard to buy a house without money. I think it's hard to hire someone at age 23 and correctly predict what that person's gonna be like 10 or even 5 years later. I'm definitely way more serious and passionate about the things I want to learn and put way more effort in, for me that happened at age 25. The reason I remember is because I found my passion that year.
Zooming in on the sixes culture and comparing it to for instance the US, it might come across as a lazy system or just not enough. But when you look at the outcome of it (how are The Netherlands doing on a global level when it comes to educational level / happiness and so on) I think saving time and energy to develop other skills (like social ones) doesn't seem like such a bad idea. Being competitive to spike your grades seems great, but you want to be able to absorb what you're learning. And there will always be someone better at something, so you might get stuck with the feeling you're never good enough. But... I am Dutch, so I can hardly be called objective 😊
Grades are a snapshot of the moment , you ask those people who cramp 4 to 5 hrs a day to retake the same exam one year later with out reviewing the material and they fail miserable , ask the ones that passed with a 6 ot 7 with just 1 -1.5 hrs of home work and studying and they will out perform the one that very same exam .
Thanks for sharing-I think it's interesting to understand two very different systems when it comes to education (and many other things)-and there's no one-size-fits-all. I sometimes wonder if the Dutch model ('good enough') can be applied elsewhere...especially in bigger countries...but I don't think it's as easy as that because there are so many other factors including population size, demographics, history, etc that are so specific to each country
@@hidavidwen Depends the dutch population is not exactly small, as it is one of the larger populations in europe with 17.8 milion people , The belgians have a similar style education system. and they form the BENELUX with the netherlands and luxembourgh and have a quite standardized qualification . and put them all together you have 30 million people . the belgians dutch are not so much different from each other .
@@marcusfranconium3392 Spaced repetition and variation are unfortunately not taken into account for teaching. Together with testing they're probably the best tools for learning. With testing I mean testing your knowledge rather than vying for a grade. I think the US and Dutch system are both pretty poor in that regard. You pass a subject and then you forget about it.
@@RikSolstice Not really , as every thing i learned is critical to my profession , you dont forget things that are fundamental to every thing . You can give the same exams i had in 1995 and the exams i had in 2005 . and i will get the exact same grades as i had then , As if your foundation is shit you will retain nothing , Electricians are 16 when they have their diplomas and certification you realy think they dont remember anything form the previous 4 years . subsequent schooling , specializing in the different fields of electronics or programming etc etc. Or perhaps Engineers , designers , architects . what ever profession . All builds on what you learned since day one of highschool . Iam a maritme officer /chief engineer . you realy think i dont know or remember , how to calculate cosine used in astro navigation , or how to use Natural Logarithems for Temperature curves . Or how to calculate what the power output should be of an engine , Energy values of a fuel , number of pistons size of pistons diameter of the cilinders., stroke lengths 2 or 4 stroke number of RPM . Internal resistance . All basic formulas used in math /physics and mechanics . So if you say poor job good luck , you got shitty teachers . as its impossible to forget what you have learned as you need every single part of it .
When i transferred from community college to a 4 year, I got a 4.0 my first semester. But I consciously decided to do worse in the next semesters because I wanted to make more time for research, academic clubs, relationships and so on. And I’m really glad I did that. Leading an engineering club or competing in concrete canoe taught me so much more and gave me so many more valuable memories than what any single class could have. “Good enough” I think is more about what you’re then aiming to do with the rest of your Time.
The information you would have stamped into your brain for that better grade would have been gone by the time you left college. The things you learned leading that club and connections you made in engineering club most likely will last a life time. That is also why I disagree with the first con in the video. I think the 6s culture give you more room for growth and actually allows you to take risks you might otherwise not take. Also....concrete canoe? Some odd reason that gave me a chuckle. But that sounds hella fun and very educational.
Thanks Steffen. Looking back, I think we can both agree that was a smart move =) I also learned the most (life skills) in extracurriculars or student projects (not studying). But when you're in it (the system) and younger...it's hard to know that!
One thing I’ve noticed as a student in the American school system is that the very hardest classes sort of emulate zesjescultuur - I’m in AP Chemistry, for example, and getting an A (especially A+) is difficult to nearly impossible simply because it’s such a hard class, so even “less desirable” Bs and Cs are actually fine in that class; my teacher has also emphasised understanding over points, because if you cram for a test just to forget it afterwards, you won’t learn anything, whereas if you study to remember things, you’ll learn more and you’ll also get better grades by proxy
Can we just appreciatie how well put together all of these video's are, just shows there has been taken a lot of time to edit and research
I fully agree. For me, this vid gets a 10/10 😊 seriously 🎉
Thanks for the kind words, I really do appreciate it! 🙏
I do like the references to scientific reports.
@@esiebring7436 true, honestly a lot more youtubers should do this, makes for a much more credible video instead of some youtuber who could be saying some BS
An important point: most Dutch people speak at least two or three languages when they graduate "high school" here. Research shows that multi-language education has a very positive effect on learning, socialization, adaptation, etc. Another point: a lot of Dutch colleges/universities offer English-language degrees, including Master's degrees...
3 languages is truly stretching it.
@@youn00berthat’s why two or three is à great description oc gave
@@jerommeke_T 1 or 2 is a better description
@youn00ber That's false though. The majority of Dutch high schoolers can speak English on basic conversational level after high schoo. Than, a lot of people also take a third level. So the majority speaks two languages
@RekaCath True enough.... but there is a fair amount of Dutch people that speak at 3 languages... starting with people who go on to higher levels of education where it is required...
I mean the way the 6 culture worked in my home is that a six was great BECAUSE I was at the highest level of education I could handle and I was still doing okay there. We saw it as it being better that I was able to do "well" in this higher level than get 10s while studying one level lower. That and the fact that the amount of effort put in was more important then the grade received
Thanks for sharing!
Timeliness is a factor that is often overlooked. For a lot of people, their teenage years are not their peak years in terms of performance, self-awareness, friend- and support groups, etc. This can lead to a misdiagnosis of some kids as ungifted, where other factors are at play. A lot of kids still need time to bloom. Zesjescultuur acknowledges this, to some extent. Being more forgiving in this respect means giving young people more chances in life, which can lead to more talent being accumulated than with hard cut-offs restricting those supposedly undeserving. I did not discover my true passion until I graduated from university, only then did I start to excel. Lifelong learning should be way more important than those six years in high school where too much can be happening to disrupt the realisation of one's full potential.
Thanks for sharing! Someone mentioned the human brain continues to grow and stabilizes mid-late 20s so this makes sense
I graduated with highest honors from an Ivy League university, and I fully support and live by the philosophy of good enough is good enough. I do not give more than what is required to reach exactly what my goal is. If my goal is to get into the Ivy League and that requires a 95% average, why in the world would I lose more sleep to shoot for a 99%? Set your own goals, and do the bare minimum that is required to achieve it. I think that’s basically what the Dutch do
Exactly. You can get into any university with a 6.0 (just not every study, it can be helpful to have an 8.0), as long as you did VWO level highschool with the proper subjects for your future studies.
Thanks for sharing!
The Dutch zesjescultuur borders between choosing relaxation and socialising over overachieving and not "living" life (you work to live, not live to work mentality). For me personally, I'm struggling with severe concentration problems due to ad(h)d and extensive trauma and am only now studying at over 30 due to my circumstances. Studying in itself is a struggle already, so I'm fine with a 6. I aim for a 7.5, but as long as it's a 6, I'm not complaining. The lesson my mother tried to give me as a teenager was: "Studying and achieving things are your own responsibility. You need to put in the work, not me. But I'd rather have you get 6es through hard work, than get 8s and 9s without having to do anything for it." I think she was trying to teach me responsibility and accountability, along with self-discipline, instead of being a helicopter parent (which I believe many US parents are). We will hang our backpacks on a flag pole when graduating because "yes, we made it!", but we will NEVER brag about graduating cum laude (like the valedictorian signs in front yards) and most students who even do graduate cum laude, will either have arrogant and reputation-focused helicopter parents, or are simply trying to access a specific study programme without going through the selection process (e.g., having an 8.5 average will grant you immediate access to medicine, whereas lower averages will be randomly picked or chosen based on resume, I wouldn't know as my study programme is freely accessible. Also note that the reason they do this, is to prevent too many doctors/etc. into the work field after graduating and protecting graduates from unemployment somewhat).
Thanks for sharing your perspective and experiences! I can see that the 6 culture does contribute to student's wellbeing...which is important...when the system allows for it. I also studied at 30 so you're not alone =) Good luck!
There is an aspect that a lot of educators seem to forget. And that is the ageing of the brain. The vast majority of children/adolescents/young adults (12-25) don't have a clue of who they are or what they want to be in life, professionally or personally. Their brains will only mature around the age of 25 or so. In this context, an education in this age-span is no more than a temporary picture of ones interests and capability. The "6-s" culture fits this. In the last 10 years or so I've done about 200 job interviews with higher educated applicants (HBO-WO in the Netherlands) 25 years and older, for a function that requires analytical thinking and above average writing skills. I hardly care about their grades. They hardly mean anything. I do care about what they did professionally or personally. I want to see enthousiasm about what they are going to learn and do when hired. Because: most jobs you do not learn at any school, how highly regarded it is. And "helaas", the "achievers" are not always the best choice in this respect. The "HBO" or "University"-diploma is only an indication of minimum skills. People tend to perform best when they "fit in" an organisation. And yeah, they do exist: those who at a young age already now what they are and want to do. But for the majority it is a matter of ongoing life experience, and learning about who you are.
I am a shere example of that. I have no financial background. I was a slow starter, have a MAVO, HAVO and VWO diploma. Have no University degree, and yet I am a senior manager within a bank. During my job interviews, a bank I entered age 16 as a seasonal worker, who gave me a job offer age 25, no one asked me for my diploma's but looked at my track record only. Nowadays I train or explain complicated bank products to coworkers (and clients) who are graduated from university or business schools (who sometimes actually have problems understanding since they are more into theories rather than practicalities)
Thanks for sharing, I can relate to this too. Hm...yeah, one question I have is...what do you think about kids being split into high schools at the age of 12? It sounds like such a young age to direct a kid towards a certain path...
@@hidavidwenIn the first 2-3 years they can change. If a student goes to havo and is doing really well in the first year, they will be "promoted" to VWO. If that student performs bad/fails subjects, the student must go to VMBO. VMBO has 3 levels of its own as well. 'Basis", meaning 'Basic" for students who have difficulties to learn, "Kader", being more practical, a little bit of theory, still, for the students who dont like to be with their noses in books all day, and "Theorie", for VMBO level students who do like to get a theoratical education and maybe want to do Havo after VMBO.
@@hidavidwenIn Elementary school my daughter got VWO level advice. A friend of hers had VMBO/Havo advice, went to do Havo, turned out to do very well there and joined my daughter in second grade VWO. You do need to prove yourself tho. It is always easier to go a level lower than go a level higher.
@@hidavidwenbut if you go to a lower level of education doesn't mean you can't be succesfull in life. Some students take a few years longer. But you can work your way up. It doesn't mean you can't be a dokter. The road is just longer.
The problem with the American, that is the US way is that by competing you see the other people mainly as contestants or fiends. This is maybe the source of the anti social capitalistic mindset of many Americans. If you want to be the best this means that the others ar less. In a competition there are always more loosers than winners. In a society focused on being better this means to much discomfort and jalousy.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. Yeah...I can see your point. I mean...I never felt like there was a toxic competitive nature with my friends (like constantly competing in a game that is)...but there's a lot more comparison (who got into the better college? who got better grades? who got the internship with McKinsey? who got the XYZ)...but indirectly, it does create a lot of competition and comparison
Great video! I always have trouble trying to explain our system to all the people I meet abroad so next time i'll just show them this:)
mennn, bro. i loved this video. gives such an good inside about dutch mentality and mindset. Loved it.
I think this was exactly on point! I couldn’t have described it better. It might seem lazy, and it definitely is in some cases, but that typical Dutch efficiency is also what builds our country. And also, like you said, 30% of pupils still really tries their best at school. I think that the Dutch education system has (on solely this topic, though) found the closest thing to balance I’ve seen so far. Happiness and performance. It’s your own choice here. Maybe both, maybe little more of one than of the other. It’s up to you. That’s what I love.
I used to aim for a 7, which is kind of the risk averse version of the "zesjescultuur". I spent the some of the extra time on delving deeper into the subjects that really interested me.
Ah that's a new perspective, thanks for sharing! Makes sense
When I first went to school I didn't really care about school. I could get high grades if I tried but I hated school so my grades were inconsistent. Shortly after I was an adult I needed to go through mavo and then havo first to get into an hbo study. I just did the best with what I had and I didn't have much effort getting high grades. But... the grades I never truly cared about. But I suppose I'm a bit different in mindset than most people. I think high grades are useless if you don't actually integrate that knowledge into yourself. I got high grades because I wanted to understand what I was learning, not because I wanted a high grade.
Fascinating video, David! Super interesting to see the contrast
Thanks Marina! 🙏
nice reading suggestions, thanks!
You're welcome, thanks!
Remember sixes are not 60% numbers usualy they are 70% or 80% to have a six . Many test and exams are a minumum of 70% to 75% to pass . equaling a 6 . Also i did the bare minimum at school got sixes and sevens only studying or home work 1-1.5 hrs a day , And yet i can remember 70% of what i learned. If one needs hours of home work and studying to get a 7 or 8 . vs some one that spends 1 hr or 1.5 hrs on home work /studying a day . who is the most likely to understand the material . I had a teacher that said if you don't understand the material in class you wont understand it at home . He would give us 20-30 minutes of lecture on the material , gave home work you started in class , 10-15 questions/problems , you could ask questions or get clarification and finish the rest at home . if needed . The slower you digest information the more you retain .
Thanks for sharing. Great to see that you could do "good enough" in school and still retain so much knowledg!
@@hidavidwen I must ad that we had a ton of repetition and building on what was learned previously . This also included cross subjects like physics and math . what was learned in math carried over in to physics and visa versa. enhancing ones knowledge .
Being someone who wants to excel in their field, like you said we wil stand out but sometimes are not flexible enough. Having 6’s in your team can streamline the work and smooth things over if we do not agree on something. In a good team, 6’s often become 8’s because of the group dynamic and because they often choose their favourite career. They are often more in touch with what a team needs to excel. We are happy because we do the work we want, are good at and at 5 o’clock it’s time to go home.🥰
Thanks for sharing, that makes sense! Everyone can complement each other on a team
Hi David, this video turned out really nice! Happy i could contribute.
Kees! You found it! Oh yeah, I had on my list to send to you this Fri but glad you found it. And thanks so much, really helpful 🙏
Hey David 👋 once again, an awesome vid about a very interesting topic. Well done 👏 I found it really 'educating' 😊
Thanks!
When I was in school and uni, I tended to feel that I didn't really understand the material if I got around a 6. If I got a 7.5 or higher, I was usually satisfied that I would actually be okay on the subsequent course. Of course, I wouldn't redo a 6; it would just be an indication for me that I might need to revisit the material later. So I could min-max my studying to just get a passing grade on subjects I wasn't interested in pursuing further. It depends on the subject matter. When the material is more "modular" getting a 6 is no big deal, but in math or physics where everything builds on what you've learned before, if you keep getting sixes you'll reach a point where you can no longer keep up. As to whether it causes people to be less ambitious... I don't think so. The people around me who wanted to work harder than absolutely needed would do so. Sixes being okay just meant that someone who had to work their butt off to get sixes would still get the recognition for those efforts. I also don't think that the extra time is "wasted" if you use it for leisure activities. The whole "spending all your time on social media" thing is a separate issue, but if you're happier playing and just doing the minimum academically I don't think it's going to be to anyone's benefit if you'd be forced to learn piano or something instead.
Thanks for sharing. Agree there are certain subjects where 6+ is actually preferable. But yeah I appreciate the mentality that getting 6 is fine
It works because of the 5.5 grading in the Netherlands. It is harder to get a 5.5 than in many other countries
It's linear also. Lets say you have 10 questions. Every question is 1 point. You have them all correct? good 10 points. Offcoarse you can get 0.x points per question.
@@HermanWillemssometimes we even have a rating system that really screws you over. i remember a French test that had 50 questions and if you had 7 of them wrong you already failed it. luckily we can't get a grade lower than a 1, but whit a rating like that you hit that 1 even if you're able to answer over 75% correctly.
Thanks for sharing!
@@ChristiaanHWTotally true! Who remembers "two faults a point" for a test with hundreds of language words?
Nice video, as always! 👍 I do have some remarks/thoughts though. My apologies for the extremely long comment. A bit of background: I'm from the Netherlands and have studied at both HBO (University of Applied sciences) and WO (University) + I've thought physics at 'high school' for 2 years, so I have quite some experience in the Dutch education system. And my remarks/thoughts are from my experiences of course. This 'zesjescultuur' is definitely stronger in high schools than at university and at university (or HBO) it is strongest in the first year. In high school this is of course due to puberty phase that kids go through and the rebellious phase (almost) everyone goes through. They want to do fun stuff (nowadays often being on social media/gaming) in stead of going to school and learn. They still want to pass their classes though and therefore you get the zesjescultuur. Some remarks on this: 1. I think it is dependent on the subject in high school (for the majority of students). I've had students who hated physics and they didn't care about it, but they needed it for their final exams, so they tried to get that 6 and be done with it. Subjects they did like better (for example biology) they did do a lot of work for and try to get as high of a grade as possible. And I've also seen it the other way around. Myself many years ago is a good example of that. I wasn't interested in languages at all, so I just tried to get a 6 for those courses, but I loved science and did my best for those subjects. 2. It is dependent on the students' state of mind. When I was teaching I've had students go up and down in grades a lot, due to things that happened in their lives outside of school. An extreme case: The parents of a student were splitting up and of course that affected her a lot. Her grades went down and it took a while before she dared to tell one of her teachers what was happening at home. Because of that, we all knew we could give her a bit of a break / be more lenient with her and told her that (for the time being) it wasn't the worst thing in the world if her grades dropped a bit, as long as she tried to not fall down completely (to grades below pass). Luckily for her she had quite high grades, so she could 'take the hit'. In this sense I think the 'zesjescultuur' is a good thing and does indeed help with the mental health of students. And again, I know it is an extreme case and that this student could get some lower grades without getting in danger of not passing, but I just used it as an example. 3. In your video you said something in the lines of 'that parents didn't really push their kids to have higher grades'. In my experience that is not true at all, especially the last years. I've only taught 2 years, so I don't know about before, but many of my colleagues who did teach longer, told me that parents are pushing their kids more and more and even from a younger age. Even from elementary schools you hear more and more stories of parents ignoring the schools advice and putting kids in a 'higher' level of education, because the parents want that. For example, the school advises a kid to go to VMBO-T (average high school level), but the parents sign them up for HAVO (a level 'higher' than VMBO-T). Also, some of the things parents said during parent-teacher conferences shocked me. An example: I had a student with only 7 and higher on their list and the parents were still asking what their kid could do to improve their grade. The kid was sitting in between them, looking quite awkward/embarrassed. So, I asked him how much he studied and it was a staggering number in my opinion (it sounded like he almost had no life). As a teacher I told him to talk to a 'study coach' (some one at school who helps students with how they study) to see how he could do LESS and hopefully more efficient (in the short conversation that I had it sounded like he was basically just memorising everything, but not really understanding how it all worked). So, parents definitely do push their kids. And of course, not all parents do, but the overall trend seems to be that it is getting more and more. I've not lived/studied in USA, so it might be more there, I wouldn't know. So I can't compare this with USA. 4. At university level it is a bit different. In the first year I think there are still quite some students with the 'zesjescultuur', but that has more to do with starting studying and often living on your own for the first time. People move to a different city, start living with peers in stead of parents and can do what they want (within the limits of their money😅). So, many of them start to party often or join societies and do a lot of social activities. This time has to come from somewhere and is often taken from their study time. This creates a 'zesjescultuur' as well, although not everyone who does this can get through the first year and in general in the second year there will be more students left who don't have this 'six mentality' than the first year. And if you reach the masters' level, almost everyone has 'matured' enough and you barely see it anymore (again in my experience). And it can of course still happen that for some of the classes you have you are happy with a 6, because you think it is boring or it is very difficult, but generally I think it is gone. People are also looking more into jobs at that time and know that grades might become a factor when applying. When you go from high school to university or from bachelor to master studies, this isn't really the case (with some exceptions of course). Again, apologies for the extremely long comment (basically an essay now...), but here are my thoughts on it. Have a nice day everyone!
As a Dutch student I highly agree with point 1. I sucked at languages so it was al 6 +-0.5 But I loved sciences and biology. I never wanted to do anything with biology but I found it so interesting, it was (one of my) highest scoring classes.
Thanks for the kind words and long reply Jeroen-this is where the learning really happens so appreciate you for sharing. 1. Yeah I've learned that's a strategy many use...to not waste as much time/energy on classes that didn't interest them...which is smart to learn at a young age for the real world (working smarter vs. harder) 2. Yeah, it's great to hear wellbeing is built into the system (whether directly or indirectly) because we know that 'performance/competition' leads to stress 3. Oh yeah...I can see that some parents do push their children (some don't). Yeah and good point, all families (people) are different 4. I did a Masters and there were definitely some Dutch students who were "zesjescultuur" students but also quite a few who were high achievers and got the highest marks in the class. I can imagine it to be more dominant in high school...but perhaps once you're in university, you've chosen a study you want to study and have more motivation?
@@hidavidwen I do think that at university people actually study what they want and that this is indeed the reason the 'zesjescultuur' is less yes. Makes sense as well.
I really like the point you're making at 10:46 about it really depends on what you spend your time on. So I was a proud member of the zesjescultuur, since I could pass my BSc and MSc, whilst doing voluntary work and working as a studentassistent for the Uni. I notice that I'm getting positive results from having already some work experience when applying for jobs, whereas I've NEVER been asked about my grades during a job interview. I think grades matter in very specific areas!
There is an aspect of the Dutch grading system i dont think you’ve mentioned: When the average grade for an exam is too high, or in other words, the distribution of all grades is too high, teachers will make the same exam more difficult next year. I have heard this from teachers in both engineering WO and business school
🇳🇱 🇺🇸 What do you think about the Dutch and/or US education systems? How about your country’s education system? ℹ️ Research/sources: - Nuffic Grading Conversion (NL vs. US vs. UK): people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~marten/pdf/gradingsystems.pdf - Maximizers (Perfectionists) vs. Satisficers (Good Enough): pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12416921/
Considering that a huge part of US students know nothing beyond their own country, i'd say the US schooling system is very poor. Look at everything the Netherlands has accomplished throughout history, especially with technology. You don't stop learning when you leave school, most knowledge is being fine-tuned at the workplace. Having a good quality work/life balance makes doing the work more fun and therefor you learn perfecting things at work with greater ease. Whereas in the US people are stressed out and being pushed to the limit, this already starts at school and carries through to the workplace. Living/working like that does not promote doing a good job, it promotes fear of losing a job and undermines working for actual quality.
Heeeeeeujjj, you went to Maastricht University, I'm studying there now! :P
@@powerpuff_avenger lol, i'm from Maastricht as well.
@@mrnobody043 I'm not from Maastricht, but the rival city on the right. But I study in Maastricht and Wageningen (simultaneously).
@@powerpuff_avenger Two universities at once, that must be a busy schedule ! well, i hope you enjoy your time here.
Im flabbergasted to see my comment in your video. Love it❤
Haha well thanks for sharing! I do read everything and have probably learned the most from people like you sharing (and I’m sure others learn a lot too)..so very much appreciate it! 🙏🙏
In Germany we have a similar thing. Our grades are from 1 (best) to 6 (worst) and a "4" is exaclty passing. So our motto is "Vier gewinnt" - which is also the german name for "Connect four" ("four wins" is the word-for-word tranlation)
At high school I had a feeling that I knew who would be able to achieve succes and I didn't think it necessarily has to do with grades. There is a lot you don't learn during your education. There are successful people who did not fit it in or quit school and are very successful.
Thanks for sharing. True...there are many successful people who quit school. I don't know about the Netherlands...but in the US, those are "outliers." We hear about them (Steve Jobs, Bill Gates)...but the reality is that the system is set up to favor those with degrees, especially from brand name universities. But I agree...being smart in school does not mean you will be smart in life/career...they are two different worlds
its unheard of to actually drop out of school before finishing at least MBO or HAVO, as these are made for everyone to pass even who struggle with school. They are made so everyone can achieve passing grades. Only cases where children struggle with mental problems do they drop out or other very rare cases. (as the "leerplichtwet" (by law) which states that every child has to finish a start qualification or turn 18 before they are allowed to stop with their education)@@hidavidwen
I had the advantage that I knew which direction I wanted to go with my education, technical studies. So I had a goal. I struggled through highschool (MAVO, which is now comparable to VMBO) and barely made it. But I got my diploma (just) and went to MBO (MTS), the Middle Technical School (for civil and constructional engineering), where I graduated with high grades and an extracurricular course, physics. All sevens, eights and nines, my parents were flabbergasted, and honestly so was I. But I has fun, I reached my goal. And after that I extended my technical studies and went to HBO (HTS), the Higher Technical School with, not excellent but, good grades. I could have gone to HAVO (my test results and advice was MAVO/HAVO) and then HTS, that would be 3 years faster, but I would have flunked. Now I have an excellent and very good paid job at an international construction company in The Netherlands. I speak conversational and technical English and German (and Dutch of course) and on my to-do-list is improving/enhancing my French (which is on the level of only speaking single words, not sentences), because I now work at an international, but French owned, construction company. So it took me little longer but I am satisfied with the result. I could have studied longer and went to TU Technical University, but because I did a lot longer about my education, I wanted to work instead of studying another 4 years. And this study is too theoretical for me, I want to work on a building site every now and then. My current job gives me lots of fun and lots of money. So no regrets, none.
Wow thanks so much for taking the time to share your story. I felt like I was right there with you through your journey =) And nice to hear of all the moves you made...and where you are now! And really nice to hear your current job gives you lots of fun and money! Most people don't enjoy their jobs (but we spend so much time at work!)
Its also important to note that when we are done with our third year of high school (at least for HAVO and VWO) we get to choose a "vakkenpakket" which means we pick one of four options which determines what classes we follow so for example I have chosen the E&M profile so my classes include dutch, english, maths, history and economics then at VWO we need to choose another language and you can choose between french and german. Then you need to pick two classes of your free choice so I went for geology and business economics. So I was bad at chemistry but i got to drop it and could focus on classes that actually interest me and are the base of what I want to do in my future.
Thanks for sharing
Such an enlightening video! I did my undergrad in South Africa (my home country), before immigrating to the Netherlands for my Masters. South Africa also has a pretty competitive education system that values high achievement and being “the best”, with an added caveat at the university level of particularly harsh grading, or rather that the numbers that represent grades look significantly “lower” than other countries. So an A/“first degree pass” at a South African university is 75% and up, for example. I did fairly well, usually getting between 70-75%, sometimes a little higher if I got especially lucky lol. Then when I started my MA in NL, I got an 8.8 on my first assignment and I was absolutely shocked. I had never gotten such a high grade before - and now I am wondering if it’s due to a combination of a) SA’s grading system being a bit harsher/grades appearing lower and b) that I was working with a “perfectionist/performance” attitude rather than the “sixes” attitude of NL. I’m now doing my PhD, so I am of course now teaching students/grading assignments myself, and I have definitely noticed the culture of doing the bare minimum quite a bit, even at a university level. But overall, having come from such a severely competitive environment through my entire school and university career - which has left me with self-esteem issues, imposter syndrome, the works - I have found the system here refreshing. I don’t know if I will ever truly be “liberated” from my performance anxiety, but this is a much less hostile environment - especially in academia!!
Thanks for sharing your experiences, especially from South Africa! And glad you could relate as well...and I also feel a bit more "liberated" too =)
To add to this, this culture allows people in university to spend more time on the courses/matter that is interesting for them. For example, for non interesting courses a 6-7 is plenty. However, courses that one chooses themselves generally are finished with higher grades 8-9 as more time is available.
Thanks for sharing...I've come to understand that philosophy now =)
Absolutely true! Sometimes you need to study hard to get a 6, and for other courses you get a 9 without even trying.
I find the "full potential" argument weak, im someone who did get 5 or 6 in grade/high school, there were compounding reasons for this but lets just say didnt like learning. As I got older, went into uni and studied what I liked, i got 4-5(5 being max) on scale of 1-5, really what it took for me to "reach full potential" was learning what I enjoy and being with people who share that passion and not being pushed to do things I hate.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, makes sense
You always have the most interesting comment sections, mainly because you ask good questions and show an eagerness and openness to learn. Kudos to you. I was in middle schoo/high school from 2006-2012, on VWO level. My writing was quite bad and so in Dutch languages classes I always got the maximum amount of minuspoints for my papers and some quizzes (most of the times this was -2 points. So if my paper was perfectly for the rest I could only get an 8, if it was a good paper only a 6 was viable) (p.s. still don't understand why i was never tested on dyslexia, but that's besides the point). So I knew I had the work hard to get that grade high enough and was very happy I could slack of a bit in other classes to keep my Dutch language class high enough. Biology, worldstudies? (aardrijkskunde), where quite easy for me and with low effort (paying attention in class) I could get a 6,5-7,5. Knowing that that was good enough without have to put in double the time, gave me te freedom to spend that on Dutch language papers or other classes which where more difficult for me. I did the same in university, deceding to only hand in a paper with an outline of my argument and my name instead of a full blown paper (1 hour of work compared to say 40 hours) because with the other grades it would still be a 6, gave me the time of day to also finish some other courses. Which meant I wouldn't have to take those courses the next year and made that i finished earlier than if I had decided to write that paper to get an 8 in one subject but a 4 in two others, was worth it. I can see problems with this attitude, I noticed that in my work i sometime make those calculations as well, I will spend less energy here so I can keep this other one up. But maybe it would be better to contact my boss and say, this is work I can't do on my own and it would be better to share this load instead of delivering a suboptimal result. Another problem is that it is harder for me to focus a 100% on something and that i do 10 thing for 60% while i could do 6 thing for 100% an that is in work often better.
Thanks for the kind words and for sharing. I can see how it helps students "get by" in school. Also interesting to hear that the "mindset" also shows up at work...and sounds like you're learning how to prioritize and seek help when it is needed...because that mindset still works...but in the workplace...one needs to learn how to work efficiently with a team
Hi David. Thank you for another very good material that makes you put yourself some questions. As a parent of a Romanian student who studying in Amsterdam, this mentality of sixes almost comes involuntarily. You don't have it (and you never thought you would have it), you don't want it, but you see that you can't do much more than that. This is also because you come from another culture where grades mattered (let's say that you come from best high school in the country) and where the last graduate in the class had a grade of 9.5. Here (at Business Administration at UVA), although he studies as he did before, he can't even come close to the grades he had. And surely there is frustration caused by: helplessness, uncertainty, you wonder if you are really as good as you thought you were or if the system simply doesn't seem right. So in conclusion, even if you don't adopt the culture of sixes, you end up living it.And more than that you see those who have adopted it are happy. And you not so much. Take care of yourself!
Thanks for sharing this-especially as a parent of a Romanian student. Yeah it can be challenging to come from a very different culture and mindset. Have you come to accept this mentality?
I was shocked when my 13 years old son came back home with 6 from 10 ( Gymnasium ) and he satisfied with it . I'm from Thailand where the high grade is a must and always comparing with others. I do agree that the 6 here is much more learned than the 10 there . After my husband share me your story. I feel relax and happy with the happiness and quality of 6 from my son.😊 Thank you so much for your message .
The fact your son goes to Gymnasium already means he's in the top 1%* of students in the country, if he pulls through, he'll be in the top 0.5%,* even with a 5.5 average across all subjects. *Might actually be even better
@@PeterJavi Where do you get 1% from? I'm mostly finding data stating they make up about 7% of high school students.
I really appreciate this "Zesjescultuur(six culture)" in Netherlands. Cuz from where I come(China), everyone is pushing themselves too much, excessively pursuing a good grade. This causes a very unhealthy competition between peers, thus making the threshold of being happy with grades skyrockets. I felt so upset when I saw my grade under 80/100. However, the truth is you're definitely good enough with a passing grade, put more time into enjoying your life!
Thanks for sharing! Aw yes I know about the education in China, it is even more difficult.
Mental health here in the Netherlands has been regressing for quite a while. Especially in recent years among young people. Well, it isn't quite as bad as China obviously, but... a situation worsening is also obviously never a good thing.
Ohh, I don't know about this. I am studying here now but most of my friends are internationals, so I have no idea how much pressure Dutch students experience... Guess that's kinda associated to worldwide economy recession, which makes the competition fiercer? Whatever happiness is the most important ;) @@thenonexistinghero
@@viktorrrrrr It's not so much pressure from studies as it is the negative effects of how our government has shaped society here to be. There's no future to work towards for most young people anymore. Buying a house is impossible, saving up money is becoming harder and harder, taxes are getting higher and they're adding more and more taxes, etc. Financial pressure just keeps growing. This country is among the worst in the world when it comes to taxing its citizens. The government just keeps spending exponentially more, keeps asking exponentially more... but people's spendable incomes aren't growing, they're actually shrinking. Young people who are working are experiencing these issues. And young people who are still studying already see the terrible future that awaits. The Netherlands is the perfect example of a country where you're allowed to do what you want to do... as long as it falls in line with what the government wants you to do. And if not... while you won't get jailed, you'll experience quite a severe backlash. And it's not in plain sight... it's through an excessive amount of red tape that you'll encounter the moment you basically start to veer from your set 'right' path. There are a decent amount of young people who do know it's like this, but... the government has also destroyed every single tool citizens can use to actually do something about the situation. For every small victory people would obtain, they'd incur 10 major losses. And as such.. those who do figure out ways to get a decent amount of money often actually leave the country because there's no future here. I'd say that's a pretty major contributor to the heavy increase in mental illness here (but not the only one).
I think it's good that 'good enough' is actually good enough and not frowned upon.
Thanks for sharing, agree!
I'm a "zesjestudent" (although I averaged about a 7) and made it all the way to a MSc in Biochemistry. A former classmate of mine was even more of a zesjesstudent and she's got her PhD in Neuroscience. I know quite a few people that were excellent students in high school (9-10 scores) that somehow couldn't make it in university. Also, I'd like to add... a lot of guys I was in high school with went to technical universities later on but had big trouble passing the language classes in high school. Those guys typically compensated their 5's for French and German with an 8 for Physics. I admire people who always get the highest grades so I don't want to defend the sixes culture too much but I do think that it made me more stress resilient. I'm now a politician and have to do a lot of quick thinking and improvising. I'm confident and able to fail without breaking to pieces. They say in order to run a marathon you don't have to actually run a marathon in training. You just train 80% and it will enable you to do the full stretch once it matters. I feel like, at least for me, this was the case for school grades too.
I moved from the US to Ireland to finish up my studies. InIreland, students take academics seriously but don’t necessarily brag or worry about their grades. While being here, I made a Dutch friend and she explained the grading system in the Netherlands. I’ve definitely noticed the “that’s good enough” vibe from her. Not just in school but also in other things. I’ve also noticed the “do normal/don’t stick out” vibe. As an American, it isn’t necessarily hard for me to watch my friend not go to her fullest potential and at the same time only do what everyone else does. I try to encourage her nonetheless. I think it’s ironic that the Dutch have that “don’t stick out” culture, as they seem to be some of the most progressive people in the world 😂😂😂
„Doe maar normaal, dat is al gek genoeg" mentality is all about profiling yourself. The Dutch normally don't like people to show off. One of my best friends comes from a rich family. He is rich, but will not show off or brag about it. He dresses normally, has a fast car but not the most extravagant, fancy one. Whenever you are smart, we don't appreciate you brag about it. We have egalitarity within our companies. While in most countries there is a world of difference between the top and the blue collar workers. In the bank I work for, the CFO is highly approachable.
I don't think Irish students take academics seriously at all, most strive for a pass, a large minority strives for the maximum grade and a small minority don't care, I'd say most are happy just passing, they don't stress about their grade, that's quite an unusual thing here, unlike in The USA or many Asian countries where it's quite common. I don't think we have the "good enough" mindset but a more balanced one of if you got the top grade great, if you didn't no worries. I find it weird that in dutch culture people who excel are ridiculed, very strange & bad in my opinion. (Edit) May I ask what university you went to and how you found it? I'm not sure whether I want to study here or abroad.
Yeah, I definitely, I understand where you see that about Irish students, if they get a good grade, they go out to drink and have fun, if they get a bad grade, they go out to drink and have fun 😂😂😂. To answer your question, I am finishing at University Of Limerick, amazing school! If your choice of study is there, I highly recommend! Housing here is also not limited, so I suggest searching now for a place off campus. You can also apply for international student accommodation. I’m not sure if it’s on campus tho. Ireland is a nice place to live, you won’t have any problems. Public transport isn’t as good as in the Netherlands but it does the job. I’m thinking of studying at Hanze Hogeschool University Of Applied Sciences Groningen! I want to further my studies. @@Anonymoose66G
@@nicholasmescher5393 My bad for not being clear, I live in Ireland 😂. However to be completely honest I'm not the biggest fan of Ireland and would probably rather live in another country like Norway, since it better suits my persona. Limerick's not too far away from me, like half an hour, I've heard the uni is pretty good but the city itself pretty lack luster with alot of drug related crime and an overall sketchy vibe. Nice looking city though, and yeah the public transportation here is very lack luster, nothing compared to The Netherlands but it does the job. May I ask what your studying? Limerick's known for its degrees for a teaching career. It also doesn't have as bad of a housing crisis as Dublin has so students actually have accommodation and aren't living in tents 😂.
Omg I’d also love to live in Norway! Sweden may be a possibility too.I have ancestors from Norway. I’m interested in learning Swedish bc it’s the more useful language and you can understand a lot of the other Scandinavia languages, so I hear. How do we get there? 😂😂 I’m studying Exercise and Health Fitness Management. What about you? I love how we are having our own little conversation here.@@Anonymoose66G
during high-school I did try to get 8's, not 6. because I wanted to vwo (and uni) and not havo. I didn't care about 9 or 10. At a certain moment a teacher uses us (me and another student) as the scale. If we got lots of things correct, then the test seems to be easy and he is more strict and when we got lots of error then the test must be difficult and every got a bonus
Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for the video, very insightful and interesting to have an "outsider" look at the more odd aspects of Dutch culture. I feel a bit ambivalent about zesjescultuur. I went to HAVO and HBO and passed everything apart from English and the vocational subjects with a 6, but I did apply for a master's program after a few years of working and got in regardless of my less than admirable results. Something about the university and my class clicked so well with me I passed the program within a hair of cum laude. After that I got more into performance culture and worked my socks off in the years after, but crashed hard and had to recover for months. Now I guess I'm back to zesjesctuur. Good enough is probably good enough, why go the extra mile if it costs your sanity and well-being.
Thanks for sharing 🙏 haha back and forth. I think I’ve come to appreciate the good enough mindset though
In my case, I follow two university programms, which also means that I always have double the work. For me it is about getting the best grade possible in the situation that I was in and whether I worked for my grade. And if that is a 6, I'm happy.
I would like to know what a 6 actually equals to in American education. The most obvious would be a C, barely passing. But when I look on rankings of education worldwide the Netherlands ranks top ten. Is it possibly the 6 equals like a B in level of what people have learned? Perhaps it is just a C? Perhaps it equals a D? I think knowing what it equals to in level of what the student has learned is important in this discussion.
A 10 would be an „A", a six is barely enough to pass. A five is insufficient. I passed high school with 6 and 7, have no University degree, but I am a senior manager within a bank nevertheless, without financial background. Just experience on the ground, starting as a seasonal worker as of age 16. In the Netherlands most students are not as stressed, so perhaps that is the reason why Dutch children perform better? Most parents will not push their children to the limit, while we have the ability for financial support of our government.
@@Haroekoe yes, maybe I didn't explain what I meant well enough. An A within the school with the best education would probably gain you a higher level of education than an A within a school ranked worst for education. Those two As are not equal to each other in level of knowledge aquired, yet they are still both As. The same for barely passing in both schools. If barely passing gains you a higher level of knowledge in one school than the other than the metric 'barely passing' is irrelevant to me. I care specifically about how much and what information they gained. So my question is has a student who barely passed in the Netherlands gained more, less, or about equal knowledge as a student who barely passed in the United States of America. Unless that is what you are trying to say and I miss understood that.
I don't know for me the culture of doing the bare minimum is flawed, especially if those who get 10's are ridiculed, I personally always aim for a 10, this doesn't mean I'm stressed or even studying 😂. If I get a 7 then that's okay, but realistically I think whenever I get below an 8 that's a poor grade and whenever I get a 10 then I know I have no further improvement so I have succeeded. I think just passing is a poor milestone, one should aim for at least an 8, a 10 maybe a bit too high and could cause stress.
@@Haroekoe My graduate course at Harvard was graded A. Leiden University included it as one of my electives and deemed it an 8. Seems that A is not always a 10. On your other remark, so true. I once read a book about what a whole number of people did with their law degree in the USA. A remarkable high number of people chose a different career, from writing detectives or children books to investment banking or starting their own business, and I assume the Netherlands is not different on that.
@@bz7672Ahaaaaa, I 'll get it. You are right. An A in the one school is entirely different to an A at another school, indeed. I attended good high schools giving me a good foundation. Also both my parents were educated. BTW we are immigrants from a former Dutch colony. Nowadays we have a lot of so called „black achools" These schools are attended mostly by youngsters with a migration background, like us, but their parents are often non Dutch speaking and are low or not educated. I never realised but you are right, the 6s I achieved got me where I am nowadays, since I am smart and eloquent in Dutch and English, while a 6 from the young people on these schools will not be sufficient for them, since they are not able to express themselves properly, and they will be easily identifiable as 6 by future employers....
The 'zesjescultuur' (I'm Dutch) is great for high school where you have to learn stuff which might not interest you at all, like in my case chemistry for example, although I probably had to work harder for some of my 6's than others for their 9's or 10's. Once you attend college or university, you should get more interested in what you are learning, because you made the choice to study in a certain direction. Now you are almost grown up and should realize if you want to be successful and want to get noticed in your field, the sixes culture will not suffice anymore. Do you want the great job and the great projects? Or are you fine with just hanging around the coffee machine most part of the day and do as little as possible until it is 5pm so you can finally go home and play videogames or watch TV? You are free to do whatever you want of course, but if you are not willing to apply yourself to achieve something you shouldn't expect great opportunities coming your way. I think The Netherlands is no different than the US or any other country in this way.
How many time did they ask for your grades in a job interview or wanted to see your diploma's? In my case it is 0 in my 23 years of work and 6 jobs (all in software and i graduated as a electronic engineer). Employers know very well that what you are taught is the beginning and you are quite useless when you start because you need experience.
Thanks for sharing and good points you made. That…hopefully people find their motivations later in life…and work hard towards whatever that is. I think that’s what will also help not only the economy/society but also each person (I work professionally helping employees grow in their careers and see that the most “happy” employees are those that have the most awareness and are actively applying their strengths to the work they do…and they genuinely and naturally work hard when they’ve found “it”)
I can go home at 3 pm (while being paid full time) and play video games (but I also work in the garden, go hiking or do other outdoor things, or visit my grandmother before dinner) You could say I am overqualified for my job and I am an underachiever, but I like it this way. Less stress. Less money, yes, but enough to live comfortably in one of the best countries in the world.
Dutch kids are 11-12 years old when they take the national CITO exam in their last grade of elementary school. This is used to see on what level a kids score on different subjects. It's not a make or break thing for kids but high schools use that information and how well a kid has done in school the following two school years. Then there's a selection every year of to see in what tier a student is put in for classes. The most difficult tier is VWO (Gymnasium being the hardest because you get taught Greek and Latin and then just below that Atheneum which doesn't include Greek and Latin), then HAVO, then MAVO and then VMBO. Then there's PO where you go to a special school to learn a trade. At the end of every school year a student and the school decide in what tier a kid will be the following school year based on the grades from that previous school year. So for example if you get 9s and and 10s for exams the entire school year that were on a MAVO difficulty then there's a chance you can be put in the HAVO or VWO tier the next school year. Then when they graduate high school and they wanna go to college they can if they at least graduated in HAVO because the subject matter would be too hard for people that graduated in a tier below HAVO
Thanks for sharing. What do you think about the exam at 11/12 years old? It seems like that could determine someone’s future at a young age…
It really depends on where you put the bar of ‘good enough’. I usually try to work smart by applying the 80-20-rule 3 times. This iteration gets me to 99,2% result with the least amount of effort. And that’s what school taught me with its sixes-culture: that I’m allowed to work smart and iterate on my previous result, even if it isn’t perfect. Because it will be ‘good enough’ after the third iteration. 😊
Americans are so hyped its amusing to the rest of the planet.
Being a Dutch colony for ~350 years until 1945 (ie. Indonesia), I too lived with quite a happy cut-off point of 6 in school in my primary/secondary years. A six gave me some assurance that I am indeed quite ok and not left behind 😁. Great video Dave. Will share with my daughter who now studies in Holland 😃. Btw I personally believe “too-much competition culture” may be bred out of too-much greed and/or too-much fear.
Thanks Andy! Yeah competition culture definitely creates a lot of greed/fear in the environment... Good luck to your daughter in her studies!
The Guy at 1:58 is influencer Jonathan Medart and actually from Belgium. This was a saying Joanathan did during “Marathonradio”. Marathonradio is an initiative from Belgian radio station MNM to help students get through their exams.
We all know that the second you leave the classroom after an exam all is forgotten instantly anyway
Hah thanks for sharing
Well, it has been over 30 years since i went to school, but having a 6 did mean you passed the exam. Ofcourse, a better grade is nice, but the ultimate goal is to pass, so a 6 is ok. If you know the study material and are confident you will pass if you only get a 6 it brings some ease of mind. You dont have to stress yourself trying to get every question right and you can allow yourself some small room for failure.
Same here , the A/B B/C C/D levels as well had different grading weights . And a 6 is a pass and it means you have sufficient knowledge to move on , and a six could mean you need 70% to pass . During my maritime school days you needed a 70% to pass marcom A .theory a 60 for both practical and geographic locations of radio stations . (which where hundreds across the globe and not with all the easy to pronounce names. )
Thanks for sharing. I'm curious...does the sixes/zesjescultuur mindset also apply in the real world/workplace?
@@hidavidwen Actually the opposite , in my profession ,and in my case maritime /offshore /Dredging sector. You wont last long if you don't perform . As soon some one is in an internship or first time on the job , they are ridden hard to become fully autonomous . And they need to prove themselves if you don't meet the standards your gone with in the first port of call. Task books must be finished with in a certain time otherwise they dont get their diplomas or certification . And with ship engineers you better get to grips with all aspects of the ship as soon as possible and deliver quality work other wise the chief engineer or the 2nd engineer get very annoyed that they have to redo your work or have to check your work till you can be trusted .
@@hidavidwen No, not my experience. I work in a big factory, and the things we do there are not learned at school but on the workfloor. I am operator on a cold steel rolling mill and learning to handle the huge machines takes years. Some have feeling for is and become very good operators and some are less good. Some people have absolutly no feeling for it, you have to make decisions in split seconds and if you make the wrong one it ends with stops of production. We find other jobs for those people. I do see a change over the years, 30 years ago there was a job for everyone in the factory. People who did not learn fast always could find a simpler job like driving a crane or packing and transport. But because of modernization more and more simple jobs are taken over by robots and there is no longer any place for operators that can not find their way with operating computer controlled equipment.
Interesting, I've actually never heard of the 'sixes culture'. Im dutch myself, now in my last year of the mavo. I now do realise a lot of kids at my school has such a mindset, its just sad that most of them are having a hard time mentally, most of the times because of school, social media and their parents, and it sucks, I also had problems with it(I'm okay now). What im trying to say the teachers and the kids might be okay with the sixes culture but most parents aren't. And the influence that sociale media gives them(the kids) also makes them feel like theyre not worth it so they either end up having depression, giving up or in some(very few cases like mine)way trying to do better, having a more positive mindset, and maturing in seeing the reality.
Thanks for sharing. Oh social media…I can imagine it to be difficult growing up with it…all the social comparisons Wish you well and thanks for sharing your experiences
As someone who has studied at both a Dutch university and also a Dutch university of applied sciences (hogeschool) I can say that especially at the university of applied sciences you honestly get a passing grade for just trying. They literally tell us "it's okay to make mistakes, you learn from them" and as long as they can see that you tried your best it doesn't even matter if the result is good or bad, you pass the subject (at least in the course I'm taking). And man that's such a nice way of studying
Haha thanks for sharing. Curious...did you learn a lot and did that motivate you?
Tests also get adjusted so that a 6 is the average, like with the highschool final exams there is an adjustment term (n-term) so that the average grade nationwide is around a 6
I overworked myself trying to get as many 10's as I could cause I knew I could master the subject within the time I'd been giving Problem was I also had homework that no matter how easy the subject was hard for me to finish If I would have been able to focus on studying the way I wanted to I probably wouldn't have overworked myself and gotten better grades And btw I did all of this in Dutch high school after having lived in the Netherlands for all previous years of my life and both of my parents are fully Dutch So I guess I'm probably an outlier here but pls understand that especially among kids in VWO overworking yourself for the best grades you can possibly get is still very much a thing Which I should (anecdotally of course) know cause me overworking myself ended up with me being placed in HAVO and VMBO-TL after my first year of VWO And now 6 years later I am still sitting at home cause I burnt myself out so bad that I have headaches that prevent me from working or studying 24/7 😅
Thanks for sharing your story. I hope you recover and get better soon
I think it would've been better for me if 'zesjescultuur' wasn't a thing. It really trickles down to every part of your life as a secondary school student. Non of my friends had to do anything for school and HAVO was good enough, so we all chose to go there instead of VWO. We didn't show up for school and actually had a competition to see who could miss most classes without getting caught. A 6 was good enough and we all passed with ease while playing games in the cafeteria. Teachers didn't bother us because they knew we would pass, so they could focus on students who actually needed their guidance. I regretted it after graduating because I had no idea how to study or what I wanted to do with my life. Only one person in my life even bothered to find out what I wanted to do and that was my German teacher (my parents didn't care(don't feel sorry for me)). He actually saw potential and even tried to get me into VWO German. This culture is great when you get to optimize it, but when your life isn't great it's a way to escape your life because you don't have to participate. Non of my friends had good home lives and this just allowed us to escape notice from everyone for a few hours a day.
Thanks for sharing this different perspective 🙏 glad to hear you had a teacher that saw potential in you (a great teacher can make the biggest difference in one’s life). Yeah…the real world can be scary…it’s not so structured…and looking back, I think schools could do a better job of guiding students towards that real world
But i can imagine that in the US there are under achievers as well? Only there all students, of all levels, are in the same class. In the Netherlands there are also a lot of parents that push their children to be at VWO. Havo not being good enough. VMBO tends to be looked down on. That does not fit "zesjes cultuur".
For me, 6 sixes culture developed in me within the first year of high school. Before I always wanted 10's (A). But after getting 2 or 3 tests a week, I couldn't care less anymore. Now that I am studying at the AUAS, my grades went back up because the quantity of tests has decreased.
Haha I’ve heard this before..makes sense, thanks!
My parents think that I'm doing quite badly in school because I have 7's and 8's but my teachers always tell them that I'm doing amazingly. Really funny.
Growing up as a perfectionist in the Netherlands was hard, because of the tall puppy syndrome. I think i would have done better in a competitive system. However, i did spend some time at US universities and was utterly shocked by how easy it was to get an A. The Dutch educational system makes the zesjescultuur succeed. I completely agree with the statement that we learned critical thinking, which is thoroughly missing in the average US school. But then i started working in international companies and realized i did not do well with competition. I absolutely hate ranking systems, because it kills any motivation to team working and achieving higher standards. I am now leaning to valuing trust over achievement, since i learned about this system in the US army. And it would fit with both cultures: trust someone that learned their theory well, but is not motivated only by being better than his peers. Loved your video! Spot on!
Thanks for sharing Monique. Yeah what I've learned is that we are all different as humans and some may be better off in different "systems." You remind me of a Dutch guy named Paul-who I found on the streets of San Francisco and interviewed for a video-he told me the US was better suited to his personality/interests. And thanks for sharing the trust over achievement theory...makes sense! I work in HR as kind of like an organizational psychologist and trust is the biggest thing (academics call it psychological safety) that leads to the best performance over time..but not easy to build!
There's a lot of grade inflation in the US. Parents will even directly bother their children's teachers to try to pressure them to change the grades at this point because they cannot be allowed to "fall behind". Such is the consequence of focusing so much on grades and having a culture of fear of leaving left behind.
Do you live to work, or work to live? Think about it, seriously!
Haha one of life's most important questions!
I'll contribute as a Dutch person with (not necessarily voluntary) '6' mentality, but that is also a teacher and lector at some high ranking Dutch universities. There are pro's and con's, but it all differs by ambition. I had a '6' mentality as I always struggled with learning, but in contrast to some of the top performers in my classes, I didn't forget what little I learned. I've had to redo about 34% of all my university exams just to pass. Yet, my very last exam I was top of my class, whereas the people I started out with and had summa cum laude grades, failed out. The reason for me, was that I followed my passion, I had a drive to just persevere in the face of continuous failure, even when parents and teachers had given up already. Now, I work a top job, because of that combination of mentalities. As a manager there is some direct benefit from '6' mentality: - Much lower chance of people dropping out, improving predictability and manageability of teams. - Rested workers make less mistakes, increasing the amount of work that can be done due to less redo's and errors. - Workers making less mistakes, require less overhead, more time for me to focus on what is actually important, and easier delegation. - Doing less, kind of forces people to do the bare minimum, which in every task is the core of the task. This means a continuous focus on what matters, improving results even further. But these don't really work without a drive to continue in the face of adversity. What made me successful, was being able to deal with failures fast. Pivot, and move on. For me, it means I need to drive this ambition and drive in people to persevere and grow in their role as people, and guard that they don't over exert themselves.
Thanks for sharing. I work with a lot of managers and indeed…motivating a team while keeping things balanced…it’s not easy…well that’s leadership :)
Joining the zesjescultuur was the best thing I could have ever done for my mental health!! I used to be very perfectionistic which was fine when I could easily get 10s in primary school by just learning the materials which I LOVED doing, but in high school I quickly found out it was impossible to do all the homework for me since it was just too much. I tried though since that was the only way of studying I knew (just do everything), and had a burn-out. After that I learned how to study efficiently, found out what the most important information was and just studied that, not focusing on the details. This made me remember the concepts and general ideas better ánd longer (the things that actually matter in my opinion). And getting more sleep and rest actually improved my grades!!
I wanted to add to this: it depends heavily on the type of school how strong the 'zesjescultuur' is. If you'd go to an elite gymnasium (type of vwo school where they also teach latin and old greek) in a city like Leiden, you'd notice the students are a lot more focused on grades and 'nerdy' than if you'd go to a vmbo in a poorer part of Amsterdam, where kids even get bullied for getting normal or good grades. This is why I think this separation at the age of 12 is so bad, everyone deserves to be in an environment where their peers give them motivation to study, no matter how good they are at it
vmbo doesn't mean poorer
@@samboudarboe1776 did I say that?
I was at that gymnasium and I was bullied for my sixes and sevens (and sometimes fives because those bullies got to me and I couldn't focus). I went to HBO instead of university afterwards. Best choice of my life. I've no idea how my former classmates are doing now (it's been 20 years) but I imagine there could be some burnouts here and there.
@@samboudarboe1776 no I did not, I edited it right after I posted just to explain what a gymnasium is for foreigners who might not know 🙂
yeah exectly, in my opinion u cant compare an ''A'' with a 6 because a 6 can mean everything and in American high schools u just go with the average, a gymnasium (harder level) 6 isnt equal to a VMBO (bit easier level) 6
Dutch society is much more set up for everyone to succeed, instead of just the top 1%. Some people just aren't able to compete with the best and that's ok. We're all good and valuable as we are, can contribute to society and are not destined to a life of living paycheck to paycheck and being exploited by said 1%. That's to me what US society stands for: Massive inequality. And while the so called american dream promises everyone a path towards success, in the end those that come out on top do so at the expense of others.
I think you are very close to the core of the matter here. It's the anglo-saxon model of productivity, employers can pick the smartest students by there grades, so these students have to show off how smart they are in a continuous competition. In the Dutch/Rhineland model, we start with the kid and try to learn it as much as possible to get most productivity out of also the lesser talented. It's talent optimilization rather than talent selection.
Thanks for sharing this. Yeah...in the US, life can be great for the top 1-10%...it's a country of extremes
When I was in school I fully used the 6 culture, because I really didn't like school and didn't care much about my grades. But when I started working I really liked what I did and did the best I could. It really paid off and I basically always had a high paying job. So maybe it also really helps the kids that aren't great at learning in school but do really well learning on the job.
as a Dutch guy who also did some high school years in the US I have some different point of views. Exam questions in the US are more linear than they are in the Netherlands (which makes it easier). Furthermore, in general, American teachers are searching for the right answer whereby a Dutch teacher searches for mistakes. It makes reaching a (very) high score close to impossible. Finally, a Dutch teacher would see it as a personal failure when several students would make a 10 (a+). He/she didn't challenge the students enough.
Thanks for sharing your perspective! Haha...I was laughing when you said "American teachers are searching for the right answer whereby a Dutch teacher searches for mistakes." Which is true. Like, "Aw almost David, you'll do better next time! Here's a STAR for TRYING"
Your grade for this assignment: C-. Let's talk about research... 1) not all US high schools are alike; in fact, most are terrible in terms of education. Your stress about grades at high school suggests you went to one of the better ones. So, heavy researcher bias. 2) polling KZhead comments is the worst kind of sampling for establishing findings applicable to the general population. So, sample bias. 3) you did not research educational equavlency of US high school diplomas in Europe. These fair very poorly. (Don't even get me started on college/university degree equivalancy!). ... Now, despite your poor research, your opinions do highlight an aspect of Dutch culture, albeit very warped by your privileged perspective as a Master's degree student in... Amsterdam, which is not at all representative of the Netherlands. As I've said before... you need to learn the language and travel the country, especially the South and North East/North. You might find that the sixes culture is less prevalent outside Amsterdam.
Thanks for the kind words and the feedback =) I did not e a few times that not all US schools are alike...perhaps could've talked more about high school. The video was primarily about the zesjecultuur/sixes culture (good enough) mindset and not so much about the details into the education systems (that would be a lot of detail). I also lived in Maastricht
Also research-wise...I pulled together hundreds (if not thousands) of "Zesjescultuur/Sixes Culture" comments from KZhead, Reddit, and other news articles in a word document. And then analyzed them. And many of the comments have thousands of "upvotes" or "likes" which validates the comment. I couldn't find any academic study out there that has this type of data. If you do, let me know...I'd be curious to learn more
@hidavidwen Maastricht is more like Belgium than "Nederland"...
@hidavidwen DavId, I admire your efforts... you bring up interesting subjects... but... my personal bias... is that your privileged position puts you at a disadvantage when "reporting" these topics... learn the language (20 most-used words a day and you master 80% of spoken vocabulary in less than two months) and talk to poor people in the Netherlands, ie. people who need their "allowances" to just get by.
Im dutch and i want to add to this topic: this is logical if you look through an economic lens. It's the best return on investment. I remember when syudying for exams even the teachers said nobody in your career will ever look at your grades. Only which school your diploma is from. Reason: your grades reflect your effort in the moment. It tells nothing about your potential. Therefor the grades are useless to determine how much we want to pay you. We look at your work output quality/quantity. That is the amount of effort you put into your work inside the conpany and that has merit to think of what your salary should be
Very Dutch response (in a good way “best return in investment”) thanks!
Some schools have even starting ditching the traditional grading system altogether. My school for instance have changed to “study points”, where you get 1 study point per completed assignment
I’m really curious about you experiencing both of those cultures. Would the mix of both these cultures improve their success and mental happiness? And would that be a good way to create an even “better” population?
Interesting question! I think it’s always nice to have mixes…and see what works for you
For me personally, sixes were never really the goal, but the bare minimum I wanted to achieve. I'd be happy with a six, but anything higher would be preferred. Thankfully that helped me cover for the one failing grade I had, which was more than covered with the 7's and 8's on most of my exams!
Really interesting.
Thanks!
There is one more fun phenomenon that also provides for these students. It is the teacher who says, only teachers deserve a 10. "If you do everything that the assignment requires you will get an 8,5"
As a Dutch I agree with the sixes culture. I got in high school mainly sixes on the classes given which I disliked. Those I did like I worked harder for. This was at the VMBO. The classes I did like ensured me I wasn’t limited to one profile (in my time there were four: Agriculture, technical, economy and healthcare). The less important classes I dropped when I was able and focused, because I liked it, on the classes for all those profiles. After this I studied to work on a laboratory, graduated but disliked the work (profile: technical). After that I studied and became a nurse (profile healthcare). Now because I do like micro-organisms, I know how to prevent some infection hazards at work. In short, with the sixes mentality I was able to combine both my studies to do infection prevention, only because I dropped classes which I only need to follow for one to two years and were optional afterwards. If I really wanted to I could be in nearly all the classes but become less effective with my current job.
Thanks for sharing 🙏
As an addition, I'd like to add that often my experience with the type of questions I receive on an exam in University (currently following a MS in Medical Human Biology) are those where my professors value the reasoning behind my answers more than final answer itself. Ofcourse, you wouldn't get full points to a question if there's one or multiple correct answers which you didn't include, but if your reasoning shows adequate understanding of the subject it is also factored in the grading. In that sense a 'good' answer is one where your reasoning to reaching said conclusion is well constructed. As such, you could have incorrect but 'good' answers and vice versa too, which is just another factor at play behind what could be deemed as sufficient by means of a '6' grade. Ofcourse, the concept of teachers cannot be standardized, as every teacher/professor has their unique way of teaching, but I found this to be a more consistent criteria within my study/university, where I also encounter this 'zejescultuur' more often.
My late father was one of the best teachers I've ever known. He could inspire kids with 60% of my intellect to score 96% when I did 100% in exams. Even though I had no privileges and he was hard on me. One day, he told me that he preferred his "Cressida children" and explained they were the C candidates. A C never excites, but also don't disappoint. They pitch.
@11:27 well i guess it depends on the job but ive never had to show my diploma, let alone my grades at a job interview and still im doing quite well for myself....
i still talk about that one time i didnt study for a exam and got a 5.6 i was so happy
Hahaha I’m happy for you!